From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Dec 1 00:57:40 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:41 2005 Subject: Barely on-topic Message-ID: <01be1cf7$e3097420$e28ea6d1@the-general> >First, check if there's a fish stuck in your laptop. Second, have you >looked closely at the controller card to see if there is any obvious >melting of parts, or blackened spots? Check each component for excessive >heat (excessive meaning if you touch it and it instantly burns your >finger). Have you tried the hard drive in another machine? Be careful, >if the hard drive is at fault here you may end up frying fish with another >controller card. > I've found that the fish smell is from some capacitors on the controller. There's no sign of overheating, other than a few plastic labels (on the chips) are a bit curled on the ends. I really have no way of testing the HD, since it's one of those weird 26-pin type like the Zenith laptops used to use. The only other computer that I have that it may work in is an old WANG WLTC, and the drive in it is 10 MB, and made by JVC, where the one in the Tandy is an Alps. I think that the HD controller was one of the 1400's faults (other than the power supply). I've already worked on two 1400's with blown P/S's and HD controllers. What I've noticed is that the HD controller will quit, then the power supply will blow out (usually a microfuse). The 1400HD was basically just a 1400FD with a factory-installed HD upgrade kit. I currently have the floppy from the second 1400 in the one I'm trying to fix, but there's some stuff on the HD that I'd like to get off of it, but have no way of doing so. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Dec 1 01:00:52 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:43 2005 Subject: Barely on-topic Message-ID: <01be1cf8$55850280$e28ea6d1@the-general> >Hmm.. This should be easy. Install /bin/cat. The cat, as usual, will eat >the fish. > Haven't tried that yet, but the /bin/cat/ folder is on the unaccessable HD... >Seriously, something is overheating. If you can get to the board with it >in the machine, can you detect any semiconductor that's too hot. Where >does the smell seem to be coming from - the HD controller, the machine's >PSU, or where? > I'm figuring that the smell is coming from the HD controller board, getting sucked through the P/S's tiny 1" fan, and blown out the top of the computer. The HD controller is plugged in right next to the P/S. I think one of the chips on the HD controller blew, because it was one of the common ailments of the 1400. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Dec 1 01:07:42 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:45 2005 Subject: Sim VGA? Message-ID: <01be1cf9$4a1b7360$e28ea6d1@the-general> >> >> Hi! >> I know that there's a program to make a Hercules Mono monitor emulate a CGA, >> but is there a program that will allow a CGA emulate an EGA or VGA? > >That's rather like asking if a PC/XT can emulate a 386. Well I don't see why some sort of software could make a CGA emulate a VGA. Or a video card that would be VGA, but drive a CGA monitor, since the video card in my Pentium will drive a composite Apple monitor at 640x480 16.million colors. I basically want to get better graphics from the programs that I use on my laptops (most are CGA). I'm usually stuck in text mode, 2-color CGA, but even EGA would be better, and getting a new video card and monitor just isn't an option. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Dec 2 00:41:21 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:45 2005 Subject: SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981130202626.00717194@207.98.129.100> from "Neil B. Sheldon Sr" at Nov 30, 98 08:26:26 pm Message-ID: <199812010641.WAA27378@saul3.u.washington.edu> Hi, I'm the moderator of the CLASSICCMP list. In order to subscribe, you need to send a message to listproc@u.washington.edu You need not put in a subject, but this line must be in the message: subscribe classiccmp ______ Except instead of underlines, write your name, like this: subscribe classiccmp Abraham Lincoln Make sure there's no signature at the end of the message -- only the command should be there. You'll get a confirmation message from the software; reply to that, and you're subscribed! The account you use to subscribe is the one that the software will send messages to. -- Derek From marvin at rain.org Tue Dec 1 00:54:31 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:48 2005 Subject: OT: Halloween Papers References: <01be1cf9$4a1b7360$e28ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <366392A7.E1C8AB19@rain.org> Just ran across this subject, and found it rather interesting for a lot of reasons. MS bashing aside, it provides an interesting look at what goes into marketing strategies. From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Dec 2 00:57:52 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:48 2005 Subject: SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP In-Reply-To: <199812010641.WAA27378@saul3.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Nov 30, 98 10:41:21 pm Message-ID: <199812010657.WAA28987@saul3.u.washington.edu> Oops... that was supposed to go to the original sender, not the list. Didn't I see something about how it's possible to "subscribe" by sending mail to the list itself (rather than the list processor), except that that isn't the same as a normal subscription? If someone could clue me in, I'd be very grateful. -- Derek From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Dec 1 00:01:02 1998 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:48 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video Message-ID: <012a01be1cf0$079533e0$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: R. Stricklin (kjaeros) To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, 1 December 1998 16:00 Subject: Re: DG Aviion video >The green connect is labelled "G/MONO" so I'd be inclined to agree with >you. Mine are just labelled "R" "G" and "B" >I at least knew that much. (: I was given a fat wodge of QIC tapes and >DG/UX 5.4R3 at least was included as well as some older versions and >possibly one newer. Did better than me, I just got the bare boxes, no mice, no monitors, no keyboards, no docs. >Not surprising; they're an Intel/NT shop now for the most part. q: How >boring. How right! >> is the same connector as on a Sun, but not sure if the Sun mouse would >> work or not, and I don't have one to try. > >Outwardly they are identical. Both are Mouse Systems optical mice >(although the DG mouse doesn't say so). I dismantled the DG mouse and a >spare Sun type-4 mouse to make sure, but the electronics and signalaling >are wildly different. From cord conductor-count alone, I'd say the DG >mouse is quadrature and the Sun mouse is serial. Erk. That's going to make life difficult. Sun mice are $$ but at least you can get them. Any ideas where one would obtain a couple of the appropriate rodentia? >It is the same connector as on a Sun mouse, though. Trap for the unwary I suppose. Thanks for the info. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax) From yowza at yowza.com Tue Dec 1 00:57:19 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP In-Reply-To: <199812010641.WAA27378@saul3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, D. Peschel wrote: > I'm the moderator of the CLASSICCMP list. Hey, Derek, there's a big different between being a list *moderator* and list *maintainer*. Which is it? (And, BTW, thanks for saving the list if it's the latter :-) And what's the story with the old ClassicCmp website? I've never seen it myself. -- Doug From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Tue Dec 1 00:16:16 1998 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: PS/1 model Message-ID: <001e01be1cf2$1b3257a0$d73bc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Max Eskin wrote: >I saw an odd machine in a thrift store today, a machine labelled a PS/1, but it >looked nothing like the PS/1 valuepoints, or any other PC I've ever seen. It >looked like a cross between a PCjr and a soap dish. One 3.5" floppy drive, huge >ugly vents and IBM logo on the front, on the back are ports for mouse, >keyboard, VGA, 2400 bps modem, and parallel printer. It also has a little fan >and some sort of slot cover that fell out. Where is the power switch? Where >does the power connect to? That's the original PS/1, a 286 with an almost totally closed architecture. Needs the special monitor to give it power. I happened to pick up a lone monitor like this last week. Pity I'm in Australia though. I've only seen a couple of these around here in the last few years. Hans Olminkhof From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Dec 1 02:59:19 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Dec 1, 98 00:57:19 am Message-ID: <199812010859.AAA15566@saul3.u.washington.edu> > Hey, Derek, there's a big different between being a list *moderator* and > list *maintainer*. Which is it? (And, BTW, thanks for saving the list if > it's the latter :-) Oh, such gratitude. You don't want me to moderate the list, just maintain it? Hmph. Anyway, I'm currently the list owner. That means that the listproc software lets me do useful things that normal people can't do. (I think there's one other level above me -- list manager -- and I think I'm not allowed to change certain things. For example, unless I'm wrong, we have alternate addresses disabled, so you can't subscribe from one address and have messages sent to another. And I don't think I can change that.) The main benefit of my role is that the UW is now appeased, because they don't have to run the list any more... I get to do that. :) But you're right; the list is currently set to "unmoderated". I could set it to "moderated" if everybody REALLY wants, and then messages would take longer to go through! Or we could just stay on topic voluntarily. :) > And what's the story with the old ClassicCmp website? I've never seen it > myself. I'm trying to extract the CD from Bill Whitson. Unfortunately, his car broke down last week, so it hasn't happened yet. (More importantly, I don't have the Apple //e I was gonna get from him.) Although he told me, "I hate cars.", we just had a freak accident here in which someone shot a bus driver and the bus toppled over the side of a bridge, bounced off an apartment building, and crunched into the ground. So cars are looking pretty good right now. :) -- Derek From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Dec 1 04:07:38 1998 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP In-Reply-To: <199812010859.AAA15566@saul3.u.washington.edu> References: from "Doug Yowza" at Dec 1, 98 00:57:19 am Message-ID: <199812010908.JAA08590@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > Unfortunately, his car broke > down last week, so it hasn't happened yet. (More importantly, I don't have > the Apple //e I was gonna get from him.) Although he told me, "I hate cars.", > we just had a freak accident here in which someone shot a bus driver and the > bus toppled over the side of a bridge, bounced off an apartment building, and > crunched into the ground. So cars are looking pretty good right now. :) Just for my couriosity, where do you live ? Kongo, Africa ? ("this is a loded grenade - drive me to Rome !" ?) Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Dec 1 03:13:19 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP In-Reply-To: <199812010908.JAA08590@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 1, 98 10:08:38 am Message-ID: <199812010913.BAA07404@saul3.u.washington.edu> > Just for my couriosity, where do you live ? Kongo, Africa ? > ("this is a loded grenade - drive me to Rome !" ?) No, I live in Seattle, Washington, USA! (I go to the same school that Bill Whitson -- the previous moderator -- worked for.) -- Derek From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Tue Dec 1 03:27:10 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: networking newbie Message-ID: >> A friend of mine at a large company (whose initials are International >> Business Machine, but you didn't hear that from me 8-) had to route traffic >> between Token Ring and Ethernet. NT didn't work (no surprise there), Hmm, I had exactly the same trouble. Worked fine on a linux machine routing between our company token ring and a couple of SGI Origin servers on 100 meg ethernet, but NT wasn't having any of it. Unfortunately I seem to be the only person here who has any real Unix skills, so Linux was out of the question for the router. I ended up writing a Java application to relay socket connections on the NT machine that sat between the ethernet and token ring, so at least HTTP and Telnet would work - FTP had to be done as a two-stage process... cheers Jules >(sorry for OT) From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Dec 1 05:08:51 1998 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP In-Reply-To: <199812010913.BAA07404@saul3.u.washington.edu> References: <199812010908.JAA08590@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 1, 98 10:08:38 am Message-ID: <199812011009.KAA20057@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Date sent: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 01:13:19 -0800 (PST) Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu From: "D. Peschel" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP > > Just for my couriosity, where do you live ? Kongo, Africa ? > > ("this is a loded grenade - drive me to Rome !" ?) > > No, I live in Seattle, Washington, USA! (I go to the same school that Bill > Whitson -- the previous moderator -- worked for.) I never heared of such a thing over here. Shooting a bus driver ? The last time I remember was I think 1972 at the Munich Olypics, at the masacre on the airport (you may remember the terrorist attack) - and of course similar things had hapend in the Bosinan war. But in an ordinary city ? And mestupidone belived Seattle to be a 'regular' safe place. (No, don't lets start the weapon thread again :) Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Tue Dec 1 03:45:28 1998 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: Recent Finds & Thoughts Message-ID: <802566CD.003A653A.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> Possibly. But I distinctly recall that when we recorded tapes for sale >> using the tape deck from my Sanyo stereo (not on a PET BTW - this was a BBC >> micro) we found that Dolby noise reduction had to be disabled for it to >> work... > > Did you try recroding with Dolby and then replaying on a machine with > Dolby noise reduction (turned on), or replaying on the normal cheap > cassette recorder that you use with computers? If the former, then I am > not suprised it didn't work - the frequency response would have been > rather odd. The latter should have worked, though. We didn't try recording with Dolby and playing back without. I'd be very surprised if that worked (did you mean it that way round). I can't remember if we recorded with and played back with - I imagine that would work - but we definitely couldn't get it to work recording without and playing back with, although this actually works quite well for music. > I would be suprised if you couldn't make a CD that could be loaded. I > can't try it because I have no way of writing to a CD. I never meant to imply that you couldn't make a CD that could be loaded. What I meant was you probably have to be more sophisticated than old cassette -> digitised audio -> audio CD. I'd recommend old cassette -> signal restoration -> digital signal (0s and 1s sampled at some highish speed) -> possibly prefilter to pre-emptively undo the CD player's output filter -> digitised audio -> audio CD. For PET (and family) tapes a C2N would probably make a good cassette machine for playing it initially, since it does some of the signal restoration itself. Philip. From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Dec 1 05:19:51 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP In-Reply-To: <199812011009.KAA20057@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 1, 98 11:09:51 am Message-ID: <199812011119.DAA18609@saul7.u.washington.edu> > I never heared of such a thing over here. Shooting a bus driver ? > The last time I remember was I think 1972 at the Munich Olypics, > at the masacre on the airport (you may remember the terrorist > attack) - and of course similar things had hapend in the Bosinan > war. But in an ordinary city ? And mestupidone belived Seattle > to be a 'regular' safe place. I don't think this sort of thing has happened here in decades. Seattle is still very safe, though it's slowly becoming more like a "real" big city, instead of the charming small city it used to be, unfortunately. Your mail server may be acting up again (I got some sort of error message, which I think I erased). -- Derek From pechter at pechter.dyn.ml.org Tue Dec 1 06:58:25 1998 From: pechter at pechter.dyn.ml.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: VAX collectors attention In-Reply-To: <199812010404.AA05766@world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Nov 30, 98 11:04:46 pm" Message-ID: <199812011258.HAA00408@pechter.dyn.ml.org> > < > (Oh and an HSC50 whatever the heck that is!) > < > < Hierarchical Storage Controller. > < Waist high filing cabinet sized box, HEAVY too. > < Basically, it's a PDP8 I think, running a little o/s called CRONIC > > PDP11, used the T-11 chip. NOT PDP-8. > > I believe CRONIC was an application (control program) and ran under a > truncated version of RT-11. > > Allison If so, it wasn't what we were told in Field Service. I'm not too sure about CRONIC being an application. I heard rumors of it being the entire HSC OS and rumors of the use of MicroPower Pascal. Bill From pechter at pechter.dyn.ml.org Tue Dec 1 07:00:35 1998 From: pechter at pechter.dyn.ml.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: VAX collectors attention In-Reply-To: <981130224057.2de00192@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at "Nov 30, 98 10:40:57 pm" Message-ID: <199812011300.IAA00429@pechter.dyn.ml.org> > >I've got an 8530 and it's console here. It's a Pro380 IIRC. > >It's front panel is marked Vaxconsole, but it has Pro380 on it somewhere > >else > >I think.... I'll have a look... > > At least on the North American models, there's a UL/CSA sticker near > the power jack with the model designation (i.e. "PC380-AA"). > > It certainly could've been a Pro 350 that originally shipped with the > Venus. The ones I've seen are 380's, but I don't know if they're > original or not. Since *the* definitive RT-11 Pro expert is on this > list, I'm certain we'll get a good answer soon :-) > > As long as we're on the topic, anyone have a Ethernet card for the > Pro that they'd like to sell? I'm willing to pay CA$H! (The goal > is to put Alan Baldwin's TCP/IP for RT-11 on a Pro and run a web server.) > My mind slipped. The Pro350 was used on the 85xx. The Venus (8650) used a special board with a T-11 chip and an RL controller... As far as the Pro ethernet... I'd kill for one too. Bill From gram at cnct.com Tue Dec 1 07:49:25 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: OT: Halloween Papers References: <01be1cf9$4a1b7360$e28ea6d1@the-general> <366392A7.E1C8AB19@rain.org> Message-ID: <3663F3E5.24D62E69@cnct.com> Marvin wrote: > > Just ran across this subject, and found it rather interesting for a lot of > reasons. MS bashing aside, it provides an interesting look at what goes > into marketing strategies. > > Yes, Eric did a good job on those. (Funny how you can know somebody for years, hanging out together at science fiction conventions and discussing libertarian political theory, then you see his name on the cover of _The New Hacker's Dictionary_ and realise that he's not only a bigger computer geek than you are, but he's famous for it). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From mbg at world.std.com Tue Dec 1 08:20:30 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: VAX collectors attention Message-ID: <199812011420.AA23302@world.std.com> >As far as the Pro ethernet... I'd kill for one too. The part you need is the DECNA... I might just have one (maybe two). I'll have to check... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From gram at cnct.com Tue Dec 1 08:25:52 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: networking newbie References: Message-ID: <3663FC70.D86141F2@cnct.com> Julian Richardson wrote: > > >> A friend of mine at a large company (whose initials are International > >> Business Machine, but you didn't hear that from me 8-) had to route traffic > >> between Token Ring and Ethernet. NT didn't work (no surprise there), > > Hmm, I had exactly the same trouble. Worked fine on a linux machine > routing between our company token ring and a couple of SGI Origin > servers on 100 meg ethernet, but NT wasn't having any of it. > Unfortunately I seem to be the only person here who has any real Unix > skills, so Linux was out of the question for the router. I ended up > writing a Java application to relay socket connections on the NT machine > that sat between the ethernet and token ring, so at least HTTP and > Telnet would work - FTP had to be done as a two-stage process... Now let me get this straight. You say Linux worked -- that implies that it was in place at one point, then NT was put in there and that NT didn't work. Aside from the opportunity to make yourself indispensable by being the only one with Unix skills (not that a dedicated Linux server needs much maintenance -- my Samba server has rebooted three times in four years due to power outages -- it's working, I don't mess with it except to edit files for mounting NFS filesystems and sharing them to my wife's Windows boxen) (by the way, who set up the Linux router?), you then wrote a _Java_ program to do what should be handled by something two or three layers down? Be ashamed. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From Marty at itgonline.com Tue Dec 1 08:23:27 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet Series II Message-ID: <1998Dec01.092201.1767.164934@smtp.itgonline.com> I have repaired literally hundreds of HP II's and HP III's over the past 10 years. The paper feed problem you mention is a piece of cake to repair (replace) and the parts are readily available at a very low price. Following are the parts you need: HP P/N RG1-0931-060CN FEED ROLLER ASSEMBLY HP P/N RF1-1145-020CN SEPARATION PAD SOURCES FOR ABOVE PARTS: Atlantis 1-800-733-9155 (Norcross, GA) Impact Sales 1-800-280-4521 (Madison, WI- ask for Don) PC Service Source 1-800-727-2787 (Dallas, TX) Printer Works 1-800-235-6116 (Hayward, CA) I will supply you with tech support to replace these parts. Email me: marty@itgonline.com You will need to remove the top cover, front support plate and dc power supply. Removal of the high voltage power supply is recommended to facilitate access to the left screw holding the feed roller assembly but you can snake a screwdriver in without a problem. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: HP Laserjet Series II Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 11/30/98 11:50 PM On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > This is a couple of months off topic,but I'll post it anyway. At my school, > there are a couple dozen Laserjet Series IIs. I've been trying to install > four into one room, and for some reason almost every single one claims a paper > jam right as soon as I tell it to print ( a self test, for example). The paper > hardly gets out of the tray, it's generally just starting to get past the Ahhh, yes.. this one I know well. The company whose time clock I punch has about three dozen of these old guys in a store room.. they all have the same problem.. and it is: the very front set of rollers (the pick-and-feed rollers) over the paper tray have become hardened and non-gummy with age. The fix is: replace the rollers. The problem is: no rollers available. The solution: give them up for adoption, and when nobody wants them... well, you know the rest. One could kludge together something to go around the old rollers, but the sveral things I tried just didn't perform reliably, mainly causing double and/or multiple feeds... They they brough me a brand-new modern HP 4L and I quit being frustrated by the old one. Cheers John ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists4.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Nov30.235024.1767.81114; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:50:25 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id UAA07884; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:48:08 -0800 Received: from mxu4.u.washington.edu (mxu4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id UAA28442 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:48:00 -0800 Received: from netcom11.netcom.com (jpl15@netcom11.netcom.com [192.100.81.121]) by mxu4.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id UAA21 188 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:47:59 -0800 Received: (from jpl15@localhost) by netcom11.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id UAA24075; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:42:49 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:42:49 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: John Lawson To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: HP Laserjet Series II In-Reply-To: <98113019113300.00619@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Tue Dec 1 08:38:55 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: networking newbie Message-ID: >> Now let me get this straight. You say Linux worked -- that implies >> that it was in place at one point, then NT was put in there and that >> NT didn't work. Ah, but there's the problem. NT - about a day to get set up and working (or not at all in this case!). Needs lots of hardware. Costs lots. Linux - about an hour to set up, runs on old Pentium 60's (yes, I know it runs fast even on 486 machines, but in this case a P60 was all that was around and free). Doesn't cost anything. Management - "oh, that's quite impressive. But we don't know anything about Unix, but do know NT, so we have to stick with that". Not that I'm rather stressed out at the way the computing industry blindly follows the big players round (sarcasm mode is on here, folks!) - but I run up against this brick wall time after time. People high up in a company see something as a risk unless they have to invest lots of time and money in puchasing it and supporting it - they just don't seem to feel safe if the product in question is low-cost (or free!) and runs itself without any trouble, even if such "features" are rammed down their throats. It's a very scary industry. >> you then wrote a _Java_ program to do >> what should be handled by something two or three layers down? yup, took about 30 minutes too. I got fed up with NT wanting to reboot every ten minutes, the PC taking five minutes to boot, the 32x-speed-all-the-bells-and-whistles CDROM drive taking a minute to spin up to speed before I could access it to install software... I'm sure most of you have been there! cheers Jules > From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au Tue Dec 1 08:43:25 1998 From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: VAX collectors attention Message-ID: <01be1d38$f38f9540$0100005a@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Bill Pechter To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, 2 December 1998 0:32 Subject: Re: VAX collectors attention >> At least on the North American models, there's a UL/CSA sticker near >> the power jack with the model designation (i.e. "PC380-AA"). Yup. I just looked. It's a 380. Cheers Geoff Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Dec 1 10:19:16 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet Series II In-Reply-To: <1998Dec01.092201.1767.164934@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Marty wrote: > I have repaired literally hundreds of HP II's and HP III's over the > past 10 years. The paper feed problem you mention is a piece of cake > to repair (replace) and the parts are readily available at a very low > price. Following are the parts you need: > > HP P/N RG1-0931-060CN FEED ROLLER ASSEMBLY > > HP P/N RF1-1145-020CN SEPARATION PAD > > SOURCES FOR ABOVE PARTS: > > Atlantis 1-800-733-9155 (Norcross, GA) > > Impact Sales 1-800-280-4521 (Madison, WI- ask for Don) > > PC Service Source 1-800-727-2787 (Dallas, TX) > > Printer Works 1-800-235-6116 (Hayward, CA) Ya know.. this is what I get for even *dealing* with our MIS (Mostly Incompetent Shi*theads) dept... you'd think after 10 years with the same company I'd learn... I should have researched the roller prob myself.... Anyway... I'm going to offer to take all those 'dead' HP IIs off the company's hands, and then *fix* the damn things, and **sell** them... or trade them for Stuff... the last time they dumpstered a whole storeroom I got tons of swappable Stuff.. woo hoo! I love Surplus!! Thanks VeryVery much for the roller and parts supplier info.. Cheers John From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com Tue Dec 1 10:30:19 1998 From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: Now VERY *OT* (hit delete now): RE: networking newbie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Julian Richardson wrote: > NT - about a day to get set up and working (or not at all in this > case!). Needs lots of hardware. Costs lots. Answers: They're paying me to sit there and work on the systems. I get to play with even *more* hardware, and I'm even able to request *specifically* what I want under the umbrella that it has to be "NT-Compatible". And I'm not paying for any of it, so who gives a rat's ass if some corporate blow-hard has his head so far in his rectum that he wants to run NT. Besides, NT is a character builder like losing a limb to frostbite or having your house burn down. > Linux - about an hour to set up, runs on old Pentium 60's (yes, I know > it runs fast even on 486 machines, but in this case a P60 was all that > was around and free). Doesn't cost anything. It's all relative. Linux on a 486 seems much faster on a 486 than Windows 95, for sure. But it's not fast compared to FreeBSD on a PII 450 with 256megs of ram. I tend a flock that has several Linux machines, running as mission-critical http/ftp/mail/proxy servers on fast PII machines with lots of ram. They kick some serious ass. As [often more] stable, fast, and full featured as the Solaris and SCO machines we have running. And much less expensive, yes. In fact, I'm SSH'd into one right now to type this reply... > Management - "oh, that's quite impressive. But we don't know anything > about Unix, but do know NT, so we have to stick with that". I am *literally* the only person in my company who can do a thing in Unix besides get a directory listing. Any time there's so much as a hiccup in the system, I get called. On vacations, in the middle of the night, on the toilet; no rest for the indespensible. And since I'm not a cutthroat, I can't walk in to the boss and demand "2K a year or I walk..." Basically, being indispensible sucks unless you've got the balls to really use it to your advantage. > itself without any trouble, even if such "features" are rammed down > their throats. It's a very scary industry. I'm doing some consulting work for a local community college as a favor to a buddy of mine who's a chemistry prof there, virtually for free (they have me on the Elbonian payscale, like $9 an hour, aka beer money) and I am having a great time arguing with their IS department over putting either a Linux or FreeBSD box up as the server for a lab-verification system. They claimed that "Unix was not supported on the campus" and that "the only Unix system anywhere around was too expensive to have maintained." "Besides," they told me, "NT is so much more stable and secure." My natural follow up question: "What system runs Unix?" "The administration system with staff payroll and all student records and grades." > up to speed before I could access it to install software... I'm sure > most of you have been there! Long reboots are the bane of the users, not mine. And again, I get paid for being there so if they want to run up my timecard with NT and PC's, it their prerogitive. If I can't get something to work right, I grab my company credit card and call Microsoft's tech support at $75 a hit. If they tell me something can't be done with NT, I document it and submit a workaround solution to management, which more often than not involves wiping NT and installing a free Unix... Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Tue Dec 1 10:47:19 1998 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: Barely on-topic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > > > comes up), then stops, and starts emitting a fish-like smell. I pull the > > controller entirely, and it works fine (with no fish smell). > > > > Any suggestions (other than getting one from RadioShack)? > > > This one's easy to fix: > > 1) open the case > 2) put on your anti-static wrist strap > 3) remove the trout > 4) re-assemble the case It may not be a fish at all. Missing any underwear or socks? It could also be a leftover Tuna salad on rye. -- David Wollmann DST / DST Data Conversion http://www.ibmhelp.com/ ICQ: 10742063 AIM: FathomS36 From amirault at epix.net Tue Dec 1 11:05:45 1998 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet Series II References: <98113019113300.00619@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <366421E9.9E3184DC@epix.net> Max, How old are the machines? When is the last time they were CLEANED? I am no genius but the idea of CLEANING the rollers is, to me, a good one. Hope this suggustion helps you. John Amirault Max Eskin wrote: > This is a couple of months off topic,but I'll post it anyway. At my school, > there are a couple dozen Laserjet Series IIs. I've been trying to install > four into one room, and for some reason almost every single one claims a paper > jam right as soon as I tell it to print ( a self test, for example). The paper > hardly gets out of the tray, it's generally just starting to get past the > roller that pulls it in when the printer returns an error. Sometimes it does > this, sometimes it doesn't. Any ideas? > > Thanks From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Dec 1 13:10:02 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: FSOT: HP 9815 (aka 9000 216) Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981201131002.2effdb5e@intellistar.net> Hi, I need to clean up some of the excess around here before Christmas so I'm offering a HP 9816 computer for sale or trade for the best offer. I have another and need to get this one out of the way. The 9816 is the smallest of the HP 9000 series 200 computers and has a 68000 CPU. It runs BASIC, HPL and/or Pascal. This one works fine but is missing the top cover and some of the keytops for the keyboard. The switchs are intact so tops can robbed from another HP keyboard and simply plugged in. It does include the original small keyboard. These keyboards are rare since most users bought the bigger HP 98203 keybaord. For more information, look at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/hp9000.htm". Joe From marvin at rain.org Tue Dec 1 11:17:08 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: networking newbie References: Message-ID: <36642494.24942647@rain.org> Julian Richardson wrote: > > Not that I'm rather stressed out at the way the computing industry > blindly follows the big players round (sarcasm mode is on here, folks!) > - but I run up against this brick wall time after time. People high up > in a company see something as a risk unless they have to invest lots of > time and money in puchasing it and supporting it - they just don't seem > to feel safe if the product in question is low-cost (or free!) and runs > itself without any trouble, even if such "features" are rammed down > their throats. It's a very scary industry. The Halloween Papers showed one of the strategies was to attack the process rather than the implementation; sounds like that is what you are up against. And on the same topic, didn't DECUS provide free (or low cost) software applications? Did the same mentality apply to that, or did the letters "DEC" tend to give more credibility to that software? From Marty at itgonline.com Tue Dec 1 11:23:20 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet Series II Message-ID: <1998Dec01.122149.1767.165060@smtp.itgonline.com> A word of caution on replacing parts on these SX printers: when you reseat the connector for the main motor to the DC Power Supply, make certain the snap connector 'snaps' and that it isn't doesn't feel 'mushy' or you may discover you have a false main motor error (error code 54 I believe) after having buttoned up the printer. Reseat the connector at least twice. Before replacing the top cover power it up, there are no interlocks involved and you needn't have the control panel attached to run an engine test. On the left or right side (I forget which side) bottom of the HP II you will see a hole about 1/8" in diameter. If you press the rubber membrane covered microswitch inside the hole the engine test will run and print a sheet with finely spaced parallel lines running longitudinally on the copy. This will verify the main motor connector was reseated properly and that the feed roller was replaced properly. On an SX (HP II, III, IID and IIID) engine always reseat these snap connectors prior to replacing parts such as the laser scanner (reseat both at the scanner and dc controller, and all sensors at the dc controller. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: HP Laserjet Series II Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 12/1/98 11:22 AM On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Marty wrote: > I have repaired literally hundreds of HP II's and HP III's over the > past 10 years. The paper feed problem you mention is a piece of cake > to repair (replace) and the parts are readily available at a very low > price. Following are the parts you need: > > HP P/N RG1-0931-060CN FEED ROLLER ASSEMBLY > > HP P/N RF1-1145-020CN SEPARATION PAD > > SOURCES FOR ABOVE PARTS: > > Atlantis 1-800-733-9155 (Norcross, GA) > > Impact Sales 1-800-280-4521 (Madison, WI- ask for Don) > > PC Service Source 1-800-727-2787 (Dallas, TX) > > Printer Works 1-800-235-6116 (Hayward, CA) Ya know.. this is what I get for even *dealing* with our MIS (Mostly Incompetent Shi*theads) dept... you'd think after 10 years with the same company I'd learn... I should have researched the roller prob myself.... Anyway... I'm going to offer to take all those 'dead' HP IIs off the company's hands, and then *fix* the damn things, and **sell** them... or trade them for Stuff... the last time they dumpstered a whole storeroom I got tons of swappable Stuff.. woo hoo! I love Surplus!! Thanks VeryVery much for the roller and parts supplier info.. Cheers John ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Dec01.112204.1767.81227; Tue, 01 Dec 1998 11:22:05 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id IAA22869; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 08:19:41 -0800 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id IAA29406 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 08:19:26 -0800 Received: from netcom4.netcom.com (jpl15@netcom4.netcom.com [192.100.81.107]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id IAA17 482 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 08:19:23 -0800 Received: (from jpl15@localhost) by netcom4.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id IAA12239; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 08:19:16 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 08:19:16 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: John Lawson To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: HP Laserjet Series II In-Reply-To: <1998Dec01.092201.1767.164934@smtp.itgonline.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Dec 1 11:44:30 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:50 2005 Subject: Decus (was Re: networking newbie Message-ID: <981201124430.2de00235@trailing-edge.com> >And on the same topic, didn't DECUS provide free (or low cost) software >applications? Did the same mentality apply to that, or did the letters "DEC" >tend to give more credibility to that software? DECUS distributes (and has distributed) software that others wrote and put into the public domain. *Very* roughly speaking, DECUS-distributed software can be split into two groups: 1. Software that DEC employees wrote on DEC time, and which DEC put into the public domain so that DECUS could distribute it. BLISS-32 is a recent example. Often these are tools that were used internally to DEC for development purposes, which they don't want to turn into commercially supported products, but they recognize the great usefulness of these tools. 2. Software that random ordinary users wrote and gave to DECUS to distribute. Keep in mind that "random ordinary users" in the 1960's or 1970's often means something very different than it does today. Also, DECUS is a different organization today than it was 10 or 20 or 30 years ago. You might want to browse through the VMS-oriented DECUS submissions at http://www.decus.org/ , or the PDP-11 oriented DECUS submissions at http://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/decus/ and view the wide range of stuff available, and the wide range of sources that it comes from! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From Marty at itgonline.com Tue Dec 1 11:55:57 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet Series II Message-ID: <1998Dec01.122913.1767.165073@smtp.itgonline.com> Cleaning is an admirable thing to do but don't use alcohol. Use distilled water and a lint free cloth. Moreover, on an SX based printer (the HP II was introduced in 1987 I believe) cleaning the feed roller and separation pad may do the trick but I doubt it. The feed roller becomes glazed and hard and usually rubber restorer won't help. In most cases it turns out to be a glazed roller and/or a sticky clutch which is located on the end of the feed roller. I used to rebuild the clutches on these in the field (it is a 20 minute job at best, you need to disassemble the clutch, clean out the old contaminated lubriplate from the clutch spring, then reapply lubriplate and make certain you align the feed roller with the clutch cam) but these whole unit replacements are so cheap nowadays I wouldn't bother. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: HP Laserjet Series II Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 12/1/98 12:05 PM Max, How old are the machines? When is the last time they were CLEANED? I am no genius but the idea of CLEANING the rollers is, to me, a good one. Hope this suggustion helps you. John Amirault Max Eskin wrote: > This is a couple of months off topic,but I'll post it anyway. At my school, > there are a couple dozen Laserjet Series IIs. I've been trying to install > four into one room, and for some reason almost every single one claims a paper > jam right as soon as I tell it to print ( a self test, for example). The paper > hardly gets out of the tray, it's generally just starting to get past the > roller that pulls it in when the printer returns an error. Sometimes it does > this, sometimes it doesn't. Any ideas? > > Thanks ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists5.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Dec01.120520.1767.81238; Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:05:20 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id JAA03937; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:03:05 -0800 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id JAA30614 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:02:52 -0800 Received: from lima.epix.net (lima.epix.net [199.224.64.56]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id JAA23 476 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:02:51 -0800 Received: from epix.net (mtrs-244ppp230.epix.net [205.238.244.230]) by lima.epix.net (8.9.0/8.9.0/1998093001/Philippe Levan) with ESMTP id MAA16564 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:02:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <366421E9.9E3184DC@epix.net> Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:05:45 -0500 Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: John Amirault To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: HP Laserjet Series II References: <98113019113300.00619@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: "John Amirault" (Unverified) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 1 12:08:57 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet Series II In-Reply-To: <1998Dec01.092201.1767.164934@smtp.itgonline.com> Message-ID: PrinterWorks (Hayward, CA) has (or HAD? could anything that good not have been discontinued?) "catalogs" for the CX and SX series laser printers. Besides some basic discussion, they have exploded views and part number identification. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From Marty at itgonline.com Tue Dec 1 12:24:46 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet Series II Message-ID: <1998Dec01.132417.1767.165105@smtp.itgonline.com> Strange but true: the CX engine predated the SX engine by several years yet Printer Works didn't produce a CX catalog until several years after their SX catalog. Yes the SX catalog is fantastic. The SX catalog has exploded views and covers every flavor of SX printer from an HP to Canon (that actually makes the engine) to Singer and Apple (Laserwriter II series), etc. The main difference between models being the I/O Formatter board. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: HP Laserjet Series II Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 12/1/98 1:12 PM PrinterWorks (Hayward, CA) has (or HAD? could anything that good not have been discontinued?) "catalogs" for the CX and SX series laser printers. Besides some basic discussion, they have exploded views and part number identification. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists5.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Dec01.131218.1767.81274; Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:12:18 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id KAA07990; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:10:08 -0800 Received: from mxu3.u.washington.edu (mxu3.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.7]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id KAA17402 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:08:58 -0800 Received: from lanshark.lanminds.com (lanshark-fas1.lanminds.com [208.25.68.5]) by mxu3.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id KAA27 721 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:08:58 -0800 Received: from lana (lana [140.174.208.211]) by lanshark.lanminds.com (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA25235 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:08:57 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:08:57 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: HP Laserjet Series II In-Reply-To: <1998Dec01.092201.1767.164934@smtp.itgonline.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: cisin@lana X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Dec 1 13:22:29 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: Now VERY *OT* (hit delete now): RE: networking newbie In-Reply-To: (message from Aaron Christopher Finney on Tue, 1 Dec 1998 08:30:19 References: Message-ID: <19981201192229.14128.qmail@brouhaha.com> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > And since I'm not a cutthroat, I > can't walk in to the boss and demand "2K a year or I walk..." I'll gladly offer you a job at 2K a year maintaining my Linux and FreeBSD systems. I do it myself now, but it takes more of my time than I'd like (between 16 and 32 hours a month). :-) From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Dec 1 13:18:56 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet Series II In-Reply-To: John Amirault's message of Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:05:45 -0500 References: <98113019113300.00619@localhost.localdomain> <366421E9.9E3184DC@epix.net> Message-ID: <199812011918.LAA28576@daemonweed.reanimators.org> John Amirault wrote: > How old are the machines? When is the last time they were CLEANED? I am no > genius but the idea of CLEANING the rollers is, to me, a good one. Hope this > suggustion helps you. Cleaning helps -- if the rollers have picked up dirt it will make it harder for them to pick up paper. But the fundamental problem is that rubber ages and gets hard. Once upon a time (mid-1980s) some of the HP CEs used to carry an aromatic fluid they called "Fedron" which was good for restoring the gumminess of hard rubber rollers. I saw them use it on 2601 (Diablo 630) platen rollers and the little roller in the 2619 chain printer (a Dataproducts something) that drives one of the paper-jam detectors (roller not turning => paper not moving => paper jam, and when this one got hard enough that the paper just slid over it without turning it you got one frustrated computer operator). Is this stuff still available, or did it get banned because it's bad for the ozone layer? Not sure it would work for LJ II pickup rollers, they're a softer rubber. Nor am I sure what the fluid did, for all I know it stripped off a layer of the rubber. -Frank McConnell From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com Tue Dec 1 13:42:44 1998 From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: Now VERY *OT* (hit delete now): RE: networking newbie In-Reply-To: <19981201192229.14128.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 1 Dec 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > I'll gladly offer you a job at 2K a year maintaining my Linux and FreeBSD > systems. I do it myself now, but it takes more of my time than I'd like > (between 16 and 32 hours a month). Oops...it seems I forgot a couple of zeros. No wonder I'm so broke... From Dean.Nelson at lmco.com Tue Dec 1 13:50:18 1998 From: Dean.Nelson at lmco.com (Dean A. Nelson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: <012a01be1cf0$079533e0$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <000b01be1d63$d4460900$2893f6c6@eng1> >>The green connect is labelled "G/MONO" so I'd be inclined to agree with >>you. > >Mine are just labelled "R" "G" and "B" > > >>I at least knew that much. (: I was given a fat wodge of QIC tapes and >>DG/UX 5.4R3 at least was included as well as some older versions and >>possibly one newer. > >Did better than me, I just got the bare boxes, no mice, no monitors, no >keyboards, no docs. I've got 2 AV410s for sale and a DG 17" Monitor for the AV410s (RGB. The monitor should work just fine with your 310. If you're intersted, make a bid. See the posting from yesterday. Dean Nelson From kurtkilgor at geocities.com Tue Dec 1 15:18:19 1998 From: kurtkilgor at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP References: <199812011009.KAA20057@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <98120116205100.00534@localhost.localdomain> Actually, a few months ago, a bus driver was stabbed to death here in Boston. And of course, buses are blown up often in Israel, though nothing has happened recently. But what were the results of this incident, Derek? How many injured/killed? >I never heared of such a thing over here. Shooting a bus driver ? >The last time I remember was I think 1972 at the Munich Olypics, >at the masacre on the airport (you may remember the terrorist >attack) - and of course similar things had hapend in the Bosinan >war. But in an ordinary city ? And mestupidone belived Seattle >to be a 'regular' safe place. >Gruss >Hans > From Innfogra at aol.com Tue Dec 1 15:21:59 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet Series II Message-ID: <5063b12a.36645df7@aol.com> Fedron is still available through Copier service centers. It works but don't get it on the plastic parts. Use sparingly. I have salvaged several laser printers with this stuff. As a fix it will work for several months but doesn't change the fact the rollers are hardening with age. Use good ventilation. Paxton From Innfogra at aol.com Tue Dec 1 15:27:52 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: DG Aviion 88100 chip set Message-ID: I have about 30 chip sets for the 88100 processor and they include 2 88200s. The 88200s seem identical to me. They are matched by speed, 16, 20 & 25 MHz. Anyone need a spare set? These are pulls from never used OPUS cards that went byby. Paxton From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Dec 1 15:47:44 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: networking newbie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry for this OT comment but its important that people read Eric Raymond's Halloween documents at http://www.opensource.org/halloween.html if Julian's story below scares or bothers you. On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Julian Richardson wrote: > >> Now let me get this straight. You say Linux worked -- that implies > >> that it was in place at one point, then NT was put in there and that > >> NT didn't work. > > Ah, but there's the problem. > > NT - about a day to get set up and working (or not at all in this > case!). Needs lots of hardware. Costs lots. > > Linux - about an hour to set up, runs on old Pentium 60's (yes, I know > it runs fast even on 486 machines, but in this case a P60 was all that > was around and free). Doesn't cost anything. > > Management - "oh, that's quite impressive. But we don't know anything > about Unix, but do know NT, so we have to stick with that". > > Not that I'm rather stressed out at the way the computing industry > blindly follows the big players round (sarcasm mode is on here, folks!) > - but I run up against this brick wall time after time. People high up > in a company see something as a risk unless they have to invest lots of > time and money in puchasing it and supporting it - they just don't seem > to feel safe if the product in question is low-cost (or free!) and runs > itself without any trouble, even if such "features" are rammed down > their throats. It's a very scary industry. > > >> you then wrote a _Java_ program to do > >> what should be handled by something two or three layers down? > > yup, took about 30 minutes too. I got fed up with NT wanting to reboot > every ten minutes, the PC taking five minutes to boot, the > 32x-speed-all-the-bells-and-whistles CDROM drive taking a minute to spin > up to speed before I could access it to install software... I'm sure > most of you have been there! > > cheers > > Jules > > > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 11/02/98] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 1 12:46:59 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: VAX collectors attention In-Reply-To: <981130224057.2de00192@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Nov 30, 98 10:40:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 646 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981201/a51d54ad/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 1 13:38:20 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet Series II In-Reply-To: <1998Dec01.122913.1767.165073@smtp.itgonline.com> from "Marty" at Dec 1, 98 12:55:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 984 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981201/d150a364/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 1 13:34:50 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet Series II In-Reply-To: <1998Dec01.122149.1767.165060@smtp.itgonline.com> from "Marty" at Dec 1, 98 12:23:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 797 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981201/9c27fa76/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 1 13:47:10 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet Series II In-Reply-To: <1998Dec01.132417.1767.165105@smtp.itgonline.com> from "Marty" at Dec 1, 98 01:24:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2374 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981201/4901500e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 1 13:11:07 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet Series II In-Reply-To: <1998Dec01.092201.1767.164934@smtp.itgonline.com> from "Marty" at Dec 1, 98 09:23:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1457 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981201/36d5f411/attachment.ksh From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Dec 1 18:26:46 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: WTB: old Zenith laptop (or other laptop with 26-pin HD) Message-ID: <01be1d8a$71a3b8c0$d38ea6d1@the-general> Hi! I'm looking for an old Zenith laptop with the 26-pin type HD. The HD does NOT need to be working, nor does it need to have the HD - as long as it has a good controller. I don't need an external P/S, or a battery, either, since I have a bunch of old 12V P/S's laying around. I am willing to trade a WANG WLTC laptop for it, which has an internal P/S problem (popped a cap - probably dry electrolytic) It needs an external P/S (18V) and battery. The computer has a built-in thermal printer, and HD. The computer DOES operate, provided it has a battery and P/S (and the blown cap is replaced). I have the schematics on how to make a battery for it. I'm not necessarily looking for a Zenith, but any computer (laptop) with a 26-pin HD will do (same requirements - no battery, etc.). I'll be willing to trade for any computer BUT a Toshiba. I'm trying to rescue data off of two HD's that I have from Tandy 1400HD laptops, and I think I may have better luck finding a new computer than a new HD controller for the 1400. As always, ThAnX in advance, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 1 12:55:38 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: Recent Finds & Thoughts In-Reply-To: <802566CD.003A653A.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Dec 1, 98 10:45:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1250 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981201/4f4236ac/attachment.ksh From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Dec 1 16:11:12 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP In-Reply-To: <98120116205100.00534@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: How about picking up a newspaper to find out instead of asking about it here? On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > Actually, a few months ago, a bus driver was stabbed to death here in Boston. > And of course, buses are blown up often in Israel, though nothing has happened > recently. But what were the results of this incident, Derek? How many > injured/killed? > >I never heared of such a thing over here. Shooting a bus driver ? > >The last time I remember was I think 1972 at the Munich Olypics, > >at the masacre on the airport (you may remember the terrorist > >attack) - and of course similar things had hapend in the Bosinan > >war. But in an ordinary city ? And mestupidone belived Seattle > >to be a 'regular' safe place. > > >Gruss > >Hans > > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 11/02/98] From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Dec 1 16:18:14 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP In-Reply-To: <98120116205100.00534@localhost.localdomain> from "Max Eskin" at Dec 1, 98 04:18:19 pm Message-ID: <199812012218.OAA15273@saul10.u.washington.edu> > Actually, a few months ago, a bus driver was stabbed to death here in Boston. > And of course, buses are blown up often in Israel, though nothing has happened > recently. But what were the results of this incident, Derek? How many > injured/killed? Three people have already died. The driver died from his gunshot wound, the person who shot the driver shot himself and died, and one passenger died from the trauma of being thrown out of the bus. About thirty people are injued. Some people are in serious condition and (I would guess) may die; some people are in satisfactory condition (one person in satisfactory condition won't be able to walk for months because of broken bones); some people suffered "only" things like a broken arm. If the bus had hit the water there would have been many more deaths. This is getting pretty far off-topic, I think. -- Derek From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Dec 1 19:15:18 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: (OT) SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Message-ID: <01be1d91$39616460$578ea6d1@the-general> What does that have to do with fixing/using classic computers? -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 >> Actually, a few months ago, a bus driver was stabbed to death here in Boston. >> And of course, buses are blown up often in Israel, though nothing has happened >> recently. But what were the results of this incident, Derek? How many >> injured/killed? >> >I never heared of such a thing over here. Shooting a bus driver ? >> >The last time I remember was I think 1972 at the Munich Olypics, >> >at the masacre on the airport (you may remember the terrorist >> >attack) - and of course similar things had hapend in the Bosinan >> >war. But in an ordinary city ? And mestupidone belived Seattle >> >to be a 'regular' safe place. >> >> >Gruss >> >Hans >> > >> > > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 11/02/98] > > From yowza at yowza.com Tue Dec 1 16:19:22 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: DG Aviion 88100 chip set In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Dec 1998 Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > I have about 30 chip sets for the 88100 processor and they include 2 88200s. > The 88200s seem identical to me. They are matched by speed, 16, 20 & 25 MHz. > Anyone need a spare set? These are pulls from never used OPUS cards that went > byby. Oh man, I used to always drool over OPUS cards. The 88K version was called the 400PM (Personal Mainframe). They plugged into a PC and came with a version of Unix. I think they did several other high-end (at the time) CPU cards. -- Doug From Marty at itgonline.com Tue Dec 1 16:41:08 1998 From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet Series II Message-ID: <1998Dec01.174015.1767.165225@smtp.itgonline.com> The Feed Roller Assembly indeed is the entire shaft with clutch and feed roller. My experience on SX engines has been clutch failure more often than solenoid failure on the paper control pca although the feed roller replacement was the most common failure for me. I was repairing these for the US ARmy Personnel Command in Alexandria, Virginia on a daily basis and learned to swap out the entire feed roller assembly at once to ensure the printer was back online okay and avoid a recall. I'd typically get about six SX calls a day (along with various pc problems and other printer calls) so I had to keep moving. I would rebuild these feed roller assemblies in my office when time and replacement parts allowed. Regarding the CX engine, the clutch in the cassette feed roller assembly (which requires splitting the clamshell> a piece of cake after you've done it a few times) was the biggest feed failure item I encountered. Those weird feed wedges (three I seem to recall) rarely failed. Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: HP Laserjet Series II Author: classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet Date: 12/1/98 5:04 PM > > I have repaired literally hundreds of HP II's and HP III's over the Ditto... > past 10 years. The paper feed problem you mention is a piece of cake > to repair (replace) and the parts are readily available at a very low > price. Following are the parts you need: > > HP P/N RG1-0931-060CN FEED ROLLER ASSEMBLY Isn't that the complete spindle with the clutch, etc. It's a _lot_ cheaper to buy just the worn roller (I have _never_ had a clutch fail), and almost as quick to change it. There is another common cause for paper jams in that area. Namely that one of the clutch solenoids isn't firing - either the pickup clutch solenoid or the registration solenoid. There are 2 ways to tell : How far does the paper move ? About 1" -> registration solenoid A little -> worn pickup roller Not at all -> pickup solenoid or totally worn roller. If there is a solenoid problem, there are 3 solutions : Replace the 'electronic component assembly' (PSU + clutch board) -- $$$$$$$$ Replace the switch/solenoid PCB (clutch board) -- $$$ Fix the darn thing. There are _4_ components for each clutch - the solenoid, the back-emf protection diode, the driver transistor, and its base resistor. The transistor is the most likely failure, btw. It actually takes less time to test the components than to look up the price/part number for the PCB :-) It could also be a problem on the DC controller board, but I have never had that. -tony ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists5.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Dec01.170458.1767.81345; Tue, 01 Dec 1998 17:04:59 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id OAA19811; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:02:35 -0800 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id OAA22394 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:01:42 -0800 Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id OAA15 680 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:01:10 -0800 Received: from [158.152.97.199] (helo=p850ug1) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.053 #1) id 0zkxpA-0002sa-00 for classiccmp@u.washington.edu; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 21:59:12 +0000 Received: by p850ug1 id (Debian /\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1 #29.33); Tue, 1 Dec 98 19:11 GMT Message-Id: Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:11:07 +0000 (GMT) Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: HP Laserjet Series II In-Reply-To: <1998Dec01.092201.1767.164934@smtp.itgonline.com> from "Marty" at Dec 1, 98 09:23:27 am Content-Type: text X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN From tomowad at earthlink.net Tue Dec 1 16:55:45 1998 From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: WTB: old Zenith laptop (or other laptop with 26-pin HD) Message-ID: <199812012255.OAA13139@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >I'm looking for an old Zenith laptop with the 26-pin type HD. The HD does >NOT need to be working, nor does it need to have the HD - as long as it has >a good controller. I don't need an external P/S, or a battery, either, >since I have a bunch of old 12V P/S's laying around. Hi Jason, I have a Zenith Data Systems ZWL-184-97 that's missing HD & power supply/video card. If you want the motherboard (unknown condition), I'll send it to you fro $12 shipped. Sincerely, Tom -- Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Dec 1 16:58:07 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: VAX collectors attention Message-ID: <981201175807.2de00262@trailing-edge.com> >> As long as we're on the topic, anyone have a Ethernet card for the >> Pro that they'd like to sell? I'm willing to pay CA$H! (The goal >> is to put Alan Baldwin's TCP/IP for RT-11 on a Pro and run a web server.) >You mean they're rare? No, they're not especially rare. It's just that I have an application for one! > I picked up a PRO350 a few years back with VR241 >monitor, DEC desk (with the motorised raise/lower column for the monitor) >_and_ an ethernet card. No, I am not selling it. And taunting me with stories about how you have one but don't use it and I can't have it doesn't particularly help me :-(. Tim. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Dec 1 17:19:29 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: Recent Finds & Thoughts In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Dec 1, 98 06:55:38 pm Message-ID: <199812012319.PAA09956@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1530 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981201/19de77ef/attachment.ksh From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com Tue Dec 1 17:21:43 1998 From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: Off topic posts (was Re: SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP) In-Reply-To: <199812012218.OAA15273@saul10.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, D. Peschel wrote: > This is getting pretty far off-topic, I think. ---- BEGIN RANT ---- Perhaps if those responding to posts with something that is off-topic or that changes the subject would change the subject header to: A) Reflect the actual content of the message, with a reference to the old message and/or B) Indicate that the reply is off topic, with the letters OT as a prefix ...we could avoid the usual flame war and reposts of the FAQ. That way, people who don't want to read anything but messages concerning the collecting/restoration of classic computers can either hit the delete button or automatically filter out any messages who's subject contains "OT" and those who like a casual, conversational atmosphere can enjoy the social dialog. I often enjoy the tangent threads here, but I can't stand trying to follow a discussion when 10 messages with the same, exact subject are about 10 completely different topics. This point has been brought up before, and, IMHO, it's really just a common courtesty that could save us all a lot of unnecessary grief. ---- END RANT ---- :wq From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Dec 1 17:26:22 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP In-Reply-To: <199812012218.OAA15273@saul10.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, D. Peschel wrote: > This is getting pretty far off-topic, I think. You know a list is in trouble when the list "moderator" is off-topic :) Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 11/02/98] From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Dec 1 19:40:57 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: FSOT: IBM 4869 external 5 1/4" floppy drive Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981201194057.3087effa@intellistar.net> The title says it all. External floppy drive made by IBM. Excellent condition. It has the standard DB-37 connector. I think it's a 1.2Mb model but I'm not sure. Guaranteed against DOA. Joe From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Dec 1 17:50:21 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Dec 1, 98 03:26:22 pm Message-ID: <199812012350.PAA02319@saul9.u.washington.edu> > You know a list is in trouble when the list "moderator" is off-topic :) Well, somebody asked... what else can I do? Anyway, I'm not going to answer any more questions about disasters. It was probably a bad idea to bring the subject up in the first place. -- Derek From cmcmanis at freegate.com Tue Dec 1 17:58:43 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: Recent Finds & Thoughts In-Reply-To: <199812012319.PAA09956@oa.ptloma.edu> References: Message-ID: <4.1.19981201155637.00b1ddc0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 03:19 PM 12/1/98 -0800, Cameron wrote: >The question is, does source => Dolby encoding => Dolby decoding == source? >Dolby encoding, AFAIK, increases the volume of sounds >10KHz, and decoding >does the reverse. Dolby compresses the sound track in the high end causing high frequencies to get a lot higher. Generally static is thus moved out of the reproducible range of the tape and when the signal is decompressed the "hiss" is gone. And yes, it alters the frequency spectrum of the signal source in an effort to remove "noise". --Chuck From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Tue Dec 1 09:14:36 1998 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: Replacing 6550s Message-ID: <802566CD.0059027E.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> > Why do POKE and PEEK fail there? Was that done on purpose or is it just >> > the result of something lame like using a signed value to represent >> > addresses? >> No, it's software. It was a feature that was supposed to prevent >> inquisitive geeks disassembling the BASIC ROM between $C000 and (I think) >> $E7FF. The OS ROMs, above $F000, were peekable, though, as was the I/O > > It was totally useless for that. The sort of person who could disassemble > and make sense of the BASIC ROM was the sort of person who could also > write enough machine code to copy the ROM into (peekable) RAM a few K at > a time... I just added a little machine code routine to my disassembler that peeked the byte it was looking at for it. I was really annoyed to find that I needed one for the assembler as well to do the poking... BTW BASIC programs up in the ROM expansion space didn't work. The machine relied on the MSB of the address not being set for one or two things, I can't remember what. Philip. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Tue Dec 1 09:20:27 1998 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: Audio Cassette formats; Copy protection? Message-ID: <802566CD.005945D1.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >::There are plenty of ways of preventing a BASIC program from being listed. >::Dunno how you prevent it being saved (and say 'BAD PROGRAM'), but I could >::probably figure it out given time... Anyone else? > > On the 64, you could type > > 10 remL > > (rem, then a shifted-L) > > and LIST will stop up with a ?SYNTAX ERROR when it hits that line. Rather > easy to defeat but annoying as heck. :-) Same on Basic 2 PETS. On BASIC 1 you used shift-K. Possibility that I thought of, but didn't try. Make the initial line a v. high line number (>63999). Have the program start rem L, then disable the stop key, then poke that line number to something smaller. Bit harder to defeat but won't deter the determined cracker. Mean trick I did use. In the middle of a subroutine I entered the line REM@TURN I then found the @ sign and poked the location with 20 (ctrl-T, the PET backspace) This now lists as RETURN but does nothing... Philip. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Dec 1 19:59:15 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: Help! Need service info for HP 9835 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981201195915.39b7794e@intellistar.net> I finally tore into my "new" HP 9835. I found something on the power supply card as completely burned away. All the output voltages are present but low. It would save a lot time if some would sell or loan me a service manual for this old beast. Thanks, Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Dec 1 20:33:55 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: HP3000 help needed In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19981130092944.44b7e274@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981201203355.4847381a@intellistar.net> At 06:38 PM 11/30/98 +0000, you wrote: >[HP9123] > >> OK OK. It's FUCTIONLY the same as a 9122. As long as it works I don't >> care what the insides look like. > >You'll care when you have to fix the darn thing and you discover that the >stuff you figured out for the HP9122 is no help at all :-). No, I won't. The 9121, 9122, 9123 drives are too cheap to fool with. I can buy them all day long for $10 each. Besides I've never found one with bad electronics. It's allways the drive mechanism that fails in them. Joe From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Dec 1 21:33:44 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: FSOT: IBM 4869 external 5 1/4" floppy drive Message-ID: <01be1da4$901b41a0$208ea6d1@the-general> Sort of off the topic of the drives for sale, but on the topic of an external IBM disk drive. I have the cable from a 4869 drive connected to a full-height drive (IBM), which is connected to a 4869 P/S on my IBM PC. However, it doesn't look so good. I was wondering if anyone had an old TRS-80 disk box (mod. 1 style) that they'd be willing to part with for a few bucks. The drive itself doesn't need to work. All I really need is the box and the P/S for it, so I have something to house my external drive "B" in. ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 3:39 PM Subject: FSOT: IBM 4869 external 5 1/4" floppy drive >The title says it all. External floppy drive made by IBM. Excellent >condition. It has the standard DB-37 connector. I think it's a 1.2Mb model >but I'm not sure. Guaranteed against DOA. > > Joe > > From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Dec 1 18:40:56 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: Dolby Enc/Dec: Tangent to List Topic In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981201155637.00b1ddc0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Chuck McManis wrote: > At 03:19 PM 12/1/98 -0800, Cameron wrote: > >The question is, does source => Dolby encoding => Dolby decoding == source? > >Dolby encoding, AFAIK, increases the volume of sounds >10KHz, and decoding > >does the reverse. > > Dolby compresses the sound track in the high end causing high frequencies > to get a lot higher. Generally static is thus moved out of the reproducible > range of the tape and when the signal is decompressed the "hiss" is gone. > And yes, it alters the frequency spectrum of the signal source in an effort > to remove "noise". > > --Chuck > Okay... This (I think) is at least *close* to the topic of this List, since many of our machines are designed with cassette tape I/O as secondary storage... HOWEVER: The above posts reflect some general mis-conceptions re: just what those "D"s do to signals on/in a medium of storage or transmission. Humble Disclaimer: I am a complete novice concerning many aspects of the hobby of the care and feeding of elderly computers... but professional and cinema audio is how I have made my living for most of my life, and for the last almost ten years it has been as the Chief Engineer of M.G.M. Studios.. I *think* I can help y'all with how Dolby A, B, C, SR, and HQX work... since I have designed and built and use every day systems with these encoding and decoding schemes, as well as dbx, Telcom C-64, Ultra*Stereo, NatSemi DNR..... etc. First, with most small cassettes, we are talking Dolby 'B' or 'C'; these DO NOT 'alter' the frquency (ie the pitch) of the signals... they do not shift the spectrum in any way.. [Cameron is closer in his post], but each uses band-limited compression and decompression to reduce the overal signal in given frequency bands, store or transport the signal across a noisy medium, then decompress at the destination. Any noise *existing* in the original will be reproduced, but noise from the media will be reduced. These systems can also add distortion of various kinds when Things go wrong... an understanding of the nature of the processes can help in restoration of data media made by older systems and (cheap) cassette decks. I have detailed info (many hundreds of pages) on each of the common Noise Reduction schemes, and I would be glad to correspond PRIVATELY with anyone interested in the real poop on how NR is implemented in audio systems. I am also working on a document for the Archives (maybe a FAQ supplement) on exactly how the common NR schemes work as they specifically relate to cassette-based computer data storage. At least I hope this will be of use to some of us who have old tapes to restore and preserve..... and the physics, chemistry, and electronics of magnetic recording in general is a fascinating and quite beautiful topic in and of itself... IMHO. Cheers John PS: Help Prevent Topic-Drift! E-mail me privately unless it's list oriented... thanx! From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Tue Dec 1 10:05:18 1998 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video Message-ID: <802566CD.005BB33D.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > Also, the colour video output is on 3 BNC connectors. Can I use 3 segments > of ethernet coax to carry the video signal or is the impedance wrong? Has someone else answered this? I can't remember. Anyway: Impedance of Etehernet coax is 50 ohms; impedance of video coax should be 75 ohms. You will get slight ghosting from reflections etc. if your leads are longer than a few feet. More importantly, 75 ohm BNC connectors are not quite the same mechanically as 50 ohm ones. Plug in the wrong combination and you get slight mechanical damage or a poor contact (can't remember which is which. I think it's 50 ohm plug in 75 ohm socket => mechanical damage, 75 ohm plug in 50 ohm socket => poor contact) It might work in a pinch but it's not recommended. Philip. From rcini at msn.com Tue Dec 1 18:29:25 1998 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: Posted yesterday Message-ID: <008901be1d8e$dc048d80$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Hello, all: I began posting the Altair 8800b docs last night. I've posted part 1, part 2a, all of chapter 5, and the Appendicies. Enjoy, [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <================ reply separator =================> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 1 19:11:16 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: <802566CD.005BB33D.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Dec 1, 98 05:05:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1280 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981202/9666a6f7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 1 19:13:44 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: HP3000 help needed In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981201203355.4847381a@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Dec 1, 98 08:33:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1015 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981202/1b55d2eb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 1 19:23:34 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet Series II In-Reply-To: <1998Dec01.174015.1767.165225@smtp.itgonline.com> from "Marty" at Dec 1, 98 05:41:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2503 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981202/df21dbdf/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Dec 1 19:43:00 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: Recent Finds & Thoughts In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Recent Finds & Thoughts" (Dec 1, 18:55) References: Message-ID: <9812020143.ZM6619@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 1, 18:55, Tony Duell wrote: > Well, if audio processing that leaves the signal going to the output > socket unchanged (like recording with Dolby, playback with Dolby) still > allows the copy to load, then I think audio recording onto a CD would > work. In fact I can't think of a good reason why it wouldn't work, based > on my understanding of the CD system. There was an article in one of the Acorn newgroups the other day, from someone who had done exactly that for hundreds of his old computer tapes, and was extolling the virtues of being able to find things, having reliable reproduction, etc. He made no mention of any special signal processing. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Dec 1 20:04:54 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: Recent Finds & Thoughts In-Reply-To: Cameron Kaiser "Re: Recent Finds & Thoughts" (Dec 1, 15:19) References: <199812012319.PAA09956@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <9812020204.ZM6629@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 1, 15:19, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > The question is, does source => Dolby encoding => Dolby decoding == source? > Dolby encoding, AFAIK, increases the volume of sounds >10KHz, and decoding > does the reverse. There are three Dolby systems, all based on audio companders. Dolby A (the "professional" one, used by some recording studios for master tapes) works by splitting the audio into a number of frequency bands (like a graphic equaliser does). On recording, each band is then fed through a compressor to reduce the dynamic range, thus keeping the volume level fairly high. On playback, it's fed through an expander to recreate the dynamic range of the original signal. Dolby B is a simpler version, with a single filter for HF; it uses a similar compander for the upper frequencies only. Dolby C is a n "improved" Dolby B, which (IIRC) uses a different corner frequency and different compander. None of them use any form of frequency shifting. The reason Dolby B and C work so well (for tape, which is what they were designed for) is that tape hiss is largely made up of HF noise. You don't hear the hiss if the signal is at a sufficiently greater level than the hiss (which is more-or-less constant) -- in other words, if the signal-to-noise ratio is high enough. So Dolby B/C boost the level of quiet sections of the high frequency signal before recording, but leave the louder passages as-is, to avoid saturation. On playback, the amplitude of the quieter passages is attenuated again, and the hiss is attenuated with it. > However, that doesn't mean that there won't be subtle > differences between one particular encoder and a particular decoder's > respective frequency responses, so you can't be sure they'll be precisely > the same. Your ear won't care, but I bet the computer might. Unlikely to make much difference, unless the filter corner frequencies and rolloffs were quite different, which Dolby Labs were quite picky about before granting licences. > I came up with, during my days when I was too cheap/poor to spring for prefab > audio equipment, a superamplification system that was Dolby compatible. I'm > not saying that *that* was how Dolby worked (in fact, I'm sure it isn't), but > on the treble section of the sound, which is where Dolby NR operates, it was > pretty #$%&ing destructive. I wouldn't risk it. Then it wasn't Dolby-compatible :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Dec 1 20:40:12 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: Recent Finds & Thoughts In-Reply-To: <9812020204.ZM6629@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Dec 2, 98 02:04:54 am Message-ID: <199812020240.SAA13526@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 507 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981201/c544feb1/attachment.ksh From foxnhare at goldrush.com Tue Dec 1 20:32:08 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: PET Composite Video References: <199812010802.AAA27700@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3664A6A7.C4A2103F@goldrush.com> > From: Philip.Belben@pgen.com > Subject: Re: PET Video (was: Replacing 6550s) & 128 > > Foxnhare (who are you anyway? I've seen the address before. You're not > Larry Anderson by any chance are you? :-) ) wrote: Yep, the login was my wife's idea... Fox: an old definition for my middle name, Todd, and Hare: for her last name. > >> From: Doug Spence > >> Subject: Re: Replacing 6550s > > > >> (I especially find it cool that they list various part numbers for the > >> connector. :) ) > > > > Digikey is the best source for inexpensive PET compatible connectors. > > (1-800-DIGI-KEY) along with a ton of other cool parts. > Many thanks for that. I know where to turn next time I'm looking... I think the last batch of 12/24 PCB connectors from them cost me about $18 (for 10). Very reasonable! [snip!] > I thought the video signals were there on later machines too, but I can > well believe it might not work on the 12 inch screen models. I would think you could get a multi-sync to do it, but the way the screen behaves I think the fat-forty and 80000 series were able to change sync rates. (Of course what do I know I'm just mainly a software guy). > My experience is that Nick Hampshire's circuit doesn't work at all. Using > the same two chips, 4011 and 4066, the correct procedure (sorry. The > procedure that worked when I tried it) is to combine the two syncs with the > 4011, invert (I think - not sure about this one) with another 4011 gate, > and use that to gate the video using the 4066. Works a treat. They tried > it at school, too (don't know what circuit tho'), and got a grey background > for the white text. I imagine a series capacitor might help, but I've not > tried it. Could ya like draw it out or something... I would really like to have a composite output on the PET (ohh could do WWW quick-time animated movies of such classics as Drameda! or Dance! - PET character animated shorts) 100k of video for a 5K program animation :) Actually would be better to screen capture it off of an emulator and then you can compress it way down to say 60 k or less.. > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: PET Video (was: Replacing 6550s) & 128 > > [Composite video adapter] > > > My experience is that Nick Hampshire's circuit doesn't work at all. Using > > the same two chips, 4011 and 4066, the correct procedure (sorry. The > > I've never tried that one. I've used modifications of the TRS-80 Model 1 > circuit and the BBC micro circuit with no problems at all. The latter is > simpler, so I'll describe that. But the output has a little DC offset > that some (a _very_ few) monitors object to. > > Start by Xoring HSync and VSync to get a CSync signal. I normally use a > 74LS86 for this. But the XOR-from-4-NANDs using a 74LS00 once got me out > of a hole when I couldn't find any '86s. Invert CSync to give Csync/ > using either another section of the '86 or a suitable TTL inverter. > Alternatively make an XNOR gate from 4 NORs. > > You now combine video and CSync/ using this circuit Or the complete circuit of this? I would really like to get a composite circuit for the PET FAQ on-line One could concevably make a portable PET (yeah, the PET is kinda portable, but not as much as an SX 64 or 128D) if such a circuit was available. ;> From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Dec 1 20:50:53 1998 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:51 2005 Subject: FW: MicroVAX 3100 -- complete system! -- available In-Reply-To: <36643B50.2A88236D@cncdsl.com> References: <36643B50.2A88236D@cncdsl.com> Message-ID: <3665aa94.1417952547@smtp.jps.net> Found on Usenet. This sounds like a great opportunity for someone who wants a MicroVAXen to get started. I already E-mailed to the guy that I guesstimated the system value at between $50 and $75. Please contact him directly if you're interested. Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- >>From: Scott Hale >>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec,comp.sys.dec.micro >>Subject: Microvax 3100 available >>Date: 01 Dec 1998 10:54:09 PST >>Organization: Sherman Clay & Co >>Lines: 22 >>Message-ID: <36643B50.2A88236D@cncdsl.com> >>Reply-To: Shale@sclay.com >>NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.31.3.16 >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) >>X-Accept-Language: en >>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!spamkiller1.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!128.32.206.55!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.stanford.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!207.155.183.80.MISMATCH!global-news-master >>Xref: blushng.jps.net comp.sys.dec:4904 comp.sys.dec.micro:657 >> >>Through a company acq we have acquired the below system: >> >>Microvax 3100/20-20RZ=tk5 >>OS: vms 5.5 >>32mb memory >>4 internal HD (500mb, 400mb, 100mb, 100mb) >>External TK50 tape unit >>VMS licenses included >> >>We gone through a few VAX resellers with no luck. Is there any value to >>the above system or is it complete junk? >> >>Anybody interested in buying, pls contact me. >> >>thanks! >> >>Scott Hale >>PC/LAN Manager >>Sherman Clay & Co >>Shale@sclay.com >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Dec 1 23:18:32 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: HP3000 help needed In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19981201203355.4847381a@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981201231832.2e3feb0a@intellistar.net> At 01:13 AM 12/2/98 +0000, you wrote: > >They're cheap over here as well - when you can find them. Actually, I've >never seen a real HP9122. I've got a couple of 9121s, one I converted to >a 9122 by fitting DS drives and fiddling with the links (I think) and a >9123. That's all I've seen. I just passed up 4+ pallet loads of them at a scrap metal dealer's place. 9121, 9122 and 9123, both D and S models. I hated to see them scrapped but I don't have room to save everything. > >> can buy them all day long for $10 each. Besides I've never found one with >> bad electronics. It's allways the drive mechanism that fails in them. > >And the drives are Sony, and I have the service manual.... I've never needed the service manual. The problem that I find is that the grease on the mechanism dries out and the mechanism doesn't lift up all the way. Then the user tries to force a disk in or out and it hits the top head and tears it off. If you catch it before the head is damaged you can clean the old grease off and relube it. It seems like only the double sided drives have this problem. > >I had a trivial electronic fault (bad IC socket IIRC) on one of the >9121s. Apart from that they've been very reliable... Yeap, I've never seen one fail other than the dried grease problem. That's why I don't worry about fixing them. Besides if they're like a lot of HP products, they're full of custom ICs that you can't get anyway. Joe From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Dec 1 20:02:15 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: FSOT: IBM 4869 external 5 1/4" floppy drive Message-ID: <5c702f67.36649fa7@aol.com> if the drive bezel has a * on it, it's a 360k. if no * is on the faceplate it will be a 1.2 model. it's easy to change the drive anyway, i installed a 1.2 drive in the 4869 enclosure. In a message dated 98-12-01 18:40:40 EST, you write: << The title says it all. External floppy drive made by IBM. Excellent condition. It has the standard DB-37 connector. I think it's a 1.2Mb model but I'm not sure. Guaranteed against DOA. >> From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Dec 1 22:04:25 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: PET Composite Video In-Reply-To: <3664A6A7.C4A2103F@goldrush.com> References: <199812010802.AAA27700@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981201220425.00d06870@pc> At 06:32 PM 12/1/98 -0800, Larry Anderson wrote: > I would really like to have a >composite output on the PET (ohh could do WWW quick-time animated movies of >such classics as Drameda! or Dance! - PET character animated shorts) 100k of >video for a 5K program animation :) It's been done. has a number of movie clips converted to ASCII, and then played via a Java applet. If you aren't on a well-equipped browser on a fast link, forget it. I do recognize the irony of this situation. These movies were created with the SGI 'ttyvideo' package, , which lets you convert a bitmap animation or real-time video capture (the SGI Indy includes a camera) to an animated or static ASCII version. - John From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Dec 1 22:27:45 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: Now VERY *OT* (hit delete now): RE: networking newbie Message-ID: <199812020427.AA19776@world.std.com> < > NT - about a day to get set up and working (or not at all in this < > case!). Needs lots of hardware. Costs lots. My $0.02. I just took a job where win95 and win/NT are it. I'm sure they could be migrated to linux BUT, I'm paid (well!!) to maintain and move their systems forward both hardware and software wise. Personally MS stuff stinks, I'm not paid for that opinion. I'm paid to provide my peice in helping to keep the business in the black. The management is not married to DOS/WIN/NT as a "they are great" but rather it does the job for the scale of business they are and within costs. The user base however could never work with linux(unix). Oh, Bif4win is garbage!!!! Allison From roblwill at usaor.net Wed Dec 2 01:38:47 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: FSOT: IBM 4869 external 5 1/4" floppy drive Message-ID: <01be1dc6$cbfae460$668ea6d1@the-general> But, if you put a 1.2MB drive in it the case, it won't work with a PC or XT. I tried it, and it just gives the same old "general failure" errors. -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 7:57 PM Subject: Re: FSOT: IBM 4869 external 5 1/4" floppy drive >if the drive bezel has a * on it, it's a 360k. if no * is on the >faceplate it will be a 1.2 model. it's easy to change the drive anyway, i >installed a 1.2 drive in the 4869 enclosure. > > >In a message dated 98-12-01 18:40:40 EST, you write: > ><< The title says it all. External floppy drive made by IBM. Excellent > condition. It has the standard DB-37 connector. I think it's a 1.2Mb model > but I'm not sure. Guaranteed against DOA. > >> > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Dec 2 00:02:45 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: Now VERY *OT* (hit delete now): RE: networking newbie In-Reply-To: <199812020427.AA19776@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > The management is not married to DOS/WIN/NT as a "they are great" but > rather it does the job for the scale of business they are and within > costs. The user base however could never work with linux(unix). How wrong you are, Allison. How wrong you are. My friend is running Linux on his home PC, but if you didn't know any better (and if you didn't look close enough) you'd swear he was running Windows 95. The fact is that his desktop might as well BE Win95, because it is stolen from the look & feel of Win95. Its called the Star Office Suite. Find yourself a copy and install it on your Linux box. You'll never boot Win95 again. You'll never need to. Windows is dead. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 11/02/98] From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com Wed Dec 2 00:38:07 1998 From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: Now VERY *OT* (hit delete now): RE: networking newbie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > The management is not married to DOS/WIN/NT as a "they are great" but > > rather it does the job for the scale of business they are and within > > costs. The user base however could never work with linux(unix). > > How wrong you are, Allison. How wrong you are. > > My friend is running Linux on his home PC, but if you didn't know any > better (and if you didn't look close enough) you'd swear he was running > Windows 95. The fact is that his desktop might as well BE Win95, because > it is stolen from the look & feel of Win95. Its called the Star Office > Suite. Find yourself a copy and install it on your Linux box. You'll > never boot Win95 again. You'll never need to. I have used both Star Office and Applix (my choice). It is *not* Win95, no matter how much it looks like it. Users who rely on Microsoft Word and Excel daily are usually deeply entangled in the proprietary macros and keyboard shortcuts of them. Much of the software we use is loosely written in VB, using third-party imaging and encryption toolkits. Our existing data system is written in Omnis7, not portable. Our staff relys on Physician yellow-pages CD's that only run on windows. Our field personell use laptops and Fujitsu 600c scanners to copy medical records, whose drivers are only released for Windows. Linux will *not* replace Windows on the desktop in most businesses. What Linux/FreeBSD/OSS-type systems *will* replace is the PC-based NT servers. Anyone who has to administrate a large network/support users for a living would not try to switch everyone to Linux and accept the responsibility for teaching them how to use it, no matter how P.C. it becomes. My $0.02... Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." From yowza at yowza.com Wed Dec 2 01:07:14 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: Now VERY *OT* (hit delete now): RE: networking newbie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > Linux will *not* replace Windows on the desktop in most businesses. What > Linux/FreeBSD/OSS-type systems *will* replace is the PC-based NT servers. True, and that's mostly because X Window development sucks even more than Microsoft Windows development, which really isn't a Linux fault per se. There really isn't a good "open source" GUI alternative to Windows yet, so the best approach for now is to emulate the Win32 API on top of Linux to run legacy Win32 apps, and get to work on a nice clean simple GUI and GUI API. For Win32 emulation, Willows looks promising: http://www.willows.com/ But, you're right, I find it much easier to sneak Linux into the server side of a corporation than into the client/desktop side. Maybe if Java performance and look+feel improve another order of magnitude, that won't be as much of an issue. ObCC: Has anybody heard of a personal computer called Simon (circa 1950)? It was sold as kit plans, and cost about $300 to put together. I *really* want to find a copy of those plans. -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Dec 2 01:17:26 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: SO OFF-TOPIC AS TO BE SICKENING! Re: Now VERY *OT* (hit delete now): RE: networking newbie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > keyboard shortcuts of them. Much of the software we use is loosely written > in VB, using third-party imaging and encryption toolkits. Our existing > data system is written in Omnis7, not portable. Our staff relys on > Physician yellow-pages CD's that only run on windows. Our field personell > use laptops and Fujitsu 600c scanners to copy medical records, whose > drivers are only released for Windows. So? Everything you name here can be done under Linux with a few changes in hardware and software. Sure it would be unfeasable for your office to do it, but a new office just starting out could standardize on tools readily available under Linux. > Linux will *not* replace Windows on the desktop in most businesses. What > Linux/FreeBSD/OSS-type systems *will* replace is the PC-based NT servers. Heheheh. Windows is dead. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 11/02/98] From red at bears.org Wed Dec 2 01:33:04 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: <012a01be1cf0$079533e0$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Geoff Roberts wrote: > >The green connect is labelled "G/MONO" so I'd be inclined to agree with > >you. > > Mine are just labelled "R" "G" and "B" I don't supose you happen to know offhand what the resolution and vertical sync are.. I was unable to get my NEC Multisync 5fge to sync up. Since the noise was green and not white, there could be something wrong with the video section. I don't know. The 5fge is the only multisync monitor I have that supports composite sync on green and has BNC inputs. I did verify that it was not 1024x768 @ 60Hz by trying it on one of my Apollo monitors. I'm going to see if anything is happening on either of the serial ports in the meanwhile. > Erk. That's going to make life difficult. Sun mice are $$ but at > least you can get them. Any ideas where one would obtain a couple of > the appropriate rodentia? If it's truly a quadrature mouse, I'm sure a Logitech Bus mouse or similar could be kludged up to work. ok r. From yowza at yowza.com Wed Dec 2 03:10:41 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: Any collectors in Minneapolis? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I constantly drool over stuff that's in the Charles Babbage Institute's archives, but I don't get to Minneapolis very often (OK, I *never* get to Minneapolis). Are there any Minneapolitans (?) out there willing to copy a few goodies from their archives? I'd pay for copying, shipping, gas, and probably a coupla bucks more. There's enough interesting stuff there that I'm sure a small business could be established by selling reprints to collectors and historians (besides, what else are you going to do when it's snowing out?). -- Doug From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Wed Dec 2 03:33:18 1998 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: Now VERY *OT* (hit delete now): RE: networking newbie Message-ID: >> NT - about a day to get set up and working (or not at all in this >> case!). Needs lots of hardware. Costs lots. > >And I'm not paying for any of it, so who gives a rat's ass if some >corporate blow-hard has his head so far in his rectum that he >wants to run NT. That's the whole problem though. It's not a personal dislike of NT that annoys me, it's the fact that all this comes down on the end user - the users of the systems/software that we produce, not necessarily our direct customers - and forces them to use a shoddy system that's not up to spec and costs a lot more that it has to. NT's good for some things, especially on the client, (although even then I'm from the camp that says that if a client-side app can't be done in Java running within a browser then it isn't worth doing, so 200MB of NT overhead kinda kills my argument!) but it's the fact that *most* people have a "stick with what you know" policy (which is usually Win95 or NT, but could be a UNIX system) that really gets to me, especially when presented with hard figures to prove them wrong. I get frustrated delivering solutions to end users when I know that there is a better, cheaper and faster way (and yes, that is taking into account things like support/maintenance costs), but don't have enough clout within a company to say what systems to use and can only make recommendations which I know will be ignored. (phew.... deep breath! :*) it can be a very, very crazy world... cheers Jules > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Dec 2 07:22:01 1998 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: Still OT Re: SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP In-Reply-To: References: <98120116205100.00534@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <199812021223.MAA19232@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > >But in an ordinary city ? And mestupidone belived Seattle > > >to be a 'regular' safe place. > > Actually, a few months ago, a bus driver was stabbed to death here in Boston. > > And of course, buses are blown up often in Israel, though nothing has happened > > recently. But what were the results of this incident, Derek? How many > > injured/killed? > How about picking up a newspaper to find out instead of asking about it > here? Maybe because it's just a pure local news ? Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From fauradon at pclink.com Wed Dec 2 06:30:50 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: Any collectors in Minneapolis? Message-ID: <000a01be1def$993aa820$77010bce@francois> Yes there are collectors in Minniapple. You know, I've never had the chance to go to the Chuck Babe institute. But I can tell you one thing when it Snows here We stay home. (besides we're having temperature in the mid 50's these days) I have a pretty busy schedule but I could arrange a trip. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ >I constantly drool over stuff that's in the Charles Babbage Institute's >archives, but I don't get to Minneapolis very often (OK, I *never* get to >Minneapolis). > >Are there any Minneapolitans (?) out there willing to copy a few goodies >from their archives? I'd pay for copying, shipping, gas, and probably a >coupla bucks more. There's enough interesting stuff there that I'm sure a >small business could be established by selling reprints to collectors and >historians (besides, what else are you going to do when it's snowing >out?). > >-- Doug > From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com Wed Dec 2 08:29:42 1998 From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: Now VERY *OT* (hit delete now): RE: networking newbie Message-ID: >> The management is not married to DOS/WIN/NT as a >> "they are great" but rather it does the job for >> the scale of business they are and within >My friend is running Linux on his home PC, but if >you didn't know any better (and if you didn't look >close enough) you'd swear he was running Windows 95. >The fact is that his desktop might as well BE Win95, What's nice is being paid to support a win shop but the mgmt lets you use a pc *nix for sysadmin, use samba, put a telnetd on NT, etc. Your friend must be using fvwm95 - I just got StarOffice last night, all 70Mb of it. For topical material - I'd love to find a Xenix or SCO unix box o' 5 1/4" disks and manuals to run on a 386 - used to see 'em for sale cheap at hamfests. Chuck cswiger@widomaker.com From amirault at epix.net Wed Dec 2 10:28:18 1998 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet Series II References: <98113019113300.00619@localhost.localdomain> <366421E9.9E3184DC@epix.net> <199812011918.LAA28576@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <36656AA2.C5F21AB7@epix.net> Frank, Thanks for teaching me about this. I am glad people respond to these letters of mine. I am always open to being told a better way of doing something. John Amirault Frank McConnell wrote: > John Amirault wrote: > > How old are the machines? When is the last time they were CLEANED? I am no > > genius but the idea of CLEANING the rollers is, to me, a good one. Hope this > > suggustion helps you. > > Cleaning helps -- if the rollers have picked up dirt it will make it > harder for them to pick up paper. But the fundamental problem is > that rubber ages and gets hard. > > Once upon a time (mid-1980s) some of the HP CEs used to carry an > aromatic fluid they called "Fedron" which was good for restoring the > gumminess of hard rubber rollers. I saw them use it on 2601 (Diablo > 630) platen rollers and the little roller in the 2619 chain printer (a > Dataproducts something) that drives one of the paper-jam detectors > (roller not turning => paper not moving => paper jam, and when this > one got hard enough that the paper just slid over it without turning > it you got one frustrated computer operator). > > Is this stuff still available, or did it get banned because it's bad > for the ozone layer? > > Not sure it would work for LJ II pickup rollers, they're a softer > rubber. Nor am I sure what the fluid did, for all I know it stripped > off a layer of the rubber. > > -Frank McConnell From gram at cnct.com Wed Dec 2 10:34:56 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: Still OT Re: SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP References: <98120116205100.00534@localhost.localdomain> <199812021223.MAA19232@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Message-ID: <36656C30.4E9428BB@cnct.com> Hans Franke wrote: > > > > >But in an ordinary city ? And mestupidone belived Seattle > > > >to be a 'regular' safe place. > > > Actually, a few months ago, a bus driver was stabbed to death here in Boston. > > > And of course, buses are blown up often in Israel, though nothing has happened > > > recently. But what were the results of this incident, Derek? How many > > > injured/killed? > > How about picking up a newspaper to find out instead of asking about it > > here? > > Maybe because it's just a pure local news ? For various values of local. I suspect it didn't get much coverage over there in Europe, but it seems to have gotten coast-to-coast attention in North America. As usual, the folks who want to keep firearms out of the hands of law-abiding citizens are having thier little orgasms. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From Dean.Nelson at lmco.com Wed Dec 2 11:25:44 1998 From: Dean.Nelson at lmco.com (Dean A. Nelson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201be1e18$cc861420$2893f6c6@eng1> My DG Aviion Monitor is a trinitron GDM-1601. If you look it up on the net at http://www.nashville.net/~griffin/monitor.html My monitor shows up at 1024x768 and 1280x1024 (60hz). My monitor has a 5 bnc connection, but when hooked up to the Aviion, it only uses RGB. I went to Radio shack and got 3 6' 75 ohm video cables. They work fine. However, when I hooked the GDM-1601 up to my PC, the horz was wrong. I'm not sure why... Maybe that'll help. Dean Nelson -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of R. Stricklin (kjaeros) Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 11:33 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: DG Aviion video On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Geoff Roberts wrote: > >The green connect is labelled "G/MONO" so I'd be inclined to agree with > >you. > > Mine are just labelled "R" "G" and "B" I don't supose you happen to know offhand what the resolution and vertical sync are.. I was unable to get my NEC Multisync 5fge to sync up. Since the noise was green and not white, there could be something wrong with the video section. I don't know. The 5fge is the only multisync monitor I have that supports composite sync on green and has BNC inputs. I did verify that it was not 1024x768 @ 60Hz by trying it on one of my Apollo monitors. I'm going to see if anything is happening on either of the serial ports in the meanwhile. > Erk. That's going to make life difficult. Sun mice are $$ but at > least you can get them. Any ideas where one would obtain a couple of > the appropriate rodentia? If it's truly a quadrature mouse, I'm sure a Logitech Bus mouse or similar could be kludged up to work. ok r. From ddameron at earthlink.net Wed Dec 2 11:45:31 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: Any collectors in Minneapolis? Message-ID: <199812021745.JAA07736@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Hi Doug and all, At 03:10 AM 12/2/98 -0600, you wrote: >I constantly drool over stuff that's in the Charles Babbage Institute's >archives, but I don't get to Minneapolis very often (OK, I *never* get to >Minneapolis). > I found by willing to be helpful with them, they were willing to copy and send some material for me. I sent them some material they wanted, and they sent me some issues of "The Computer Hobbyist" in return. Of course this isn't the same thing as going there and discovering the material first hand! -Dave From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Dec 2 13:33:38 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: RSTS & the BRA81FH Message-ID: <13408617110.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Remember when I dropped my 11/44 off a cart? The RA81 dropped from about 2', and had crap (As in the other two BA-11) land on it. On later reassebling the system in another room, it no logger booted. I assumed I'd finally killed the RA81 (After also dropping it on Jeff's toes, and spinning it up with the brakes on!) and let it sit. Well, this morning, I got bored, and went back to playing with the 11. Thought maybe I could talk it into doing something from the console. Found out I'd had the SDI cable in the UDA50 backwards. Oops. Spin RA81 up, say B DU0... RSTS loads. THe drive is still alive. Throwing a few seek errors, but still readable. The Bastard RA81 From Hell Lives Again. I'm going to attempt backing it up to tape tomorrow. Think this would jinx it? ------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 2 12:36:28 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: PET Composite Video In-Reply-To: <3664A6A7.C4A2103F@goldrush.com> from "Larry Anderson" at Dec 1, 98 06:32:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 869 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981202/4c7eec76/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 2 12:33:33 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: HP3000 help needed In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981201231832.2e3feb0a@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Dec 1, 98 11:18:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1121 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981202/ea37573c/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Dec 2 14:15:00 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: FSOT: IBM 4869 external 5 1/4" floppy drive References: <5c702f67.36649fa7@aol.com> Message-ID: <36659FC3.64BB10FC@bigfoot.com> I used to assume that too-until I found a unit that someone had replaced the floppy drive in the unit with a Teac drive. While not commonplace, it's still a possibility. The 4869 cases work out nice for other machines as well if you want to do a minor amount of rewiring for accomodate the non-IBM machine. SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > if the drive bezel has a * on it, it's a 360k. if no * is on the > faceplate it will be a 1.2 model. it's easy to change the drive anyway, i > installed a 1.2 drive in the 4869 enclosure. > > In a message dated 98-12-01 18:40:40 EST, you write: > > << The title says it all. External floppy drive made by IBM. Excellent > condition. It has the standard DB-37 connector. I think it's a 1.2Mb model > but I'm not sure. Guaranteed against DOA. > >> From bill_r at inetnebr.com Wed Dec 2 14:41:13 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: FSOT: IBM 4869 external 5 1/4" floppy drive Message-ID: <199812022038.OAA17150@falcon.inetnebr.com> I've got a pile of these somewhere. If anyone can use them, I'll sell them for $10 each plus shipping. I also have some of the PS/2 internal 3.5"-to-external-5.25" drive adapters, too. >I used to assume that too-until I found a unit that someone had replaced the >floppy drive in the unit with a Teac drive. While not commonplace, it's still a >possibility. The 4869 cases work out nice for other machines as well if you want >to do a minor amount of rewiring for accomodate the non-IBM machine. > >SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > >> if the drive bezel has a * on it, it's a 360k. if no * is on the >> faceplate it will be a 1.2 model. it's easy to change the drive anyway, i >> installed a 1.2 drive in the 4869 enclosure. >> >> In a message dated 98-12-01 18:40:40 EST, you write: >> >> << The title says it all. External floppy drive made by IBM. Excellent >> condition. It has the standard DB-37 connector. I think it's a 1.2Mb model >> but I'm not sure. Guaranteed against DOA. >> >> > > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!) From dcoward at pressstart.com Wed Dec 2 15:13:12 1998 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: Call for final Elf99 design input Message-ID: <19981202130154.6229b5ea.in@mail.pressstart.com> First I just want to say that I'm still looking for 'copies' of two RCA publications: MPM-232 Operator Manual for the RCA COSMAC DOS Development System (CDS III) CDP18S007 MPM-233 Hardware Reference Manual for the RCA COSMAC DOS Development System (CDS III) CDP18S007 If you have one or both or know where to order these manuals, please let me know. O.K. I said: >I think there is a source code listing in Paul Moews book on >Elf interpreters. I dug my copy out and yes there is source listings. Paul took RCA's CHIP-8 interpreter and modified it for the ELF. In this book ("Programs for the COSMAC ELF: Interpreters"), he starts with a subset interpreter that has 10 CHIP-8 instructions and is intended to run on a 256 byte Basic ELF. Then he lists the full Elf CHIP-8 interpreter with all 30 instructions. This is intended for a 4K Super Elf with 1861 video, but it can run on a 1 1/4K Elf. "It is also possible to use CHIP-8 in the 1 1/4K ELF's described in the articles in Popular Electronics, but to do so is very tedious unless the switches are replaced with a latched decoded keyboard." He also demonstrates with listings, how to extend the CHIP-8 instruction set. I can send you a copy of this book, it's only 31 pages. I also have one of his other books called "Programs for the COSMAC ELF: Music and Games". ----------------------------------------------------------- Fun Fact of the Day Did you know that a windowing graphical user interface was available for S-100 bus in 1979? See the product review in Popular Electronics Aug 79 page 74. ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From mark_k at iname.com Wed Dec 2 14:23:28 1998 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: Recent Finds & Thoughts Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Dec 1998 Philip Belben wrote: >We didn't try recording with Dolby and playing back without. I'd be very >surprised if that worked (did you mean it that way round). I can't >remember if we recorded with and played back with - I imagine that would >work - but we definitely couldn't get it to work recording without and >playing back with, although this actually works quite well for music. All Dolby B seems to do, is increase the level of high frequencies when the recording is made. Then when played back, the Dolby NR reduced the level of high frequencies back to what it should be (hence also reducing the background hiss). So recording with Dolby off and playing back wilth Dolby on will serve to reduce the level of high frequencies; not what you want with computer tapes. Recording with Dolby on and playing back with Dolby off should probably work; high frequencies will be louder than normal. >For PET (and family) tapes a C2N would probably make a good cassette >machine for playing it initially, since it does some of the signal >restoration itself. Better might be to use a high-end tape deck (maybe a three-head unit) since the transport should give less wow & flutter. -- Mark From red at bears.org Wed Dec 2 16:18:46 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > I'm going to see if anything is happening on either of the serial ports in > the meanwhile. Ok, I connected the RS232/RS422 port (which I took to be the primary port) of the Aviion to a serial port on my NeXTcube and got this: obelix% tip ttyb9600 connected NVBATLOW obelix% which I take to mean the NVRAM battery is low. On a SPARCstation, this is a catastrophic-but-repairable problem. This is the only thing I see. There is no obvious battery inside, although there is a socketed RTC chip and some sort of socketed Toshiba chip with what appears to be a speed rating (-15) near it. I can't seem to even get a hardware monitor (not that I know how to interrupt it to get one or anything). What's the prognosis? ok r. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 2 16:52:18 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: from "R. Stricklin" at Dec 2, 98 05:18:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1125 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981202/fa418c5e/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at freegate.com Wed Dec 2 17:20:08 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: FT: DEC Dual RX01 Unit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19981202151829.00a786b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> I am looking to trade a dual RX01 drive unit in fair condition for a 4K word PDP-8/e/m/f core stack (three board G104, G227, H220). If you are interested let me know. --Chuck From red at bears.org Wed Dec 2 17:23:27 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > If the RTC chip is much taller than the other chips on the mainboard (say > about 3/8" high) then it probably contains an internal battery. Dallas > and Mostek/SGS-Thomson made chips like that. It is. I forget offhand who made it, though. Would it be powering the NVRAM, though? On a SPARCstation you actually have to replace the NVRAM chip itself. I guess it couldn't hurt to try to replace it. > You're supposed to replace the chip when the battery fails (after about > 10 years). I have heard of people carefully slicing the top off the > package and replacing the lithium cell inside, but I've not had to do > this myself - yet. It isn't inconceivable; the machine was made in the middle of 1991, so it's probably about time. It looks a lot like a standard part. I'll have to try to source one. > Otherwise the battery could be just about anywhere inside the machine. There is defintely no obvious battery inside. It'd have to be in one of the chips. Since it's almost all small 14-18 pin DIPs and RAM chips, I'm willing to bet the chip containing the battery (if it turns out to be other than the RTC) should be easy to find. ok r. From ai705 at osfn.org Wed Dec 2 17:52:03 1998 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: Possible Rescue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Fresh from an Atari 8-bit mailing list. In Binghamton, NY. Note the restrictions. Naive though they may be, at least his heart is in the right place. Do not contact me. Use the email address in the quoted note below. ******************************************************************** Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:39:18 -0500 From: jmagacs@ALTAVISTA.NET Reply to: INFO-ATARI8@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU To: INFO-ATARI8@VM.MARIST.EDU Subject: This will make some 8-bitter's Christmas Wish come true I am a formerly-avid 8-bitter who finally moved on to a Power Macintosh after 14 years of Atari. My wife won't let me keep my Atari stuff. While I could probably make a little money by selling it piece-meal, I don't want the hassle. Instead I'd like to give it for free to a worthy Atari 8-bit user group (do any still exist?) or a dedicated 8-bit enthusiast. My only restrictions are: 1. The recipient must take everything. There's too much to ship (15 boxes!) so they have to pick it up in the Binghamton, NY area (probably using a van). 2. The recipient can not sell anything received from my collection. Since I gave it away for free, anything the recipient does not keep must in turn be given away for free. All subsequent recipients must also abide by this requirement. The collection of Atari 8-bit stuff includes the following (and more): 1. 5 800 XLs (one NEW in foam). 4 power supplies 2. 1 800/48K (very nice condition) - no power supply 3. 5 1050 disk drives (2 with ICD 1050 doubler upgrade) 4. 2 NEW 1050 drive mechanisms. One non-working 1050 drive mechanism with an uninstalled timing LED that may fix it. 5. 1 MIO/256K - serial port non-functional. RAM-disk works fine. 6. 1 Taxan monitor with separate chroma/lumina input. 7. 1020 plotter with a BAGFULL of replacement pens. 8. 1030 modem and a Hayes 2400 baud modem. 9. XMM801 dot-matrix printer 10. 2 NEW light pens 11. Animation Station touch-tablet 12. 4 track balls. 2 Atari pro-line joysticks. 2 original Atari joysticks. Paddle controller. Driving Controller (never found a game that used it). 13. NEW RT-8 clock cartridge 14. Unassembled SIO2PC kit with software. 15. A HUGE assortment of software. Both productivity (all the First XLent titles), NewStation, PrintShop, C compilers, Forth, Atari Macro Assembler, Assembler Editor, all the ICD assemblers and languages. 2 copies of Sparta DOS X, etc., and lots of games (including Flight Simulator cart and two scenery disks). Most are in original packaging. Also a lot of loose cartridges and three cases of floppies. 16. Lots of books. 17. COMPLETE collection of Antic magazine. ANALOG from early 1985 to end. COMPUTE from early 1985 to end. Most of Atari Explorer. 18. Lots of documentation, Xeroxed articles, etc. about Atari 8-bits. If you're interested in getting all this great stuff subject to the above-stated restrictions, please email me: jmagacs@altavista.net ********************* From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Dec 2 18:02:29 1998 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981202190229.00947ab0@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) had spoken clearly: >On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > >> If the RTC chip is much taller than the other chips on the mainboard (say >> about 3/8" high) then it probably contains an internal battery. Dallas >> and Mostek/SGS-Thomson made chips like that. > >It is. I forget offhand who made it, though. Would it be powering the >NVRAM, though? On a SPARCstation you actually have to replace the NVRAM >chip itself. I guess it couldn't hurt to try to replace it. If the markings are for a Dallas 12887(a) then the NVRAM is integrated with the clock chip & battery. To my knowledge, the closest person to being world-famous for changing a Dallas battery would be Dr. Marty Goodman, of CoCo fame. IIRC, he's a member of a mailing list gatewayed to the newsgroup bit.listserv.coco, so if you send a message there, he should eventually get it (along with everyone else on the gatewayed list, so pose it as a CoCo-ish question... tho CoCoists (IMHO) aren't quite as rabid as some other platform gurus...) >> You're supposed to replace the chip when the battery fails (after about >> 10 years). I have heard of people carefully slicing the top off the >> package and replacing the lithium cell inside, but I've not had to do >> this myself - yet. If it is a Dallas 12887 (without the "A" suffix), I can tell you this: beware of the Dallas 12887. The 12887 has one shortcoming: the NVRAM *cannot* be reset via external means, which means if whatever machine has fouled the NVRAM so badly it can't boot, it'll *never* boot again without replacing the chip itself. Some PC's used this chip, and said machines are a thorn-in-the-side when their NVRAM settings go haywire. IIRC, the Dallas 12887A is pin compatible, and *does* have an NVRAM reset pin... I also know that you can get all the pin info & other stuff from Dallas's website, which is slightly confusing at: http://www.dalsemi.com/ Watch out, tho: All their datasheets are in PDF format, so you'll want to grab Adobe's Acrobat reader to view the sheets with. The page with all of their PDF's for their chips is: http://www.dalsemi.com/DocControl/PDFs/pdfindex.html Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From Dean.Nelson at lmco.com Wed Dec 2 17:57:23 1998 From: Dean.Nelson at lmco.com (Dean A. Nelson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: FORSALE(Bids): uVaxes,Monitors,Network,DG Aviions + FREE STUFF In-Reply-To: <000b01be1c93$504cc010$2893f6c6@eng1> Message-ID: <000301be1e4f$83217450$2893f6c6@eng1> Here are the current bids on my computer stuff: If you want to bid, do so by friday. No reasonable offer will be rejected. ----MICRO VAXES and DG Aviions----------- VaxStation 3100 M76, 32MB Ram (Model VS43A-CY) $75 Vax Server 3100, 16MB Ram (Model DJ-31ESA-A-A01) $75 MicroVax 3100-40, 16MB Ram ( Model 450ZM-B9-A01) $100 Data General Aviion Model AV 410 64mb (DG/UX) $50 Data General Aviion Model AV 410 64mb (Boots to HW) NO BID -----MONITORS-------- DEC 19" - Model VR299-DA (Works) $50 DEC 19" - Model VR299-DA (Works) NO BIDS Data General 17" Trinitron GDM-1601 (works) NO BIDS -----Network Bridges---------- Vitalink VX350 4 port/V.35 Ethernet NO BIDS Vitalink TRANSlan 350 8 port/V.35 Ethernet NO BIDS -----KEYBOARDS--------- 8 DEC LK201 keyboards NO BIDS ------FREE STUFF (you just pay the shipping)--------------- Core Intl Hard Drive Model: AT72 (72MB) UP FOR GRABS 19" rack mount hard drive enclosures w/ps TAKEN Desktop hard drive chassis for 2 full height drives. UP FOR GRABS 19" Modem rack with 8 modems (2400 baud) UP FOR GRABS ------------------- Contact: For any Questions during the day: Dean dot Nelson at LMCO dot COM To send a bid or questions: DeanNelson at AOL dot Com From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com Wed Dec 2 18:31:12 1998 From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: Possible Rescue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Stephen Dauphin wrote: > Fresh from an Atari 8-bit mailing list. In Binghamton, NY. Note the > restrictions. Naive though they may be, at least his heart is in the > right place. Do not contact me. Use the email address in the quoted note > below. Ya, I'll look for the stuff on eBay in a couple of weeks... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 2 18:46:08 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: from "R. Stricklin" at Dec 2, 98 06:23:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 848 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981203/f93182ae/attachment.ksh From cdrmool at interlog.com Wed Dec 2 18:50:20 1998 From: cdrmool at interlog.com (cdrmool@interlog.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: 3M silentwriter model 1483? Message-ID: Anyone know the story behind this? Its a small keyboard connected to a small thermal paper printer. It has an old 70's style phone jack (at least the kind we used in Ontario Canada) coming out the back of the printer. My father who found it says he thinks its one of the early devices used by the deaf. I think it was probably just a simple terminal. Whose right? who gets to carve the christmas turkey this year? colan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 2 18:52:06 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981202190229.00947ab0@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Dec 2, 98 07:02:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1298 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981203/6f95d4d4/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Wed Dec 2 18:56:12 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: 3M silentwriter model 1483? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You're both right. TTY's were used both as remote computer terminals and as means for communication for the deaf. -- Doug On Wed, 2 Dec 1998 cdrmool@interlog.com wrote: > Anyone know the story behind this? Its a small keyboard connected to a > small thermal paper printer. It has an old 70's style phone jack > (at least the kind we used in Ontario Canada) coming out the back of the > printer. My father who found it says he thinks its one of the early > devices used by the deaf. I think it was probably just a simple > terminal. > Whose right? who gets to carve the christmas turkey this year? > > colan > > > From ArfonRG at Texas.Net Wed Dec 2 19:16:40 1998 From: ArfonRG at Texas.Net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: Model II software... Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981202191640.009c6cf0@texas.net> Hey guys..... I have a bunch of TRS-80 Model II 8" software discs with original programs on them..... Anyone have a clue as to how to Archive them????? "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Dec 2 19:44:36 1998 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981202204436.0095c220@mail.30below.com> Once upon a midnight dreary, Tony Duell had spoken clearly: >> CoCo-ish question... tho CoCoists (IMHO) aren't quite as rabid as some >> other platform gurus...) > >Speak for yourself. _I_ grew up hacking the coco and I was rabid enough >to be one of the few people in the UK to have a CoCo3. Still have it. >Still love OS-9. But I'm not on the CoCo mailing list (too many machines, >too many mailing lists, my mail is bad enough as it is...) Oh, my CoCo3 is still set up in my office, next to "Goon" (my Clone -- hey, I just thought of this: I know a lot of folks who call BMW cars "bimmers"... would IBM clones rightly be called "bummers"??? ;-). My CoCo2 is still set up back at my "hacker" workbench, with the EPROM programmer (hopefully) eternally affixed to it's cartridge port -- the keyboard felt like someone dumped Pepsi & sand in it... rebuilt it; now it's one of the nicest CoCo keyboards I own. My CoCo1 is set up in my bedroom set up to the Plug-n-Power, and controls some of the lights in my house. Oh, and kiddies, cover your eyes: "Gates be damned... all of my CoCos now have Extended Basic... Couldn't buy it at RS, so what else am I gonna use my EPROMS for??? ;-) Besides, I do own more copies (I have 4 more CoCos) than I use at one time... just not in the right boxes! However, on the CoCo lists I've been on over the years, if a CoCoNut had an Amiga, he wouldn't get receive a second port to his/her posterior... many of the Amigans I've met, while generally wholesome individuals, were quite "ahem... less than goodnatured" when the found out an Amiga was not your sole platform. Of course, this is only my experience, and nowadays it doesn't seem like that anymore... so YMMV, and all that jazz. Just my obversations & opinions... AAMAF, I'm looking to acquire an Amiga 1200 & lotsa stuff with it, and have received a great deal of help from others lately on advice of this new, uncharted universe (well, for me...) >> If it is a Dallas 12887 (without the "A" suffix), I can tell you this: >> beware of the Dallas 12887. The 12887 has one shortcoming: the NVRAM >> *cannot* be reset via external means, which means if whatever machine has > >Do you mean the chip can get into a state where normal writes to the chip >fail, or that there's no way of clearing the chip other than by writing >to it. The latter could prevent a PC from booting, but if you remove the >chip and zero it in a programmer, then it would probably be OK. I was speaking of the latter, but how many "bummer" owners have a programmer that can successfully write to that chip? Ahhh... wait... this is Tony. O.K. -- How many _beginner / novice / PC only_ "bummer" owners.... etc. Outside of this list, I don't know of anyone who could diagnose a problem relating to this chip; and I'm not sure that any of the programmers _I_ own could successfully zero this chip, either. (Sorry to be down on this, but I deal day-in-and-out with folks who call me with: Them: "I couldn't get my Internet running..." Me: "Did you right click on [insert gizmo here]" Them: "What's a right-click?" Me: "That's when you push the right button of the mouse" Them: "What's a mouse?" :-/ ) Most of the folks I deal with don't know PCB stands for "Printed Circuit Board" let alone "Poly-Chlorinated Biphenyls" (toxic flame retardant). Just my (pessimistic) opinion... ;-) See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 2 19:47:23 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: Model II software... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981202191640.009c6cf0@texas.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > Hey guys..... > I have a bunch of TRS-80 Model II 8" software discs with original programs > on them..... Anyone have a clue as to how to Archive them????? Are they TRS-DOS? CP/M? (RS? Pickles and Trout?(not the same fish as Jason's), or other?) Xenix? (actually, that would be model 16, but a II could be converted...)) -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 2 19:58:56 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: Replacing battery in "clock chip" (Was DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981202190229.00947ab0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Roger Merchberger wrote: > If the markings are for a Dallas 12887(a) then the NVRAM is integrated with > the clock chip & battery. To my knowledge, the closest person to being > world-famous for changing a Dallas battery would be Dr. Marty Goodman, of > CoCo fame. IIRC, he's a member of a mailing list gatewayed to the newsgroup > bit.listserv.coco, so if you send a message there, he should eventually get > it (along with everyone else on the gatewayed list, so pose it as a > CoCo-ish question... tho CoCoists (IMHO) aren't quite as rabid as some > other platform gurus...) martygoodman@delphi.com His mother died recently, so he is flitting back and forth between Pinhole and Brooklyn trying to arrange care for his father, etc. Therefore, his "punctuality" in such projects will be further compromised. Don't you just love it when they solder in that chip? -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 2 20:04:41 1998 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: 3M silentwriter model 1483? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Dec 1998 cdrmool@interlog.com wrote: > Anyone know the story behind this? Its a small keyboard connected to a > small thermal paper printer. It has an old 70's style phone jack > (at least the kind we used in Ontario Canada) coming out the back of the > printer. My father who found it says he thinks its one of the early > devices used by the deaf. I think it was probably just a simple > terminal. > Whose right? who gets to carve the christmas turkey this year? > colan TDDs (Telecommunication Device for the Deaf), aka TTY, ARE just a simple terminal. However, they have (with few exceptions) stuck with Baudot (Murray), while everyone else upgraded to ASCII. What speed is it? What code? What protocol? -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From foxnhare at goldrush.com Wed Dec 2 20:16:40 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: Audio Cassette formats; Copy protection? References: <199812020802.AAA23153@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3665F487.2F2D9966@goldrush.com> > From: Philip.Belben@pgen.com > Subject: Re: Audio Cassette formats; Copy protection? > > >::There are plenty of ways of preventing a BASIC program from being > listed. > >::Dunno how you prevent it being saved (and say 'BAD PROGRAM'), but I > could > >::probably figure it out given time... Anyone else? The popular (quick) way was to put an RTS in the second cassette buffer with a SYS in the code pointing to it. (on the PET) and save the program from that to the end using the MLM. Then if someone SAVEs it regular and tries it it just crashes. The most ingenious PET protection was to put a bit of code in the FIRST cassette buffer, so you had to save it from the second cassette port using the MLM to make a runnable copy. Second would be to plug a bit of code into the chargot (I think) routine in low memory which will trick the computer in running the program once loaded (this could easily be bypassed on the PET, but on the 64, it was pretty fool-proof. On the 64 if you can get to the vectors before the user can try SAVing, you change the jump address for SAVE (locations 818,819) to your own location. > > On the 64, you could type > > > > 10 remL > > > > (rem, then a shifted-L) > > > > and LIST will stop up with a ?SYNTAX ERROR when it hits that line. > Rather > > easy to defeat but annoying as heck. :-) > > Same on Basic 2 PETS. On BASIC 1 you used shift-K. The character varys on the computer. I think Transactor or Compute did a table of em once. > Possibility that I thought of, but didn't try. Make the initial line a v. > high line number (>63999). Have the program start rem L, then disable the > stop key, then poke that line number to something smaller. Bit harder to > defeat but won't deter the determined cracker. > > Mean trick I did use. In the middle of a subroutine I entered the line > > REM@TURN > > I then found the @ sign and poked the location with 20 (ctrl-T, the PET > backspace) > > This now lists as RETURN but does nothing... So was this to twart those modifying the code, or tracing it?... Oh... add a REM shift-l after it, once the 'fix' it it still doesn't work. Only problem with the delete character is if you list to a printer they will all show up. > > Philip. That same PET program had an ingenious listing protection too, the first two lines were only listable and they were effectively masked by rems with a bunch of delete characters. What the programmer did was break the line links after the second line so the computer thought it was a two line program. But when run the two lines restored the link via POKEs, once it was running past that point, it restored the line break. If you are curious to see this marvel in action it is on-line; check out my Flash Attack page and download either of the PET versions, this was written by Tim Stryker years before he founded Galacticomm. From bill_r at inetnebr.com Wed Dec 2 20:31:53 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: FS: Viking "Moniterm" 21 inch monochrome monitor and micro-channel video card Message-ID: <369af7c1.1384827126@insight> For sale at www.ebay.com: Viking "Moniterm" 21 inch monochrome monitor and Viking "Moniterm" high-res monochrome video card for the micro-channel (PS/2) bus. eBay item #46309964 http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=46309964 Also throwing in an Apparat memory expansion card for the original IBM PC/XT. -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.) From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Wed Dec 2 21:22:44 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: VAX collectors attention In-Reply-To: <007f01be1ccd$07a3c7c0$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic .edu.au> Message-ID: <4.1.19981203142003.008efec0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 12:20 PM 01-12-98 +1030, Geoff Roberts wrote: >Hierarchical Storage Controller. >Waist high filing cabinet sized box, HEAVY too. >Basically, it's a PDP8 I think, running a little o/s called CRONIC >(Colorado Rudimentary Operating Nucleus for Intelligent Controllers) PDP-11 >Pretty much obsolete now. There was a slightly more sophisticated version >called a HSC70 >that used RX floppys instead of the tapes, and could handle more drives, >etc. The -70 had many advantages, speed of booting being the most interesting. Increased data access speeds when booted was also and advantage :-) There were HSC-90s as well, which had a SCSI option card to allow you to attach expensive SCSI disks to an expensive HSC to an expensive VAX (or alpha).... >I think there were a couple of models after that too. I've seen a HSC70 at >a scrap dealer recently. Excuse me, I've still got one in production and a couple of spares in my "spares" room.... >Allison or one of the other Master Decologists will doubtless correct any >mistakes in the above. :^) Well I'm not Allison :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Dec 2 21:25:00 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: 3M silentwriter model 1483? In-Reply-To: 's message of Wed, 2 Dec 1998 19:50:20 -0500 (EST) References: Message-ID: <199812030325.TAA00404@daemonweed.reanimators.org> wrote: > Anyone know the story behind this? Its a small keyboard connected to a > small thermal paper printer. It has an old 70's style phone jack > (at least the kind we used in Ontario Canada) coming out the back of the > printer. My father who found it says he thinks its one of the early > devices used by the deaf. I think it was probably just a simple > terminal. Silentwriter or Whisperwriter? I think I remember the 3M flavor having the latter name. I played with one of them back in 1983 or 1984. That one had a keyboard connected to a thermal printer by some sort of cord (they were separate boxes), and I think an RJ11 phone jack for a POTS line. As I recall it was an ASCII terminal plus modem with a memory buffer that could be used for offline composition, and it came to us recommended as a tool for composing and sending Telexes via Western Union's Easylink service. (We sent it back and made an HP150 do the job.) I don't remember if it could be made to do other codes than ASCII. More recently (early 1990s), I've seen one with a little CRT (again in a separate box) used as a Telex terminal, but didn't inquire to find out how it was connected or what was on the other end of the connection. -Frank McConnell From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Wed Dec 2 21:28:11 1998 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: VAX collectors attention In-Reply-To: <199812010325.WAA00382@pechter.dyn.ml.org> References: <981130212817.2de00192@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19981203142347.00b72280@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 10:25 PM 30-11-98 -0500, Bill Pechter wrote: >I thought the 8600's used Pro350's when I worked on them. >Some of the later 8000 series used Pro380's, I was told. The 8600s had an 11/0x (for some value of x, probably 4) which lived in the same Unibus box as the VAX Unibus peripherals. Nautilus class machines 85xx, 8700 and 8800 had Pro consoles 350s and 380s. The later model 88xx systems used MicroVAX-IIs as a console. I no longer have any 8xxx class machines, but I still have all the consoles (they are _much_ easier to store :-)) I had this theory that Digital used excess systems as consoles and as they ran out of a particular type, created a new system to use the next set of redundant hardware... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green" From manney at lrbcg.com Wed Dec 2 21:39:00 1998 From: manney at lrbcg.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:52 2005 Subject: Wanted -- Apple IIGS keys Message-ID: <01be1e6e$77312d60$01bfbfbf@toshiba-115cs> Did you ever dig out the right arrow keycap? Thanks manney >Yeah, it would. I have my old GS keyboard that's suspiciously dead (I think it >was christened by the cat) if all you need is keycaps. >-- >Jim Strickland >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Dec 2 22:02:14 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Now VERY *OT* (hit delete now): RE: networking newbie Message-ID: <199812030402.AA03221@world.std.com> < > costs. The user base however could never work with linux(unix). < < How wrong you are, Allison. How wrong you are. < < My friend is running Linux on his home PC, but if you didn't know any < better (and if you didn't look close enough) you'd swear he was running < Windows 95. The fact is that his desktop might as well BE Win95, becaus < it is stolen from the look & feel of Win95. Its called the Star Office Will it run paradox for windows, does the email work like outlook? Does netscapr for linux look and feel like the windorers version? I understand this user base was slow to accept and use computers. It's important as *I* support the user base, maintain the systems and create (or install) new applications and train the users, not *we*. It's not a rant on linux, The comments I made were to the effect of being impartial. If I had my way they'd be on OpenVMS. < Suite. Find yourself a copy and install it on your Linux box. You'll How much? Reply off line on this. < never boot Win95 again. You'll never need to. I never boot it here but work is a different case. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Dec 2 22:02:21 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Now VERY *OT* (hit delete now): RE: networking newbie Message-ID: <199812030402.AA03276@world.std.com> < There really isn't a good "open source" GUI alternative to Windows yet, < the best approach for now is to emulate the Win32 API on top of Linux t And when there is MS will change the API. < But, you're right, I find it much easier to sneak Linux into the server < side of a corporation than into the client/desktop side. Maybe if Java < performance and look+feel improve another order of magnitude, that won' < be as much of an issue. there is potential there but only if none of the apps used run on the server. It'd be easy to put a linux box online as a data sink. I may do it unofficially and try it before trying to migrate anything from the general user community. Oh, what I run on "my" desk is up to me but for many reasons win95 and nt will have to be there but I can have a Linux system too. Allison From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Dec 2 22:08:00 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Wanted -- Apple IIGS keys In-Reply-To: <01be1e6e$77312d60$01bfbfbf@toshiba-115cs> from "PG Manney" at Dec 02, 1998 10:39:00 PM Message-ID: <199812030408.VAA15287@calico.litterbox.com> Ack! A thousand pardons, I completely spaced it. I've been jamming to get my thesis first rev out. I'll get it in the mail hopefully tomorrow. -Jim> > Did you ever dig out the right arrow keycap? > > Thanks > manney > > > > +AD4-Yeah, it would. I have my old GS keyboard that's suspiciously dead (I > think it > +AD4-was christened by the cat) if all you need is keycaps. > +AD4--- > +AD4-Jim Strickland > +AD4-jim+AEA-DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > +AD4------------------------------------------------------------------------ > +AD4-Vote Meadocrat+ACE- Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? > +AD4------------------------------------------------------------------------ > +AD4- > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From siconic at jasmine.psyber.com Wed Dec 2 22:22:24 1998 From: siconic at jasmine.psyber.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Osborne for sale (fwd) Message-ID: Please reply to the original sender if interested. Reply-to: siiqa@earthlink.net Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@verio.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details [Last web page update: 11/02/98] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 09:55:10 -0600 From: Russ McDonald To: "'vcf@vintage.org'" Subject: Osborne for sale Dear sir: I have Osborne 1 with all documentation including Personal Pearl, Word Sar, Supercalc, Dbase 2 . Machine still runs and is in excellent shape, that I would like to sell. Russ McDonald rmac@mitec.net From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Dec 2 22:54:24 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Now VERY *OT* (hit delete now): RE: networking newbie In-Reply-To: <199812030402.AA03221@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Dec 2, 98 11:02:14 pm Message-ID: <199812030454.UAA02703@saul7.u.washington.edu> > < How wrong you are, Allison. How wrong you are. > < it is stolen from the look & feel of Win95. Its called the Star Office > Will it run paradox for windows, does the email work like outlook? Does > netscapr for linux look and feel like the windorers version? I This thread seems to have degenerated in an argument about completely MODERN (i.e., non-classic) operating systems. Isn't it also happening in newsgroups, like alt.folklore.computers (which I also read)? Go bug them or something. :) -- Derek From donm at cts.com Wed Dec 2 22:59:18 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Model II software... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981202191640.009c6cf0@texas.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > Hey guys..... > > I have a bunch of TRS-80 Model II 8" software discs with original programs > on them..... Anyone have a clue as to how to Archive them????? Well, it depends on what you mean by archive. Also, whether you simply want to save the programs or an image of a bootable disk. Then there is also the matter of what the format of the disks is. (Does that mean it depends on what the meaning of "is" is?) First, you obviously need an 8" drive connected to a PC. (See the CP/M FAQ for the connections.) Then, if you want to get the image to other than 8" disks, you can transfer the disk image to 5.25" HD using Sydex' AnaDisk, irrespective of whether it is TRSDOS or CP/M. If CP/M, Sydex' 22Disk will permit copying the files to the media of your choice. If TRSDOS, I draw a blank. If your intent is to archive disk images to hard disk storage, the only program that I am aware of that will do this is Sydex' TeleDisk. It has been off shareware for about six years, but there are still copies about. Of course, there is a commercial version available for $150. This just touches the high points, but may give you some ideas. - don > "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build > bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce > bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook > > From red at bears.org Wed Dec 2 23:15:06 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > If the RTC chip is much taller than the other chips on the mainboard (say > about 3/8" high) then it probably contains an internal battery. Dallas > and Mostek/SGS-Thomson made chips like that. Here are the two likely candidates: (date code) ST 99045 MK48T02B-15 TIMEKEEPER (tm) RAM DO NOT DISPOSE IN FIRE The ST part of the above is a logo. If I recognized it I'd have mentioned the actual name of the manufacturer. (: The other possibility is this: TOSHIBA Japan TC541000P-15 VPP 12.5V (date code) > Otherwise the battery could be just about anywhere inside the machine. Unlikely. The machine is a pizzabox configuration, with the entirety of the mainboard in plain view. There isn't even mounting hardware for an internal drive. There's just _nothing_ in the box. ok r. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Dec 2 23:45:55 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: 3M silentwriter model 1483? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Dec 1998 cdrmool@interlog.com wrote: > Anyone know the story behind this? Its a small keyboard connected to a > small thermal paper printer. It has an old 70's style phone jack > (at least the kind we used in Ontario Canada) coming out the back of the > printer. My father who found it says he thinks its one of the early > devices used by the deaf. I think it was probably just a simple > terminal. Does this have a light brown and white motif? Keys are brown? I have a picture of this in a data processing book I just picked up that shows a woman typing on it. She doesn't look blind. There's also an acoustically coupled modem attached with a phone handset plug into it. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 11/02/98] From mbg at world.std.com Wed Dec 2 23:50:03 1998 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: VAX collectors attention References: <981130212817.2de00192@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <199812030550.AA11679@world.std.com> >The 8600s had an 11/0x (for some value of x, probably 4) which lived in >the same Unibus box as the VAX Unibus peripherals. Nautilus class >machines 85xx, 8700 and 8800 had Pro consoles 350s and 380s. The later >model 88xx systems used MicroVAX-IIs as a console. I no longer have any >8xxx class machines, but I still have all the consoles (they are _much_ >easier to store :-)) The 11/780 used an 11/03. I think the 8600 used a T-11 with a somewhat strange memory management setup which wasn't part of normal T-11s. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From yowza at yowza.com Wed Dec 2 23:52:20 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: 3M silentwriter model 1483? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Does this have a light brown and white motif? Keys are brown? I have a > picture of this in a data processing book I just picked up that shows a > woman typing on it. She doesn't look blind. There's also an acoustically > coupled modem attached with a phone handset plug into it. She doesn't look blind? Wrong sense organ, Sam. -- Doug From hydros_by_hall at csi.com Thu Dec 3 00:07:46 1998 From: hydros_by_hall at csi.com (Richard A. Hall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 In-Reply-To: <365996DB.A7BDA86C@rain.org> References: <981123112426.2a2002ef@trailing-edge.com> <365996DB.A7BDA86C@rain.org> Message-ID: <366629f7.50319838@smtp.site1.csi.com> I recently picked up a Compaq SLT/286 and would like to purchase any documentation for it. Anybody have docs for a reasonable price? Thanks, Richard Hall Apple II educational software http://members.xoom.com/AV_Systems From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 3 00:15:45 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: (red@bears.org) References: Message-ID: <19981203061545.25962.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Here are the two likely candidates: > > (date code) > ST 99045 > MK48T02B-15 > TIMEKEEPER (tm) RAM > DO NOT DISPOSE IN FIRE > > The ST part of the above is a logo. If I recognized it I'd have mentioned > the actual name of the manufacturer. SGS-Thomson. The MK is a Mostek prefix; SGS-Thomson bought Mostek from United Technologies some years back. Now SGS-Thomson has changed their name to STMicro. In any case, the 48T02 should be pretty easy to find as it is a very common device. > The other possibility is this: > > TOSHIBA Japan > TC541000P-15 > VPP 12.5V (date code) Are you sure that's not a TC571000? I thought the TC54xxx parts were usually DRAMs, which wouldn't have a VPP. EPROMs would have VPP, but I think they generally have TC57xxx numbers. In either case, this isn't the part you're looking for. Eric From cdrmool at interlog.com Thu Dec 3 00:16:43 1998 From: cdrmool at interlog.com (cdrmool@interlog.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: 3M silentwriter model 1483? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As to speed, protocol, etc. I won't know until I either find some documentation or get a chance to change the phone jack to try it out. Thanks Colan On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Wed, 2 Dec 1998 cdrmool@interlog.com wrote: > > Anyone know the story behind this? Its a small keyboard connected to a > > small thermal paper printer. It has an old 70's style phone jack > > (at least the kind we used in Ontario Canada) coming out the back of the > > printer. My father who found it says he thinks its one of the early > > devices used by the deaf. I think it was probably just a simple > > terminal. > > Whose right? who gets to carve the christmas turkey this year? > > colan > > TDDs (Telecommunication Device for the Deaf), aka TTY, ARE just a simple > terminal. However, they have (with few exceptions) stuck with Baudot > (Murray), while everyone else upgraded to ASCII. > > What speed is it? > What code? > What protocol? > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > From cdrmool at interlog.com Thu Dec 3 00:20:40 1998 From: cdrmool at interlog.com (cdrmool@interlog.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: 3M silentwriter model 1483? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, thats the one. Theres no acoustic modem attatched. This looks like its internal. Rats, I'd love to play with an acoustic modem again. I'd have to drag out the old phone though... thanks Colan > > Does this have a light brown and white motif? Keys are brown? I have a > picture of this in a data processing book I just picked up that shows a > woman typing on it. She doesn't look blind. There's also an acoustically > coupled modem attached with a phone handset plug into it. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 11/02/98] > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Dec 3 00:45:40 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > (date code) > ST 99045 > MK48T02B-15 > TIMEKEEPER (tm) RAM > DO NOT DISPOSE IN FIRE ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This says it all. You never want to throw a battery into an open fire, unless you want an explosion. I say throw it in an open fire. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 11/02/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Dec 3 00:46:26 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: 3M silentwriter model 1483? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Wed, 2 Dec 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > Does this have a light brown and white motif? Keys are brown? I have a > > picture of this in a data processing book I just picked up that shows a > > woman typing on it. She doesn't look blind. There's also an acoustically > > coupled modem attached with a phone handset plug into it. > > She doesn't look blind? Wrong sense organ, Sam. Uh, she doesn't taste blind? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 11/02/98] From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Dec 3 01:20:12 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Auction Results, Birman's, ??? Message-ID: Did anyone go to the Birman's Diversified Auction, I think on Tuesday, to see what VAX stuff was there? I am interested in how the sale went and what kind of prices things brought. Please reply to me at Whoagiii@aol.com. Thanks, Paxton From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Dec 3 01:32:01 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Any Zilog 8000 collectors out there. Message-ID: While rummaging through the back corner of the whse I stumbled across a bare Zilog 8000 card cage with a full complement of cards. Circa 1983 Mfg. Every slot full. This would be a great backup card set or a way to get a non-working Zilog up and running. I also have an extra memory card beyond that. I also discovered a Daisy Logician Card Multibus cage and cards also. I doubt anyone is collecting these though. If interested please reply to whoagiii@aol.com directly. Thanks for the list, Paxton From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Dec 3 02:08:21 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Dec RC25 offered Message-ID: I have a Dec RC25-AA Rev C1 with one RC25K-DC disk pack that I am listing on the DDA Tradeloop mailer. It is a desktop disk subsystem with a 26 Mb fixed disk and a 26 Mb. removable cartridge disk. It is in good condition. with one disk pack and the Users Guide. It connects to a KLESI controller, either Unibus or Qbus, which I do not have. I am open to all offers. Shipping weight will be about 70 pounds. Please reply to whoagiii@aol.com Thanks, Paxton Hoag Portland, Oregon From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Dec 3 02:35:00 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: Eric Smith "Re: DG Aviion video" (Dec 3, 6:15) References: <19981203061545.25962.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <9812030835.ZM7869@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 3, 6:15, Eric Smith wrote: > Are you sure that's not a TC571000? I thought the TC54xxx parts were usually > DRAMs, which wouldn't have a VPP. No, 57xxxx is stadard EPROM, 54xxxx is one-time PROM. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Dec 3 02:32:31 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: 3M silentwriter model 1483? In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail "Re: 3M silentwriter model 1483?" (Dec 2, 21:45) References: Message-ID: <9812030832.ZM7864@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 2, 21:45, Sam Ismail wrote: > Subject: Re: 3M silentwriter model 1483? > On Wed, 2 Dec 1998 cdrmool@interlog.com wrote: > > > Anyone know the story behind this? Its a small keyboard connected to a > > small thermal paper printer. It has an old 70's style phone jack > > (at least the kind we used in Ontario Canada) coming out the back of the > > printer. My father who found it says he thinks its one of the early > > devices used by the deaf. I think it was probably just a simple > > terminal. > > Does this have a light brown and white motif? Keys are brown? I have a > picture of this in a data processing book I just picked up that shows a > woman typing on it. She doesn't look blind. There's also an acoustically > coupled modem attached with a phone handset plug into it. They were quite popular in the late 70's/early 80's as dial-up terminals in places like libraries. Ours had one to access the Dialog database. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Dec 3 02:31:12 1998 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: "R. Stricklin (kjaeros)" "Re: DG Aviion video" (Dec 3, 0:15) References: Message-ID: <9812030831.ZM7860@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Dec 3, 0:15, R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > Here are the two likely candidates: > > (date code) > ST 99045 > MK48T02B-15 > TIMEKEEPER (tm) RAM > DO NOT DISPOSE IN FIRE That's the same NVRAM/clock chip with built-in lithium battery that was used in several Sun Sparcstations. The Sun hardware FAQ has lots of information on replacing them with the Dallas equivalent, and has information (and pointers to other docs) about opening it up to get at the battery if you want to try using an external battery. > TOSHIBA Japan > TC541000P-15 > VPP 12.5V (date code) That's the same EPROM used by Sparcstations as the boot ROM. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 3 03:44:14 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: <9812030835.ZM7869@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> (pete@dunnington.u-net.com) References: <19981203061545.25962.qmail@brouhaha.com> <9812030835.ZM7869@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <19981203094414.27022.qmail@brouhaha.com> Pete Turnbull writes about Toshiba chips: > No, 57xxxx is stadard EPROM, 54xxxx is one-time PROM. Learn something new every day! It's really aggravating that not only do most semiconductor vendors not have data on their old products on line, but not even a listing with a one line description. From pnt at minster.cs.york.ac.uk Thu Dec 3 04:15:54 1998 From: pnt at minster.cs.york.ac.uk (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video Message-ID: <9812031015.ZM23900@minster.cs.york.ac.uk> Eric Smith wrote: > It's really aggravating that not only do most semiconductor vendors not > have data on their old products on line, but not even a listing with a > one line description. Actually, quite a lot of them do have info (if sometimes well hidden) but some -- Intel comes to mind -- aren't very good about keeping old stuff, and Toshiba are pretty hopeless. I needed some other info from the same data book that those EPROMs are in, a few years ago, and ended up phoning Toshiba to get it. Turns out they stopped making EPROMs about a year before, and no longer had the data sheets themselves! Luckily one particularly helpful customer support person found me what appeared to be the last copy of the Data Book. I was very glad I checked, because there are two common pinouts for EPROMs in that sort of size range. Most manufacturers distinguish them by either using the last four digits in the form "1024" or "1000", or they use "1001" versus "1000". Except Toshiba -- where others used "1000" they used "1001" and vice-versa. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From neil at goodnet.com Thu Dec 3 05:30:25 1998 From: neil at goodnet.com (Neil B. Sheldon Sr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Altair 8800b Front Panel Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981203043025.0072d0e8@207.98.129.100> For sale at ebay.com: Altair - 8800b Front Panel - S100 - (PICS) Item #45501676 http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=45501676 Neil B. Sheldon Sr. Sr. Engineering Technician neil@goodnet.com From fauradon at pclink.com Thu Dec 3 06:11:55 1998 From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 Message-ID: <001001be1eb6$1f1b0c20$dd010bce@francois> Have you looked there? http://www.compaq.com/support/portables/out_of_production/SLT286.html Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ >I recently picked up a Compaq SLT/286 and would like to purchase any >documentation for it. Anybody have docs for a reasonable price? >Thanks, >Richard Hall From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Thu Dec 3 07:39:48 1998 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Recent Finds & Thoughts In-Reply-To: <802566CD.003A653A.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: >>> Possibly. But I distinctly recall that when we recorded tapes for sale >>> using the tape deck from my Sanyo stereo (not on a PET BTW - this was a >BBC >>> micro) we found that Dolby noise reduction had to be disabled for it to >>> work... >> >> Did you try recroding with Dolby and then replaying on a machine with >> Dolby noise reduction (turned on), or replaying on the normal cheap >> cassette recorder that you use with computers? If the former, then I am >> not suprised it didn't work - the frequency response would have been >> rather odd. The latter should have worked, though. > >We didn't try recording with Dolby and playing back without. I'd be very >surprised if that worked (did you mean it that way round). I think it says record with Dolby on and play with Dolby on. >I can't >remember if we recorded with and played back with - I imagine that would >work Should work. Because what Dolby does to the sound it undoes afterwards and you theoretically have a recording closer to the original than normally possible - without the extra hiss due to the recording process. Theoretically you shouldn't lose any hiss from the original. But, even if you did, the computer doesn't really need it. - but we definitely couldn't get it to work recording without and >playing back with, although this actually works quite well for music. I've noticed exactly the opposite. Recording with and playing without gives a 'crisper' sound. But, doing any of these two would be altering the sound. >> I would be suprised if you couldn't make a CD that could be loaded. I >> can't try it because I have no way of writing to a CD. > >I never meant to imply that you couldn't make a CD that could be loaded. >What I meant was you probably have to be more sophisticated than old >cassette -> digitised audio -> audio CD. Why not? If it works for the tape then it will definitely work for the CD. >I'd recommend old cassette -> >signal restoration -> digital signal (0s and 1s sampled at some highish >speed) -> possibly prefilter to pre-emptively undo the CD player's output >filter -> digitised audio -> audio CD. Possibly a better result. If you know what you are doing. Nasos From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Thu Dec 3 07:45:42 1998 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Barely on-topic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >It may not be a fish at all. Missing any underwear or socks? It could also >be a >leftover Tuna salad on rye. Which is a fish, isn't it? ;)= Nasos From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Dec 3 08:55:58 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Audio Cassette formats; Copy protection? In-Reply-To: <3665F487.2F2D9966@goldrush.com> from "Larry Anderson" at Dec 2, 98 06:16:40 pm Message-ID: <199812031455.GAA30676@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1672 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981203/45a793a6/attachment.ksh From amirault at epix.net Thu Dec 3 10:06:53 1998 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Possible Rescue References: Message-ID: <3666B71D.E566C83@epix.net> Stephen, Hi, I live in susquehanna, Pa. and would be willing to come pick this stuff up. Please send me an email to amirault@epix.net Thanks, John Amirault. I am an avid IBM PCjr collector, my brother has an atari system in Casper, Wyo., I think. Stephen Dauphin wrote: > Fresh from an Atari 8-bit mailing list. In Binghamton, NY. Note the > restrictions. Naive though they may be, at least his heart is in the > right place. Do not contact me. Use the email address in the quoted note > below. > > ******************************************************************** > Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:39:18 -0500 > From: jmagacs@ALTAVISTA.NET > Reply to: INFO-ATARI8@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU > To: INFO-ATARI8@VM.MARIST.EDU > Subject: This will make some 8-bitter's Christmas Wish come true > > I am a formerly-avid 8-bitter who finally moved on to a Power Macintosh > after 14 years of Atari. My wife won't let me keep > my Atari stuff. While I could probably make a little money by selling it > piece-meal, I don't want the hassle. Instead I'd > like to give it for free to a worthy Atari 8-bit user group (do any still > exist?) or a dedicated 8-bit enthusiast. > > My only restrictions are: > > 1. The recipient must take everything. There's too much to ship (15 > boxes!) so they have to pick it up in the Binghamton, > NY area (probably using a van). > > 2. The recipient can not sell anything received from my collection. > Since I gave it away for free, anything the recipient > does not keep must in turn be given away for free. All subsequent > recipients must also abide by this requirement. > > The collection of Atari 8-bit stuff includes the following (and more): > 1. 5 800 XLs (one NEW in foam). 4 power supplies > 2. 1 800/48K (very nice condition) - no power supply > 3. 5 1050 disk drives (2 with ICD 1050 doubler upgrade) > 4. 2 NEW 1050 drive mechanisms. One non-working 1050 drive mechanism > with an uninstalled timing LED that may fix it. > 5. 1 MIO/256K - serial port non-functional. RAM-disk works fine. > 6. 1 Taxan monitor with separate chroma/lumina input. > 7. 1020 plotter with a BAGFULL of replacement pens. > 8. 1030 modem and a Hayes 2400 baud modem. > 9. XMM801 dot-matrix printer > 10. 2 NEW light pens > 11. Animation Station touch-tablet > 12. 4 track balls. 2 Atari pro-line joysticks. 2 original Atari > joysticks. Paddle controller. Driving Controller (never > found a game that used it). > 13. NEW RT-8 clock cartridge > 14. Unassembled SIO2PC kit with software. > 15. A HUGE assortment of software. Both productivity (all the First > XLent titles), NewStation, PrintShop, C compilers, > Forth, Atari Macro Assembler, Assembler Editor, all the ICD assemblers > and languages. 2 copies of Sparta DOS X, etc., and > lots of games (including Flight Simulator cart and two scenery disks). > Most are in original packaging. Also a lot of > loose cartridges and three cases of floppies. > 16. Lots of books. > 17. COMPLETE collection of Antic magazine. ANALOG from early 1985 to > end. COMPUTE from early 1985 to end. Most of Atari > Explorer. > 18. Lots of documentation, Xeroxed articles, etc. about Atari 8-bits. > > If you're interested in getting all this great stuff subject to the > above-stated restrictions, please email me: > > jmagacs@altavista.net > ********************* From ArfonRG at Texas.Net Thu Dec 3 10:14:21 1998 From: ArfonRG at Texas.Net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Model II software... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19981202191640.009c6cf0@texas.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981203101421.00929600@texas.net> >Are they TRS-DOS? >CP/M? (RS? Pickles and Trout?(not the same fish as Jason's), or other?) >Xenix? (actually, that would be model 16, but a II could be converted...)) TRSDOS. "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Dec 3 10:54:54 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: OK, I'm stuck. I need a RSTS tape. Message-ID: <13408850358.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I think INIT's corrupt. Specifically, SAVRES. I'm trying to shove the RA81 on a tape. I say SAVRES, from DU0: to MS0:, and it says INITIALIZING FIRST SAVE SET or something along those lines, shoves the tape around for about 45 minutes, then says STARTING SAVE FROM DU0: TO MS0: AT XX:XX AM (or something similar) and hangs there (not doing anything) for a few minutes, after which it traps through 10. (Illegal Instruction, I think...) Does anyone have a RSTS 8.0-07 tape I can suck just INIT off of? Is there any way to do this under timesharing? I don't have BACKUP... Seems someone's removed that too. ------- From John.Dykstra.jdykstra at nt.com Thu Dec 3 12:38:33 1998 From: John.Dykstra.jdykstra at nt.com (John Dykstra) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Any collectors in Minneapolis? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981203123833.0091dbb0@47.161.112.121> >I constantly drool over stuff that's in the Charles Babbage Institute's >archives, but I don't get to Minneapolis very often (OK, I *never* get to >Minneapolis). > >Are there any Minneapolitans (?) out there willing to copy a few goodies >from their archives? I'd pay for copying, shipping, gas, and probably a >coupla bucks more. I can't volunteer, since I'm usually working during the hours the Institute office is open. Anyone thinking of dropping in on the Institute should be aware that their building will be extensively renovated during 1999-2000. Accordingly, they will be in temporary quarters for quite a while, and I suspect much of the collection will be inaccessible during that time. For those unfamiliar with the Babbage Institute, they have a fair amount of material available at . >(besides, what else are you going to do when it's snowing >out?). That's never a problem. I'm always figuring I'll get projects done "during the winter," and I rarely get done with more than a handful of them. :-{ ---- John Dykstra jdykstra@nortelnetworks.com Principal Software Architect voice: +1 651 415-1604 Nortel Networks fax: +1 612 932-8549 From cmcmanis at freegate.com Thu Dec 3 13:56:18 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Auction Results, Birman's, ??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19981203115333.009cd220@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> I usually get there every tuesday. (it is Bermans BTW) Unfortunately they don't tell you what it went for unless you bid on it, and I'm careful now not to bid on something I can't sneak past my wife. However, the clerk said the 8650 went for "about $200" and the disk racks for about $50 each. --Chuck At 02:20 AM 12/3/98 -0500, you wrote: >Did anyone go to the Birman's Diversified Auction, I think on Tuesday, to see >what VAX stuff was there? I am interested in how the sale went and what kind >of prices things brought. Please reply to me at Whoagiii@aol.com. >Thanks, >Paxton From erd at infinet.com Thu Dec 3 13:59:21 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Call for final Elf99 design input In-Reply-To: <199811300326.AA26787@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Nov 29, 98 10:26:40 pm Message-ID: <199812031959.OAA08803@user2.infinet.com> > > The key to the elf design was minimalism and low cost. True. > Substituting a latch and LEDs for a binary display instead of the til311 > is cheaper and more buildable. True, but the TIL's are so cool. > using modern cmos and rams help. At least in terms of not having to dig up 1822/2101's, yes. > The basic elf was far to minimal and frequently expanded to get desired > functions. The basic design did not easily permit that as it didn't > decode memory or IO addresses. Also true. One of it's big limitations. At the time, however, to add even a 4-bit patch and more RAM would have been a major expense, for the RAM, that is. The latch would have been under $1. > The RCA VIP or the 18S020 Evaluation board allowed far more flexibility > with relatively little more logic. Thei cost was they had some rom. I have a picture of that board in my RCA circular. I lusted for one when all I had was an Elf. > This is a reproducable design. UT4 fits in 512byts of a 2716, the rest of > the ram can be done with byte wide parts. The 1852s can be kept and the > rest were common 40xx series. With 4k of ram and UT4 (or similar) > programs like PILOT, TinyBasic, or some of the other neat software with a > terminal. What was the memory map? > A much simplifed machine using 1802, 2 1852, 2 4028, 2 4042, 1 62256, > 1 2716 and 1 6116, some glue logic for reset, run, runp and the same > serial scheme as 18S020 would give 32k of contigious ram, 2k-32byts in the > >8000h area and the remaining 1.5k in the 2716 could hold any number of > things along with the .5k ut4 monitor. This would be a very useful > system that could accomodate expansion for IO (more ram??????). That sounds very much like what I'm designing here. Not identical, but similar. I would need to know lots more before I could even attempt to make it compatible. -ethan From erd at infinet.com Thu Dec 3 14:10:09 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Call for final Elf99 design input In-Reply-To: <19981130152548.58605b69.in@mail.pressstart.com> from "Doug Coward" at Nov 30, 98 03:37:40 pm Message-ID: <199812032010.PAA08983@user2.infinet.com> > > Ethan Dicks said: > >I am cranking along with the capture of the Elf99 design .... > > I just found this thread. This is a great idea and should have been > tried sooner. I'll buy one. Cool. > >Did I miss anything? Any other suggestions? > > The only thing I see missing is the expansion bus connector. > (Did I miss that part?) Not explicitly, but I was thinking of bringing in the signals to the prototyping area in a fashion that was physically compatible with the Elf-II bus standard. > There are hundreds of things that would be nice to have, but it's > important that the design be finished and the boards made. Leave the > bells and whistles to the end users. If you create an Elf that can > address about 2K, has a small prototype area, and has a good > expansion bus, then all things are possible. (Including S-100 interface) > You should copy one of the two Super Elf buses. There are *two*? I only know of the one, not that I could find any 86-pin edge connectors. > > A protoyping area of .1" spaced plated-through holes, nominally > > a few inches long by one or two inches wide. > > A prototype area should be for wirewrapping. I don't see any need > for plated-through holes, and pads are not REALLY necessary either. plated-through holes are cheaper than non-plated-through holes. > The 1861 should be easy to add on later. In the prototype area or hot melted > to the top of another chip. Just make sure it's easy to cut the trace for the > original clock circuit and wire in the new one. The original clock circuit is a crystal attached to the CPU. Presumably, you'd just buy the correct frequency crystal (1.7 something Mhz) -ethan From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Dec 3 11:54:28 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Any Zilog 8000 collectors out there. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981203115428.49370d24@intellistar.net> I think I have a Zilog manual for the Z-8000 if someone needs it. Joe At 02:32 AM 12/3/98 EST, you wrote: >While rummaging through the back corner of the whse I stumbled across a bare >Zilog 8000 card cage with a full complement of cards. Circa 1983 Mfg. Every >slot full. This would be a great backup card set or a way to get a non-working >Zilog up and running. I also have an extra memory card beyond that. > >I also discovered a Daisy Logician Card Multibus cage and cards also. I doubt >anyone is collecting these though. > >If interested please reply to whoagiii@aol.com directly. > >Thanks for the list, >Paxton > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu Dec 3 14:40:24 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 References: <981123112426.2a2002ef@trailing-edge.com> <365996DB.A7BDA86C@rain.org> <366629f7.50319838@smtp.site1.csi.com> Message-ID: <3666F737.3D1FEB35@bigfoot.com> What do you need to know? The memory is a special type SIMM available in 1 or 4mb versions and up to 3 can be added. The video modes can be switched with ALT > and ALT < if you want to hook up an external monitor. The hard drive is a stock IDE 3.5" but only certain capacities will work and it must have the small 3 pin power plug on it to accomodate the power adapter of the machine. I think I used a Seagate ST-3144 120mb drive in my last one and set it for type 26. It does need a setup disk, available at the out of production site at http://www.compaq.com/support/portables/out_of_production/SLT286.html . To open the unit you have to remove the covers on the right side of the hinge (as you sit using it) to gain access to the ground and keyboard connections. Then you remove the 6 screws on the back, remove the battery. Pull the ground and keyboard connections at the cover point out carefully. Then just push the guts out by way of the battery compartment until you have the video cable holding you up. Remove the single screw holding down the cable and then pull the video connector out and swing to the side. Pull the guts fully out where you can work on it. The hard drive and floppy drive are stock types and the removal/installation is a no-brainer. The memory is located under the cover that has the LED's located between the drives in the front of the motherboard. The modem (if installed) has 2 or 3 screws holding it and just pulls out after the screws are removed. The screen is 640x480 VGA monochrome but better results show if you install software as color vga. Many other features such as screen blank are settable by way of the setup disk. So what did you need to know? Drop me a d irect note if you need any further help. Russ Blakeman Harned, KY Richard A. Hall wrote: > I recently picked up a Compaq SLT/286 and would like to purchase any > documentation for it. Anybody have docs for a reasonable price? > Thanks, > Richard Hall > > Apple II educational software http://members.xoom.com/AV_Systems From kurtkilg at geocities.com Thu Dec 3 15:00:57 1998 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 References: <366629f7.50319838@smtp.site1.csi.com> Message-ID: <98120316020302.00293@localhost.localdomain> You should check out Compaq's site, it has some interesting stuff in .PDF format (mostly). That said, if anyone has docs for a Compaq LTE/Lite-25, I'd be glad to buy them too. On Thu, 03 Dec 1998, you wrote: >I recently picked up a Compaq SLT/286 and would like to purchase any >documentation for it. Anybody have docs for a reasonable price? >Thanks, >Richard Hall > > > >Apple II educational software http://members.xoom.com/AV_Systems From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Dec 3 15:08:48 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Call for final Elf99 design input In-Reply-To: <199812032010.PAA08983@user2.infinet.com> (message from Ethan Dicks on Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:10:09 -0500 (EST)) References: <199812032010.PAA08983@user2.infinet.com> Message-ID: <19981203210848.30062.qmail@brouhaha.com> Ethan wrote: > plated-through holes are cheaper than non-plated-through holes. Only on a board that has both. A board with no plated-through holes is cheaper than a board with all plated-through. The plating is an extra manufacturing step. From erd at infinet.com Thu Dec 3 15:43:59 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Call for final Elf99 design input In-Reply-To: <19981203210848.30062.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Dec 3, 98 09:08:48 pm Message-ID: <199812032144.QAA10838@user2.infinet.com> > > Ethan wrote: > > plated-through holes are cheaper than non-plated-through holes. > > Only on a board that has both. Well, yes, that's true. The idea of making a modern board without any plated-through holes is a bit absurd. > A board with no plated-through holes is cheaper than a board with > all plated-through. The plating is an extra manufacturing step. Yes, it's an extra step. Yes, I'm going to do it. Even the Quest Elf from twenty years ago had plated through holes. -ethan From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Dec 3 16:15:35 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: System 36 Peripheral - Heads up Message-ID: <19981203.161619.265.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: This was posted to the NG a week ago-- DOn't know if he still has it. COntact this guy directly . . . . . ********************************************** From: user643249@aol.com (User643249) Newsgroups: misc.forsale.computers.storage Subject: IBM System 36 (50 lb) HD FS Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder03.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 25 Nov 1998 13:58:28 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19981125085828.10541.00000420@ng-ce1.aol.com> Xref: Sn misc.forsale.computers.storage:96713 IBM System 36 HDD , 27 MEG About the size of a tower system and three times as heavy. It does have a clear cover over the heads and disks so they can be observed in operation- if you can get it working which was no mean feat and required a system 36 as the interface is proprietary. It's also missing the drive belt between the auto starter size electrical motor and the pulley/axle of the disks - but an auto fan belt should be about the right size. If you have a use (ie. display , teaching aid, etc) for it let me know - shortly.. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 3 15:54:28 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: Replacing battery in "clock chip" (Was DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 2, 98 05:58:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 178 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981203/ddac2c7b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 3 15:53:10 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981202204436.0095c220@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Dec 2, 98 08:44:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2104 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981203/c6e4e3fc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 3 15:59:59 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: from "R. Stricklin" at Dec 3, 98 00:15:06 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1140 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981203/5863486a/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Thu Dec 3 17:06:26 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > I've had to explain what 'out of paper' means on a printer. And then had > to explain why a printer needs paper (!). Yeah, why does a printer need paper? Talk about an inefficient process: plant seeds, nurture for 20 years, chop down tree, grind to a pulp, form into paper, warehouse, retail, unwrap, feed paper into printer. Why can't I just leave the printer by the window and water it once in a while? -- Doug From red at bears.org Thu Dec 3 17:13:39 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > DO NOT DISPOSE IN FIRE is the biggest clue. It contains a lithium > battery. Burning one of those makes it go bang. I knew that much, at least. I was being silly including it. (: > That's the chip. The 48T02 is still fairly easy to get. Of course check > the datecode.... Can anybody suggest a source? The only one I'm remotely familiar with is Jameco, but they have such byzantine rules for ordering (and a glossy catalogue.. somehow glossy pages in a components catalogue is sleazy) that I'd rather not deal with them. I'll check out Digi-key if I can find the catalogue and nobody jumps up and says, "Eugh! Don't order from THEM.." > Well, that sounds like an EPROM/OTP EPROM. The Vpp 12.5v means that the > programming voltage is 12.5V, a common value for modern EPROMS. That makes sense. Let's hope I didn't fry it when I dropped it on the carpet. It's been raining here for months though so the air is definitely damp enough that I don't think it was a problem. ok r. From red at bears.org Thu Dec 3 17:17:57 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > Why can't I just leave the printer by the window and water it once in a > while? Calls to mind leaving silly messages on the dot-matrix LED display of an HP LaserJet 4 printer... some of my favourites to leave were: "17 COLON BLOCKED" (17 was the error code with no error associated) "INSERT 25 CENTS" "WARP CORE BREACH" Colon blocked turned out to be too plausible, though, and people ended up coming to me with very concerned expressions. Oh well. ok r. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Dec 3 17:40:00 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:53 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: from "R. Stricklin" at Dec 3, 98 06:17:57 pm Message-ID: <199812032340.PAA14706@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 794 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981203/957158d7/attachment.ksh From dburrows at netpath.net Thu Dec 3 18:05:14 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video Message-ID: <03b401be1f1a$10781af0$bf281bce@p166> >Calls to mind leaving silly messages on the dot-matrix LED display of an >HP LaserJet 4 printer... some of my favourites to leave were: > >"17 COLON BLOCKED" (17 was the error code with no error associated) >"INSERT 25 CENTS" >"WARP CORE BREACH" > >Colon blocked turned out to be too plausible, though, and people ended up >coming to me with very concerned expressions. Oh well. > Looks like you like to play tricks on users as well. I used to send "FATAL SYSTEM CRASH" on networked PDP11's, VAXstations and Alphastations. It is amazing the panic that things like that will create. Not to mention the "Virus" messages to opa0: on April 1. Dan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 3 18:12:37 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Dec 3, 98 05:06:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 444 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981204/0de077a3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 3 18:16:45 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: from "R. Stricklin" at Dec 3, 98 06:13:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1387 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981204/be06a406/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 3 18:26:42 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: from "R. Stricklin" at Dec 3, 98 06:17:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1559 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981204/6080ec18/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 3 19:13:50 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: <03b401be1f1a$10781af0$bf281bce@p166> from "Daniel T. Burrows" at Dec 3, 98 07:05:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 475 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981204/b1de2480/attachment.ksh From kurtkilg at geocities.com Thu Dec 3 19:24:54 1998 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video Message-ID: <000901be1f24$e88b9ca0$f9021a26@maxeskin> No, I'm a student. I can get in trouble for that kind of stuff :) Teacher: Why did you do that, Max? You can get into serious trouble for this! Me: It's just a harmless joke...look! (I demonstrate) Teacher: You know what, Max? Go home! (says jeez and rubs his eyes in the background) >Looks like you like to play tricks on users as well. Dan > From wpe101 at banet.net Thu Dec 3 20:10:23 1998 From: wpe101 at banet.net (Will Emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: OT|Re: Off topic posts (was Re: SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP) References: Message-ID: <3667448F.939F7EB6@banet.net> My vote (FWIW) is YES. Will Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, D. Peschel wrote: > > > This is getting pretty far off-topic, I think. > > ---- BEGIN RANT ---- > > Perhaps if those responding to posts with something that is off-topic or > that changes the subject would change the subject header to: > > A) Reflect the actual content of the message, with a reference to the old > message and/or > > B) Indicate that the reply is off topic, with the letters OT as a prefix > > ...we could avoid the usual flame war and reposts of the FAQ. That way, > people who don't want to read anything but messages concerning the > collecting/restoration of classic computers can either hit the delete > button or automatically filter out any messages who's subject contains > "OT" and those who like a casual, conversational atmosphere can enjoy the > social dialog. I often enjoy the tangent threads here, but I can't stand > trying to follow a discussion when 10 messages with the same, exact > subject are about 10 completely different topics. This point has been > brought up before, and, IMHO, it's really just a common courtesty that > could save us all a lot of unnecessary grief. > > ---- END RANT ---- > :wq From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 3 20:45:30 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: <000901be1f24$e88b9ca0$f9021a26@maxeskin> from "Max Eskin" at Dec 3, 98 08:24:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 444 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981204/dc987d08/attachment.ksh From dburrows at netpath.net Thu Dec 3 21:18:59 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video Message-ID: <03df01be1f34$fb001680$bf281bce@p166> >When I was a student, and when I was supervising students, practical >jokes were _expected_. There were rules, like no permanent damage (to >physical items or data (like computer files)). Nothing against the law. >Nothing _too_ dangerous. > >And yes, I've been caught by practical jokes. And yes, I laughed >afterwards - and then played a joke in return. Like tossing charged capacitors across the room to them? Or hooking a LARGE choke and a battery to a doorknob? I would never do such a thing.:) Dan From red at bears.org Thu Dec 3 22:54:15 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > You have _carpet_ in your workshop? Oh well.... I rent a room in a guy's house. I'm lucky to even have extra space to store my collection. He makes a big show of being magnanimous about it, too. (: ok r. From hansp at digiweb.com Fri Dec 4 00:46:43 1998 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: Any Zilog 8000 collectors out there. References: <3.0.1.16.19981203115428.49370d24@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <36678553.4C43B724@digiweb.com> Joe wrote: > > I think I have a Zilog manual for the Z-8000 if someone needs it. > > Joe I am always happy to pay shipping costs of any processor manuals any one has surplus. Regards, _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com Fri Dec 4 08:31:15 1998 From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video Message-ID: >> I've had to explain what 'out of paper' means on a printer. And then >> had to explain why a printer needs paper (!). > >Yeah, why does a printer need paper? Talk about an inefficient process: >plant seeds, nurture for 20 years, chop down tree, grind to a pulp, form If our office ever runs out of paper in an emergency we just have the office across town fax over a few blank sheets. Chuck cswiger@widomaker.com From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Dec 4 08:43:23 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: Someone with an RL02 needed. Message-ID: <13409088559.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I started diggin thru the tapes I got from knox, maybe one of them was a backup of RSTS. Found one. The gotcha - It'll only extract to an RL02. So, anyone got a PDP-11 with an RL02 and a TS tape? I need someone to extract the tape for me, and shove it on a disk image like the ones E11 takes. I should be able to unscrew myself from there. ------- From bill at chipware.com Fri Dec 4 09:20:38 1998 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001be1f99$a5b34840$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > > > > No, I'm a student. I can get in trouble for that kind of stuff :) > > What? > > When I was a student, and when I was supervising students, practical > jokes were _expected_. There were rules, like no permanent damage (to > physical items or data (like computer files)). Nothing against the law. > Nothing _too_ dangerous. > > And yes, I've been caught by practical jokes. And yes, I laughed > afterwards - and then played a joke in return. When I was in high school (we had an HP 3000), if you could hack MPE and "steal" operator or supervisor privileges then, provided that you didn't do anything terrible with them, you could keep them. And you often got recruited for temp operator duty. Ah... those were the days... when every machine on the ARPANET had a guest account... From bill at chipware.com Fri Dec 4 09:20:38 1998 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: <03df01be1f34$fb001680$bf281bce@p166> Message-ID: <000101be1f99$a5d80e50$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > Like tossing charged capacitors across the room to them? > Or hooking a LARGE choke and a battery to a doorknob? > I would never do such a thing.:) > Dan Cough... sputter... Now look what you did! I almost shot Coke out my nose! I once fell victim to the charged cap trick, but it's still funny. From dburrows at netpath.net Fri Dec 4 09:52:07 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: OT: Jokes was Re: DG Aviion video Message-ID: <023001be1fa0$49374560$bf281bce@p166> >> Like tossing charged capacitors across the room to them? >> Or hooking a LARGE choke and a battery to a doorknob? >> I would never do such a thing.:) >> Dan > >Cough... sputter... > >Now look what you did! I almost shot Coke out my nose! >I once fell victim to the charged cap trick, but it's >still funny. > Watching people's reaction with the choke is much more fun. They get shocked when they let go not when they are holding it. Dan From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Dec 4 10:51:26 1998 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: RL01/02 and RK06/07 terminators Message-ID: <199812041651.LAA21731@quartz.netsync.net> Question: Are the terminators for the RL and RK drives the same? No part number on outside of any of the three terminators I have on hand. One was found on an RK07 another on an RL01. All three have a Cermet network with 40 leads connecting to each connector pin. The P/N on each Cermet network is 13-13242. Just trying to make sure as I'm trying to get an RK07 running w/11/34A an RL02 w/11/24 and neither disk is accessed by its processor. Yes, the cables are sorted out as to whether they're an RK or an RL type. Thanks for the info. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Fri Dec 4 11:23:11 1998 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: OT: Carpets producing static In-Reply-To: References: from "R. Stricklin" at Dec 3, 98 06:13:39 pm Message-ID: >No, including information is never silly. Too true. >> That makes sense. Let's hope I didn't fry it when I dropped it on the >> carpet. It's been raining here for months though so the air is definitely > >You have _carpet_ in your workshop? Oh well.... > >I remember someone commenting in Byte (I think) that computer shops went >downhill when they started carpeting them. After all, who'd walk across a >carpeted floor carring a MOS chip? Our computer room here is carpeted as well... Not a very good idea... I just take a walk across the room and touch something and I get a cute shock. Sometimes they're not so cute. I'm now getting them off the front of the screen of one of the PCs (It's a Sony). Nasos From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Fri Dec 4 12:13:06 1998 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: Mac IIci cache cards In-Reply-To: <12D31BD1.2547FFDC@geocities.com> Message-ID: Greetings, I could use two and would be glad to pay shipping.... Shipping would be to Beaverton Oregon (97007). George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com KD7DCX On Fri, 4 Jan 1980, Eric wrote: > have a pile of mac IIci cache cards, if interested email. have no use > for them. > > -Eric > > > > > >2) Since I don't have a DayStar card, what else (if anything) can I > > > do with the adapter? Can I plug in a IIci cache card? > > > > From erd at infinet.com Fri Dec 4 12:05:08 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: Call for final Elf99 design input In-Reply-To: <199811261744.RAA23342@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Nov 26, 98 06:44:22 pm Message-ID: <199812041805.NAA22785@user2.infinet.com> > The idea is to map a part of the EPROM permanently to $0000-$001F > as replacemet for the original prom, or to suply a 32x8 RAM (like the > 1824, since we want to use as much 'original' Harris stuff as possible Using as much Harris stuff as possible is not one of my design goals. Simplicity is. At the moment, the only Harris part may be the 1802 mostly due to cost. The Harris stuff is between $5 and $10 per chip. > Yep, but AFAIR I never taked about the starting address - my fault. > I assumed a varable starting adress. That was the gist of my questions. It appears that we were using terms that the other was not fully understanding. The term "memory space" that I used, refers to a region of memory that is designed to contain something, but may or may not be full. For example, a 4K PET has 32K of RAM address space, but 4K of RAM. It's trivial to add another 28K of RAM, not so trivial to add RAM outside of that 32K address space. A 68000 smart serial card I used to make had the 16Mb divided into 4 address spaces: RAM, I/O, shared memory (it was a DMA card on a PDP-11) and ROM. Even though no card ever had more than 2Mb of RAM (the oldest card had 32K of 2114!), all of the later cards had 4Mb of the memory map blocked out for RAM. It is easy to divide the memory space into 1/2 RAM and 1/2 ROM. It's harder to divide it into 3/4 RAM and 1/4 ROM. It's even harder to divide it into 3/4 RAM, 1/8 ROM and 1/8 memory-mapped I/O, and it's hardest of all to make the division user configurable. A 48K Elf might be cool, but none of the ancient software knows much more than about 4K, leaving plenty of the intended 32K left for new stuff. Besides, I want to stick with one RAM chip and one ROM chip, for simplicity. > Ahh ok. Hmm so if we want to use the 'switch-boot' a RAM based function > can never be used ? or do you only map the first 256 (or less) bytes of the > EPROM to $0000 ? No... the entire ROM maps at $0000 and $8000 until the first time that A15 gets set, then the flip-flip clears and RAM banks in at $0000 and ROM remains at $8000. This is easy to implement and fairly clean. No I/O address needs to be hung up as in the VIP design (62). > Adding two sockets wouldnt be a big thing I guess, but one could build > a system with only the 256 Bytes of storage :) Technolgically speaking, it's trivial. The issue is real estate. If I have to make the board bigger, the cost goes up. I'm thinking about designing and releasing a design for a piggyback board to plug into the 6116/62256 socket to adapt a pair of 1822/2101's. I wouldn't *make* that board, but anyone who wanted to use 256x4 RAMs should be able to make their own. > > The space taken up by two 40 pin chips is a bit much when I can implement > > two cheap ports (one in and one out) with octal latches. > > You're right. Now... OTOH, Allison Parent's mentioning of the COSMAC eval kit has pushed me back to considering dual 1852's. It's still the most expensive option, but software compatibility for any sort of existing software base is nothing to be lightly dismissed. > What about adding a latched solution for all parallel ports like mentioned > in one of the App notes (I think it was with one of the latches). If I understand what you are suggestion, Allison suggested that, too. You mean decoding additional secondary ports from a primary port, yes? The reasons not to do it are a) increased complexity of design and b) increased complexity of programming. I have not utterly dismissed it, but neither am I overwhelmingly convinced that it's necessary. > > > > o A 1854 UART > > > > Data transfer via Q is way more fun (Hi Alison :). > > Serious, this was inteded as a joke - Even with software controll > 2400 Bd should be no problem at all - and for the LCD, I would realy > like to use one of these ASCII input LCDs They cost more. I can get 4/8-bit PIO displays 16x1 for $3 each. I have an ASCII LCD - PIC-an-LCD from B.G. Micro. The board was $12, the PIC controller was $12. I like it a lot. It sits on my Linux Internet router. Sticking with an easy to implement LCD connector means that the user can hang a *cheap* display right off the Elf. > Anyway, if we use your 32K RAM plus 32K ROM design, I thougt > about adding a kind of CS unit to provide several CS signals for adding > various memory or memory maped areas. For example if we supply > 8 CS lines for 8 8K areas, one could bild a system like: > 2K EPROM at $8000 (needed to perform the 'boot') and > 256 Bytes RAM at $2000 and a memory maped > 1851 at $4000 ... or some other configurations. Ack! Too complicated. I'm after *simple* here. While your concept here is very powerful, > My view of the Elf99 is more fun and hobby than real applications. > Playing with unusual components and using 'real' 18xx stuff is > part of this flair. A 4xxx based I/O is just less 'sexy' than a 185x. It is and it isn't, depending on the nature of the playing. After all, you can't stick a logic probe inside a 185x chip. You *can* watch a 4308 latch the data and observe how a parallel port works, if you care to. Besides, the 1852 is nearly 10 times the cost of the 4308. > Its like with some of our vintage equipment - connecting a Terminal > to an Altair gives a diferent feeling than to any 12 MHz 64180 system, > even when running the same CP/M and the same Wordstar... Yes, but even a real RCA product, the VIP, used 4308 latches for PIO. > > I still have yet to hear why the 1855 Multiply/Divide Unit is worth > > the real estate. Sure, it's a neat chip, but unless it has a purpose, > > I can't see including it. > > Gee the purpose is to multiply and divide - what else :-) Well.. Duh. I meant, why go the trouble of a bank of hardware integer multiply units with no practical use in mind beforehand. For example, if I were building a PIC project board, I'd contemplate ways to attach a thermistor to play with computerized thermometer projects. I am at a loss to suggest to the user what they could do with a bank of 1855's to justify 1/6th of the space on the board. > If you just think about the real world usability of an Elf99, > we shold stop it and go for a 80188 design of an equal > level (I like the 8018x CPUs)- But the Intel architecture isn't sexy like the 1802. You can't build a ROMless 8018x system with 256 bytes of RAM. As complex as the Elf99 is turning out, I know it can be partially populated to produce a very good approximation of the original Quest design (leave off the address latch and all I/O except the Q LED). Someone wishing to build the whole design can stuff every crevice with parts and have an Elf beyond our wildest dreams of 1977. > And for both chips (MDU and RTC), I don't want them to > be esential - just optional. And I think they offer a lot > of possible usages (what about a Elf Basic using the MDU > for speed ?). Optional isn't the issue. The cost of the board space is. I've already planned on lots of optional stuff (PIO, UART, more than 256 bytes of RAM). I'm not opposed to optional things. I am just trying to give as much expansion as $99 will allow. If the board costs more, it loses its audience. > (BTW: Just look at the 'front panel' thread - a MDU would offer > a lot of new and excitieing lights :) Too complicated for a $99 design. > USD 2 for a 16x2 (or USD 7 for a 20x4) including controller ? If by controller you mean a Hitachi 48440 or similar chip that sits between the raw LCD and provides the user with a font and parallel (4 or 8 bit) interface, then yes. $2 to $9 is a typical range, depending on new or used or backlight or not. > Thats pretty cheap. If this is true, a 20x4 should be included > for shure. A LCD without controller is not usefull, since a permanent > scann to support output counters the basic static Design. I've got a 20x4 on my Linux box (as I said). I chose to spend $24 extra (I scrounged the power supply and box) to keep the programming from a UNIX machine simple. There is no such requirement on a toy board. > The apeal lies in having an Elf like computer, but with all the fancy > stuff to draw fun from programming and playing. Thats one main > reason why I suggestet the library and the library boot No argument about the library boot. I spent lots of time entering in games from the VIP manual (I still have the tape!) > So my idea of the Elf99 is an easy to use experimentation / training > kit with a lot of interesting features - NOT any kind of very usefull high > powered controller. Something to learn about a microcomputer for > children... So far we are in agreement. I don't expect anyone to buy this and build it into an Internet Coke machine or anything. > ..and the MDU is just a part of this idea In the abstract, I agree, but I still see no practical use for the MDU except as an expensive, flashy toy that would only appeal to a few people (less than 5%). I'm shooting for 80% or 90% audience acceptance for a feature. So far, that's 8 bits in, 8 bits out and some sort of serial port (plus the required switches, displays and Q). > In fact, if the design is a in this direction I plan to use two of them > for children in the age of 11 and 14. They would be a good audience. I got my hands on a Quest Elf when I was 11. It nand the PET profoundly affected my life and career path. -ethan From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Dec 4 13:05:24 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: System/23??? Message-ID: <36683273.F696EF92@bigfoot.com> Ok here's one for all those of you familiar with the older IBM iron. I have just fallen into a unit that looks much like a TRS-80 model 3 or 4 (all in one in other words) that has two 8" floppies, a CRT, built on keyboard. It says it's a model 5322 and the face says it's a System/23 unit. This is before my time I'm sure (my time in messing with pooters). It has a 9 pin d-sub with a jumper loop on back and then further up the back it has another, but open, 9 pin female d-sub. Token ring maybe, or where a twinax adapter might go? Whatever info you have would be great, and if anyone has an interest in this heavy bugger let me know. I haven't even powered it up yet but it does have an original IBM floppy in it, not even sure if it's a boot disk or not. I have a weird feeling it's a wordprocessing terminal. It even has a keyboard overlay that sits above the keys. Russ Blakeman Harned, KY From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Dec 4 13:10:42 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: OT: Carpets producing static References: from "R. Stricklin" at Dec 3, 98 06:13:39 pm Message-ID: <366833B1.AE00A233@bigfoot.com> There are a few things you can do to minimize static. First you can either buy an anti-stat spray or get a bottle of Downy and dilute it as recommended, then spray a mist over the carpet and let it dry. You can also run bare wire under the carpet (if possible) and then terminate it to a cold water pipe or other building ground. It tends to neutralize the potentials and will at least minimze the chance of buildup. Humidification greatly reduces the chances for static as well, even if it's just a unit on t he floor of the room you work in. keeps dust buildup to a minimum as well. Russ Athanasios Kotsenos wrote: > >No, including information is never silly. > > Too true. > > >> That makes sense. Let's hope I didn't fry it when I dropped it on the > >> carpet. It's been raining here for months though so the air is definitely > > > >You have _carpet_ in your workshop? Oh well.... > > > >I remember someone commenting in Byte (I think) that computer shops went > >downhill when they started carpeting them. After all, who'd walk across a > >carpeted floor carring a MOS chip? > > Our computer room here is carpeted as well... Not a very good idea... > I just take a walk across the room and touch something and I get a cute > shock. Sometimes they're not so cute. I'm now getting them off the front of > the screen of one of the PCs (It's a Sony). > > Nasos From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com Fri Dec 4 13:12:11 1998 From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: On topic: Serious static problem Message-ID: This is giving me fits. There's something strange with my minivan, that it generates a *ton* of static electricity whenever I drive even a few blocks. When I touch the metal of the door upon getting out, I get a shock that hurts all the way up to the shoulder. The real problem, and what makes this on topic, is that I use this vehicle to pick-up/transport my classic beauties everywhere. I'm terrified that I'm going to pick up that once-in-a-lifetime S-100 rescue or something and kill the guts with one of these lightning bolts. What I do now is keep a wrist-strap and a box of Bounce dryer sheets (don't laugh) in my jockey box. Does anyone know what could be causing this? Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Dec 4 13:16:13 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 References: <366629f7.50319838@smtp.site1.csi.com> <98120316020302.00293@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <366834FC.E6B5A7B@bigfoot.com> Max...I have a docking station, model 2815, that's supposed to fit the LTE/LTE lite series for sale. Check your info to be sure it would work for your machine and if it will and you might be interested, contact me. It is in great shape and will give you added network or other interface as well as a place for 2 drives or such. I had it sold on eBay but after 3 weeks of waiting for payment I relisted it (but can pull it if this might be useful to you). Russ rhblake@bigfoot.com Max Eskin wrote: > You should check out Compaq's site, it has some interesting stuff in .PDF > format (mostly). That said, if anyone has docs for a Compaq LTE/Lite-25, I'd be > glad to buy them too. > > On Thu, 03 Dec 1998, you wrote: > >I recently picked up a Compaq SLT/286 and would like to purchase any > >documentation for it. Anybody have docs for a reasonable price? > >Thanks, > >Richard Hall > > > > > > > >Apple II educational software http://members.xoom.com/AV_Systems From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Fri Dec 4 08:26:35 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: OT: Carpets producing static In-Reply-To: <366833B1.AE00A233@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <199812041920.OAA17322@mail.cgocable.net> > > Humidification greatly reduces the chances for static as well, even if it's just > a unit on t he floor of the room you work in. keeps dust buildup to a minimum as > well. > Russ Not so with ultrasonic humidifer, lots and lots of dust generated from that thing. Anything else with old fashioned technologies, fine. Jason D. email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Fri Dec 4 13:23:08 1998 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: On topic: Serious static problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >What I do now is keep a wrist-strap and a >box of Bounce dryer sheets (don't laugh) in my jockey box. Sorry, but what do the Bounce sheets do? Nasos From yowza at yowza.com Fri Dec 4 13:44:54 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: On topic: Serious static problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > Does anyone know what could be causing this? Your tires. You can cure this by dragging a ground strap. -- Doug From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Fri Dec 4 13:50:24 1998 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: On Topic: Carpets producing static and old HPs In-Reply-To: <366833B1.AE00A233@bigfoot.com> References: from "R. Stricklin" at Dec 3, 98 06:13:39 pm Message-ID: >There are a few things you can do to minimize static. First you can either buy >an anti-stat spray or get a bottle of Downy and dilute it as recommended, then >spray a mist over the carpet and let it dry. Is Downy a detergent for sensitive clothes (the name is familiar)? Or is it specifically for this purpose? >You can also run bare wire under >the carpet (if possible) and then terminate it to a cold water pipe or other >building ground. It tends to neutralize the potentials and will at least >minimze >the chance of buildup. Well, this room has a raised floor under which power and network cables run. The floor is wooden with the thin carpet on top. At various points you have these metal 'holes' where the sockets/plugs are located. In fact the covers are metallic and have carpet on them too and it was intereting when I noticed that they have a little grounding wire connecting them to the rest of the metallic frame. That's obviously for keeping static off that bit, but it doesn't seem to be doing any good for the rest of the carpet. I'm sorta used to it - you should see the shocks some of the people get when I go to help them. :)= >Humidification greatly reduces the chances for static as well, even if >it's just >a unit on t he floor of the room you work in. keeps dust buildup to a >minimum as >well. That's another problem we have. We are facing Kengsington Gore (a big street in London (just on the south side of Kensington Gardens and Hyde Park)), so we get tons of pollution coming in. It's a nightmare getting that out of a computer I've opened for repairs (I had never seen anything like it before when I opened the 'ancient' Macs that were probably being opened for the first time). Same dust problem goes for the large amount of (mostly HP) hardware left in the far end of the room. Oh, get a load of this - all this hardware was under an electronics workbench (this room is great). I tested some of the old screens and was happy to find that some of them work. The HP stuff is what is left from the network they had here before they got all the Macs and the college-wide network. We're talking about a system that was given to them (sponsorship?) back in 1988 or something. I don't know how gloriously (or not) it went down, but nobody seems to care about it, it's been sitting here for years and they've been trying to chuck it out for years. I'd hate to see it go in the skip like that and I've stated my concern. And now that I'm the only one in charge of the computer room and I do have to get this stuff out of here eventually, I'd like them to have a nice home. This is the main reason I joined this list. I'm sorry I'm too lazy to type in a list right now of what we have. Besides being tired on a Friday evening, I'd give you the list after I decide what I want to/can keep. And there may be some interested people in this college. What is left will go to this list, I guess. It's obviously an advantage if you are in the London area or the UK, but whoever is interested and willing... >Russ Thanks for your info Russ. Bye all, Nasos From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Dec 4 13:49:58 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: On topic: Serious static problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981204134958.00ffe620@pc> At 11:12 AM 12/4/98 -0800, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: >This is giving me fits. There's something strange with my minivan, that it >generates a *ton* of static electricity whenever I drive even a few >blocks. I seem to remember reading about this - perhaps in the "Straight Dope". A quick www.dejanews.com search led me to a Toyota FAQ that confirmed what I remembered. Newer "low rolling resistance" tires don't contain as much carbon black as they once did, which makes them more of an insulator, which means as they turn they're picking up a charge relative to ground. Other articles I saw mentioned this was a problem with AM radio reception, causing sparks as the charge dissipated as you drove, and for toll booth operators you'd touch during a drive. Click and Clack wrote about it at Strangely, I also found an article about the magnetic fields generated by rolling tires: - John From Dean.Nelson at lmco.com Fri Dec 4 12:50:20 1998 From: Dean.Nelson at lmco.com (Dean A. Nelson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: FORSALE(Bids): uVaxes,Monitors,Network,DG Aviions + FREE STUFF In-Reply-To: <000301be1e4f$83217450$2893f6c6@eng1> Message-ID: <000601be1fb6$f1e506a0$2893f6c6@eng1> Here are the current bids on my computer stuff: If you want to bid, do so by end of today (friday). No reasonable offer will be rejected. (Please be very specific with any bids or requests for free stuff) ----MICRO VAXES and DG Aviions----------- VaxStation 3100 M76, 32MB Ram (Model VS43A-CY) $75 Vax Server 3100, 16MB Ram (Model DJ-31ESA-A-A01) $75 MicroVax 3100-40, 16MB Ram ( Model 450ZM-B9-A01) $100 Data General Aviion Model AV 410 64mb (DG/UX) $60 Data General Aviion Model AV 410 64mb (Boots to HW) $30 -----MONITORS-------- DEC 19" - Model VR299-DA (Works) $50 DEC 19" - Model VR299-DA (Works) NO BIDS Data General 17" Trinitron GDM-1601 (works) NO BIDS -----Network Bridges---------- Vitalink VX350 4 port/V.35 Ethernet NO BIDS Vitalink TRANSlan 350 8 port/V.35 Ethernet NO BIDS -----KEYBOARDS--------- 2 DEC LK201 keyboards $5 each 6 DEC LK201 keyboards NO BIDS ------FREE STUFF (you just pay the shipping)--------------- Core Intl Hard Drive Model: AT72 (72MB) UP FOR GRABS 19" rack mount hard drive enclosures w/ps TAKEN Desktop hard drive chassis for 2 full height drives. UP FOR GRABS (maybe) 19" Modem rack with 8 modems (2400 baud) UP FOR GRABS ------------------- Contact: For any Questions during the day: Dean dot Nelson at LMCO dot COM To send a bid or questions: DeanNelson at AOL dot Com From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Fri Dec 4 13:53:13 1998 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: OT: Carpets producing static In-Reply-To: <199812041920.OAA17322@mail.cgocable.net> References: <366833B1.AE00A233@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: >> Humidification greatly reduces the chances for static as well, even if >>it's just >> a unit on t he floor of the room you work in. keeps dust buildup to a >>minimum as >> well. >Not so with ultrasonic humidifer, lots and lots of dust generated >from that thing. Ultrasonic and humidifier? How does that work? What about those ionisers or the ones that also have air filters? Nasos From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Dec 4 14:30:05 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: OT: Carpets producing static In-Reply-To: References: <199812041920.OAA17322@mail.cgocable.net> <366833B1.AE00A233@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981204143005.00cd3890@pc> At 07:53 PM 12/4/98 +0000, Athanasios Kotsenos wrote: > >>Not so with ultrasonic humidifer, lots and lots of dust generated >>from that thing. > >Ultrasonic and humidifier? How does that work? Inexpensive ultrasonic humidifiers essentially break up water into small bits and then fan them into the air, meaning anything in your water such as calcium, salt, etc. is now in the air. As those droplets evaporate as they should, the other material becomes dust that will collect electrostatically on electronic equipment, plastics, etc. As someone else on the list implied, any more old-fashioned humidifier (which may be even more inexpensive than the ultrasonics) that merely exposes water to blowing air isn't prone to this sort of dust generation. I used an ultrasonic humidifier for a *very short* time until I discovered this nasty side-effect as all my monitor screens became frosty white, and the plastic and metal cases of equipment became dusted in static-y patterns. - John From jim at calico.litterbox.com Fri Dec 4 14:44:23 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: OT: Carpets producing static In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981204143005.00cd3890@pc> from "John Foust" at Dec 04, 1998 02:30:05 PM Message-ID: <199812042044.NAA23258@calico.litterbox.com> > Inexpensive ultrasonic humidifiers essentially break up water into > small bits and then fan them into the air, meaning anything in your > water such as calcium, salt, etc. is now in the air. As those droplets > evaporate as they should, the other material becomes dust that will > collect electrostatically on electronic equipment, plastics, etc. So I assume if you feed the ultrasonic vaporizer distilled water it doesn't do this? -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Dec 4 14:55:51 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: OT: Carpets producing static References: <199812042044.NAA23258@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <36684C56.C4865056@bigfoot.com> Most manufacturers recommend distilled water anyway, to keep the deposits in the machine itself down as well. Jim Strickland wrote: > > Inexpensive ultrasonic humidifiers essentially break up water into > > small bits and then fan them into the air, meaning anything in your > > water such as calcium, salt, etc. is now in the air. As those droplets > > evaporate as they should, the other material becomes dust that will > > collect electrostatically on electronic equipment, plastics, etc. > > So I assume if you feed the ultrasonic vaporizer distilled water it doesn't > do this? > -- > Jim Strickland > jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From kurtkilg at geocities.com Fri Dec 4 14:57:36 1998 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 References: <366834FC.E6B5A7B@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <98120415581102.00312@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 04 Dec 1998, you wrote: >Max...I have a docking station, model 2815, that's supposed to fit the LTE/LTE lite >series for sale. Check your info to be sure it would work for your machine and if >it will and you might be interested, contact me. It is in great shape and will give >you added network or other interface as well as a place for 2 drives or such. I had >it sold on eBay but after 3 weeks of waiting for payment I relisted it (but can >pull it if this might be useful to you). > >Russ >rhblake@bigfoot.com Oh, yes, yes, yes! How much? Russ: 200$ From kurtkilg at geocities.com Fri Dec 4 15:00:34 1998 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: OT: Carpets producing static References: <199812042044.NAA23258@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <98120416044304.00312@localhost.localdomain> Many humdifiers have built-in filters, but I don't know how well they work. We just got one of them Brita water filters, which is basically overpriced charcoal, but makes the tap water look a lot cleaner. In general, I see no reason not to use a conventional humidifier anyway (in the winter, we put pans of water on the radiators). ObClassiccmp: would it be possible to convert a PC motherboard into a humidifier using the piezoelectric buzzer? >So I assume if you feed the ultrasonic vaporizer distilled water it doesn't >do this? >-- >Jim Strickland >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com From donm at cts.com Fri Dec 4 15:11:06 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: On topic: Serious static problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > This is giving me fits. There's something strange with my minivan, that it > generates a *ton* of static electricity whenever I drive even a few > blocks. When I touch the metal of the door upon getting out, I get a > shock that hurts all the way up to the shoulder. The real problem, and > what makes this on topic, is that I use this vehicle to pick-up/transport > my classic beauties everywhere. I'm terrified that I'm going to pick up > that once-in-a-lifetime S-100 rescue or something and kill the guts with > one of these lightning bolts. What I do now is keep a wrist-strap and a > box of Bounce dryer sheets (don't laugh) in my jockey box. Does anyone > know what could be causing this? > > > > Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > "UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." > My guess would be the upholstery and the seat of your pants. It is obvious that you and the vehicle are not at the same potential! - don From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Dec 4 15:19:19 1998 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: On topic: Serious static problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199812042119.QAA16839@quartz.netsync.net> At 11:12 12/04/98 -0800, Aaron C. Finney wrote: >This is giving me fits. There's something strange with my minivan, that it >generates a *ton* of static electricity whenever I drive even a few -- snip -- >box of Bounce dryer sheets (don't laugh) in my jockey box. Does anyone >know what could be causing this? Yes. It's not the car but it's the tires. I've had the same problems with a couple of Toyota Camrys I've leased over the past years. Extreme and rather painful shocks are generated especially in this part of the country when it is very cold and low humidity. Finally getting tired of the fireworks, I asked a few tire dealers and auto dealers about this and they told me that modern tires nowadays have somewhat less carbon black, which is conductive, in their rubber compounds. Something about reduced wear, etc. Static charges built up from the motion of the tires over the road don't drain off as fast. Hence, when you step out of the car you get nailed. This is because the resistivity of the tire rubber is higher because of less carbon black content. Carbon black, incidentally started to be put into tire rubber back around 1910-1912, IIRC, when it was found that it drastically reduced the damage to the natural rubber caused by the sun's UV rays. Tires up until then were as white as the original rubber tree sap was when harvested and did not last very long. You can see examples of reproduction white tires on correctly-restored antique cars from around the early teens and earlier at an antique car show or auto museum. I found a solution by holding my fingers on the unpainted door jamb hardware as I turn and step out of the car (if I'm wearing normal rubber-soled shoes). This keeps my body and the car at equal potentials as the static continues to drain off through the less resistive tires. Minimal or no zaps anymore. I worry a bit about those shocks at the gasoline station if somebody is fueling their car and there is a significant concentration of fuel vapors and no wind about. It takes at least a 14:1 air to vapor ratio for ignition to occur which is not too likely at the gas bar. I have a pair of ESD-type work shoes which I wore at work and still wear around the house. There is a high amount of carbon in the heels and soles which allows them to be used as an anti-static device for electronics workers. I never get nailed in the house on a carpet nor from my car whenever I wear them. They're great! Made by Titan Safety Shoe Company. Needed them in the cleanroom at work and when repairing electronic controls around the plant or working up in the R&D lab. Additionally, I recall that I had very little problem when I wore leather-soled shoes back in the days when I had them. Seems the leather was a bit conductive especially when damp. Incidentally, do some of you remember the automobile accessory fad from back in the 70's which was an anti-static strap that hung from the bottom of the car? If it was conductive it would serve a good purpose for you today Aaron. You've probably seen fuel tanker trucks with a metal chain dragging. It too was used as a static drain for obvious reasons ;) Happy zapping! --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Dec 4 16:07:18 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: On topic: Serious static problem References: Message-ID: <36685D14.D89B6B25@bigfoot.com> Don Maslin wrote: > On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > > This is giving me fits. There's something strange with my minivan, that it > > generates a *ton* of static electricity whenever I drive even a few > > blocks. When I touch the metal of the door upon getting out, I get a > > shock that hurts all the way up to the shoulder. The real problem, and > > what makes this on topic, is that I use this vehicle to pick-up/transport > > my classic beauties everywhere. I'm terrified that I'm going to pick up > > that once-in-a-lifetime S-100 rescue or something and kill the guts with > > one of these lightning bolts. What I do now is keep a wrist-strap and a > > box of Bounce dryer sheets (don't laugh) in my jockey box. Does anyone > > know what could be causing this? > > > > > > > > Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > "UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." > > > > My guess would be the upholstery and the seat of your pants. It is > obvious that you and the vehicle are not at the same potential! > > - don He needs to quit wearing his wife's underwear (just kidding). The wonderful world of nylon upholstery has created such a wonderful place for static in a totally isolated vehicle. This is why fuel trucks have a conductive strap on the road, or even a piece of chain. This might not be a good idea on the minivan but a good brand of static spray on the seats and carpets will greatly diminish the problem. Another may is to be sure to keep the equipment away from the driver and make sure you touch (ouch) a bare metal part of the van before touching the equipment. A length of stainless braid wire from the body to the sliding door can also reduce the possibilty when you slide the side door. I wonder if leaving the wire braid exposed on your radial tires would work? Again, just kidding.... From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Fri Dec 4 11:24:23 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: Whose is that program to spawn that *.xls files? In-Reply-To: <98120416044304.00312@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <199812042218.RAA27198@mail.cgocable.net> Thanks all, just send me privately on this matter if that program can be downloadable, then that's great! This file fell into my lap by a friend asking me to extract this one. Jason D. email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Dec 4 15:34:10 1998 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: OT: Carpets producing static In-Reply-To: <199812042044.NAA23258@calico.litterbox.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19981204143005.00cd3890@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981204153410.00eaa100@pc> At 01:44 PM 12/4/98 -0700, Jim Strickland wrote: >So I assume if you feed the ultrasonic vaporizer distilled water it doesn't >do this? Yes, although it's faster to turn a dollar bill into vapor using a match. - John From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com Fri Dec 4 16:28:21 1998 From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: OT: Carpets producing static In-Reply-To: <98120416044304.00312@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > Many humdifiers have built-in filters, but I don't know how well they work. We > just got one of them Brita water filters, which is basically overpriced > charcoal, but makes the tap water look a lot cleaner. In general, I see no > reason not to use a conventional humidifier anyway (in the winter, we put pans > of water on the radiators). > ObClassiccmp: would it be possible to convert a PC motherboard into a > humidifier using the piezoelectric buzzer? I bought three humidifiers last winter at the corner drug store for $15 each. They consist of a large tank and a fan that blows over a special sponge. I keep them clean with bleach and use distilled water with them and haven't had any problems with buildup at all. Each one works well for a 15'x15' room; Southern California is dry enough *without* the heaters going at night - a static nightmare without humidifiers. To move this on-topic (a little), does anyone know the *ideal* relative humidity for computer/electonic equipment? How about for magnetic media, specifically these 8" disks and 9track tapes that are already approaching their 20th birthdays? Aaron From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Dec 4 16:33:11 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: Whose is that program to spawn that *.xls files? In-Reply-To: <199812042218.RAA27198@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Dec 1998 jpero@pop.cgocable.net wrote: > Thanks all, just send me privately on this matter if that program can > be downloadable, then that's great! > > This file fell into my lap by a friend asking me to extract this one. Microsoft Excel I believe. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 11/02/98] From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Fri Dec 4 11:41:43 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: OT: Carpets producing static In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981204153410.00eaa100@pc> References: <199812042044.NAA23258@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <199812042235.RAA09102@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 15:34:10 -0600 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: John Foust > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: OT: Carpets producing static > At 01:44 PM 12/4/98 -0700, Jim Strickland wrote: > >So I assume if you feed the ultrasonic vaporizer distilled water it doesn't > >do this? > > Yes, although it's faster to turn a dollar bill into vapor using a match. > > - John Correct. Cheaper and bit savings on the bills becuse of no electronics to spin the motor to blow air and cool the electronics and vibrate the disc in that ultrasonic vapourizer. That disc degrades with use which is poor in my experience with one unit. An pair of stainless flat bars in a special cartidge both dunked in tapwater, boiling a head of steam by the conduction of resistance current making heat. The *STEAM* sprewed forth by any methods is pure distilled water and that is exactly how distillers gets their distilled water. This process is by condesing the steam back to liquid by cooled surface and allowed to drip into tank then packaged, shipped. > > email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Dec 4 17:36:47 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: <000001be1f99$a5b34840$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> (bill@chipware.com) References: <000001be1f99$a5b34840$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <19981204233647.5737.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Bill Sudbrink" wrote: > When I was in high school (we had an HP 3000), if you could hack MPE > and "steal" operator or supervisor privileges then, provided that you > didn't do anything terrible with them, you could keep them. And you The community college I attended made sure that all the MPE manuals were locked up, and had arranged for the local HP office to screen requests for manuals and try really hard to avoid selling them to students. Lord knows you wouldn't want students to actually learn how to use the system. I suppose this was some sort of misguided attempt at security through obscurity. We figured out how to do a lot of things we weren't supposed to, but we certainly weren't able to learn enough about MPE for it to be a marketable skill :-( And to think that I actually paid real money for the priviledge of being prevented from learning about the computer :-( :-( Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 4 13:22:18 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: <03df01be1f34$fb001680$bf281bce@p166> from "Daniel T. Burrows" at Dec 3, 98 10:18:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1300 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981204/672452bb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 4 15:05:11 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: RL01/02 and RK06/07 terminators In-Reply-To: <199812041651.LAA21731@quartz.netsync.net> from "Christian Fandt" at Dec 4, 98 11:51:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 800 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981204/bec8933f/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Dec 4 17:43:34 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: On topic: Serious static problem In-Reply-To: <199812042119.QAA16839@quartz.netsync.net> (message from Christian Fandt on Fri, 04 Dec 1998 16:19:19 -0500) References: <199812042119.QAA16839@quartz.netsync.net> Message-ID: <19981204234334.5783.qmail@brouhaha.com> Christian Fandt wrote: > You've probably seen fuel tanker trucks with a metal chain > dragging. It too was used as a static drain for obvious reasons ;) I only noticed one of these for the first time about a month ago. I was wondering why they were dragging a chain; it was throwing lots of sparks. Didn't seem like a great idea to me, but what do I know? Eric From kurtkilg at geocities.com Fri Dec 4 18:04:07 1998 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:54 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video References: <19981204233647.5737.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <98120419091802.01244@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 04 Dec 1998, you wrote: >The community college I attended made sure that all the MPE manuals were >locked up, and had arranged for the local HP office to screen requests for >manuals and try really hard to avoid selling them to students. Lord knows >you wouldn't want students to actually learn how to use the system. > >I suppose this was some sort of misguided attempt at security through >obscurity. We figured out how to do a lot of things we weren't supposed >to, but we certainly weren't able to learn enough about MPE for it to >be a marketable skill :-( > >And to think that I actually paid real money for the priviledge of being >prevented from learning about the computer :-( :-( My sentiment exactly, though I'm getting this wonderful service for free :) Here at school two days ago, I was trying to fix a Windows 95 "security breach" (kind of like trying to sew an interdimensional wormhole together); I was using the MS-DOS prompt and using ping and tracert to find out why the computer wouldn't log on to the network properly. My teacher says, "You do of course realize, Max, that there are three pairs of curious eyes watching what you're doing? I don't want you showing them the NT Server Prompt". I gently explained what it really was but he objected just the same. Wouldn't want to distract the kids from learning how to use powerpoint. Today, he told them that a website should work like a powerpoint presentation. I stood there with my mouth wide open. How is somebody supposed to learn in this atmosphere? I'll bet when my school used the IBM System/34 students learned quite a bit more... > >Eric From red at bears.org Fri Dec 4 18:13:36 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: On topic: Serious static problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > This is giving me fits. There's something strange with my minivan, that it > generates a *ton* of static electricity whenever I drive even a few > [...] > Does anyone know what could be causing this? Silicon based rubber in the tires. New vehicles have less carbon in the rubber and thus the tires are more insulative. This was done in the interest of reducing rolling friction and increasing fuel economy. What you should do is get one of those automotive grounding straps from an auto supply store, and this should do the trick. you've probably seen cars around that have that black thing hanging from the rear bumper.. that's what it is. I learned this on Car Talk, on NPR. Those two guys are a riot. ok r. From dburrows at netpath.net Fri Dec 4 18:42:21 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video Message-ID: <010501be1fe8$c7d48520$bf281bce@p166> >Oh no... My jokes were a little more subtle... I still laugh thinking about the people that tried to figure out how they were getting shocked when they let go of the doornob not when they initially touched it. It was especially good to watch the person that just got shocked, when some new person grabs the doornob and just holds it while the first tries to warn them. >The -ve resistance battery was one such (an empty battery casing >containing a couple on 9V batteries and a little circuit so the voltage >would rise on load). Drives people mad... I like that idea.:) look out kids. > >The VGA-colour-swapper is another. This is a simple adapter with a DE15 >plug on one side and a DE15 socket on the other. All the pins are >straight through, apart from 1,2,3 which are wired 1->2, 2->3, 3->1. The >result is that it swaps the colours round. It's actually a useful piece >of test gear to discover quickly if a missing colour is due to the >monitor or video card. But it's the sort of thing to plug into a luser's >computer after he's spent the morning getting the colours 'right'... > Like swapping red and blue on VAXstations etc. Dan From kurtkilg at geocities.com Fri Dec 4 19:22:03 1998 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video Message-ID: <000c01be1fed$ac17be60$fe021a26@maxeskin> How _does_ that work? >I still laugh thinking about the people that tried to figure out how they >were getting shocked when they let go of the doornob not when they >initially touched it. >Dan > From gram at cnct.com Fri Dec 4 19:31:55 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: On Topic: Carpets producing static and old HPs References: from "R. Stricklin" at Dec 3, 98 06:13:39 pm Message-ID: <36688D0B.C7BC3049@cnct.com> Athanasios Kotsenos wrote: > > >There are a few things you can do to minimize static. First you can either buy > >an anti-stat spray or get a bottle of Downy and dilute it as recommended, then > >spray a mist over the carpet and let it dry. > > Is Downy a detergent for sensitive clothes (the name is familiar)? Or is it > specifically for this purpose? It's a "fabric softener". It leaves a chemical residue after the rinse that tends to reduce static electricity formation after the clothing is dried. As anyone who has dried clothing of dissimilar fabrics is familiar with the socks sticking to the shirts. > > >You can also run bare wire under > >the carpet (if possible) and then terminate it to a cold water pipe or other > >building ground. It tends to neutralize the potentials and will at least > >minimze > >the chance of buildup. > > Well, this room has a raised floor under which power and network cables > run. The floor is wooden with the thin carpet on top. At various points you > have these metal 'holes' where the sockets/plugs are located. In fact the > covers are metallic and have carpet on them too and it was intereting when > I noticed that they have a little grounding wire connecting them to the > rest of the metallic frame. That's obviously for keeping static off that > bit, but it doesn't seem to be doing any good for the rest of the carpet. There is carpeting manufactured that contains conductive threads. It was standard at all of the Radio Shack Computer Centers in the States, probably the regular Radio Shack stores as well. I was more likely to generate a spark walking across the linoleum in the repair shop than in the carpeted showroom. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From max82 at surfree.com Fri Dec 4 19:28:42 1998 From: max82 at surfree.com (Natalia Pritikina) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 Message-ID: <000301be1fee$99f80b80$fe021a26@maxeskin> Well, unfortunately, I replied to Russ's offer for a laptop dock onto the list. Not only that, I included a joke that I was glad that it's available but Russ would overprice it. If this went directly to Russ he would have gotten it, but on the list it makes it seem like he actually overpriced it. Sorry. From max82 at surfree.com Fri Dec 4 19:29:51 1998 From: max82 at surfree.com (Natalia Pritikina) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 Message-ID: <000501be1fee$c2a93860$fe021a26@maxeskin> And now I messed up again by sending my apology from the wrong email account :( From rexstout at uswest.net Fri Dec 4 19:32:51 1998 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: Cipher 9-tracks Message-ID: Got two of them. One of them is an IBM 4968, not terribly difficult to figure out. But the other one has me stumped. Model number 0920940-98-125OU, I'm not sure if that means it's a 920 or a 940... Part number 155000-103, Option B. Found some spare parts lists at www.4cipher.com that seem to match, but they don't have much info. And I thought I would come here to the list before bothering their sales department(only email address I could find), as they rarely know much of anything that isn't in production... -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From yowza at yowza.com Fri Dec 4 19:35:04 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 In-Reply-To: <000501be1fee$c2a93860$fe021a26@maxeskin> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Natalia Pritikina wrote: > And now I messed up again by sending my apology from the wrong email account > :( OK, Max, so now we know you can't tell a joke and that you're really a woman. Is there anything you'd like to tell us? -- Doug From manney at lrbcg.com Fri Dec 4 19:26:48 1998 From: manney at lrbcg.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: OT: What if Dr. Seuss wrote computer manuals? Message-ID: <01be1fee$5433a1e0$01bfbfbf@toshiba-115cs> Oh, on second though -- not offtopic. Dr. Seuss is >10 yrs old. >What if Dr. Seuss Wrote a Computer Manual??? > >1) If a packet hits a pocket on a socket on a port, and the bus is >interrupted as a very last resort, and the address of the memory makes >your floppy disk abort, then the socket packet pocket has an error to >report. > >2) If your cursor finds a menu item followed by a dash, and the >double-click icon puts your window in the trash, and your data is >corrupted cause the index doesn't hash, then your situation's hopeless >and your system's gonna crash! > >3) If the label on the cable on the table at your house, says the >network is connected to the button on your mouse, but your packets >want to tunnel on another protocol, that's repeatedly rejected by the >printer down the hall, and your screen is all distorted by the side >effects of gauss, so your icons in the window are as wavy as a souse, >then you may as well reboot and go out with a bang, cause as sure as >I'm a poet, the sucker's gonna hang! > >4) When the copy of your floppy's getting sloppy on the disk, and the >microcode instructions cause unnecessary risk, then you have to flash >your memory and you'll want to RAM your ROM. Quickly turn off the >computer and be sure to tell your Mom. From gram at cnct.com Fri Dec 4 19:43:47 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: Off topic -- playing with electrons (was Re: DG Aviion video) References: <000101be1f99$a5d80e50$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <36688FD3.BBC252FD@cnct.com> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > Like tossing charged capacitors across the room to them? > > Or hooking a LARGE choke and a battery to a doorknob? > > I would never do such a thing.:) > > Dan > > Cough... sputter... > > Now look what you did! I almost shot Coke out my nose! > I once fell victim to the charged cap trick, but it's > still funny. When I was in high school, the chess club met in the physics lab during the second period of the day, as most of us were in the first period physics class. The physics teacher knew well not to be the first to the door for third period class. A Van de Graff generator and a half-gallon Leyden jar that had had an hour to charge was likely as not to be somewhere around. (Honest, there were no serious injuries). It was in the USAF electronics tech school where we used to play catch with capacitors. And worse. Caps weren't known as "rectum-fires" for nothing. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From kurtkilg at geocities.com Fri Dec 4 19:47:48 1998 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 Message-ID: <002901be1ff1$46ea6b60$1e021a26@maxeskin> Yes! I admit it! I use Outlook Express! That's why I messed up _two_ times! >woman. Is there anything you'd like to tell us? > >-- Doug > From kurtkilg at geocities.com Fri Dec 4 19:43:25 1998 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 Message-ID: <002401be1ff1$44eb4000$1e021a26@maxeskin> And now I messed up again by sending my apology from the wrong email account :( From kurtkilg at geocities.com Fri Dec 4 19:49:25 1998 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 Message-ID: <003401be1ff1$7fa742c0$1e021a26@maxeskin> Yes! I admit it! I use Outlook Express which is why I messed up so many times! If only I used PINE *sob*sob* I'm ruined!!! >OK, Max, so now we know you can't tell a joke and that you're really >a woman. Is there anything you'd like to tell us? > >-- Doug > From wpe101 at banet.net Fri Dec 4 19:50:13 1998 From: wpe101 at banet.net (Will Emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: On topic: Serious static problem References: Message-ID: <36689155.6DB31588@banet.net> Yeah, try the J. C. Whitney catalog (Chicago Il, US. I believe), if your local auto parts supply store doesn't have these "static ground straps". My wife used to have two of them on her car, as the static would make her clothes "cling".. Plus they're a lot quieter than dragging a chain, although less attention attracting. "R. Stricklin (kjaeros)" wrote: > > On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > > This is giving me fits. There's something strange with my minivan, that it > > generates a *ton* of static electricity whenever I drive even a few > > [...] > > Does anyone know what could be causing this? > > Silicon based rubber in the tires. New vehicles have less carbon in the > rubber and thus the tires are more insulative. This was done in the > interest of reducing rolling friction and increasing fuel economy. What > you should do is get one of those automotive grounding straps from an auto > supply store, and this should do the trick. you've probably seen cars > around that have that black thing hanging from the rear bumper.. that's > what it is. > > I learned this on Car Talk, on NPR. Those two guys are a riot. I agree! Heard on WBUR 91.9, Boston.. Their web site is a subset of www.cars.com... They have several different forums on the site! Will > > ok > r. From yowza at yowza.com Fri Dec 4 19:58:53 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: IBM 5161 In-Reply-To: <36689155.6DB31588@banet.net> Message-ID: I haven't seen one of these in a *long* time. They were rare even back when the PC was king. Somebody closer to VA should go for it: << AJ VA USA - Friday, December 04, 1998 at 20:02:35 I have a IBM Personal Computer Expansion Unit (5161) that has a working power supply & a reciver card, I do NOT have any cabels for this unit. 7 slots are available 4 slots are missing covers. The unit is USED, but working. I Don't have the room to keep it around, so I need to get rid of it. First to make a good offer + Shipping gets it. I come across ORIGINAL IBM PC's, XT's, & AT's plus other "old" systems regularly (Most under $5.xx), If you want me to keep an eye out for the system(s) or part(s) you want/need drop me a note. AJ >> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 4 18:03:10 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: Whose is that program to spawn that *.xls files? In-Reply-To: <199812042218.RAA27198@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@pop.cgocable.net" at Dec 4, 98 05:24:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 452 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981205/2335a12e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 4 18:13:25 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: On topic: Serious static problem In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Dec 4, 98 11:12:11 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1356 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981205/8a0719ec/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Fri Dec 4 20:15:38 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: OT -- luck charms (was Re: DG Aviion video) References: Message-ID: <3668974A.D5CD9EBF@cnct.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > Why can't I just leave the printer by the window and water it once in a > > while? > > You can if it's a VT5x with a copier option (like my VT55). But you still > have to give it paper. > > Some spammer (or at least I assume it's a spammer) has appeared on afc > offering 'computer holy water' as a so-called joke. What's the betting > that I get a pile of computers/monitors with water damage appearing on my > bench soon? Holy water never did a thing for any of my equipment that seemed beneficial. A string of garlic bulbs draped across the top of the monitor does much better. That and talking to it in words of no more and no less than four letters. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From gram at cnct.com Fri Dec 4 20:28:35 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: On topic: Serious static problem References: Message-ID: <36689A53.546D8EDC@cnct.com> Athanasios Kotsenos wrote: > > >What I do now is keep a wrist-strap and a > >box of Bounce dryer sheets (don't laugh) in my jockey box. > > Sorry, but what do the Bounce sheets do? Probably nothing useful. They serve the purpose when inserted in a dryer the Downey does in the washer, chemically treating fabric so as to reduce static electricity. In a vehical, there would be little effect. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From dburrows at netpath.net Fri Dec 4 20:08:26 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video Message-ID: <013e01be1ff6$17b86950$bf281bce@p166> The high voltage spike created when the magnetic field colaspes. AKA Reverse EMF pulse. You need a very large coil or the secondary of a 30kv+ transformer. >How _does_ that work? >>I still laugh thinking about the people that tried to figure out how they >>were getting shocked when they let go of the doornob not when they >>initially touched it. >>Dan >> > From dburrows at netpath.net Fri Dec 4 20:16:42 1998 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: Off topic -- playing with electrons (was Re: DG Aviion video) Message-ID: <013f01be1ff6$18b16f50$bf281bce@p166> >It was in the USAF electronics tech school where we used to play >catch with capacitors. And worse. Caps weren't known as >"rectum-fires" for nothing. Another words you fished the leads up through the holes in the lab stools as well? Dan From gram at cnct.com Fri Dec 4 20:50:23 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: OT: What if Dr. Seuss wrote computer manuals? References: <01be1fee$5433a1e0$01bfbfbf@toshiba-115cs> Message-ID: <36689F6F.E3EA103B@cnct.com> PG Manney wrote: > > Oh, on second though -- not offtopic. Dr. Seuss is +AD4-10 yrs old. +ADw-g+AD4- > > +AD4-What if Dr. Seuss Wrote a Computer Manual??? Actually, that poem scans to Gilbert & Sullivan, rather than to Dr. Seuss. Specifically "Modern Major General". The same tune as Tom Lehrer's "The Elements". Or the (ancient) filk song "I've Built a Better Model Than the One at Data General". -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com Fri Dec 4 20:45:41 1998 From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: On topic: Serious static problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > What else are you touching at the time. In particular are your feet in > the van or on the ground. On the ground. The inside panel of the door is all plastic, and it's not until I touch the side of the door to close it that I get shocked. > If your feet are on the ground, then the most likely thing is that the > vehicle is charging up, due to friction in the tyres. You used to be able > to get grounding straps that you dangle from the underside as a quack > cure for care sickness. But they actually do solve this problem > > If you're still in the vehicle, then most likely you're charging up due > to friction between you and the seat. Well, I can't help but dance when I'm wearing silk bikinis and listening to the Spice Girls... Seriously though, I never get a shock while still inside, so I'm assuming it's the tires/dry climate combination. I dug my JC Whitney catalog out of the recycle bin and will order a couple of those ugly-ass straps tomorrow... Thanks for all the help, everyone! Aaron From gram at cnct.com Fri Dec 4 20:54:17 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: Off topic -- playing with electrons (was Re: DG Aviion video) References: <013f01be1ff6$18b16f50$bf281bce@p166> Message-ID: <3668A059.2E46614C@cnct.com> Daniel T. Burrows wrote: > > >It was in the USAF electronics tech school where we used to play > >catch with capacitors. And worse. Caps weren't known as > >"rectum-fires" for nothing. > Another words you fished the leads up through the holes in the lab stools as > well? Those chairs had been in service in those electronics classrooms for decades. No need to drill holes. Hell, I think some of them were plated through. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com Fri Dec 4 20:49:35 1998 From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: OT: Fabric Softeners (was On topic: Serious static problem) In-Reply-To: <36689A53.546D8EDC@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Athanasios Kotsenos wrote: > > > > >What I do now is keep a wrist-strap and a > > >box of Bounce dryer sheets (don't laugh) in my jockey box. > > > > Sorry, but what do the Bounce sheets do? > > Probably nothing useful. They serve the purpose when inserted in a > dryer the Downey does in the washer, chemically treating fabric so as > to reduce static electricity. In a vehical, there would be little > effect. They do the same thing as diluted Downey from a spray bottle. When I'm carrying static-sensitive things, I take a couple sheets out and rub down the carpet, seats, and plastic panels with them. Actually works fairly well (and I read somewhere that they repel mosquitos too). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 4 20:39:31 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: <98120419091802.01244@localhost.localdomain> from "Max Eskin" at Dec 4, 98 07:04:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2833 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981205/dbdce886/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 4 20:28:01 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: DG Aviion video In-Reply-To: <010501be1fe8$c7d48520$bf281bce@p166> from "Daniel T. Burrows" at Dec 4, 98 07:42:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1986 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981205/84bdec2b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 4 20:30:08 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: IBM 5161 In-Reply-To: from "Doug Yowza" at Dec 4, 98 07:58:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 426 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981205/43a9f4c4/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Fri Dec 4 21:08:57 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: OT: Fabric Softeners (was On topic: Serious static problem) References: Message-ID: <3668A3C9.1445EF9@cnct.com> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > > Athanasios Kotsenos wrote: > > > > > > >What I do now is keep a wrist-strap and a > > > >box of Bounce dryer sheets (don't laugh) in my jockey box. > > > > > > Sorry, but what do the Bounce sheets do? > > > > Probably nothing useful. They serve the purpose when inserted in a > > dryer the Downey does in the washer, chemically treating fabric so as > > to reduce static electricity. In a vehical, there would be little > > effect. > > They do the same thing as diluted Downey from a spray bottle. When I'm > carrying static-sensitive things, I take a couple sheets out and rub down > the carpet, seats, and plastic panels with them. Actually works fairly > well (and I read somewhere that they repel mosquitos too). Downey solution is good enough for me -- those damned dryer sheets cost too much and there's no guage as to when the chemical runs out. To repel mosquitos, I prefer cigars. Since they do double duty and repel liberals as well. (Actually, they repel liberals much better than they repel mosquitos, since the liberals shy away from the rumor and the mosquitos insist on checking out the actual aroma before they avoid the site, and that's experience, not reading). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 4 21:02:17 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: OT -- luck charms (was Re: DG Aviion video) In-Reply-To: <3668974A.D5CD9EBF@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Dec 4, 98 09:15:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 452 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981205/b02ab39e/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Dec 4 21:14:59 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: OT -- luck charms (was Re: DG Aviion video) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Dec 5, 98 03:02:17 am Message-ID: <199812050314.TAA27046@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 702 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981204/26c58f4c/attachment.ksh From yowza at yowza.com Fri Dec 4 21:25:28 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: OT: What if Dr. Seuss wrote computer manuals? In-Reply-To: <01be1fee$5433a1e0$01bfbfbf@toshiba-115cs> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, PG Manney wrote: > If a packet hits a pocket on a socket on a port, and the bus is Does anybody know when this first appeared? I've seen it several times over the years (so that makes it a Classic Self-Propagating Message, I guess). The earliest online instance I found was from 3.5 years ago in DejaNews, but I think that just coincides with the start of DejaNews. -- Doug From stanp at storm.ca Sat Dec 5 21:31:15 1998 From: stanp at storm.ca (Stan Pietkiewicz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: Whose is that program to spawn that *.xls files? References: Message-ID: <3669FA82.F41CDEC8@storm.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Thanks all, just send me privately on this matter if that program can > > be downloadable, then that's great! > > > > This file fell into my lap by a friend asking me to extract this one. > > I'm going to be flamed by all my linux-using friends for knowing this one... > > .xls is from Microsoft Excel. It's and eXceL Sheet - i.e. the spreadsheet > itself. The last time I used Excel - about 10 years ago - there was also > .xlm for the macro files > > -tony I have heard of a package called StarOffice (word processor, spreadsheet, etc.) that can deal with these. StarOffice (free, IIRC) runs under linux, solaris-x86, and possibly a few others. I haven't tried it, but a co-worker has, and he's impressed..... And, no, I don't know where he downloaded it from..... Stan From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com Fri Dec 4 21:52:12 1998 From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: Whose is that program to spawn that *.xls files? In-Reply-To: <3669FA82.F41CDEC8@storm.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Stan Pietkiewicz wrote: > I have heard of a package called StarOffice (word processor, spreadsheet, etc.) > that can deal with these. StarOffice (free, IIRC) runs under linux, solaris-x86, > and possibly a few others. > I haven't tried it, but a co-worker has, and he's impressed..... > > And, no, I don't know where he downloaded it from..... http://www.stardivision.com Free for personal, non-commercial use. (hanging on-topic by a thread by virtue of being able to access Classic data formats) From gram at cnct.com Fri Dec 4 21:58:53 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: Whose is that program to spawn that *.xls files? References: <3669FA82.F41CDEC8@storm.ca> Message-ID: <3668AF7D.258EF998@cnct.com> Stan Pietkiewicz wrote: > I have heard of a package called StarOffice (word processor, spreadsheet, etc.) > that can deal with these. StarOffice (free, IIRC) runs under linux, solaris-x86, > and possibly a few others. > I haven't tried it, but a co-worker has, and he's impressed..... > > And, no, I don't know where he downloaded it from..... StarOffice is a commercial product, though Caldera provides a demo copy with their Linux distribution, and the demo can be downloaded from Caldera and other sites. It doesn't seem to read the latest Excel and Word formats, Microsoft keeps "upgrading" the file format with each release (not that I see any features added) but of course keeping the same extension on the filenames. When I have to use their stuff on the job, I try to remember to save files in older formats, preferably .SLK and .TXT, since I can read those on my classic systems, MultiPlan actually being a _good_ Microsoft product, ranking with Extended Color BASIC. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Dec 4 22:29:18 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: Whose is that program to spawn that *.xls files? In-Reply-To: <3669FA82.F41CDEC8@storm.ca> References: Message-ID: >I have heard of a package called StarOffice (word processor, spreadsheet, >etc.) >that can deal with these. StarOffice (free, IIRC) runs under linux, >solaris-x86, >and possibly a few others. >I haven't tried it, but a co-worker has, and he's impressed..... > >And, no, I don't know where he downloaded it from..... A friend at work was testing it out, it's very impressive, he was able to open all the Excel documents he tried out. The only problems we noticed with 5.0 was that it's kind of sluggish on a PPro 150 w/64Mb, and any child windows are forced to stay inside the main window. I'm getting ready to give it a try on my home system. Version 5.0 is free for personal use, and is close enough to Microsoft Office to be frightening. It has the added advantage of being the most professional feeling one out there (I've used Applix before and didn't like it). Also Corel is supposed to be releaseing it's Office Suite, which includes WordPerfect 8.0 on Linux. I believe it will also be free for personal use. Of course I would assume that the personal use versions aren't as functional as the commercial ones. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Dec 4 22:47:25 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: IBM 5161 Message-ID: <68fa99d1.3668badd@aol.com> i have a few of these extender and reciever cards if anyone wants to strike a deal with me. david In a message dated 98-12-04 22:00:13 EST, you write: > They're also not that useful unless you also can get the 'extender' card > that goes in the PC or XT motherboard. The cable can be made (but it's > nice to find a real one), but the card is quite complex. > From donm at cts.com Fri Dec 4 23:02:05 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: On topic: Serious static problem In-Reply-To: <36689A53.546D8EDC@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Athanasios Kotsenos wrote: > > > > >What I do now is keep a wrist-strap and a > > >box of Bounce dryer sheets (don't laugh) in my jockey box. > > > > Sorry, but what do the Bounce sheets do? > > Probably nothing useful. They serve the purpose when inserted in a > dryer the Downey does in the washer, chemically treating fabric so as > to reduce static electricity. In a vehical, there would be little > effect. Unless, of course, he were to tumble it end over end... - don > -- > Ward Griffiths > > WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, > and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Dec 4 23:10:20 1998 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: SCO Unix anyone? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981204211020.00970750@mail.bluefeathertech.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 755 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981204/7aa9a83b/attachment.bin From donm at cts.com Fri Dec 4 23:34:53 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: OT: What if Dr. Seuss wrote computer manuals? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, PG Manney wrote: > > > If a packet hits a pocket on a socket on a port, and the bus is > > Does anybody know when this first appeared? I've seen it several times > over the years (so that makes it a Classic Self-Propagating Message, I > guess). > > The earliest online instance I found was from 3.5 years ago in DejaNews, > but I think that just coincides with the start of DejaNews. > > -- Doug Rather reminds me of Phil Harris singing "That's what I like about the South"! And that is a bit more than 10 years old :) - don From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Fri Dec 4 22:27:07 1998 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: IBM 5161 Message-ID: <002e01be2007$84e347a0$2a3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> And I have a spare cable if anyone is desparate. >i have a few of these extender and reciever cards if anyone wants to strike a >deal with me. > From gram at cnct.com Fri Dec 4 23:56:49 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: On topic: Serious static problem References: Message-ID: <3668CB21.5F6FC6D5@cnct.com> Don Maslin wrote: > > On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > > Athanasios Kotsenos wrote: > > > > > > >What I do now is keep a wrist-strap and a > > > >box of Bounce dryer sheets (don't laugh) in my jockey box. > > > > > > Sorry, but what do the Bounce sheets do? > > > > Probably nothing useful. They serve the purpose when inserted in a > > dryer the Downey does in the washer, chemically treating fabric so as > > to reduce static electricity. In a vehical, there would be little > > effect. > > Unless, of course, he were to tumble it end over end... Been there, done that. Static electricity was not high on my list of concerns at the time. Rather glad I wasn't sharing the car with an S-100 system, now that I think on it. Though shortly before I'd been turned down for a loan to get $12,000 worth of Cromemco gear and assorted peripherals (early 1979). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Fri Dec 4 19:41:37 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: Whose is that program to spawn that *.xls files? In-Reply-To: References: <199812042218.RAA27198@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@pop.cgocable.net" at Dec 4, 98 05:24:23 pm Message-ID: <199812050635.BAA09459@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 00:03:10 +0000 (GMT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Whose is that program to spawn that *.xls files? > I'm going to be flamed by all my linux-using friends for knowing this one... > > .xls is from Microsoft Excel. It's and eXceL Sheet - i.e. the spreadsheet > itself. The last time I used Excel - about 10 years ago - there was also > .xlm for the macro files You're forgiven... :) I figured out that I could search juse *.xls and it clued me in and thought if I could try the M$ site to see if I could d/l the freeware excel reader and yes it is! Thanks all. > > -tony > > email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Dec 5 00:44:04 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: On topic: Serious static problem References: <199812042119.QAA16839@quartz.netsync.net> <19981204234334.5783.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3668D633.59F5655E@bigfoot.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Christian Fandt wrote: > > You've probably seen fuel tanker trucks with a metal chain > > dragging. It too was used as a static drain for obvious reasons ;) > > I only noticed one of these for the first time about a month ago. I > was wondering why they were dragging a chain; it was throwing lots of > sparks. Didn't seem like a great idea to me, but what do I know? It's not since there shouldn't be sparks as the chain or strap is supposed to be non-ferrous, ie brass or copper. Sure it wears out but no sparks. Just a good ground to earth to drain the buildup from the frame. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Dec 5 00:47:35 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 References: <000301be1fee$99f80b80$fe021a26@maxeskin> Message-ID: <3668D706.8F2B5ECB@bigfoot.com> Oh Natasha dear :-) I got the joke after a few seconds and figured it went the wrong place. I need what was bid on the unit at last auction, $25 plus shipping. Drop me a direct email and we'll discuss it. Kids nowadays, sheesh ;-) Natalia Pritikina wrote: > Well, unfortunately, I replied to Russ's offer for a laptop dock onto the > list. Not only that, I included a joke that I was glad that it's available > but Russ would overprice it. If this went directly to Russ he would have > gotten it, but on the list it makes it seem like he actually overpriced it. > Sorry. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Dec 5 00:59:24 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: OT: Fabric Softeners (was On topic: Serious static problem) References: <3668A3C9.1445EF9@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3668D9CB.4815CC5@bigfoot.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > > > >What I do now is keep a wrist-strap and a > > > > >box of Bounce dryer sheets (don't laugh) in my jockey box. > > > > > > > > Sorry, but what do the Bounce sheets do? > > > > > > Probably nothing useful. They serve the purpose when inserted in a > > > dryer the Downey does in the washer, chemically treating fabric so as > > > to reduce static electricity. In a vehical, there would be little > > > effect. > > > > They do the same thing as diluted Downey from a spray bottle. When I'm > > carrying static-sensitive things, I take a couple sheets out and rub down > > the carpet, seats, and plastic panels with them. Actually works fairly > > well (and I read somewhere that they repel mosquitos too). > > Downey solution is good enough for me -- those damned dryer sheets > cost too much and there's no guage as to when the chemical runs out. There is another point to the Bounce (and similar brands) sheets in the car/truck. Leave them in your vehicle in the hot summer with the windows rolled up sometime and see how your eyes, nose and throat feel in a little bit. The prefume in them is terrible when heated. They do a nice job though by just rubbing a sheet lightly over the velour seats say every month or so. There are commercial products made by reputable manufacturers such as 3M, but at the present time I don't have access to the catalogs of places that carry these items. I know I did buy a good antistat spray from MCM some time back but I'm not sure if it wa safe for fabric. I did use it on the carpet alright though. > To repel mosquitos, I prefer cigars. Since they do double duty and > repel liberals as well. (Actually, they repel liberals much better > than they repel mosquitos, since the liberals shy away from the > rumor and the mosquitos insist on checking out the actual aroma > before they avoid the site, and that's experience, not reading). As will a good pipe filled with black cavendish. Cigarettes here went up an average $4.50 carton so I'm back to the pipe since there was no effect on loose tobacco and I'm not really into rolling my own. Mosquitos are best repelled by staying indoors while drinking a good stiff beer. Liberals can be driven off by other things as well but they are really a little iffy to discuss in this list - too broad a spectrum of people. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Dec 5 01:03:54 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: On topic: Serious static problem References: <3668CB21.5F6FC6D5@cnct.com> Message-ID: <3668DAD9.9414E761@bigfoot.com> Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Been there, done that. Static electricity was not high on my list > of concerns at the time. Rather glad I wasn't sharing the car with > an S-100 system, now that I think on it. Though shortly before I'd > been turned down for a loan to get $12,000 worth of Cromemco gear > and assorted peripherals (early 1979). Back in 79 or so most vehicles still had vinyl seat covers and cloth was an option and as someone else pointed out the newer tires/tyres have less carbon and more insulative silicon now. I don't remember ever getting nailed when on a vinyl cover, other than the 'roids screaming in pain on a frozen seat. Anyone remember the Denim option for the Gremlin way back when? Boy could we start a thread on cars that were worse junkers than some failed computers huh? > -- > Ward Griffiths > > WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, > and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Dec 5 01:10:42 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: On topic: Serious static problem References: <36689155.6DB31588@banet.net> Message-ID: <3668DC71.A48BFA7@bigfoot.com> Will Emerson wrote: > Yeah, try the J. C. Whitney catalog (Chicago Il, US. I believe), if your > local auto parts J.C. Whitney outside Chicago and I still believe Warshawski & Sons in Chicago, on the corner of Archer Ave and State Street. Any mail you get from them is now marked "W & Co." probably to cover both DBAs. Pep Boys and AutoZone, both chain auto parts stores, should have something but I'm guessing the best quality strap would come from a fleet truck parts place where they have to fit DOT quality straps to trucks that carry hazardous materials. If yoy can't locate one, call a nearby trucking outfit and talk to their shop foreman about where you can get one. If they lease then they will have their own mechanic for the company they lease from, such as Ryder. Our trucks at work carry groceries and they still are outfitted with the drag straps by Ryder, especially the refrigerated units. From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Dec 5 03:49:37 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:55 2005 Subject: IBM 5161 Message-ID: <442dbf07.366901b1@aol.com> I probably have a couple of cables. Paxton If interested please reply to whoagiii@aol.com From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com Sat Dec 5 04:05:03 1998 From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: Keyboards In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981204153410.00eaa100@pc> Message-ID: A question for the collective wisdom and distributed awareness of the list: Anybody ever run across parallel ASCII keyboards, something suitable for interfracing to a 6820 port? Serial terminals & kbrds seem much more common - kbrd isn't really a bandwidth hog - but all my software was coded for a parallel port.. Currently I'm using the joystick ports of an Atari 800 (another 6820) - which is actually kinda nice (a programmable keyboard!) but would eventually like to find the real thing. tia Chuck cswiger@widomaker.com From gram at cnct.com Sat Dec 5 08:21:57 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: Whose is that program to spawn that *.xls files? References: <199812042218.RAA27198@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@pop.cgocable.net" at Dec 4, 98 05:24:23 pm <199812050635.BAA09459@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <36694185.8C3BFE98@cnct.com> jpero@pop.cgocable.net wrote: > > > Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 00:03:10 +0000 (GMT) > > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > > Subject: Re: Whose is that program to spawn that *.xls files? > > > I'm going to be flamed by all my linux-using friends for knowing this one... > > > > .xls is from Microsoft Excel. It's and eXceL Sheet - i.e. the spreadsheet > > itself. The last time I used Excel - about 10 years ago - there was also > > .xlm for the macro files > > You're forgiven... :) I figured out that I could search juse *.xls > and it clued me in and thought if I could try the M$ site to see if I > could d/l the freeware excel reader and yes it is! Be careful. Microsoft never gives anything away -- their "free" stuff is intended to addict the unwary. Fortunately, their "free" stuff is about as attractive as a kerosene hangover. (Ask any old jet mechanic whether the high is worth it). -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From gram at cnct.com Sat Dec 5 08:27:44 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: On topic: Serious static problem References: <199812042119.QAA16839@quartz.netsync.net> <19981204234334.5783.qmail@brouhaha.com> <3668D633.59F5655E@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <366942E0.660EF422@cnct.com> Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Eric Smith wrote: > > > Christian Fandt wrote: > > > You've probably seen fuel tanker trucks with a metal chain > > > dragging. It too was used as a static drain for obvious reasons ;) > > > > I only noticed one of these for the first time about a month ago. I > > was wondering why they were dragging a chain; it was throwing lots of > > sparks. Didn't seem like a great idea to me, but what do I know? > > It's not since there shouldn't be sparks as the chain or strap is > supposed to be non-ferrous, ie brass or copper. Sure it wears out but no > sparks. Just a good ground to earth to drain the buildup from the frame. Yes, throwing sparks does sort of defeat the purpose. Never saw one do that, admittedly the only place I ever paid attention was the flight-line back when I did airplanes for a living. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From rcini at msn.com Sat Dec 5 09:06:01 1998 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: System/23??? Message-ID: <007301be2060$e7428c40$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> On Dec 1998 13:05:24 -0600, Russ Blakeman wrote: >>Ok here's one for all those of you familiar with the older IBM iron. I >>have just fallen into a unit that looks much like a TRS-80 model 3 or 4 {snip} That's the somewhat famous Datamaster. I have one, and I have some diskettes, but I have a bad ROM, so it doesn't boot. The Datamaster is a desktop office machine. From what I understand, it did word processing and accounting functions. It has a built-in BASIC interpreter, so you can do some programming. It's based on the 8085 (Intel house numbered). I can't seem to find the correspondence that I had with the guy I got mine from, but his wife worked on the development team. The 23 was the immediate predecessor to the PC. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <================ reply separator =================> From cube at msn.fullfeed.com Sat Dec 5 08:54:09 1998 From: cube at msn.fullfeed.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: Keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19981204153410.00eaa100@pc> Message-ID: <199812051513.JAA03384@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com> I built one, once upon a time, out of a Univac keypunch keyboard and some TTL logic. Worked great. Used it on my Altair for years Really nice LOUD CLICKS. Loved it. I suspect this would be tough to do with a modern PC keyboard, but if you look at really old stuff (like at a state/university surplus sale or some such) you might find something. Jay At 05:05 AM 12/5/98 -0500, cswiger wrote: >A question for the collective wisdom and distributed awareness of >the list: > >Anybody ever run across parallel ASCII keyboards, something suitable >for interfracing to a 6820 port? Serial terminals & kbrds seem much >more common - kbrd isn't really a bandwidth hog - but all my software >was coded for a parallel port.. Currently I'm using the joystick ports >of an Atari 800 (another 6820) - which is actually kinda nice >(a programmable keyboard!) but would eventually like to find the >real thing. > >tia > > Chuck > cswiger@widomaker.com > From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Sat Dec 5 09:51:23 1998 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: OFF Topic: Downy In-Reply-To: <36688D0B.C7BC3049@cnct.com> References: from "R. Stricklin" at Dec 3, 98 06:13:39 pm Message-ID: >> >There are a few things you can do to minimize static. First you can >>either buy >> >an anti-stat spray or get a bottle of Downy and dilute it as >>recommended, then >> >spray a mist over the carpet and let it dry. >> >> Is Downy a detergent for sensitive clothes (the name is familiar)? Or is it >> specifically for this purpose? > >It's a "fabric softener". It leaves a chemical residue after the rinse Pefect for the skin... :)= Nasos From hydros_by_hall at csi.com Sat Dec 5 10:22:26 1998 From: hydros_by_hall at csi.com (Richard A. Hall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 In-Reply-To: <3666F737.3D1FEB35@bigfoot.com> References: <981123112426.2a2002ef@trailing-edge.com> <365996DB.A7BDA86C@rain.org> <366629f7.50319838@smtp.site1.csi.com> <3666F737.3D1FEB35@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <366a5c90.2890285@smtp.site1.csi.com> Russ, Thanks to you and others for the info. Your message caused me to re-visit Compaq's site and I now have a setup disk. I have now set the options to leave the modem off at startup. How does one turn it back on without using setup? Thanks again Richard Hall On Thu, 03 Dec 1998 14:40:24 -0600, you wrote: >What do you need to know? The memory is a special type SIMM available in >1 or 4mb versions and up to 3 can be added. The video modes can be snip . > >Russ Blakeman >Harned, KY > old hydroplane photos http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/hydros_by_hall/ From Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU Sat Dec 5 10:50:10 1998 From: Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: old(ish) computers for sale Message-ID: <12124929@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Hey all -- sorry if this is uninteresting -- I have no idea about the age/value/rarity of these machines, but the CS dept here is selling them, and if anyone's interested, email me privately. This is forwarded from the lab admin. -- MB ---------- * DecStation 500 - the old risc (not alpha) Dec, with keyboard, mouse, and video cables, but without monitor and scsi disk. Apparently these run FreeBSD, though I have never tried it. They don't run Linux. $100 each. * Sun IPC - one of the early sparc architecture machines, it is old enough that most people have never heard of it. I believe that it won't run the newest Sun OS. With a huge 19" or so color monitor, 16 meg memory, and hard drive. One only. $250 * Mac IIci - I have about ten of these puppies, no monitors, but probably a mouse and keyboard if you act fast. $35 * Sun computation center - a Sun-60 desktop server with scsi disk, a sun-120 vme-bus machine with non scsi tape controller, and a 9 track reel-to-reel tape drive. You must remove the (very heavy) tape drive from the rack that it is in. This was much faster than the Vax 11-780 that used to be the heavy Unix machine on campus, back in '89. $250 takes it all. Bring a truck. Small print: All sales are final. This equipment is sold "as is" with absolutely no warranty. I am not able to answer any questions about software installation or setup. You can try the equipment if you want to do all the lugging. The equipment must be removed from Sudikoff Lab within a month - if I find it around after that I will throw it away! There may be viable operating systems on the disks of any machines with disks, but I am not selling any rights to use the software or offering upgrades or replacements. (I believe that the Sun right to use goes with the equipment.) Prices are negotiable. In cases where a disk is included I will sell the item for substantially less without the disk or disk enclosure. If you have to ask how, it is probably not for you.... From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com Sat Dec 5 11:13:03 1998 From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: old(ish) computers for sale In-Reply-To: <12124929@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: On 5 Dec 1998, Marion Bates wrote: > * Sun IPC - one of the early sparc architecture machines, > it is old enough that most people have never heard of it. > I believe that it won't run the newest Sun OS. With > a huge 19" or so color monitor, 16 meg memory, and hard drive. > One only. $250 Unless there is an additional framebuffer installed, the monitor is probably mono (the IPC had a mono FB onboard). It's a 25mhz sbus Sparc in a lunchbox case, and should run newer Solaris just fine (*slow*). It takes 30-pin sims and the usual HD for these was ~200megs. Gstek (www.gstek.com) has these base units on sale for $15 apiece (sans HD, RAM, kbd/mouse, monitor). From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Dec 5 11:25:46 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: old(ish) computers for sale In-Reply-To: <12124929@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: >* DecStation 500 - the old risc (not alpha) Dec, with >keyboard, mouse, and video cables, but without monitor >and scsi disk. Apparently these run FreeBSD, though >I have never tried it. They don't run Linux. They run OpenBSD or NetBSD. FreeBSD currently only supports x86, although I've heard they're adding Alpha support. I assume this is actually a DECstation 5000, these things were built to run Ultrix. Note, they will not run VMS. I could have sworn there was a Linux port, but might be mistaken as I don't keep up with the non-x86 versions of Linux at the moment. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 5 09:57:40 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: Keyboards In-Reply-To: from "cswiger" at Dec 5, 98 05:05:03 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1680 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981205/59418b43/attachment.ksh From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com Sat Dec 5 13:51:52 1998 From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: Keyboards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > A question for the collective wisdom and distributed awareness of > > the list: > > > > Anybody ever run across parallel ASCII keyboards, something suitable > > Looking around here, I can spot the Gemini keyboard. That has a parallel > Ascii interface on it. 7 data lines + strobe. So does the keyboard on a > PERQ 1, but if you raid a PERQ 1 for its keyboard I will LART you :-). > Oh no, I can appreciate things that are worth more as a system than broken up into parts > > At one time (long-discontinued), Maplin sold a kit for a > parallel-interfaced Ascii keyboard. > Mine was a Radio Shack kit - still have the manual > > > My recomendation would be to program a microcontroller to take a serial > keyboard (possibly a PC keyboard, although then you need to have a > scancode-> ascii table in the ROM) input and then output the parallel > format you require. > Sounds better'n being 'LART'd Chuck cswiger@widomaker.com From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com Sat Dec 5 14:08:42 1998 From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: What a coincidence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Members: Just have to brag about this: recently came across a Cromemco S-100 memory, 64KZ-II sans manual. Today went to the local industrial science surplus store, looking thru the military radio manuals when what to my wondering eyes should appear - a 64KZ-II manual addendum!! Not the full thing but has dip switch settings and schematic at least. Produced on a system running the Cromix(tm) OS. BTW - same store recently got in some disk packs, RL01K-DC for DEC. They're selling them for $5. What was the capacity of those things? 5, 10 MB ?? Chuck cswiger@widomaker.com From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com Sat Dec 5 14:20:42 1998 From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: old(ish) computers for sale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > probably mono (the IPC had a mono FB onboard). It's a 25mhz sbus Sparc in > a lunchbox case, and should run newer Solaris just fine (*slow*). It takes > 30-pin sims and the usual HD for these was ~200megs. Gstek (www.gstek.com) A funny story about one of those ~200MB SCSI's - a friend was helping install some 'diskless' workstations, so they gave him the disks and he gave me one, a Maxtor. I had it on a pc, laying on top of a table and one day it went "BLAM!" like someone set off a firecracker, and the pc shut down. Turned power off/on and it came right back like nothing had happened! Turned out to be a reversed biased diode across the power lines let got - nothing important. Chuck cswiger@widomaker.com From dogas at leading.net Sat Dec 5 15:24:18 1998 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: system info request Message-ID: <01be2095$9e050e60$d8c962cf@devlaptop> Hi gang I just pick up a new, which is to say, old system. Of course, it has no suppoting information. I bought it as an 'IMSAI 8048 controll computer'. Its in a nodescript molded black hardshell case, has a hex machine coding panel/keyboard and nine digit led display. Opening it up reveals a single board system +- power supply. Primary chips on the board are i D8243, i D8279-5 (sublabled 4404A hmmm...), and a NEC D8035LC. At the bottom of the board: c 1977 IMSAI MFG CORP., SAN LEARNDRO, CA... and this at opposite corner: 8048cc REV. 1 AR 1. Did that send anyone into a flashback??? Thanks - Mike: dogas+AEA-leading.net From marvin at rain.org Sat Dec 5 15:46:00 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: ebay: Heathkit Hero References: Message-ID: <3669A998.E3A5630D@rain.org> Someone was looking for a Heathkit Hero. Current price is $455 with a little over 2 days left in the auction. URL is http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=47012073 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Dec 5 15:58:00 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: What a coincidence Message-ID: <981205165800.2de004c6@trailing-edge.com> >BTW - same store recently got in some disk packs, RL01K-DC >for DEC. They're selling them for $5. What was the capacity >of those things? 5, 10 MB ?? RL01's are 5 Megabytes - 10240 512-byte blocks, to be exact. You can still buy them new, from DECDirect (1-800-Digital), for ~US$200 a pop. Tim. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Dec 5 16:56:41 1998 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: old(ish) computers for sale Message-ID: <981205175641.2de004ce@trailing-edge.com> >the disks and he gave me one, a Maxtor. I had it on a pc, laying >on top of a table and one day it went "BLAM!" like someone set >off a firecracker, and the pc shut down. Turned power off/on and it >came right back like nothing had happened! Turned out to be important. Ah - you got one of those special NED's (Noise Emitting Diodes), I see. Tim. From donm at cts.com Sat Dec 5 16:57:31 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: On topic: Serious static problem In-Reply-To: <3668D633.59F5655E@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Eric Smith wrote: > > > Christian Fandt wrote: > > > You've probably seen fuel tanker trucks with a metal chain > > > dragging. It too was used as a static drain for obvious reasons ;) > > > > I only noticed one of these for the first time about a month ago. I > > was wondering why they were dragging a chain; it was throwing lots of > > sparks. Didn't seem like a great idea to me, but what do I know? > > It's not since there shouldn't be sparks as the chain or strap is > supposed to be non-ferrous, ie brass or copper. Sure it wears out but no > sparks. Just a good ground to earth to drain the buildup from the frame. Back in my younger days, when I remember static drain chains on tank trucks being common, they were always ferrous and sparks as the steel abraded on stone in the pavement surface was the norm. - don From donm at cts.com Sat Dec 5 17:05:16 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: On topic: Serious static problem In-Reply-To: <366942E0.660EF422@cnct.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > > Eric Smith wrote: > > > > > Christian Fandt wrote: > > > > You've probably seen fuel tanker trucks with a metal chain > > > > dragging. It too was used as a static drain for obvious reasons ;) > > > > > > I only noticed one of these for the first time about a month ago. I > > > was wondering why they were dragging a chain; it was throwing lots of > > > sparks. Didn't seem like a great idea to me, but what do I know? > > > > It's not since there shouldn't be sparks as the chain or strap is > > supposed to be non-ferrous, ie brass or copper. Sure it wears out but no > > sparks. Just a good ground to earth to drain the buildup from the frame. > > Yes, throwing sparks does sort of defeat the purpose. Never saw one > do that, admittedly the only place I ever paid attention was the > flight-line back when I did airplanes for a living. Not really, since the primary purpose is to drain any static charge prior to rigging out the tank filler hose and having a spark at the tank filler pipe. - don > Ward Griffiths > > WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, > and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cws86.kyamk.fi/mirrors/cpm with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 5 16:30:25 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: Keyboards In-Reply-To: from "cswiger" at Dec 5, 98 02:51:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1258 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981205/f9dbda23/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 5 16:48:43 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: system info request In-Reply-To: <01be2095$9e050e60$d8c962cf@devlaptop> from "Mike" at Dec 5, 98 04:24:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 853 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981205/38302822/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Dec 5 17:23:25 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: system info request Message-ID: <199812052323.AA10480@world.std.com> < I just pick up a new, which is to say, old system. Of course, it has n < suppoting information. I bought it as an 'IMSAI 8048 controll computer' < Its in a nodescript molded black hardshell case, has a hex machine codin < panel/keyboard and nine digit led display. Opening it up reveals a sing < board system +- power supply. Primary chips on the board are i D8243, < D8279-5 (sublabled 4404A hmmm...), and a NEC D8035LC. At the bottom of < board: c 1977 IMSAI MFG CORP., SAN LEARNDRO, CA... and this at opposit < corner: 8048cc REV. 1 AR 1. I have one operating! What I don't have is docs other than my memory. I post quarterly or so a "anyone seen dos for this one" request. What it has... 2k of ram that you can run programs from a 1k monitor that can save to cassette and TTY/papertape. The interfaces include OPTO isolated, relays, TTY 20mA currentloop interface and also a audio casette interface. It was a foray into 8035/8048 SBC market. Allison From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Dec 5 19:21:53 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: System/23??? Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981205192153.2e7f59f2@intellistar.net> FWIW I got this from a friend at IBM. > >Joe, >Thanks for the offer but I have no interest in it a S/23. By the >way....Token ring didn't exist when we sold these things..I'm not sure what >he is referring to. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Dec 5 17:46:56 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: new hamfest additions Message-ID: <9b875876.3669c5f0@aol.com> good size hamfest in greensboro, nc and here is what i picked up. epson hx20 complete with plastic carrying case. where can i get the tiny cassette tapes for it and it also has a expansion unit added on the left. what does that do? no ac adaptor to test yet. the guy also had a commodore sx64, but too expensive. also picked up a ps2 model 60 that worked fine once i ran reconfig on it. an interesting find is a complete ti99/4a system still sealed in its box along with the expansion unit and optional floppy drive, all for $15. the 3 boxes were never opened until i did it. it's the beige model rebadged by CDC for schools here in raleigh. i also got ~50 disk based school software titles for it as well. all of it's worthless of course, but interesting to find something well over 10 years old and never saw the light of day until now. david From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Dec 5 19:51:21 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: Keyboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981205195121.41d70684@intellistar.net> At 10:30 PM 12/5/98 +0000, Tony D. wrote: >The obvious source of parallel ASCII keyboards is the Apple ][, of >course. And they're not exactly hard to find, are they? I don't think >anyone would flame too much if you raided one of those. > Tony, Do you have the pinouts of that keyboard? If so can you post them here? I know it would be easy enough to figure out but it would save time if you could post it. Joe From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Dec 5 18:19:18 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: System/23??? Message-ID: <35d3bf09.3669cd86@aol.com> I believe the two 9 pin connectors went to a printer and to a modem if you needed one. Prob. both are serial ports. I may have printer cables in my whse. Paxton reply to whoagiii@aol.com if interested. Portland, Oregon From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 5 18:18:29 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: Keyboards In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981205195121.41d70684@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Dec 5, 98 07:51:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 680 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981206/ea14864e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 5 18:27:24 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: new hamfest additions In-Reply-To: <9b875876.3669c5f0@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at Dec 5, 98 06:46:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1225 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981206/7f694440/attachment.ksh From gareth.knight2 at which.net Sat Dec 5 19:21:56 1998 From: gareth.knight2 at which.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: system info request Message-ID: <03a601be20b6$f18f7540$8968a8c2@gareth.knight2> Greetz all, I'm buying an old 486 and want to try some of the FREE alternative OS' (no Microsoft stuff thank you) that are available for it. Operating systems such as GEM, QNX, OS/2 and GEOS. Can anyone recommend any other that can be run, such as embedded or old operating systems? -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide | ICQ No. 24185856 http://welcome.to/aig | "Shine on your star" From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com Sat Dec 5 19:57:13 1998 From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: Documentation Available Message-ID: I finally put up some new shelves and was able to go through a few boxes of books today. What I ended up with was a few spare things, which are available to anyone who wants to pay shipping. Anything unwanted will go to the recycling bin for Tuesday morning's pickup... SunOS 4.1 System Manual, volumes I and II (missing III, it may be here) SunOS 4.0 Network Administrator's Guide SunView Programmers Guide (above are in large 3-ring binders) Sperry PC-IT Manual set (System Guide, DOS, BASIC mini-binders in boxes) Please contact me privately... Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Dec 5 20:28:31 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: system info request Message-ID: <199812060228.AA06233@world.std.com> < I'm buying an old 486 and want to try some of the FREE alternative OS' ( < Microsoft stuff thank you) that are available for it. Operating systems < as GEM, QNX, OS/2 and GEOS. Can anyone recommend any other that can be r < such as embedded or old operating systems? If you have at least 8meg of ram in that 486 try Linux, Freebsd, OpenBSD or NetBSD. These are all free (maybe a few dollars for the CDrom) and represent high performance unix operating systems of various flavors that are mostly similar if not the same. I'm not a unix fan but compared to MSwinders and the dos similars (other than OS/2 warp or concurrent cpm) it's a real screamer. Another one if your interested in OS internals is Minix, the disk set to install on a 486 is only a dozen floppies and it will fit with sources on a 40mb drive. It's unix but simpler, of the V6 flavor. it's simplicity makes it quite fast! Allison From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Dec 5 20:51:30 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: What a coincidence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >BTW - same store recently got in some disk packs, RL01K-DC >for DEC. They're selling them for $5. What was the capacity >of those things? 5, 10 MB ?? They are the 5Mb packs used in RL-01 drives. The RL-02's are preferable since they are 10Mb, the packs for the 2's also have a shock indicator, which I've not seen on 1's. If the indicator has turned, it's a good bet the pack has problems, but not always. Anyone know how hard it is to re-balance a pack? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ddameron at earthlink.net Sat Dec 5 21:04:22 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: Keyboards Message-ID: <199812060304.TAA20635@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Hi All, Fair Radio sales has (in their last cat.) 3 parallel keyboards for US$10, "Cheap" because "the IBM PC standard killed the market for them". They are at: www2.wcoil.com/~fairadio At 02:51 PM 12/5/98 -0500, you wrote: > >> > >> > A question for the collective wisdom and distributed awareness of >> > the list: >> > >> > Anybody ever run across parallel ASCII keyboards, something suitable -Dave From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sat Dec 5 21:20:57 1998 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: VAX collectors attention Message-ID: <032601be20c7$7d38ae80$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: Huw Davies To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, 3 December 1998 14:54 Subject: Re: VAX collectors attention >Excuse me, I've still got one in production and a couple of spares in my >"spares" room.... I think you should open your spares room to the public and charge admission. :^) >>Allison or one of the other Master Decologists will doubtless correct any >>mistakes in the above. :^) > >Well I'm not Allison :-) No, but it's a safe bet you fit the "or one of the other" etc. option. :^) cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax) From yowza at yowza.com Sat Dec 5 21:33:26 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: Mosaic Twin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Man, pickings are getting slim around here. After looking around for anything of any historic significance, all I could come up with is a shrink-wrapped copy of Mosaic Twin. This was a Lotus 123 clone from around 1986. In 1987, Lotus sued Mosaic for violating their look-and-feel copyright and won! (So, I assume all copies were recalled and destroyed and mine is the only surviving copy, right?) I remember that Lotus tried to sue Borland too, and lost, but they lost because Quattro Pro wasn't an exact clone. I don't remember if the idea of look-and-feel copyright was ever thrown out, though. Was it? How similar is Star Office to Microsoft Office, BTW? -- Doug From roblwill at usaor.net Sun Dec 6 00:04:38 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: HP Vectra networking (26 days OT) Message-ID: <01be20de$4e832a40$LocalHost@THEGENERAL> This is about 26 days off-topic. I have an old HP Vectra RS/25-c 386-25/1MB RAM, 100MB HD, 1.2 MB floppy. (BIOS dated 1989). I"m trying to get it set up as a home server, but I first need a few things: -Setup software. -Networking software compatible with the internal networking card (there"s a plug next to the keyboard connector that looks like it wants to be connected to some sort of network hub). -An old Vectra keyboard? Can't get the numeric keypad to work on the keyboard I have. -Networking hardware (mainly a hub and network cards) I have a copy of DR-DOS 7.x with networking extensions. Will this work with the Vectra (haven"t installed it yet)? For one thing, I don"t even know if there"s something in setup that enables/disables the network card. I"d like to use the built-in card, since most of the networked computers will be 8086"s -286"s, and speed isn"t an issue. ThAnX, -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From kurtkilg at geocities.com Sat Dec 5 21:48:32 1998 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: Mosaic Twin In-Reply-To: <199812060345.WAA01390@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Dec 1998 yowza@yowza.com wrote: > How similar is Star Office to Microsoft Office, BTW? Nowadays, with the advent of the GUI, look and feel lawsuits are meaningless. Everything looks the same anyway. > > -- Doug > > ---------------------------------------------------- Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor From kurtkilg at geocities.com Sat Dec 5 21:52:05 1998 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: OT HP vectra networking In-Reply-To: <199812060349.WAA01405@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Dec 1998 roblwill@usaor.net wrote: > -Networking software compatible with the internal networking card (there"s a > plug next to the keyboard connector that looks like it wants to be connected > to some sort of network hub). As far as I am aware, that's a weirdo keyboard connector. There's a matching one in the monitor and the keyboard. > -An old Vectra keyboard? Can't get the numeric keypad to work on the > keyboard I have. > -Networking hardware (mainly a hub and network cards) > > I have a copy of DR-DOS 7.x with networking extensions. Will this work with > the Vectra (haven"t installed it yet)? For one thing, I don"t even know if > there"s something in setup that enables/disables the network card. I"d like > to use the built-in card, since most of the networked computers will be > 8086"s -286"s, and speed isn"t an issue. > > ThAnX, > -- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > ---------------------------------------------------- Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Dec 5 21:56:26 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: System/23??? References: <3.0.1.16.19981205192153.2e7f59f2@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <366A0069.3B7D3629@bigfoot.com> Does he possibly have an idea of any available docs at IBm or on one of their sites? Thanks for the forward. Joe wrote: > FWIW I got this from a friend at IBM. > > > > >Joe, > >Thanks for the offer but I have no interest in it a S/23. By the > >way....Token ring didn't exist when we sold these things..I'm not sure what > >he is referring to. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Dec 5 21:58:35 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: System/23??? References: <007301be2060$e7428c40$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Message-ID: <366A00E9.891DB339@bigfoot.com> I have two of them, one in complete shape and one that has been semi-gutted to include a broken crt neck. If you can give me an idea of the board or chip number/location I may be able to get you the board or chips from the gutted one for the shipping costs alone. Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > On Dec 1998 13:05:24 -0600, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > >>Ok here's one for all those of you familiar with the older IBM iron. I > >>have just fallen into a unit that looks much like a TRS-80 model 3 or 4 > {snip} > > That's the somewhat famous Datamaster. I have one, and I have some > diskettes, but I have a bad ROM, so it doesn't boot. > > The Datamaster is a desktop office machine. From what I understand, it did > word processing and accounting functions. It has a built-in BASIC > interpreter, so you can do some programming. It's based on the 8085 (Intel > house numbered). I can't seem to find the correspondence that I had with the > guy I got mine from, but his wife worked on the development team. The 23 was > the immediate predecessor to the PC. > > [ Rich Cini/WUGNET > [ ClubWin!/CW7 > [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking > [ Collector of "classic" computers > [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ > <================ reply separator =================> From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Dec 5 22:00:58 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 References: <981123112426.2a2002ef@trailing-edge.com> <365996DB.A7BDA86C@rain.org> <366629f7.50319838@smtp.site1.csi.com> <3666F737.3D1FEB35@bigfoot.com> <366a5c90.2890285@smtp.site1.csi.com> Message-ID: <366A0179.4796CBD2@bigfoot.com> You may try sending the string ECHO ATA >COMx (x is the comport number) at the DOS prompt to see if it wakes up and makes a hellacious scream (that will quit in a few seconds). If so then the modem will stay asleep until an intialization string is sent to it. Richard A. Hall wrote: > Russ, > Thanks to you and others for the info. Your message caused me to re-visit > Compaq's site and I now have a setup disk. I have now set the options to leave > the modem off at startup. How does one turn it back on without using setup? > Thanks again > Richard Hall > > On Thu, 03 Dec 1998 14:40:24 -0600, you wrote: > > >What do you need to know? The memory is a special type SIMM available in > >1 or 4mb versions and up to 3 can be added. The video modes can be > snip > . > > > >Russ Blakeman > >Harned, KY > > > > old hydroplane photos http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/hydros_by_hall/ From manney at lrbcg.com Sat Dec 5 21:56:39 1998 From: manney at lrbcg.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: OT: What if Dr. Seuss wrote computer manuals? Message-ID: <01be20cc$6dafaf40$01bfbfbf@toshiba-115cs> Actually, I was reminded of +ACI-Iolanthe+ACI-. manney +AD4APg- +AD4-What if Dr. Seuss Wrote a Computer Manual??? +AD4- +AD4-Actually, that poem scans to Gilbert +ACY- Sullivan, rather than to Dr. +AD4-Seuss. Specifically +ACI-Modern Major General+ACI-. The same tune as Tom +AD4-Lehrer's +ACI-The Elements+ACI-. Or the (ancient) filk song +ACI-I've Built a +AD4-Better Model Than the One at Data General+ACI-. +AD4--- +AD4-Ward Griffiths +ADw-mailto:gram+AEA-cnct.com+AD4- +ADw-http://www.cnct.com/home/gram/+AD4- +AD4- +AD4-WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, +AD4-and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. +AD4- From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat Dec 5 22:09:48 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: ot by 28 days - the 386 Vectra Message-ID: <199812060409.VAA29157@calico.litterbox.com> HP has very good support web pages. Vectras appear to be at http://www.support.vectra.hp.com:8001/ They don't seem to have a lot of stuff prior to the 486 era, but there are some references to 386s. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From dogas at leading.net Sat Dec 5 22:58:16 1998 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: system info request Message-ID: <01be20d5$093a6f60$f8c962cf@devlaptop> Thanks Allison & Tony for the info on the 8048. Allison, I got one of those infamous after the sale posts from the seller that he thought he might have the docs and if so would send them along. I'll certainly keep you in mind if this should transpire. Thanks again. - Mike:dogas@leading.net p.s. Anyone have the opcode listing for a 8048? From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Dec 5 23:34:29 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: What a coincidence Message-ID: <199812060534.AA10129@world.std.com> < which I've not seen on 1's. If the indicator has turned, it's a good be < the pack has problems, but not always. Anyone know how hard it is to < re-balance a pack? The shock indicator was purchasable before it became standard. It's not a matter of balance, were talking warped. If dropped at various angles the 14" platter can become seriously nonplanar and kill the heads. Allison From hydros_by_hall at csi.com Sat Dec 5 23:45:31 1998 From: hydros_by_hall at csi.com (Richard A. Hall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 In-Reply-To: <366A0179.4796CBD2@bigfoot.com> References: <981123112426.2a2002ef@trailing-edge.com> <365996DB.A7BDA86C@rain.org> <366629f7.50319838@smtp.site1.csi.com> <3666F737.3D1FEB35@bigfoot.com> <366a5c90.2890285@smtp.site1.csi.com> <366A0179.4796CBD2@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <366c1963.51236353@smtp.site1.csi.com> No go Russ, I tried the ATA both from Dos and from Procomm Plus. I also tries "+++" to no avail. Any other Ideas? On Sat, 05 Dec 1998 22:00:58 -0600, you wrote: >You may try sending the string ECHO ATA >COMx (x is the comport number) at the >DOS prompt to see if it wakes up and makes a hellacious scream (that will quit in >a few seconds). If so then the modem will stay asleep until an intialization >string is sent to it. > From marvin at rain.org Sun Dec 6 00:12:20 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: ebay: Commodore Pet w/ Chicklet keyboard References: <01be20de$4e832a40$LocalHost@THEGENERAL> Message-ID: <366A2044.6D71EA30@rain.org> Kind of interesting to follow what these things are selling for. Is the need for Christmas money bringing these things out :) ? Current price is $110 with 4+ days left. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=46646006 From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Dec 6 00:11:40 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: HP Vectra networking (26 days OT) In-Reply-To: "Jason Willgruber"'s message of Sat, 5 Dec 1998 22:04:38 -0800 References: <01be20de$4e832a40$LocalHost@THEGENERAL> Message-ID: <199812060611.WAA25172@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Jason Willgruber" writes: > -Networking software compatible with the internal networking card (there"s a > plug next to the keyboard connector that looks like it wants to be connected > to some sort of network hub). Looks can be deceiving. That might be an HP-HIL connector -- does it have a picture of the corresponding plug with one or two dots on the cable, or maybe just the one or two dots? If so, it's HIL, and is there so you can hook up a Vectra HIL keyboard (as shipped with the real original Vectras that don't have alphabet soup after the word "Vectra") or an HIL mouse or an HIL monitor w/touchscreen. -Frank McConnell From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Sat Dec 5 19:51:47 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 In-Reply-To: <366c1963.51236353@smtp.site1.csi.com> References: <366A0179.4796CBD2@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <199812060645.BAA02598@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 05:45:31 GMT > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: hydros_by_hall@csi.com (Richard A. Hall) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Compaq SLT/286 > No go Russ, I tried the ATA both from Dos and from Procomm Plus. I also tries > "+++" to no avail. Any other Ideas? > > > On Sat, 05 Dec 1998 22:00:58 -0600, you wrote: > > >You may try sending the string ECHO ATA >COMx (x is the comport number) at the > >DOS prompt to see if it wakes up and makes a hellacious scream (that will quit in > >a few seconds). If so then the modem will stay asleep until an intialization > >string is sent to it. > > > I have read many compaq manuals, you need to d/l the utilities from compaq and use I think mode program is what does that or something like that. www.compaq.com, site guide, support resources, portables, out of production, select SLT 286. Oh rats, no utilities easier enough to find for that poor guy! :( any solutions? Jason D. Still user of parted out and breaking down LTE 386s/20 and former owner of SLT 286 and 386s/20, soon to be a new owner of Aero 4/25! email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Dec 6 01:23:31 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:56 2005 Subject: system info request In-Reply-To: <03a601be20b6$f18f7540$8968a8c2@gareth.knight2> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Dec 1998, Gareth Knight wrote: > I'm buying an old 486 and want to try some of the FREE alternative OS' (no > Microsoft stuff thank you) that are available for it. Operating systems such > as GEM, QNX, OS/2 and GEOS. Can anyone recommend any other that can be run, > such as embedded or old operating systems? The last I heard, none of the OS' you mention are free. Try Linux or FreeBSD. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 11/02/98] From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Dec 6 02:48:22 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: x86 OS's (was: Re: system info request) In-Reply-To: References: <03a601be20b6$f18f7540$8968a8c2@gareth.knight2> Message-ID: Sam Ismail wrote: >On Sun, 6 Dec 1998, Gareth Knight wrote: > >> I'm buying an old 486 and want to try some of the FREE alternative OS' (no >> Microsoft stuff thank you) that are available for it. Operating systems such >> as GEM, QNX, OS/2 and GEOS. Can anyone recommend any other that can be run, >> such as embedded or old operating systems? > >The last I heard, none of the OS' you mention are free. Try Linux or >FreeBSD. GEM - Doesn't this run on top of CP/M-86 and/or maybe DOS, since it's DR I believe it's free for personal use. I doubt it would be very useful. QNX - There is a free demo version, about all you can do is surf the web with it though. The demo boots from floppy. OS/2 - About the only thing out there on the PC more non-free would be WinNT Server or OPENSTEP. I've run versions 1.3 through 3.0 on a 486/33 first with 8Mb, and then 20Mb. It's a great OS, but basically dead. GEOS - Runs on top of DOS, the company currently supporting it, had been providing some sort of demo version for it. It looks really great actually, and come to think of it I believe my above mentioned 486 has a copy on it somewhere (probably still on a Linux partition) that I downloaded to try a year or so ago. I'd forgotten about it. Unfortunatly they no longer support the really low end systems, I can't remember if they still support the 286 or not. Should run great on a 486 and from what I saw provide a useful system. CP/M-86 - Free for personal use. I've got a hard drive in a sled for my P133 that has CP/M-86 loaded on it, but I've not really played with it, and am not sure what would be available. OpenDOS - Originally DR DOS, then Novel DOS. Caldera now owns it and the rest of the Digital Research software such as CP/M. Free for personal use. They seem to be trying to sell it for embedded apps. FreeDOS - A FREE opensource version of DOS. IBM PC-DOS - Can you believe CompUSA still carries this? MS DOS - Shouldn't be hard to find copies at Goodwill, etc. MS Win95/98/NT - In a word, the work of the Devil. TSX-32 - Is there a demo version? I gather the commercial version is seriously expensive. Based on TSX-11, the same company did both. NextStep - Commercial, but you might be able to find a version of 3.3 fairly cheap. It's very nice. OPENSTEP will run on a 486, but personally I recommend a Pentium for it. Think BSD UNIX running on a Mach Microkernel with a custom (not X-Windows) GUI. Beautiful, ahead of it's time, the Lighthouse apps are now available for free for personal use, and provide all the apps you need. I can't say enough good about this OS, but Apple bought it and it became... Rhapsody - Well, you've got to be a Apple Developer to have a copy, it's OPENSTEP heritage is glaringly obvious though getting better. Now called MacOS X, MacOS X Server, or some such. I really like MacOS, so am looking forward to the finished product. I can't stand the new name though, sounds to much like part of X-Windows! BeOS - I don't think there is a x86 Demo version, and I don't think it will run on a 486. I've not played with a x86 version, but the PPC versions I've played with on a Mac didn't impress me. SCO Unix/Xenix - Commercial UNIX, I think a personal use version of SCO Unix is available Sun Solaris x86 - Free for personnal use, BUT you've got to sign up for their developer program (apparently free), and pay $10 for shipping and handling, you can get either the x86 or Sparc/UltraSparc versions. Various other commercial UNIX's - If you can find them, they'd probably be cheap used software. Linux - This is a FREE OS, it's also one of the best OS's out there in my not so humble opinion. I've currently got four different systems that run Linux, though I normally only have one of them up. A 486 can handle it without any problem, though you'll want more than 8Mb RAM if you intend to run X-Windows. All kinds of useful software out there that is free for Linux, and there is starting to be a lot of commercial software available. A lot of which is free for personal use (WordPerfect is a good example). Supports x86, Alpha, PPC, 68k, ARM, Sparc, and I think a couple other processors. FreeBSD - Well, Linux is a System V varient, and FreeBSD is obviously a BSD varient. That about sums it up. It's x86, but I've heard they're adding Alpha support. NetBSD - NetBSD is cool, their aim is to support as many platforms as possible, and they support a lot! OpenBSD - Their aim is Security, they run on most platforms supported by NetBSD. I've just set up a DEC Alpha running OpenBSD and so far am impressed. As far as security, well, I just ran 'Saint' on my PII running RedHat 5.1, and my Alpha running OpenBSD 2.4. It turns out I'm running network services I don't want to on the Linux box, and I hadn't even realized it. Plus there are some definite vulnerablities. On the OpenBSD box however, it's only running what I _TURNED ON_, and 'Saint' recommended turning off 'R Services' and 'finger'. I know I've missed a few, but they're probably more obscure than some I've listed here. I'd recommend Linux, or a used copy of Nextstep or OS/2 (Nextstep has better Office Apps, and you can get them free). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From yowza at yowza.com Sun Dec 6 03:50:59 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: x86 OS's (was: Re: system info request) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Dec 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > MS Win95/98/NT - In a word, the work of the Devil. Hey, watch it! That's five words :-) -- Doug From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Dec 6 07:45:52 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: PET keyboard (was: Re: Replacing 6550s) In-Reply-To: <199811290504.VAA09740@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Nov 1998, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::"chiclet keyboard" != "rubber keys", IMHO. I'm talking about the cute > ::multicoloured keyboard with the small plastic keys that are arranged in a > ::grid pattern. I call that a chiclet keyboard. > > Hmm, okay. But multicoloured? Which colours? Arranged how? It's not the keys themselves (they're made of white plastic) but the square inserts on top of them that are coloured. Red, dark blue, pale blue, grey. The SHIFT keys, SPACE, RETURN, CLR/HOME, and INST/DEL are red with white letters. OFF/RVS, RUN/STOP, and the to CRSR keys are dark blue with white lettering. All of the letters, the numbers, ':', and '.' are grey with black lettering. All else is pale blue with black lettering. The blues and grey are somewhat metallic in appearance. A very funky keyboard. > -- > -------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser Information Technology Services Database Programmer > Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 > ckaiser@ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 > -- When in doubt, take a pawn. -- Mission: Impossible ("Crack-Up") ------------ -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Dec 6 08:05:20 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: PET Video (was: Replacing 6550s) & 128 In-Reply-To: <3661C61F.C91B1339@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Nov 1998, Larry Anderson wrote: > > From: Doug Spence > > Subject: Re: Replacing 6550s > > > (I especially find it cool that they list various part numbers for the > > connector. :) ) > > Digikey is the best source for inexpensive PET compatible connectors. > (1-800-DIGI-KEY) along with a ton of other cool parts. Thanks for the tip! > > I just noticed for the first time (!) that the "PARALLEL USER PORT" has > > pins labeled "T.V. Video", "T.V. Vertical", and "T.V. Horizontal"! Has > > anyone actually connectd a TV or external monitor to a PET? > > There are plans for a composite video converter using those pins in Nick > Hampshire's PET Revealed, I think it only works on the older 9" screen pets > and not the 12" ones. The reason for it being on the user port was for deaier > diagnostic testing. > > I'll scan the circuit and put it on-line tonite: > > http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/petvideo.gif :) Cool. Another excuse to visit your website... again. :) > > ::"chiclet keyboard" != "rubber keys", IMHO. I'm talking about the cute > > ::multicoloured keyboard with the small plastic keys that are arranged in a > > ::grid pattern. I call that a chiclet keyboard. > > > > Hmm, okay. But multicoloured? Which colours? Arranged how? > > Ummm they were all metallic tops, Red, Gold, Blue, Silver... Check out my > PET page: Gold? Your PETs have gold keys? I have two shades of blue. And my red keys look significantly less metallic than the others. I couldn't tell if they were 'metallic' or if I was looking at the nail polish my brother coated the keys with to keep the printing from rubbing off. -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Dec 6 10:31:05 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: System/23??? In-Reply-To: <366A0069.3B7D3629@bigfoot.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19981205192153.2e7f59f2@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981206103105.452ff6f4@intellistar.net> Yes, he can check on docs. He got a service manual for me for my 5100. It was THE last manual of any kind that IBM had for the 5100. What are you looking for? Joe At 09:56 PM 12/5/98 -0600, you wrote: >Does he possibly have an idea of any available docs at IBm or on one of their >sites? Thanks for the forward. > >Joe wrote: > >> FWIW I got this from a friend at IBM. >> >> > >> >Joe, >> >Thanks for the offer but I have no interest in it a S/23. By the >> >way....Token ring didn't exist when we sold these things..I'm not sure what >> >he is referring to. > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Dec 6 10:34:57 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: Keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19981205195121.41d70684@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981206103457.30274cd6@intellistar.net> Thanks Tony. I'll add that to my references. Never know when I might need a parallel keyboard. I KNEW I should have kept that APPLE reference manual I gave Phil. Joe At 12:18 AM 12/6/98 +0000, you wrote: >[ Apple ][ ] >> Do you have the pinouts of that keyboard? If so can you post them here? >> I know it would be easy enough to figure out but it would save time if you >> could post it. > >Sure. Note this is for the Apple ][ and ][+ only. The //e has a different >keyboard with the encoder chip on the mainboard. I've got details of that >as well, but it's not a parallel ASCII keyboard. > >The pinout for the Apple ][ keyboard (16 pin IC socket type of connector) >is (from the Apple ][ reference manual) : > >+5V 1 16 N/C >Strobe 2 15 -12V >Reset 3 14 N/C >N/C 4 13 D1 >D5 5 12 D0 >D4 6 11 D3 >D6 7 10 D2 >Gnd 8 9 N/C > >Hope that helps > >-tony > > From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Dec 6 08:45:51 1998 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: Replacing 6550s In-Reply-To: <802566CC.0063F2A9.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Nov 1998 Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > Doug Spence wrote: > > >> The original PET came with four different motherboard variations, viz: > >> > >> RAM = 6550, ROM = 6540 > > > > Both of my PETs are of this type, but one has the small keyboard and > > internal tape drive, and the other has the big keyboard. > > Large keyboard on a machine that early is a new one on me! I don't know that machine's entire history, so I suppose it's *possible* that the top half doesn't match the bottom half. Maybe I should inspect the hinge very carefully. :) It does have a blue-trimmed 9" white display, though, and I can't imagine anyone going to the bother of removing the Sphynx's head to change its paws. The front sticker is no longer on it. Apparently it now lives on a guitar owned by the bother of this PET, two owners ago. This particular PET also has upgrade ROMs, not the originals. Apparently this particular PET was 'the very first personal computer used at Air Canada'. > Blue trim was dropped fairly early - both the machines we had at school > were black trim - as was the rebadged cassette deck with the lift-the-lid > eject mechanism, the latter being replaced by the C2N. I had always > assummed that 1000035 meant the 35th machine with the 220-240V power > supply. Well, it still could mean that. I don't know when Commodore started making the things in Europe as compared to North America. Canada probably got a lot of the first PETs because Commodore was such a big company in Canada before the personal computer era. > > Actually, IIRC my small-keyboard PET uses little rubber cups. But I > > suppose there may be springs as well. The keyboard didn't work when I got > > it, so I had to disassemble it and wipe the circuit board clean. I never > > disassembled it beyond pulling the circuit board off. > > No rubber cups. Rubber cups or domes always in my experience give some > sort of mechanical hysteresis when you press them. All PET keyboards I've > used are smooth until they hit the stop. Small keyboard had little black > rubber pads set into the plastic mouldings of the keys. I think there are rubber cups of some sort, but they may be soft protective things rather than what provides the 'bounce'. I just tried both PET keyboards and compared the feel to other keyboards, and you're right, they are smooth. Potential 'rubber cup' keyboards: CoCo 1, Amiga 3000. Weird undefinable keyboard that mushes/springs at the bottom: Atari 130XE. :) > Only the lack of power. Flying lead from cartridge to 2nd cassette port is > the usual solution AFAIK (it's what I did on my RAM expansion). No, I've > never heard of ROM cartridges like this but I've met other things I think. > ROM expansion usually went inside... Where would you put ROM expansion? There's no empty sockets in this model PET. > > Why do POKE and PEEK fail there? Was that done on purpose or is it just > > the result of something lame like using a signed value to represent > > addresses? > > No, it's software. It was a feature that was supposed to prevent > inquisitive geeks disassembling the BASIC ROM between $C000 and (I think) > $E7FF. The OS ROMs, above $F000, were peekable, though, as was the I/O > space in the E block. You could of course peek and poke the screen, $8000 > - $83E7 inclusive. An inquisitive geek wouldn't be stopped long by that! Bill should have known better. :) > I'll try and dig out my RAM expansion board, and work out what it did. > Meanwhile, have fun! No fun until all my assignments and exams are done. :/ > Philip. -- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ From gram at cnct.com Sun Dec 6 09:04:38 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: old(ish) computers for sale References: <981205175641.2de004ce@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <366A9D06.8D984213@cnct.com> CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > >the disks and he gave me one, a Maxtor. I had it on a pc, laying > >on top of a table and one day it went "BLAM!" like someone set > >off a firecracker, and the pc shut down. Turned power off/on and it > >came right back like nothing had happened! Turned out to be > >important. > > Ah - you got one of those special NED's (Noise Emitting Diodes), > I see. Some people have all the luck -- I've never seen (or heard) a noise-emitting diode. Lots of smoke-emitting diodes and light-emitting resistors in the past, however. And of course the occasional glop-emitting capacitor. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From gram at cnct.com Sun Dec 6 09:37:47 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: Mosaic Twin References: Message-ID: <366AA4CA.C4764480@cnct.com> Max Eskin wrote: > > On Sat, 5 Dec 1998 yowza@yowza.com wrote: > > How similar is Star Office to Microsoft Office, BTW? > > Nowadays, with the advent of the GUI, look and feel lawsuits are > meaningless. Everything looks the same anyway. They finally seem to have accepted the automotive model -- Fords and Chevrolets have pretty well the same controls and displays in pretty much the same places. That and the ludicrosity of Apple suing Microsoft for borrowing concepts that Apple had borrowed from Xerox. Of course, with Apple and Microsoft sharing a bed, you have to wonder who is stealing the blankets. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From marvin at rain.org Sun Dec 6 10:56:17 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: ebay Altair Music Record References: <3.0.1.16.19981205195121.41d70684@intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.19981206103457.30274cd6@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <366AB731.28DDC9EA@rain.org> Hi John, Saw this and I thought you would be interested. The bidding is closed, but it will give you an idea of what it sold for. http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=4545633 From marvin at rain.org Sun Dec 6 11:19:21 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: ebay Altair Music Record References: <3.0.1.16.19981205195121.41d70684@intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.19981206103457.30274cd6@intellistar.net> <366AB731.28DDC9EA@rain.org> Message-ID: <366ABC99.989888C7@rain.org> Oops, meant that to go private. Oh well, but at least it will give you listmembers interested in computerized music an idea of what this stuff is going for ... at least on ebay :). Marvin wrote: > > Hi John, > > Saw this and I thought you would be interested. The bidding is closed, but > it will give you an idea of what it sold for. > > http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=4545633 From hhacker at gte.net Sun Dec 6 11:32:43 1998 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: What's a Lisp Machine? Message-ID: <007a01be213e$6fc5de40$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> I spoke with Chuck Fry, an old friend who once worked for Symbolics, and he gave some additional information regarding the Lisp engines produced at Symbolics. The Macintosh SBC was called the MacIvory. He gave some specifics about which of these devices which a computer collector might want, and this information will come in a later posting. Still, he said that the company is still in business, having been bought out by some individual but, that it is apparently nothing more than a maintenance operation. Still, when I get the telephone number of this person (he has an AOL account, as I understand), I will call him and see if he is aware of the availability of some MacIvory's and what one might cost. Chuck noted that the MacIvory worked only for nubus Mac's and that it had a tendency to crash MacOS. He said that the TI product was more resilient in hardware than MacIvory but, the condition was just the reverse for software executed on the respective machines. That is, the TI did not crash so often but, the applications were not so well developed or capable. William R. Buckley From hhacker at gte.net Sun Dec 6 11:38:09 1998 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: ebay Altair Music Record Message-ID: <008601be213f$31a29f30$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> The item number was not recognised when I tried to visit. William R. Buckley >Oops, meant that to go private. Oh well, but at least it will give you >listmembers interested in computerized music an idea of what this stuff is >going for ... at least on ebay :). > >> http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=4545633 From ai705 at osfn.org Sun Dec 6 12:13:21 1998 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: Keyboards In-Reply-To: <199812060304.TAA20635@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, dave dameron wrote: > Fair Radio sales has (in their last cat.) 3 parallel keyboards for US$10, > "Cheap" because "the IBM PC standard killed the market for them". > They are at: www2.wcoil.com/~fairadio On a related note, wasn't there a electronics surplus dealer of some sort, perhaps based in Massachusetts, called "Meshna"? I'm wondering if someone knows whether they are still in business. Any web search turns up nothing. -- Stephen Dauphin From marvin at rain.org Sun Dec 6 12:57:59 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: ebay Altair Music Record References: <008601be213f$31a29f30$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Message-ID: <366AD3B7.A68CAE98@rain.org> Buck Savage wrote: > > The item number was not recognised when I tried to visit. Not sure what happened there. Apparently somewhere in between the cut and paste, the last number got dropped. This one hopefully will work okay. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=45456336 From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Dec 6 13:26:55 1998 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: RD54 on an RQDX3? Message-ID: <4.1.19981206123033.00aad420@206.231.8.2> Hi gang, I will buy an RD54 to replace that ornery RD53 on my MVII (recall we discussed the problem of the RD53 drive heads sticking a while back?) I just want to make sure that the RQDX3 EPROM versions on the controller will handle an RD54 drive. The version numbers are labeled as so: 285-E5 & 286-E5. I'm buying a spare RQDX3 controller board with these version numbers. The RQDX3 in the MVII have an older version # which I cannot recall at the moment. Already searched Sunsite and Tim's Micronotes. Nothing about the 285-E5 & 286-E5 numbers shows up. Back in October there was a ClassicCmp thread regarding handling of RX33 floppies. No comment about RD54's addressed. Thanks for the help. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Dec 6 13:45:47 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: RD54 on an RQDX3? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981206123033.00aad420@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: >I will buy an RD54 to replace that ornery RD53 on my MVII (recall we >discussed the problem of the RD53 drive heads sticking a while back?) You won't regret it, trust me. As far as I know, all revisions of the RQDX3 support the RD54, and it's mainly floppy drive support that changed. I'm sure someone will correct me though. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 6 12:14:26 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: OT HP vectra networking In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Dec 5, 98 10:52:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 628 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981206/dbf7f77c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 6 12:17:47 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: system info request In-Reply-To: <01be20d5$093a6f60$f8c962cf@devlaptop> from "Mike" at Dec 5, 98 11:58:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 476 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981206/623e923c/attachment.ksh From roblwill at usaor.net Sun Dec 6 16:57:46 1998 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: OT HP vectra networking Message-ID: <01be216b$d729a300$538ea6d1@the-general> Any idea where to get these any of these HIL devices? -- -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, December 06, 1998 11:59 AM Subject: Re: OT HP vectra networking > >It's probably an HP-HIL (Hewlett-Packard Human Interface Link IIRC) >connector. This was an HP interface used for keyboards, mice, >touchscreens, digitising tablets, security dongles, etc. You can >daisy-chain several devices off the same connector. > >-tony > > From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Dec 6 14:01:10 1998 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: Keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <199812060304.TAA20635@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19981206145255.00aa1100@206.231.8.2> At 13:13 12/06/98 -0500, you wrote: >On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, dave dameron wrote: > >> Fair Radio sales has (in their last cat.) 3 parallel keyboards for US$10, >> "Cheap" because "the IBM PC standard killed the market for them". >> They are at: www2.wcoil.com/~fairadio > >On a related note, wasn't there a electronics surplus dealer of some >sort, perhaps based in Massachusetts, called "Meshna"? I'm wondering if >someone knows whether they are still in business. Any web search turns >up nothing. Ooooh, yes! Please confirm this. Last I ordered from them was back in the early 80's. I got a bunch of military surplus radio pieces from them for my collection. Been thinking of tracking the company down recently. I remember clearly they often had drum memory units, PSU's and misc. computer bits. I was never into old computers until the past several years. I still have an old mid-80's catalog that I uncovered while moving earlier this year. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/ From rcini at msn.com Sun Dec 6 15:00:28 1998 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: Anyone have 1/83 Byte Mag? Message-ID: <000901be215c$287337e0$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Does anyone have the 1/83 issue of Byte Magazine? In it is part 3 of an article by Steve Ciarcia about the MPX-16 PC-compatible SBC. I have parts 1 and 2, so I need the third. Thanks! [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <================ reply separator =================> From dogas at leading.net Sun Dec 6 15:14:17 1998 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: system info request Message-ID: <01be215d$61eab740$ecc962cf@devlaptop> >> p.s. Anyone have the opcode listing for a 8048? > >There is a useful web site, >http://gruffle.comlab.ox.ac.uk/archive/cards.html That site was worth repeating for the benifit of this list... Thanks, Tony. - Mike: dogas@leading.net From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Dec 6 15:53:56 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: HP-HIL keyboards & mice (was Re: HP Vectra networking (26 days OT)) In-Reply-To: <199812060611.WAA25172@daemonweed.reanimators.org> (message from Frank McConnell on 05 Dec 1998 22:11:40 -0800) References: <01be20de$4e832a40$LocalHost@THEGENERAL> <199812060611.WAA25172@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <19981206215356.28206.qmail@brouhaha.com> Frank McConnell wrote: > Looks can be deceiving. That might be an HP-HIL connector -- does it Speaking of which, I need an HP-HIL mouse for use with my 16500A logic analyzer, and I'd also like to get an HP-HIL keyboard to try with it (I'm not sure it supports a keyboard). Anyone got extras? If so, let me know what you want for them. Thanks! Eric From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Dec 6 17:15:17 1998 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: Scanning Fiche Message-ID: While this might be considered more than a little off topic, I don't think so, since a lot of us have classic computer documentation in the form of MicroFiche. Does anyone know of a method of scanning this stuff into a computer, or any idea as to what resolution of a scanner such a project would require? I've thought a 35mm slide scanner would work well, but I don't believe they are constructed in such a manner that you could scan the fiche without destroying it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Dec 6 16:15:37 1998 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: Keyboards Message-ID: <19981206.163209.159.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Wow! WHat a blast from the past! I drooled over their catalog when I was a teenager . . . I haven't been able to locate them, either . . . Jeff On Sun, 6 Dec 1998 13:13:21 -0500 (EST) Stephen Dauphin writes: >On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, dave dameron wrote: > >> Fair Radio sales has (in their last cat.) 3 parallel keyboards for >US$10, >> "Cheap" because "the IBM PC standard killed the market for them". >> They are at: www2.wcoil.com/~fairadio > >On a related note, wasn't there a electronics surplus dealer of some >sort, perhaps based in Massachusetts, called "Meshna"? I'm wondering ^^^^^^ >if >someone knows whether they are still in business. Any web search turns > >up nothing. > > > -- Stephen Dauphin > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Dec 6 19:49:36 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: 8048 WAS Re: system info request In-Reply-To: References: <01be20d5$093a6f60$f8c962cf@devlaptop> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981206194936.38977bea@intellistar.net> At 06:17 PM 12/6/98 +0000, you wrote: >> p.s. Anyone have the opcode listing for a 8048? Why don't you go to the source? intel.com . I don't know if they have Op codes listed but they have all the technical info posted. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Dec 6 19:51:49 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: OT HP vectra networking In-Reply-To: <01be216b$d729a300$538ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981206195149.4837cb1a@intellistar.net> I have some HP HP-HIL keyboards and mice. IF you're sure that's what you need. If it uses HP-HIL, your machine should have one or two sockets with a single dot next to one and two dots next to the other. Joe At 02:57 PM 12/6/98 -0800, you wrote: >Any idea where to get these any of these HIL devices? > >-- > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Tony Duell >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Sunday, December 06, 1998 11:59 AM >Subject: Re: OT HP vectra networking >> >>It's probably an HP-HIL (Hewlett-Packard Human Interface Link IIRC) >>connector. This was an HP interface used for keyboards, mice, >>touchscreens, digitising tablets, security dongles, etc. You can >>daisy-chain several devices off the same connector. >> >>-tony >> >> > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Dec 6 19:53:06 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: HP-HIL keyboards & mice (was Re: HP Vectra networking (26 days OT)) In-Reply-To: <19981206215356.28206.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199812060611.WAA25172@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <01be20de$4e832a40$LocalHost@THEGENERAL> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981206195306.48276956@intellistar.net> Eric, Yes, I have a few extras. Joe At 09:53 PM 12/6/98 -0000, you wrote: >Frank McConnell wrote: >> Looks can be deceiving. That might be an HP-HIL connector -- does it > >Speaking of which, I need an HP-HIL mouse for use with my 16500A logic >analyzer, and I'd also like to get an HP-HIL keyboard to try with it (I'm >not sure it supports a keyboard). > >Anyone got extras? If so, let me know what you want for them. > >Thanks! >Eric > From ai705 at osfn.org Sun Dec 6 18:19:41 1998 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: Scanning Fiche In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Dec 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I've thought a 35mm slide scanner would work well, but I don't believe they > are constructed in such a manner that you could scan the fiche without > destroying it. I don't know the answer, but I have some thoughts. There are now flatbed scanners with a separate slide/picture scan "tray" that pops out the front like a CD tray. Whether it is large enough for the fiche, I can't say. Does that stuff come in standard sizes? There is also an Artec ScanRom 4E, a miniature tray scanner (parallel port & Windows) for stuff like 4" x 6" drugstore photos. DPI is your biggest problem. Neither of these solutions exceeds 600 or 800 dpi, while with dedicated 35mm scanners, that number is supposedly the high 1,000 to the middle 2,000 per inch. Are we talking jpegs/pdfs or ocr? How low a dpi can one go? Keeping in mind that everything aimed at consumers seems to reward routine scanning at excessive dpi, one could probably live with 200 dpi, if desperate, perhaps less. Assuming that the fiche corresponds to a standard sheet of paper, then it is possible that a true scanner resolution of 600 or 800 dpi will net 75 dpi for the finished product. Not so hot but might be workable. I could suggest optically blowing it up via a photgraphic enlarger and then scanning the enlargement, but there is still the problem of cutting to fit and the whole process would be time consuming. What about projecting it from the microfiche reader (either directly or using the screen) into something like a camcorder and then capturing as stills via a live feed? I assume there is a legitimate commercial way of scanning microfiche, but I suspect it requires a significant outlay of money. -- Stephen Dauphin From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Dec 6 17:57:48 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: Keyboards In-Reply-To: Stephen Dauphin's message of Sun, 6 Dec 1998 13:13:21 -0500 (EST) References: Message-ID: <199812062357.PAA28908@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Stephen Dauphin writes: > On a related note, wasn't there a electronics surplus dealer of some > sort, perhaps based in Massachusetts, called "Meshna"? I'm wondering if > someone knows whether they are still in business. Any web search turns > up nothing. Here's info from one of their 1988 catalogs: John J. Meshna Jr., Inc. 19 Allerton Street Lynn, MA 01904 Tel: (617) 595-2275 -Frank McConnell From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 6 18:14:28 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: 8048 WAS Re: system info request In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981206194936.38977bea@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Dec 6, 98 07:49:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 628 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981207/44866fd4/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Dec 6 19:15:18 1998 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: Scanning Fiche In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Neither of these solutions exceeds 600 or 800 dpi, while with dedicated >35mm scanners, that number is supposedly the high 1,000 to the middle >2,000 per inch. I believe the standard slide scanner resolution is about 2700dpi, while the averave flatbed scanner still doesn't seem to be much above 600dpi, and the ones with resolutions around 1200dpi are $2500-3000 while the slide scanners are only $1000-2000. Note, I'm talking optical resolution here, not interpolated. Interpolated is basically some software trickery, which would be useless in something like this. >Are we talking jpegs/pdfs or ocr? How low a dpi can one go? Keeping in I'd not really considered a file format, it wouldn't be JPEG though, as I don't like the format. >mind that everything aimed at consumers seems to reward routine scanning >at excessive dpi, one could probably live with 200 dpi, if desperate, A final output dpi of 150 to 200 would be fine, the problem is, a 8.5x11" piece of paper is REALLY small when it's on MicroFiche, so you'd need to scan it in at something like 2700dpi in order to get that. I just pulled a sheet out and stuck it in my scanner, each page is about a quarter inch square, and at 300dpi you can only read the section title pages. I'm not even sure 2700dpi would cut it. At 300dpi individual lines are pixels, if that good, I suspect it's actually several lines per pixel, but I don't have the fiche reader set up. A quick calculation shows that a quarter inch sqare scanned in at 2700dpi would only equal about 61-79dpi That's readable on screen, but it probably wouldn't be printable. Another reason not to use JPEG, when you've got that little detail, you can't afford to loose any! >perhaps less. Assuming that the fiche corresponds to a standard sheet of >paper, then it is possible that a true scanner resolution of 600 or 800 >dpi will net 75 dpi for the finished product. Not so hot but might be >workable. The sheet I was looking at has 208 pages on it, in a 13x16 grid, it's about 4x6" in size. >I could suggest optically blowing it up via a photgraphic enlarger and >then scanning the enlargement, but there is still the problem of cutting >to fit and the whole process would be time consuming. Ouch, that would be expensive, even doing my own developing, which I actually have the equipment to do. I doubt it would be possible to project the image directly onto the scanner. Hmmm.... >What about projecting it from the microfiche reader (either directly or >using the screen) into something like a camcorder and then capturing as >stills via a live feed? To great of a loss of detail, even with a high quality view, fiche isn't that easy to read. >I assume there is a legitimate commercial way of scanning microfiche, but >I suspect it requires a significant outlay of money. I think so, I looked into what it would cost to get a reader with a built in printer a couple months ago, turns out they cost about $5000.00, and most places charge at least twenty-five cents a per page for copies. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From wpe101 at banet.net Sun Dec 6 19:34:34 1998 From: wpe101 at banet.net (Will Emerson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: Scanning Fiche References: Message-ID: <366B30AA.7716C457@banet.net> Zane, Check out www.digest.net/bmw/archive/v2/msg00985.html It appears this person is doing, or trying to do a similar task, may be of some help (I hope!). Will "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > While this might be considered more than a little off topic, I don't think > so, since a lot of us have classic computer documentation in the form of > MicroFiche. Does anyone know of a method of scanning this stuff into a > computer, or any idea as to what resolution of a scanner such a project > would require? > > I've thought a 35mm slide scanner would work well, but I don't believe they > are constructed in such a manner that you could scan the fiche without > destroying it. > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ddameron at earthlink.net Sun Dec 6 19:49:54 1998 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: Keyboards Message-ID: <199812070149.RAA26493@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> At 01:13 PM 12/6/98 -0500, you wrote: >On a related note, wasn't there a electronics surplus dealer of some >sort, perhaps based in Massachusetts, called "Meshna"? I'm wondering if >someone knows whether they are still in business. Any web search turns >up nothing. > > > -- Stephen Dauphin Several years ago I looked for Meshna without luck. They had computer boards (transistor, TTL, etc and parts for a vector graphics terminal, Sanders IIRC. I think I had bought in the mid 70's a computer cassette deck, new in the box packed with foam cutouts from them. This has long vanished as well. I did find a similar company, B and F (Peabody, MA) thay still exists, www.BNFE.com. -Dave From mmcmanus at direct.ca Sun Dec 6 20:45:56 1998 From: mmcmanus at direct.ca (M McManus) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: Anyone have 1/83 Byte Mag? Message-ID: <001901be218b$b75f4f00$968d42d8@mmcmanus> -----Original Message----- From: Richard A. Cini, Jr. To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, December 06, 1998 1:11 PM Subject: Anyone have 1/83 Byte Mag? >Does anyone have the 1/83 issue of Byte Magazine? In it is part 3 of an >article by Steve Ciarcia about the MPX-16 PC-compatible SBC. I have parts 1 >and 2, so I need the third. > > Thanks! > >[ Rich Cini/WUGNET >[ ClubWin!/CW7 >[ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking >[ Collector of "classic" computers >[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ >[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ ><================ reply separator =================> The local library has Byte on micrfiche. If you live in the Vancouver Area, you can get a printout or just read it. It is at the Surrey library in Guilford. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Dec 6 21:18:09 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: ebay Altair Music Record In-Reply-To: <366AB731.28DDC9EA@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote: > Hi John, > > Saw this and I thought you would be interested. The bidding is closed, but > it will give you an idea of what it sold for. > > http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=4545633 The correct URL is: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=45456336 This is an incredible artifact. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 11/02/98] From bill_r at inetnebr.com Sun Dec 6 21:20:14 1998 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: Scanning Fiche In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <366d46ee.73473088@insight> We installed a document imaging system at my office about a year ago; it has a Kodak double-sided paper scanner and a fiche scanner. The fiche scanner (admittedly low-budget compared to the $50K+ fully-automated scanner) is called a "ScreenScan". It's basically a standard fiche reader with what looks like the guts of a flatbed scanner mounted across the front. You insert a sheet of fiche, position and focus the page you want, and hit the "scan" button. It scans a linear image sensor array like the one in a flatbed scanner down the screen from top to bottom, at pretty much standard flatbed scanning speed. I think it's set up to do 200 or 300dpi; not the world's sharpest images, but most of this stuff is just for backup records of stuff that happened 20 years ago, so it's not critical that it be pretty - just readable. I wouldn't be surprised if you could rig up something like this pretty easily yourself; pick up one of the fiche viewers that they can't give away at most university and government auctions, get a cheap flatbed scanner (even pretty good new ones can be had for under $100), take the mechanism out of the case, and bolt it to the front of the fiche viewer. You'd have to remove or disable the light source, since the bulb in the fiche viewer provides the illumination. I don't think you'd even have to mess with the focal length much; the fiche viewers normally do a rear-projection on frosted glass, and the scanner is set up to focus on a sheet of paper an inch or two away from the sensor, so with a spacer or two it should just work. That sounds like an interesting enough project that I might even build one if I had anything on fiche to scan. (I'm more interested in getting my 2,000-3,000 science fiction and computer books on CD-ROM, personally, but I have yet to come up with a non-destructive method that's reasonably fast. I could take them to work, use the hydraulic paper cutter in the print shop to cut the spines off all of them, and then jam them through the auto-feeder on the Kodak scanner, but I'd hate to. I've even gone as far as scanning all sides of a couple of books and using a 3D drawing program to make a rotatable, zoomable "virtual book" that I could put on a "virtual shelf" in a "virtual library" and use as an index to the scanned text, but there's still something about touching an actual paper book that I can't let go of...) On Sun, 6 Dec 1998 15:15:17 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: >While this might be considered more than a little off topic, I don't think >so, since a lot of us have classic computer documentation in the form of >MicroFiche. Does anyone know of a method of scanning this stuff into a >computer, or any idea as to what resolution of a scanner such a project >would require? -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Dec 6 23:34:09 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: FYI HP-HIL Re: OT HP vectra networking Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981206233409.4f879cec@intellistar.net> FYI >To: "Jason Willgruber" >From: Joe >Subject: HP-HIL Re: OT HP vectra networking >In-Reply-To: <01be219c$1fad04c0$bb8ea6d1@the-general> > >FYI > > >Jason, > >At 08:43 PM 12/6/98 -0800, you wrote: >>Hi! >> >>The connector on my Vectra has two dots on the 'cable' of the plug depicted >>above the connector. I"m assuming that this means I can connect two devices >>to the one connector? > > No, the two dots tells you which end of the HP_HIL cable to plug into that port. They have nothing to do with how many things you can connect to the port. The two ends of the cables are different electrically but the same physically. You have to be sure and match the number of dots on the socket with the number of dots on the plug that you plug into it. Most of the HIL devices have two ports, one that goes back to the computer (maybe through another device) and the second port lets you hang even more HIL devices on the chain. Within limits, you can hang as many HP-HIL devices as you like on the port. I think the only limitaion is the amount of power that the computer can supply to the devices. Generally that means about 9 devices. However, most people only put a keyboard and mouse on there. >> >>What would you want for a mouse (someone offered me a keyboard for the cost >>of shipping if he can get it)? Do I need any special drivers to the mouse, >>or is it automatically recognized? > > It's recognized automaticly but some software won't use it. For example, there's only one piece of software for the HP 150 Touch Screen II that will use the mouse. I expect the newer HP-UX software will make more use of it. > > Joe >> >>ThAnX, >>-- >> -Jason Willgruber From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Dec 6 23:42:49 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: Scanning Fiche In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981206234249.3027c516@intellistar.net> At 05:15 PM 12/6/98 -0800, you wrote: > >I think so, I looked into what it would cost to get a reader with a built >in printer a couple months ago, turns out they cost about $5000.00, and >most places charge at least twenty-five cents a per page for copies. Zane, I take my micro-fiche to the local public library. They keep back issues of news papers and magazines on micro-fiche so they have several readers there. I can view them for free and it only costs five cents per page to print them. Joe From adavie at mad.scientist.com Sun Dec 6 21:57:49 1998 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: Scanning Fiche Message-ID: <00c301be2195$c2a6af20$1901a8c0@titanic.bde.com.au> I guess I'm being a bit whimsical. But I was intrigued and impressed with the recent NASA super-resolution images, generated from the Pathfinder pictures. The basic gist of it, as far as I understand it, is that given an unchanging target (the fiche, for example), you can build up a much higher resolution image than your scanner is capable of simply by making multiple scans and processing them together. Each will be offset from the others by fractions of a pixel (assuming you move the fiche ;). Software to combine multiple lores images into a highres image would be fairly straightforward. I guess the more scans you do, the better resolution you can obtain. Yes, its tedious - but should work. A -----Original Message----- From: Bill Richman To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, December 07, 1998 2:38 PM Subject: Re: Scanning Fiche >We installed a document imaging system at my office about a year ago; it >has a Kodak double-sided paper scanner and a fiche scanner. The fiche >scanner (admittedly low-budget compared to the $50K+ fully-automated >scanner) is called a "ScreenScan". It's basically a standard fiche >reader with what looks like the guts of a flatbed scanner mounted across >the front. You insert a sheet of fiche, position and focus the page you >want, and hit the "scan" button. It scans a linear image sensor array >like the one in a flatbed scanner down the screen from top to bottom, at >pretty much standard flatbed scanning speed. I think it's set up to do >200 or 300dpi; not the world's sharpest images, but most of this stuff >is just for backup records of stuff that happened 20 years ago, so it's >not critical that it be pretty - just readable. I wouldn't be surprised >if you could rig up something like this pretty easily yourself; pick up >one of the fiche viewers that they can't give away at most university >and government auctions, get a cheap flatbed scanner (even pretty good >new ones can be had for under $100), take the mechanism out of the case, >and bolt it to the front of the fiche viewer. You'd have to remove or >disable the light source, since the bulb in the fiche viewer provides >the illumination. I don't think you'd even have to mess with the focal >length much; the fiche viewers normally do a rear-projection on frosted >glass, and the scanner is set up to focus on a sheet of paper an inch or >two away from the sensor, so with a spacer or two it should just work. >That sounds like an interesting enough project that I might even build >one if I had anything on fiche to scan. (I'm more interested in getting >my 2,000-3,000 science fiction and computer books on CD-ROM, personally, >but I have yet to come up with a non-destructive method that's >reasonably fast. I could take them to work, use the hydraulic paper >cutter in the print shop to cut the spines off all of them, and then jam >them through the auto-feeder on the Kodak scanner, but I'd hate to. >I've even gone as far as scanning all sides of a couple of books and >using a 3D drawing program to make a rotatable, zoomable "virtual book" >that I could put on a "virtual shelf" in a "virtual library" and use as >an index to the scanned text, but there's still something about touching >an actual paper book that I can't let go of...) > >On Sun, 6 Dec 1998 15:15:17 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>While this might be considered more than a little off topic, I don't think >>so, since a lot of us have classic computer documentation in the form of >>MicroFiche. Does anyone know of a method of scanning this stuff into a >>computer, or any idea as to what resolution of a scanner such a project >>would require? > > > -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) > http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer > Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. > > From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Dec 6 22:10:38 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: ebay Altair Music Record Message-ID: <199812070410.AA05237@world.std.com> < The correct URL is: < < http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=45456336 what the frap is it? peersonally if people post the item a short description of 25 words or less would be nice. Its a pain for me to crank up the winsock just to see what the silly thing is. < This is an incredible artifact. Then mine must be worth a bomb. then there are the two floppy roms (sheet disks with audio casette data on them).\ Allison From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sun Dec 6 22:19:23 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: ebay Altair Music Record In-Reply-To: <199812070410.AA05237@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Dec 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > what the frap is it? > > peersonally if people post the item a short description of 25 words or > less would be nice. Its a pain for me to crank up the winsock just to > see what the silly thing is. For the Winsock impaired: " Ok all you ALTAIR Computer collectors, I bet you don't have this! There can't be too many of these around. This is an Stereo LP recorded in 1978. It is titled BITS.AND.BYTES*(BACH, BINARY + BOOLEAN), COMPUTER MUSIC BY THREE HARDWARE VOICES, EVEN-TEMPERED SCALE PLUS TRUE SCALES, TWENTY-FIVE PARAMETERS PER NOTE FOR EACH VOICE. The main hardware used was an ALTAIR 8800A Computer (INTEL 8080 chip). The software was an MITS Package I Monitor, enhanced with JAMON (written by Jerry A. Ford, MITS Program #117752). The synthesizers consist of 3 identical voice circuits (pictured on the front of the album cover). Total playing time is 25 minutes. Music consists of two full length numbers with the remainder of the music being shorter selections using various voicings and tempos which were created to debug subroutines and as exploratory music. There are 15 selections total. Sounds like an early MOOG synthesizer. Album and record are in excellent condition. Album still has the shrinkwrap on it (although has been opened). Record has very little noise. Picture above is a spliced scan of the back cover. It looks dirty and ripped due to reflection from the shrinkwrap." > < This is an incredible artifact. > > Then mine must be worth a bomb. then there are the two floppy roms > (sheet disks with audio casette data on them).\ I have the issues of Interface Age with the floppy rom still in them :) And yes, I'm sure you'd get at least lunch and gas money if you listed those on ebay. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 11/02/98] From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Dec 6 22:49:06 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: Scanning Fiche In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981206234249.3027c516@intellistar.net> References: Message-ID: > I take my micro-fiche to the local public library. They keep back issues >of news papers and magazines on micro-fiche so they have several readers >there. I can view them for free and it only costs five cents per page to >print them. You're lucky! I think most of the libraries around here charge about fifty cents a page. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Dec 6 22:55:13 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: Scanning Fiche In-Reply-To: <366d46ee.73473088@insight> References: Message-ID: >not critical that it be pretty - just readable. I wouldn't be surprised >if you could rig up something like this pretty easily yourself; pick up >one of the fiche viewers that they can't give away at most university >and government auctions, get a cheap flatbed scanner (even pretty good >new ones can be had for under $100), take the mechanism out of the case, >and bolt it to the front of the fiche viewer. You'd have to remove or >disable the light source, since the bulb in the fiche viewer provides >the illumination. I don't think you'd even have to mess with the focal >length much; the fiche viewers normally do a rear-projection on frosted >glass, and the scanner is set up to focus on a sheet of paper an inch or >two away from the sensor, so with a spacer or two it should just work. >That sounds like an interesting enough project that I might even build >one if I had anything on fiche to scan. (I'm more interested in getting Hmmm, I think I'll be keeping my eyes open for some stuff when I'm out junking, this sounds a little bit interesting. If it wasn't for the transparancy adapter on my current scanner, which I've got for antique 3-D glass slides, I'd consider using that scanner, and replacing it with a newer one. One advantage of building a setup like this, is you wouldn't care about colour quality, just sharpness, and could buy the scanner accordingly, probably saving a little (one can dream, right). I just might know where I can get a semi-decent fiche reader for this. Hmmm..... Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From red at bears.org Sun Dec 6 22:57:06 1998 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: Scanning Fiche In-Reply-To: <00c301be2195$c2a6af20$1901a8c0@titanic.bde.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Andrew Davie wrote: > I guess the more scans you do, the better resolution you can obtain. Yes, > its tedious - but should work. It works. I wrote software a year or so ago to improve the quality of images captured from an NTSC source (like from a video camera). It works this way, and is best for neutralizing colour artifacts, although it also improves the general picture quality a fair amount in doing so. Basically for a still, live source, you can oversample a video "frame" a number of times and since the colour artifacting is essentially random, by compositing them you can eventually get an output image that converges to clean. I did this so to facilitate photographic inventorying of my collection. I didn't relish the thought of developing and scanning hundreds of photographs. Currently it only works for SGI-format .rgb images, as this is what is produced by the tools I use. If somebody else thinks this could actually be a wortwhile piece of software I could be persuaded to extend it to work on .tiff or other image formats and distribute it. My big problem is it makes the optical flaws in the lens and CCD of my Hi8 camera all too apparent. (: ok r. From marvin at rain.org Sun Dec 6 23:17:40 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:57 2005 Subject: ebay Altair Music Record References: <199812070410.AA05237@world.std.com> Message-ID: <366B64F4.BDA9E8F@rain.org> Allison J Parent wrote: > > < The correct URL is: > < > < http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=45456336 > > what the frap is it? Well, considering that message was actually *intended* to be a private message to John :). Apparently it is a vinyl type record with recordings of music made on the Altair computer. It closed somewhere around $130 which I thought was impressive. > > peersonally if people post the item a short description of 25 words or > less would be nice. Its a pain for me to crank up the winsock just to > see what the silly thing is. > > < This is an incredible artifact. > > Then mine must be worth a bomb. then there are the two floppy roms > (sheet disks with audio casette data on them).\ > > Allison From Innfogra at aol.com Sun Dec 6 23:41:54 1998 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: Scanning Fiche Message-ID: <86630f41.366b6aa2@aol.com> Zane; I just got in the whse two reader printers (dry toner) that print on plain paper. I buy and sell microfilm equipment also. If you wanted to rig a parts scanner to a Microfilm reader I have both parts too. However I would recommend a service bureau that could turn the Microfilm into CDs. You should get high quality documents that way. This should not be too expensive, particularly if you have a lot of pages. Archiving technology has pretty much moved to CDs. Service companies that used to film documents nowadays image documents to CDs. I have one of these companies interested in purchasing one of the reader printers I got in. I expect to be talking with him tomorrow. I will ask about getting MF data into the computer, costs and turnaround. Paxton From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Dec 7 01:42:25 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: Scanning Fiche In-Reply-To: (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: Message-ID: <19981207074225.31200.qmail@brouhaha.com> > >Are we talking jpegs/pdfs or ocr? How low a dpi can one go? Keeping in > > I'd not really considered a file format, it wouldn't be JPEG though, as I > don't like the format. JPEG is only good for continuous-tone images such as photographs. It does horrible things to text and line art, since that's not what it was designed for. For typical manuals (lots of text and line art, few photographs), GIF is (barely) tolerable, but doesn't really compress that well. ITU-T Group 4 fax format (rec T.6) compresses quite well (file sizes typically less than half of equivalent GIF), and can be encapsulated in either TIFF Class F or PDF files. JBIG is even better for this stuff, getting file sizes 10 to 20 percent smaller than G4 fax, but viewers are relatively uncommon. I generally use PDF. Although a few whiners claim otherwise, it appears to me that PDF viewers are now available on almost all contemporary platforms. Most systems that don't run Acrobat Viewer can run Ghostscript and Ghostview or xpdf. I've put PDF files of some old DECsystem-10 manuals on http://www.36bit.org/ I scanned the pages under Linux, then used the capture module of Adobe Acrobat Exchange 3.01 under Windows 95(*) to convert the TIFF files into a PDF. In the process it OCR'd the files, and the result is stored as "invisible" text in the PDF file. That makes it possible to search the file, even though it displays as a scanned image. The OCR wasn't good enough to allow for archiving the documents as text only; it would take far too much time to clean them up. Cheers, Eric * I hope Adobe releases the full Acrobat Exchange for Linux; I'd gladly buy it again. They have a Solaris version, so a Linux port should be trivial. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Dec 7 01:47:11 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: Scanning Fiche In-Reply-To: <19981207074225.31200.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Dec 07, 1998 07:42:25 AM Message-ID: <199812070747.AAA01364@calico.litterbox.com> *snip* > I generally use PDF. Although a few whiners claim otherwise, it appears > to me that PDF viewers are now available on almost all contemporary > platforms. Most systems that don't run Acrobat Viewer can run Ghostscript > and Ghostview or xpdf. *snip* does anyone know whether adobe has documented the PDF format? the first person to write an apple2GS version is going to win friends and influence people, IMHO. :) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Dec 7 08:09:11 1998 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: Scanning Fiche In-Reply-To: <86630f41.366b6aa2@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981207080911.307f9d58@intellistar.net> Paxton, I'd like to know what it costs also. I expect micro-fiche machines will get harder and harder to find and more expense. Joe At 12:41 AM 12/7/98 EST, you wrote: >Zane; > >I just got in the whse two reader printers (dry toner) that print on plain >paper. I buy and sell microfilm equipment also. If you wanted to rig a parts >scanner to a Microfilm reader I have both parts too. > >However I would recommend a service bureau that could turn the Microfilm into >CDs. You should get high quality documents that way. This should not be too >expensive, particularly if you have a lot of pages. Archiving technology has >pretty much moved to CDs. Service companies that used to film documents >nowadays image documents to CDs. I have one of these companies interested in >purchasing one of the reader printers I got in. I expect to be talking with >him tomorrow. I will ask about getting MF data into the computer, costs and >turnaround. > >Paxton > From brett at xnet.com Mon Dec 7 07:01:01 1998 From: brett at xnet.com (Brett Crapser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: Scanning Fiche In-Reply-To: <199812070747.AAA01364@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Jim Strickland wrote: > does anyone know whether adobe has documented the PDF format? Yup - it's on the web site. And it's is in - PDF! (Wow! 8-) Kinda circular don't ya think? BC From erd at infinet.com Mon Dec 7 08:57:45 1998 From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: Replacing 6550s In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Dec 6, 98 09:45:51 am Message-ID: <199812071457.JAA24098@user2.infinet.com> > > > > On Mon, 30 Nov 1998 Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > Where would you put ROM expansion? There's no empty sockets in this model > PET. For the few products that existed back then, the vendors supplied a sidecar cartridge/board. It had a lead to go around the back of the PET to the 2nd cassette port. I have a crude line drawing in the manual of one of my PET products, somewhere. My first PET was a 32K, 9" white, upgrade ROM (3.0), so I stuffed the firmware in the available sockets. -ethan From bill at chipware.com Mon Dec 7 09:10:59 1998 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: IBM 5161 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301be21f3$cc2b1e60$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > I haven't seen one of these in a *long* time. They were rare even back > when the PC was king. Somebody closer to VA should go for it: Yup, they were rare because the cable is a bear. It constantly came apart at the connector. I have one, including the black felt covered foam pad so it can sit on top of (or under) the pc without rattling too much. From bill at chipware.com Mon Dec 7 09:31:04 1998 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: old(ish) computers for sale In-Reply-To: <366A9D06.8D984213@cnct.com> Message-ID: <000401be21f6$9a3ea220$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > Some people have all the luck -- I've never seen (or heard) a > noise-emitting diode. Lots of smoke-emitting diodes and > light-emitting resistors in the past, however. And of course the > occasional glop-emitting capacitor. Take a 3.5 volt top hat LED. Spread the leads to the proper width and apply (I would recommend using a pair of pliers) to a fresh 9 volt transistor radio battery. I got shards of red plastic embedded in my fingers that way once. From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com Mon Dec 7 09:54:12 1998 From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: ebay Altair Music Record Message-ID: >The main hardware used was an ALTAIR 8800A Computer >(INTEL 8080 chip). The software was an MITS Package >I Monitor, enhanced with JAMON (written by Jerry A. Ford, >MITS Program #117752). The synthesizers consist of 3 >identical voice circuits (pictured on the front of the >album cover). This is an Altair controlled hardware synth I take it? Now *MY* Altair Synth (pardon the ego!) was all done in software, with a simple 8-bit d/a converter on an i/o port. It used 256 bytes of a waveform (fundamental sin(x) plus some harmonics) that were stepped thru by up to 4 pointers at various rates and added up to get 4 part harmony. Took a lot of instruction cycle counting to get the timing just right and was worked up to where one could, with a lot of tedious data entry, type in a Bach invention (#8 - was on 'Switched on Bach') and have it play perfectly. Now, being a 2Mhz machine it sang bass and tenor mostly. Spent many a long night getting one together for a school software contest and the prof. gave the prize to a lousy serial auto-baud detector (probably because HE suggested it). So we learned that demo's need BIG speakers to make an impression :)) A# = (12th root of 2) * 440Hz B = " * A# Chuck cswiger@widomaker.com From gram at cnct.com Mon Dec 7 11:31:17 1998 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: old(ish) computers for sale References: <000401be21f6$9a3ea220$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <366C10E5.52B58BB0@cnct.com> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > Some people have all the luck -- I've never seen (or heard) a > > noise-emitting diode. Lots of smoke-emitting diodes and > > light-emitting resistors in the past, however. And of course the > > occasional glop-emitting capacitor. > > Take a 3.5 volt top hat LED. Spread the leads to the proper > width and apply (I would recommend using a pair of pliers) > to a fresh 9 volt transistor radio battery. I got shards of > red plastic embedded in my fingers that way once. Ah, a shrapnel-emitting diode. Safety glasses and gloves would seem to be recommended. -- Ward Griffiths WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Dec 7 11:42:57 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: old(ish) computers for sale In-Reply-To: <366C10E5.52B58BB0@cnct.com> Message-ID: <13409907680.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [shrapnel-emitting diode] What about the Heat Emitting IC? Oh, and I've heard a Noise Emitting CRT - Some moron dropped a monitor on it's back and neatly cracked the CRT neck (and thus shorted all the pins together) and didn't tell anyone about it. Teacher turns it on and it makes smoke and loud disturbing-type noises. So, she calls me in to go fix it. I take monitor back to workshop, open back of it, (Yes, I know how dangerous this is, I just wanted to see what was making that noise.), then shoved the power cord into a powerstrip with a breaker on it, stood a good 3 feet away and let it have juice. I then stared in horror at the light show. We let it sit for about 2 hours, then brought the teacher in to see it. She sez, "Oh, well, can you fix it?" There's also the gum-emitting belt (I got to clean one of these out of an NCR 260 terminal yesterday) and the crap-emitting battery (Seen on our 286es and an increasing number of 386es), and the sound-emitting transformer. ------- From hansp at digiweb.com Sat Dec 5 00:47:37 1998 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: OT video jokes was DG Aviion video References: Message-ID: <3668D709.4FF89996@digiweb.com> Tony Duell wrote: > The VGA-colour-swapper is another. This is a simple adapter with a DE15 > plug on one side and a DE15 socket on the other. All the pins are > straight through, apart from 1,2,3 which are wired 1->2, 2->3, 3->1. The > result is that it swaps the colours round. It's actually a useful piece > of test gear to discover quickly if a missing colour is due to the > monitor or video card. But it's the sort of thing to plug into a luser's > computer after he's spent the morning getting the colours 'right'... Reminds me of the story of the final tests being done for NTSC certification in the States (at RCA 1940's?). Apparently all was going vey well and the final tests involved a bowl of fruit. Some joker painted the banana blue causing much frustration on the part of the technicians. _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Dec 7 13:31:49 1998 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: Whose is that program to spawn that *.xls files? In-Reply-To: <3668AF7D.258EF998@cnct.com> Message-ID: <199812071832.SAA06766@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > > And, no, I don't know where he downloaded it from..... > StarOffice is a commercial product, though Caldera provides a demo > copy with their Linux distribution, and the demo can be downloaded > from Caldera and other sites. It doesn't seem to read the latest > Excel and Word formats, Microsoft keeps "upgrading" the file format > with each release (not that I see any features added) but of course > keeping the same extension on the filenames. It's prety up to date and the best of all: IT IS FREE (for personal use). Since one month ago, not only the Linux but also the WinDOOFs and OS/2 and Solaris versions are free for personal use - The software is available for download on several sites - or you order a 79 Mark (~50 USD) package direkt from them (here you get a manual, some additional fonts and clip arts and 30 days of installation support). Most of it's revenue, Stardivision generates from compaies and professional users, and the part is dramaticly increasing. so they just decided that it's better to focus the sales to professionals. But instead of droping private/home users they rather offer their package for free - the idea is to give a good product and charge only for service if needed - think of all the Linux distributions from Suse to Red Hat - same idea ... In fact, at Home I switched to StarOffice - it#s compatible enough to cooperate with MS Word & Co but runs also under OS/2 and Linux. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From hansp at digiweb.com Mon Dec 7 12:49:06 1998 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: HP Vectra networking (26 days OT) References: <01be20de$4e832a40$LocalHost@THEGENERAL> <199812060611.WAA25172@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <366C2322.9304FC61@digiweb.com> Frank McConnell wrote: > > "Jason Willgruber" writes: > > -Networking software compatible with the internal networking card (there"s a > > plug next to the keyboard connector that looks like it wants to be connected > > to some sort of network hub). > > Looks can be deceiving. That might be an HP-HIL connector -- does it > have a picture of the corresponding plug with one or two dots on the > cable, or maybe just the one or two dots? If so, it's HIL, and is > there so you can hook up a Vectra HIL keyboard (as shipped with the > real original Vectras that don't have alphabet soup after the word > "Vectra") or an HIL mouse or an HIL monitor w/touchscreen. That all sounds plausible, but I do not think that HP Vectras ever used the HIL standard. When I get back to Grenoble (where the Vectras were designed) next week I will root around and see what I can dig up on this machine. Regards _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From hansp at digiweb.com Mon Dec 7 12:51:34 1998 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: OT HP vectra networking References: Message-ID: <366C23B6.B9489D1E@digiweb.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > On Sat, 5 Dec 1998 roblwill@usaor.net wrote: > > > -Networking software compatible with the internal networking card (there"s a > > > plug next to the keyboard connector that looks like it wants to be connected > > > to some sort of network hub). > > > > As far as I am aware, that's a weirdo keyboard connector. There's a > > matching one in the monitor and the keyboard. > > It's probably an HP-HIL (Hewlett-Packard Human Interface Link IIRC) > connector. This was an HP interface used for keyboards, mice, > touchscreens, digitising tablets, security dongles, etc. You can > daisy-chain several devices off the same connector. Hmm, sounds like USB, things don't change do they ;-) _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Dec 7 13:02:26 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: OT HP vectra networking In-Reply-To: <366C23B6.B9489D1E@digiweb.com> from "Hans B Pufal" at Dec 7, 98 07:51:34 pm Message-ID: <199812071902.LAA10916@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 771 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981207/56653ed3/attachment.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Dec 7 14:04:14 1998 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: Scanning Fiche In-Reply-To: References: <366d46ee.73473088@insight> Message-ID: <199812071905.TAA09357@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> >not critical that it be pretty - just readable. I wouldn't be surprised >if you could rig up something like this pretty easily yourself; pick up >one of the fiche viewers that they can't give away at most university >and government auctions, get a cheap flatbed scanner (even pretty good >new ones can be had for under $100), take the mechanism out of the case, >and bolt it to the front of the fiche viewer. You'd have to remove or >disable the light source, since the bulb in the fiche viewer provides >the illumination. I don't think you'd even have to mess with the focal >length much; the fiche viewers normally do a rear-projection on frosted >glass, and the scanner is set up to focus on a sheet of paper an inch or >two away from the sensor, so with a spacer or two it should just work. >That sounds like an interesting enough project that I might even build >one if I had anything on fiche to scan. (I'm more interested in getting You could do it even without changing the scanner at all. take two mirrors and build a 'hat' for the fiche - the light will pass the fice at one side, get reflected by the mirrors and be passed back, now thru the fiche. This works quite will since in most scanners the light runs some one or two cm in front of the scannerline. Of course the 'hat' has to be adjusted to this angle. It works quite well for pictures, but for a fiche you might need a _real_ high resolution scanner. If the fiche document is made from ordinary 'typewriter' papers or drawings (like most of my 1960s/70s mainframe fiches) the resolution should be better than 1200 dpi to get an idea of the text. If small parts are to be viewed, >3000 is needed. One advantage of fiches is still the _real_ high resolution :) Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From sieler at allegro.com Mon Dec 7 13:08:34 1998 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: VAX 11/780 memory diagnostic floppy Message-ID: <199812071908.LAA26029@bart.allegro.com> Hi, Ebay item #47353951 is two 8" floppies. If you look closely at one of them in the picture, it appears to be a diagnostic floppy. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=47353951 I emailed the seller, and he said: > That floppy has a label that reads: "EMC CORPORATION, MEMORY > DIAGNOSTICS, FOR VAX 11/780 AND 11/785, 053-240-001 REV A" > > Hard to say what might be on the other floppy, it looks like the label > that had been adhered has popped off long ago. > > We've long since decommissioned all our 780s and 785s, and a month or so > ago we were doing a "cleanup" of the shelves in the back room, and I > picked up a few "nostalgic" items like these floppies, but my wife has > said there's no room left for computer collectibles. > > If you could actually use the software, that would be great! I'm not interested in it, but I thought someone here might be. -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com http://www.allegro.com/sieler.html From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Dec 7 13:28:26 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: On topic: Serious static problem References: Message-ID: <366C2C59.C002958@bigfoot.com> Don Maslin wrote: > On Sat, 5 Dec 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > > > Yes, throwing sparks does sort of defeat the purpose. Never saw one > > do that, admittedly the only place I ever paid attention was the > > flight-line back when I did airplanes for a living. > > Not really, since the primary purpose is to drain any static charge prior > to rigging out the tank filler hose and having a spark at the tank filler > pipe. > That's the purpose of the ground reel connected to the tie down/ground point in the ramp, prior to hooking up the aircraft to the truck. It drains both and puts them both (truck and plane) on the same potential. When you're talking about JP4 through JP10 fuels then you are talking about a much bigger mess with a spark than just touching an S100 machine while in the minivan - the ultimate screwup actually. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Dec 7 13:32:48 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: OT HP vectra networking In-Reply-To: <199812071902.LAA10916@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::> It's probably an HP-HIL (Hewlett-Packard Human Interface Link IIRC) > ::> connector. This was an HP interface used for keyboards, mice, > ::> touchscreens, digitising tablets, security dongles, etc. You can > ::> daisy-chain several devices off the same connector. > :: > ::Hmm, sounds like USB, things don't change do they ;-) > > What about the Commodore serial bus? :-) I got another Atari 800 over the weekend and decided to hook it up to play Fort Apocalypse which I got in a batch of disks with the computer (I've been wanting to play that damn game since the eighth grade but never got a chance because all the other kids were computer hogs). I was struck at how simple it was to hook everything up. Plug power into computer. Plus power into disk drive. Plug cable between disk drive and computer. Stick disk in drive and turn power on. Instant boot. USB? Pfeh! Everything new in the computer realm was invented long ago. Engineers just re-discover good designs. Heck, the mouse turns 30 this week! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/07/98] From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Dec 7 13:32:16 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 References: <981123112426.2a2002ef@trailing-edge.com> <365996DB.A7BDA86C@rain.org> <366629f7.50319838@smtp.site1.csi.com> <3666F737.3D1FEB35@bigfoot.com> <366a5c90.2890285@smtp.site1.csi.com> <366A0179.4796CBD2@bigfoot.com> <366c1963.51236353@smtp.site1.csi.com> Message-ID: <366C2D3E.9D9CB8FA@bigfoot.com> Did you try Com1, Com2, Com3, Com4? There is a serial port int he machine as well and you may accidentally set them both to the same port as well. Take a deep breath and look back over the config info with the setup disk. You may also have a DOA modem, that's a slight chance. Richard A. Hall wrote: > No go Russ, I tried the ATA both from Dos and from Procomm Plus. I also tries > "+++" to no avail. Any other Ideas? > > On Sat, 05 Dec 1998 22:00:58 -0600, you wrote: > > >You may try sending the string ECHO ATA >COMx (x is the comport number) at the > >DOS prompt to see if it wakes up and makes a hellacious scream (that will quit in > >a few seconds). If so then the modem will stay asleep until an intialization > >string is sent to it. > > From donm at cts.com Mon Dec 7 13:40:36 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: OT: Re: On topic: Serious static problem In-Reply-To: <366C2C59.C002958@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > That's the purpose of the ground reel connected to the tie down/ground point in > the ramp, prior to hooking up the aircraft to the truck. It drains both and puts > them both (truck and plane) on the same potential. When you're talking about JP4 > through JP10 fuels then you are talking about a much bigger mess with a spark > than just touching an S100 machine while in the minivan - the ultimate screwup > actually. Well, certainly vastly worse than the S100 machine problem. But in the cosmic order of things, JPxx is pretty safe stuff compared to 100 Octane AvGas with all the aromatics they used to put in that stuff for easy winter starting! - don From hhacker at gte.net Mon Dec 7 13:49:12 1998 From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: old(ish) computers for sale Message-ID: <02e601be221a$aaa819b0$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net> Come on you guys! This is now something emitting something, ad nauseum. I must admit, though, that I liked the concept of the shrapnel-emitting diode. I, too, have seen some of these! William R. Buckley From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Dec 7 13:53:56 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: Linux Q's Message-ID: <366C3253.3C30499D@bigfoot.com> Just to refresh my memory on Linux since I'm just now getting into looking at it, just exactly what machines work well with it, and with what versions/vareities for each? I have tons of machines from IBM 5170 AT's, PS/2's of all sorts, other 286 and 386 machines, etc and I'm looking at possibly selling off the useful ones that will use Linux as cheap as I can to get some room to walk around here. Any suggestions greatly appreciated. From pechter at monmouth.com Mon Dec 7 14:05:29 1998 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: Linux Q's In-Reply-To: <366C3253.3C30499D@bigfoot.com> from Russ Blakeman at "Dec 7, 98 01:53:56 pm" Message-ID: <199812072005.PAA00722@monmouth.com> > Just to refresh my memory on Linux since I'm just now getting into > looking at it, just exactly what machines work well with it, and with > what versions/vareities for each? I have tons of machines from IBM 5170 > AT's, PS/2's of all sorts, other 286 and 386 machines, etc and I'm > looking at possibly selling off the useful ones that will use Linux as > cheap as I can to get some room to walk around here. > > Any suggestions greatly appreciated. > > > The easiest stuff to get Linux up on are standard AT or PCI bus 386(minimum) or higher machines. Microchanel can be done. (I did a PS/2 model 80 and 8590 at IBM -- but they required mixing just the right hardware pieces). My clone 386SX/25 ran Linux (SLS 0.99.13 through Slackware -->1.2) with no problems. FreeBSD also worked with all the non-microchanel stuff. Bill From kmar at lle.rochester.edu Mon Dec 7 14:09:03 1998 From: kmar at lle.rochester.edu (Ken Marshall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: HP Vectra networking (26 days OT) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19981207150903.0094c260@popserver.lle.rochester.edu> At 07:49 PM 12/7/98 +0100, you wrote: >Frank McConnell wrote: >> >> "Jason Willgruber" writes: >> > -Networking software compatible with the internal networking card (there"s a >> > plug next to the keyboard connector that looks like it wants to be connected >> > to some sort of network hub). >> >> Looks can be deceiving. That might be an HP-HIL connector -- does it >> have a picture of the corresponding plug with one or two dots on the >> cable, or maybe just the one or two dots? If so, it's HIL, and is >> there so you can hook up a Vectra HIL keyboard (as shipped with the >> real original Vectras that don't have alphabet soup after the word >> "Vectra") or an HIL mouse or an HIL monitor w/touchscreen. > >That all sounds plausible, but I do not think that HP Vectras ever used >the HIL standard. When I get back to Grenoble (where the Vectras were >designed) next week I will root around and see what I can dig up on this >machine. > >Regards > >_---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- >Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue > > I have had several older HP vectras here that have had HP-HPIL interfaces, including an HP Vectra CS (8086) and a Vectra RS-20 (386). The HP-HPIL interface was generally supplied as an 8-bit card that plugged directly into the ISA bus. Regards, Kenneth L. Marshall Research Engineer, Optical Materials Laboratory for Laser Energetics University of Rochester 250 East River Road Rochester, NY 14623 Phone:(716)-275-8247 Fax: (716)-275-5960 From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Dec 7 14:07:58 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: WHOOPEE! Message-ID: <13409934080.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> THIS IS INTERESTING. IM ON FROOM A PRINTING TERMINAL. NO LOWERCASE LETTERS, 00 BAUD AND AN ACCOUSTIC COUPLER. FUN FUNFUN . ------- From yowza at yowza.com Mon Dec 7 14:07:36 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: Meeses (was Re: OT HP vectra networking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > Everything new in the computer realm was invented long ago. Engineers > just re-discover good designs. Heck, the mouse turns 30 this week! Am I the only one who has never had enough space on my desk for a mouse? (I hate meeses to pieces.) I've used the IBM trackpoint pretty much exclusively ever since they came out with it. I've had mice on the brain recently: What was the first PC mouse, and how was it used? I think it was Mouse Systems PC Mouse used with PC Paint in 1982, even before the Apple Lisa hit the streets. What was the first microcomputer mouse? I think it might be the same as above, but microprocessor-based workstations like the Sun-1 might be earlier. The first pointing device? I'm pretty sure it was the light pen used with the SAGE in the 1950's. How about an exhaustive (?) list of pointing devices? Light pen, touch screen, track ball, touch pad, keyboard, pen + digitizer, mouse pen, trackpoint (eraser head), knee pointer, eye tracker, head tracker, ring mouse, isopoint (tootsie roll), space ball (3-d trackball), joystick, power glove, steering wheel. More? -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Mon Dec 7 14:13:09 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: Linux Q's In-Reply-To: <366C3253.3C30499D@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: Just about any 386+ box with 4+MB RAM will do, but I haven't tried MCA boxes, so I'm not possitve about those. For anything less, try Minix or ELKS. -- Doug On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Just to refresh my memory on Linux since I'm just now getting into > looking at it, just exactly what machines work well with it, and with > what versions/vareities for each? I have tons of machines from IBM 5170 > AT's, PS/2's of all sorts, other 286 and 386 machines, etc and I'm > looking at possibly selling off the useful ones that will use Linux as > cheap as I can to get some room to walk around here. > > Any suggestions greatly appreciated. > From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com Mon Dec 7 14:15:05 1998 From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: Linux Q's In-Reply-To: <366C3253.3C30499D@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Just to refresh my memory on Linux since I'm just now getting into > looking at it, just exactly what machines work well with it, and with > what versions/vareities for each? I have tons of machines from IBM 5170 > AT's, PS/2's of all sorts, other 286 and 386 machines, etc and I'm > looking at possibly selling off the useful ones that will use Linux as > cheap as I can to get some room to walk around here. > > Any suggestions greatly appreciated. > Look over www.linux.org, some good info there. Many of these machines are only supported by special ports of Linux (like MCA ps/2's) and they may not run the most current packages by RedHat/Debian/Slackware/etc. Certainly XWindows support will be lacking on anything less than a 386. RAM is also a major concern. Linux is *comparatively* fast; remember that it is more complete and robust than WinNT/95/98, but you still need the hardware to run it. One thing you might consider is putting Minix on some of those older, slow machines and trying to market them as research curiosities to CS students. It should work fine on a 286 with >40meg HD... Cheers, Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Dec 7 14:35:43 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: PDF format (was Re: Scanning Fiche) In-Reply-To: <199812070747.AAA01364@calico.litterbox.com> (message from Jim Strickland on Mon, 7 Dec 1998 00:47:11 -0700 (MST)) References: <199812070747.AAA01364@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <19981207203543.1853.qmail@brouhaha.com> > does anyone know whether adobe has documented the PDF format? Yes. In addition to a published book (which documents 1.0 or 1.1, I don't recall), the up-to-date PDF spec is available (in PDF format, of course) on Adobe's web site. > the first > person to write an apple2GS version is going to win friends and influence > people, IMHO. :) It should be possible to port Ghostscript to the IIgs. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Dec 7 14:34:40 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: Linux Q's References: <199812072005.PAA00722@monmouth.com> Message-ID: <366C3BDF.5F1E4C3C@bigfoot.com> Bill Pechter wrote: > > Just to refresh my memory on Linux since I'm just now getting into > > looking at it, just exactly what machines work well with it, and with > > what versions/vareities for each? I have tons of machines from IBM 5170 > > AT's, PS/2's of all sorts, other 286 and 386 machines, etc and I'm > > looking at possibly selling off the useful ones that will use Linux as > > cheap as I can to get some room to walk around here. > > > > Any suggestions greatly appreciated. > > > > > > > > The easiest stuff to get Linux up on are standard AT or PCI bus > 386(minimum) or higher machines. Microchanel can be done. > (I did a PS/2 model 80 and 8590 at IBM -- but they required mixing > just the right hardware pieces). > > My clone 386SX/25 ran Linux (SLS 0.99.13 through Slackware -->1.2) with > no problems. FreeBSD also worked with all the non-microchanel stuff. > > Bill Thanks Bill. I guess the 5 units I have that also show a Unix jumper on the motherboard should be very useful machines for this purpose. Now you have me wanting to try one of the dozen PS/2 80's I have for a linux box. From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Dec 7 14:35:33 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: WHOOPEE! In-Reply-To: <13409934080.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Dec 7, 98 12:07:58 pm Message-ID: <199812072035.MAA30883@saul10.u.washington.edu> > THIS IS INTERESTING. IM ON FROOM A PRINTING TERMINAL. > NO LOWERCASE LETTERS, 00 BAUD AND AN ACCOUSTIC COUPLER. > FUN FUNFUN WHAT, NO APOSTROPHE? ON SOME OLDER UNIX SYSTEMS, IF YOU LOG IN USING AN ALL-CAPS NAME, THEY GO INTO "PRINTING TERMINAL" MODE. (WHEN THEY ASK FOR YOUR PASSWORD, THEY HAVE ALREADY SWITCHED MODES.) THEN, LETTERS WILL BE ENTERED IN LOWERCASE EXCEPT WHEN PRECEEDED BY A BACKSLASH. THERE MAY BE A SIMILAR TECHNIQUE ON YOUR (DEC?) SYSTEM. NOTE THAT ALL "ACTUAL" BACKSLASHES (THOSE SENT TO THE APPLICATION, RATHER THAN BEING PROCESSED BY THE TERMINAL DRIVER) MUST BE DOUBLED. WARNING -- MANY NEWER UNIX SYSTEMS APPEAR TO SUPPORT THIS MODE BUT ACTUALLY DON'T (BACKSLASHES WON'T WORK). TRY WITH A REGULAR TERMINAL FIRST. TELL US IF YOUR TERMINAL WILL RECEIVE LOWERCASE LETTERS EVEN THOUGH IT WON'T SEND THEM -- because writing in all caps makes my eyes hurt. (THE END OF THE LAST SENTENCE WAS IN LOWERCASE). -- DEREK From hydros_by_hall at csi.com Mon Dec 7 14:35:15 1998 From: hydros_by_hall at csi.com (Richard A. Hall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 In-Reply-To: <366C2D3E.9D9CB8FA@bigfoot.com> References: <981123112426.2a2002ef@trailing-edge.com> <365996DB.A7BDA86C@rain.org> <366629f7.50319838@smtp.site1.csi.com> <3666F737.3D1FEB35@bigfoot.com> <366a5c90.2890285@smtp.site1.csi.com> <366A0179.4796CBD2@bigfoot.com> <366c1963.51236353@smtp.site1.csi.com> <366C2D3E.9D9CB8FA@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <366f3976.12766317@smtp.site1.csi.com> Russ, I verified, using the diagnostics on the setup disk, that the modem is on com 2 and irq 3. The modem works flawlessly if I use setup to cause the modem to be on at startup. If the modem is set to "off" at startup nothing but the diagnostics program will turn it on. Procomm Plus locks up in this condition. I suspect that there was originally a program called "modem" or something similar. A command line like "modem on" was probably required. The diagnostics program, however, is able to wake the modem up for testing. Thanks, Richard Hall On Mon, 07 Dec 1998 13:32:16 -0600, you wrote: >Did you try Com1, Com2, Com3, Com4? There is a serial port int he machine as well and >you may accidentally set them both to the same port as well. Take a deep breath and >look back over the config info with the setup disk. You may also have a DOA modem, >that's a slight chance. > >Richard A. Hall wrote: > >> No go Russ, I tried the ATA both from Dos and from Procomm Plus. I also tries >> "+++" to no avail. Any other Ideas? >> >> On Sat, 05 Dec 1998 22:00:58 -0600, you wrote: >> >> >You may try sending the string ECHO ATA >COMx (x is the comport number) at the >> >DOS prompt to see if it wakes up and makes a hellacious scream (that will quit in >> >a few seconds). If so then the modem will stay asleep until an intialization >> >string is sent to it. >> > > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Dec 7 14:37:25 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: Linux Q's References: Message-ID: <366C3C84.72020313@bigfoot.com> Never heard of ELKS and will have to look into it. This whole Linux, Minix, etc thing is one of my "to do later" items and I've not had time (or room) to get into it yet. Once I can get rid of this ton of equipment I guess I can start digging into it heavier. Thanks again Doug. Doug Yowza wrote: > Just about any 386+ box with 4+MB RAM will do, but I haven't tried MCA > boxes, so I'm not possitve about those. > > For anything less, try Minix or ELKS. > > -- Doug > > On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > Just to refresh my memory on Linux since I'm just now getting into > > looking at it, just exactly what machines work well with it, and with > > what versions/vareities for each? I have tons of machines from IBM 5170 > > AT's, PS/2's of all sorts, other 286 and 386 machines, etc and I'm > > looking at possibly selling off the useful ones that will use Linux as > > cheap as I can to get some room to walk around here. > > > > Any suggestions greatly appreciated. > > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Dec 7 14:41:16 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: WHOOPEE! In-Reply-To: <13409934080.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <13409940143.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [00 BAUD?] I MEANT 300. ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Dec 7 14:43:41 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: WHOOPEE! In-Reply-To: <199812072035.MAA30883@saul10.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <13409940582.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [IS THIS IN LOWERCASE] IT SHOWED UP INN SMALLER CAPS. APPARENTLY THE SHIFT KEY works opposite of what im used too> if I hold down shift I get lowercase. ------- From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Dec 7 14:47:34 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: old(ish) computers for sale In-Reply-To: <13409907680.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: <13409907680.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <19981207204734.1927.qmail@brouhaha.com> > [shrapnel-emitting diode] > > What about the Heat Emitting IC? Those are entirely too common, in my experience. The most bizarre thing I've seen along these lines, however, was the light-emitting EPROM. One day I noticed that: 1) My Apple ][ was acting somewhat flaky. 2) The 80-column video card, a Videx Videoterm, was getting rather warmer than usual. 3) There was light coming from the video card. I put the card on an extender, and determined that the source of light was the firmware EPROM! There was an arc between two of the bond wires. The EPROM was a 2708 EPROM, which you will recall used three power supplies, +5, +12, and -5V. Amazingly, the EPROM was still completely functional, as the 80-column card was working fine. But it was pulling the Apple's 12V supply down to about 8V, which was causing other things to flake out. I replaced the EPROM, and unfortunately I didn't think to save the arcing one. Just at a guess, I'd imagine that the spectra of light emitted by the arc probably included enough short-wave UV that the EPROM would eventually have erased itself. From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Dec 7 14:52:23 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: WHOOPEE! In-Reply-To: <13409940582.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Dec 7, 98 12:43:41 pm Message-ID: <199812072052.MAA22794@saul7.u.washington.edu> > [IS THIS IN LOWERCASE] > > IT SHOWED UP INN SMALLER CAPS. APPARENTLY THE SHIFT KEY works opposite of > what im used too> if I hold down shift I get lowercase. Yes, except the period turned into an angle bracket. -- Derek From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Dec 7 15:02:29 1998 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: WHOOPEE! In-Reply-To: <13409940582.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Dec 7, 98 12:43:41 pm Message-ID: <199812072102.NAA10858@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 571 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981207/a6d9813a/attachment.ksh From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Dec 7 15:01:54 1998 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: WHOOPEE! In-Reply-To: <199812072052.MAA22794@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, D. Peschel wrote: > > [IS THIS IN LOWERCASE] > > > > IT SHOWED UP INN SMALLER CAPS. APPARENTLY THE SHIFT KEY works opposite of > > what im used too> if I hold down shift I get lowercase. > > Yes, except the period turned into an angle bracket. > > -- Derek > On several of my older printing terminals, the Caps Lock key simply reverses the figures/letters sense of the whole keyboard, instead of the more modern selective capslock of our more Modern, Dynamic, Ultra-Advanced day. It's 10 o'clock: do *you* know what state your capslock is in? Cheers John From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Dec 7 15:05:13 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: breaking monitors (was Re: old(ish) computers for sale) In-Reply-To: <13409907680.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: <13409907680.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <19981207210513.2071.qmail@brouhaha.com> Daniel A. Seagraves writes: > Oh, and I've heard a Noise Emitting CRT - Some moron dropped a monitor on > it's back and neatly cracked the CRT neck Ten years ago I managed to crack the neck of the CRT in a Macintosh SE computer. Some of the motherboard connectors are fairly difficult to disengage, and the direction you have to yank on them lead directly to the neck. Five years and two moves ago, I was carrying a Sony KV25DXR television (a beautiful piece, the sibling of the first XBR) down the stairs by myself. The stairs were narrow, and had two 90-degree turns. [Don't try this at home. Professional driver on closed track. Odds of winning may vary.] I got the set all the way down the stairs, out the gate, and within a few feet of the car, when the power cord slipped out of my hand and tripped me. I dropped the TV and fell on it. [Hmmm... not such a professional driver after all!] Luckily for me, the tube didn't implode, or I probably would have been seriously injured. The pastic casing of the TV broke in several places, and I heard a hissing noise for about ten seconds. Having heard that noise before from the Macintosh SE, I immediately concluded that the neck of the CRT had cracked. Since it was near the car anyhow, and there wasn't a dumpster nearby, I loaded the TV into the car, and unloaded it into the garage of the new house. A few days later I decided to plug in the TV just to see what would happen. Imagine my astonishment when the thing actually worked! To this day I don't know what the hissing sound was. Friends have suggested that perhaps *I* made the sound, but I don't think so. I still have the TV, and it still works. As well as it did before I dropped it, anyhow. It had some minor problems ever since the Loma Prieta earthquake in 1989; I think a surge when the power was restored must have zapped its poor little microprocessor. If only the picture wasn't so good, I'd throw the thing away, but I guess it's destined to be an albatross about my neck until the end of my days. Or at least until the FCC makes the broadcasters abandon analog NTSC. This was the same move in which I tore a flap of skin from the middle finger of my right hand, and got to see first-hand what tendons look like, but that's another story. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 7 13:25:58 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: Scanning Fiche In-Reply-To: <199812070747.AAA01364@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Dec 7, 98 00:47:11 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 389 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981207/49eee38d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 7 13:35:59 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: old(ish) computers for sale In-Reply-To: <13409907680.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Dec 7, 98 09:42:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1699 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981207/166a29a8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 7 13:22:30 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: FYI HP-HIL Re: OT HP vectra networking In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981206233409.4f879cec@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Dec 6, 98 11:34:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1485 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981207/4ff63edf/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Dec 7 15:15:48 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: old(ish) computers for sale References: <13409907680.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> <19981207204734.1927.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <366C4583.EAA76686@bigfoot.com> Yeah those LED's with a 9v or bigger battery are always good to keep in your back pack for starting campfires, you just have to steer clear while they shed the outer jacket (g) Eric Smith wrote: > > [shrapnel-emitting diode] > > > > What about the Heat Emitting IC? > > Those are entirely too common, in my experience. > > The most bizarre thing I've seen along these lines, however, > was the light-emitting EPROM. > > One day I noticed that: > > 1) My Apple ][ was acting somewhat flaky. > > 2) The 80-column video card, a Videx Videoterm, was getting > rather warmer than usual. > > 3) There was light coming from the video card. > > I put the card on an extender, and determined that the > source of light was the firmware EPROM! There was an arc > between two of the bond wires. The EPROM was a 2708 EPROM, > which you will recall used three power supplies, +5, +12, > and -5V. > > Amazingly, the EPROM was still completely functional, > as the 80-column card was working fine. But it was > pulling the Apple's 12V supply down to about 8V, which > was causing other things to flake out. > > I replaced the EPROM, and unfortunately I didn't think to > save the arcing one. > > Just at a guess, I'd imagine that the spectra of light > emitted by the arc probably included enough short-wave > UV that the EPROM would eventually have erased itself. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Dec 7 15:20:40 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: WHOOPEE! In-Reply-To: <199812072052.MAA22794@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <13409947315.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> That's because I cheated and pushed the shift-lock key. [Don't worry, I'm back on a VDU now.] ------- From afritz at delphid.ml.org Mon Dec 7 16:19:51 1998 From: afritz at delphid.ml.org (Adam Fritzler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: Linux Q's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > Just to refresh my memory on Linux since I'm just now getting into > > looking at it, just exactly what machines work well with it, and with > > what versions/vareities for each? I have tons of machines from IBM 5170 > > AT's, PS/2's of all sorts, other 286 and 386 machines, etc and I'm 286 or less: ELKS or another Linux-8086 package. Never used these, so I don't know how complete they are. 386sx or higher: standard Linux distributions are fine. Most require at least 4mb RAM (I've squeezed Slackware into 2.5mb, but it wasn't pretty). > > looking at possibly selling off the useful ones that will use Linux as > > cheap as I can to get some room to walk around here. > > > > Any suggestions greatly appreciated. > > > > Look over www.linux.org, some good info there. Many of these machines are > only supported by special ports of Linux (like MCA ps/2's) and they may The MCA support has just started picking up steam again. Alan Cox has started having fun with it, which usually means it will work quite nicely! MCA support will finally be at decent capacity in mainstream kernels starting with 2.2.x (as of yet no released). However, I don't know of any standard Linux distribution that currently has built-in MCA support. Although, I think I saw an mcascsi.s boot disk in Slackware 3.6. There's a web page floating around that links to hacked-up MCA-capable boot disks for Red Hat, etc. I've got many PS/2 55SX's (386sx-16, MCA+ESDI only) running Linux. They run suprisingly well (good use for all those boxes and boxes of MCA token ring and ethernet cards it seems _everyone_ has laying around :). af --- Adam Fritzler { afritz@delphid.ml.org , afritz@iname.com} http://delphid.ml.org/~afritz/ "Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were." -- Chicago Reader, 15 Oct 1982 From hansp at digiweb.com Mon Dec 7 16:04:28 1998 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: old(ish) computers for sale References: <13409907680.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> <19981207204734.1927.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <366C50EC.E6EBF42E@digiweb.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Just at a guess, I'd imagine that the spectra of light > emitted by the arc probably included enough short-wave > UV that the EPROM would eventually have erased itself. Ahh the very first EEPROM ? ;-) _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Mon Dec 7 11:17:06 1998 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: Linux Q's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199812072211.RAA13574@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:19:51 -0700 (MST) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Adam Fritzler > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Linux Q's > X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > > On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote: > The MCA support has just started picking up steam again. Alan Cox has > started having fun with it, which usually means it will work quite nicely! > MCA support will finally be at decent capacity in mainstream kernels > starting with 2.2.x (as of yet no released). However, I don't know of any > standard Linux distribution that currently has built-in MCA support. > Although, I think I saw an mcascsi.s boot disk in Slackware 3.6. There's > a web page floating around that links to hacked-up MCA-capable boot disks > for Red Hat, etc. > > I've got many PS/2 55SX's (386sx-16, MCA+ESDI only) running Linux. They > run suprisingly well (good use for all those boxes and boxes of MCA token > ring and ethernet cards it seems _everyone_ has laying around :). > > af If you find an website called MCA linux (has moved to different site) http://www.dgmicro.com/mca/ the current linux kernel in it is 2.0.35. That person on that website prefers no development kernels that other dirburations had are always development kernel which I confirmed that when I d/l'ed both types. That "MCA linux" worked on my P75 (8573-401)! > > --- > Adam Fritzler > { afritz@delphid.ml.org , afritz@iname.com} > http://delphid.ml.org/~afritz/ > "Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were." > -- Chicago Reader, 15 Oct 1982 > > email: jpero@cgocable.net Pero, Jason D. From kurtkilg at geocities.com Mon Dec 7 16:04:52 1998 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:58 2005 Subject: OT HP vectra networking Message-ID: <00b901be222e$f23ee240$41021a26@maxeskin> That's the way it is with most inexpensive home micros (I think the Commodore has one of the more complicated ways of doing it, since you need to know the drive ID). Most of them are truly out-of-the box. And then modern engineers came upon a working idea and decided to update it in such a way that it uses all that power new computers have more effectively. You know, I was impressed today that an MS Draw image that opened instantly for me to modify in a Word 2.0 document on a 386 took about 30 seconds in Word 97 on a Pentium-200. >disk in drive and turn power on. Instant boot. USB? Pfeh! I dearly hope this doesn't stay this way. Why is it that one of the biggest headline-makers in computers, Linux, is 30 years old? And why can't they finally get object-oriented systems right? They've been trying to for decades, and there still isn't a good version of OLE/OpenDoc that is _really_ versatile. Flame away. >Everything new in the computer realm was invented long ago. Engineers >just re-discover good designs. Heck, the mouse turns 30 this week! > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 12/07/98] > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Dec 7 16:27:56 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: HP Vectra networking (26 days OT) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19981207150903.0094c260@popserver.lle.rochester.edu> (message from Ken Marshall on Mon, 07 Dec 1998 15:09:03 -0500) References: <3.0.32.19981207150903.0094c260@popserver.lle.rochester.edu> Message-ID: <19981207222756.2560.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I have had several older HP vectras here that have had HP-HPIL interfaces, > including an HP Vectra CS (8086) and a Vectra RS-20 (386). The HP-HPIL > interface was generally supplied as an 8-bit card that plugged directly > into the ISA bus. If you're talking about HP-IL, that is *entirely* different from HP-HIL. There's nothing called HP-HPIL. As far as I know, there was never an ISA plug-in card to do HP-HIL. The cards for HP-IL are not too rare. From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Dec 7 16:24:23 1998 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: HP Vectra networking (26 days OT) In-Reply-To: Hans B Pufal's message of Mon, 07 Dec 1998 19:49:06 +0100 References: <01be20de$4e832a40$LocalHost@THEGENERAL> <199812060611.WAA25172@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <366C2322.9304FC61@digiweb.com> Message-ID: <199812072224.OAA11704@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Hans B Pufal wrote: > That all sounds plausible, but I do not think that HP Vectras ever used > the HIL standard. When I get back to Grenoble (where the Vectras were > designed) next week I will root around and see what I can dig up on this > machine. I'd like to know what you find, my recollection comes from having to support 10-20 of the original Vectras and somewhat more ES and ES/12s where I worked through most of the late 1980s. (Hey, I thought they were OK for PC-compatibles.) I'm not sure how "standard" the HIL support on the Vectra really was. But the original Vectra had the connector, and its keyboard had two, and you could plug a 46060A mouse into the keyboard. ISTR you could put a touchscreen in the 375[34]1 monitors and hook that up with the HIL connectors on the back of the monitor but we never bothered with that (we bought Touchscreen IIs without the touchscreen too). The original Vectra keyboard isn't the same HIL keyboard as used on the 9000 line -- it has a hybrid layout that looks sort of like the original PC/AT keyboard crossed with the HP150 keyboard, so it has PC F1-F10 in two columns down the left, HP f1-f8 across the top, and a numeric/cursor pad on the right. The Vectra ES and ES/12 have the PC-standard 5-pin DIN connector for the keyboard (which has the PS/2 layout with F1-F12 across the top and Ctrl in the wrong place), but also have an HIL connector next to the keyboard connector, and I think I remember using 46060A mice with those too. -Frank McConnell From amirault at epix.net Mon Dec 7 16:42:24 1998 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: WHOOPEE! References: <199812072052.MAA22794@saul7.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <366C59D0.DB0F33DD@epix.net> Hi, Do you have a CAPS LOCK key on your keyboard? If yes, try pressing it before using the shift key. I hope this helps you. What type of computer are you using? John Amirault D. Peschel wrote: > > [IS THIS IN LOWERCASE] > > > > IT SHOWED UP INN SMALLER CAPS. APPARENTLY THE SHIFT KEY works opposite of > > what im used too> if I hold down shift I get lowercase. > > Yes, except the period turned into an angle bracket. > > -- Derek From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Dec 7 16:57:56 1998 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: WHOOPEE! In-Reply-To: <366C59D0.DB0F33DD@epix.net> Message-ID: <13409965022.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> It was an NCR 260. Printing terminal, not a computer. Talks 300/110 baud, and has EIA and DAA ports. (DAA= Bell's Data Access Arrangement? What was this?) ------- From gareth.knight2 at which.net Sun Dec 6 18:11:22 1998 From: gareth.knight2 at which.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: x86 OS's Message-ID: <000101be2236$3ef255c0$6e65a8c2@gareth.knight2> Thanks for all of your replies. I have tried a number of these already. Zane H. Healy wrote: >QNX - There is a free demo version, about all you can do is surf the web >with it > though. The demo boots from floppy. It's very good for what it does. The QNX Neutrino kernel is to form the basis of AmigaOS 5. Check out http://www.amiga.com if you don't believe me. Unfortunately the demo needs 8Mb of continuous memory, on top of the 640k. The machine I'm buying only has a total of 8Mb. >GEOS - Runs on top of DOS, the company currently supporting it, had been > providing some sort of demo version for it. It looks really great > actually, and come to think of it I believe my above mentioned 486 has > a copy on it somewhere (probably still on a Linux partition) that I > downloaded to try a year or so ago. I'd forgotten about it. I've got this running on my Pentium 2. If I can get some cheap 386 I'd install this use them as simple word processors. Perhaps also sticking a Pentium logo and "designed for Windows" on the monitor just to fool everyone ;) > Unfortunatly they no longer support the really low end systems, I can't > remember if they still support the 286 or not. Runs on 286 according to the system specs. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide | ICQ No. 24185856 http://welcome.to/aig | "Shine on your star" From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Dec 7 17:16:33 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: WHOOPEE! In-Reply-To: <13409965022.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > It was an NCR 260. Printing terminal, not a computer. > Talks 300/110 baud, and has EIA and DAA ports. (DAA= Bell's Data Access Arrangement? What was this?) > ------- Ooooooo... the 'DAA' B^} (Sherman, set the Wayback machine...) In the days before the 'Carterphone' decision, it was illegal to connect any privately owned equipment to the telephone 'network' without the use of a 'Data Access Arrangement' which could only be leased (at first, purchaseable later for mucho $$$) from your 'friendly' local telco. A nice black box to which you could connect 'approved' equipment, and the DAA would (supposedly) protect the telephone network from any indescretions that your equipment might cause. Following the 'Carterphone' decision, the specifications for DAA like devices had to be made available to manufacturers of telephony equipment (witness the little grey box that came with the original Hayes S-100 modem card), and the rest as they say, is history... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From donm at cts.com Mon Dec 7 17:20:07 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: WHOOPEE! In-Reply-To: <13409965022.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > It was an NCR 260. Printing terminal, not a computer. > Talks 300/110 baud, and has EIA and DAA ports. (DAA= Bell's Data > Access Arrangement? What was this?) > ------- That dates back to the days when it was illegal(?) to directly connect any non-Bell equipment to the phone lines. The DAA served to "protect" the lines from defective or poorly designed third party hardware. (It also served to fatten Ma Bell's purse!) - don From pechter at monmouth.com Mon Dec 7 17:28:44 1998 From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: Linux Q's In-Reply-To: <366C3BDF.5F1E4C3C@bigfoot.com> from Russ Blakeman at "Dec 7, 98 02:34:40 pm" Message-ID: <199812072328.SAA00935@monmouth.com> > > Thanks Bill. I guess the 5 units I have that also show a Unix jumper on the > motherboard should be very useful machines for this purpose. Now you have me > wanting to try one of the dozen PS/2 80's I have for a linux box. > OK... some IBM PS/2 type want to tell me what the Unix jumper was for. (I figure AIX on PS/2 may have wanted a different drive translation?...) Bill From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Dec 7 17:38:11 1998 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: WHOOPEE! In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Dec 7, 98 03:20:07 pm Message-ID: <199812072338.PAA29119@saul10.u.washington.edu> Don Maslin wrote: > On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > Talks 300/110 baud, and has EIA and DAA ports. (DAA= Bell's Data > > Access Arrangement? What was this?) > That dates back to the days when it was illegal(?) to directly connect > any non-Bell equipment to the phone lines. The DAA served to "protect" > the lines from defective or poorly designed third party hardware. (It > also served to fatten Ma Bell's purse!) Yes, but did the DAA actually do anything in terms of signals? In other words, what were the specs, and in hindsight, could people have reverse- engineered the DAA? -- Derek From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com Mon Dec 7 17:38:36 1998 From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: OT HP vectra networking In-Reply-To: <00b901be222e$f23ee240$41021a26@maxeskin> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > I dearly hope this doesn't stay this way. Why is it that one of the biggest > headline-makers in computers, Linux, is 30 years old? And why can't they What??? I think I missed something here [bangs thick head on desk]. Did you just say that Linux is 30 years old or do I have barbecue sauce in my ears? Is this some kind of metaphorical comparison of Linux to something else? Did you mean just mean Unix in general? Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Dec 7 17:55:55 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: OT HP vectra networking In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Dec 07, 1998 03:38:36 PM Message-ID: <199812072355.QAA04587@calico.litterbox.com> > > I dearly hope this doesn't stay this way. Why is it that one of the biggest > > headline-makers in computers, Linux, is 30 years old? And why can't they I'm betting he meant Linus Torvaldis, the guy who wrote Linux. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 7 17:58:29 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: breaking monitors (was Re: old(ish) computers for sale) In-Reply-To: <19981207210513.2071.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Dec 7, 98 09:05:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1193 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981207/6b27f337/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Dec 7 18:55:34 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: Linux Q's Message-ID: <199812080055.AA17132@world.std.com> < Just to refresh my memory on Linux since I'm just now getting into < looking at it, just exactly what machines work well with it, and with < what versions/vareities for each? I have tons of machines from IBM 5170 < AT's, PS/2's of all sorts, other 286 and 386 machines, etc and I'm < looking at possibly selling off the useful ones that will use Linux as < cheap as I can to get some room to walk around here. For the 8086 and 286 class machines look into MINIX V2.0 and for the 386 and up most linux versions (they may not support specific hardware like some oddball video and disks though). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Dec 7 18:55:41 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: ebay Altair Music Record Message-ID: <199812080055.AA17211@world.std.com> < Apparently it is a vinyl type record with recordings of music made on th < Altair computer. It closed somewhere around $130 which I thought was < impressive. Now I know what mine is worth. ;) I have a few others I collected back then. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Dec 7 18:55:48 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: ebay Altair Music Record Message-ID: <199812080055.AA17288@world.std.com> < Now *MY* Altair Synth (pardon the ego!) was all done in < software, with a simple 8-bit d/a converter on an i/o < port. It used 256 bytes of a waveform (fundamental sin(x) < plus some harmonics) that were stepped thru by up to there was a simplfied version by processor tech and a few others with a less sophisticated D/A (used R, 2R ladders) that were able to do that. The whole of it is Malcom Wright's _Alphanumeric music with Amplitude control_ C1975 article. I have a copy of this and have done mucic with it and voicing was possible. Allison From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com Mon Dec 7 19:10:12 1998 From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: ebay Altair Music Record In-Reply-To: <199812080055.AA17288@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > < Now *MY* Altair Synth (pardon the ego!) was all done in > < software, with a simple 8-bit d/a converter on an i/o > > there was a simplfied version by processor tech and a few others with > a less sophisticated D/A (used R, 2R ladders) that were able to do that. > Exactely - basically a buffer and resistor network. The algorithm was probably lifted from a Byte article on sound. > The whole of it is Malcom Wright's _Alphanumeric music with Amplitude > control_ C1975 article. I have a copy of this and have done mucic with Where was this published? Chuck cswiger@widomaker.com From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Dec 7 19:14:59 1998 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: Classic Micro Music (was RE: ebay Altair Music Record) In-Reply-To: <199812080055.AA17288@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19981207171041.00b82720@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 07:55 PM 12/7/98 -0500, Allison wrote: >The whole of it is Malcom Wright's _Alphanumeric music with Amplitude >control_ C1975 article. I have a copy of this and have done mucic with >it and voicing was possible. This was a good article, however I believe the definitive followup was Hal Chamberlins article in Byte on using the 6502 to generate music. He expanded that into a book called "Musical Applications of Microprocessors" (published in 1981, 1985 (see its on-topic!)) This book coveres *ALL* the techniques people used to generate music on micros. (I almost bought a KIM-1 because of this, but got most working on my Z80) --Chuck From Watzman at ibm.net Mon Dec 7 19:14:40 1998 From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: Anyone have 1/83 Byte Mag? Message-ID: <01BE221F.7826ECA0@slip-32-100-187-80.oh.us.ibm.net> I have your magazine, and I copied your article (rather long, about 20 pages). Now if you will tell me where to send it, it will be yours. Barry Watzman Watzman@ibm.net ---------- From: M McManus [SMTP:mmcmanus@direct.ca] Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 9:46 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Anyone have 1/83 Byte Mag? -----Original Message----- From: Richard A. Cini, Jr. To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, December 06, 1998 1:11 PM Subject: Anyone have 1/83 Byte Mag? >Does anyone have the 1/83 issue of Byte Magazine? In it is part 3 of an >article by Steve Ciarcia about the MPX-16 PC-compatible SBC. I have parts 1 >and 2, so I need the third. > > Thanks! > >[ Rich Cini/WUGNET >[ ClubWin!/CW7 >[ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking >[ Collector of "classic" computers >[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ >[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ ><================ reply separator =================> The local library has Byte on micrfiche. If you live in the Vancouver Area, you can get a printout or just read it. It is at the Surrey library in Guilford. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 7 18:20:28 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: HP Vectra networking (26 days OT) In-Reply-To: <19981207222756.2560.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Dec 7, 98 10:27:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 422 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981208/43b6db31/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 7 18:25:27 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: WHOOPEE! In-Reply-To: <13409965022.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Dec 7, 98 02:57:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1013 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981208/70995d2a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 7 18:28:34 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: WHOOPEE! In-Reply-To: <199812072338.PAA29119@saul10.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Dec 7, 98 03:38:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 696 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981208/5d5ec181/attachment.ksh From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Dec 7 20:08:07 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: Linux Q's In-Reply-To: <199812080055.AA17132@world.std.com> Message-ID: >< Just to refresh my memory on Linux since I'm just now getting into >< looking at it, just exactly what machines work well with it, and with >< what versions/vareities for each? I have tons of machines from IBM 5170 >< AT's, PS/2's of all sorts, other 286 and 386 machines, etc and I'm >< looking at possibly selling off the useful ones that will use Linux as >< cheap as I can to get some room to walk around here. > >For the 8086 and 286 class machines look into MINIX V2.0 and for the 386 >and up most linux versions (they may not support specific hardware >like some oddball video and disks though). Question, isn't Minix on the x86 platform still a commercial product? I know the versions for stuff such as the Atari I believe are now free, but I thought you still had to buy the x86 version. If I'm mistaken, where can you get it :^) I believe there is finally MicroChannel support for the PS/2's, but I've never even powered on the one PS/2 I've got. One of these days I'll probably throw an old version of OS/2 on it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Dec 7 20:11:45 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: VAX 11/780 memory diagnostic floppy In-Reply-To: <199812071908.LAA26029@bart.allegro.com> Message-ID: >Ebay item #47353951 is two 8" floppies. If you look closely at >one of them in the picture, it appears to be a diagnostic floppy. Good GRIEF! He has the starting bid is set at $8.50, and wants the winner to pay $3 for shipping. You can buy them new for that! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Dec 7 20:14:39 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: Scanning Fiche In-Reply-To: <199812070747.AAA01364@calico.litterbox.com> References: <19981207074225.31200.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Dec 07, 1998 07:42:25 AM Message-ID: >does anyone know whether adobe has documented the PDF format? the first >person >to write an apple2GS version is going to win friends and influence people, >IMHO. :) Not to bash the //gs, but I'm not sure it has the horsepower to view PDF files. I've seen how long it can take on a 486, and even on something like my 604e/180, it can take quite a while. It isn't exactly a fast format. A starting place would probably be to look at the source code for 'xpdf'. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From yowza at yowza.com Mon Dec 7 20:16:24 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: Linux Q's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Question, isn't Minix on the x86 platform still a commercial product? I > know the versions for stuff such as the Atari I believe are now free, but I > thought you still had to buy the x86 version. > > If I'm mistaken, where can you get it :^) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 7 20:13:45 1998 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: Linux Q's In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Dec 7, 98 06:08:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 733 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981208/849342c6/attachment.ksh From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Dec 7 20:36:16 1998 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: Linux Q's In-Reply-To: References: from "Zane H. Healy" at Dec 7, 98 06:08:07 pm Message-ID: >Well, you can always buy the latest edition of 'Operating Systems, Design >and Implementation'. That's Tannenbaum's book on Minix (and other OSs), >and it includes Minix 2.0 (I think) on CD-ROM. It's not _that_ expensive. Yes, but if you've got an older copy of the book, it becomes a bit to expensive for my tastes, since there are lots of other books that are less expensive that I'd rather have. If I really wanted to run Minix, I could get a version for one of the other platforms, as I've seen them available for FTP, just haven't seen the x86 version. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From kurtkilg at geocities.com Mon Dec 7 20:37:49 1998 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: VAX 11/780 memory diagnostic floppy In-Reply-To: <199812080232.VAA00217@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998 healyzh@ix.netcom.com wrote: > Good GRIEF! He has the starting bid is set at $8.50, and wants the winner > to pay $3 for shipping. You can buy them new for that! Now I know what to do with all those boxes of 5 1/4" disks I've got...I'm rich! Seriously, though, if someone here catches what that auction closes at, let me know. > Zane ---------------------------------------------------- Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor From kurtkilg at geocities.com Mon Dec 7 20:39:06 1998 From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: OT HP Vectra Networking Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998 A_Finney@wfi-inc.com wrote: > What??? I think I missed something here [bangs thick head on desk]. Did > you just say that Linux is 30 years old or do I have barbecue sauce in my > ears? Is this some kind of metaphorical comparison of Linux to something > else? Did you mean just mean Unix in general? I mean UNIX in general. I consider Linux and UNIX to be similar enough to say that what I am running right now is as directly descended from something that ran 30 years ago on that PDP in Bell Labs (IIRC) as any other version of UNIX. ---------------------------------------------------- Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor From foxnhare at goldrush.com Mon Dec 7 20:43:10 1998 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: Original PET Keys References: <199812070802.AAA27982@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <366C923C.3598ABA6@goldrush.com> > From: Doug Spence > Subject: Re: PET Video (was: Replacing 6550s) & 128 > > > ::"chiclet keyboard" != "rubber keys", IMHO. I'm talking about the cute > > > ::multicoloured keyboard with the small plastic keys that are arranged in a > > > ::grid pattern. I call that a chiclet keyboard. > > > > > > Hmm, okay. But multicoloured? Which colours? Arranged how? > > > > Ummm they were all metallic tops, Red, Gold, Blue, Silver... Check out my > > PET page: > > Gold? Your PETs have gold keys? I have two shades of blue. And my red > keys look significantly less metallic than the others. I couldn't tell if > they were 'metallic' or if I was looking at the nail polish my brother > coated the keys with to keep the printing from rubbing off. Maybe I'm mistaken about the gold ones, (that PET is currently back in storage)... Fortunately I was given a spare set of by a friend who serviced PETs and also once worked at Commodore (he also wrote the original PET uers guide and some of the diagnostics, I had him sign my users guide) but so far the original set on the PET haven worn all that much yet (the previous owner was very good to that machine). 0001010010110101010101000101000111000110010010 > From: Doug Spence > Subject: Re: Replacing 6550s > > > > Actually, IIRC my small-keyboard PET uses little rubber cups. But I > > > suppose there may be springs as well. The keyboard didn't work when I got > > > it, so I had to disassemble it and wipe the circuit board clean. I never > > > disassembled it beyond pulling the circuit board off. > > > > No rubber cups. Rubber cups or domes always in my experience give some > > sort of mechanical hysteresis when you press them. All PET keyboards I've > > used are smooth until they hit the stop. Small keyboard had little black > > rubber pads set into the plastic mouldings of the keys. > > I think there are rubber cups of some sort, but they may be soft > protective things rather than what provides the 'bounce'. I just tried > both PET keyboards and compared the feel to other keyboards, and you're > right, they are smooth. Potential 'rubber cup' keyboards: CoCo 1, Amiga > 3000. Weird undefinable keyboard that mushes/springs at the bottom: Atari > 130XE. :) The Calculator PET cups (which my keyboard has) are not all that deep, so you would not feel the 'mechanical hysteresis' you were describing, they act as the 'spring' I am sure. The large keyboard PETs used springs but later some VIC-20s had cups again... strange... :/ > Where would you put ROM expansion? There's no empty sockets in this model > PET. With the ExpandaPET board you have I think 4 KIM bus slots, I have a couple cards for one, one is an EPROM board and the othersome sort of floppy controller (they probabably worked together) > > > Why do POKE and PEEK fail there? Was that done on purpose or is it just > > > the result of something lame like using a signed value to represent > > > addresses? > > > > No, it's software. It was a feature that was supposed to prevent > > inquisitive geeks disassembling the BASIC ROM between $C000 and (I think) > > $E7FF. The OS ROMs, above $F000, were peekable, though, as was the I/O > > space in the E block. You could of course peek and poke the screen, $8000 > > - $83E7 inclusive. > > An inquisitive geek wouldn't be stopped long by that! Bill should have > known better. :) All you had to do was poke in an ML byte transfer routine... That 'bug' was corrected in the upgrade ROMs (good move on Commodre's part, by opening access and info on the system more people devloped for it.) as well as in the realase of the monitor program. Other companies who tried such stingy tactics (Atari early on and most certainly TI) were really hurt by it. > > I'll try and dig out my RAM expansion board, and work out what it did. > > Meanwhile, have fun! > > No fun until all my assignments and exams are done. :/ From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com Mon Dec 7 20:49:39 1998 From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: OT HP Vectra Networking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > On Mon, 7 Dec 1998 A_Finney@wfi-inc.com wrote: > > What??? I think I missed something here [bangs thick head on desk]. Did > > you just say that Linux is 30 years old or do I have barbecue sauce in my > > ears? Is this some kind of metaphorical comparison of Linux to something > > else? Did you mean just mean Unix in general? > > I mean UNIX in general. I consider Linux and UNIX to be similar enough to > say that what I am running right now is as directly descended from > something that ran 30 years ago on that PDP in Bell Labs (IIRC) as any > other version of UNIX. I know it's kind of a petty, splitting-hairs issue to users, but Linux isn't Unix. It just looks and acts like it.... Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." From yowza at yowza.com Mon Dec 7 20:55:56 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: OT HP Vectra Networking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > I know it's kind of a petty, splitting-hairs issue to users, but Linux > isn't Unix. It just looks and acts like it.... If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and is source code compatible with a duck.... -- Doug From rcini at msn.com Mon Dec 7 20:49:23 1998 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: Finished posting 8800b Manual/Next Message-ID: <00d301be2256$6a9c1ba0$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Tonight I finished posing the Altair 8800b manual. Enjoy! The next thing on the plate is the Aim65 Users Manual, and then an index to the Byte Magazines that I have. After that, probably a load of PDP-11 manuals. [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ <================ reply separator =================> From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Dec 7 21:07:39 1998 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:38:59 2005 Subject: OT HP Vectra Networking In-Reply-To: (message from Doug Yowza on Mon, 7 Dec 1998 20:55:56 -0600 (CST)) References: Message-ID: <19981208030739.4578.qmail@brouhaha.com> >> I know it's kind of a petty, splitting-hairs issue to users, but Linux >> isn't Unix. It just looks and acts like it.... > > If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and is source code compatible > with a duck.... So by that reasoning you would say that DR-DOS *IS* MS-DOS? Or that TurboDOS *IS* CP/M? I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. And to think that I derided Clinton for wanting the judge to provide a meaning for the word "is"... From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Dec 7 21:12:34 1998 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: news on the c64 Message-ID: <199812080312.UAA05282@calico.litterbox.com> Some time ago I mentioned a commodore 64 I'd been given and that I'd used the mother board to experiment with washing the motherboard in the dishwasher with favorable results. Well, today I finally got the replacement keyboard from Creative Micro Designs (CMD) along with a cable to connect the thing to a composite monitor I got with the thing. 10 minutes of surgery and I have a functional c64 again. Celebrated by typing in the "Michael row your boat ashore" program in the manual. Whee. :) Scarey thing is the catalog they sent me, with all kinds of drives, a speedup system, hard disks, and so on. I think I need to get rid of this machine before it sucks more money out of me. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From yowza at yowza.com Mon Dec 7 21:15:54 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: OT HP Vectra Networking In-Reply-To: <19981208030739.4578.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 8 Dec 1998, Eric Smith wrote: > > If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and is source code compatible > > with a duck.... > > So by that reasoning you would say that DR-DOS *IS* MS-DOS? > Or that TurboDOS *IS* CP/M? > > I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. Whether brand-conscious consumers like it or not, Unix has become a generic name much like Xerox or Kleenex. Linux isa Unix isa OS isa software. SCO UnixWare isa Unix isa OS isa software. -- Doug From DaveyGF at aol.com Mon Dec 7 20:59:43 1998 From: DaveyGF at aol.com (DaveyGF@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: New Altair Computers website! Message-ID: Just finished the beta on my new website dedicated to Altair computers.. Check it out. I will be making several additions soon- including a complete archive of '97 and '98 classiccmp list server messages pertaining to altair subjects and a virtual museum. http://altaircomputers.org David daveygf@aol.com From amirault at epix.net Mon Dec 7 21:24:59 1998 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr References: <199812072247.RAA16710@lima.epix.net> Message-ID: <366C9C0A.92A1315D@epix.net> > Hi, > I have one of the old IBM Edsels and I am currently trying to get the > TMC850jr SCSI card I have to get a CDROM to work on it. Can anyone give me > any > clues as to how to do this? Can it be done at all? > > I also have the combo cartridge V3.0 in this machine and upgraded the > harddrive from DOS 5.0 to DOS 6.22 and now I keep getting write errors when > I > try to install programs onto the harddrive. Any help here? > > Thanks everyone. > > John Amirault From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Dec 7 21:22:25 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: ebay Altair Music Record Message-ID: <199812080322.AA06946@world.std.com> < > The whole of it is Malcom Wright's _Alphanumeric music with Amplitude < > control_ C1975 article. I have a copy of this and have done mucic wit < < Where was this published? Peoples Computer Company, PCC was Doctor Dobbs and the articles were there and then published as a seperate thing. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Dec 7 21:22:39 1998 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: Linux Q's Message-ID: <199812080322.AA07066@world.std.com> < Question, isn't Minix on the x86 platform still a commercial product? < know the versions for stuff such as the Atari I believe are now free, bu < thought you still had to buy the x86 version. Not really. It's a copyrighted, freely available for non commercial use if memory serves. You can get it sources and all off the net or by buying the book on OS Design and Implmentation with it's CDrom. The details are educational/personal use I think. I doubt it would be popular for commercial use except as maybe an embedded kernal. It's supposed to work on PS2/50z but when I tried it there was a floppy problem that kept getting in the way. I put it aside when a 386sx/16 came my way as it was a excellent MINIX platform. Allison From kyrrin at my-dejanews.com Mon Dec 7 21:23:27 1998 From: kyrrin at my-dejanews.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: FW: BIG VAXen available Message-ID: <366d9b63.1938411328@smtp.jps.net> CLASSICCMP folk and Dan B., I found this on Usenet. Any takers? You'd need LOTS of room and (probably) lots of power, but this could be a neat addition to any collection. Read on... -=-=- -=-=- From: "Kent Rankin" Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec Subject: What is a VAX 8350 fully loaded worth? Lines: 43 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: <3aZa2.412$kr2.116146@news1.usit.net> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 17:59:43 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.24.75.116 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usit.net X-Trace: news1.usit.net 913071871 208.24.75.116 (Mon, 07 Dec 1998 18:04:31 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 18:04:31 EDT Organization: U. S. Internet, Inc. Path: blushng.jps.net!news.pbi.net!131.119.28.147!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.usit.net!news1.usit.net!not-for-mail A friend of mine has a VAX 8350 that he picked up recently. It's quite a large setup, to say the least. I was wondering if someone could tell me what I should get(at least) for it for him, and what I could get for it. Here's what it has: VAX 8350 with 2 processors SA482 Storage array loaded with 3 RA82(6.22MB) drives A giant 200amp power conditioner that looks just like the VAX A TU81-Plus Tape drive Two DMB32-M things. I think that they are multiplexors Anyone know about them? Two LA120 printers. One DA model, and one AA model. A LA75 printer A VT420 terminal(JA model) Five DECServer200/DL Terminal Servers. Anyone know what the DL stands for? I think that is all that is included, but I could be wrong. I'm notreally sure as to what cards are in it(besides the TU81 Plus' interface). The box has absolutely TONS of packages from DEC on it with the licenses. The manuals are all there, and many of them have extras that are shrinkrapped. Many spare parts for the machine are new, and in DEC boxes, still wrapped. There are boxes and boxes of new manuals, to give you an idea. The machine was on maintenance until September of 1998. Plus, as an added bonus, it has the whole Y2k support package. I do know that all of the packages are very recent versions, and that OpenVMS 7.0 is loaded on it. It was used(until upgraded) with MANY terminals running off of it for basic business uses, and for calculating the lights(andtheir positions) needed in a stadium, and is in perfect condition. Anyhow, anyone have any ideas on the pricing? Perhaps a good outlet for me to sell it? Thanks in advance, Kent Rankin -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From ss at allegro.com Mon Dec 7 21:23:55 1998 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: VAX 11/780 memory diagnostic floppy In-Reply-To: <"v04011706b2923adeb868(a)(091)192.168.1.2(093)*"@MHS> Message-ID: Zane writes: > >Ebay item #47353951 is two 8" floppies. If you look closely at > >one of them in the picture, it appears to be a diagnostic floppy. > > Good GRIEF! He has the starting bid is set at $8.50, and wants > the winner to pay $3 for shipping. You can buy them new for that! True...but the interesting point to this thread is that one of the disks has a memory diagnostic ... *that* might be of use to some VAX collectors! SS From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 7 21:34:43 1998 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: news on the c64 In-Reply-To: <199812080312.UAA05282@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: >ashore" program in the manual. Whee. :) Scarey thing is the catalog they >sent me, with all kinds of drives, a speedup system, hard disks, and so on. >I think I need to get rid of this machine before it sucks more money out >of me. Oh, come on now, just think about how much fun you could have surfing the net on a C-64 with a 20Mhz processor, 16Mb RAM, 2.88Mb floppy, 4Gb HD, CD-ROM, and a fast modem. I just wish they had a Ethernet card for them! I wonder how much of that hardware Lunix supports? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Dec 7 21:36:43 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: Linux Q's Message-ID: <30372598.366c9ecb@aol.com> i've found a web site where minix/ELKS can be obtained, but it was expected for one to have a functioning linux system to download and create the disk images. since i only have OS2/windont95 access, are there any other choices as far as downloading a copy to install on an xt? << < Question, isn't Minix on the x86 platform still a commercial product? < know the versions for stuff such as the Atari I believe are now free, bu < thought you still had to buy the x86 version. >> From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 7 21:53:29 1998 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: Linux Q's In-Reply-To: <30372598.366c9ecb@aol.com> Message-ID: >i've found a web site where minix/ELKS can be obtained, but it was expected >for one to have a functioning linux system to download and create the disk >images. since i only have OS2/windont95 access, are there any other choices as >far as downloading a copy to install on an xt? If you're refering to standard UNIX disk images that are created using 'dd' you should be able to simply use RAWRITE.EXE Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Dec 7 21:40:47 1998 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Message-ID: <18d71538.366c9fbf@aol.com> a PCjr version of a scsi card? if so, that's certainly a rarity! there wont be much you can do with a cdrom on a jr unless you're reading your own cds. what kind of write errors are you getting? have you tried clean booting using F5? partition size <32meg? In a message dated 12/7/98 10:25:44 PM EST, amirault@epix.net writes: << > I have one of the old IBM Edsels and I am currently trying to get the > TMC850jr SCSI card I have to get a CDROM to work on it. Can anyone give me > any > clues as to how to do this? Can it be done at all? > > I also have the combo cartridge V3.0 in this machine and upgraded the > harddrive from DOS 5.0 to DOS 6.22 and now I keep getting write errors when > I > try to install programs onto the harddrive. Any help here? > > Thanks everyone. > > John Amirault >> From yowza at yowza.com Mon Dec 7 22:00:59 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: Finished posting 8800b Manual/Next In-Reply-To: <00d301be2256$6a9c1ba0$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > and then an index to the Byte Magazines that I have. Oh boy. I've had a back-burner BYTE index project that I moved forward by almost a millimeter last weekend. How far along are you on putting together an index? If you, or anybody else, wants to collaborate on a project like this, there's already several thousand BYTE's that have been indexed in BibTex format. I plan (OK, hope) to automate entry and searching of this and similar indices. Currently the coverage of material of interest to this group (like early BYTEs) is pretty thin. Check out Nelson H. F. Beebe's web site for a sense of what's been done so far: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/bibliographies.html -- Doug From DaveyGF at aol.com Mon Dec 7 21:44:55 1998 From: DaveyGF at aol.com (DaveyGF@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: ebay Altair Music Record Message-ID: <1283a10a.366ca0b7@aol.com> Does anyone on this list actually have the original PCC/Dr Dobbs issues from 1975? 1976? David From Watzman at ibm.net Mon Dec 7 22:08:48 1998 From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: Finished posting 8800b Manual/Next Message-ID: <01BE2236.F49D9920@slip-32-100-187-10.oh.us.ibm.net> Myself and another individual are trying to find the source of a magazine article which describes a modification to the IMSAI CP-A front panel. The title of the article is "The Slow-Stepping Debugger" by Howard Bendrot. We believe that it was published between 1976 and 1979, probably in 1977. We believe it is likely that it was published in Kilobaud Microcomputing magazine, and there is some suspicion that it may have been on Page 60. But none of this is confirmed, and we don't have these magazines to verify this. Can anyone identify the Magazine, issue and page number of this article for certain ? Thanks, Barry Watzman From Watzman at ibm.net Mon Dec 7 22:19:50 1998 From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: Finished posting 8800b Manual/Next Message-ID: <01BE2238.5C1BEEC0@slip-32-100-187-10.oh.us.ibm.net> Back in the 70's, there was an individual who sold indexes to the various computer magazines (in hard copy format, and perhaps on Disk). I bought it and have a copy of it somewhere, but there is very little chance that I could now find it. The later issues, starting sometime in the 80's, are indexed in Computer Library, a $1,000 per year Ziff-Davis service on a monthly CD-ROM (in fact, not only are they indexed, but I believe that the text of the entire magazine is included in the service)(yes, I know that ZD is a competitor of McGraw Hill, which publishes Byte, but Computer Library has competing publications). But this didn't start until the late 80's. Barry Watzman ---------- From: Doug Yowza [SMTP:yowza@yowza.com] Sent: Monday, December 07, 1998 5:01 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Finished posting 8800b Manual/Next On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > and then an index to the Byte Magazines that I have. Oh boy. I've had a back-burner BYTE index project that I moved forward by almost a millimeter last weekend. How far along are you on putting together an index? If you, or anybody else, wants to collaborate on a project like this, there's already several thousand BYTE's that have been indexed in BibTex format. I plan (OK, hope) to automate entry and searching of this and similar indices. Currently the coverage of material of interest to this group (like early BYTEs) is pretty thin. Check out Nelson H. F. Beebe's web site for a sense of what's been done so far: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/bibliographies.html -- Doug From yowza at yowza.com Mon Dec 7 22:30:08 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: Finished posting 8800b Manual/Next In-Reply-To: <01BE2238.5C1BEEC0@slip-32-100-187-10.oh.us.ibm.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Barry A. Watzman wrote: > Back in the 70's, there was an individual who sold indexes to the > various computer magazines (in hard copy format, and perhaps on Disk). > I bought it and have a copy of it somewhere, but there is very little > chance that I could now find it. If anybody has the digital version of this, I'll offer to help get it up on the web in usable form. > The later issues, starting sometime in the 80's, are indexed in Computer > Library, a $1,000 per year Ziff-Davis service on a monthly CD-ROM (in > fact, not only are they indexed, but I believe that the text of the > entire magazine is included in the service)(yes, I know that ZD is a > competitor of McGraw Hill, which publishes Byte, but Computer Library > has competing publications). > > But this didn't start until the late 80's. Somebody at BYTE made an attempt to create an index of his own in the late 80's, and made them available via ftp from uunet: http://unix.hensa.ac.uk/ftp/mirrors/uunet/published/byte/indexes/ BYTE also published issues on CD-ROM from, I think, 1990 on, and you can search their web site for articles from 1994 on: http://www.byte.com/ -- Doug From donm at cts.com Mon Dec 7 22:40:57 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: HP Vectra networking (26 days OT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > As far as I know, there was never an ISA plug-in card to do HP-HIL. The > > I am not sure. There is an HP-150 card with a HP-HIL (1RD2) chip on it, > along with expanded memory. I have it in my 150. > > There are also HP-IL (Interface Loop) cards for the HP150 and ISA. I have > the former, and have seen the latter in a friend's machine Yes, I have one in front of me as I type. It is HP Assy No. 82973-60001. - don > > cards for HP-IL are not too rare. > > > > They're not that common in the UK... > > -tony > > From yowza at yowza.com Mon Dec 7 22:49:42 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: ebay Altair Music Record In-Reply-To: <1283a10a.366ca0b7@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998 DaveyGF@aol.com wrote: > Does anyone on this list actually have the original PCC/Dr Dobbs issues from > 1975? 1976? Yes, but the word "Altair" is on several pages, so I won't take less than $500. -- Doug From marvin at rain.org Mon Dec 7 23:12:22 1998 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: HP Vectra networking (26 days OT) References: Message-ID: <366CB536.F862170F@rain.org> Don Maslin wrote: > > On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > As far as I know, there was never an ISA plug-in card to do HP-HIL. The > > > > I am not sure. There is an HP-150 card with a HP-HIL (1RD2) chip on it, > > along with expanded memory. I have it in my 150. > > > > There are also HP-IL (Interface Loop) cards for the HP150 and ISA. I have > > the former, and have seen the latter in a friend's machine > > Yes, I have one in front of me as I type. It is HP Assy No. 82973-60001. I have one also, but have never used it. Does it require special software, or software drivers? From donm at cts.com Mon Dec 7 23:21:58 1998 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: HP Vectra networking (26 days OT) In-Reply-To: <366CB536.F862170F@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote: > Don Maslin wrote: > > > Yes, I have one in front of me as I type. It is HP Assy No. 82973-60001. > > I have one also, but have never used it. Does it require special software, > or software drivers? Yes, I have a disk with several variants of the software. - don From DaveyGF at aol.com Mon Dec 7 23:36:39 1998 From: DaveyGF at aol.com (DaveyGF@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: Dr. Dobbs.. Message-ID: <23b1e7b2.366cbae7@aol.com> I will pay you $250.00 for one issue, if I can pick anyone of your set. David From yowza at yowza.com Mon Dec 7 23:54:56 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: Dr. Dobbs.. In-Reply-To: <23b1e7b2.366cbae7@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Dec 1998 DaveyGF@aol.com wrote: > I will pay you $250.00 for one issue, if I can pick anyone of your set. I'll let somebody else take advantage of your generous offer. I feel that such absurd prices take much of the fun out of this hobby. However, if you'd like a photocopy of a specific article, let me know, and it's yours at my cost. -- Doug From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Dec 8 00:28:44 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: WHOOPEE! In-Reply-To: <13409965022.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > It was an NCR 260. Printing terminal, not a computer. Talks 300/110 > baud, and has EIA and DAA ports. (DAA= Bell's Data Access > Arrangement? What was this?) Me & Eric Smith were just going over this trying to figure out whether or not we needed one for the original DC Hayes S100 modem card. The DAA was basically a device that converted the digital signals coming off the card into analog tones. You could only get this from Bell back in the day and you had to pay dearly for it. The plexi-glass covered box that comes with the Hayes Micromodem ][ is a DAA. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/07/98] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Dec 8 00:33:16 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: WHOOPEE! In-Reply-To: <199812072338.PAA29119@saul10.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, D. Peschel wrote: > Yes, but did the DAA actually do anything in terms of signals? In other > words, what were the specs, and in hindsight, could people have reverse- > engineered the DAA? I may be wrong but from my interpretation of the Hayes manual it seemed to do some sort of decoding/encoding. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/07/98] From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Dec 8 00:39:43 1998 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: WHOOPEE! In-Reply-To: References: <13409965022.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981207223943.0130e01c@agora.rdrop.com> At 10:28 PM 12/7/98 -0800, Sellam wrote: > >Me & Eric Smith were just going over this trying to figure out whether or >not we needed one for the original DC Hayes S100 modem card. The DAA was >basically a device that converted the digital signals coming off the card >into analog tones. You could only get this from Bell back in the day and >you had to pay dearly for it. Quote from 'Independance Day' (I love a good 'blow-things-up' movie!): "That's not entirely accurate..." B^} There was no conversion of digital to analog done in the DAA. Specifically in the case of the Hayes for example, the (analog) audio modulation was done in the cute orange blob on the board. The only digital signals coming off the board drove the relay in the DAA box for acquiring the line and pulse dialing. Beyond that, the DAA provided 'protection' and coupling/limiting of the analog signals from the board to the phone line. >The plexi-glass covered box that comes with the Hayes Micromodem ][ is a >DAA. Yep... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From DaveyGF at aol.com Tue Dec 8 00:39:25 1998 From: DaveyGF at aol.com (DaveyGF@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: Dr. Dobbs.. Message-ID: <11c38a4.366cc99d@aol.com> Could you photocopy articles, and advertisements pertaining to Altair? Gates open letter to hobbyists about piracy? I will gladly take those. David From 1davidn at gte.net Tue Dec 8 00:51:15 1998 From: 1davidn at gte.net (David Norris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: Altair cassette bootstrap Message-ID: <000701be2277$26e447e0$0700005a@Albatross.NORRISATHOME> I just acquired and fixed two Altairs (one 8800z and one 8800b) and have MITS 4K and 8K BASIC on tape. Problem is, I can't find any bootstrap loader for these programs. I have the simple cassette read program in the Altair manual, but that just gives me raw bytes. I suppose I could reverse engineer the tape format (I can read the tape fine) and write my own cassette boot loader, but I wondered if anyone out there could possibly lend a hand? Thanks, -- Dave Norris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981207/67fe0ff7/attachment.html From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Dec 8 00:51:41 1998 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: OT HP Vectra Networking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > > I know it's kind of a petty, splitting-hairs issue to users, but Linux > > isn't Unix. It just looks and acts like it.... > > If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and is source code compatible > with a duck.... I guess officially, Linux is a POSIX compliant operating system, as is Unix. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 12/07/98] From yowza at yowza.com Tue Dec 8 02:02:00 1998 From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: Dr. Dobbs.. In-Reply-To: <11c38a4.366cc99d@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Dec 1998 DaveyGF@aol.com wrote: > Could you photocopy articles, and advertisements pertaining to Altair? Gates > open letter to hobbyists about piracy? I will gladly take those. There's a copy of the Gates letter here: http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/gateswhine.html If you'd like to send me *private* mail with specific issues/articles you're looking for, I can probably help you with your Altair fixation :-) BTW, I took a look at your web site. As you probably know, the $12,100 Altair didn't sell, and it makes it more difficult for *enthusiasts* and preservationists to get their own Altairs when such misperceptions are out there. In fact, there are collectors on this list who don't even feel comfortable discussing machines in their collection because of the speculator interest such machines attract. This is a Bad Thing. You also position MITS as an innovator in the calculator market on par with HP. HP started making calculators in 1968, and I think it's safe to say that HP's 1968 *calculator* was more sophisticated and innovative than MITS' 1975 *computer*. And HP's 1972 desktop computer had BASIC built-in several years before Gates et al decided to try to make money by selling their me-too product. -- Doug From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Dec 8 05:13:21 1998 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: x86 OS's In-Reply-To: <000101be2236$3ef255c0$6e65a8c2@gareth.knight2> Message-ID: <199812081014.KAA26423@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > >QNX - There is a free demo version, about all you can do is surf the web > >with it though. The demo boots from floppy. > It's very good for what it does. The QNX Neutrino kernel is to form the > basis of AmigaOS 5. Check out http://www.amiga.com if you don't believe me. > Unfortunately the demo needs 8Mb of continuous memory, on top of the 640k. > The machine I'm buying only has a total of 8Mb. The Web-Disk runs perfectly on a 8 MB machine and I can't find any information to have 640K plus 8MB, which would be a rather unusual configuration for a PC, since you need a 12 SIMM slot board with 8x1MB + 4x256K, And 256 KB SIMs have been only a very short time (back in the age of '286es and '386es) widely available. And if you take a look at the description of the boot process you might notice that the term 'continous memory' aplies to have at least one meg of RAM at X'10000' since the QNX loader puts the OS kernal up ther (and of corse you need mem below, since it is a x86). Gruss Hans -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue Dec 8 05:32:26 1998 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: Linux Q's References: <199812072328.SAA00935@monmouth.com> Message-ID: <366D0E49.F1FBAB2A@bigfoot.com> The Unix jumper is on some Intel desktop 386DX machines I have, not PS/2 machines that I've ever seen (there may be though). The Intel units are very nicely shaped and very durable, as evidenced by the sore back I got from moving them around the other day - and I don't already have a bad back. Bill Pechter wrote: > > > > Thanks Bill. I guess the 5 units I have that also show a Unix jumper on the > > motherboard should be very useful machines for this purpose. Now you have me > > wanting to try one of the dozen PS/2 80's I have for a linux box. > > > > OK... some IBM PS/2 type want to tell me what the Unix jumper was for. > (I figure AIX on PS/2 may have wanted a different drive translation?...) > > Bill From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Tue Dec 8 05:57:42 1998 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: OT HP vectra networking In-Reply-To: References: <199812071902.LAA10916@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> ::> It's probably an HP-HIL (Hewlett-Packard Human Interface Link IIRC) >> ::> connector. This was an HP interface used for keyboards, mice, >> ::> touchscreens, digitising tablets, security dongles, etc. You can >> ::> daisy-chain several devices off the same connector. >> :: >> ::Hmm, sounds like USB, things don't change do they ;-) >> >> What about the Commodore serial bus? :-) > >I got another Atari 800 over the weekend and decided to hook it up to play >Fort Apocalypse which I got in a batch of disks with the computer (I've >been wanting to play that damn game since the eighth grade but never got a >chance because all the other kids were computer hogs). I was struck at >how simple it was to hook everything up. Plug power into computer. Plus >power into disk drive. Plug cable between disk drive and computer. Stick >disk in drive and turn power on. Instant boot. USB? Pfeh! > >Everything new in the computer realm was invented long ago. Engineers >just re-discover good designs. Heck, the mouse turns 30 this week! Invented and used. Speaking of mice, I totally freaked out when I found out that 'PC's needed *drivers* - being used to Amigas, Apples and Ataris. Of course all those systems need some way of telling the computer how to communicate with anything they are connected to - but, they put it discretely somewhere in the operating system or in the hardware. Nasos From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Dec 8 07:00:49 1998 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005 Subject: Scanning Fiche In-Reply-To: <199812071905.TAA09357@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> References: Message-ID: <199812081201.MAA14432@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> > >not critical that it be pretty - just readable. I wouldn't be surprised > >if you could rig up something like this pretty easily yourself; pick up > >one of the fiche viewers that they can't give away at most university > >and government auctions, get a cheap flatbed scanner (even pretty good > >new ones can be had for under $100), take the mechanism out of the case, > >and bolt it to the front of the fiche viewer. You'd have to remove or > >disable the light source, since the bulb in the fiche viewer provides > >the illumination. I don't think you'd even have to mess with the focal > >length much; the fiche viewers normally do a rear-projection on frosted > >glass, and the scanner is set up to focus on a sheet of paper an inch or > >two away from the sensor, so with a spacer or two it should just work. > >That sounds like an interesting enough project that I might even build > >one if I had anything on fiche to scan. (I'm more interested in getting Yesterday I tried a similar way as described above. I took a sheet of Butterbrotpapier (sorry, I dont know any translation, its a kind of semitransparent paper used to cover sandwitches - Butterbrote :) put it atop the scanner, disabled the lamp (I had to disable the lamp only during the 'real' scan, since my scanner always add a 'white adjustment' before scaning, so the the lamp is only temporary disabeled AND I had to fake the lamp controll signals ... this took me almost three hours to figure out how they controll it), added one mirror and used a fiche projector to display one page right on the paper screen. 
mirror
        /      light               --
        /+- - - - - - - - - - - - - I   projector with fiche
      /  :                            --
    /--------------- paper
     ######## scanner
Since the fiche information was only b&w, the contrast was no problem at all. This method should work well for low resolution scanners. > You could do it even without changing the scanner at all. take two > mirrors and build a 'hat' for the fiche - the light will pass the fice at > one side, get reflected by the mirrors and be passed back, now thru > the fiche. This works quite will since in most scanners the light runs > some one or two cm in front of the scannerline. Of course the 'hat' > has to be adjusted to this angle. It works quite well for pictures, but > for a fiche you might need a _real_ high resolution scanner. If the > fiche document is made from ordinary 'typewriter' papers or drawings > (like most of my 1960s/70s mainframe fiches) the resolution should > be better than 1200 dpi to get an idea of the text. If small parts are > to be viewed, >3000 is needed. One advantage of fiches is still the > _real_ high resolution :) Postscript: 
frontview (in direction of scanner movement)
     /\mirrors
    /  \
   /+--+\ way of light
  / I  I \
 / --- I  \ fiche
------------ scanner

sideview:

 +-------+  mirrors
 I I\    I  way of light
 I I \   I
 I I  \  I
 I ----- *  fiche
----------- scanner
  >>>>>>>   movement
* = this side has to be a bit higher - the 'hat' is 
lifted here to fit the lamp angle of the scanner -
this needs some trieal and error. Its also for scanners
with the lamp infront of the scan line - otherwise the
oherer side has to be lifted.

Sorry, but it's hard to do high resolution 3D ASCII
drawinge :)))

Gruss
Hans


--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Dec  8 07:00:49 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005
Subject: Linux Q's
In-Reply-To: <366C3253.3C30499D@bigfoot.com>
Message-ID: <199812081201.MAA14427@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> Just to refresh my memory on Linux since I'm just now getting into
> looking at it, just exactly what machines work well with it, and with
> what versions/vareities for each? I have tons of machines from IBM 5170
> AT's, PS/2's of all sorts, other 286 and 386 machines, etc and I'm
> looking at possibly selling off the useful ones that will use Linux as
> cheap as I can to get some room to walk around here.

> Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

AT386es will run Linux, also most PS/2 with 386sx and above.
MCA has to be taken carefuly, since the support is somewhat
low. Try it - or read the MCA HOWTO (cheating). If you take
an actual distribution (I recomend SuSE) a 486 with 8 MB and
100 MB HD the minimum - But its still possible to strip it
down to run on a 16 MHz 386DX  with 4 MB RAM and 40 MB
of hard disk space and still have some room for an application.
12 MHz 386SX is posible to use for a dedicated service (I still
have a 16 MHz 386sx with 8 MB running as print server). But
as workstation its rather painfuly slow. Here you might be better
off if you try to get an older distribution (Linux also starts to add
some fat around the bones).

Also with an 386 I recomend only command line (A/N terminal)
operation - using X gives you the same feeling than using MS-Office
on a 486 - Point, click and go for a cup of coffee until the button
reacts.

You should select the distribution carefuly, since some are
only running on 486 or pentium by default or, even if the kernal
will boot, a lot of the binaries are compieled for 486 or above
CPUs - so you have to recompile some apps.

On the 286es you need a different OS - Linux is a 386+ OS.
Maybe look for old copies of SCO at swap meets. I don't
know any free 286 *nix. Even Minix is still copyrighted - you
may have to buy at leas one copy of Tannenbaums book on
Minix.

Gruss
Hans

--
Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh.
H.Achternbusch


From kmar at lle.rochester.edu  Tue Dec  8 07:21:19 1998
From: kmar at lle.rochester.edu (Ken Marshall)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005
Subject: HP Vectra networking (26 days OT)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19981208082118.00962d80@popserver.lle.rochester.edu>

At 10:27 PM 12/7/98 -0000, you wrote:
>> I have had several older HP vectras here that have had HP-HPIL interfaces,
>> including an HP Vectra CS (8086) and a Vectra RS-20 (386). The HP-HPIL
>> interface was generally supplied as an 8-bit card that plugged directly
>> into the ISA bus. 
>
>If you're talking about HP-IL, that is *entirely* different from HP-HIL.
>
>There's nothing called HP-HPIL.

You are correct. I meant HP-HIL. HP-HPIL was a typograpical error.

I also have HP-IL here, but that's used to interface a gas chromatograph
/mass spectrometer to a HP 9000 series workstation. I know of others here
that have used HP-IL for other HP systems, but I've never seen it on HP PC's.


>
>As far as I know, there was never an ISA plug-in card to do HP-HIL.  The
>cards for HP-IL are not too rare.
>
>
Kenneth L. Marshall
Research Engineer, Optical Materials
Laboratory for Laser Energetics
University of Rochester
250 East River Road
Rochester, NY 14623
Phone:(716)-275-8247
Fax:  (716)-275-5960


From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au  Tue Dec  8 09:22:32 1998
From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005
Subject: WHOOPEE!
Message-ID: <01be22be$939ca5c0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Tuesday, 8 December 1998 13:35
Subject: Re: WHOOPEE!



>If you think the first paragraph is bad, you should try the UK at about
>the same time. You had to rent the entire modem from the GPO (Post
>Office, who also ran the telephone system). And you had to have a
>'barrier box' (a box containing zeners and fuses) on the RS232 port of
>the modem, just in case your terminal decided to send mains down to the
>modem.


Australia was almost as bad.  The then PMG Dept. (The phone 'company' was
part of the Post Office at that time) were rather hostile about plugging
anything but a phone in.  Initially a "line isolation" unit was required
between any 3rd party device and the phone, and only a PMG technician could
install it.  Eventually, they started to test and approve the modems etc
themselves, but it was virtually impossible to get anything homebuilt
through that process, since it involved providing examples for the PMG to
test to destruction by pouring enourmous voltages into them to ensure that
they would not permit said destructive voltage to reach the phone system.
Even now, we can't legally use modems that are not Austel approved, even if
they are ok under FCC or British Telecom regs.   There was a time when lots
of BBS's ran illegal HST Modems, which were not imported into Australia, and
hence not type approved at the time.

Cheers

Geoff
Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie
South Australia.
netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au



From jeff.kaneko at juno.com  Tue Dec  8 08:55:57 1998
From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005
Subject: New Altair Computers website!
Message-ID: <19981208.093241.244.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>

Hmph.  ALTAIR Collecting: Another rich man's hobby.
I'm just really glad there isn't this kind of interest in 
'collecting' the stuff *I'm* interested in.  I can still 
get most of what I want pretty cheaply (although that's 
starting to change).

Damn.

Jeff

On Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:59:43 EST DaveyGF@aol.com writes:
>Just finished the beta on my new website dedicated to Altair 
>computers.. Check
>it out. I will be making several additions soon- including a complete 
>archive
>of '97 and '98 classiccmp list server messages pertaining to altair 
>subjects
>and a virtual museum.
>
>http://altaircomputers.org  
>
>David
>daveygf@aol.com
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From jfoust at threedee.com  Tue Dec  8 08:36:08 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005
Subject: Indexing Byte
In-Reply-To: 
References: <01BE2238.5C1BEEC0@slip-32-100-187-10.oh.us.ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981208083608.00f08840@pc>


Apart from an index of Byte or other old magazines, wouldn't it be
more interesting to scan the actual pages?  If I could buy a DVD
with the first ten years, I could at least decimate my piles in
the basement.  The article compendiums that are offered for Byte,
DDJ, etc. are interesting, but so are the ads, and they aren't included.

- John



From jfoust at threedee.com  Tue Dec  8 08:51:18 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005
Subject: New Altair Computers website!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981208085118.00eebc00@pc>

At 09:59 PM 12/7/98 EST, DaveyGF@aol.com wrote:
>Just finished the beta on my new website dedicated to Altair computers..
Check
>it out. I will be making several additions soon- including a complete archive
>of '97 and '98 classiccmp list server messages pertaining to altair subjects
>and a virtual museum.
>http://altaircomputers.org  

Nice start!  The link I liked best was the Altair emulator in Java at
  They implemented a number
of things I dreamed of seeing - emulation of the Teletype, for example,
and easy access to tapes and bootstraps.

However, I don't think it's accurate to give much meaning to the
$12,000 bid on an Altair.  An unconsummated transaction means nothing.
Did you confirm this with Lemay?  I tried and got no response.  

- John



From lfb107 at psu.edu  Tue Dec  8 10:57:56 1998
From: lfb107 at psu.edu (Les Berry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005
Subject: x86 OS's
Message-ID: <199812081654.LAA79476@f04n01.cac.psu.edu>

Here's a few more (some are not x86 but I thought you guys might
still be ineterested) that I stole off a web page.  Particullarly interesting
is the last site with a *lot* of oddball stuff.  Enjoy!

            The following is a list of free operating systems that are
specifically 
            made for, or will run on, "obsolete" computers. The OS name's are 
             followed by the intended processor/system and the "mainstream" 
                                operating system it attempts to emulate. 
                                                                            
                        


ELKS (Embeddable Linux Kernel Subset) 
http://www.linux.org.uk/Linux8086.html 

ELKS is still in development and is an attempt to port Linux to run on an
8088/8086 processor. Future plans include 68000 and possibly Z80 ports. 

Caldera OpenDOS 
http://www.caldera.com 

OpenDOS is a replacement for MS-DOS or PC-DOS on 80x86 processor 
based systems and includes the source code for the kernel. 

LUnix 
http://wwwcip.rus.uni-stuttgart.de/~etk10217/c64.html 

LUnix is a UNIX type clone for the C64/128. Future plans include support for 
TCP/IP amomg other things. 

Proolix 
http://www.infocom.kharkov.ua:80/~prool/proolix.htm 

Another UNIX clone for 8088/8086 processor based systems that is somewhat 
similar to MINIX. 

Minix 
http://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/minix.html 

Here it is, the original 8088/8086 UNIX clone. This is the Operating System 
that gave rise to the popular Linux OS and is currently available for PC, 
Amiga, Macintosh, and Atari ST systems. 

UZI 
http://oak.oakland.edu/oak/cpm/uzi-pre.html 

Currently, there are no UZI "Home Pages" (atleast none that I know of). 
Here is a link for the FTP location of the UZI binaries for Z80 machines. 

OS/A65 
http://www2.tu-chamnitz.de/~fachat/csa 

Originally made for a home built computer, OS/A65 was ported to the C64 
and is theoretically portable to many other 6502 systems. Includes support 
for multitasking and TCP/IP. 

FreeDOS (DOS-C) 
http://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/freedos.html 
http://www.freedos.org 

FreeDOS is meant as a replacement for MS-DOS or PC-DOS for all 80x86 based
systems. 

Other Operating Systems on the Net. 
http://www.cs.arizona.edu/people/bridges/oses.html 

This site has an exhaustive list of other free operating systems as well as
a few 
links to other free operating systems pages. 

                                                                            




From cmcmanis at freegate.com  Tue Dec  8 11:13:48 1998
From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005
Subject: (Linux != UNIX) (Was Re: OT HP Vectra Networking)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <4.1.19981208090743.00b13670@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>

At 09:39 PM 12/7/98 -0500, Max (in a male persona :-) wrote:
>I mean UNIX in general. I consider Linux and UNIX to be similar enough to
>say that what I am running right now is as directly descended from
>something that ran 30 years ago on that PDP in Bell Labs (IIRC) as any
>other version of UNIX.

Linux isn't UNIX, and it doesn't have its roots in UNIX any more than, say
CP/M. Linus liked MINIX (which is Tannebaum's version of an operating
system that uses many UNIX concepts) but wanted to make it better and did
so, as a model of things he would like it to do he used SunOS (which by
that time was the SystemV/BSD hybrid that was about as UNIX-like as Mach).
There are also some great archived flame wars between Linus and Andrew.
FreeBSD on the other hand is derived from BSD 4.4, which was derived from
BSD 4.x which was derived from Version 7 which goes back to the PDP-11 in
Bell Labs. It _IS_ UNIX with the proprietary bits excised over a period of
years. It, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and BSDI are all "true" UNIXes, if you care to
be a purist.

Then there are the OSes RTEMS and uCOS, both of which run on x86 machines.

--Chuck



From spc at armigeron.com  Wed Dec  9 11:19:35 1998
From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005
Subject: (Linux != UNIX) (Was Re: OT HP Vectra Networking)
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981208090743.00b13670@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Dec 8, 98 09:13:48 am
Message-ID: <199812091719.MAA02778@armigeron.com>

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From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com  Tue Dec  8 11:48:06 1998
From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981208090743.00b13670@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
Message-ID: 

Hmmm.... Fascinating.

After reading some of the sentiments posted recently, what I'm
hearing is that the price of Altair's is a bubble without
underlying value, that is, they may be somewhat rare but aren't
really great machines, like a Ferarri or whatever, and that
the BASIC software for it wasn't very innovative.

I dunno, maybe there wouldn't be such interest if Micro-soft 
hadn't become the juggernaught it is today, and MITS would have
been relegated to the dustbin of history.

However - I do see it as the 'Model-T' of PERSONAL computing - 
sure everything had been done before but was usually priced
out of the average joe/jane's reach unless they worked in a
research institute or business, in which case they weren't
always allowed free reign to do whatever they wanted.

Also the Altair was a very open hardware platform, you had
the schematics, you got the educational experience of 
actually building and usually repairing it; the more
experienced could add just about anything they could dream
of plus all the published construction articles one could
build on their kitchen table without applying for a govt.
research grant.

I'll yield the floor now but more later  ;O


	Chuck
	cswiger@widomaker.com




From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Tue Dec  8 14:15:37 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005
Subject: FSOT: Z-80 Daignostic/Emulator
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981208141537.307f7794@intellistar.net>

More house cleaning.  I dug out a model EM-180B Z-80 Diagnostic/Emulator
made by Applied MicroSystems.  It appears to be developement system for
Z-80s. It says has 64K of RAM. It has a RS-232 port and a socket for a
target EPROM. It also has a hex keybaord and keys for setting breakpoints,
memory addresses, I/O address, (data) Store, examine, decrement and
increment, single step, run, etc.  The LED display shows the adress and
data and the various CPU status bits and the machine cycle states. It
powers up but the 1 and 3 keys no longer spring back like they should. It's
about 12" square and 4" high and runs on 110 VAC. I know nothing else about
this thing. If anyone wants it contact me directly.

  Joe



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Tue Dec  8 14:17:39 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005
Subject: FSOT: Commodore GPIB cable.
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981208141739.2ecf7cce@intellistar.net>

Commodore marked cable with a card edge connector on one end and a
male/female GPIB connectors on the other. Contact me if interested.

  Joe



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Tue Dec  8 14:20:53 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005
Subject: FSOT: Sharp CE-126P printer and Cassette interface.
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981208142053.2ecf52d4@intellistar.net>

Found while house cleaning. Appears to be for one of those small BASIC
handheld computers.  In very good condition but I have no way to test it.
Contact me directly if you're interested in it.

   Joe



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Tue Dec  8 12:24:19 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005
Subject: Linux Q's
In-Reply-To: <366D0E49.F1FBAB2A@bigfoot.com>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote:

> The Unix jumper is on some Intel desktop 386DX machines I have, not
> PS/2 machines that I've ever seen (there may be though). The Intel
> units are very nicely shaped and very durable, as evidenced by the
> sore back I got from moving them around the other day - and I don't
> already have a bad back.

FYI, some BIOS' also have an option for Unix or OS/2 in the setup.  I have
no idea what these settings would effect.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Tue Dec  8 12:30:34 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005
Subject: Scanning Fiche
In-Reply-To: <199812081201.MAA14432@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Hans Franke wrote:

> Yesterday I tried a similar way as described above. I took a sheet
> of Butterbrotpapier (sorry, I dont know any translation, its a kind
> of semitransparent paper used to cover sandwitches - Butterbrote :)

Wax paper.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Tue Dec  8 14:56:00 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005
Subject: FYI  HP-HIL Re: OT HP vectra networking
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.1.16.19981206233409.4f879cec@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981208145600.2ecffd62@intellistar.net>

At 07:22 PM 12/7/98 +0000, you wrote:
>> >  No, the two dots tells you which end of the HP_HIL cable to plug into
>> that port. They have nothing to do with how many things you can connect to
>> the port. The two ends of the cables are different electrically but the
>
>IIRC they're simply mirror images of each other. But the plugs are 
>slightly different so you can't plug the cable into the wrong socket anyway.

   I haven't tried it but that's not what HP says.
>
>> same physically. You have to be sure and match the number of dots on the
>> socket with the number of dots on the plug that you plug into it. Most of
>
>Cables have 1 dot at one end and 2 dots at the other. 

   Yes, you have to match the dot(s) on the cable connector with the dot(s)
on the socket.
>
>> the HIL devices have two ports, one that goes back to the computer (maybe
>
>The exception to this is computers, which are generally one end of the 
>chain and things like mice with a built-in cable with only one plug on 
>it. So for example you'd start at the computer, cable to the keyboard 
>then from there to a digitising tablet and then a mouse on the end of the 
>chain.
>
>> you like on the port. I think the only limitaion is the amount of power
>
>I thought there was an addressing limitation (8 devices? 32 devices?) but 
>I would have to find my HP-HIL spec to be sure.

  I think there is an addressing limitation but HP says that you'll usually
run into the  power limitation first.  I'm not sure how you're supposed to
know when you do unless the whole system chokes.
>
>> >  It's recognized automaticly but some software won't use it. For example,
>> there's only one piece of software for the HP 150 Touch Screen II that will
>> use the mouse. I expect the newer HP-UX software will make more use of it.
>
>MS-windows by any chance? 

   I don't know. I would think it would work with Windows BUT I was told
that DrawPerfect was the only program that used the mouse.  I tried the
rodent on my 150-II with several other programs and none of them (including
PAM) used it. I have MS Windows for the 150 but one of the disks is bad so
I haven't been able to install it.

>I'm pretty sure that can use the HP-HIL mouse 
>on a 150-II.

  Yes, but not the standard 150. The TS-II uses the HP_HIL devices, the 150
uses a non-standard keyboard.

   Joe
>
>-tony
>
>



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Tue Dec  8 15:42:41 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005
Subject: Byte Index. WAS Re: Finished posting 8800b Manual/Next
In-Reply-To: 
References: <00d301be2256$6a9c1ba0$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981208154241.2dc76646@intellistar.net>

Doug,

  I might be able to save you some work. I have an original copy of Byte's
Keyterm index dated 1977. It has an index by subject to all the Byte
articles from Sept 75 through Dec 1976, Interface Age articles from Dec 75
through Dec 76 and HamRadio Magazine from March 69 through Dec 76.  It's 78
long.

   Joe


At 10:00 PM 12/7/98 -0600, Doug wrote:
>
>If you, or anybody else, wants to collaborate on a project like this,
>there's already several thousand BYTE's that have been indexed in BibTex
>format.  I plan (OK, hope) to automate entry and searching of this and
>similar indices.  Currently the coverage of material of interest to this 
>group (like early BYTEs) is pretty thin.
>
>Check out Nelson H. F. Beebe's web site for a sense of what's been done




From yowza at yowza.com  Tue Dec  8 14:14:05 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:00 2005
Subject: Indexing Byte
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981208083608.00f08840@pc>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, John Foust wrote:

> Apart from an index of Byte or other old magazines, wouldn't it be
> more interesting to scan the actual pages?  If I could buy a DVD
> with the first ten years, I could at least decimate my piles in
> the basement.  The article compendiums that are offered for Byte,
> DDJ, etc. are interesting, but so are the ads, and they aren't included.

Agreed, but I'd be happy just knowing which issue contains what at this
point.  Besides, viewing digital copies of either ads or articles just
isn't the same as fingering through one of those light-weight
random-access mags.  (And I think BYTE's post-1993 CDized mags include
ads, but who cares about anything after 1993?)


-- Doug



From yowza at yowza.com  Tue Dec  8 14:31:42 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: Dr. Dobbs..
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I took a quick look at the first issues of DDJ, and the stuff that looks
like it might be of interest to Altair owners is:

Feb 1976 reprint of May 1975 PCC, Steve Dompier's "Music of a Sort", 2pp

A couple of letters in the March 1976 issue that make references to MITS
recall of the 8K RAM board and of their poor docs, 2pp

[Cool, the June 1976 issue has a nice looking 6502 S-100 SBC from Western
Data Systems]

[Interesting, there's an Aug 1976 article that talks about how stable CP/M
has been for the last two years.  What did he write it for in 1974?  An
Intellec?]

Oct 1976, Pertec buys iCom, 1p.

Nov 1976, Jef Raskin on the Poly-88 where he compares it the the Altair
and IMSAI, 3pp.

That's about it in 1976 -- very little about the Altair, and *nothing*
about Microsoft BASIC (odd for a programming journal, but not surprising
given their association with Tiny BASIC, I suppose). 

Reading through this stuff, I'm reminded that I don't have copies of the
earlier PCC stuff or any of the earlier club newsletters.  Photocopy 
trades, anyone?

-- Doug



From yowza at yowza.com  Tue Dec  8 14:43:07 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: (Linux != UNIX) (Was Re: OT HP Vectra Networking)
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981208090743.00b13670@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Chuck McManis wrote:

> Linux isn't UNIX [...]

My point was that words change their meaning.  Unix isn't Unix anymore. 
For that matter, Linux != Linux.  When most people talk about Linux, do
you think they're talking about a kernel?  I read an interview of Richard
Stallman in which he whined a bit about how the collection of GNU stuff
combined with a Linux kernel is called "Linux."  There's probably more GNU
code than Linus code in any given Linux distribution.

-- Doug



From jfoust at threedee.com  Tue Dec  8 14:48:37 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: (Linux != UNIX)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4.1.19981208090743.00b13670@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981208144837.00ea7a20@pc>

At 02:43 PM 12/8/98 -0600, Doug Yowza wrote:
>I read an interview of Richard
>Stallman in which he whined a bit about how the collection of GNU stuff
>combined with a Linux kernel is called "Linux."  There's probably more GNU
>code than Linus code in any given Linux distribution.

RMS whining?  Almost as bad as his singing voice.  He was only
whining because he wants a share of the Linux spotlight.  Hmm,
the MacArthur grant money must've run out by now.

- John



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Tue Dec  8 14:53:31 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: Dr. Dobbs..
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:

> [Interesting, there's an Aug 1976 article that talks about how stable CP/M
> has been for the last two years.  What did he write it for in 1974?  An
> Intellec?]
> 

Yes.

> Reading through this stuff, I'm reminded that I don't have copies of the
> earlier PCC stuff or any of the earlier club newsletters.  Photocopy 
> trades, anyone?

I need copies of the PCC newsletter and volume 1 of the Homebrew Computer
Club newsletter (I have Vol 2- the end).

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Tue Dec  8 15:15:10 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: Going OT... Re: (Linux != UNIX)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981208144837.00ea7a20@pc>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, John Foust wrote:

> RMS whining?  Almost as bad as his singing voice.  He was only
> whining because he wants a share of the Linux spotlight.  Hmm,
> the MacArthur grant money must've run out by now.

Speaking of singing, ever notice how Robert Cringely in his PBS specials
goes out of his way to demonstrate that he can't sing?  There were two
spots in the recent Internet history special where he was singing...in the
beginning when he was trying to do the national anthem at a ballpark, and
then when he was driving on highway 101 to San Jose.  What's up with
THAT!?

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Tue Dec  8 15:23:34 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: Going OT... Re: (Linux != UNIX)
Message-ID: <001b01be22f1$0845afc0$9b021a26@maxeskin>

He's also tried to sing in Triumph of the Nerds I _think_ and I know he
tried to sing the Beverly Hillbillies song in Plane Crazy. Have you checked
his faq on pbs.org?
>  What's up with THAT!?
>
>Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail:
dastar@siconic.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>Always being hassled by the man.
>
>                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
>                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
>                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]
>



From cmcmanis at freegate.com  Tue Dec  8 15:58:22 1998
From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: Dr. Dobbs..
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <4.1.19981208135746.00b77a60@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>

Dale Luck has PCC newspaper vol1 number 1. It was a hoot to read through!
--Chuck





From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec  8 12:39:52 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: VAX 11/780 memory diagnostic floppy
In-Reply-To:  from "Stan Sieler" at Dec 7, 98 07:23:55 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec  8 12:56:05 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: HP Vectra networking (26 days OT)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19981208082118.00962d80@popserver.lle.rochester.edu> from "Ken Marshall" at Dec 8, 98 08:21:19 am
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec  8 13:42:21 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
In-Reply-To:  from "cswiger" at Dec 8, 98 12:48:06 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec  8 13:26:44 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: WHOOPEE!
In-Reply-To: <01be22be$939ca5c0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> from "Computer Room Internet Cafe" at Dec 9, 98 01:52:32 am
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From kmar at lle.rochester.edu  Tue Dec  8 16:37:44 1998
From: kmar at lle.rochester.edu (Ken Marshall)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: HP Vectra networking (26 days OT)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19981208173744.00906710@popserver.lle.rochester.edu>

At 06:56 PM 12/8/98 +0000, you wrote:
>> I also have HP-IL here, but that's used to interface a gas chromatograph
>> /mass spectrometer to a HP 9000 series workstation. I know of others here
>> that have used HP-IL for other HP systems, but I've never seen it on HP
PC's.
>
>HP-IL is somewhat unconventional for that. HPIB (similar to GPIB or 
>IEEE488) is much more common for linking up test gear, etc.

Many of HP's late 70's and 80's analytical instrumentation used HP-IL
extensively to control instruments and sampling accessories, such as
autosamplers. Indeed, the connection to the 9000 series for the GC part of
the system is to the system HP-IB bus via a 82169A HP-IL to HP-IB
interface. The mass spectrometer itself is directly connected to the HP-IB
bus. Newer HP analytical equipment generally uses only HP-IB .

 

>
>I don't know if an HP150 counts as an HP PC (HP seemed to think so in the 
>manuals), but I have a card in mine with a parallel port and an HP-IL 
>port on it. I also have software to make the HP-150 emulate an HP-IL disk 
>drive so I can save files from my calculators.
>
>HP-IL is more common on HP calculators, like the HP75, HP71 and HP41 series.
>
>-tony
>
>
>
Kenneth L. Marshall
Research Engineer, Optical Materials
Laboratory for Laser Energetics
University of Rochester
250 East River Road
Rochester, NY 14623
Phone:(716)-275-8247
Fax:  (716)-275-5960


From gram at cnct.com  Tue Dec  8 16:46:15 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: OT HP vectra networking
References: <199812071902.LAA10916@oa.ptloma.edu> 
Message-ID: <366DAC37.3352513B@cnct.com>

Athanasios Kotsenos wrote:

> Speaking of mice, I totally freaked out when I found out that 'PC's needed
> *drivers* - being used to Amigas, Apples and Ataris. Of course all those
> systems need some way of telling the computer how to communicate with
> anything they are connected to - but, they put it discretely somewhere in
> the operating system or in the hardware.

With Amigas, Apples and Ataris, there is a very limited collection
of such peripherals available, since the drivers discretely _in_ the
operating system is the whole set.  Windows not actually being an
operating system, attaching external devices isn't that difficult, at
least during a week that Microsoft is feeling cooperative.  And Intel.
Linux being a real operating system built from the ground to take
extensions, the device drivers have proper attachments in the kernel.
Oh, and kernel source code -- that does help.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Tue Dec  8 16:41:59 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: WHOOPEE!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:

> That's roughly how it is in the UK at the moment. All devices 'directly 
> or indirectly connected' to the phone system have to be approved. This 
> includes acoustic couplers, BTW, which have to be unable to send certain 
> tones down the line.

Why?  Is the UK public network still using in-band signaling?  We can't
blue box in the states anymore.  Most of the switches nationwide have been
upgraded to digital, out-of-band signaling.


Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From gram at cnct.com  Tue Dec  8 16:53:54 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: Linux Q's
References: <199812081201.MAA14427@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <366DAE02.4EB43B8A@cnct.com>

Hans Franke wrote:

> low. Try it - or read the MCA HOWTO (cheating). If you take

Reading the HOWTOs is not cheating.  It's the best thing that the
free software movement come out with since the CopyLeft.  (Linux
documentation -- the Networking materials especially -- is better
than anything I've ever gotten from vendors, and helped me get
"commercial" software working despite tech support's best efforts).
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From gram at cnct.com  Tue Dec  8 17:23:29 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: (Linux != UNIX) (Was Re: OT HP Vectra Networking)
References: 
Message-ID: <366DB4F1.51E9C32@cnct.com>

Doug Yowza wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Chuck McManis wrote:
> 
> > Linux isn't UNIX [...]
> 
> My point was that words change their meaning.  Unix isn't Unix anymore.
> For that matter, Linux != Linux.  When most people talk about Linux, do
> you think they're talking about a kernel?  I read an interview of Richard
> Stallman in which he whined a bit about how the collection of GNU stuff
> combined with a Linux kernel is called "Linux."  There's probably more GNU
> code than Linus code in any given Linux distribution.

Yup. Linux Ain't Unix.  It Ain't Minix.  It ain't GNU, though it uses
Stallman's Copyleft.  Yes, every Linux distribution uses gagloads of
GNU material, properly attributed, all source available, and Stallman
has nothing to complain about except that people have been making
money selling free software.  (That's free as in something other than
the price -- Open Source).
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From yowza at yowza.com  Tue Dec  8 17:34:43 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: (Linux != UNIX) (Was Re: OT HP Vectra Networking)
In-Reply-To: <366DB4F1.51E9C32@cnct.com>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:

> Yup. Linux Ain't Unix.  It Ain't Minix.  It ain't GNU, though it uses
> Stallman's Copyleft.  Yes, every Linux distribution uses gagloads of
> GNU material, properly attributed, all source available, and Stallman
> has nothing to complain about except that people have been making
> money selling free software.  (That's free as in something other than
> the price -- Open Source).

AFAIK, Stallman never had a problem with people selling "free" software,
or making money from it in other ways such as Cygnus support.  FSF used to
make money themselves by selling tapes or CD-ROMs with hefty margins.
They still offer "deluxe" packages for $5K and CD-ROMs for $240 to corps
and $60 to peons, but I doubt they sell very well.

According to the interview I read (from 1996), Stallman considers Linux to
be the fullfillment of his mission to make Unix free, but he might be a
bit unhappy that Linus is seen as the creator of something that couldn't
have been pulled off without his help.  Linux would be a sorry joke
without GNU.

-- Doug




From gram at cnct.com  Tue Dec  8 17:41:15 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
References: 
Message-ID: <366DB91B.CDFFAE5D@cnct.com>

cswiger wrote:
> 
> Hmmm.... Fascinating.
> 
> After reading some of the sentiments posted recently, what I'm
> hearing is that the price of Altair's is a bubble without
> underlying value, that is, they may be somewhat rare but aren't
> really great machines, like a Ferarri or whatever, and that
> the BASIC software for it wasn't very innovative.
> 
> I dunno, maybe there wouldn't be such interest if Micro-soft
> hadn't become the juggernaught it is today, and MITS would have
> been relegated to the dustbin of history.
> 
> However - I do see it as the 'Model-T' of PERSONAL computing -
> sure everything had been done before but was usually priced
> out of the average joe/jane's reach unless they worked in a
> research institute or business, in which case they weren't
> always allowed free reign to do whatever they wanted.

The Model-T systems of computers were the TRS-80, the Apple-2 and
(hate to say it) the Pet.  Something that could be bought by a
common citizen and made to work -- the computer buyer didn't have
to be a serious programmer, the buyer of a Ford T didn't have to
be a full-time mechanic.  While I know there were MITS-equivalent
automobile projects published a century ago, none of the names
seem to stand out.  Thinking on it, the Ford Model A was the
equivalent of a TRS-80 Model One, the Model T was the equivalent
of a Model 3.  The Volkswagen was the equivalent of an IBM PC,
right down to the fascist overseers of the design.  (For Ferarri
parallels, go for Cromemco or Xerox).
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com  Tue Dec  8 17:54:53 1998
From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: WHOOPEE!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <13410237533.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>

[Can't blue box in the US anymore]

Ehehehe.... Do you know this from experience?
Has anyone here actually done this?  I once tried recording the payhone
quarter tones, but it didn't work.  Jeff once was nearly arrested for
fixing a payphone - He was stranded at a wal-mart, the handset cord had been
severed, so he got a toolkit fron his truck and went to work.
The police and two Ameritech linemen showed up - The police wanted to haul
him off, but the linemen said what he did was fine and so he didn't get
in trouble.
-------


From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Tue Dec  8 17:53:04 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: (Linux != UNIX) (Was Re: OT HP Networking)
In-Reply-To: <199812082340.SAA00374@localhost>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 8 Dec 1998 gram@cnct.com wrote:
> Yup. Linux Ain't Unix.  It Ain't Minix.  It ain't GNU, though it uses
> Stallman's Copyleft.  Yes, every Linux distribution uses gagloads of
> GNU material, properly attributed, all source available, and Stallman
> has nothing to complain about except that people have been making
> money selling free software.  (That's free as in something other than
> the price -- Open Source).

Why would he complain about that? I understand it may be against his
philosophy, and RedHat-like products may not be the best examples of Linux
(KDE is probably the worst example of Linux though it's getting shipped
with every major distribution...) but how does he expect GNU software to
get distributed? Someone has to make money along the line...what we need
is to get back to the old days when people shared tips on how to speed up
their computers by soldering in a couple of diodes. In those days, it
wasn't as necessary to ruin software in order to distribute it. I got to
use dial-up bulletin board systems for about three years, and I liked them
more than the commercial internet, which killed these off, and harmed the
sort of scientific-academic-university spirit that was previously more
common among computer users.


----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU  Tue Dec  8 18:06:38 1998
From: Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU (Marion Bates)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: WHOOPEE!
Message-ID: <12288839@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU>

--- "Daniel A. Seagraves" wrote:
[Can't blue box in the US anymore]

Ehehehe.... Do you know this from experience?
Has anyone here actually done this? I once tried recording the payhone
quarter tones, but it didn't work. 
--- end of quote ---

Quarter tones -- that's red box territory, not blue box. Red boxing IS still possible today, though not with most COCOT's. Bell/Nynex (well, they're the same now, aren't they?) all happily respond to red box tones. But, operators sure don't! 

(actual quote: "I can't accept that, I need REAL money.")  Hee hee...

-- MB


From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Tue Dec  8 18:12:47 1998
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: Scanning Fiche
In-Reply-To: "Hans Franke" 
        "Re: Scanning Fiche" (Dec  8, 13:01)
References:  
	<199812081201.MAA14432@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <9812090012.ZM6026@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Dec 8, 13:01, Hans Franke wrote:

> Yesterday I tried a similar way as described above. I took a sheet
> of Butterbrotpapier (sorry, I dont know any translation, its a kind
> of semitransparent paper used to cover sandwitches - Butterbrote :)

"greaseproof" paper.  A treated but not waxed paper, rather like thin
tracing paper.  In fact, kids here often use it as tracing paper.

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York


From yowza at yowza.com  Tue Dec  8 18:13:20 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, cswiger wrote:

> However - I do see it as the 'Model-T' of PERSONAL computing - sure
> everything had been done before but was usually priced out of the
> average joe/jane's reach unless they worked in a research institute or
> business, in which case they weren't always allowed free reign to do
> whatever they wanted. 

As you probably know, the Scelbi-8H came well before the Altair and had a
similar price.  But the Altair got a cover story in Popular Electronics,
and the Scelbi didn't.  Of course, the Mark-8 got an even earlier cover
story in Radio Electronics, but you couldn't buy a kit like you could with
the Altair.

And don't forget that once you added memory, storage, and a TTY to your
Altair, you were talking Big Bucks, and something like an HP 9830 (1972)
starts to look like a very attractive alternative (assuming you knew they
existed -- HP didn't run ads in Popular Electronics, for example).

I think the infatuation with the Altair today is due to reporters and
popular writers repeating each other over and over that the Altair was
"the first personal computer", which is nonsense.  Low-priced personal
computers for education and experimentation have been available since 1950
or so.  They were basically toys, but so was the Altair when it came out.

I don't even buy the idea that the Altair started the Hobbyist Movement.
It seems there were quite a few newsletters and computer clubs that
pre-dated the Altair, and they discussed both 8008-based machines and
surplus DEC stuff.

> Also the Altair was a very open hardware platform, you had the
> schematics, you got the educational experience of actually building and
> usually repairing it; the more experienced could add just about anything
> they could dream of plus all the published construction articles one
> could build on their kitchen table without applying for a govt. 
> research grant.

Yes, I think accessibility was the key.  That's why the Altair bus was so
quickly cloned, and it's probably also why a weenie like Gates latched
onto the machine as a target for his "quality software".

-- Doug



From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com  Tue Dec  8 18:20:40 1998
From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: WHOOPEE!
In-Reply-To: <12288839@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU>
Message-ID: <13410242227.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>

[Recording quarter tones is a red box]
I know that.

In the payphone next to SSI, you don't even need to do this:  Just do
this:

1.	Pick up payphone, dial 4-1-1.
2.	Payphone sez, "Welcome to the Ameritech Automated Directory Service"
3.	Push 0.
4.	You'll get an operator.  Give her city, state, name...
5.	She'll forward you to a computer that says something along the lines of
	"This number can be automagically connected for $.15"
6.	Push 1
7.	Phone sez, "To bill this call and service to the number you are speaking
	from, push X".  Push X.
8.	You're done.

Oh, and I found this out by ACCIDENT.  It may or may not work in your area.
I'd be interested in knowing if it does.

Another note:  The phone in question here was right next door to the CO.
I could have walked over and told them about this.  I doubt this will work
outside of Ameritech territory.

A third note (because my boss is standing over my shoulder):
I am not responsible for (ab)uses of this information!  This is for
educational purposes only.  Blah blah blah lawyers sue blah sue sue :)
-------


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec  8 17:19:58 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: FYI  HP-HIL Re: OT HP vectra networking
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981208145600.2ecffd62@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Dec 8, 98 02:56:00 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec  8 17:22:21 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: Dr. Dobbs..
In-Reply-To:  from "Doug Yowza" at Dec 8, 98 02:31:42 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec  8 17:27:29 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: WHOOPEE!
In-Reply-To:  from "Sam Ismail" at Dec 8, 98 02:41:59 pm
Message-ID: 

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From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Tue Dec  8 18:42:03 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: OT stories about phone phreaking
In-Reply-To: <13410237533.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote:

> Ehehehe.... Do you know this from experience?

No.  By the time I got heavy into phreaking ESS was a stark reality and
long gone were the days of the analog CO switch.  Where I used to live, we
had one of the last StepByStep switches in the country.  They swapped it
out with an AT&T 5ESS a few months after I started toying with the phone
system.  I did manage to get pieces of the old switch and they're still in
my dad's barn.  I did manage to get access to the 5ESS but PacBell found
out about it and they weren't terribly amused.

> Has anyone here actually done this?  I once tried recording the payhone
> quarter tones, but it didn't work.  Jeff once was nearly arrested for

Recording the quarter tones works as long as they are loud enough coming
out of the phone and you have a good recorder with fresh batteries.  The
playback must be within 5% tolerance of the recording.  It still works on
a good number of payphones but after the Radio Shack touch tone dialer mod
article came out in the Summer 1990 issue of 2600 every teenager in
America was now walking around with the most proliferate toll fraud device
in the history of telecom and the telephone company eventually found a way
to filter the quarter tones from the mouthpiece albeit several years
later.  I remember when my friend and I first built ours we called a bank
in Japan.  It was like $16 dollars in quarters.  The operator must've
thought we were wacky.

Nowadays, any Bell payphone that's been upgraded for hearing-aid
compatibilty also got the upgrade that thwarts the "red box" (any device
which makes quarter tones).  Of course, this trick never worked on the
privately owned payphones (COCOTs) since they didn't use Bell's ACTS
(Automated Coin Toll System) computer for billing, but rather have
internal coin detection mechanisms and databases for rating calls.

You can still find payphones that the red box will work on but its getting
harder all the time.

> fixing a payphone - He was stranded at a wal-mart, the handset cord had been
> severed, so he got a toolkit fron his truck and went to work.
> The police and two Ameritech linemen showed up - The police wanted to haul
> him off, but the linemen said what he did was fine and so he didn't get
> in trouble.

:)

PS. I wrote a program on my Psion 3a called the "3aBox".  Its basically a
Blue/Red/Green and Silver box all in one.  You select the box you want
from the menu.  For the blue box, you can type in whatever string you want
it to outpulse, for instance K415121S (K = Key pulse, S = Start) and then
hit enter.  It then plays the tones out the speaker.  The Red box has a
menu that lets you select quarter/dime/nickel.  The Green box gives you a
menu that lets you select Coin Return, Coin Collect, Ringback and Operator
Release.  And the silver box is just a DTMF dialer.

If you're interested in this program, e-mail me and I'll send you the
source.  You'll need a serial link to upload it to your Psion.  It should
also work on the series 3c, and maybe the Series 5, but I haven't gotten a
5 yet so I don't know for sure.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From cmcmanis at freegate.com  Tue Dec  8 18:45:01 1998
From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: OT: Free Software (Was Re: (Linux != UNIX) (Was Re: OT HP
  Networking))
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812082340.SAA00374@localhost>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981208164020.00b919f0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>

At 06:53 PM 12/8/98 -0500, Max wrote:
>Why would he complain about that?

Because Richard Stallman's goal with GNU, and the associated legal verbiage
is to force all software to be free and make it illegal (at least in the
contract law sense) to make money on selling software. He espouses as much
if you ask him. He has railed in many forums, the latest I read was in a
crypto forum, on why this is, and why he has no sympathy for people who
feel otherwise. In his words "I have nothing against people who sell
software, and they should have nothing against me for forbidding them from
using my software in the software they sell."

--Chuck



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec  8 18:44:39 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
In-Reply-To:  from "Doug Yowza" at Dec 8, 98 06:13:20 pm
Message-ID: 

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From yowza at yowza.com  Tue Dec  8 18:48:09 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: Dr. Dobbs..
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:

> Of course, to tie in the other Altair thread, the Intellec, for all it 
> was the first CP/M machine, is nowhere near as valuable as an Altair...

It's probably more valuable than an Altair, but less expensive :-)

We can fix that, though.  Just get Robert X. Cringley to do a piece on the
*real* early microcomputers that came directly out of Intel, and watch the
price sky-rocket....

-- Doug



From brett at xnet.com  Tue Dec  8 18:53:37 1998
From: brett at xnet.com (Brett Crapser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: Dr. Dobbs..
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:
> Yes, AFAIK it was an Intellec something-or-other. The MDS800 cbios 
> listing is the one included with 'generic' CP/M kits.

Yup

> Of course, to tie in the other Altair thread, the Intellec, for all it 
> was the first CP/M machine, is nowhere near as valuable as an Altair...

MINE is!  I love the old BIG Blue (well - it IS kinda blue) Boxes.

BC



From dburrows at netpath.net  Tue Dec  8 18:47:11 1998
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: WHOOPEE!
Message-ID: <025c01be230d$b4646d20$bf281bce@p166>



>[Can't blue box in the US anymore]
>
>Ehehehe.... Do you know this from experience?
>
I notice that no one has admitted to it.  I also hope no one does - when I
was a teenager there was a federal grand jury that was just about blue
boxes - one city away from me.  I would know nothing about 2600 or 700, 900,
1100, 1300, or 1500 Hz tones.:)
Dan



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Tue Dec  8 19:07:19 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: OT phreaking tips
In-Reply-To: <13410242227.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote:

> In the payphone next to SSI, you don't even need to do this:  Just do
> this:
<...> 
> 
> Oh, and I found this out by ACCIDENT.  It may or may not work in your area.
> I'd be interested in knowing if it does.

This "trick" works because you're calling from a privately owned payphone
that is not recognized as such at the phone company.  So they think you're
just calling from a regular business line and allow the call to be billed
to that line.  I do this all the time in hotels and stuff.  It definitely
will NOT work from any Bell phones, and will probably not work with many
other privately owned payphones either as long as they've made sure the
phone company has programmed their line with the appropriate class of
service (a fancy telcom term which is roughly the analog of "attributes"
in the computing realm).

> Another note:  The phone in question here was right next door to the CO.
> I could have walked over and told them about this.  I doubt this will work
> outside of Ameritech territory.

As long as its not an Ameritech phone they could care less.  In fact, they
would probably tell you to have at it.

> A third note (because my boss is standing over my shoulder):
> I am not responsible for (ab)uses of this information!  This is for
> educational purposes only.  Blah blah blah lawyers sue blah sue sue :)

Well, the way the Clinton administration has been pushing, even having
this information in your head is a crime.  That rat bastard.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec  8 19:04:33 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: Dr. Dobbs..
In-Reply-To:  from "Brett Crapser" at Dec 8, 98 06:53:37 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec  8 19:06:00 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: Dr. Dobbs..
In-Reply-To:  from "Doug Yowza" at Dec 8, 98 06:48:09 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Tue Dec  8 19:27:00 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: news on the c64
In-Reply-To:  from "Zane H. Healy" at Dec 7, 98 07:34:43 pm
Message-ID: <199812090127.RAA11780@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From gram at cnct.com  Tue Dec  8 19:28:31 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: (Linux != UNIX) (Was Re: OT HP Networking)
References: 
Message-ID: <366DD23F.81CB4011@cnct.com>

Max Eskin wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 8 Dec 1998 gram@cnct.com wrote:
> > Yup. Linux Ain't Unix.  It Ain't Minix.  It ain't GNU, though it uses
> > Stallman's Copyleft.  Yes, every Linux distribution uses gagloads of
> > GNU material, properly attributed, all source available, and Stallman
> > has nothing to complain about except that people have been making
> > money selling free software.  (That's free as in something other than
> > the price -- Open Source).
> 
> Why would he complain about that? I understand it may be against his
> philosophy, and RedHat-like products may not be the best examples of Linux
> (KDE is probably the worst example of Linux though it's getting shipped
> with every major distribution...) but how does he expect GNU software to
> get distributed? Someone has to make money along the line...what we need
> is to get back to the old days when people shared tips on how to speed up
> their computers by soldering in a couple of diodes. In those days, it
> wasn't as necessary to ruin software in order to distribute it. I got to
> use dial-up bulletin board systems for about three years, and I liked them
> more than the commercial internet, which killed these off, and harmed the
> sort of scientific-academic-university spirit that was previously more
> common among computer users.

The QT toolkit that KDE is based on is now fully open source.  And
it _wasn't_ shipped with RedHat.  If you can name a RedHat module
without open source, I'll eat a source listing.  Aside from CDE, 
Motif, ApplixWare and other things that were commercial or released
with the GNU library license before Linus Torvalds started college,
actually.  A lot of stuff seems to be going open source lately.  And
at least as much information shows up per month on the "commercial"
Internet as happened per decade when it was "free" to 
"scientific-academic-university spirit" users (at taxpayer expense)
-- and most of the previous BBS _owners_ have moved to the Net, even
most of the ones who used to write BBS software and sell it or
give it away.  My BBS calls in the mid-80s tended to cost me $100 or
more per month -- serious beer money -- in "local" calls.  My ISP
subscription is a bit less.  Admittedly the quality of Usenet has
gone downhill since the days when I could manage a full feed -- and
pass it on -- at 1200 baud.

RMS is essentially Trotskyite, he's basing things things on
traditional (failed) economic models.  Stallman grew up in the
heyday of Marxism in American universities, Linus came of age as
European socialism was failing (though you'll have a job
convincing the associated governments of that -- they have guns,
their citizens generally don't).  Linus uses an anarchosyndicalist
model, which works fine.  I prefer the anarchocapitalist model.
Anarchosyndicalists and Anarchocapitalists get along fine as long as
the State stays out of the way.  Marxism is welcome to compete with
those models on the open market -- it works in small communities as
long as they allow the right of pedal franchise.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From rcini at msn.com  Tue Dec  8 19:04:29 1998
From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: Byte Mag Indes (was Finished posting 8800b Manual/Next)
Message-ID: <00c101be2311$be00eb20$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>

On Mon, 7 Dec 1998 22:00:59 -0600 (CST), Doug Yowza  wrote:

>>Oh boy.  I've had a back-burner BYTE index project that I moved forward by
>>almost a millimeter last weekend.  How far along are you on putting
>>together an index?

    This is not a complete indexing project; I don't have the time to do
that.

    I have about 75 or so issues from 1978 to 1987. I'm culling the index
for classic-related articles: reviews, home brewing projects, type-yourself
programs, and the like. I've left out all of the regular "departments" and
generally, the generic articles. As you may know, each Byte magazine had a
particular focus, such as the "Logo" issue, or the "Forth" issue. Some of
these articles made it; some didn't.

    I'm in1982 now, and I have about 200 entries in an Excel spreadsheet.
When I'm done, I'll post my TofC. Eventually, I'd like to make it a DHTML
Web page.

[  Rich Cini/WUGNET
[   ClubWin!/CW7
[   MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
[   Collector of "classic" computers
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/
<================   reply   separator  =================>






From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Tue Dec  8 19:30:01 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: news on the c64
In-Reply-To: <199812080312.UAA05282@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Dec 7, 98 08:12:34 pm
Message-ID: <199812090130.RAA03980@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Tue Dec  8 19:32:08 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: Scanning Fiche
In-Reply-To:  from "Zane H. Healy" at Dec 7, 98 06:14:39 pm
Message-ID: <199812090132.RAA10194@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Tue Dec  8 19:34:11 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: news on the c64
In-Reply-To: <199812090130.RAA03980@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Dec 08, 1998 05:30:01 PM
Message-ID: <199812090134.SAA11114@calico.litterbox.com>

> Yeah, it's amazing how much hardware support is out there. More over, it's
> amazing how many people are buying it. I consider myself a Commodore freak,
> and I basically use a vanilla 128DCR (no REU, no SuperCPU). There are people
> out there who using a trick of the RAMLink unit have 32MB in their machines,
> plus the 65816 SuperCPU, Turbo232 ACIA cartridge, the hard drives, etc. 

Heh.  Scarier still is someone wrote an OS for the 64 that includes an IP stack.

So much for this notion that 8 bit machines can't go on the net. :)   Hey,
now that I have a 64... hmmm... how to get data from my PC to the 64 with
no modem or serial port.. hmmm...

-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Tue Dec  8 19:35:31 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:

> > I think the infatuation with the Altair today is due to reporters and
> > popular writers repeating each other over and over that the Altair was
> > "the first personal computer", which is nonsense.  Low-priced personal
> 
> I think that's _exactly_ the reason. And it's worrying, mainly because 
> history is being massively distorted by this.

Not really.  As long as their are fools like us to set things straight
then the true history of computing will survive.  Interest in computer
history is growing (I see it in this part of the country at least) and
reporters will hopefully become more savvy of the real history of the
microcomputer revolution as they start to write more in depth articles,
rather than the basic re-hashed lame-o story that you always see
(Altair->Apple->IBM->Microsoft).  Also, as more and more computer museums
are established (The Computer Museum History Center over here in Mountain
View finally found a location to build their permanent musuem) and start
getting better funding for research, new texts will be written that go
more into detail about the early days of the microcomputer boom and stuff
that went on before the Altair will start to come to light.  In fact, I
just thought it would be great to make next year's VCF theme "Before the
Altair: The Evolution of the Microcomputer".

> Looking at the UK electronics magazines for the early 1970's, it's clear 
> that there was going to be a homebuilt computer pretty soon. There were 
> designs for analogue machines, assorted robotic projects (mostly, again, 

This is where it comes in handy having old timers like Allison around to
tell us stories of their early days.

Us: Auntie Allison, tell us about the early days of microcomputing.
Allison: Well, in my day, we didn't have these fancy GUIs and Plug n Play.
We had to write our own operating systems!  And we had to haul ASR-33
terminals across bridges just so we could type in our programs.  That is,
if you were lucky enough to find a terminal!  Usually we had to build our
own from lights & switches...

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From allisonp at world.std.com  Tue Dec  8 19:42:28 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
Message-ID: <199812090142.AA08749@world.std.com>

< > After reading some of the sentiments posted recently, what I'm
< > hearing is that the price of Altair's is a bubble without
< > underlying value, that is, they may be somewhat rare but aren't
< > really great machines, like a Ferarri or whatever, and that
< > the BASIC software for it wasn't very innovative.
< 
< 
< That's basically my view.

Same here.  Historically important but generally poor design.

I'd say machines like the NorthStar Horizon, CCS 2xxx series and 
CompuPro systems did more to put systems in business and other non 
hobby applications.  I have several old enough to vote and they still 
run well.

< > Also the Altair was a very open hardware platform, you had
< > the schematics, you got the educational experience of 

No one would have bought it without!  Assembling it would have been far 
harder too!




From DaveyGF at aol.com  Tue Dec  8 19:29:56 1998
From: DaveyGF at aol.com (DaveyGF@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: Dr. Dobbs..
Message-ID: 

Doug,

I didn't make any claims that MITS calculator was on par with HP.

David


From eric at brouhaha.com  Tue Dec  8 19:45:04 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: (Linux != UNIX) (Was Re: OT HP Networking)
In-Reply-To: <366DD23F.81CB4011@cnct.com> (message from Ward Donald Griffiths
	III on Tue, 08 Dec 1998 20:28:31 -0500)
References:  <366DD23F.81CB4011@cnct.com>
Message-ID: <19981209014504.13334.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Ward Donald Griffiths III  wrote:
> If you can name a RedHat module
> without open source, I'll eat a source listing.

Netscape Navigator
Netscape Communicator
RealAudio player
BRU
Accelerated-X
Red Baron

How big a source listing are you willing to eat?  Does it have to be on
greenbar paper, or will an A-size laser-printed listing do?


From yowza at yowza.com  Tue Dec  8 19:50:12 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Sam Ismail wrote:

> In fact, I just thought it would be great to make next year's VCF theme
> "Before the Altair: The Evolution of the Microcomputer". 

I thought that was this year's theme.  BTW, define microcomputer, so we
can argue about which was first (wait, by your definition, the F14 was
the first microcomputer, right? :-)

If you drop "microcomputer" out of your theme, we might acutally be able
to exhibit some theme machines.

-- Doug



From DaveyGF at aol.com  Tue Dec  8 19:36:47 1998
From: DaveyGF at aol.com (DaveyGF@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: New Altair Computers website!
Message-ID: 

The $12,000 bid DID actually happen.  She didn't win the auction.  I think no
one reached that particular auction price since the reserve was not met.  

Anyways, its just a way to hype my website.. Heheh.

Daivd


From yowza at yowza.com  Tue Dec  8 19:59:59 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: Dr. Dobbs..
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 8 Dec 1998 DaveyGF@aol.com wrote:

> I didn't make any claims that MITS calculator was on par with HP.

Sorry, reading more closely, I see you were just posting an ad from ebay:

<< 
This extremely rare calculator has a red LED display and the usual four
functions (+, -, *, and /) as well as square root, 1/x, x^2, percent, and
memory keys. It was marketed about the same time that Hewlett Packard got
into the business.
>>

The calc was made in the 70's and HP got into the calc biz in the 60's, so
it's factually wrong, and including HP in the sentence seems to be a
non-sequitur.

By 1974, probably close to when the MITS calc was made, HP had introduced
the HP65, which was basically a hand-held computer, and in a league of its
own (my first "computer").

-- Doug



From gareth.knight2 at which.net  Tue Dec  8 19:58:52 1998
From: gareth.knight2 at which.net (Gareth Knight)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:01 2005
Subject: x86 OS's
Message-ID: <02e101be2318$146b0da0$6865a8c2@gareth.knight2>

Hans Franke wrote:
>The Web-Disk runs perfectly on a 8 MB machine and I can't find any
>information to have 640K plus 8MB, which would be a rather unusual
>configuration for a PC, since you need a 12 SIMM slot board with
>8x1MB + 4x256K, And 256 KB SIMs have been only a very short
>time (back in the age of '286es and '386es) widely available.


What type of machine are you trying to boot it on? I've tried to run in on a
Compaq 486 33MHz with 8Mb. It goes through the booting process until it
reachs 100% and then states that the machine does not have enough memory to
run. Of course I have no idea about PC memory, the Amiga appears simple
compared to a PC :)

Also, the Compaq has a weird non-standard interface that connects the 3.5
IDE hard drive to the board. Does anyone know where you can find these type
of connectors in the UK. I've tried Compaq but they say that they haven't
had any of these for years.
--
Gareth Knight
Amiga Interactive Guide | ICQ No. 24185856
   http://welcome.to/aig    | "Shine on your star"




From yowza at yowza.com  Tue Dec  8 20:03:37 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: New Altair Computers website!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 8 Dec 1998 DaveyGF@aol.com wrote:

> The $12,000 bid DID actually happen.  She didn't win the auction.  I think no
> one reached that particular auction price since the reserve was not met.  

I asked the seller about that auction shortly after it ended.  Believe me,
he was ready and willing to sell to either of the top two bidders for
their bids, and both bidders backed out.

I think the highest recorded sale for an Altair was around $5000, which is
still absurd, but only by an order of magnitude or so.

-- Doug



From gram at cnct.com  Tue Dec  8 20:15:11 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
References: <199812090142.AA08749@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <366DDD2F.87EE5A3C@cnct.com>

Allison J Parent wrote:
> 
> < > After reading some of the sentiments posted recently, what I'm
> < > hearing is that the price of Altair's is a bubble without
> < > underlying value, that is, they may be somewhat rare but aren't
> < > really great machines, like a Ferarri or whatever, and that
> < > the BASIC software for it wasn't very innovative.
> <
> <
> < That's basically my view.
> 
> Same here.  Historically important but generally poor design.
> 
> I'd say machines like the NorthStar Horizon, CCS 2xxx series and
> CompuPro systems did more to put systems in business and other non
> hobby applications.  I have several old enough to vote and they still
> run well.

Hell, Allison, your Horizon should be about old enough to drink.
Legally, if silicon-based lifeforms had rights, and could get ID.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From DaveyGF at aol.com  Tue Dec  8 19:38:49 1998
From: DaveyGF at aol.com (DaveyGF@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
Message-ID: <11f5582.366dd4a9@aol.com>

Don't forget the S-100 bus was really invented at MITS on the Altair.


From mpsayler at zen.as.utexas.edu  Tue Dec  8 20:22:38 1998
From: mpsayler at zen.as.utexas.edu (Matthew Sayler)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Scanning Fiche
In-Reply-To: <199812090132.RAA10194@oa.ptloma.edu>; from Cameron Kaiser on Tue, Dec 08, 1998 at 05:32:08PM -0800
References:  <199812090132.RAA10194@oa.ptloma.edu>
Message-ID: <19981208202238.02081@zen.as.utexas.edu>

I remember back in '98 when Cameron Kaiser wrote:
> ::Not to bash the //gs, but I'm not sure it has the horsepower to view PDF
> ::files.  I've seen how long it can take on a 486, and even on something like
> ::my 604e/180, it can take quite a while.  It isn't exactly a fast format.
> 
> Screw rendering it -- I just want to read the bloody thing. If I can crack
> the format, all the 64 will be doing is turning it into PETSCII.

Watch out--some pdf's are just 75-100dpi images of the page.  This
seems to be especially common for old data sheets and the like 
upgraded to the "new" system.

		Matt

-- 
/* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler@zen.as.utexas.edu -- atwork?astronomy:cs
   http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler   -- (512)471-7450
   Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */


From amirault at epix.net  Tue Dec  8 20:26:09 1998
From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: IBM PCjr
References: <18d71538.366c9fbf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <366DDFC1.FCDDE2CD@epix.net>

Superdave,
  I will boot the computer tomorrow and write down the errors. As far as the SCSI
cards go I think I can still get a few @ PC Enterprises in Belmar, N.J.

 I just want to get the CDROM working, doesn't matter to me if I have any disks to
use now as I will try to find some DOS based CD's, I hope they exist.

SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote:

> a PCjr version of a scsi card? if so, that's certainly a rarity! there wont be
> much you can do with a cdrom on a jr unless you're reading your own cds. what
> kind of write errors are you getting? have you tried clean booting using F5?
> partition size <32meg?
>
> In a message dated 12/7/98 10:25:44 PM EST, amirault@epix.net writes:
>
> << >  I have  one of the old IBM Edsels and I am currently trying to get the
>  > TMC850jr SCSI card I have to get a CDROM to work on it. Can anyone give me
>  > any
>  > clues as to how to do this? Can it be done at all?
>  >
>  >  I also have the combo cartridge V3.0 in this machine and upgraded the
>  > harddrive from DOS 5.0 to DOS 6.22 and now I keep getting write errors when
>  > I
>  > try to install programs onto the harddrive. Any help here?
>  >
>  >    Thanks everyone.
>  >
>  >     John Amirault >>





From gram at cnct.com  Tue Dec  8 20:41:47 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: (Linux != UNIX) (Was Re: OT HP Networking)
References:  <366DD23F.81CB4011@cnct.com> <19981209014504.13334.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <366DE36B.64E85696@cnct.com>

Eric Smith wrote:
> 
> Ward Donald Griffiths III  wrote:
> > If you can name a RedHat module
> > without open source, I'll eat a source listing.
> 
> Netscape Navigator
> Netscape Communicator
> RealAudio player
> BRU
> Accelerated-X

These were not by Red Hat, though supplied on the disk.  And I never
could get the supplied RealAudio player to work.  Never even tried the
Acc-X server -- it didn't support a chipset I could test it on that
XFree86 didn't support just fine.  (But I do remember a time when BRU
was mostly a set of shell scripts for Tandy Xenix -- Linus probably
wasn't in high school yet).

> Red Baron
> 
> How big a source listing are you willing to eat?  Does it have to be on
> greenbar paper, or will an A-size laser-printed listing do?

I'll have the source diff from Mosaic on A-size -- forgot about that
experiment, which I still prefer to MS Internet Exploiter.  Hell, I
prefer uucp to MS Internet Exploder.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Tue Dec  8 20:37:03 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Free Software (Was Re: (Linux != UNIX) (Was Re: OT HP Networking))
Message-ID: <001e01be231c$d0c54c00$9c021a26@maxeskin>

That's fine, except that's not what the GNU license allows him to do.
> "I have nothing against people who sell
>software, and they should have nothing against me for forbidding >them from
using my software in the software they sell."
>
>--Chuck
>



From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com  Tue Dec  8 20:48:59 1998
From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:

> > 
> > After reading some of the sentiments posted recently, what I'm
> > hearing is that the price of Altair's is a bubble without
> > underlying value, that is, they may be somewhat rare but aren't 
> 
> That's basically my view.

Also, forgot to add - the subject 'Altair Collectors Association' is
a little take off on the radio group 'Collins Collector Association'
except that Collins gear is expensive, but darn good radios.

> > actually building and usually repairing it; the more
> 
> Sure. But there were other build-it-yourself machines that have not 
> attracted the prices of the Altair. Things like the 'Hewart Mini 6800'. 
> or the 'PE CHAMP'. Or the various Elektor computers. Or the Science of 
> Cambridge MK14 (although that one is somewhat expensive now). Or the 
> Nascom. All came as kits. Most of them are a few 10s of dollars 

Well, it may just be a case of marketing in a popular journal, but
NONE of the above appeared on my radar screen as a curious teenager
in nowhere West Virginia, USA at that time. 

Points well taken.

	Chuck
	cswiger@widomaker.com




From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Tue Dec  8 22:36:35 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: FYI  HP-HIL Re: OT HP vectra networking
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.1.16.19981208145600.2ecffd62@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981208223635.3a776e4e@intellistar.net>

At 11:19 PM 12/8/98 +0000, you wrote:
>> >IIRC they're simply mirror images of each other. But the plugs are 
>> >slightly different so you can't plug the cable into the wrong socket
anyway.
>> 
>>    I haven't tried it but that's not what HP says.
>
>I've just tried it with a spare HP-HIL cable and keyboard. The plugs 
>_will_ fit in the wrong sockets, but they won't lock. So if the plug fits 
>_and_ clicks in place it's right.
>
>Incidentally, one plug/socket is black and the other is white/clear, at 
>least on this cable/keyboard.

  Hmm. I haven't noticed that. I'll have to take a look at mine.
>
>I was right about the wiring being a mirror image. That's exactly what it is.
>
   Strange.  Why would they key the ends then?
>
>>   I think there is an addressing limitation but HP says that you'll usually
>> run into the  power limitation first.  I'm not sure how you're supposed to
>> know when you do unless the whole system chokes.
>
>Odd... HP-HIL devices dont take that much power in general. On a 
>large-ish 9000 system, I would think the PSU could easily cope with quite 
>a chain of devices.

   Assuming the entire output of the PS is available to the chain.  That's
a big assumetion!
>
>> >> there's only one piece of software for the HP 150 Touch Screen II
that will
>                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>> >I'm pretty sure that can use the HP-HIL mouse 
>> >on a 150-II.
>> 
>>   Yes, but not the standard 150. The TS-II uses the HP_HIL devices, the 150
>> uses a non-standard keyboard.
>
>The original HP150 uses a special keyboard and touchscreen interface. If 
>you want HP-HIL it's on an expansion card. In the HP150-II, HP-HIL is 
>standard and the keyboard and touchscreen are both on the HP-HIL interface.
>
>But you mentioned 'Touch Screen II' earlier. That's why I was so suprised 
>that only one piece of software used the mouse on that system.

   Yes, I was surprised at that too.  I wondered why I couldn't get the
mouse to work on the TS-II.  I finally found one of the 150 designers and
asked him.  He's the one that said that only DrawPerfect used the mouse.

  Joe



From gram at cnct.com  Tue Dec  8 21:05:27 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Free Software (Was Re: (Linux != UNIX) (Was Re: OT HP Networking))
References: <001e01be231c$d0c54c00$9c021a26@maxeskin>
Message-ID: <366DE8F7.91D8CA3F@cnct.com>

Max Eskin wrote:
> 
> That's fine, except that's not what the GNU license allows him to do.
> > "I have nothing against people who sell
> >software, and they should have nothing against me for forbidding >them from
> using my software in the software they sell."

And if he doesn't like the wording of the FSF license, he should have
written it differently.  He had the option.  It was his pencil.  And
his words.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Dec  8 21:08:21 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Linux Q's
In-Reply-To: <366DAE02.4EB43B8A@cnct.com>
References: <199812081201.MAA14427@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: 

>Reading the HOWTOs is not cheating.  It's the best thing that the
>free software movement come out with since the CopyLeft.  (Linux
>documentation -- the Networking materials especially -- is better
>than anything I've ever gotten from vendors, and helped me get
>"commercial" software working despite tech support's best efforts).

I've got to agree there.  I've been doing Linux since January of '92, and
even then after a only about three months it had better documentation that
OpenBSD has now!  The Linux HOWTOs are awsome!

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com  Tue Dec  8 21:08:51 1998
From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:


> As you probably know, the Scelbi-8H came well before the Altair and had a
> similar price.  But the Altair got a cover story in Popular Electronics,
> and the Scelbi didn't.  Of course, the Mark-8 got an even earlier cover

A Mark-8 is on my list of things to watch out for - as I, like many
others, attempted it but failed - but I'm not holding my breath. It
would be interesting to run the Scelbi 8008 BASIC on (SCELBAL).

> 
> I think the infatuation with the Altair today is due to reporters and
> popular writers repeating each other over and over that the Altair was
> "the first personal computer", which is nonsense.  Low-priced personal

Now I'm scared - me and the popular press agree! That is, it was
MY first personal computer, which is a fact. As you well know, once
people start into 'whose on first', distinctions start to blur -
"No, Charlie Babbage had the 'first' personal computer', 'No! - it
was Yang Lin's Abacus that was the 'first' personal computer', heheh.
It would be just as arbitrary so say a club of 5 people with
machine 'X' don't count, but suddenly a group of 2000 with machine
'Y' makes 'Y' the 'first'. 

Anyway, back to saving data...  :))


	Chuck
	cswiger@widomaker.com





From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Mon Dec  7 21:12:45 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: old(ish) computers for sale
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981207174629.59eff5ee@ricochet.net>

At 10:31 AM 12/7/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Take a 3.5 volt top hat LED.  Spread the leads to the proper
>width and apply (I would recommend using a pair of pliers)
>to a fresh 9 volt transistor radio battery.  I got shards of
>red plastic embedded in my fingers that way once.

Sounds like fun, but PLEASE -- WEAR SAFETY GLASSES!  I can say from
experience that glass (or plastic) in your eye is no fun at all.  (nor is
fuzzy eyesight/blindness.)

WEAR SAFETY GLASSES!



--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                       http://www.sinasohn.com/



From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Mon Dec  7 21:12:46 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Indexing Byte
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981207181457.294736ee@ricochet.net>

At 08:36 AM 12/8/98 -0600, you wrote:
>the basement.  The article compendiums that are offered for Byte,
>DDJ, etc. are interesting, but so are the ads, and they aren't included.

The NatGeo CD's that are out (around $150) have the ads as well, I
understand.  I suspect someone will do the same with some of the better
known computer mags as well at some point.


--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                       http://www.sinasohn.com/



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Tue Dec  8 21:26:44 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:

> > In fact, I just thought it would be great to make next year's VCF theme
> > "Before the Altair: The Evolution of the Microcomputer". 
> 
> I thought that was this year's theme.  BTW, define microcomputer, so we

This year didn't really have a theme.  No, I take that back.  This year's
theme was "Old Computers are Cool!"

> can argue about which was first (wait, by your definition, the F14 was
> the first microcomputer, right? :-)

Um, yeah!  Depending on how you define microcomputer, the F14A CADC
definitely takes thi honor.  However, I've finally gotten that info on the
Four Phase AL1 I've been talking about and that may add some new fuel to 
the controversy.

> If you drop "microcomputer" out of your theme, we might acutally be able
> to exhibit some theme machines.

Ok, fine.  "Before the Altair: Computers That Didn't Suck"

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Dec  8 21:34:41 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: news on the c64
In-Reply-To: <199812090134.SAA11114@calico.litterbox.com>
References: <199812090130.RAA03980@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at
 Dec 08, 1998 05:30:01 PM
Message-ID: 

>Heh.  Scarier still is someone wrote an OS for the 64 that includes an IP
>>stack.

One of these days I've got to find the space to get my C64 set back up.
It's just too cool of a machine to soup up :^)  BTW, I was a rabid hater of
the C-64 when it was available since it came out about 4 months after I got
the VIC-20 I worked all summer for.

>So much for this notion that 8 bit machines can't go on the net. :)   Hey,
>now that I have a 64... hmmm... how to get data from my PC to the 64 with
>no modem or serial port.. hmmm...

X1542 cable so you can attach the C1541 drive to your PC.  Or, a Catweasel
board in an Amiga.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au  Tue Dec  8 21:40:23 1998
From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: VAX collectors attention
In-Reply-To: <032601be20c7$7d38ae80$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic
 .edu.au>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981209143125.00a44b30@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au>

At 01:50 PM 06-12-98 +1030, Geoff Roberts wrote:

I wrote:

>>Excuse me, I've still got one in production and a couple of spares in my
>>"spares" room....
>
>
>I think you should open your spares room to the public and charge admission.
>:^)

Well, anyone passing is more than welcome to drop in and I'll provide a
guided tour for free. In the near future I'm going to have the Fifth Annual
Junk Room Clearance. I guess this will only be of interest to local readers
but I'll attempt to provide a list of what we plan to junk.


 Huw Davies                      | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au
 Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550  Fax: +61 3 9479 1999
 La Trobe University             | "If God had wanted soccer played in the
 Melbourne Australia 3083        | air, the sky would be painted green"


From jeff.kaneko at juno.com  Tue Dec  8 20:31:37 1998
From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: FSOT: Commodore GPIB cable.
Message-ID: <19981208.203139.215.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>

Joe:

I could sure use this.  WHat sort of trades are you looking for?

Jeff

On Tue, 08 Dec 1998 14:17:39 Joe  writes:
>Commodore marked cable with a card edge connector on one end and a
>male/female GPIB connectors on the other. Contact me if interested.
>
>  Joe
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com  Tue Dec  8 21:51:44 1998
From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Ok guys, Tomb it may concern in the Altair Collectors Association:

Today I got home, genuflect before the Golden Altair, made some
clean dumps of some BASIC programs and converted them to MP3 files,
largely for proof of concept, but also to see if these are small
enough for swapping via the Internet. A "Startrek" version came
out about 1.3Mb. They play very clearly and load w/o problem here.
If anyone else can get software into this format I'd love to
hear about it, as I only have one known good tape and don't like
typing in listings.

Results posted at http://www.widomaker.com/~cswiger

Std. Disclaimer.

	Chuck
	cswiger@widomaker.com




From allisonp at world.std.com  Tue Dec  8 22:04:01 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Dr. Dobbs..
Message-ID: <199812090404.AA28468@world.std.com>

< Of course, to tie in the other Altair thread, the Intellec, for all it 
< was the first CP/M machine, is nowhere near as valuable as an Altair...

Actually the altair disk system was rather hard to adapt to CPM and most 
people used a non altair system for that.

Allison



From allisonp at world.std.com  Tue Dec  8 22:04:08 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
Message-ID: <199812090404.AA28537@world.std.com>

< Us: Auntie Allison, tell us about the early days of microcomputing.

By then I was an Aunt...

< Allison: Well, in my day, we didn't have these fancy GUIs and Plug n Pla

Well we did, they were funny to look at so we didn't bother being learned 
to read write and cypher. 

< We had to write our own operating systems!  And we had to haul ASR-33

Yes and it was fun to do.  Even if we didn't have and assembler yet.

< terminals across bridges just so we could type in our programs.  That is

It was only the boardwalk.  But it was the pre-betting era so thre were 
few profitiable things there.

< if you were lucky enough to find a terminal! 

They abounded... uppercase only 1200 baud and expensive!!!!

< Usually we had to build our own from lights & switches...

Lots of lights... well they were leds and only red ones.  

Of course that was when homebrewed was self assembled and not referring 
to a microbrew.  The latter was called programming fluid (coffee, beer
or Coke).

Allison


< 
< Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@sicon
< ------------------------------------------------------------------------
< Always being hassled by the man.
< 
<                   Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
<                    See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
<                         [Last web site update: 12/07/98]
< 



From allisonp at world.std.com  Tue Dec  8 22:04:29 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
Message-ID: <199812090404.AA28785@world.std.com>


< Hell, Allison, your Horizon should be about old enough to drink.
< Legally, if silicon-based lifeforms had rights, and could get ID.

Officially the CPU and MDS disk are 21 as they were assembled in early 
1977. The s100 crate was an early '78 assembly so that's only 20.  It
turns 21 in two months.  It's still in use.

Allison



From allisonp at world.std.com  Tue Dec  8 22:04:36 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
Message-ID: <199812090404.AA28849@world.std.com>

< Don't forget the S-100 bus was really invented at MITS on the Altair.

The mits version of it was not the most compatable version and by 79
it was the most incompatable version.  It was a poorly conceived bus
and badly organized.  The fact that systems worked using it was a result 
of other vendors efforts to clean it up.  Even MITS had to toss in the 
towel and do an 8800B.

The signals on the 100 pin connector are identical to the intellec8I.

Allison



From Arlen.Michaels.amichael at nt.com  Tue Dec  8 22:28:15 1998
From: Arlen.Michaels.amichael at nt.com (Arlen Michaels)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Anyone have 1/83 Byte Mag?
Message-ID: <13E2EF604DE5D111B2E50000F80824E8C9B755@zwdld001.ca.nortel.com>

	On Sun, 6 Dec 1998, "Richard A. Cini, Jr."  wrote:

> Does anyone have the 1/83 issue of Byte Magazine? In it is part 3 of an
> article by Steve Ciarcia about the MPX-16 PC-compatible SBC. I have parts
> 1
> and 2, so I need the third.
> 
I see Barry beat me to it and found the article for you.  I actually have
Ciarcia's original prototypes for the MPX-16 motherboard, and some paperwork
from his project file.  

Do you suppose I should e-bay them into university tuition for my kids?  :)

If you can't find what you need in the Byte article, it's possible there's
more info buried in the notes I got from Steve.

Arlen
--
Arlen Michaels     amichael@nortelnetworks.com



From Arlen.Michaels.amichael at nt.com  Tue Dec  8 22:28:16 1998
From: Arlen.Michaels.amichael at nt.com (Arlen Michaels)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Finished posting 8800b Manual/Next
Message-ID: <13E2EF604DE5D111B2E50000F80824E8C9B756@zwdld001.ca.nortel.com>

	On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, "Barry A. Watzman"  wrote:

> Myself and another individual are trying to find the source of a =
> magazine article which describes a modification to the IMSAI CP-A front =
> panel.
> 
> The title of the article is "The Slow-Stepping Debugger" by Howard =
> Bendrot.
> 
> We believe that it was published between 1976 and 1979, probably in =
> 1977.  We believe it is likely that it was published in Kilobaud =
> Microcomputing magazine, and there is some suspicion that it may have =
> been on Page 60.  But none of this is confirmed, and we don't have these =
> magazines to verify this.
> 
> Can anyone identify the Magazine, issue and page number of this article =
> for certain ?
> 
> Thanks,
> Barry Watzman
> 
I have the article in front of me.  It is indeed on p. 60 of  Kilobaud,
issue #4, April 1977.  It's a one-page description of how to alter the
single-step mode to add a slow-step capability (so you don't have to keep
pounding on the step switch).

Arlen
--
Arlen Michaels     amichael@nortelnetworks.com



From altair8800 at hotmail.com  Tue Dec  8 23:01:43 1998
From: altair8800 at hotmail.com (Bob Wood)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: New Altair Computers website!
Message-ID: <19981209050143.27843.qmail@hotmail.com>


>From: Doug Yowza 

>
>I think the highest recorded sale for an Altair was around $5000, which 
is
>still absurd, but only by an order of magnitude or so.
>
>-- Doug

It was exactly $5000, Doug.  It was a pristine
perfect example.
But Uncle Sam will get well over $1K of it. So
think of it partly as a nice donation to your government
and all the good that money will do for us.

Bob Wood


Bob Wood







Bob Wood



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From yowza at yowza.com  Tue Dec  8 23:29:49 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: New Altair Computers website!
In-Reply-To: <19981209050143.27843.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Bob Wood wrote:

> It was exactly $5000, Doug.  It was a pristine perfect example.  But
> Uncle Sam will get well over $1K of it. So think of it partly as a nice
> donation to your government and all the good that money will do for us. 

No way!  You're doing untraceable cash transactions over the internet and
reporting the money as income?!

I hope you were able to sell a couple to that guy from Microsoft who
burned a bunch of cash on Altairs in New Mexico recently.  Or are you
saving the unassembled kit for BillG himself?  Don't settle for less that
$400M!  If he'll pay that for Hotmail, he'd certainly pay it for an
Altair.

-- Doug



From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au  Wed Dec  9 00:39:00 1998
From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: VAX collectors attention
Message-ID: <002001be233e$a7c06160$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>

-----Original Message-----
From: Huw Davies 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Wednesday, 9 December 1998 15:19
Subject: Re: VAX collectors attention


>Well, anyone passing is more than welcome to drop in and I'll provide a
>guided tour for free.

If I ever get to Melbourne again, I'll be sure and take you up on that. :^)

> In the near future I'm going to have the Fifth Annual
>Junk Room Clearance. I guess this will only be of interest to local readers

I guess I must be local on this scale.  I'd be interested. :^)

>but I'll attempt to provide a list of what we plan to junk.


It will make interesting reading I'm sure.


Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Systems Manager
Saint Marks College
Port Pirie  South Australia.
My ICQ# is 1970476
Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile)
      61-8-8633-0619 (Home)
      61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct)
      61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)



From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au  Wed Dec  9 01:32:35 1998
From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: VAX 8350 in Houston,Texas.
Message-ID: <024b01be2346$241cc260$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>

Saw this in comp.os.vms
I'd take it myself, but I'd have to mortgage the Town Hall to pay the
freight.
Anyone want a VERY well equipped, complete, older Vax, with loads of parts
and docs etc?

-----Original Message-----
From: Kent Rankin 
Newsgroups: comp.os.vms
Date: Tuesday, 8 December 1998 18:01
Subject: What is a VAX 8350 fully loaded worth?


>
>    A friend of mine has a VAX 8350 that he picked up recently.  It's quite
>a large setup, to say the least.  I was wondering if someone could tell me
>what I should get(at least) for it for him, and what I could get for it.
>Here's what it has:
>
>        VAX 8350 with 2 processors
>        SA482 Storage array loaded with 3 RA82(6.22MB) drives
That's a typo I think, they are 622Mb each.  And 64KG!
>        A giant 200amp power conditioner that looks just like the VAX
>        A TU81-Plus Tape drive
>        Two DMB32-M things.  I think that they are multiplexors
>                    Anyone know about them?
>        Two LA120 printers.  One DA model, and one AA model.
>        A LA75 printer
>        A VT420 terminal(JA model)
>        Five DECServer200/DL Terminal Servers.  Anyone know what
>                    the DL stands for?
>
>    I think that is all that is included, but I could be wrong.  I'm
>notreally sure as to what cards are in it(besides the TU81 Plus'
interface).
>
>    The box has absolutely TONS of packages from DEC on it with the
>licenses.  The manuals are all there, and many of them have extras that are
>shrinkrapped.  Many spare parts for the machine are new, and in DEC boxes,
>still wrapped.  There are boxes and boxes of new manuals, to give you an
>idea.
>
>    The machine was on maintenance until September of 1998.  Plus, as an
>added bonus, it has the whole Y2k support package.
>I do know that all of the packages are very recent versions, and that
>OpenVMS 7.0 is loaded on it.
>
>    It was used(until upgraded) with MANY terminals running off of it for
>basic business uses, and for calculating the lights(andtheir positions)
>needed in a stadium, and is in perfect condition.
>
>    Anyhow, anyone have any ideas on the pricing?  Perhaps a good outlet
for
>me to sell it?
>
>
>                                                Thanks in advance,
>                                                Kent Rankin



Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Systems Manager
Saint Marks College
Port Pirie  South Australia.
My ICQ# is 1970476
Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile)
      61-8-8633-0619 (Home)
      61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct)
      61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)



From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Wed Dec  9 06:23:42 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Kaypro 2X questions
Message-ID: <366E6BCE.749BBFA7@bigfoot.com>

Just got an IMMACULATE Kaypro 2X machine, with all the original disks.
It doesn't have the keyboard cable though, but I imagine it will use the
same type as most terminal keyboards that have modular phone type
connectors? The port on back is clearly marked keyboard so no big deal
there.

Also on back is another modular, a little bigger but unmarked. Is this
possibly a modem or what else could it be?

Anyone have any manuals for the actual machine they want to sell, trade
or copy?



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Dec  9 08:45:24 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: FSOT: Commodore GPIB cable.
In-Reply-To: <19981208.203139.215.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981209084524.47af69ae@intellistar.net>

Jeff,

  That one is sold but I have another one that's still new in the bag.  I'm
looking for anything for my Altair, anything for my Tektronix 4051 or HP
calculator or computer stuff. Machines, parts, manuals or whatever.

  Joe

At 08:31 PM 12/8/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Joe:
>
>I could sure use this.  WHat sort of trades are you looking for?
>
>Jeff
>
>On Tue, 08 Dec 1998 14:17:39 Joe  writes:
>>Commodore marked cable with a card edge connector on one end and a
>>male/female GPIB connectors on the other. Contact me if interested.
>>
>>  Joe
>>
>>
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>



From handyman at sprintmail.com  Tue Dec  8 19:34:34 1998
From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Kaypro 2X questions
References: <366E6BCE.749BBFA7@bigfoot.com>
Message-ID: <366DD3AA.EC73ED48@sprintmail.com>

Russ Blakeman wrote:

> Just got an IMMACULATE Kaypro 2X machine, with all the original disks.
> It doesn't have the keyboard cable though, but I imagine it will use the
> same type as most terminal keyboards that have modular phone type
> connectors? The port on back is clearly marked keyboard so no big deal
> there.
>
> Also on back is another modular, a little bigger but unmarked. Is this
> possibly a modem or what else could it be?
>
> Anyone have any manuals for the actual machine they want to sell, trade
> or copy?


Yes just use a modular phone cord that will work. The other jack is a modem.

The 2X is the same model as the original 2 with the exception of double side
double density drives..  Also improved Green Phosphor screen, slow decay
(Nice tracers when typing fast)..
Does your computer have a dark charcol gray case and keyboard ?, Kaypro also
made 2X with the same case as the original II, Light Gray & powder blue with
the exception of the full  height drives ...
I own a Kaypro II, 2X, 4, 10, 16...
Also have some extra manuals so email me privatly and see what I can do..

Phil....






From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Dec  9 10:12:25 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Unusual Apple keyboard
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981209101225.25078c68@intellistar.net>

I found an odd Apple keyboard yesterday.  It says that it's an Apple
Adjustable keyboard.  The main keyboard hinges in the middle and you can
bend it so that each half faces out at and angle. It also has an oversize
space bar. The numeric keypad is a separate piece and connects by cable.
Besides the numeric keys, it has cursor keys, 15 Pf keys and Help, Home,
End, Page Up and Page Down keys. The keyboard also came with an Apple
Desktop Bus Mouse II.  Does anyone know anything about these?  I've never
seen one before but they look pretty neat.

  Joe



From dpeschel at u.washington.edu  Wed Dec  9 08:27:23 1998
From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Unusual Apple keyboard
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981209101225.25078c68@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Dec 9, 98 10:12:25 am
Message-ID: <199812091427.GAA25656@saul9.u.washington.edu>

> I found an odd Apple keyboard yesterday.  It says that it's an Apple
> Adjustable keyboard.  The main keyboard hinges in the middle and you can
[...]
> Desktop Bus Mouse II.  Does anyone know anything about these?  I've never
> seen one before but they look pretty neat.

They are, but you may need software to get the full benefit of the keyboard.
I've never used them, but I think they were one of Apple's less stable
products, since Apple's FTP site has a number of drivers and patches to the
drivers for different hardware.  Hopefully you should find all the software
you need to get up and running.

-- Derek


From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Wed Dec  9 09:08:13 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: news on the c64
In-Reply-To: <199812090134.SAA11114@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Dec 8, 98 06:34:11 pm
Message-ID: <199812091508.HAA15364@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From jeff.kaneko at juno.com  Wed Dec  9 08:53:18 1998
From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: FSOT: Commodore GPIB cable.
Message-ID: <19981209.090817.211.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>

Joe:

Okay, I have something that may interest you.  One of Northstar's
first products, was a floppy disk drive, that could be used with
Altairs (among others).  I have a pair of these 5.25" drives in an
aluminum/wooden cabinet.

There are inscriptions inside giving dates that it was built up, 
upgraded, etc.  I don't remember the exact dates, but it seems that
it was built in 1977.

I have reason to believe the drives are original; one still has the
N* nameplate attached thereto.  The wooden top cover is in decent 
shape, has a small bit of wood chipped from a front corner.

If this is interesting, I can get more particulars-- especially
corrolation of the dates with the actual Altair/Imsai/N* product
release timelines.

Jeff

On Wed, 09 Dec 1998 08:45:24 Joe  writes:
>Jeff,
>
>  That one is sold but I have another one that's still new in the bag. 
> I'm
>looking for anything for my Altair, anything for my Tektronix 4051 or 
>HP
>calculator or computer stuff. Machines, parts, manuals or whatever.
>
>  Joe
>
>At 08:31 PM 12/8/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>Joe:
>>
>>I could sure use this.  WHat sort of trades are you looking for?
>>
>>Jeff
>>
>>On Tue, 08 Dec 1998 14:17:39 Joe  writes:
>>>Commodore marked cable with a card edge connector on one end and a
>>>male/female GPIB connectors on the other. Contact me if interested.
>>>
>>>  Joe
>>>
>>>
>>
>>___________________________________________________________________
>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at 
>http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>>
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Wed Dec  9 09:15:22 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Scanning Fiche
In-Reply-To: <19981208202238.02081@zen.as.utexas.edu> from "Matthew Sayler" at Dec 8, 98 08:22:38 pm
Message-ID: <199812091515.HAA04838@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec  9 10:15:28 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4.1.19981208090743.00b13670@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
Message-ID: <199812091516.PAA20309@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> However - I do see it as the 'Model-T' of PERSONAL computing - 
> sure everything had been done before but was usually priced
> out of the average joe/jane's reach unless they worked in a
> research institute or business, in which case they weren't
> always allowed free reign to do whatever they wanted.

Hmm I don't know - the Modell T ?
I guess this one goes to Apple, Commodore and Tandy.

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec  9 10:15:28 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: New Altair Computers website!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199812091516.PAA20301@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> The $12,000 bid DID actually happen.  She didn't win the auction.  I think no
> one reached that particular auction price since the reserve was not met.  

> Anyways, its just a way to hype my website.. Heheh.

I just can't see the fun in degenerative actions :(

Gruss
H.

--
Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh.
H.Achternbusch


From jfoust at threedee.com  Wed Dec  9 09:12:35 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Scanning Fiche
In-Reply-To: <19981208202238.02081@zen.as.utexas.edu>
References: <199812090132.RAA10194@oa.ptloma.edu>
 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981209091235.00efc230@pc>

At 08:22 PM 12/8/98 -0600, Matthew Sayler wrote:
>
>Watch out--some pdf's are just 75-100dpi images of the page.  This
>seems to be especially common for old data sheets and the like 
>upgraded to the "new" system.

That's not a bad thing.  Acrobat is a handy way to store and view
a sequence of images.  Image thumbnailers aren't bad, but aren't as
document-centric.

- John



From jfoust at threedee.com  Wed Dec  9 09:02:34 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: (Linux != UNIX)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <366DB4F1.51E9C32@cnct.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981209090234.00f04100@pc>

At 05:34 PM 12/8/98 -0600, Doug Yowza wrote:
>According to the interview I read (from 1996), Stallman considers Linux to
>be the fullfillment of his mission to make Unix free, but he might be a
>bit unhappy that Linus is seen as the creator of something that couldn't
>have been pulled off without his help.  Linux would be a sorry joke
>without GNU.

Can't wait to hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth with the first
release of the first Microsoft Linux CD.

- John



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Dec  9 11:36:18 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Up for grabs: IBM 8" floppy drive
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981209113618.485f03a6@intellistar.net>

Still house cleaning.  I scrapped an IBM 3274 but saved the floppy drive.
If anyone has a use for it, it's your's for $10 and shipping. It has a
connector for a ribbon cable and not the normal card edge connector and it
appears to be a double sided drive. I also have the manuals for the 3274
that I'll throw in.

   Joe



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Dec  9 11:41:06 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Up for grabs:  Unusual video cable
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981209114106.485f8432@intellistar.net>

Still finding more junk ^H^H^H^H er, ah, treasures.  Found this video cable
but I have no idea what it's for. It looks like a 13W3 cable for a Sun
computer but only has the three co-axial connectors in the plug and no
pins. The plug is the same size as a DB-15. The other end of the cable has
the usual three BNC connectors for a RGB monitor.  Send beer money plus
postage and this wonderfull treasure will be your's.

  Joe



From mpsayler at zen.as.utexas.edu  Wed Dec  9 09:47:08 1998
From: mpsayler at zen.as.utexas.edu (Matthew Sayler)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Scanning Fiche
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981209091235.00efc230@pc>; from John Foust on Wed, Dec 09, 1998 at 09:12:35AM -0600
References: <199812090132.RAA10194@oa.ptloma.edu>  <19981208202238.02081@zen.as.utexas.edu> <3.0.5.32.19981209091235.00efc230@pc>
Message-ID: <19981209094708.41107@zen.as.utexas.edu>

I remember back in '98 when John Foust wrote:
> >Watch out--some pdf's are just 75-100dpi images of the page.  This
> >seems to be especially common for old data sheets and the like 
> >upgraded to the "new" system.
> That's not a bad thing.  Acrobat is a handy way to store and view
> a sequence of images.  Image thumbnailers aren't bad, but aren't as
> document-centric.

'tis if you're just trying to get a quick idea of a document.
(vs. text, that is).  I can't remember what the max. resoution
of a IIgs is, but I bet its a bit smaller than (8.5x11)x100.

I really hate scrolling a fractional viewport a document, but maybe
that's just me. 

		Matt

-- 
/* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler@zen.as.utexas.edu -- atwork?astronomy:cs
   http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler   -- (512)471-7450
   Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */


From cfandt at netsync.net  Wed Dec  9 10:10:06 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Need an IBM 9309-2 Rack Enclosure
Message-ID: <4.1.19981209095541.00a90ce0@206.231.8.2>

Hi gang,  I need your help in finding something.

Some of you know I rescued an IBM 9370 system from my now-ex employer in
mid-'97. It is considered as a small mainframe; a CMOS version of the
S/370. I could only fit the racked components into the old house back then,
not the two rather large rack enclosures (too wide and deep and weighed
over 139 kg or 300+ pounds). Also, I certainly could not keep the 500+
pound 3262-5 printer! So, I had to scrap those large items.

At that time, I carefully stacked the DASD (disk drives) upon a sturdy
wooden crate and made a hefty roll-around pallet for the previously
rack-mounted 9375-60 Processor (weighs 132 kg or just over 290 pounds.) The
9347 tape drive was set upon the 9375-60. I cabled everything up and set to
getting it IPL'd. The system uses a PS/2 Model 30 (8086) as the System
Console and IPL device. Some sort of failure occured at IPL that I could
not debug so I let it set as we got rather busy looking for, buying, fixing
up and ultimately moving into this house.

It looks like I will be able to just squeeze a 9309-2 rack down through the
basement door and stairway in this new house. Therefore, I'm looking for a
single IBM 9309 Model 2 rack enclosure. Should be empty. I already have a
Power Control Compartment, operator panel and wiring I salvaged from the
old racks. A six or ten inch stabilizer (anti-tipover stabilizer) would
also be desired. 

The catch is that it should be sort of nearby my hometown in Western NY
State. Shipping would be too costly otherwise. I'm unemployed up to now and
should save my severance pay for real bills and more remodeling of this
house. See sig below for location. However, I can pay for gas money and
meals for anyone who rolls one into their pickup truck and hauls it out
here! :-)

You see, I have what is understood as being Serial Number One of the 9370
production release. My employer bought the first 9370 available when we
upgraded our data processing system in 1987 from the old Hewlett-Packard
HP250-30 system (which is also in my collection!). 

Now that we have a house in which a Model 2 rack enclosure should just fit
into the basement door and stairs, I want to give the 9375-60 processor,
9347 tape drive and several 9332-400 DASD's a decent place to live as it is
a bit historically significant being system S/N 1.

These 9309 racks were used not just for 9370's but for other IBM machines
such as the early AS/400's and other systems and/or their mass storage
devices, so they should be around. More and more of these old systems are
being taken out of service and usually junked nowadays.

Let me know if you hear of or have any 9309-2 racks!! Or even the shorter
9309-1 racks (need two of 'em then.)

Thanks so much for the help! 

Sincerely,  Chris
-- --
=======================================================
Christian R. Fandt              Phone: +716-488-1722  
31 Houston  Avenue           email:  cfandt@netsync.net   
Jamestown, New York       
14701-2627    USA             




From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu  Wed Dec  9 10:30:47 1998
From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: To Frank McConnell, hp9000
In-Reply-To: <199810060532.WAA28294@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Oct 5, 98 10:32:41 pm
Message-ID: <199812091630.LAA11542@maddog.ee.nd.edu>

Hello -

Frank, I couldn't find your email address, so I'm posting to this lis.
I have a HP9000 series 500 doing nothing but holding down the floor.
Are you interested in a trade?

john
> 
> Doug Yowza  wrote:
> > I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance
> > represented on this list. 
> 
> Hmm, any other HP9000 series 500 owners out there?  (I have a 520, but
> would like to hear from anyone who has any FOCUS-architecture 9000s.)
> 
> -Frank McConnell
> 


-- 

***********************************************************************
* John Ott                         *  Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu     *
* Dept. Electrical Engineering     *                                  *
* 275 Fitzpatrick Hall             *                                  *
* University of Notre Dame         *  Phone: (219) 631-7752           *
* Notre Dame, IN 46556        USA  *                                  *
***********************************************************************



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Wed Dec  9 10:39:05 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: (Linux != UNIX)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981209090234.00f04100@pc>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, John Foust wrote:

> Can't wait to hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth with the first
> release of the first Microsoft Linux CD.

You mean the embraced and extended, and subsequently bug-ridden,
distribution of Linux?  No thanks, I'll stick with what works right and as
it was intended.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec  9 12:25:33 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: WHOOPEE!
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <199812091726.RAA09419@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > That's roughly how it is in the UK at the moment. All devices 'directly 
> > or indirectly connected' to the phone system have to be approved. This 
> > includes acoustic couplers, BTW, which have to be unable to send certain 
> > tones down the line.

> Why?  Is the UK public network still using in-band signaling?  We can't
> blue box in the states anymore.  Most of the switches nationwide have been
> upgraded to digital, out-of-band signaling.

:))

We never could blue box at all here in Germany :( Beside touch tone
dialing ant the unit pulse there has never been any signaling via
the line - and the unit pulse was only send from PBX to the phone.
Payment calculation has always been local within the payphone, back
in the '50s and '60s using relais driven electro mechanical counters
(covered by _real_ metall to avoide any influence thru strong electro
magnets :).

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec  9 12:31:04 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Linux Q's
In-Reply-To: 
References: <366DAE02.4EB43B8A@cnct.com>
Message-ID: <199812091732.RAA10046@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> >> low. Try it - or read the MCA HOWTO (cheating). If you take

> >Reading the HOWTOs is not cheating.  It's the best thing that the
> >free software movement come out with since the CopyLeft.  (Linux
> >documentation -- the Networking materials especially -- is better
> >than anything I've ever gotten from vendors, and helped me get
> >"commercial" software working despite tech support's best efforts).

> I've got to agree there.  I've been doing Linux since January of '92, and
> even then after a only about three months it had better documentation that
> OpenBSD has now!  The Linux HOWTOs are awsome!

Of course the HOWTOs are a great thing - but they are still
written documentation - and reading manuals is cheating.

Althrough I have to admit that I found them also _very_ usefull.

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec  9 12:54:16 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
In-Reply-To: <366DB91B.CDFFAE5D@cnct.com>
Message-ID: <199812091755.RAA11651@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > However - I do see it as the 'Model-T' of PERSONAL computing -
> > sure everything had been done before but was usually priced
> > out of the average joe/jane's reach unless they worked in a
> > research institute or business, in which case they weren't
> > always allowed free reign to do whatever they wanted.

> The Model-T systems of computers were the TRS-80, the Apple-2 and
> (hate to say it) the Pet.  Something that could be bought by a
> common citizen and made to work -- the computer buyer didn't have
> to be a serious programmer, the buyer of a Ford T didn't have to
> be a full-time mechanic.  While I know there were MITS-equivalent
> automobile projects published a century ago, none of the names
> seem to stand out.  Thinking on it, the Ford Model A was the
> equivalent of a TRS-80 Model One, the Model T was the equivalent
> of a Model 3.

Exact my point, but

> The Volkswagen was the equivalent of an IBM PC,
> right down to the fascist overseers of the design.

here I get some problems.

First of all I would compare  the C64 to the Volkswagen -
Already low end and overpriced when the production started,
outdated way before any production record and still sold
when _any_ other computer available was already better.

The VW was designed in the 30's but not build until the
'50s, to expensive at the start, and only a _very_ basic
car. And in the high time around 1960 to '75 the car was
completly outclassed - but sold in millions. Same for the
C64 - dat first only a fast developed simple machine to
be sold for less than a year, with only a minimum to run
and extremly expensive (thru the first year an Apple ][+
compatible syswtem was cheaper than any C64). Even, only
to use the build in features you had to get add on software.
When the sales roared, any other home computeer was already
better, but anyone was buying the C64 - like the Volkswagen ...

The IBM-PC (and all the folowing PCs) are in my view well
comperable to todays Volkswagen or Crysler cars - do one
design and add badges with brand names as needed (e.g.
Volkswagen creates a design and it is build as VW, Audi,
SEAT or Skoda).

Second, I can't catch the meaning of your words:
> right down to the fascist overseers of the design.

I can't see any 'facist' design around the Volkswagen.
Of course, the car was used as a propaganda instrument,
but the design was just top class of the '30s - right
among the top designs of the same time in the US - just
a bit smaler and simpler (like the C64 always remind me
of some IBM keyboards :)

> (For Ferarri parallels, go for Cromemco or Xerox).

I'm still looking for a Monteverdi type computer :)

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Wed Dec  9 12:07:28 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
In-Reply-To: <199812091755.RAA11651@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 9, 98 06:55:16 pm
Message-ID: <199812091807.KAA17186@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From cfandt at netsync.net  Wed Dec  9 12:08:44 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:02 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
Message-ID: <4.1.19981209130102.00aa0100@206.231.8.2>

Doug Yowza  wrote:
> I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance
> represented on this list. 

Anybody have an HP250-30, IBM 9370, Tektronix 31 (kinda like the 9825)?

Also, I haven't heard of anyone in our own group on the list mentioning
they have a DG Nova 1200.

These are four are in my collection.

Regards,  Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec  9 13:13:38 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: x86 OS's
In-Reply-To: <02e101be2318$146b0da0$6865a8c2@gareth.knight2>
Message-ID: <199812091814.SAA13607@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> Hans Franke wrote:
> >The Web-Disk runs perfectly on a 8 MB machine and I can't find any
> >information to have 640K plus 8MB, which would be a rather unusual
> >configuration for a PC, since you need a 12 SIMM slot board with
> >8x1MB + 4x256K, And 256 KB SIMs have been only a very short
> >time (back in the age of '286es and '386es) widely available.

> What type of machine are you trying to boot it on? I've tried to run in on a
> Compaq 486 33MHz with 8Mb. It goes through the booting process until it
> reachs 100% and then states that the machine does not have enough memory to
> run. Of course I have no idea about PC memory, the Amiga appears simple
> compared to a PC :)

PC mem is quite simple - just mem inside the address space ...
It's just that the marketing guys picked up some wiered terms
and managed to create must have buzz words. But I never get
the idea of the Amiga RAM ...

I booted the disk perfectly on a SIEMENS PCD-4G, thats a simple
standard ISA bus 486DX-33 machine with 8 Meg of mem, 112 MB
Connor HD, a pigy pack version of a standard Crius VGA card
and a 3COM EtherLink II networking card. Nothing fancy at all.

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu  Wed Dec  9 12:19:13 1998
From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: Fujitsu 9-track tape drive available
Message-ID: <199812091819.MAA00301@fudge.uchicago.edu>

My boss has just told me to get rid of the Fujitsu 9-track tape drive
that's been sitting unused in the corner of our machine room for the
past several years.  It's about ten years old, its model number is
M2444A, and I think it uses an SMD interface.  It's in a 5-foot-tall
rack.  The bottom of the rack also contains three hard disks of unknown
capacity.

If you want it, you'll have to pick it up in Chicago.  Is anyone interested?

eric


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec  9 13:36:14 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
In-Reply-To: <366DDD2F.87EE5A3C@cnct.com>
Message-ID: <199812091837.SAA14964@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > < > After reading some of the sentiments posted recently, what I'm
> > < > hearing is that the price of Altair's is a bubble without
> > < > underlying value, that is, they may be somewhat rare but aren't
> > < > really great machines, like a Ferarri or whatever, and that
> > < > the BASIC software for it wasn't very innovative.
> > < That's basically my view.
> > Same here.  Historically important but generally poor design.
> > I'd say machines like the NorthStar Horizon, CCS 2xxx series and
> > CompuPro systems did more to put systems in business and other non
> > hobby applications.  I have several old enough to vote and they still
> > run well.

> Hell, Allison, your Horizon should be about old enough to drink.
> Legally, if silicon-based lifeforms had rights, and could get ID.

Old enough to drink ? ID's ? Who the hell needs an ID to
get a beer - If your to young to drink (let's say five)
anybody could clearly see it - and if your older, nobody
will stop you ... crazy americanos :)

Hans

P.S.: In fact, I think, the most alcohol I handled thru my
      life was used to clean computers (Disk drives, tape
      drives, etc. :).

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec  9 13:36:14 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: (Linux != UNIX)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981209090234.00f04100@pc>
References: 
Message-ID: <199812091837.SAA14967@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> At 05:34 PM 12/8/98 -0600, Doug Yowza wrote:
> >According to the interview I read (from 1996), Stallman considers Linux to
> >be the fullfillment of his mission to make Unix free, but he might be a
> >bit unhappy that Linus is seen as the creator of something that couldn't
> >have been pulled off without his help.  Linux would be a sorry joke
> >without GNU.

> Can't wait to hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth with the first
> release of the first Microsoft Linux CD.

*ROTFL*

Guess what - I won't call it impossible.
In fact I suggested it already on monday to
some colegues over here :)

Servus
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec  9 13:36:14 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
In-Reply-To: <199812091807.KAA17186@oa.ptloma.edu>
References: <199812091755.RAA11651@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 9, 98 06:55:16 pm
Message-ID: <199812091837.SAA14958@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> ::First of all I would compare  the C64 to the Volkswagen -
> ::Already low end and overpriced when the production started,
> ::outdated way before any production record and still sold
> ::when _any_ other computer available was already better.

> HEY!

> The 64 beat all contenders with the SID chip, and the VIC-II was definitely
> par with the other computers out there with the possible exception of the
> Atari 8-bits (ANTIC still has an edge with that wonderful display list). And
> the price plummeted quickly -- it didn't stay at US$595 MSRP very long. 

???

Shure, par at the time it was introduced, but I said
'still sold when _any_ other computer available was already better'
Or would you realy take a C64 above any lets say Amiga ?
And even when new, the hardware of competitors (like the
mentioned Ataris) where at least equal and the '''OS'''
didn't match the Hardware at all.

And for the price, it took more than a year to get the
C64 down to 600 Mark (the price of an Atari).

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Dec  9 14:44:58 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: single instance machines
In-Reply-To: <199812091630.LAA11542@maddog.ee.nd.edu>
References: <199810060532.WAA28294@daemonweed.reanimators.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981209144458.3ee7cf8a@intellistar.net>


>> Doug Yowza  wrote:
>> > I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance
>> > represented on this list. 
>> 

   Hmmm. I have two AT&T 3B1 model 310s. Does that count as one or two?
AFIK I have the only Tek 4051.

  Joe



From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Wed Dec  9 13:11:12 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
In-Reply-To: <199812091837.SAA14958@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 9, 98 07:37:14 pm
Message-ID: <199812091911.LAA13152@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From jpero at pop.cgocable.net  Wed Dec  9 08:43:01 1998
From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: Up for grabs:  Unusual video cable
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981209114106.485f8432@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <199812091937.OAA13197@mail.cgocable.net>

> Date:          Wed, 09 Dec 1998 11:41:06
> Reply-to:      classiccmp@u.washington.edu
> From:          Joe 
> To:            "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
> Subject:       Up for grabs:  Unusual video cable

> Still finding more junk ^H^H^H^H er, ah, treasures.  Found this video cable
> but I have no idea what it's for. It looks like a 13W3 cable for a Sun
> computer but only has the three co-axial connectors in the plug and no
> pins. The plug is the same size as a DB-15. The other end of the cable has
> the usual three BNC connectors for a RGB monitor.  Send beer money plus
> postage and this wonderfull treasure will be your's.
> 
>   Joe
> 
Thats for the microvax desktops and towers.  I have those type of 
connector on my bare motherboards.   Connects to sync on green 
monitors.


Jason D. 
email: jpero@cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.


From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Wed Dec  9 13:44:25 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981209130102.00aa0100@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: <000501be23ac$537869e0$3ef438cb@a.davie>

I've often wondered if my Datanumerics DL8A is the only one left.
http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/weird/datanumerics.html
Anyone else have one?
Cheers
A

> Doug Yowza  wrote:
> > I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance
> > represented on this list. 



From donm at cts.com  Wed Dec  9 13:58:39 1998
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: single instance machines
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981209144458.3ee7cf8a@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Joe wrote:

> 
> >> Doug Yowza  wrote:
> >> > I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance
> >> > represented on this list. 
> >> 
> 
>    Hmmm. I have two AT&T 3B1 model 310s. Does that count as one or two?
> AFIK I have the only Tek 4051.

No, I have one also.
						 - don
 
>   Joe
> 
> 


From jeff.kaneko at juno.com  Wed Dec  9 13:42:09 1998
From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: FSOT: Commodore GPIB cable.
Message-ID: <19981209.140221.277.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>

Sorry guys--
I'm sorry about all of the 
private mail here on the list.

I keep forgetting to watch those %$#^*&$*$#^ addresses!
Damn.

Jeff


___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From jeff.kaneko at juno.com  Wed Dec  9 13:57:38 1998
From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: single instance machines
Message-ID: <19981209.140221.277.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>

I also own a 3b1.  
What was special about the model 310?

Jeff

On Wed, 09 Dec 1998 14:44:58 Joe  writes:
>
>>> Doug Yowza  wrote:
>>> > I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single 
>instance
>>> > represented on this list. 
>>> 
>
>   Hmmm. I have two AT&T 3B1 model 310s. Does that count as one or 
>two?
>AFIK I have the only Tek 4051.
>
>  Joe
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From jeff.kaneko at juno.com  Wed Dec  9 14:01:08 1998
From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
Message-ID: <19981209.140221.277.3.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>

Okay, tough guy!
Anybody else here have a Fluke 1720a?
It is a TMS-9900 based instrument controller 
that Fluke marketed until the early 90's.

Jeff

On Wed, 09 Dec 1998 13:08:44 -0500 Christian Fandt 
writes:
>Doug Yowza  wrote:
>> I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single 
>instance
>> represented on this list. 
>
>Anybody have an HP250-30, IBM 9370, Tektronix 31 (kinda like the 
>9825)?
>
>Also, I haven't heard of anyone in our own group on the list 
>mentioning
>they have a DG Nova 1200.
>
>These are four are in my collection.
>
>Regards,  Chris
>-- --
>Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
>Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
>Member of Antique Wireless Association
>        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From donm at cts.com  Wed Dec  9 14:08:50 1998
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: Kaypro 2X questions
In-Reply-To: <366E6BCE.749BBFA7@bigfoot.com>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote:

> Just got an IMMACULATE Kaypro 2X machine, with all the original disks.
> It doesn't have the keyboard cable though, but I imagine it will use the
> same type as most terminal keyboards that have modular phone type
> connectors? The port on back is clearly marked keyboard so no big deal
> there.
> 
> Also on back is another modular, a little bigger but unmarked. Is this
> possibly a modem or what else could it be?

It may be, Russ.  The 2X came toward the end of Kaypro's 8-bit production 
and they were not exactly 'purebred'.  In some cases they contained both 
modem and realtime clock which they inherited from the 4/84.  In others 
those were absent as denoted by the unpopulated area on the right hand 
side of the motherboard.  Still the same basic etch, just not fully 
populated.  Generally, if the modem was present, the jack was identified.
  
> Anyone have any manuals for the actual machine they want to sell, trade
> or copy?

They really did not exist.  Kaypro distributed a rather generic User 
Guide that dated back to the early machines, and application specific 
volumes for the bundled software and operating system.  

What are you looking for, I may be able to help.

						 - don 



From wpfulmor at dimensional.com  Wed Dec  9 15:27:27 1998
From: wpfulmor at dimensional.com (William Fulmor)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: single instance machines
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


> On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Joe wrote:

> >    Hmmm. I have two AT&T 3B1 model 310s. Does that count as one or two?
                                       ^^^

Whazzat?

Anyway, I got ~~20 unixpc/7300/3b1 in various stages of operation -->
decomposition.  (Hi Jeff).

Bill 



From marvin at rain.org  Wed Dec  9 15:26:48 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: Kaypro Robbie
References: <19981209.140221.277.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>
Message-ID: <366EEB18.78C909E3@rain.org>

A friend of mine has a Kaypro Robbie, and we got to talking about what it
might be worth.  Anyone on the list have any idea?  A number of us have
fairly sizeable collections, and from an insurance standpoint, it would be a
good idea to have an idea of what these machines are worth!


From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Wed Dec  9 15:31:20 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: single instance machines
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <000601be23bb$436372c0$3ef438cb@a.davie>

I guess prototype 2650 S100 machines / cards qualify?  There must be a lot
of homebrew "single instance" machines lying around.  Here's one I'm
particularly fond of...
http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/weird/s100.html
This machine ran CP/M on a 2650 using a software 8080 emulator written in
2650.  Slowly!
Cheers
A



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Dec  9 15:51:21 1998
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: Anyone have 1/83 Byte Mag?
In-Reply-To: <13E2EF604DE5D111B2E50000F80824E8C9B755@zwdld001.ca.nortel.com>
Message-ID: 

I don't have that issue handy, but I do have TWO of those motherboards. (FS)

"PC-Compatible" might be a little bit of a stretch.  What does that MEAN, 
anyway?  My dictionary defines "compatible" as "capable of existing in the 
vicinity of".   

The MPX-16 was intended to connect to a terminal.  But there is an ISA 
board with it, to change that over to using a PC type keyboard.

--
Fred Cisin                      cisin@xenosoft.com
XenoSoft                        http://www.xenosoft.com
2210 Sixth St.                  (510) 644-9366
Berkeley, CA 94710-2219


On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Arlen Michaels wrote:

> 	On Sun, 6 Dec 1998, "Richard A. Cini, Jr."  wrote:
> 
> > Does anyone have the 1/83 issue of Byte Magazine? In it is part 3 of an
> > article by Steve Ciarcia about the MPX-16 PC-compatible SBC. I have parts
> > 1
> > and 2, so I need the third.
> > 
> I see Barry beat me to it and found the article for you.  I actually have
> Ciarcia's original prototypes for the MPX-16 motherboard, and some paperwork
> from his project file.  
> 
> Do you suppose I should e-bay them into university tuition for my kids?  :)
> 
> If you can't find what you need in the Byte article, it's possible there's
> more info buried in the notes I got from Steve.
> 
> Arlen
> --
> Arlen Michaels     amichael@nortelnetworks.com


From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Wed Dec  9 15:56:31 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: Kaypro 2X questions
References: 
Message-ID: <366EF20E.BCEEADCD@bigfoot.com>

Don Maslin wrote:

> On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote:
>
> > Just got an IMMACULATE Kaypro 2X machine, with all the original disks.
> > It doesn't have the keyboard cable though, but I imagine it will use the
> > same type as most terminal keyboards that have modular phone type
> > connectors? The port on back is clearly marked keyboard so no big deal
> > there.
> >
> > Also on back is another modular, a little bigger but unmarked. Is this
> > possibly a modem or what else could it be?
>
> It may be, Russ.  The 2X came toward the end of Kaypro's 8-bit production
> and they were not exactly 'purebred'.  In some cases they contained both
> modem and realtime clock which they inherited from the 4/84.  In others
> those were absent as denoted by the unpopulated area on the right hand
> side of the motherboard.  Still the same basic etch, just not fully
> populated.  Generally, if the modem was present, the jack was identified.

Haven't had a chance to open it but the "other" jack appears to be a modem by
the size of the jack being an RJ11 and other specs I've found at various
places on the net. It boots quick though, especially for a 64K CP/M machine
(once I figured out that I needed to lock the floppy drive). The modem isn't
marked but as I said it seems to be. The unit is marked as a PN 81-025 on the
back and is metallic blue with a light gray cover which is also the keyboard.
It only says Kaypro on the screen print on the sides, not kaypro 2 like I've
seen on other photos.

> > Anyone have any manuals for the actual machine they want to sell, trade
> > or copy?
>
> They really did not exist.  Kaypro distributed a rather generic User
> Guide that dated back to the early machines, and application specific
> volumes for the bundled software and operating system.
>
> What are you looking for, I may be able to help.

Just things to add to this already nice machine. Books, manuals, other
software, etc. I have all the original disks to include CP/M 2.2F and S-BASIC
and C-BASIC plus some copied software. It will be the first of the year before
I can really play with it and get used to it. Other than my Commie C128D it's
been 8 or 10 yrs since I've been "into" CP/M when I had my Epson PX-8.




From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec  9 13:14:08 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
In-Reply-To: <199812090142.AA08749@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Dec 8, 98 08:42:28 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec  9 13:11:09 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: FYI  HP-HIL Re: OT HP vectra networking
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981208223635.3a776e4e@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Dec 8, 98 10:36:35 pm
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec  9 13:22:19 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: Free Software (Was Re: (Linux != UNIX) (Was Re: OT HP Networking))
In-Reply-To: <366DE8F7.91D8CA3F@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Dec 8, 98 10:05:27 pm
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec  9 13:53:21 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: Linux Q's
In-Reply-To: <199812091732.RAA10046@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 9, 98 06:32:04 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec  9 13:51:45 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981209130102.00aa0100@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Dec 9, 98 01:08:44 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec  9 13:21:24 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
In-Reply-To:  from "cswiger" at Dec 8, 98 09:48:59 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec  9 13:36:11 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: Up for grabs:  Unusual video cable
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981209114106.485f8432@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Dec 9, 98 11:41:06 am
Message-ID: 

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From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Wed Dec  9 16:12:46 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: Free Software
In-Reply-To: <199812092208.RAA00215@localhost>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 9 Dec 1998 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote:
> Or, of course, released some of his software under a different license. 
> AFAIK, nobody, not even RMS, has to release anything under the GPL if 
> they don't want to.

*sigh*
It's politics again, as the whole OSS thing. There is the concept that
releasing source code with the program is good, and then there is
everything else, like stuff about Linux being renamed to GNU/Linux, etc.
They're just being pedantic, and whoever wins gets the throne though
there is no real issue to fight over (and no real throne)
> -tony
> 

----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From dogas at leading.net  Wed Dec  9 16:43:43 1998
From: dogas at leading.net (Mike)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: single instance machines
Message-ID: <01be23c5$5fe7aa60$e9c962cf@devlaptop>

;)  How about a basic/four model 1300...

Mike: dogas@leading.net




From daveygf at aol.com  Wed Dec  9 17:03:55 1998
From: daveygf at aol.com (David Freibrun)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: test..
Message-ID: <19981209230355.30037.qmail@findmail.com>

Test of http://www.egroups.com


From william at ans.net  Wed Dec  9 17:05:23 1998
From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: Need an IBM 9309-2 Rack Enclosure
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981209095541.00a90ce0@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: 

> Some of you know I rescued an IBM 9370 system from my now-ex employer in
> mid-'97. 

RCS/RI has so many, WERE GIVING THEM AWAY!

If you treat us kindly, you might find an RS/6000 930 (ex NSFnet router)
in it.

I also have complete docs for the 9309s, in all their flavors.

William Donzelli
william@ans.net



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec  9 16:15:31 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <19981209.140221.277.3.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "Jeffrey l Kaneko" at Dec 9, 98 02:01:08 pm
Message-ID: 

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From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Dec  9 19:10:05 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: single instance machines
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.1.16.19981209144458.3ee7cf8a@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981209191005.4f2fd4fe@intellistar.net>

At 11:58 AM 12/9/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
>No, I have one also.
>						 - don

   What do you have for your's?  Do you have any of the manuals? I have
quite a few but I'd like to get copies of any that I don't have, especially
the service manuals for the 8" disk drives.

   Joe



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Dec  9 19:14:19 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: single instance machines
In-Reply-To: <19981209.140221.277.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981209191419.0b1f0e82@intellistar.net>

Jeff,

   Sorry that should have said 3B2, not 3B1.  I also have a 3B1, actually
it's a 7300 that was field upgraded to a 3B1. I think there are several
people that have 3B1s on the list.

  Joe


At 01:57 PM 12/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
>I also own a 3b1.  
>What was special about the model 310?
>
>Jeff
>
>On Wed, 09 Dec 1998 14:44:58 Joe  writes:
>>
>>>> Doug Yowza  wrote:
>>>> > I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single 
>>instance
>>>> > represented on this list. 
>>>> 
>>
>>   Hmmm. I have two AT&T 3B1 model 310s. Does that count as one or 
>>two?
>>AFIK I have the only Tek 4051.
>>
>>  Joe
>>
>>
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Dec  9 19:18:07 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <19981209.140221.277.3.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981209191807.0b1f4dbe@intellistar.net>

No but I passed one up a couple of months ago. I consider them too
specailized to be considered a computer, even if it does have a CPU in it.
I have five Tektronix DAS 9100s but I don't consider them computers either.
Hell these days everything more complicated than a toaster contains a CPU!

  Joe

At 02:01 PM 12/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Okay, tough guy!
>Anybody else here have a Fluke 1720a?
>It is a TMS-9900 based instrument controller 
>that Fluke marketed until the early 90's.
>
>Jeff
>
>On Wed, 09 Dec 1998 13:08:44 -0500 Christian Fandt 
>writes:
>>Doug Yowza  wrote:
>>> I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single 
>>instance
>>> represented on this list. 
>>
>>Anybody have an HP250-30, IBM 9370, Tektronix 31 (kinda like the 
>>9825)?
>>
>>Also, I haven't heard of anyone in our own group on the list 
>>mentioning
>>they have a DG Nova 1200.
>>
>>These are four are in my collection.
>>
>>Regards,  Chris
>>-- --
>>Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
>>Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
>>Member of Antique Wireless Association
>>        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/
>>
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Dec  9 19:19:53 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: single instance machines
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981209191953.0b1f6b98@intellistar.net>

At 02:27 PM 12/9/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Joe wrote:
>
>> >    Hmmm. I have two AT&T 3B1 model 310s. Does that count as one or two?
>                                       ^^^
>
>Whazzat?

  That's a brain-fart. It should have said 3B2.
>
>Anyway, I got ~~20 unixpc/7300/3b1 in various stages of operation -->
>decomposition. 

  Sounds like my 6300s.

  Joe



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Dec  9 19:30:56 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: single instance machines
In-Reply-To: <01be23c5$5fe7aa60$e9c962cf@devlaptop>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981209193056.5107bb68@intellistar.net>


  I forgot.  I have two Tandy 6000 HDs.  Does anyone else still have one of
these? I think David W. does but he's missing the keyboard.

  Joe



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Dec  9 19:33:28 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
References: <19981209.140221.277.3.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981209193328.51074e40@intellistar.net>

No but I have an Intel developement system.  I DID have seven (yes, seven!)
HP 64000 Logic Developement Systems but I scrapped them.

  Joe


At 10:15 PM 12/9/98 +0000, you wrote:
>> 
>> Okay, tough guy!
>
>OK, anyone else here got a Tektronix 8000 microprocessor development system
>(either the 11/03 floppy-based one or the 11/23 hard-disk based one)?
>
>What about machines that almost everyone has, but a few don't? I don't 
>have a Vic20, for example, which is probably pretty unusual. 
>
>-tony
>
>



From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Wed Dec  9 17:36:05 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: DataGeneral "Eagle" ?
Message-ID: <199812092336.QAA15764@calico.litterbox.com>

Hi.  It occurred to me to wonder if anyone has the 32bit Data General machine
that was backward compatible with the Nova, and subject of the book "Soul of 
the New Machine".  The project codename was Eagle, but I don't recall what
the machine was called when it was actually produced.

Heh.  Serious collectable would be Gallifrey Eagle or one of the other 3
prototype machines. :)
-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From spc at armigeron.com  Thu Dec 10 17:32:10 1998
From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: single instance machines
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981209193056.5107bb68@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Dec 9, 98 07:30:56 pm
Message-ID: <199812102332.SAA12426@armigeron.com>

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From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Wed Dec  9 17:51:19 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To:  from "Tony Duell" at Dec 9, 98 10:15:31 pm
Message-ID: <199812092351.PAA13026@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From fauradon at pclink.com  Wed Dec  9 18:13:06 1998
From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: single instance machines
Message-ID: <002501be23d1$e6bf8240$0a010bce@francois>

How about the exelvision EXL100? is that a single instance on the list?
I also have the IR joysticks.
Francois
-------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the desperately in need of update 
Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/




From donm at cts.com  Wed Dec  9 18:12:52 1998
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: Kaypro Robbie
In-Reply-To: <366EEB18.78C909E3@rain.org>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote:

> A friend of mine has a Kaypro Robbie, and we got to talking about what it
> might be worth.  Anyone on the list have any idea?  A number of us have
> fairly sizeable collections, and from an insurance standpoint, it would be a
> good idea to have an idea of what these machines are worth!

Well, the Robie was one of the last and one of the smaller production run 
items that Kaypro made.  Because of the Drivetec drives and their 
tendency to 'eat' the rather high priced 2.8mb floppies that they needed, 
they were also one of the least liked.

Price?  I have no idea.
						 - don
 



From allisonp at world.std.com  Wed Dec  9 18:17:35 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: FSOT: Commodore GPIB cable.
Message-ID: <199812100017.AA22284@world.std.com>

< Okay, I have something that may interest you.  One of Northstar's
< first products, was a floppy disk drive, that could be used with
< Altairs (among others).  I have a pair of these 5.25" drives in an
< aluminum/wooden cabinet.

Yes, the board and the drive were released about the same time as their
z80 cpu.  it was late '76.

The NS* horizon box with the wood cover and all (about 20" wide) was later 
by nearly a year in mid'77 for shipments as kits.

< upgraded, etc.  I don't remember the exact dates, but it seems that
< it was built in 1977.

About right.

< 
< I have reason to believe the drives are original; one still has the
< N* nameplate attached thereto.  The wooden top cover is in decent 
< shape, has a small bit of wood chipped from a front corner.

Very common.  Mine is near mint.

< If this is interesting, I can get more particulars-- especially
< corrolation of the dates with the actual Altair/Imsai/N* product
< release timelines.



From marvin at rain.org  Wed Dec  9 18:16:00 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: single instance machines
References: <3.0.1.16.19981209193056.5107bb68@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <366F12C0.26F60786@rain.org>

Joe wrote:
> 
>   I forgot.  I have two Tandy 6000 HDs.  Does anyone else still have one of these? I think David W. does but he's missing the keyboard.

I have one HD and one 6000 (floppy disk only.)


From donm at cts.com  Wed Dec  9 18:20:58 1998
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: Kaypro 2X questions
In-Reply-To: <366EF20E.BCEEADCD@bigfoot.com>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote:

> Don Maslin wrote:

snip
 
> > It may be, Russ.  The 2X came toward the end of Kaypro's 8-bit production
> > and they were not exactly 'purebred'.  In some cases they contained both
> > modem and realtime clock which they inherited from the 4/84.  In others
> > those were absent as denoted by the unpopulated area on the right hand
> > side of the motherboard.  Still the same basic etch, just not fully
> > populated.  Generally, if the modem was present, the jack was identified.

What I should also have said is that if the modem is not present, the 
jack is not connected to anything!
 
> Haven't had a chance to open it but the "other" jack appears to be a modem by
> the size of the jack being an RJ11 and other specs I've found at various
> places on the net. It boots quick though, especially for a 64K CP/M machine
> (once I figured out that I needed to lock the floppy drive). The modem isn't
> marked but as I said it seems to be. The unit is marked as a PN 81-025 on the
> back and is metallic blue with a light gray cover which is also the keyboard.
> It only says Kaypro on the screen print on the sides, not kaypro 2 like I've
> seen on other photos.
> 
> > > Anyone have any manuals for the actual machine they want to sell, trade
> > > or copy?
> >
> > They really did not exist.  Kaypro distributed a rather generic User
> > Guide that dated back to the early machines, and application specific
> > volumes for the bundled software and operating system.
> >
> > What are you looking for, I may be able to help.
> 
> Just things to add to this already nice machine. Books, manuals, other
> software, etc. I have all the original disks to include CP/M 2.2F and S-BASIC
> and C-BASIC plus some copied software. It will be the first of the year before
> I can really play with it and get used to it. Other than my Commie C128D it's
> been 8 or 10 yrs since I've been "into" CP/M when I had my Epson PX-8.

Hmmm!  I'd have expected CP/M-2.2G and MBASIC, WORDSTAR 3.30, 
CALC/DATA/REPORTSTAR, etc.
						 - don 



From dogas at leading.net  Wed Dec  9 18:16:37 1998
From: dogas at leading.net (Mike)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: single instance machines
Message-ID: <01be23d2$5a0a95a0$e9c962cf@devlaptop>

Joe, was this a response for the basic/four ?

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: single instance machines


>At 11:58 AM 12/9/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>
>>No, I have one also.
>> - don
>
>   What do you have for your's?  Do you have any of the manuals? I have
>quite a few but I'd like to get copies of any that I don't have, especially
>the service manuals for the 8" disk drives.
>
>   Joe
>
>



From eric at brouhaha.com  Wed Dec  9 18:26:59 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: Up for grabs:  Unusual video cable
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981209114106.485f8432@intellistar.net> (message from
	Joe on Wed, 09 Dec 1998 11:41:06)
References: <3.0.1.16.19981209114106.485f8432@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <19981210002659.20434.qmail@brouhaha.com>

> computer but only has the three co-axial connectors in the plug and no
> pins. The plug is the same size as a DB-15. The other end of the cable has
> the usual three BNC connectors for a RGB monitor.  Send beer money plus
> postage and this wonderfull treasure will be your's.

Sounds like a monitor cable for one of the later VAXstations.  If no one
else has spoken for it, I might be able to use it, since I just got a
VAXstation 4000 Model 60 last week.

Cheers,
Eric


From eric at brouhaha.com  Wed Dec  9 18:30:35 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: single instance machines
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981209144458.3ee7cf8a@intellistar.net> (message from
	Joe on Wed, 09 Dec 1998 14:44:58)
References: <199810060532.WAA28294@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <3.0.1.16.19981209144458.3ee7cf8a@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <19981210003035.20447.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Joe wrote:
>    Hmmm. I have two AT&T 3B1 model 310s. Does that count as one or two?

I think you must mean 3B2 model 310.

I've got one in my garage.

Eric



From zmerch at 30below.com  Wed Dec  9 18:39:16 1998
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:03 2005
Subject: single instance machines
In-Reply-To: <366F12C0.26F60786@rain.org>
References: <3.0.1.16.19981209193056.5107bb68@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981209193916.0090a5e0@mail.30below.com>

Once upon a midnight dreary, Marvin had spoken clearly:
>Joe wrote:
>> 
>>   I forgot.  I have two Tandy 6000 HDs.  Does anyone else still have one
of these? I think David W. does but he's missing the keyboard.
>
>I have one HD and one 6000 (floppy disk only.)

Wank a zero... I have a Tandy 600 (laptop)... but I think there's a few
others have one of those here...

My only other (ahem) claim to fame is I have a Commodore B-128, which are
kinda hard to come by (well, here in the great white north, anyway...
Like, take off, eh hoser!!! ;-)

Best I can do,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger


From donm at cts.com  Wed Dec  9 18:33:33 1998
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: single instance machines
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981209191005.4f2fd4fe@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Joe wrote:

> At 11:58 AM 12/9/98 -0800, you wrote:
> >
> >No, I have one also.
> >						 - don
> 
>    What do you have for your's?  Do you have any of the manuals? I have
> quite a few but I'd like to get copies of any that I don't have, especially
> the service manuals for the 8" disk drives.
> 
As I recall, Joe, they are regular Shugart SA-801's.  I have both the 
Maintenance and OEM manuals for them.
						 - don



From bill at chipware.com  Wed Dec  9 18:48:37 1998
From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981209130102.00aa0100@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: <000401be23d6$d2663640$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com>

Doug Yowza  wrote:
> I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance
> represented on this list. 

Well... At the risk of sounding like a broken record...
I have several varieties of Ohio Scientific C2s and C3s,
some C1s and Superboards.  I don't have proper software
for most of them (the C2s and C3s, that is, I have plenty
of C1/Superboard software on cassette... I'll have to try
the transfer to CD trick with it sometime).  I ask, I get
no response, maybe I have the only remaining examples of
some of these C2/C3 configurations.  I also wonder if I
have the largest Ohio Scientific collection in existence.

Bill


From dburrows at netpath.net  Wed Dec  9 18:36:24 1998
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Fw: Giving away Amiga500
Message-ID: <04d001be23d6$36f741e0$bf281bce@p166>

In case anyone is interested - from newsgroup.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: Justin 
Newsgroups: misc.forsale.computers.workstation
Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 6:32 AM
Subject: Giving away Amiga500


>That's right!
>I have one Amiga 500 with Monitor and TV adapter.
>
>It belonged to a relative and is in top condition.
>
>Reason: I am moving and it was one of those projects that I never got
>around to.
>
>You have until Friday night to respond, otherwise it goes in the trash.
>
>oh, and you have to work out how to pick it up.
>Cheers,
>Justin.



From simon at nenevr.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec  9 18:35:10 1998
From: simon at nenevr.demon.co.uk (Simon Coombs)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:

> > > I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance
> > > represented on this list. 
> 
> Any other PERQ-fanatics here? Any model of PERQ, I am not expecting 3a or 
> T4 owners to appear :-)
> 
> What about the HH Tiger, Nascom, Gemini Galaxy, Philips P850, etc?

I know of someone with a Nascom-II, although I don't own one personally. 
What I *do* have, though, is a Transdata Cx500. 2xDSDD 8", 64mb ram, Z80 
CPU with a second Z80 on the floppy controller board doing who knows 
what. I have yet to meet anyone else who has even *heard* of a Transdata 
computer. [1]

I've also got all the bits, barring the case, of a HM Systems Minstrel-2, 
complete with TurboDos manuals - S100-bus 80186 slave CPU cards, and all.

Was the Philips P850 the machine with 8" hard sectored disks? If so, I've 
got some spare for any interested parties in the UK. [2]

Regards,

Simon.

[1] I believe they might have made terminals and paper-tape stuff too...
[2] Apologies to anyone else; although if what's written here is true,
    you're all ankle-deep in classic machines anyway!

--
Simon Coombs                                simon@nenevr.demon.co.uk
Don't stand on ceremony; just bow low.      CP/M - The once and future O/S!



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec  9 19:02:35 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981209193328.51074e40@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Dec 9, 98 07:33:28 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec  9 19:03:15 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <199812092351.PAA13026@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Dec 9, 98 03:51:19 pm
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec  9 19:08:48 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To:  from "Simon Coombs" at Dec 10, 98 00:35:10 am
Message-ID: 

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From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com  Wed Dec  9 19:19:03 1998
From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I have one-and-a-third single instance machines...

My Cadnetix electronic circuit design workstation seems to be the only one
known to still exist.

And the 1/3 part is in the form of the "electronic" computer I'm building
from the January 1960 issue of Electronics Illustrated...(flip-flops,
light-bulbs, and a rotary phone dial - woo-hoo!) I'm about 1/3
completed...

Aaron C. Finney		Systems Administrator		WFI Incorporated
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant."



From pechter at monmouth.com  Wed Dec  9 19:22:45 1998
From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: DataGeneral "Eagle" ?
In-Reply-To: <199812092336.QAA15764@calico.litterbox.com> from Jim Strickland at "Dec 9, 98 04:36:05 pm"
Message-ID: <199812100122.UAA03904@monmouth.com>

> Hi.  It occurred to me to wonder if anyone has the 32bit Data General machine
> that was backward compatible with the Nova, and subject of the book "Soul of 
> the New Machine".  The project codename was Eagle, but I don't recall what
> the machine was called when it was actually produced.
> 
> Heh.  Serious collectable would be Gallifrey Eagle or one of the other 3
> prototype machines. :)
> -- 
> Jim Strickland
> jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com


Data General MV8000 and later the rest of the MV series... MV10000 etc.
Don't have one.  Interesting machines and a good book.

Bill
(just me and PDP and Vaxen here...)


From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Wed Dec  9 19:27:25 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: DataGeneral "Eagle" ?
In-Reply-To: <199812100122.UAA03904@monmouth.com> from "Bill Pechter" at Dec 09, 1998 08:22:45 PM
Message-ID: <199812100127.SAA16308@calico.litterbox.com>

> Data General MV8000 and later the rest of the MV series... MV10000 etc.
> Don't have one.  Interesting machines and a good book.
> 
> Bill
> (just me and PDP and Vaxen here...)
> 

Just remembered it was Eclipse compatible, not nova compatible.  They were 
using a micronova as a console, if memory serves.  Mind, I've never SEEN
one of these animals, just read the book. :)
-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com  Wed Dec  9 19:34:23 1998
From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: RT-11 v2.0 manual set question
Message-ID: 

Hi,

Thanks to the generous loan of three big binders full of RT-11 v2 manuals, 
I now have 20 megs of tiff images that might be of interest to others as
well. Three questions:

1) Is anyone aware of the current copyright status of these documents? Can
I give copies of such old manuals (1976) without worrying about possible
legal implications?

2) Depending on a favorable reply to question #1, would it benefit anyone
to have these available on-line? I currently have them broken
into chapters, anywhere from 600k to 4megs each (8.5"x11"@300dpi, BW)

3) If we got this far and they're going to be available over the internet,
does anyone have any requests to make specific formats available? I could
also make PDF and PostScript versions, or even make a wild attempt at
OCRing them (thought that would destroy tables/graphics)...



Aaron C. Finney		Systems Administrator		WFI Incorporated
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant."



From scott at isd.canberra.edu.au  Wed Dec  9 19:50:05 1998
From: scott at isd.canberra.edu.au (Scott McLauchlan)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Fw: Giving away Amiga500
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19981210125003.009a4c70@cts.canberra.edu.au>

At 19:36 9/12/98 -0500, Daniel T. Burrows  wrote:
>In case anyone is interested - from newsgroup.
>Dan
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Justin 
>Newsgroups: misc.forsale.computers.workstation
>Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 6:32 AM
>Subject: Giving away Amiga500
>
>
>>That's right!
>>I have one Amiga 500 with Monitor and TV adapter.
>>
>>It belonged to a relative and is in top condition.
>>
>>Reason: I am moving and it was one of those projects that I never got
>>around to.
>>
>>You have until Friday night to respond, otherwise it goes in the trash.
>>
>>oh, and you have to work out how to pick it up.
>>Cheers,
>>Justin.

Just to help anyone who's interested, it seems this A500 is in Adelaide
(pasteur.dialix.com.au is Dialix's Adelaide server).

Regards,

|         Scott McLauchlan          |E-Mail: scott@cts.canberra.edu.au |
|       Network Services Team       |Phone : +61 2 6201 5544 (Ext.5544)|
|      Client Services Division     |Post  : University of Canberra,   |
| University of Canberra, AUSTRALIA |        ACT, 2601, AUSTRALIA.     |


From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au  Wed Dec  9 19:57:12 1998
From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Up for grabs:  Unusual video cable
Message-ID: <003801be23e0$747195c0$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Thursday, 10 December 1998 3:10
Subject: Up for grabs: Unusual video cable


>Still finding more junk ^H^H^H^H er, ah, treasures.  Found this video cable
>but I have no idea what it's for. It looks like a 13W3 cable for a Sun
>computer but only has the three co-axial connectors in the plug and no
>pins. The plug is the same size as a DB-15. The other end of the cable has
>the usual three BNC connectors for a RGB monitor.

Sounds a bit like a Digital Vaxstation monitor cable.  Does it have a part
no on it and/or a |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| logo?


>Send beer money plus
>postage and this wonderfull treasure will be your's.


I think the postage to Oz might be prohibitive, or I would.

Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Systems Manager
Saint Marks College
Port Pirie  South Australia.
My ICQ# is 1970476
Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile)
      61-8-8633-0619 (Home)
      61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct)
      61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Wed Dec  9 20:01:39 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: RT-11 v2.0 manual set question
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote:

> 3) If we got this far and they're going to be available over the internet,
> does anyone have any requests to make specific formats available? I could
> also make PDF and PostScript versions, or even make a wild attempt at
> OCRing them (thought that would destroy tables/graphics)...

Eric Smith's method of adding the OCR'd text as "invisible text" to PDF
documents sounds good.  I'm going to probably do all my scans that way on
documents that demand it due to graphics and tables.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]




From rcini at msn.com  Wed Dec  9 19:07:36 1998
From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Indexing Byte
Message-ID: <007201be23e0$80a50f20$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>

On Tue, 08 Dec 1998 08:36:08 -0600, John Foust  wrote:

>>The article compendiums that are offered for Byte,
>>DDJ, etc. are interesting, but so are the ads, and they aren't included.

    I think that the ads are fantastic. I was about 13 in 1980, and I
remember going to the public library to read these mags. So, when I see
these ads I sort of have Deja Vu. If you look at the Bytes from 1978 through
1983, you can see the change in focus among the hardware platforms. It's
sort of like watching a flower bloom in slow motion.

[  Rich Cini/WUGNET
[   ClubWin!/CW7
[   MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
[   Collector of "classic" computers
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/
<================   reply   separator  =================>






From rcini at msn.com  Wed Dec  9 19:10:19 1998
From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Indexing Byte and using BibTex
Message-ID: <007301be23e0$83a92760$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>

Does anyone have any experience using BiBTex on the PeeCee? I downloaded the
Byte indices from 1975 to 1990, but I was not able to D/L any of the
non-Unix tools from the site I was on.

Any recommendations as to tools are welcome. Thanks.

[  Rich Cini/WUGNET
[   ClubWin!/CW7
[   MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
[   Collector of "classic" computers
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/
<================   reply   separator  =================>






From rcini at msn.com  Wed Dec  9 19:15:55 1998
From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Latest Project: homebrew paper tape reader
Message-ID: <007401be23e0$867036a0$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>

Well, another project to further divide my free time...

    I saw a project in one of my old Bytes for a hand-pulled paper tape
reader. Very simple - 9 photodiodes, a light, a latch, a pulse-stretcher,
and some guide posts.

    Well, here's the parts I have lying around: a BasicStamp-II, two R/C
servos modified for constant running, a few switches, and photodiodes.

    If I get this thing working over the Christmas holiday, I'll post a
construction article.

    Any recommendations for rubber pinch rollers? I'm thinking rubber
stoppers from a plumbing supply shop. These are pre-drilled and come with a
washer, bolt, and wing nut.


[  Rich Cini/WUGNET
[   ClubWin!/CW7
[   MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
[   Collector of "classic" computers
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/
<================   reply   separator  =================>






From healyzh at aracnet.com  Wed Dec  9 20:16:40 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812092351.PAA13026@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at
 Dec 9, 98 03:51:19 pm
Message-ID: 

>> I don't have a PDP-11 -- that's unusual in this crowd. >;-)
>
>This must be the only list were _not_ owning a minicomputer is unusual :-)

Shouldn't that be, not owning several Minicomputers is unusual :^)

		Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Wed Dec  9 20:25:02 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
References: <19981209.140221.277.3.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "Jeffrey l
 Kaneko" at Dec 9, 98 02:01:08 pm
Message-ID: 

>What about machines that almost everyone has, but a few don't? I don't
>have a Vic20, for example, which is probably pretty unusual.

Actually, the VIC-20's seem to be fairly hard to get now days.

My oddist machine is odd enough that I don't even know what it is, other
than some sort of UNIX box.  Of course it's went directly to storage thanks
to it's size and I've not found time to play with it.

I did pass on a 'Sony NEWS' machine a couple weeks ago.  Almost picked it
up because I've NEVER seen one.

		Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From zmerch at 30below.com  Wed Dec  9 20:34:57 1998
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Usual?!?!?!
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
 <199812092351.PAA13026@oa.ptloma.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981209213457.00944c70@mail.30below.com>

Once upon a midnight dreary, Zane H. Healy had spoken clearly:

>>> I don't have a PDP-11 -- that's unusual in this crowd. >;-)
>>
>>This must be the only list were _not_ owning a minicomputer is unusual :-)
>
>Shouldn't that be, not owning several Minicomputers is unusual :^)

Damn!!!

Just when I finally found a group I thought I was somewhat *normal* in...
I find I'm unusual in this one, too! ;-)

Will I *ever* fit in?????

"Merch"


From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au  Wed Dec  9 20:31:36 1998
From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Latest Project: homebrew paper tape reader
Message-ID: <00f901be23e5$424120c0$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>


-----Original Message-----
From: Richard A. Cini, Jr. 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Thursday, 10 December 1998 13:38
Subject: Latest Project: homebrew paper tape reader


>Well, another project to further divide my free time...
>
>    I saw a project in one of my old Bytes for a hand-pulled paper tape
>reader. Very simple - 9 photodiodes, a light, a latch, a pulse-stretcher,
>and some guide posts.

Hmmm, any chance you could post/email the circuit and article?  Might be
able to help.

>    Well, here's the parts I have lying around: a BasicStamp-II, two R/C
>servos modified for constant running, a few switches, and photodiodes.
>
>    If I get this thing working over the Christmas holiday, I'll post a
>construction article.
>
>    Any recommendations for rubber pinch rollers? I'm thinking rubber
>stoppers from a plumbing supply shop. These are pre-drilled and come with a
>washer, bolt, and wing nut.


How about some VHS VCR Pinch Rollers.  They'd be around the right size. In
fact, might not some of the tape path components be used to make it a
motorised version?  A repairer probably has a swag of used ones that have
gone a bit concave or slick to be any good in a VCR, but probably just fine
for what you want.
You might also ask around the ham radio community, lots of Siemens
teleprinters have tape facilities.  Baudot of course, but some of the
transport might be useful.  You might even get lucky and find something that
handles ascii tape.  Some later machines, like the SAGEM certainly had it as
an option.  RTTY has pretty much gone computer these days, so you might find
there are lots laying about gathering dust.

Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Systems Manager
Saint Marks College
Port Pirie  South Australia.
My ICQ# is 1970476
Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile)
      61-8-8633-0619 (Home)
      61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct)
      61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)



From Watzman at ibm.net  Wed Dec  9 19:02:15 1998
From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: FSOT: Commodore GPIB cable.
Message-ID: <01BE23BC.0BEDA4E0@slip-32-100-187-145.oh.us.ibm.net>

The Northstar disk system was quite an item in its day, when it came out it was the lowest price floppy disk system on the market, by about half (it was under $500, and most other SINGLE drive systems were $1,000).  That's because it was the FIRST commercially available system to use a 5.25" drive rather than an 8" drive.  The drive was the Shugart SA-400, I believe (could have the number wrong), a full-size 5.25" drive.  As used by Northstar, it was a 35 track drive with ten sectors per track (hard sectored), 256 bytes per sector, I think, total capacity as formatted was 80k or so (with some reserved area) (single sided, single density, of course).

The controller was dumb, mostly just gates controlled by software.  To step the drive, the software wrote alternating, and properly timed, "1's" and "0's" to a port or an address (my recollection is that the controller was memory mapped).  All of the work was done at a very low level in the operating system, which was also dumb, it only supported contiguous files and you had to "compact" the disk whenever holes were created by deleting a file.

Many of us made our first move from paper or (audio) magnetic tape to disk with this system, and crude as the system was, it was a HUGE advance at the time.

And a small New York city software firm, Lifeboat associates, became quite prominent in part because they managed to put CP/M on the Northstar system, a major feat at the time as CP/M had been pretty much exclusively set up for standard 8" SSSD drives (in fact, in versions 1.3 and to a lesser extent 1.4, it was hard coded this way in the BDOS, but in version 2.2 it became table driven so that other formats were more easily accommodated).  The two principles in Lifeboat I knew quite well, Tony Gold, who was mostly a promoter, sales type and businessman, and I can't remember the name of the primary programmer who did most of the actual software development work, but at the time I knew him quite well and worked closely with him on porting CP/M to the Heathkit products.  I will remember his name shortly after I "send" this message.

I still have source code (disassembled and commented) for the Northstar Disk operating system.

Barry Watzman


----------
From:  Jeffrey l Kaneko [SMTP:jeff.kaneko@juno.com]
Sent:  Wednesday, December 09, 1998 9:53 AM
To:  Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject:  Re: FSOT: Commodore GPIB cable.

Joe:

Okay, I have something that may interest you.  One of Northstar's
first products, was a floppy disk drive, that could be used with
Altairs (among others).  I have a pair of these 5.25" drives in an
aluminum/wooden cabinet.

There are inscriptions inside giving dates that it was built up, 
upgraded, etc.  I don't remember the exact dates, but it seems that
it was built in 1977.

I have reason to believe the drives are original; one still has the
N* nameplate attached thereto.  The wooden top cover is in decent 
shape, has a small bit of wood chipped from a front corner.

If this is interesting, I can get more particulars-- especially
corrolation of the dates with the actual Altair/Imsai/N* product
release timelines.

Jeff

On Wed, 09 Dec 1998 08:45:24 Joe  writes:
>Jeff,
>
>  That one is sold but I have another one that's still new in the bag. 
> I'm
>looking for anything for my Altair, anything for my Tektronix 4051 or 
>HP
>calculator or computer stuff. Machines, parts, manuals or whatever.
>
>  Joe
>
>At 08:31 PM 12/8/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>Joe:
>>
>>I could sure use this.  WHat sort of trades are you looking for?
>>
>>Jeff
>>
>>On Tue, 08 Dec 1998 14:17:39 Joe  writes:
>>>Commodore marked cable with a card edge connector on one end and a
>>>male/female GPIB connectors on the other. Contact me if interested.
>>>
>>>  Joe
>>>
>>>
>>
>>___________________________________________________________________
>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at 
>http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>>
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]




From cfandt at netsync.net  Wed Dec  9 20:50:47 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4.1.19981209130102.00aa0100@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981209210741.00aaf440@206.231.8.2>

At 19:51 12/09/98 +0000, Tony Duell wrote:
>> 
>> Doug Yowza  wrote:
>> > I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance
>> > represented on this list. 
>
>Any other PERQ-fanatics here? Any model of PERQ, I am not expecting 3a or 
>T4 owners to appear :-)

I have a feeling you would be the only person within our list and perhaps
most other computer collectors who has a PERQ. I never seen one, know very
little about them, but nevertheless, over the years (10+ years ago) I had
occasionally heard of them.

>
>What about the HH Tiger, Nascom, Gemini Galaxy, Philips P850, etc?
>
>> 
>> Anybody have an HP250-30, IBM 9370, Tektronix 31 (kinda like the 9825)?
>
>You _have_ a Tek 31? Wow! I've heard of it (and the similar 21), but 
>never seen one.

Yep. I got it out of a huge batch of equipment auctioned from the
IBM-Endicott plant when it was severely "downsized" around 1984. It
apparently controlled some sort of tester for those square metal modules
one sees on IBM pc boards (what are they called again William D.?) 

Never heard of a TEK 31 myself  'till then. When I saw it I figured I had
better grab it since I felt it was a rather rare thing even back then. I
don't recall finding anything on it in my collection of older TEK catalogs.

The machine works. Has a tape cartridge with a program that I printed out.
Language was fairly easy to figure out (sorta like HPL found on the HP
9825's, etc.) Has an LED display and a thermal printer, again similar to
the 9825. Been at least a dozen years since I looked inside, but I don't
recall any LSI-type chips as main brains. I think it's all TTL. IIRC, the
chips were dated around mid-70's. I'll look again for you sometime. 

*Finally*, last year I got a TEK 31 operator's manual. Got it from somebody
advertising having it for sale in one of the antique radio groups, of all
places, on Usenet. But it's in French!! (Came out of French Canada.) Have
to recall the several years of French class I had in high school a
lo-o-o-ng time ago:)

Probably will *never* find any more tape cartidges for it so I can't write
programs and save 'em and otherwise have fun with it :(

Was the TEK 21 you mentioned above earlier than the TEK 31 or just
different in other ways?

>
>However, I do have the service manual for the 4661 plotter that goes with 
>these machines. I'm not getting rid of it - I have a 4662 plotter and 
>much of the mechanics is the same - but I can provide info from it.

Are these plotters similar in concept to the 4331 printers? Used a special
thermal paper I think. Such printer could hang off my TEK 4015-1 graphics
terminal and print directly from the screen. The 401x series had an X-Y
analog plotter output for actual plotting.

>
>Here is the pinout of the calculator I/O connector. 

Evidently in that service manual it mentions the plotter could hang off a
TEK 31, true? If so, then this is indeed the connector pinout for my TEK
31? I got a 1 meter long cable with it too. 
  --  snipped pin list for brevity --

>> 
>> Also, I haven't heard of anyone in our own group on the list mentioning
>> they have a DG Nova 1200.
>
>I have an incomplete (still missing the lights-and-switches board) Nova 
>1210 here.

Hmmm, I have to check but I *think* there is something about 1210's in the
DG Nova printset I have. I know there's schemas for the 1200 and 800
machines. I'll let you know if I run across them while unpacking stuff.
Remind me early next year Tony.

Regards,  Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Dec  9 22:51:28 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Up for grabs:  Unusual video cable
In-Reply-To: <003801be23e0$747195c0$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic
 .edu.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981209225128.4cb7fb7e@intellistar.net>

At 12:27 PM 12/10/98 +1030, you wrote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Joe 
>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
>
>Date: Thursday, 10 December 1998 3:10
>Subject: Up for grabs: Unusual video cable
>
>
>>Still finding more junk ^H^H^H^H er, ah, treasures.  Found this video cable
>>but I have no idea what it's for. It looks like a 13W3 cable for a Sun
>>computer but only has the three co-axial connectors in the plug and no
>>pins. The plug is the same size as a DB-15. The other end of the cable has
>>the usual three BNC connectors for a RGB monitor.
>
>Sounds a bit like a Digital Vaxstation monitor cable.  Does it have a part
>no on it and/or a |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| logo?
>
  No, that would have been too easy. The name on it is "Advanced
Interconnect", there are a couple of numbers on it "6247661-P001" and
"PAM3W3P 9032".

>
>>Send beer money plus
>>postage and this wonderfull treasure will be your's.
>
>
>I think the postage to Oz might be prohibitive, or I would.

   I'd settle for some of that good Aussie beer :-) :-) :-) :-)

   Joe
>
>Cheers
>
>Geoff Roberts
>Computer Systems Manager
>Saint Marks College
>Port Pirie  South Australia.
>My ICQ# is 1970476
>Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile)
>      61-8-8633-0619 (Home)
>      61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct)
>      61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)
>
>



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Dec  9 22:56:34 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Latest Project: homebrew paper tape reader
In-Reply-To: <007401be23e0$867036a0$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981209225634.4cb7887c@intellistar.net>

At 08:15 PM 12/9/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Well, another project to further divide my free time...
>
>    I saw a project in one of my old Bytes for a hand-pulled paper tape
>reader. Very simple - 9 photodiodes, a light, a latch, a pulse-stretcher,
>and some guide posts.
>
>    Well, here's the parts I have lying around: a BasicStamp-II, two R/C
>servos modified for constant running, a few switches, and photodiodes.
>
>    If I get this thing working over the Christmas holiday, I'll post a
>construction article.
>
  Sounds like a good wayto spent your vacation!

>    Any recommendations for rubber pinch rollers? I'm thinking rubber
>stoppers from a plumbing supply shop. These are pre-drilled and come with a
>washer, bolt, and wing nut.

  I don't think will work, they're tapered not straight. It will make the
tape run on the one side.  I would rubber drive wheels out of an old tape
drive or the rollers out of an old printer (or copier). Printer rollers
would be too wide and would have to be cut down. The metal shaft goes all
the way through so you could cut it shorter and then trim the rubber back
to expose the shaft.

  Joe
>
>
>[  Rich Cini/WUGNET
>[   ClubWin!/CW7
>[   MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
>[   Collector of "classic" computers
>[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
>[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/
><================   reply   separator  =================>
>
>
>
>
>



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Dec  9 22:59:58 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: single instance machines
In-Reply-To: <199812102332.SAA12426@armigeron.com>
References: <3.0.1.16.19981209193056.5107bb68@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981209225958.4cb7405e@intellistar.net>

At 06:32 PM 12/10/98 -0500, Sean wrote:
>It was thus said that the Great Joe once stated:
>> 
>>   I forgot.  I have two Tandy 6000 HDs.  Does anyone else still have one of
>> these? I think David W. does but he's missing the keyboard.
>
>  I have two of them, both with keyboards, 15M harddrives and 8" floppy
>drives.  One works, and I think the other works, but I haven't tested it
>since I got it home, dropped it and pretty much smashed the case.
>

Sean,

  You're down here in Florida too aren't you?  I'm in Orlando.  We should
get together and compare collections one day.  Phil Clayton is also here in
Florida.

   Joe



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Dec  9 23:04:42 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: single instance machines
In-Reply-To: <01be23d2$5a0a95a0$e9c962cf@devlaptop>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981209230442.4cb7dc86@intellistar.net>

Mike,

  No. It was in response to Don saying that he also had a Tek 4051.

   Joe

At 07:16 PM 12/9/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Joe, was this a response for the basic/four ?
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Joe 
>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
>
>Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 6:50 PM
>Subject: Re: single instance machines
>
>
>>At 11:58 AM 12/9/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>>
>>>No, I have one also.
>>> - don
>>
>>   What do you have for your's?  Do you have any of the manuals? I have
>>quite a few but I'd like to get copies of any that I don't have, especially
>>the service manuals for the 8" disk drives.
>>
>>   Joe
>>
>>
>
>



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Dec  9 23:05:42 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Up for grabs:  Unusual video cable
In-Reply-To: <19981210002659.20434.qmail@brouhaha.com>
References: <3.0.1.16.19981209114106.485f8432@intellistar.net>
 <3.0.1.16.19981209114106.485f8432@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981209230542.4d8757b8@intellistar.net>

Eric,

  OK  I'll add it to you box of stuff.

   Joe

At 12:26 AM 12/10/98 -0000, you wrote:
>> computer but only has the three co-axial connectors in the plug and no
>> pins. The plug is the same size as a DB-15. The other end of the cable has
>> the usual three BNC connectors for a RGB monitor.  Send beer money plus
>> postage and this wonderfull treasure will be your's.
>
>Sounds like a monitor cable for one of the later VAXstations.  If no one
>else has spoken for it, I might be able to use it, since I just got a
>VAXstation 4000 Model 60 last week.
>
>Cheers,
>Eric
>



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Dec  9 23:20:16 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Tek 31 was Re: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981209210741.00aaf440@206.231.8.2>
References: 
 <4.1.19981209130102.00aa0100@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981209232016.4aff716c@intellistar.net>

At 09:50 PM 12/9/98 -0500, Christian wrote:

>>You _have_ a Tek 31? Wow! I've heard of it (and the similar 21), but 
>>never seen one.
>
>
>Probably will *never* find any more tape cartidges for it so I can't write
>programs and save 'em and otherwise have fun with it :(


   What do the tapes for it look like? I wonder if they're the same as the
ones fo the 4051?  My 4051 manual says that they're standard DC 300 tapes.
I got one tape with the machine. I have no idea how hard DC 300s are to
find anymore.

  Joe




From transit at primenet.com  Wed Dec  9 21:39:05 1998
From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Fw: Giving away Amiga500
In-Reply-To: <04d001be23d6$36f741e0$bf281bce@p166>
Message-ID: 

> >You have until Friday night to respond, otherwise it goes in the trash.

TRASH?!??!?!?

Aren't they're any Goodwill or Salvation Army thrift stores where you
are?



From allisonp at world.std.com  Wed Dec  9 21:58:15 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: DataGeneral "Eagle" ?
Message-ID: <199812100358.AA14306@world.std.com>


< that was backward compatible with the Nova, and subject of the book "Sou
< the New Machine".  The project codename was Eagle, but I don't recall wh
< the machine was called when it was actually produced.

Eclipse, as it was supposed to overshadow the VAX and was consistant with
earlier celestial naming (Nova).

Allison




From rws at eagle.ais.net  Wed Dec  9 22:33:52 1998
From: rws at eagle.ais.net (Richard W. Schauer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To:  from "Zane H. Healy" at "Dec 9, 98 06:25:02 pm"
Message-ID: <199812100433.WAA20768@eagle.ais.net>

> >What about machines that almost everyone has, but a few don't? I don't
> >have a Vic20, for example, which is probably pretty unusual.

I haven't got one either, but someone promised me one if they ever find it
in their closet.

I seem to be pretty good at picking up orphan junk- try these:

- Point Four Data Systems Mark 3 mini (4* 2903) with CDC Lark 25/25 drive.
- Litton Monroe 7860.  Micro with hinge-up cover, full sheet printer
(shove the paper into the side of the machine and it prints it and spits
it back out), fluorescent display, and minicassette drive (not standard,
not micro, somewhere in between.) 8085 based.
- Wang OIS-60X word processing server and terminals.  Z80.
- CPT 8525 word processor.  8080.
- NCR UNIX Tower.  Don't know yet.
- All sorts of Intel and Teradyne Multibus cards (8080, 8088, 8086, 80188,
80186, 80286), and a Microlink STD-145 card (8085, STD bus).

The biggest problem with oddball junk is doing something useful with it.
Most of the above are of somewhat limited utility to me because they're
so obscure and hard to find stuff for (like the little cassettes or
cartridges for the Monroe).

Anyone else have a Diablo hardcopy terminal, the kind that looks like a
typewriter sitting on a desk, but it's actually a part of the desk, and
the desk contains a big cardcage with boards full of 7400-series logic?
I forget the model number offhand and it's a block away from here.

Richard Schauer
rws@ais.net



From wpfulmor at dimensional.com  Wed Dec  9 22:44:11 1998
From: wpfulmor at dimensional.com (William Fulmor)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: single instance machines
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981209191953.0b1f6b98@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Joe wrote:

>   That's a brain-fart. It should have said 3B2.

Oh.  I've done that.

> >Anyway, I got ~~20 unixpc/7300/3b1 in various stages of operation -->
> >decomposition. 

Forgot to add that it was my first and only computer [type].  That's the
'single instance' part.

Bill



From scott at isd.canberra.edu.au  Wed Dec  9 22:49:11 1998
From: scott at isd.canberra.edu.au (Scott McLauchlan)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: WHOOPEE!
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19981210154910.008ad100@cts.canberra.edu.au>

At 19:26 8/12/98 +0000, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:

>All devices 'directly 
>or indirectly connected' to the phone system have to be approved. This 
>includes acoustic couplers, BTW, which have to be unable to send certain 
>tones down the line.

Doesn't that mean that, in theory at least, all FM radios would have to be
approved if you wanted to listen to a talkback radio programme where people
called in via the phone?  Surely that would mean your FM radio was
(indirectly) connected to the phone system.

I would have thought it would also mean that your computer would have to be
approved if it were "indirectly" connected to the phone system via a modem.

Or is the legislation worded carefully enough to avoid this?

Regards,

|         Scott McLauchlan          |E-Mail: scott@cts.canberra.edu.au |
|       Network Services Team       |Phone : +61 2 6201 5544 (Ext.5544)|
|      Client Services Division     |Post  : University of Canberra,   |
| University of Canberra, AUSTRALIA |        ACT, 2601, AUSTRALIA.     |


From donm at cts.com  Wed Dec  9 23:25:38 1998
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Up for grabs: Unusual video cable
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981209225128.4cb7fb7e@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: 

 At 12:27 PM 12/10/98 +1030, you wrote:
 >-----Original Message-----
 >From: Joe 
 >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
 >
 >Date: Thursday, 10 December 1998 3:10
 >Subject: Up for grabs: Unusual video cable
 >
 >
 >>Still finding more junk ^H^H^H^H er, ah, treasures.  Found this video cable
 >>but I have no idea what it's for. It looks like a 13W3 cable for a Sun
 >>computer but only has the three co-axial connectors in the plug and no
 >>pins. The plug is the same size as a DB-15. The other end of the cable has
 >>the usual three BNC connectors for a RGB monitor.
 >

 Didn't the later Macintosh computers use a 15-pin D-sub connector for 
 their monitors?  Would they have use for an RGB output?

						 - don
 


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Wed Dec  9 23:26:38 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <199812100433.WAA20768@eagle.ais.net>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Richard W. Schauer wrote:

> I seem to be pretty good at picking up orphan junk- try these:
> 
> - Point Four Data Systems Mark 3 mini (4* 2903) with CDC Lark 25/25 drive.
> - Litton Monroe 7860.  Micro with hinge-up cover, full sheet printer
> (shove the paper into the side of the machine and it prints it and spits
> it back out), fluorescent display, and minicassette drive (not standard,
> not micro, somewhere in between.) 8085 based.
> - Wang OIS-60X word processing server and terminals.  Z80.
> - CPT 8525 word processor.  8080.

Wow, these are some pretty interesting machines.  Especially the Litton
Monroe one.  Do you have pictures you can put up on a web site somewhere?

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From jeff.kaneko at juno.com  Wed Dec  9 22:26:17 1998
From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
Message-ID: <19981209.222656.253.3.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>



On Wed, 9 Dec 1998 22:33:52 -0600 (CST) "Richard W. Schauer"
 writes:
>- Wang OIS-60X word processing server and terminals.  Z80.
>- CPT 8525 word processor.  8080.
>- NCR UNIX Tower.  Don't know yet.
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I have the 68010 version of this, *and* I have the OS install tape!
You are one of two people I know who has NCR hardware!

>- All sorts of Intel and Teradyne Multibus cards (8080, 8088, 8086, 
>80188,80186, 80286), and a Microlink STD-145 card (8085, STD bus).

My NCR uses MultiBUS.  I also have one of 3Com's 1st products:
A multibus ethernet adaptor!  Now all I need is a TCP/IP stack, 
heh heh!

>The biggest problem with oddball junk is doing something useful with 
>it.

In the NCR case, this is definitely a problem . . .

>Most of the above are of somewhat limited utility to me because 
>they're so obscure and hard to find stuff for (like the little cassettes
or
>cartridges for the Monroe).
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Wed Dec  9 23:44:28 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: BCS Computer Conservation Society in the UK
Message-ID: 


Are you folks in the UK aware of the BCS Computer Conservation Society?

http://www.galactic.co.uk/iainf/ccs.html

It seems like they have some good vintage computer activies going on
there.


Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From ddameron at earthlink.net  Thu Dec 10 00:04:28 1998
From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Dr. Dobbs..
Message-ID: <199812100604.WAA18252@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

Hi Sam and all,
At 12:53 PM 12/8/98 -0800, you wrote:

>> Reading through this stuff, I'm reminded that I don't have copies of the
>> earlier PCC stuff or any of the earlier club newsletters.  Photocopy 
>> trades, anyone?
>
>I need copies of the PCC newsletter and volume 1 of the Homebrew Computer
>Club newsletter (I have Vol 2- the end).

How long did HBCC go? I have Volume 2, No 1 with Bill G's open letter and
many after. Maybe The Vol. 2 No 1 will fetch a good price to go with some
microsoft employee's Altair :-). Am sure I have some earlier ones (1975)
someplace???

Speaking of "Single instance" things, what about documentation? (Not too
much with commercial HW yet..) I have the 4 issues of the Scelbi newsletter,
looks like they were printed on an asr 33, like a lot of their stuff. Also
have now the 10 issues of "Computer Hobbyist". Anyone have any of the
"Amateur Computer Society" newsletters? 
-Dave

>
>Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Always being hassled by the man.
>
>                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
>                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
>                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]
>
>
>



From red at bears.org  Thu Dec 10 00:07:02 1998
From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981209130102.00aa0100@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Christian Fandt wrote:

> Also, I haven't heard of anyone in our own group on the list mentioning
> they have a DG Nova 1200.

No, but I do have an original Nova (no designation)

-- 
ok
r.					r e d  @  b e a r s . o r g
					===========================
					[ urs longa | vita brevis ]



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Dec 10 00:25:25 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Emulated VAX on the Mac
Message-ID: 

Whoa, I'm more than a little stunned, of course it was only a matter of
time.  It looks like someone has been working on a VAX emulator, also
sounds like he might be interested in some help.  Apparently it won't boot
VMS :^( but it will run some assembler programs.  It's Mac only, but since
it's a Codewarrior project written using SIOUX it should be portable to
UNIX.

http://users.vnet.net/cole/evax.html

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Thu Dec 10 00:22:04 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Dr. Dobbs..
In-Reply-To: <199812100604.WAA18252@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, dave dameron wrote:

> >I need copies of the PCC newsletter and volume 1 of the Homebrew Computer
> >Club newsletter (I have Vol 2- the end).
> 
> How long did HBCC go? I have Volume 2, No 1 with Bill G's open letter and
> many after. Maybe The Vol. 2 No 1 will fetch a good price to go with some
> microsoft employee's Altair :-). Am sure I have some earlier ones (1975)
> someplace???

I THINK I have up thru volume 4.  I'll have to check when I get back home.
I'd be interested in copies of anything you have from Vol. 1.

> Speaking of "Single instance" things, what about documentation? (Not too
> much with commercial HW yet..) I have the 4 issues of the Scelbi newsletter,
> looks like they were printed on an asr 33, like a lot of their stuff. Also
> have now the 10 issues of "Computer Hobbyist". Anyone have any of the
> "Amateur Computer Society" newsletters? 

Never heard of either "Computer Hobbyist" or "Amateur Computer Society"
but I'd love to trade copies of those for copies of what I have.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From red at bears.org  Thu Dec 10 00:35:11 1998
From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Up for grabs:  Unusual video cable
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:

> DA15, surely? Same as an ethernet AUI connector shell.
> Sounds like the video cable for a VAXstation or DECstation. No, I am not 

Apollo workstations also use that connector on their colour framebuffers.


-- 
ok
r.					r e d  @  b e a r s . o r g
					===========================
					[ urs longa | vita brevis ]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Thu Dec 10 00:48:11 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: New links added to the VCF Links page
Message-ID: 


I added a buttload of links to the VCF Links page (mostly to the Computer
History Resources on the Web section).

http://www.vintage.org/vcf/vcflinks.htm

Take a gander!  Submit a link!

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/09/98]



From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com  Thu Dec 10 02:03:52 1998
From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


> > Well, it may just be a case of marketing in a popular journal, but
> > NONE of the above appeared on my radar screen as a curious teenager
> 
> A lot of them are UK/European designs -- the MK14 was essentially a 
> Sinclair product, the Nascom was a UK machine (that begat the Gemini 

One item in my collection is a project that used a Sinclair 16K 
expansion module for one of those very price competitive home computers.
It lives on an S-100 Vector board wire-wrapped to a TMS9918 display
processor (used in the TI99/4) - wish I could find the 9918 manual,
kinda worthless w/o it, and the software lost in tape.

> 
> Now, I don't want to start another silly Europe .vs. USA flamewar. And I 

's why I avoid discussions about 'first', 'best' and just stick to
techy facts - and fact is I turned to Europe for support for an
Atari St ( >10yrs ) in the late eighties when support was drying
up here, like ST Format mag - hey, here's the Maastricht treaty
on an St disk, heh. Buying software (Lemmings, Stealth Fighter)
was my first trans-atlantic cc transaction went very smoothly,
thank you.

> States. But I am truely suprised that the Altair should be 2 orders of 
> magnitude (at least) more valuable than any of the above.
> 

Debates on 'value' is another volitile subject - just look at the
book or radio collectors. Whether a book has a dot on the
'i' on page 39, line 13 or not can grotesquely alter the value
to someone. Most people think that's crazy!


	Chuck
	cswiger@widomaker.com




From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com  Thu Dec 10 02:13:44 1998
From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Usual?!?!?!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981209213457.00944c70@mail.30below.com>
Message-ID: 


> >>> I don't have a PDP-11 -- that's unusual in this crowd. >;-)
> >>>

Hmmm... scanning the local trading paper reveals a PDP 11/23 for
sale - 96K memory and 40Mb disk -  $200 ?? Should I snap it up
or pass it up - of course the preferable acquisition methode is
smoozing with local schools/universities/business and catch 'em
before they hit the dumpster.

A MicroVAX in the local surplus store disappeared before I could
go back and get the details - darn it.

	Chuck
	cswiger@widomaker.com





From yowza at yowza.com  Thu Dec 10 02:55:21 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote:

> And the 1/3 part is in the form of the "electronic" computer I'm building
> from the January 1960 issue of Electronics Illustrated...(flip-flops,
> light-bulbs, and a rotary phone dial - woo-hoo!) I'm about 1/3
> completed...

One of my favorite early personal computers!  I regret that the designer
didn't give it a name, though.  Specs:

Name: "Electronic Computer"
Intro: Jan 1960
Price: approx $35
Technology: discrete transistors
Memory: 6 bits
Input: rotary telephone dial
Clock speed: as fast as you can dial
Output: 12 incandescent lights
Programming language: patch cords

The author describes how to add, subtract, multiply, and divide on this
box, but it's really more of a calculator than a computer since it doesn't
have control logic or a clock.

I hope to do a web page some day that describes this machine and several
other home computers from the 1950's and 1960's.

-- Doug



From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com  Thu Dec 10 03:57:55 1998
From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: E.I. Homebuilt Computer (was Re: "Single instance" machines)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:

> On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote:
> 
> > And the 1/3 part is in the form of the "electronic" computer I'm building
> > from the January 1960 issue of Electronics Illustrated...(flip-flops,
> > light-bulbs, and a rotary phone dial - woo-hoo!) I'm about 1/3
> > completed...
> 
> One of my favorite early personal computers!  I regret that the designer
> didn't give it a name, though.  Specs:
> 
> Name: "Electronic Computer"
> Intro: Jan 1960
> Price: approx $35
> Technology: discrete transistors
> Memory: 6 bits
> Input: rotary telephone dial
> Clock speed: as fast as you can dial
> Output: 12 incandescent lights
> Programming language: patch cords
> 
> The author describes how to add, subtract, multiply, and divide on this
> box, but it's really more of a calculator than a computer since it doesn't
> have control logic or a clock.
> 
> I hope to do a web page some day that describes this machine and several
> other home computers from the 1950's and 1960's.

Did you actually build one of these? I was thinking of taking the author's
suggestion and upgrading the memory to 10 bits...

Do you have the magazine? If you don't, and get around to putting up a web
page, I'll gladly scan the article to put on it. Actually, if anyone else
is interested, I could scan it and make it available for anyone who want's
to hack around on it. Pretty cool, actually.

Off topic, but one of the more interesting little articles in the magazine
is about the harmful effects of microwaves and describes in gory detail
how animals were adversely affected by them in experiments. What a
different time...just for fun I typed it in and stuck it here, in case
anyone wants to take a peek back at 1960:

http://www.prinsol.com/~aaron/microwaves


Aaron



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 10 05:14:51 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Linux Q's
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812091732.RAA10046@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 9, 98 06:32:04 pm
Message-ID: <199812101015.KAA04986@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > Of course the HOWTOs are a great thing - but they are still
> > written documentation - and reading manuals is cheating.

> Does the kernel source count as 'written documentation'? Is it cheating 
> to read that? It's how I seem to work out what some of the more obscure 
> functions are for...

Trapped me :) But hey, source isn't ment to be read ...
because you don't have to - thers always a disassembler :)

Gruss
H.
(I still remember the time when I was disassembling
almost any new programm I got for my Apple ][ :)

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From neil at goodnet.com  Thu Dec 10 04:38:56 1998
From: neil at goodnet.com (Neil B. Sheldon Sr)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Usual?!?!?!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981209213457.00944c70@mail.30below.com>
References: 
 
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981210033856.0072cf64@207.98.129.100>

Just goes to show you, How unique you really are.

At 09:34 PM 12/9/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Once upon a midnight dreary, Zane H. Healy had spoken clearly:
>
>>>> I don't have a PDP-11 -- that's unusual in this crowd. >;-)
>>>
>>>This must be the only list were _not_ owning a minicomputer is unusual :-)
>>
>>Shouldn't that be, not owning several Minicomputers is unusual :^)
>
>Damn!!!
>
>Just when I finally found a group I thought I was somewhat *normal* in...
>I find I'm unusual in this one, too! ;-)
>
>Will I *ever* fit in?????
>
>"Merch"
>
>



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 10 05:56:30 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
In-Reply-To: 
References:  from "cswiger" at Dec 8, 98 09:48:59 pm
Message-ID: <199812101057.KAA12815@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > > Sure. But there were other build-it-yourself machines that have not 
> > > attracted the prices of the Altair. Things like the 'Hewart Mini 6800'. 
> > > or the 'PE CHAMP'. Or the various Elektor computers. Or the Science of 
> > > Cambridge MK14 (although that one is somewhat expensive now). Or the 
> > > Nascom. All came as kits. Most of them are a few 10s of dollars 

> > Well, it may just be a case of marketing in a popular journal, but
> > NONE of the above appeared on my radar screen as a curious teenager
> > in nowhere West Virginia, USA at that time. 

> A lot of them are UK/European designs -- the MK14 was essentially a 
> Sinclair product, the Nascom was a UK machine (that begat the Gemini 
> Galaxy, which you won't have heard of), PE = Practical Electronics, a UK 
> magazine, and the Champ was a 4040-based machine + EPROM programmer that 
> they published and Elektor is a Dutch magazine thats sold across Europe.


> Now, I don't want to start another silly Europe .vs. USA flamewar. And I 
> am not suprised that a lot of those machines didn't make it to the 
> States. But I am truely suprised that the Altair should be 2 orders of 
> magnitude (at least) more valuable than any of the above.

Value is still depending - Its the same with the PET hype
in the US - The people like to have what they dreamed of
(or what they once had) and Pascal Microengines or Nascoms
(I'm still looking for a Nascom I system ...) have just
been special to the time - Like cars - take a Glas 2500 -
a german car from the 60s - comaparable to any italian
sports car but unknown to most common peoples - if you
know the later BMW csi models, you might imagine a Glas,
since BMW bought Glas and took their modern technology
to rebuild the company (at this time BMW had only pre
war designs ...). Glas went bankrupt becuse they couldn't
get new money into the company but instead the banks closed
the credit line (One truly unconnected fact was that the
major lending bank was also the 'house bank' of BMW and
controlled by the owner family of BMW). The 50s and 60s
have been a quite turbulent time in car busines over here :)

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 10 05:56:30 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:04 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
In-Reply-To: <199812091911.LAA13152@oa.ptloma.edu>
References: <199812091837.SAA14958@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 9, 98 07:37:14 pm
Message-ID: <199812101057.KAA12812@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> ::And for the price, it took more than a year to get the
> ::C64 down to 600 Mark (the price of an Atari).

> In the States, it took less than a year. The 64 was introduced at Winter CES
> 1982, according to my data, and during 1983 (probably no more than six months
> later) dropped to US$199 MSRP -- street sales were even lower.

Maybe Germans are just more willingly victims of blood sucking ...
At the start a C64 with floppy and CRT wasa about 2200 Mark,
while an Apple ][+ compatible computer with dual drives cost
only 1600 Mark ... But the people bought the C64 ... The slice
sales practice of commodore was just better ...

Slice sales means 'You just needs a C64 at 1100 Mark and
Tape at 100 Mark and use your TV set - so it's only 1200
Mark, compared to 1600 for a dual floppy Apple clone' and
the people did belive ... I'm still mad about this. I had
to go thru this with a collegue of mine - a veritable /370
programmer and Hardwar technican, but instead of buying
a clone, he did go for the C64 ... Only the computer and
the Tape ... haha ... it took only 2 month until he bought
a floppy ... and only some more weeks for the CRT ... and
no software available at this time, hile I had zillions
(ok, lets say some 300) of disks.

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 10 05:56:30 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: Usual?!?!?!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981209213457.00944c70@mail.30below.com>
References: 
Message-ID: <199812101057.KAA12821@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> >>> I don't have a PDP-11 -- that's unusual in this crowd. >;-)
> >>This must be the only list were _not_ owning a minicomputer is unusual :-)
> >Shouldn't that be, not owning several Minicomputers is unusual :^)

> Damn!!!

> Just when I finally found a group I thought I was somewhat *normal* in...
> I find I'm unusual in this one, too! ;-)

Ups - meto. Or counts a small /370 compatible box
(size of a fridge) as mini ?

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 10 05:56:30 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <199812101057.KAA12818@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> What I *do* have, though, is a Transdata Cx500. 2xDSDD 8", 64mb ram, Z80 
> CPU with a second Z80 on the floppy controller board doing who knows 
> what. I have yet to meet anyone else who has even *heard* of a Transdata 
> computer. [1]

> [1] I believe they might have made terminals and paper-tape stuff too...

Transdata is a trademark of Siemens and the family name for
Communication/WAN Hardware (back from the 60s thru early 90s)
for mainframe sstems. There have also been some 'Intelligent
Terminals', like the 9753 that have been in fact 8080 based
CP/M systems.

But I guess the name is just coincidence.

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From bobstek at ix.netcom.com  Thu Dec 10 05:11:10 1998
From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: NorthStar drives in cabinet
Message-ID: <000001be242d$ca89a860$8c6ffea9@mycroft>

Jeff -

If no one else is interested, I am.  I have several of the N* drives with
their blue metal covers but not one with a wood cabinet.  I have some S-100
boards, CP/M books, or a T/S 1000 if you are interested.

Bob Stek
bobstek@ix.netcom.com
Saver of Lost SOLs



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 10 07:00:42 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <199812101201.MAA24848@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> >What about machines that almost everyone has, but a few don't? I don't
> >have a Vic20, for example, which is probably pretty unusual.

> Actually, the VIC-20's seem to be fairly hard to get now days.

VIC-20 (or VC20 as they have been sold in Germany) are
still common. Every other week one shows up on flea
markets around munich.

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From gram at cnct.com  Thu Dec 10 06:19:38 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: Free Software (Was Re: (Linux != UNIX) (Was Re: OT HP Networking))
References: 
Message-ID: <366FBC59.E72023C7@cnct.com>

Tony Duell wrote:
> 
> >
> > Max Eskin wrote:
> > >
> > > That's fine, except that's not what the GNU license allows him to do.
> > > > "I have nothing against people who sell
> > > >software, and they should have nothing against me for forbidding >them from
> > > using my software in the software they sell."
> >
> > And if he doesn't like the wording of the FSF license, he should have
> > written it differently.  He had the option.  It was his pencil.  And
> > his words.
> 
> Or, of course, released some of his software under a different license.
> AFAIK, nobody, not even RMS, has to release anything under the GPL if
> they don't want to.

Of course, that means that no code otherwise covered by the GPL can
be used -- because if any _part_ of a product is GPL'd, so must all
derivative work.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From kevan at heydon.org  Thu Dec 10 06:50:08 1998
From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Simon Coombs wrote:
> 
> I know of someone with a Nascom-II, although I don't own one personally. 

I have a couple of these, both in different cases because they are home
built.

I also have an Acorn System5 which you don't see many of, and an Acorn
Cambridge Workstation, plus some other Acorn prototype stuff. But I guess
living in the same city as Acorn helps here.

While not strickly a general purpose computer I have a Brandvance Galactic
Invaders which I have never been able to find more information on. You can
see a picture here:

www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/manufacturer-brandvance/galactic_invaders.html

Finally I hope to be getting a Torch QuadX machine soon which are much
rarer than the more common TripleX machines.

--
Kevan

Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/




From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 10 07:57:54 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: Type list (was: single instance machines)
In-Reply-To: <000601be23bb$436372c0$3ef438cb@a.davie>
References: 
Message-ID: <199812101258.MAA04336@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> I guess prototype 2650 S100 machines / cards qualify?  There must be a lot
> of homebrew "single instance" machines lying around.  Here's one I'm
> particularly fond of...
> http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/weird/s100.html
> This machine ran CP/M on a 2650 using a software 8080 emulator written in
> 2650.  Slowly!

Just tell me this is a joke ... not only a 2650 _somwhere_, but
rather a real S100 system - Geee I can't get it ... THATS great
I think this is from now on my personal favorite for the most
unusual homebrew uP system of all times. Thats just fantastic!
(BTW, it's maybe not very visible, but I had some relations
to the 2650 in the past ... my first uP :)

Of course this is a _slow_slow_slow_ thing when emulating a
8080 - I guess it runns like a 100 kHz 8080 :))

I know, the idea is not new, but I still think it's worth to do:
What about a list of all systems 'known to exist' i.e. a list
of all machines that are 'alive'. THe question about singularity
comes up every half year, so this list could help. If there is
some interest, I will volunteere to compile this list.

Gruss
Hans

--
Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh.
H.Achternbusch


From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Thu Dec 10 07:03:32 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: Type list (was: single instance machines)
In-Reply-To: <199812101258.MAA04336@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <000201be243d$7cf83980$2af438cb@a.davie>

Re: 2650 S100 machine
I obtained this machine from it's designer, and it is definitely NOT a joke!
The particular 2650 processor card in this machine was a prototype for a
card which was published in an electronics magazine here.  I have quite a
few software tapes (yes, cassette tapes, as this ran CP/M from a cassette
(AFAIK)) and can confirm that it was running CP/M via an 8080 emulator
written in 2650.
Machine looks great, and if there's any requests, I'll improve the pictures
and do close-ups.  Totally homebrew in that every single card was made by
the owner - no commercial stuff at all.  Heck, the power supply is even
homebrew :)
Cheers
A

> -----Original Message-----
> From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu
> [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Hans Franke
> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 11:59 PM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Type list (was: single instance machines)
>
>
> > I guess prototype 2650 S100 machines / cards qualify?  There
> must be a lot
> > of homebrew "single instance" machines lying around.  Here's one I'm
> > particularly fond of...
> > http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/weird/s100.html
> > This machine ran CP/M on a 2650 using a software 8080 emulator
> written in
> > 2650.  Slowly!
>
> Just tell me this is a joke ... not only a 2650 _somwhere_, but
> rather a real S100 system - Geee I can't get it ... THATS great
> I think this is from now on my personal favorite for the most
> unusual homebrew uP system of all times. Thats just fantastic!
> (BTW, it's maybe not very visible, but I had some relations
> to the 2650 in the past ... my first uP :)
>
> Of course this is a _slow_slow_slow_ thing when emulating a
> 8080 - I guess it runns like a 100 kHz 8080 :))
>
> I know, the idea is not new, but I still think it's worth to do:
> What about a list of all systems 'known to exist' i.e. a list
> of all machines that are 'alive'. THe question about singularity
> comes up every half year, so this list could help. If there is
> some interest, I will volunteere to compile this list.
>
> Gruss
> Hans
>
> --
> Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh.
> H.Achternbusch
>



From cfandt at netsync.net  Wed Dec  9 21:09:34 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981209193328.51074e40@intellistar.net>
References: 
 <19981209.140221.277.3.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981209220419.00ac0630@206.231.8.2>

At 19:33 12/09/98 +0000, Joe  wrote:
>No but I have an Intel developement system.  I DID have seven (yes, seven!)
>HP 64000 Logic Developement Systems but I scrapped them.

Ouch! I would like to add a 64000 to my collection. Oh well . . .

Speaking of devel systems, I have a Zilog Z80 development system type 1/40.
Early enough so that it topped out with 2 mhz Z80 speed chips, no faster.
1977 date I think. I imagine not many of these are left either. Another
dumpster salvage from work :)

Regards,  Chris
-- -- 
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 10 08:18:58 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: 2650 (was:Type list (was: single instance machines))
In-Reply-To: <000201be243d$7cf83980$2af438cb@a.davie>
References: <199812101258.MAA04336@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <199812101320.NAA08259@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> Re: 2650 S100 machine
> I obtained this machine from it's designer, and it is definitely NOT a joke!
> The particular 2650 processor card in this machine was a prototype for a
> card which was published in an electronics magazine here.  I have quite a
> few software tapes (yes, cassette tapes, as this ran CP/M from a cassette
> (AFAIK)) and can confirm that it was running CP/M via an 8080 emulator
> written in 2650.
> Machine looks great, and if there's any requests, I'll improve the pictures
> and do close-ups.  Totally homebrew in that every single card was made by
> the owner - no commercial stuff at all.  Heck, the power supply is even
> homebrew :)

Request.

I would also like to see schematics of the CPU board.

Gruss
hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Thu Dec 10 09:56:39 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: NCR tower  Re: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <19981209.222656.253.3.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981210095639.43277556@intellistar.net>

At 10:26 PM 12/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
>
>On Wed, 9 Dec 1998 22:33:52 -0600 (CST) "Richard W. Schauer"
> writes:
>>- Wang OIS-60X word processing server and terminals.  Z80.
>>- CPT 8525 word processor.  8080.
>>- NCR UNIX Tower.  Don't know yet.
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>I have the 68010 version of this, *and* I have the OS install tape!
>You are one of two people I know who has NCR hardware!


Jeff,

  There's several of them at the computer scrapper's place here.  Can you
send a list of model numbers that you're interested in and I'll check on
these. I did open one and look at it.  It  was a BIG tower case that slid
out on rails. It had an Intel CPU, a 486-33 I think. There are several more
there that are in tall slim tower cases but I didn't look at them.

   Joe



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Thu Dec 10 10:17:38 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: Help!  PS 2 model P70
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981210101738.301fd946@intellistar.net>

  I have a P70 that won't boot. It displays error numbers 167 and 163. Does
anyone know anything about these? 

   Joe



From transit at primenet.com  Thu Dec 10 08:26:31 1998
From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <199812101201.MAA24848@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Hans Franke wrote:

> > >What about machines that almost everyone has, but a few don't? I don't
> > >have a Vic20, for example, which is probably pretty unusual.
> 
> > Actually, the VIC-20's seem to be fairly hard to get now days.
> 
> VIC-20 (or VC20 as they have been sold in Germany) are

Trivia question: Why are VIC-20's called VC-20 in Germany?



From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk  Thu Dec 10 08:30:27 1998
From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: NCR tower  Re: "Single instance" machines
Message-ID: 

>>>>- NCR UNIX Tower.  Don't know yet.
>>>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>I have the 68010 version of this, *and* I have the OS install tape!
>>>You are one of two people I know who has NCR hardware!
>>
>>
>>Jeff,
>>
>>  There's several of them at the computer scrapper's place here.  Can you
>>send a list of model numbers that you're interested in and I'll check on
>>these. I did open one and look at it.  It  was a BIG tower case that slid
>>out on rails. It had an Intel CPU, a 486-33 I think. There are several more
>>there that are in tall slim tower cases but I didn't look at them.

I don't think they ever developed the Tower series, or related OS to run
with Intel CPUs. Unisys also released machines using the same hardware,
but with different model numbers.

I have a Tower 750 (I can't remember the NCR 'official' model numbel for
this), with a couple of 380MB Maxtor SCSI disks in it, 150MB SCSI tape
drive, 16 terminal ports  ( I don't have any breakout boxes
unfortunately), 10Mbps ethernet, 39MB memory (that's 32MB of
user-accessible memory, 7MB of ECC / parity code - those memory boards
should keep running forever :)

I've got X-Windows (release 4 I think it was) for the machine - they
appear to be pretty quick boxes from what I remember (due to no free
space I haven't used the thing in the last two years - it failed to
power up last time I tried, so I need to do some work on it sometime)

Get hold of ethernet cards if you can, apparently they aren't that
common. Also SCSI controllers - I get the impression that MFM boards
were used most of the time rather than SCSI, it being a more expensive
technology back then. I'm missing the one most valuable resource for my
Tower - the OS tapes! 

Any questions, just ask - I may be able to help, and should have a few
bits of info lying around for these beasts...

cheers

Jules



From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Thu Dec 10 08:45:48 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To:  from "Charles P. Hobbs" at Dec 10, 98 06:26:31 am
Message-ID: <199812101445.GAA46808@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 10 09:43:28 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812101201.MAA24848@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <199812101444.OAA23798@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> > > >What about machines that almost everyone has, but a few don't? I don't
> > > >have a Vic20, for example, which is probably pretty unusual.

> > > Actually, the VIC-20's seem to be fairly hard to get now days.

> > VIC-20 (or VC20 as they have been sold in Germany) are

> Trivia question: Why are VIC-20's called VC-20 in Germany?

Am I allowed to answer ?

Grins
H.

P.S.: as far as I remember no '-' has been used over here.

--
Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh.
H.Achternbusch


From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Thu Dec 10 08:50:46 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: Usual?!?!?!
In-Reply-To:  from "cswiger" at Dec 10, 98 03:13:44 am
Message-ID: <199812101450.GAA26454@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Dec 10 08:55:23 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: Modem tones over television or radio
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981210085523.01d83cf0@pc>


Somewhat apropos the recent thread about sending mains power 
through modems, can anyone tell me if it's legal or illegal
here in the States to send data in the audio of television or
radio?  Certainly there would be bandwidth and therefore speed
limitations, but does the FCC allow this?  Is it legal in other
countries?  

- John



From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Dec 10 08:55:27 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
References: <19981209.140221.277.3.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981210085527.01d7fc90@pc>

At 10:15 PM 12/9/98 +0000, Tony Duell wrote:
>
>OK, anyone else here got a Tektronix 8000 microprocessor development system
>(either the 11/03 floppy-based one or the 11/23 hard-disk based one)?

In college, I worked with a DEC MiniMINC, a breadbox-sized 11/03
machine, but I've never seen one since.  Love to get one.
I forget - are there any other Terak owners out there?

I've got a Zilog MCZ 05-1014 early Z-80 development system that
runs an OS called RIOS - is that pre-CP/M?  I found a guy via
Dejanews who has several of this line, Fritz Chwolka@nt-gmbh.de .

I've also got a NEC APC-H03, the color version, running MS-DOS 2.11.
It has two NEC 7220 graphics display controllers, one for text and 
one for graphics.  Resolution was 640x494.

At 09:50 PM 12/9/98 -0500, Christian Fandt wrote:
>At 19:51 12/09/98 +0000, Tony Duell wrote:
>>
>>Any other PERQ-fanatics here? Any model of PERQ, I am not expecting 3a or 
>>T4 owners to appear :-)
>
>I have a feeling you would be the only person within our list and perhaps
>most other computer collectors who has a PERQ. I never seen one, know very
>little about them,

I saw my first PERQ at SIGGRAPH '98, in the 70s booth where I exhibited
my Terak.  This PERQ was on loan from The Computer Museum.  I can see why
Tony's always babbling about them.  It exuded serious funk and sass, even
though the one on display wasn't working - although I never met a rep
from the Museum who could tell me about it, the machine sat dark.
My Terak was one of the few machines running in the exhibit, the docents
happily played Breakout with sound effects.

- John



From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Thu Dec 10 09:03:05 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To:  from "Zane H. Healy" at Dec 9, 98 06:25:02 pm
Message-ID: <199812101503.HAA26520@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From cfandt at netsync.net  Thu Dec 10 09:09:39 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: Need an IBM 9309-2 Rack Enclosure
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4.1.19981209095541.00a90ce0@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981209215732.00abf560@206.231.8.2>

At 18:05 12/09/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> Some of you know I rescued an IBM 9370 system from my now-ex employer in
>> mid-'97. 
>
>RCS/RI has so many, WERE GIVING THEM AWAY!

9309's or 9370's? I'll take a 9309-2! Already got the 9370 :)

But how do I get a 9309-2 (or a couple of -1's)? Anybody heading out this
way from RI with a truck??:) (I'm kinda serious with that question...)

>
>If you treat us kindly, you might find an RS/6000 930 (ex NSFnet router)
>in it.

Is this a RISC machine? (I'm not up on the RS/6k's) But I need the rack
space inside though . . .

>
>I also have complete docs for the 9309s, in all their flavors.

I've got some 9309 docs: GA24-4103-03 (Gen'l Info + Site Prep),
S124-0155-02 (Parts Cat.) and SY24-4075-04 (Service guide).

Could use: GA24-4039-0x (Setup + Operation Guide) and SA24-4077-0x (Guide
to Analyzing Problems) and GA24-4101-0x (Installing the 9309 Stabilizer).
The x's stand for the revisions which should be around early 1988 which is
just after the vintage of the machine.

I've got a bunch of other docs that are for the 9370 itself and
9332-400/600 and 9347 units. A few are missing I think.

Regards,  Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/


From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com  Thu Dec 10 09:16:06 1998
From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: Help!  PS 2 model P70
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981210101738.301fd946@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981210071606.00965eb0@mail.bluefeathertech.com>

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From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com  Thu Dec 10 09:31:10 1998
From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: It's DEC-10 today!
Message-ID: <13410670121.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>

Happy DEC 10, folks!
-------


From jeff.kaneko at juno.com  Thu Dec 10 09:26:52 1998
From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
Message-ID: <19981210.093001.256.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>

That's the story I heard.
The original name Commodore chose for the VIC was 'Vixen'.
In German, that's a naughty word, too.

Jeff

On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 06:45:48 -0800 (PST) Cameron Kaiser
 writes:
>::Trivia question: Why are VIC-20's called VC-20 in Germany?
>
>The running apocryphal story is because VIC, pronounced "fick" in 
>German,
>comes out as a naughty word. (Take a guess.) There is some doubt 
>about
>the veracity of this, of course.
>
>-- 
>-------------------------- personal page: 
>http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ --
>Cameron Kaiser              Information Technology Services Database 
>Programmer
>Point Loma Nazarene University                             Fax: +1 619 
>849 2581
>ckaiser@ptloma.edu                                       Phone: +1 619 
>849 2539
>-- He who Laughs, Lasts. 
>------------------------------------------------------
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 10 10:35:47 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: Modem tones over television or radio
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981210085523.01d83cf0@pc>
Message-ID: <199812101536.PAA01565@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> Somewhat apropos the recent thread about sending mains power 
> through modems, can anyone tell me if it's legal or illegal
> here in the States to send data in the audio of television or
> radio?  Certainly there would be bandwidth and therefore speed
> limitations, but does the FCC allow this?  Is it legal in other
> countries?  

I guess it is perfect legal as long as you stay in band.
It is legal in Germany and we have (weiss Gott) a lot of
regulations. The WDR Computer Club (a TV and radio hobby
computer show of the WDR) this a lot of transmissions in
the mid 80s. AFAIR they also transmited programms using
the Teletext system - additional pages with binary
information have been inserted to distribute software.

But since programms started to grow beyond 1 to 10 KB,
the transmission times became unacceptabe - AFAIR the
bandwidth of teletext is less than two K-Byte per
second and they only could use some pages, since
'ordinary' TV viewers still wanted their information
pages transmited. On radio they cut of I think at 5
Minutes - so the maximum Programm was some 20 KB - all
transmission was done IN BAND, while via TV up to 200 KB
have been transmitted (in Austria at least).

At one time the stereo chanals (used as dual monao) have
also been used during the Show to transmit software - on
A (left) the regular sound was transmitted, while on B
(right) the software describen in the show was transmitted.


AFAIR the BBC did also transmit software thru teletext
pages (in GB).

Even in the DDR (east Germany) radio was used to transmit
home computer programms. I have several recordings from
DTF99 computer shows - at this times the whole east German
comuter hobbyist nation was recording the shows ... at
least that is what they told me :)

Gruss
hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From bill at chipware.com  Thu Dec 10 09:41:37 1998
From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: Up for grabs:  Unusual video cable
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <000601be2453$928be600$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com>

> > DA15, surely? Same as an ethernet AUI connector shell.
> > Sounds like the video cable for a VAXstation or DECstation. No, 
> 
> Apollo workstations also use that connector on their colour framebuffers.

Or possibly an OkiStation.


From bill at chipware.com  Thu Dec 10 09:55:34 1998
From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <000701be2455$85645dc0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com>

George Rachor wrote:
> Finally another Ohio Scientific owner....
> 
> I have a few OSI C2's and one C4... All are diskless.
What varieties of C2?  I have a C2OEM a C2NET and a C2NETB,
according to the ID plates.  Whether they are still what OSI
had in mind for those configs I don't know.  The C2NET was just
case, backplane and power supply when I got it, I've been adding
boards as I acquire them.  I guess technically it's really a C3
now, as it has a 555 CPU in it.
I don't have a C4 in my collection.  I passed on one about five
years ago.  It was in pretty good shape, with most of the docs
and software, but the guy wanted $150 for it.  I haven't seen one
since and I'm starting to kick myself for not taking it.
> 
> My dream find would be an OSI C8 or a C4 Mini-floppy drive.
A C8?  Doesn't ring a bell.  What CPU?  Was it OSI 48 pin bus?
I'll have to dig through my old Bytes.  At least I can just scan
the back covers!
> 
> I wouldn't mind eventually getting some of my software moved from tape to
> CD.
> 
> George Rachor



From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com  Thu Dec 10 10:11:59 1998
From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: Modem tones over television or radio
Message-ID: <981210111159.2f0003fa@trailing-edge.com>

>Somewhat apropos the recent thread about sending mains power 
>through modems, can anyone tell me if it's legal or illegal
>here in the States to send data in the audio of television or
>radio?

Yes - and it's commonly done.  The new Emergency Broadcast
System replacement transmits 1200 bps (I believe Bell 212A
modulation) bursts over TV and radio audio.  And many different
digital services are encoded in the video blanking interval of
TV signals - closed captioning, timestamps, and program
information, among others.  

>  Certainly there would be bandwidth and therefore speed
>limitations, but does the FCC allow this?

It's a requirement of the new EBS replacement!

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927


From grant at anachronism.sol.co.uk  Thu Dec 10 10:23:26 1998
From: grant at anachronism.sol.co.uk (Grant Mitchell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: Modem tones over television or radio
Message-ID: <199812101622.QAA16552@gauss.maths.abdn.ac.uk>

There was a program once, here in the UK which sent data via a flashing dot
in the bottom of the screen. You attached a little photo-sensor on the
bottom of the screen
while the show was being broadcast (similar I guess to those casio
watches).
 I'm not sure what the data rate was though, as I never made one of the
gizmo's
 for decoding it.

On a similar note, does anyone own one of those toys for the Captain Power
TV
series. Apparently it picked up the "interference" pattern on the bad guy's
chest,
and allowed you to shoot it. It also, if memory serves, picked up the
enemy's
laser, and would tell you if you had been shot. Anyone know of any other
good interactive TV attempts?

Grant.

----------
> From: Hans Franke 
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

> Subject: Re: Modem tones over television or radio
> Date: 10 December 1998 15:36
> 
> AFAIR the BBC did also transmit software thru teletext
> pages (in GB).
> 
> Gruss
> hans
> 
> --
> Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
> HRK


From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Dec 10 10:41:50 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: Modem tones over television or radio
In-Reply-To: <981210111159.2f0003fa@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981210104150.00f579b0@pc>

At 11:11 AM 12/10/98 -0500, jfoust@threedee.com wrote:
>And many different
>digital services are encoded in the video blanking interval of
>TV signals - closed captioning, timestamps, and program
>information, among others.  

I'm quite familiar with info stuffed in the video blanking
interval and other scanlines (once upon a time in '82 or so, 
I interfaced a RSTS dial-up to a LINC/8 so as to make weather 
reports available online) but those schemes seem "out of band"
to me - they're not in the audio.

>>  Certainly there would be bandwidth and therefore speed
>>limitations, but does the FCC allow this?
>
>It's a requirement of the new EBS replacement!

Cynical as I am, the fact that the government is allowed to
do something doesn't tell me it's legal for citizens.  :-)

I seem to remember something about tone encoding/decoding
being illegal within citizen's band radio, for example.



From george at racsys.rt.rain.com  Thu Dec 10 11:10:31 1998
From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: networking newbie
In-Reply-To: <36642494.24942647@rain.org>
Message-ID: 

As my wife will be traveling with me I just called and without mentioning
NAR or the good Captain I got $69 per night for the both of us.

George

=========================================================
George L. Rachor		george@racsys.rt.rain.com
Beaverton, Oregon               http://racsys.rt.rain.com
                                KD7DCX

On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote:

> Julian Richardson wrote:
> > 
> > Not that I'm rather stressed out at the way the computing industry
> > blindly follows the big players round (sarcasm mode is on here, folks!)
> > - but I run up against this brick wall time after time. People high up
> > in a company see something as a risk unless they have to invest lots of
> > time and money in puchasing it and supporting it - they just don't seem
> > to feel safe if the product in question is low-cost (or free!) and runs
> > itself without any trouble, even if such "features" are rammed down
> > their throats. It's a very scary industry.
> 
> The Halloween Papers showed one of the strategies was to attack the process
> rather than the implementation; sounds like that is what you are up against.
> 
> And on the same topic, didn't DECUS provide free (or low cost) software
> applications? Did the same mentality apply to that, or did the letters "DEC"
> tend to give more credibility to that software?
> 



From transit at primenet.com  Thu Dec 10 11:44:32 1998
From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: VIC's in Germany (was: Re: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <199812101444.OAA23798@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: 


On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Hans Franke wrote:
> > > VIC-20 (or VC20 as they have been sold in Germany) are
> 
> > Trivia question: Why are VIC-20's called VC-20 in Germany?
> 
> Am I allowed to answer ?
> 

Sure!



From george at racsys.rt.rain.com  Thu Dec 10 12:31:50 1998
From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: networking newbie
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Sorry... wrong list
George

=========================================================
George L. Rachor		george@racsys.rt.rain.com
Beaverton, Oregon               http://racsys.rt.rain.com
                                KD7DCX



From cmcmanis at freegate.com  Thu Dec 10 12:35:58 1998
From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: Modem tones over television or radio
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981210085523.01d83cf0@pc>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981210103354.009b79a0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>

TouchTones(tm) are used all the time in satellite feeds to cue local
programming. If you get a satellite dish (one of the big ones) and download
directly (and you find an downlink that isn't encrypted these days) you
will hear them all the time. There are codes for "insert your commercial
here" and "breaking news story" etc. They cue automatic switchers at the
local end.

--Chuck

At 08:55 AM 12/10/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
>Somewhat apropos the recent thread about sending mains power 
>through modems, can anyone tell me if it's legal or illegal
>here in the States to send data in the audio of television or
>radio?  Certainly there would be bandwidth and therefore speed
>limitations, but does the FCC allow this?  Is it legal in other
>countries?  
>
>- John
>




From ddameron at earthlink.net  Thu Dec 10 12:37:54 1998
From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: E.I. Homebuilt Computer (was Re: "Single instance"
  machines)
Message-ID: <199812101837.KAA07212@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

Hi Aaron and all,
At 01:57 AM 12/10/98 -0800, you wrote:

>> > And the 1/3 part is in the form of the "electronic" computer I'm building
>> > from the January 1960 issue of Electronics Illustrated...(flip-flops,
>> > light-bulbs, and a rotary phone dial - woo-hoo!) I'm about 1/3
>> > completed...
>> 
>> One of my favorite early personal computers!  I regret that the designer
>> didn't give it a name, though.  Specs:
>> 
>> Name: "Electronic Computer"
>> Intro: Jan 1960

>Did you actually build one of these? I was thinking of taking the author's
>suggestion and upgrading the memory to 10 bits...
>
>Do you have the magazine? If you don't, and get around to putting up a web
>page, I'll gladly scan the article to put on it. Actually, if anyone else
>is interested, I could scan it and make it available for anyone who want's
>to hack around on it. Pretty cool, actually.
>
I would be interested in the article. I built the later one (E.I., about
1966) with 60 neon lamps as 6 decade shift register/counters and a rotary
telephone dial. This one used 3 12AU7/ECC82 as 6 buffer amps. The diodes in
it I used were from scrapped IBM assemblies. I still have some 6V lamps in
orange plastic holders from the same scrapyard, used on some IBM panels.
-Dave




From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 10 13:38:54 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: VIC's in Germany (was: Re: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812101444.OAA23798@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <199812101839.SAA21535@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > > > VIC-20 (or VC20 as they have been sold in Germany) are
> > > Trivia question: Why are VIC-20's called VC-20 in Germany?
> > Am I allowed to answer ?
> Sure!

First, like Cameron already explaned, if VIC is pronounced
as one word it gives the same sound as f*ck (*insert here the
language specific vovel) - this is region dependant, but
especialy true in the area where Commodore was located.
Second, if spelled (Vau Ih Ceh) it sounds clumbsy, while
VC (Vau Ceh) could be spoken fluent. And third, Commodore
tried to catch up with the marketing idea of a VolksComputer.
Like the Volkswagen :)

Also the C64 was marketed as VC 64 in the beginning :)

Gruss
Hans


--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Thu Dec 10 12:49:51 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: E.I. Homebuilt Computer (was Re: "Single instance"
In-Reply-To: <199812101837.KAA07212@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from "dave dameron" at Dec 10, 98 10:37:54 am
Message-ID: <199812101849.KAA45786@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 10 13:51:24 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <199812101503.HAA26520@oa.ptloma.edu>
References:  from "Zane H. Healy" at Dec 9, 98 06:25:02 pm
Message-ID: <199812101852.SAA22208@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> ::Actually, the VIC-20's seem to be fairly hard to get now days.

> Not that difficult. They appear on eBay from time to time and a place around
> here has a few refurbished models in stock. They *do* seem to inspire more
> loyalty to them than the 64 did, though, for some inexplicable reason.

Don't forget: the V(I)C-20 was a bit faster and a way better
design then the C64.

Gruss
H.
And by the way, to catch up with the title - is there any
other Commodore B500 around, or a Pascal Microengine ?

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From lfb107 at psu.edu  Thu Dec 10 13:14:55 1998
From: lfb107 at psu.edu (Les Berry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: single instance machines
Message-ID: <199812101911.OAA76798@f04n07.cac.psu.edu>

At 07:19 PM 12/9/98, Joe wrote:
>At 02:27 PM 12/9/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Joe wrote:
>>
>>> >    Hmmm. I have two AT&T 3B1 model 310s. Does that count as one or two?
>>                                       ^^^
>>
>>Whazzat?
>
>  That's a brain-fart. It should have said 3B2.

Well, in that case, i've got one too.  (with the expansion module)

Les




From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Dec 10 13:10:35 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: Modem tones over television or radio
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981210103354.009b79a0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
References: <3.0.5.32.19981210085523.01d83cf0@pc>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981210131035.00fed7c0@pc>

At 10:35 AM 12/10/98 -0800, Chuck McManis wrote:
>TouchTones(tm) are used all the time in satellite feeds to cue local
>programming. 

Yes, I've heard those - although they're in the audio, they're
supposed to be stripped before the audience gets the signal, no?

With the advent of software modems and ubiquitous sound cards,
you'd think we'd see more occurences of "hold your microphone
up to the speaker (or earpiece) to receive data".  Or a little
data in the audio track on a CD - it's today's equivalent of
"Paul is dead," no?

- John



From cmcmanis at freegate.com  Thu Dec 10 13:37:04 1998
From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: Modem tones over television or radio
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981210131035.00fed7c0@pc>
References: <4.1.19981210103354.009b79a0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
 <3.0.5.32.19981210085523.01d83cf0@pc>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981210113621.00b89880@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>

I got just two words for you:
	Actimates Barney

In this case it is "have your toy 'look' at the television set..."

At 01:10 PM 12/10/98 -0600, you wrote:
>At 10:35 AM 12/10/98 -0800, Chuck McManis wrote:
>>TouchTones(tm) are used all the time in satellite feeds to cue local
>>programming. 
>
>Yes, I've heard those - although they're in the audio, they're
>supposed to be stripped before the audience gets the signal, no?
>
>With the advent of software modems and ubiquitous sound cards,
>you'd think we'd see more occurences of "hold your microphone
>up to the speaker (or earpiece) to receive data".  Or a little
>data in the audio track on a CD - it's today's equivalent of
>"Paul is dead," no?
>
>- John
>




From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Dec 10 13:44:31 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: Modem tones over television or radio
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981210113621.00b89880@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
References: <3.0.5.32.19981210131035.00fed7c0@pc>
 <4.1.19981210103354.009b79a0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981210134431.010265e0@pc>

At 11:37 AM 12/10/98 -0800, Chuck McManis wrote:
>I got just two words for you:
>	Actimates Barney
>
>In this case it is "have your toy 'look' at the television set..."

Well, as I understand it, the purple one's "TV Pack" includes a special
RF transmitter that grabs a signal from specially encoded videotapes
or even the PBS show.  Where did they stuff the signal - in the video
or the audio?  If audio, at what frequency?  Or is it just in the
second audio channel, like bilingual programming?

Does anyone remember any pre-BBS-era, pre-Internet attempts to send
modem tones over US radio or television programming?

- John



From fauradon at pclink.com  Thu Dec 10 13:59:34 1998
From: fauradon at pclink.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois_Auradon?=)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: single instance machines
Message-ID: <000601be2477$9c49c120$1f6e0181@fauradon.beckman.com>

You've got a brain-fart with an expansion module?

>At 07:19 PM 12/9/98, Joe wrote:
>>At 02:27 PM 12/9/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Joe wrote:
>>>
>>>> >    Hmmm. I have two AT&T 3B1 model 310s. Does that count as one or
two?
>>>                                       ^^^
>>>
>>>Whazzat?
>>
>>  That's a brain-fart. It should have said 3B2.
>
>Well, in that case, i've got one too.  (with the expansion module)
>
>Les
>
>



From yowza at yowza.com  Thu Dec 10 14:00:29 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: Modem tones over television or radio
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981210134431.010265e0@pc>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, John Foust wrote:

> Does anyone remember any pre-BBS-era, pre-Internet attempts to send
> modem tones over US radio or television programming?

I've got two words for you, too:

Packet Radio.

OK, it wasn't part of "normal" programming and it wasn't pre-BBS (there
were barely pre-BBS microcomputers), but I couldn't resist another
two-worder.  :-) 

-- Doug



From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com  Thu Dec 10 14:10:07 1998
From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: Modem tones over television or radio
Message-ID: <981210151007.2f000434@trailing-edge.com>

>>It's a requirement of the new EBS replacement!
>Cynical as I am, the fact that the government is allowed to
>do something doesn't tell me it's legal for citizens.  :-)

Well, broadcasters do, for many purposes, have the status of
super-citizens.  In today's FCC, all you need to do is have
enough cash in hand and you can get the government to sell you
whatever chunk of radio/microwave spectrum you decide are
necessary.  It doesn't matter that the new services stomp all
over bands that were previously reserved for medical equipment
or radio astronomy - after all, what does it matter whether


>I seem to remember something about tone encoding/decoding
>being illegal within citizen's band radio, for example.

In shared bandwidth applications, modes that can obliterate
existing services usually are tightly regulated.

There's also the matter of "encrypted transmissions", too.
For example, the ARRL had a special waiver written into FCC Part 97
that allows them to send 5-character Morse Code groups solely for the
purpose of practice.  And when I got started in RTTY, only Baudot
transmissions were allowed on the ham bands - ASCII wasn't an approved
encoding until a few years later.

>The new system is called EAS (Emergency Alerting System),
>replacing the old EBS.

Thank you!  I knew the EBS replacement wasn't called EBS anymore, but
I couldn't quite remember what it was called.

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927


From yowza at yowza.com  Thu Dec 10 14:10:46 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: E.I. Homebuilt Computer (was Re: "Single instance"  machines)
In-Reply-To: <199812101837.KAA07212@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, dave dameron wrote:

> I would be interested in the article. I built the later one (E.I., about
> 1966) with 60 neon lamps as 6 decade shift register/counters and a rotary
> telephone dial. This one used 3 12AU7/ECC82 as 6 buffer amps. The diodes in
> it I used were from scrapped IBM assemblies. I still have some 6V lamps in
> orange plastic holders from the same scrapyard, used on some IBM panels.

Very cool, Dave!  I didn't know about that one.  Any chance you can
pin-point the issue it appeared in?

I have the 1960 article, but I haven't built the 1960 machine (yet).
The nice case alone looks like it would be a coupla hundred bucks to
replicate today, but I suppose you could just make a bare-board version.

-- Doug



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 10 15:27:17 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: The Purple One (was Modem tones over television or radio)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981210134431.010265e0@pc>
References: <4.1.19981210113621.00b89880@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
Message-ID: <199812102028.UAA27865@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> >I got just two words for you:
> >	Actimates Barney

> >In this case it is "have your toy 'look' at the television set..."

> Well, as I understand it, the purple one's "TV Pack" includes a special
> RF transmitter that grabs a signal from specially encoded videotapes
> or even the PBS show.  Where did they stuff the signal - in the video
> or the audio?  If audio, at what frequency?  Or is it just in the
> second audio channel, like bilingual programming?

Just to get this right - You are talkig about the Purple
Monster (Barney loves you - I was at the Universal Studios
LA some 4 or 5 years ago with a friend when they just had
a special Barney feature around the park - my friend still
goes crazy when I mention 'Barney loves you' :) - so this
is about the purple Godzilla guy and there is a 'toy' that
works with some effects of the show ? What does it do ?
What effects ? What triggers ? Whats the price ? Or is it
already vintage ? I NEED TO KNOW - the perfect gift for
my friend (together wit a fiting barney video).

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Thu Dec 10 14:34:57 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981209115950.30bf9f86@ricochet.net>

> I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance
> represented on this list. 

Okay, here's a couple of recent acquisitions that might be unique on this
list:

Sharp PC-5000
V-Marc 88a
Datavue 25
Datavue Spark

Hopefully, I am not alone with these...  The last two were actually made by
Quadram.

And of course, I just passed on to other collectors, not one, but two
Symbolics 3600's, and a Sanyo MBC-8000.

And just to make sure we all get our daily dose of off-topic-ness, I have
an *autographed* CD of Vivaldi's complete Lute concertos!  (No, not
Vivaldi's autograph, Jacob Lindberg, the lutenist.)




From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Thu Dec 10 14:34:59 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: Oral History Questions
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981209122700.30b750b2@ricochet.net>

I have a chance to speak with the designers of some of the machines in my
collection.  But other than the basic "when was it intro'd, what are the
specs, what did it cost" stuff, what should I ask?  What sorts of stories,
info, etc. should I be trying to preserve? 

Thanks...


--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                       http://www.sinasohn.com/



From spc at armigeron.com  Fri Dec 11 14:37:48 1998
From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: Oral History Questions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19981209122700.30b750b2@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Dec 10, 98 12:34:59 pm
Message-ID: <199812112037.PAA01053@armigeron.com>

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From cmcmanis at freegate.com  Thu Dec 10 14:54:05 1998
From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: OT: Re: The Purple One (was Modem tones over television or
  radio)
In-Reply-To: <199812102028.UAA27865@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
References: <3.0.5.32.19981210134431.010265e0@pc>
 <4.1.19981210113621.00b89880@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981210125212.009e5f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>

Lots of people in the states sell them, its called the "Actimates" Barney.
As I understood it the toy "saw" signals in the form of IR coded pulses in
the video and responded appropriately. There are a couple of groups on the
net who have hacked the toy to give the dinosaur an extended, if somewhat
less refined, vocabulary.

--Chuck

At 09:28 PM 12/10/98 +0001, you wrote:
>> >I got just two words for you:
>> >	Actimates Barney
>
>> >In this case it is "have your toy 'look' at the television set..."
>
>> Well, as I understand it, the purple one's "TV Pack" includes a special
>> RF transmitter that grabs a signal from specially encoded videotapes
>> or even the PBS show.  Where did they stuff the signal - in the video
>> or the audio?  If audio, at what frequency?  Or is it just in the
>> second audio channel, like bilingual programming?
>
>Just to get this right - You are talkig about the Purple
>Monster (Barney loves you - I was at the Universal Studios
>LA some 4 or 5 years ago with a friend when they just had
>a special Barney feature around the park - my friend still
>goes crazy when I mention 'Barney loves you' :) - so this
>is about the purple Godzilla guy and there is a 'toy' that
>works with some effects of the show ? What does it do ?
>What effects ? What triggers ? Whats the price ? Or is it
>already vintage ? I NEED TO KNOW - the perfect gift for
>my friend (together wit a fiting barney video).
>
>Gruss
>Hans
>
>--
>Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
>HRK




From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 10 15:57:41 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:05 2005
Subject: Oral History Questions
In-Reply-To: <199812112037.PAA01053@armigeron.com>
References: <3.0.16.19981209122700.30b750b2@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Dec 10, 98 12:34:59 pm
Message-ID: <199812102058.UAA29490@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > I have a chance to speak with the designers of some of the machines in my
> > collection.  But other than the basic "when was it intro'd, what are the
> > specs, what did it cost" stuff, what should I ask?  What sorts of stories,
> > info, etc. should I be trying to preserve? 

>   Why did you use  instead of  time>?  How long did it take to design?  What was the indended market?  What
> was the actual market?  Stuff like that.

Are you shure this is interesting ? I doubt. Why X was used
instead of Y has almost no meaning - Stories around - thats
the stuff I like (For example about the orgin of a cigarette
burn in the operator table of the 2002 in the Deutsches
Museum) and stories how they did id, how they fighted the
management, the technic, the supply,  etc. (and I guess
these are also the stories that they like more to tell :)

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 10 16:04:25 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: OT: Re: The Purple One (was Modem tones over television or  radio)
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981210125212.009e5f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
References: <199812102028.UAA27865@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <199812102105.VAA29686@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

Date sent:      	Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:54:05 -0800
Send reply to:  	classiccmp@u.washington.edu
From:           	Chuck McManis 
To:             	"Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
Subject:        	OT: Re: The Purple One (was Modem tones over television or
 	radio)

> Lots of people in the states sell them, its called the "Actimates" Barney.
> As I understood it the toy "saw" signals in the form of IR coded pulses in
> the video and responded appropriately. There are a couple of groups on the
> net who have hacked the toy to give the dinosaur an extended, if somewhat
> less refined, vocabulary.

Any URL ? I did a quick search, but only comercial sites (like MS:
http://microsoft.com./products/hardware/actimates/barney/default.htm )
showed up - and I got a strange feeling reading about what this
toy is intended to do:


See what your child can learn with Actimates Barney!

Cooperation
Good Citizenship
Following Directions
...


Brrrrrrr.... Brave new world.

Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From cfandt at netsync.net  Thu Dec 10 15:17:12 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Just bought this . . .
Message-ID: <4.1.19981210154825.00abf550@206.231.8.2>

I just checked out the newly-remodeled Salvation Army Thrift Store and
found a nice piece: a new-in-the-box Hewlett-Packard Thinkjet model 2225B
equiped with HP-IL interface.  All accessories are there, plastic wrap
still over the machine, battery pack there too. $15 sounded fair enough I
think. I should go back more often. They usually had ancient PeeCee junk in
real tough shape for way too much $$$ whenever I was there before. But now
with the remodel, a new manager and finding this gem maybe I'll keep
checking more often. Besides, they're only about 150 meters from our house:)

This is great as I already have a couple of HP 75's to use it with. Or it
could be used on a PC as I've got an HP-IL-to-HPIB converter and a PC
IEEE488 card. 

Anybody have experience with using normal xerographic copy paper instead of
the HP-specified Thinkjet paper? If so, how are the results? 

They also had an Epson CX-20 handset coupler for $5 new in the box (plastic
wrap still on the device). Anybody want it for the cost plus shipping? Let
me know ASAP!

Regards,  Chris
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/


From allisonp at world.std.com  Thu Dec 10 15:18:26 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Oral History Questions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19981209122700.30b750b2@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: 


> collection.  But other than the basic "when was it intro'd, what are the
> specs, what did it cost" stuff, what should I ask?  What sorts of stories,
> info, etc. should I be trying to preserve? 
> 

Ask if they were trying to persue a specific market or application
class?  Another may be what were some of the design goals?

Compupro for example made a lot of boards that did DMA on s100 and also
multimastering. This gave them a huge performace advantage (and ieee696
complience).

Allison




From donm at cts.com  Thu Dec 10 15:28:34 1998
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Just bought this . . .
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981210154825.00abf550@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Christian Fandt wrote:

> I just checked out the newly-remodeled Salvation Army Thrift Store and
> found a nice piece: a new-in-the-box Hewlett-Packard Thinkjet model 2225B
> equiped with HP-IL interface.  All accessories are there, plastic wrap
> still over the machine, battery pack there too. $15 sounded fair enough I
> think. I should go back more often. They usually had ancient PeeCee junk in
> real tough shape for way too much $$$ whenever I was there before. But now
> with the remodel, a new manager and finding this gem maybe I'll keep
> checking more often. Besides, they're only about 150 meters from our house:)
> 
> This is great as I already have a couple of HP 75's to use it with. Or it
> could be used on a PC as I've got an HP-IL-to-HPIB converter and a PC
> IEEE488 card. 
> 
> Anybody have experience with using normal xerographic copy paper instead of
> the HP-specified Thinkjet paper? If so, how are the results? 

I used to use it in a QuietJet printer - same cartridge.  Worked fine!

						 - don
 
> They also had an Epson CX-20 handset coupler for $5 new in the box (plastic
> wrap still on the device). Anybody want it for the cost plus shipping? Let
> me know ASAP!
> 
> Regards,  Chris
> Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
> Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
> Member of Antique Wireless Association
>         URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/
> 

    donm@cts.com
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
    Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives
         Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society
       Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology.
     Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard  (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
        see old system support at  http://www.psyber.com/~tcj
visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cws86.kyamk.fi/mirrors/cpm
   	 with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm




From george at racsys.rt.rain.com  Thu Dec 10 16:09:19 1998
From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Oral History Questions
In-Reply-To: <199812112037.PAA01053@armigeron.com>
Message-ID: 

One might ask two questions:

What was the largest techincal challange in bringing your device to
market?

What was the largest non-technical challange in bringing you device to
market?

George

=========================================================
George L. Rachor		george@racsys.rt.rain.com
Beaverton, Oregon               http://racsys.rt.rain.com
                                KD7DCX

On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote:

> It was thus said that the Great Uncle Roger once stated:
> > 
> > I have a chance to speak with the designers of some of the machines in my
> > collection.  But other than the basic "when was it intro'd, what are the
> > specs, what did it cost" stuff, what should I ask?  What sorts of stories,
> > info, etc. should I be trying to preserve? 
> 
>   Why did you use  instead of  time>?  How long did it take to design?  What was the indended market?  What
> was the actual market?  Stuff like that.
> 
>   -spc (Wants to know why IBM forgot pull up resistors on the IRQ
> 	controller ... )
> 
> 



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 10 12:47:37 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Latest Project: homebrew paper tape reader
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981209225634.4cb7887c@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Dec 9, 98 10:56:34 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 10 12:50:11 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Tek 31 was Re: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981209232016.4aff716c@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Dec 9, 98 11:20:16 pm
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 10 12:57:10 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Latest Project: homebrew paper tape reader
In-Reply-To: <00f901be23e5$424120c0$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> from "Geoff Roberts" at Dec 10, 98 01:01:36 pm
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 10 13:17:02 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Linux Q's
In-Reply-To: <199812101015.KAA04986@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 10, 98 11:15:51 am
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 10 13:28:38 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To:  from "Kevan Heydon" at Dec 10, 98 04:50:08 am
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 10 13:03:11 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981209210741.00aaf440@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Dec 9, 98 09:50:47 pm
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 10 15:21:38 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Modem tones over television or radio
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981210085523.01d83cf0@pc> from "John Foust" at Dec 10, 98 08:55:23 am
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 10 16:12:54 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981210085527.01d7fc90@pc> from "John Foust" at Dec 10, 98 08:55:27 am
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 10 13:12:58 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Altair Collectors Association
In-Reply-To:  from "cswiger" at Dec 10, 98 03:03:52 am
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From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Dec 10 16:27:18 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Oral History Questions
In-Reply-To: <199812112037.PAA01053@armigeron.com>
References: <3.0.16.19981209122700.30b750b2@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981210162718.00fc2810@pc>

>It was thus said that the Great Uncle Roger once stated:
>> 
>> I have a chance to speak with the designers of some of the machines in my
>> collection.  But other than the basic "when was it intro'd, what are the
>> specs, what did it cost" stuff, what should I ask?  What sorts of stories,
>> info, etc. should I be trying to preserve? 
>
>  Why did you use  instead of time>?  How long did it take to design?  What was the indended market?  What
>was the actual market?  Stuff like that.

Yes, I think the historical context is important - which machines
did they compete against, who did they believe were their best customers,
what were they wrong about, why did they succeed or fail, and the
all important "Don't forget, at this time, XYZ hadn't been invented yet."

- John



From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Dec 10 16:34:56 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: OT: Re: The Purple One (was Modem tones over television or
   radio)
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981210125212.009e5f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
References: <199812102028.UAA27865@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
 <3.0.5.32.19981210134431.010265e0@pc>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981210163456.00fca070@pc>

At 12:54 PM 12/10/98 -0800, Chuck McManis wrote:
>Lots of people in the states sell them, its called the "Actimates" Barney.
>As I understood it the toy "saw" signals in the form of IR coded pulses in
>the video and responded appropriately. 


says it's a radio transmitter.  I don't know how you'd reliably 
transmit IR from a TV screen.

Brightness, maybe, like a DataLink watch.  Come to think of it, the 
first "dildonics" product for the web works like that: a little sensor 
suction-cupped to the screen modulated a vibrator.

But really, I try to keep this on-topic for the CCC ML.  :-)

- John



From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Dec 10 16:38:57 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.5.32.19981210085527.01d7fc90@pc>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981210163857.00fcdce0@pc>

At 10:12 PM 12/10/98 +0000, Tony Duell wrote:
>> 
>> In college, I worked with a DEC MiniMINC, a breadbox-sized 11/03
>> machine, but I've never seen one since.  Love to get one.
>
>I've heard of the miniMINC. Wasn't it based on the PDT11/150? 

I didn't know it by that name.  I remember a white metal box,
about as wide as its eight-inch drive, maybe 15 inches tall,
running RT-11 and a BASIC at least.

- John



From fmc at reanimators.org  Thu Dec 10 16:40:02 1998
From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Just bought this . . .
In-Reply-To: Christian Fandt's message of Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:17:12 -0500
References: <4.1.19981210154825.00abf550@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: <199812102240.OAA01552@daemonweed.reanimators.org>

Christian Fandt  wrote:
> Anybody have experience with using normal xerographic copy paper instead of
> the HP-specified Thinkjet paper? If so, how are the results? 

It depends on the cartridge, or more precisely the ink in the
cartridge.  When the Thinkjet first came out, there was only one type
of cartridge and you were encouraged to use the special Thinkjet paper
-- plain paper would work but didn't absorb the ink as well, and so
the printing would be sort of smeared but legible.  

Later, HP came up with plain-paper cartridges and sold both flavors.
I don't know whether they still sell the cartridges for Thinkjet
paper, but I guess that if you can get the paper you can probably get
the cartridges too.  They are the same cartridges as for the QuietJet
printers (same idea but wider carriage) so I'd expect you can still
get them in office-supply stores.

-Frank McConnell


From cfandt at netsync.net  Thu Dec 10 17:02:50 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: OT: Re: The Purple One (was Modem tones over television or
   radio)
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981210125212.009e5f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
References: <199812102028.UAA27865@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
 <3.0.5.32.19981210134431.010265e0@pc>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981210174911.00adb450@206.231.8.2>

At 12:54 12/10/98 -0800, Chuck McManis wrote:
>Lots of people in the states sell them, its called the "Actimates" Barney.
>As I understood it the toy "saw" signals in the form of IR coded pulses in

IR??? I don't think the red phosphor on the CRT screen emits anything in
the IR range. If it did, the electron beam hitting the red phosphor would
still emit visible light too and there might be an apparent flickering
image. Somewhere around in my color TV archives I think I've got a
technical bulletin from RCA on their color picture tube phosphors which
could verify the spectral output. (RCA developed the first tri-color CRT to
work with their electronic color system introduced in 1953.)

My guess would be that a single scan frame out of the 30 frames-per-second
(in the NTSC standard) picture signal would be blanked at a rate that the
toy's electronics would decode as specific commands. Usually, the 1 frame
missed out of 30 is not noticed by the human eye depending upon the light
saturation of the scene transmitted.

>the video and responded appropriately. There are a couple of groups on the
>net who have hacked the toy to give the dinosaur an extended, if somewhat
>less refined, vocabulary.

Oooh hoo hoo! I can imagine the fun which ensues:)

Regards,  Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Thu Dec 10 19:06:34 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Tek 31 was Re: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.1.16.19981209232016.4aff716c@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981210190634.2e9f94a2@intellistar.net>

Tony,

  Thanks for the info. I'll look for the DC 300s.  In fact, someone on the
list has already offered me some :-)

   Joe


At 06:50 PM 12/10/98 +0000, you wrote:
>> ones fo the 4051?  My 4051 manual says that they're standard DC 300 tapes.
>> I got one tape with the machine. I have no idea how hard DC 300s are to
>> find anymore.
>
>DC300 became DC300XLP (longer tape), and are the same size as DC600 
>cartridges. DC300XLP tapes are still sold in the UK.
>
>A word of warning. Some of the earlier tape drives, like the Archive
>Sidewider have fairly soft heads. Use DC600s (thinner tape) in those, and
>the heads will wear slightly differently. And then you'll find that DC300s
>are difficult to read. I'll use DC300XLPs but nothing thinner. 
>
>-tony
>
>



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Thu Dec 10 19:10:06 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4.1.19981209210741.00aaf440@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981210191006.3027eb72@intellistar.net>

Tony,

  Do you know anything about the Tektronix 4096 plotters?  I saw one the
other day. I started to buy it to add to my 4051 (it has the GP-IB interface).

   Joe

At 07:03 PM 12/10/98 +0000, you wrote:
>> >Any other PERQ-fanatics here? Any model of PERQ, I am not expecting 3a or 
>> >T4 owners to appear :-)
>> 
>> I have a feeling you would be the only person within our list and perhaps
>> most other computer collectors who has a PERQ. I never seen one, know very
>
>That depends on the group of collectors. There are a number of serious 
>'PERQ-fantics' around, but for some reason, not many are on this list.
>
>> >You _have_ a Tek 31? Wow! I've heard of it (and the similar 21), but 
>> >never seen one.
>
>[...]
>
>> Never heard of a TEK 31 myself  'till then. When I saw it I figured I had
>> better grab it since I felt it was a rather rare thing even back then. I
>> don't recall finding anything on it in my collection of older TEK catalogs.
>
>There was an article on them (21 and 31) in Tekscope when they came out. 
>Alas I didn't rescue the pile of Tekscopes that I read that in - some 
>other collector got them. I got the HP journals (including the one on the 
>9100 ;-))
>
>[...]
>
>> Was the TEK 21 you mentioned above earlier than the TEK 31 or just
>> different in other ways?
>
>It came out at the same time. It was a simpler machine, I was going to 
>say non-programmable, apart from the fact that I have a part number for 
>an operating/programming manual for it. Maybe it didn't have all the 
>'scientific' functions.
>
>> 
>> >
>> >However, I do have the service manual for the 4661 plotter that goes with 
>> >these machines. I'm not getting rid of it - I have a 4662 plotter and 
>> >much of the mechanics is the same - but I can provide info from it.
>> 
>> Are these plotters similar in concept to the 4331 printers? Used a special
>> thermal paper I think. Such printer could hang off my TEK 4015-1 graphics
>
>No, they're actual flatbed pen plotters.
>
>> terminal and print directly from the screen. The 401x series had an X-Y
>> analog plotter output for actual plotting.
>
>The 4662 is a normal (although not HPGL) GPIB or RS232 interfaced 
>plotter. It was used with the 405x series amongst other things. The 4661 
>was a similar unit with a 21/31 calculator interface (and totally 
>different electronics).
>
>> 
>> >
>> >Here is the pinout of the calculator I/O connector. 
>> 
>> Evidently in that service manual it mentions the plotter could hang off a
>> TEK 31, true? If so, then this is indeed the connector pinout for my TEK
>
>Yes. That's why I mentioned it. That should be the pinout of the 
>connector on the back of the 31. Alas I don't have the 'interface 
>specification' (I can find the Tek part number if you want to try to 
>obtain it) for this machine.
>
>> >I have an incomplete (still missing the lights-and-switches board) Nova 
>> >1210 here.
>> 
>> Hmmm, I have to check but I *think* there is something about 1210's in the
>> DG Nova printset I have. I know there's schemas for the 1200 and 800
>
>I've got the schematics of the CPU + frontpanel. It's just a matter of 
>finding time to make a PCB, etc...
>
>-tony
>
>



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Thu Dec 10 19:14:30 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Just bought this . . .
In-Reply-To: <199812102240.OAA01552@daemonweed.reanimators.org>
References: 
 <4.1.19981210154825.00abf550@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981210191430.4b0f6eb0@intellistar.net>

At 02:40 PM 12/10/98 -0800, Frank wrote:


 They are the same cartridges as for the QuietJet
>printers (same idea but wider carriage) so I'd expect you can still
>get them in office-supply stores.
>
>-Frank McConnell

  The Canon Diconix printers also use the same cartridge.  In fact, I'm
fairly certain that the HP cartridges were made by Canon.

   Joe



From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Dec 10 17:13:06 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Oral History Questions
In-Reply-To: <199812112037.PAA01053@armigeron.com> (spc@armigeron.com)
References: <199812112037.PAA01053@armigeron.com>
Message-ID: <19981210231306.26966.qmail@brouhaha.com>

"Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner"  wrote:
>   -spc (Wants to know why IBM forgot pull up resistors on the IRQ
> 	controller ... )

Because they stupidly decided to make them

1)  edge-triggered instead of level-sensitive

2)  rising-edge-triggered instead of falling-edge-triggered

Thus, if they had pullup resistors they would tend to trigger by themselves.

Of course, this doesn't explain why they didn't have pullDOWN resistors,
or why they made those two stupid decisions in the first place.

Ugh!  That's yet another reason why even though the IBM PC is technically
within the charter for this mailing list, I still refuse to consider it
a Classic.

Eric


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Thu Dec 10 19:24:16 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: FSOT: Microchannel PC cards
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981210192416.301f5c6a@intellistar.net>

More house cleaning!  Found these two cards; IBM Auto 16/4 Token Ring
Adapter/A (FRU 94X1756) and a 300/1200/2400 Baud MODEM (FRU 53F7748). Both
are original IBM cards. I'll take $20 + shipping for the pair or trade for
goodies for my Altair, Tek 4051 or HP stuff.

   Joe



From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Dec 10 17:22:00 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Digital Group photo from VCF?
Message-ID: <19981210232200.27024.qmail@brouhaha.com>

In the Reader to Reader column of issue 81 of The Computer Journal

	http://www2.psyber.com/~tcj/rtr81.html

Rex Widmer mentions finding a photo of a The Digital Group computer in a
photo on the VCF web pages.  I can't seem to find it; does anyone have a
URL for it, or a copy of the image?

And does anyone have a current email address for Rex?

Rex mentioned that Hugh McDonald published a newsletter with tips on
Digital Group systems; does anone have copies, or know how to get in touch
with Hugh?

The machine I purchased should be here next week.  I've started a web page
at
	http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/the_digital_group/

Since I'm not getting any manuals, schematics, or software with the machine,
any contributions for the web site will be welcomed.

Cheers,
Eric


From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com  Thu Dec 10 17:28:46 1998
From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Digital Group photo from VCF?
In-Reply-To: <19981210232200.27024.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <13410757065.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>


What's a Digital Group machine?
-------


From jimw at agora.rdrop.com  Thu Dec 10 17:31:56 1998
From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Digital Group photo from VCF?
In-Reply-To: <19981210232200.27024.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: 

On 10 Dec 1998, Eric Smith wrote:

> In the Reader to Reader column of issue 81 of The Computer Journal
> 
> 	http://www2.psyber.com/~tcj/rtr81.html
> 
> Rex Widmer mentions finding a photo of a The Digital Group computer in a
> photo on the VCF web pages.  I can't seem to find it; does anyone have a
> URL for it, or a copy of the image?

Well... don't know about the pic on the 'official' VCF page, btu I've got
a shot of a 'Digital Group' system that was at VCF I on my VCF pictures
pages.

The direct link to the page is:
http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw/jcgm-vcf.html

-jim
---
jimw@agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174



From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au  Thu Dec 10 17:32:01 1998
From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Type list (was: single instance machines)
In-Reply-To: <199812101258.MAA04336@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
References: <000601be23bb$436372c0$3ef438cb@a.davie>
 
Message-ID: <4.1.19981211103115.009d4740@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au>

At 01:58 PM 10-12-98 +0001, Hans Franke wrote:
>> I guess prototype 2650 S100 machines / cards qualify?  There must be a lot
>> of homebrew "single instance" machines lying around.  Here's one I'm
>> particularly fond of...
>> http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/weird/s100.html
>> This machine ran CP/M on a 2650 using a software 8080 emulator written in
>> 2650.  Slowly!
>
>Just tell me this is a joke ... not only a 2650 _somwhere_, but
>rather a real S100 system 

I seem to recall that there were commercially available 2650 S100 cards....

 Huw Davies                      | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au
 Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550  Fax: +61 3 9479 1999
 La Trobe University             | "If God had wanted soccer played in the
 Melbourne Australia 3083        | air, the sky would be painted green"


From Innfogra at aol.com  Thu Dec 10 16:56:36 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines, Tek 8000
Message-ID: <9b9533e4.367051a4@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/9/98 3:24:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes:

> 
>  OK, anyone else here got a Tektronix 8000 microprocessor development system
> (either the 11/03 floppy-based one or the 11/23 hard-disk based one)?
>  
I have one of each that are soon to be scrap unless someone is interested.
Then yours will be the only one left. 

I can pack for shipping but they are very heavy.

Paxton
Portland, OR
USA


From yowza at yowza.com  Thu Dec 10 17:34:31 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Digital Group photo from VCF?
In-Reply-To: <13410757065.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote:

> What's a Digital Group machine?

Calm down; nothing to do with DEC :-)

-- Doug



From cmcmanis at freegate.com  Thu Dec 10 17:37:32 1998
From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Digital Group photo from VCF?
In-Reply-To: <19981210232200.27024.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981210153626.009b43a0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>

I believe there was a picture of it, Hans could could take a picture of it
at this point, he stole^h^h^h^h^hbought it from me :-) 

--Chuck

At 11:22 PM 12/10/98 +0000, you wrote:
>In the Reader to Reader column of issue 81 of The Computer Journal
>
>	http://www2.psyber.com/~tcj/rtr81.html
>
>Rex Widmer mentions finding a photo of a The Digital Group computer in a
>photo on the VCF web pages.  I can't seem to find it; does anyone have a
>URL for it, or a copy of the image?





From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com  Thu Dec 10 17:45:46 1998
From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Digital Group photo from VCF?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <13410760161.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>

[nothing to do with DEC]

Damn.
-------


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 10 16:35:37 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Just bought this . . .
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981210154825.00abf550@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Dec 10, 98 04:17:12 pm
Message-ID: 

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From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Thu Dec 10 17:56:35 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <199812102135.QAA00305@localhost>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de wrote:
> Don't forget: the V(I)C-20 was a bit faster and a way better
> design then the C64.
> 

I learned many things about the C64 recently.
First, that it was a underpowered, low quality computer that was more
expensive than an Apple ][ and had less features. I disagree because I
have never liked the Apple ][ more than the C64. 
Second, I learn that the VIC-20, a predecessor to the C-64, was better
than it. How is this? Last I heard, it is the VIC that was underpowered
because it only had 8k ram or something like. Please explain; how was it
better?


> --
> Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
> HRK
> 

----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From zmerch at 30below.com  Thu Dec 10 18:25:47 1998
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: HX20 (was: Re: Just bought this . . .)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4.1.19981210154825.00abf550@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981210192547.00923700@mail.30below.com>

Once upon a midnight dreary, Tony Duell had spoken clearly:

>> They also had an Epson CX-20 handset coupler for $5 new in the box (plastic
>> wrap still on the device). Anybody want it for the cost plus shipping? Let
>> me know ASAP!
>
>IIRC, that's the modem for the HX20. It's a standard RS232 interface, of 
>course, but if someone here has an HX20 and wants the 'right' modem, then 
>this could be worth going for.

I just saw an HX-20 today! I was at a customer's house... he cannot talk
any longer and is wheelchair bound (he was hurt in a motor vehicle
accident). He used the HX-20 to print small notes on the paper-tape printer
(it sounds like a single-line dot-matrix printhead impact printer) and also
has a "Speech-Pak" that looks like it was made just for the Epson and uses
that to "talk" on.

Curiously enough, the text-to-speech capabilities of this machine sound
awfully close to the speech-sound pack I have for my CoCo's... methinks
it's based on the same chipset, as they're roughly the same era.

Another good use that shows "obsolete" doesn't exist if the application
*works*. :-)

Roger "Merch" Merchberger


From george at racsys.rt.rain.com  Thu Dec 10 18:38:03 1998
From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: HX20 (was: Re: Just bought this . . .)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981210192547.00923700@mail.30below.com>
Message-ID: 


On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Roger Merchberger wrote:

> Another good use that shows "obsolete" doesn't exist if the application
> *works*. :-)
> 
> Roger "Merch" Merchberger
> 

In a windowy world there are still plenty of applications that do great
work with an 80X24 character (or much less) screen.

George Rachor



From Innfogra at aol.com  Thu Dec 10 18:14:23 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Just bought this . . .
Message-ID: <86b4636.367063df@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/10/98 2:42:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, donm@cts.com
writes:

> > 
>  > Anybody have experience with using normal xerographic copy paper instead 
> of
>  > the HP-specified Thinkjet paper? If so, how are the results? 
>  
Regular paper works fine except the letters are a little fuzzy. The ink bleeds
a little. Try some of the new inkjet papers. They have a harder surface.
Paxton


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Thu Dec 10 18:49:08 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Modem tones over television or radio
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981210103354.009b79a0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Chuck McManis wrote:

> TouchTones(tm) are used all the time in satellite feeds to cue local

FYI, the phrase "touch tones" is not trademarked by anyone anymore.  I
don't know that it ever was, but the misconception is that it at least
still is.  It's not.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Thu Dec 10 18:52:04 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: IBM 5360 in North Carolina
Message-ID: 


I know where there's an IBM 5360 with all the manuals and system disks
which is probably free for the asking in Grifton, NC (about 85 miles east
of Raleigh).  If anyone out this way wants it, e-mail me.  I'll give you
all the details.  Its in an abandoned manufacturing plant now owned by a
bank from bankruptcy.  Still in fine shape as far as I can tell.  You'll
probably need a big truck with a lift or 10 guys to haul it.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Thu Dec 10 18:57:58 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Oral History Questions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19981209122700.30b750b2@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Uncle Roger wrote:

> I have a chance to speak with the designers of some of the machines in my
> collection.  But other than the basic "when was it intro'd, what are the
> specs, what did it cost" stuff, what should I ask?  What sorts of stories,
> info, etc. should I be trying to preserve? 

Which machines and what designers?

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 10 18:29:31 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981210191006.3027eb72@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Dec 10, 98 07:10:06 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 10 18:34:28 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines, Tek 8000
In-Reply-To: <9b9533e4.367051a4@aol.com> from "Innfogra@aol.com" at Dec 10, 98 05:56:36 pm
Message-ID: 

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From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Dec 10 19:05:17 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Digital Group photo from VCF?
In-Reply-To: <13410757065.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>
References: <13410757065.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>
Message-ID: <19981211010517.27544.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Daniel wrote:
> What's a Digital Group machine?

Well, if you'd bothered to check the URL I supplied, you'd know more about
it than I'm likely to write up in email on a mailing list.



From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Thu Dec 10 19:03:22 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19981209115950.30bf9f86@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <001901be24a2$0cacb6a0$12f438cb@a.davie>

I have a sharp PC-5000, and lots of boxed software and manuals :)


> > I've always wanted to know which machines have only a single instance
> > represented on this list. 
> 
> Okay, here's a couple of recent acquisitions that might be unique on this
> list:
> 
> Sharp PC-5000



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 10 19:08:15 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: HX20 (was: Re: Just bought this . . .)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981210192547.00923700@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Dec 10, 98 07:25:47 pm
Message-ID: 

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From yowza at yowza.com  Thu Dec 10 19:12:30 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: Indexing Byte and using BibTex
In-Reply-To: <007301be23e0$83a92760$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote:

> Does anyone have any experience using BiBTex on the PeeCee? I downloaded the
> Byte indices from 1975 to 1990, but I was not able to D/L any of the
> non-Unix tools from the site I was on.

By non-Unix, I assume you mean Windows.  I haven't tried it myself, but
this looks promising:
	http://software.webset.de/WinTeX/main.html

If you're looking for tools on Windows that can automatically create
indices and TOC's from the BibTex data, I don't know of any.  I plan to
write that software myself for Linux because I want to integrate with
other database info (ties to inventory, histories, etc.)

-- Doug



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 10 19:10:10 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: HX20 (was: Re: Just bought this . . .)
In-Reply-To:  from "George Rachor" at Dec 10, 98 04:38:03 pm
Message-ID: 

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From pechter at monmouth.com  Thu Dec 10 19:29:47 1998
From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981210163857.00fcdce0@pc> from John Foust at "Dec 10, 98 04:38:57 pm"
Message-ID: <199812110129.UAA01657@monmouth.com>

> At 10:12 PM 12/10/98 +0000, Tony Duell wrote:
> >> 
> >> In college, I worked with a DEC MiniMINC, a breadbox-sized 11/03
> >> machine, but I've never seen one since.  Love to get one.
> >
> >I've heard of the miniMINC. Wasn't it based on the PDT11/150? 
> 
> I didn't know it by that name.  I remember a white metal box,
> about as wide as its eight-inch drive, maybe 15 inches tall,
> running RT-11 and a BASIC at least.
> 
> - John
> 
> 
> 

MiniMinc was the PDT11/150 with the EIS/FIS Microm...
I had one for a while purchased under the DEC employee purchase plan.

Bill


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Thu Dec 10 21:32:48 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: what is this:  shorting plug?
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981210213248.47df0de0@intellistar.net>

Stil cleaning.  Found a molded plug with no cable so I guess it's a
shorting plug.  It's bigger than a DB connector but the same style. It has
51 pins in three rows. The name R Squared is molded into it.  Anyone know
what it's for? Anyone need it?

   Joe



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Thu Dec 10 21:35:37 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: FSOT:  Sony MO drive
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981210213537.3e274196@intellistar.net>

I have a complete 5 1/4" Sony MO drive with 7 disks, cables, Bustek
bus-mastering 16 bit SCSI controller, Softeware and SW manual that need a
home.  If anyone wants it E-mail me directly.  I'll sell it outright or
trade for somehting that I can use.

   Joe



From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Dec 10 19:35:38 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:06 2005
Subject: HX20 (was: Re: Just bought this . . .)
In-Reply-To:  (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk)
References: 
Message-ID: <19981211013538.27696.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Tony Duell wrote:
> The HX20 printer is quite interesting. It's got 4 print solenoids/pins on 
> a little 'shuttle', spaced 5 characters apart in the same horizontal 
> line. A motor/scroll cam assembly wobbles this backwards and forwards 
> across the paper and moves the paper up one dot line for ever complete 
> movement of the shuttle. The HX20 electronics sends appropriately timed 
> pulses to the solenoids to put dots on the paper. It is an impact 
> printer, of course.

The Rockwell AIM-65 printer worked the same way.  IIRC, one of the manuals
contained the source code for the monitor ROM, which included the printer
routines.




From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Thu Dec 10 19:33:22 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: HX20 (was: Re: Just bought this . . .)
In-Reply-To: <199812110127.UAA00306@localhost>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote:
> That's all I have on this PC - text only. And there are plenty of 
> programs I run - bash, perl, gcc, tex/latex, all the gnu utilities, tin, 
> elm, lynx, etc, etc, etc....
> 
> Doesn't seem to limit me too much...
> 
> -tony
> 

What if someone says, "I posted this neat pic of a weird mini on the
'net. No one can tell me what it is. I think this may be one-of-a-kind.
Here's the URL...." and you're just burning with curiousity. What do you
do?

----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Thu Dec 10 19:38:12 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: Digital Group photo from VCF?
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981210153626.009b43a0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Chuck McManis wrote:

> I believe there was a picture of it, Hans could could take a picture of it
> at this point, he stole^h^h^h^h^hbought it from me :-) 

I have a picture of it in my VCF 2.0 pictures but I haven't had a chance
to scan those yet and put them up at the VCF page.

Also, your old freidn has been sitting in my spare upstairs bedroom since
VCF.  Hans went overboard at VCF and didn't realize he'd acquired enough
stuff to warrant the cost opf a plane ticket back to Germany.

If Hans doesn't get this stuff out of here soon its there's going to be
quite an eBay sale :)

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From yowza at yowza.com  Thu Dec 10 19:38:32 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: what is this:  shorting plug?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981210213248.47df0de0@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Joe wrote:

> Stil cleaning.  Found a molded plug with no cable so I guess it's a
> shorting plug.  It's bigger than a DB connector but the same style. It has
> 51 pins in three rows. The name R Squared is molded into it.  Anyone know
> what it's for? Anyone need it?

Sounds like a SCSI terminator for a Sun.

-- Doug



From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Thu Dec 10 19:36:27 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: HX20 (was: Re: Just bought this . . .)
In-Reply-To: <199812110133.UAA00328@localhost>
Message-ID: 

> > The HX20 printer is quite interesting. It's got 4 print solenoids/pins on 
> > a little 'shuttle', spaced 5 characters apart in the same horizontal 
> > line. A motor/scroll cam assembly wobbles this backwards and forwards 
> > across the paper and moves the paper up one dot line for ever complete 
> > movement of the shuttle. The HX20 electronics sends appropriately timed 
> > pulses to the solenoids to put dots on the paper. It is an impact 
> > printer, of course.

May I ask, why do this when it's probably easier to use 9 vertically
aligned pins like the rest of the civilized dot matrix world? (Except for
engineering chauvinism, that is)

----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From red at bears.org  Thu Dec 10 19:41:31 1998
From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: what is this:  shorting plug?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981210213248.47df0de0@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Joe wrote:

> Stil cleaning.  Found a molded plug with no cable so I guess it's a
> shorting plug.  It's bigger than a DB connector but the same style. It has
> 51 pins in three rows. The name R Squared is molded into it.  Anyone know
> what it's for? Anyone need it?

Sounds like an old-style Sun or DEC SCSI terminator. If you count again,
you should see it has 50 pins.

-- 
ok
r.					r e d  @  b e a r s . o r g
					===========================
					[ urs longa | vita brevis ]



From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com  Thu Dec 10 19:42:17 1998
From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: what is this:  shorting plug?
Message-ID: <981210204217.2f000492@trailing-edge.com>

>Stil cleaning.  Found a molded plug with no cable so I guess it's a
>shorting plug.  It's bigger than a DB connector but the same style. It has
>51 pins in three rows. The name R Squared is molded into it.  Anyone know
>what it's for? Anyone need it?

You sure it has 51 pins?  I'll bet you that it has 50, and that it's
actually a SCSI terminator.  50-pin D-subs were common for SCSI connections
on Sun equipment until quite recently.

Tim.


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Dec 10 19:48:28 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: Just bought this . . .
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981210154825.00abf550@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: 

>Anybody have experience with using normal xerographic copy paper instead of
>the HP-specified Thinkjet paper? If so, how are the results?

If it's the printer I'm thinking of, it's the same one that is part of the
"HP IPC" and is basically the same as the Kodak Diconix.  You can get
plain-paper ink cartridges, fairly inexpensivelly.  The old ones for the
Diconix were only good for about 100 sheets, not sure about the plain-paper
ones.  Warning, don't store the ink cartridge in the printer, you're asking
for trouble.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From zmerch at 30below.com  Thu Dec 10 19:54:18 1998
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: Saving vs. Shipping (was: Re: "Single instance" machines, Tek
  8000
In-Reply-To: 
References: <9b9533e4.367051a4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981210205418.00943e30@mail.30below.com>

Once upon a midnight dreary, Tony Duell had spoken clearly:
>> 
>> In a message dated 12/9/98 3:24:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes:
>> 
>> > 
>> >  OK, anyone else here got a Tektronix 8000 microprocessor development
system
>> > (either the 11/03 floppy-based one or the 11/23 hard-disk based one)?
>> >  
>> I have one of each that are soon to be scrap unless someone is interested.
>
>Please, somebody save these machines.... I mean, if they were DEC 
>PDP11's, then everybody would be after them. But not Tektronix stuff for 
>some reason.

I like Tex stuff (that's what my o'scope is nicknamed...) as I worked with
some early color printers from Tektronix when I worked for Electronic Data
Systems (General Motors) back in '89 / '90.

>I don't know why most people don't go after development systems. They're 
>very interesting machines, almost always very well built, and they're 
>still useful for working on classic machines. The In-circuit emulator 
>cards for these machines could be just what you need to fix that home 
>micro...

I'd *love* to own it... but I have no clue how'd I'd get it shipped from
Oregon to Northern Michigan without emptying my pocketbook...

That, and a mostly full basement now; tho that's never stopped me before...
;-)

>> I can pack for shipping but they are very heavy.
>
>Having had to carry my pair across a building, there's no way I'd 
>consider having one shipped from the States...

or across the states... that's my dilemma... :-(

Roger "Merch" Merchberger


From yowza at yowza.com  Thu Dec 10 19:48:11 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: HX20 (was: Re: Just bought this . . .)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Max Eskin wrote:

> On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote:
> > That's all I have on this PC - text only. And there are plenty of 
> 
> What if someone says, "I posted this neat pic of a weird mini on the
> 'net. No one can tell me what it is. I think this may be one-of-a-kind.
> Here's the URL...." and you're just burning with curiousity. What do you
> do?

He asks you to please convert the pics to ASCII art using GIFSCI (TM):
	ftp://ftp.wwa.com/pub/Scarecrow/Gifscii/

-- Doug



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Thu Dec 10 21:51:50 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: what is this:  shorting plug?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.1.16.19981210213248.47df0de0@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981210215150.2f87f21e@intellistar.net>

At 08:41 PM 12/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Joe wrote:
>
>> Stil cleaning.  Found a molded plug with no cable so I guess it's a
>> shorting plug.  It's bigger than a DB connector but the same style. It has
>> 51 pins in three rows. The name R Squared is molded into it.  Anyone know
>> what it's for? Anyone need it?
>
>Sounds like an old-style Sun or DEC SCSI terminator. If you count again,
>you should see it has 50 pins.
>

  You're right it has 50 pins. My eyes aren't what they used to be :-/

  Joe



From dogas at leading.net  Thu Dec 10 19:54:46 1998
From: dogas at leading.net (Mike)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: Saving vs. Shipping (was: Re: "Single instance" machines, Tek 8000
Message-ID: <01be24a9$3ad58fa0$c4c962cf@devlaptop>

>or across the states... that's my dilemma... :-(

ok, so I'm considering a rescue... ;)

Can someone tell me about these machines (and how big they are, etc....)
Initial internet query's yield nothing

Thanks
- Mike: dogas@leading.net




From zmerch at 30below.com  Thu Dec 10 20:06:58 1998
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: HX20 (was: Re: Just bought this . . .)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812110133.UAA00328@localhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981210210658.00964790@mail.30below.com>

Once upon a midnight dreary, Max Eskin had spoken clearly:
>> > The HX20 printer is quite interesting. It's got 4 print solenoids/pins
on 
>> > a little 'shuttle', spaced 5 characters apart in the same horizontal 
>> > line. A motor/scroll cam assembly wobbles this backwards and forwards 
>> > across the paper and moves the paper up one dot line for ever complete 
>> > movement of the shuttle. The HX20 electronics sends appropriately timed 
>> > pulses to the solenoids to put dots on the paper. It is an impact 
>> > printer, of course.
>
>May I ask, why do this when it's probably easier to use 9 vertically
>aligned pins like the rest of the civilized dot matrix world? (Except for
>engineering chauvinism, that is)

Portability (size), power requirements, reliability (remember... this was
one of the first; if not the first commercial laptop ever).

The Epson HX-20 is a very small (never held one, but they look to weigh 5-6
pounds)... complete with mini-printer (prolly 20 chrs wide), computer with
a full-sized keyboard, mini-cassette for data/proggie storage, what looked
to be a 20 char by 4 line LCD and in the case I mentioned earlier, a
speech-pak for voice synthesis.

It's quite doubtful Epson could shoehorn an FX-80 printhead & carriage
reliably in that... and if they could, I doubt you could power it for long.

And yes, this all ran on batteries for prolly a very long time (16-20 hours
on 4 AA batteries in the case of the Tandy 200-100 respectively), depending
on use of the peripherals, and I think it used industry standard batteries
as well.

HTH,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger


From gram at cnct.com  Thu Dec 10 20:34:03 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: VIC's in Germany (was: Re: "Single instance" machines
References: <199812101444.OAA23798@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> <199812101839.SAA21535@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <3670849B.3F90579B@cnct.com>

Hans Franke wrote:
> 
> > > > > VIC-20 (or VC20 as they have been sold in Germany) are
> > > > Trivia question: Why are VIC-20's called VC-20 in Germany?
> > > Am I allowed to answer ?
> > Sure!
> 
> First, like Cameron already explaned, if VIC is pronounced
> as one word it gives the same sound as f*ck (*insert here the
> language specific vovel) - this is region dependant, but
> especialy true in the area where Commodore was located.
> Second, if spelled (Vau Ih Ceh) it sounds clumbsy, while
> VC (Vau Ceh) could be spoken fluent. And third, Commodore
> tried to catch up with the marketing idea of a VolksComputer.
> Like the Volkswagen :)
> 
> Also the C64 was marketed as VC 64 in the beginning :)

Yeah, well, VIC'em if they can't take a joke.  (Unless you'd
rather TI'em up).
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Thu Dec 10 20:36:20 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: HX20 (was: Re: Just bought this . . .)
References: <199812110133.UAA00328@localhost> <3.0.1.32.19981210210658.00964790@mail.30below.com>
Message-ID: <36708522.80C78DDD@geocities.com>

Roger Merchberger wrote:

> Portability (size), power requirements, reliability (remember... this was
> one of the first; if not the first commercial laptop ever).
>

 This was a battery-powered printer? In that case, I sit slackjawed in
fascination at the ingenuity of this engineering. I want one!


--------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com





From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Dec 10 20:45:31 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812102135.QAA00305@localhost>
Message-ID: 

>I learned many things about the C64 recently.
>First, that it was a underpowered, low quality computer that was more
>expensive than an Apple ][ and had less features. I disagree because I
>have never liked the Apple ][ more than the C64.

More expensive?!?!  The C-64 with a C-1541 would have been about $600 when
introduced IIRC, at the same time a Apple ][ was about $1200-1500 I believe.

>Second, I learn that the VIC-20, a predecessor to the C-64, was better
>than it. How is this? Last I heard, it is the VIC that was underpowered
>because it only had 8k ram or something like. Please explain; how was it
>better?

The VIC had about 3.5k base, with 8k and 16k (I've heard of a 32k)
expansions.  Might have been faster, but even I'll admit the C-64 was
better since it came with 64k, better graphics and sprites.  A VIC-20 with
Datacasette was my only computer from 1981 or 1982-1986.  In mid-87 I got a
Kaypro 2000 laptop, what a change!

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From Innfogra at aol.com  Thu Dec 10 18:51:11 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: DC 300XL Tapes
Message-ID: <303fb39f.36706c7f@aol.com>

I have a case, maybe more, of new DC300XLs for sale. $3 singles, 2 for $5, $10
for a box of 5, plus shipping.

I also have used DC600s for $1 each

The Tektronix 31 takes a custom small tape. I may have a few around. I used
too but I haven't seen any lately. I will continue to look.

Please reply to me directly at whoagiii@aol.com


From cube at msn.fullfeed.com  Wed Dec  9 20:21:02 1998
From: cube at msn.fullfeed.com (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981209130102.00aa0100@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: 

I have a working 1200 (at least it was the last time I powered it on), and
one for parts.

Jay

At 01:08 PM 12/9/98 -0500, you wrote:
> ... snip...
>Also, I haven't heard of anyone in our own group on the list mentioning
>they have a DG Nova 1200.
>
>  ... snip...
>Regards,  Chris
>-- --
>Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
>Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
>Member of Antique Wireless Association
>        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/
> 


From cfandt at netsync.net  Thu Dec 10 21:06:55 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: Just bought this . . .
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4.1.19981210154825.00abf550@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981210210642.00ace830@206.231.8.2>

At 17:48 12/10/98 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote:
>>Anybody have experience with using normal xerographic copy paper instead of
>>the HP-specified Thinkjet paper? If so, how are the results?
>
>If it's the printer I'm thinking of, it's the same one that is part of the
>"HP IPC" and is basically the same as the Kodak Diconix.  You can get
>plain-paper ink cartridges, fairly inexpensivelly.  The old ones for the
>Diconix were only good for about 100 sheets, not sure about the plain-paper
>ones.  Warning, don't store the ink cartridge in the printer, you're asking
>for trouble.

Thanks everybody who answered this question. I'll look for a plain paper
cartridge from Office Max or such and try out the printer sometime.

The original cartridge shipped with the unit is still sealed in its
container. The "Use By:" date is Dec 1986. I don't think I'll waste my time
opening it since there's a possibility it is no good. I'll just keep it
unopened with the printer and packaging as part of its original shipment
and use new ones.

Regards,  Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/


From Innfogra at aol.com  Thu Dec 10 19:05:24 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: NorthStar drives in cabinet
Message-ID: <40a9f03b.36706fd4@aol.com>

Bob;

I found another lost SOL in the warehouse the other day. It is still in a box
on the bottom of the pallet. It may be a while before I can actually get at
it.

If interested in it please contact me at whoagiii@aol.com

Paxton


From yowza at yowza.com  Thu Dec 10 21:15:26 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: Daisy
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981210210642.00ace830@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: 

My life is complete.  I just heard a recording of a 1961 IBM 7094 sing "A
Bicycle Built for Two":
	http://www.vortex.com/av.html#DAISY

-- Doug



From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Dec 10 21:16:21 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To:  (healyzh@aracnet.com)
References: <199812102135.QAA00305@localhost> 
Message-ID: <19981211031621.28330.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Zane wrote:
> More expensive?!?!  The C-64 with a C-1541 would have been about $600 when
> introduced IIRC, at the same time a Apple ][ was about $1200-1500 I believe.

No, at intro the C-64 listed for US $599.  I don't recall the price of the
1541, but I'm pretty sure it was at least $250.

But the original comment was that the complete C64 system cost more than
a complete A][ system in Germany; US prices are irrelevant.


From cube at msn.fullfeed.com  Thu Dec 10 21:14:12 1998
From: cube at msn.fullfeed.com (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <199812110326.VAA01491@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com>

Boy, does that bring back memories.  When I was in middle school, a fellow
from 3M (I think his name was Doug Kinney) visited our school with a couple
of computers.  One was quite large - in a rack, and used decimal
arithmatic.  The other was a binary computer, and was much smaller.  It was
named "Little Binary Joe".

He left behind a schematic for some JK flip flops built out of Motorola
2N554 power transistors, and it used #49 light bulbs (not the more common
#47 bulbs).  A friend of mine convinced me that we should try and build it.
 We scrounged for parts, wrote letters, etc.  Got a free dial from the
telephone company, free resistors from Hamilton Hall in Milwaukee, but
Motorola would not come thru with the transistors.  We eventually had to
save up and order them.  We got about 4 flip flops built.

That got me started in electronics, from which I jumped into Computer Science.

Jay

At 02:55 AM 12/10/98 -0600, you wrote:
>On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote:
>
>> And the 1/3 part is in the form of the "electronic" computer I'm building
>> from the January 1960 issue of Electronics Illustrated...(flip-flops,
>> light-bulbs, and a rotary phone dial - woo-hoo!) I'm about 1/3
>> completed...
>
>One of my favorite early personal computers!  I regret that the designer
>didn't give it a name, though.  Specs:
>
>Name: "Electronic Computer"
>Intro: Jan 1960
>Price: approx $35
>Technology: discrete transistors
>Memory: 6 bits
>Input: rotary telephone dial
>Clock speed: as fast as you can dial
>Output: 12 incandescent lights
>Programming language: patch cords
>
>The author describes how to add, subtract, multiply, and divide on this
>box, but it's really more of a calculator than a computer since it doesn't
>have control logic or a clock.
>
>I hope to do a web page some day that describes this machine and several
>other home computers from the 1950's and 1960's.
>
>-- Doug
> 


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Dec 10 21:31:23 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <19981211031621.28330.qmail@brouhaha.com>
References:  (healyzh@aracnet.com)
 <199812102135.QAA00305@localhost> 
Message-ID: 

>Zane wrote:
>> More expensive?!?!  The C-64 with a C-1541 would have been about $600 when
>> introduced IIRC, at the same time a Apple ][ was about $1200-1500 I believe.
>
>No, at intro the C-64 listed for US $599.  I don't recall the price of the
>1541, but I'm pretty sure it was at least $250.

I was thinking both were about $300 each.  I'm pretty sure that's what the
drive was as I seem to recall it cost as much as my VIC-20 did, which when
I got it was $300.

>But the original comment was that the complete C64 system cost more than
>a complete A][ system in Germany; US prices are irrelevant.

Ah, I thought Max was refering to US systems.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Dec 10 21:35:27 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: Just bought this . . .
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981210210642.00ace830@206.231.8.2>
References: 
 <4.1.19981210154825.00abf550@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: 

>Thanks everybody who answered this question. I'll look for a plain paper
>cartridge from Office Max or such and try out the printer sometime.

The MicroWarehouse catalogue has "Plain Paper" cartridges for $11.  It's
Item No. 6339 and HP Ref. 51604A.

>The original cartridge shipped with the unit is still sealed in its
>container. The "Use By:" date is Dec 1986. I don't think I'll waste my time
>opening it since there's a possibility it is no good. I'll just keep it
>unopened with the printer and packaging as part of its original shipment
>and use new ones.

If it's still sealed, I can just about guarentee it's usable.  I've used
them several years after they were opened without any problem.  The problem
would probably be finding the special paper.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From scott at isd.canberra.edu.au  Thu Dec 10 21:47:52 1998
From: scott at isd.canberra.edu.au (Scott McLauchlan)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: Speech synthesiser chip (was Re: HX20)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19981211144751.009c7430@cts.canberra.edu.au>

At 01:08 11/12/98 +0000, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:

>> Curiously enough, the text-to-speech capabilities of this machine sound
>> awfully close to the speech-sound pack I have for my CoCo's... methinks
>> it's based on the same chipset, as they're roughly the same era.
>
>Could well be. There were a pair of chips from GI - one was the SPO256 
>which was a speech synthesiser chip, and the other was the CTS256 which 
>was a PIC7000 (TMS7000-a-like), I think, programmed with the 
>text-to-speech algorithm. The Speech-sound pack for the Coco used a 
>microcontroller (I forget which) with much the same algorithm, but also 
>with commands to control an AY3-891x sound chip.

These chips (the SPO256-AL2 and the CTS256A-AL2) seem really hard to find
these days, but I've found a supplier of them if anyone is interested.  A
U.S. company called SMC Electronics, based in Brockton, MA, has the
SPO256-AL2 for $US5.00 and the CTS256A-AL2 for $US7.50 (both include
specification and application sheets).

SMC Electronics web page is http://personal.tmlp.com/SMCONE/

The chips are listed on http://personal.tmlp.com/SMCONE/IC.HTM

Regards,

|         Scott McLauchlan          |E-Mail: scott@cts.canberra.edu.au |
|       Network Services Team       |Phone : +61 2 6201 5544 (Ext.5544)|
|      Client Services Division     |Post  : University of Canberra,   |
| University of Canberra, AUSTRALIA |        ACT, 2601, AUSTRALIA.     |


From gram at cnct.com  Thu Dec 10 21:58:36 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: HX20 (was: Re: Just bought this . . .)
References: 
Message-ID: <3670986C.DC464829@cnct.com>

Tony Duell wrote:

> >
> > Another good use that shows "obsolete" doesn't exist if the application
> > *works*. :-)
> 
> Of course not. Old tools carry on doing the job they've always done. No
> reason to ever upgrade unless you need new functionality.

Almost especially in medical technology like in the example given.
My wife (the nurse) specialised in home care of {para|quadra}plegics
and once a patient with limited mobility has learned to use a tool
adequately, it works.  Efforts by the "well-meaning" to get that
patient to use something "better" (the "well-meaning" being either
students with research projects or tax-paid "social" workers) have
the drawback of trying to replace skills that were a bitch to
develop in the first place with a new set that would take years --
as many years as learning the skills that work.  Of course, the kids
with fresh education and materials have priority over those who've
actually helped people.  Most of those kids should be kneecapped and
encouraged to swim the Pacific.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From gram at cnct.com  Thu Dec 10 22:10:27 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: HX20 (was: Re: Just bought this . . .)
References: 
Message-ID: <36709B33.2E77BE6F@cnct.com>

Max Eskin wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote:
> > That's all I have on this PC - text only. And there are plenty of
> > programs I run - bash, perl, gcc, tex/latex, all the gnu utilities, tin,
> > elm, lynx, etc, etc, etc....
> >
> > Doesn't seem to limit me too much...
> >
> > -tony
> >
> 
> What if someone says, "I posted this neat pic of a weird mini on the
> 'net. No one can tell me what it is. I think this may be one-of-a-kind.
> Here's the URL...." and you're just burning with curiousity. What do you
> do?

Lynx browses the web just fine, and will write files to disk.  After
that many systems can view graphic files off-line.  If I recall the
specs for Tony's Perq, he can view it quite adequately.  (Oh, yeah,
he has to move the graphic file from his text PC to his Perq -- I'll
take it as a given that he can manage that -- I could if I had three
minutes introduction and I have reason to believe Tony is smarter
than I am).
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From mbg at world.std.com  Thu Dec 10 22:13:47 1998
From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
Message-ID: <199812110413.AA26821@world.std.com>


>MiniMinc was the PDT11/150 with the EIS/FIS Microm...
>I had one for a while purchased under the DEC employee purchase plan.

Thanks, I didn't know that is what constituted a MiniMINC.  Since I
upgraded all the PDT-150s I have at home to EIS/FIS, then I guess
they all qualify as MiniMINCs now, eh?

					Megan Gentry
					Former RT-11 Developer

+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL   | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group |          (home):  mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation    | addresses need '@' in place of '!'  |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43   | URL:     http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | 
| Nashua, NH 03062               | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055                 |  required." - mbg                   |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+



From gram at cnct.com  Thu Dec 10 22:32:20 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: Modem tones over television or radio
References: 
Message-ID: <3670A054.9C52E971@cnct.com>

Sam Ismail wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Chuck McManis wrote:
> 
> > TouchTones(tm) are used all the time in satellite feeds to cue local
> 
> FYI, the phrase "touch tones" is not trademarked by anyone anymore.  I
> don't know that it ever was, but the misconception is that it at least
> still is.  It's not.

Never was that I know of.  And if it had been, we'd have heard
something about a lawsuit.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From mbg at world.std.com  Thu Dec 10 22:27:49 1998
From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: Rummaging through my document collection recently...
Message-ID: <199812110427.AA06456@world.std.com>


... I came across the MACLisp manaul I used in a 'higher level languages'
course at WPI back in the 70s... it is the 'Moon' manual, for those
who might remember such things... Rev.0 !

I wonder how many of those have survived...

					Megan Gentry
					Former RT-11 Developer

+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL   | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group |          (home):  mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation    | addresses need '@' in place of '!'  |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43   | URL:     http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | 
| Nashua, NH 03062               | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055                 |  required." - mbg                   |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+


From gram at cnct.com  Thu Dec 10 22:38:17 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: Indexing Byte and using BibTex
References: 
Message-ID: <3670A1B9.1904A6E8@cnct.com>

Doug Yowza wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote:
> 
> > Does anyone have any experience using BiBTex on the PeeCee? I downloaded the
> > Byte indices from 1975 to 1990, but I was not able to D/L any of the
> > non-Unix tools from the site I was on.
> 
> By non-Unix, I assume you mean Windows.  I haven't tried it myself, but
> this looks promising:
>         http://software.webset.de/WinTeX/main.html
> 
> If you're looking for tools on Windows that can automatically create
> indices and TOC's from the BibTex data, I don't know of any.  I plan to
> write that software myself for Linux because I want to integrate with
> other database info (ties to inventory, histories, etc.)

Why write it afresh?  Last I heard, all of the old Unix BibTex tools
worked just fine with Linux.  (Yes, they can use "enhancement" to
make them "user-friendly").
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From Watzman at ibm.net  Thu Dec 10 21:54:17 1998
From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: Oh ! You Beautiful Doll !
Message-ID: <01BE2495.AA87B4E0@slip-32-100-187-220.oh.us.ibm.net>

OK, talking about Actimates Barney opens the door to this one, which is otherwise more than a bit off topic:

Does anyone know how flexible the vocabulary is for Talk With Me Barbie ?

[Now I'm never going to be able to show my face in this group again].

I could do some amusing and humorous [NOT Perverted !!!] things with it at work if I could create my own phrases for the doll to say [ok, so I could do some perverted things also, but that's NOT what I had in mind !].

Apparently the toy was not successful and they are being liquidated for as little as $10-$15.

Barry Watzman


----------
From:  Hans Franke [SMTP:Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de]
Sent:  Thursday, December 10, 1998 5:05 PM
To:  Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject:  Re: OT: Re: The Purple One (was Modem tones over television or  radio)

Date sent:      	Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:54:05 -0800
Send reply to:  	classiccmp@u.washington.edu
From:           	Chuck McManis 
To:             	"Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
Subject:        	OT: Re: The Purple One (was Modem tones over television or
 	radio)

> Lots of people in the states sell them, its called the "Actimates" Barney.
> As I understood it the toy "saw" signals in the form of IR coded pulses in
> the video and responded appropriately. There are a couple of groups on the
> net who have hacked the toy to give the dinosaur an extended, if somewhat
> less refined, vocabulary.

Any URL ? I did a quick search, but only comercial sites (like MS:
http://microsoft.com./products/hardware/actimates/barney/default.htm )
showed up - and I got a strange feeling reading about what this
toy is intended to do:


See what your child can learn with Actimates Barney!

Cooperation
Good Citizenship
Following Directions
...


Brrrrrrr.... Brave new world.

Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK




From gram at cnct.com  Thu Dec 10 22:49:13 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: Daisy
References: 
Message-ID: <3670A449.2771CD5B@cnct.com>

Doug Yowza wrote:
> 
> My life is complete.  I just heard a recording of a 1961 IBM 7094 sing "A
> Bicycle Built for Two":
>         http://www.vortex.com/av.html#DAISY

Arthur C. Clarke heard (probably a fresher copy of) that recording
and brought it to the attention of Stanley Kubrick while they were
writing the 2001 screenplay together.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From Innfogra at aol.com  Thu Dec 10 22:39:53 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: Saving vs. Shipping (was: Re: "Single instance" machines, Tek 8000
Message-ID: 

The Tek 8000s are about 20"X12"X24". They weigh a good 75 or 80 pounds, 90 to
100 pounds shipping weight. My Zip code is 97214. Check UPS' Web Page
Calculator for shipping costs.

This is an approximate weight. The machines are in my whse and I haven't been
down there yet today.
Paxton


From gram at cnct.com  Thu Dec 10 23:09:26 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: Oh ! You Beautiful Doll !
References: <01BE2495.AA87B4E0@slip-32-100-187-220.oh.us.ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3670A906.5ED008E4@cnct.com>

Barry A. Watzman wrote:

> I could do some amusing and humorous [NOT Perverted !!!] things with it at work if I could create my own phrases for the doll to say [ok, so I could do some perverted things also, but that's NOT what I had in mind !].
> 
> Apparently the toy was not successful and they are being liquidated for as little as $10-$15.

I'll have to check this out and maybe get a couple of the things.  At
least one to dissect, of course.  Since I've always felt that if the
folks at Mattel _really_ want to make money on the franchise, there
has to be a "42nd Street Barbie" and a "Christopher Street Ken".  And
I thought of that before I moved from several miles away from Mattel
HQ near Los Angeles to several miles from Manhattan.  (There are
similar neighborhoods around LA, but they don't have the international
fame).
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From Innfogra at aol.com  Thu Dec 10 22:59:05 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: Other TEK weight availiable in Portland, Oregon
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 12/10/98 5:49:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
zmerch@30below.com writes:

> 
>  I like Tex stuff (that's what my o'scope is nicknamed...) as I worked with
>  some early color printers from Tektronix when I worked for Electronic Data
>  Systems (General Motors) back in '89 / '90.
>  
Speaking of weight are you interested in a 4692 or 4693. I had two 4691s but
they got parted out, sorry.

I posted on another thread of the dimensions and weight on the Tek 8000s.

Much lighter are a set of emulator plugs for the 7D01 Logic analyzer. I have a
8080 and a 6800 plug in, a couple others and documentation that I am
interested in selling. I also have a few Tek calibration instruments left.

I also have a couple of 4315s, 4404 & 4405 systems. I also have a rare 4113,
4125s, 4115s, some upgrades to 4128 & 4129. 

For Tek Terminals I have 4105s, a 4107, 4109s, 4111s, 4207. 4208s and a 4211.

I also have mice, pads and pucks.

And I am looking for a manual on a 4096 plotter but have not found one yet.

If interested please e-mail me directly at whoagiii@aol.com.
Paxton


From spc at armigeron.com  Fri Dec 11 23:22:50 1998
From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: Oral History Questions
In-Reply-To: <19981210231306.26966.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Dec 10, 98 11:13:06 pm
Message-ID: <199812120522.AAA02731@armigeron.com>

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From nerdware at laidbak.com  Thu Dec 10 23:47:07 1998
From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: Just bought this . . .
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981210154825.00abf550@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: <199812110544.XAA28369@garcon.laidbak.com>

Date sent:      	Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:17:12 -0500
Send reply to:  	classiccmp@u.washington.edu
From:           	Christian Fandt 
To:             	"Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
Subject:        	Just bought this . . .



 
> They also had an Epson CX-20 handset coupler for $5 new in the box (plastic
> wrap still on the device). Anybody want it for the cost plus shipping? Let
> me know ASAP!
> 
> Regards,  Chris
> Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
> Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
> Member of Antique Wireless Association
>         URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/

Yes, I'm interested if it's still there. Let me know.

Thanks.



Paul Braun
NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you.
nerdware@laidbak.com
www.laidbak.com/nerdware


From pctech at davidbowie.com  Fri Dec 11 01:33:52 1998
From: pctech at davidbowie.com (Brian Giacoletti)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: Laser 128
Message-ID: <000e01be24d8$9d660f80$c4b6adce@amdk6-2>

I am in need of a power cord for a Laser 128 from 1985.If anyone can help please let me know.
-------------- next part --------------
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From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Dec 11 01:56:16 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: Oral History Questions
In-Reply-To: <199812120522.AAA02731@armigeron.com> (spc@armigeron.com)
References: <199812120522.AAA02731@armigeron.com>
Message-ID: <19981211075616.29424.qmail@brouhaha.com>

"Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" 
>   Oh, pullDOWN.  Okay.  Sorry.  I'm a software guy, and it pains me to think
> that just about every other computer ever made could share interrupts but
> the PC.  Makes writing of software just that more complicated.

Yes, but I'm not sure you grasp my point that the resistors are not enough
to solve the problem.  They should have made the interrupts level-sensitive;
that is fundamentally what is required to make sharing them practical.

I can't imagine any sensible reason for making them default to edge-sensitive;
the 8259 is very flexible and can be configured either way.  I can only
surmise that they had no clue and decided by flipping coins or throwing
darts.

Cheers,
Eric


From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Dec 11 01:58:03 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: Modem tones over television or radio
In-Reply-To: <3670A054.9C52E971@cnct.com> (message from Ward Donald Griffiths
	III on Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:32:20 -0500)
References:  <3670A054.9C52E971@cnct.com>
Message-ID: <19981211075803.29433.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Chuck wrote:
> TouchTones(tm) are used all the time in satellite feeds to cue local

Sam wrote:
> FYI, the phrase "touch tones" is not trademarked by anyone anymore.  I
> don't know that it ever was, but the misconception is that it at least
> still is.  It's not.

Ward wrote:
> Never was that I know of.  And if it had been, we'd have heard
> something about a lawsuit.

In the United States, Touchtone was a registered trademark of AT&T.  I'm
not sure when they gave it up; it may have been at the time of the
divestiture.  A query of the trademark database reveals seven current
registered trademarks incorporating the word touchtone:

	Touchtone Invest
	Fidelity Touchtone Xpress
	Touchtone Xpress
	Touchtone Jobsline
	Touchtone Rentsline
	Touchtone Transportation
	Touchtone Trader

The last of these was the earliest filed, on March 26, 1992, so I think
it's a safe bet that AT&T gave up the trademark before that date.

In some countries Touchtone is still a trademark of the applicable telephone
company or agency.  For example, in the UK it is a registered trademark of 
British Telecommunications PLC:
	
	http://www.labs.bt.com/projects/voice/talk/glossary.htm

Eric




From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Fri Dec 11 02:36:42 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: Digital Group photo from VCF?
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981210233841.75a7b606@ricochet.net>

At 11:22 PM 12/10/98 -0000, you wrote:
>Since I'm not getting any manuals, schematics, or software with the machine,
>any contributions for the web site will be welcomed.

A bit of trivia...  I was in Denver on holiday a while back, and went to
the Colorado History Museum (Denver has great museums!)  There, amidst a
lot of other Colorado stuff, was a Digital Group computer.  Very Cool, but
I'm sure there are still drool stains in the carpet around it.  8^)


--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                       http://www.sinasohn.com/



From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Fri Dec 11 02:36:59 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: HX20 (was: Re: Just bought this . . .)
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981211000130.75a79f84@ricochet.net>

At 08:36 PM 12/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>a little 'shuttle', spaced 5 characters apart in the same horizontal 
>>line. A motor/scroll cam assembly wobbles this backwards and forwards 
>>across the paper and moves the paper up one dot line for ever complete 
>
>May I ask, why do this when it's probably easier to use 9 vertically
>aligned pins like the rest of the civilized dot matrix world? (Except for

Compare:

o    o    o    o    o

to 
 
o
o
o
o
o
o
o
o
o

Any difference jump out at you?  Yep, the latter uses a lot more vertical
space.  In a laptop, that translates into thickness.  If you want a skinny
laptop, all your parts have to be thin.

As to five heads versus one, you can print five characters at once.  Faster
printing.  


--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                       http://www.sinasohn.com/



From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Fri Dec 11 02:37:03 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: HX20 (was: Re: Just bought this . . .)
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981211001044.75a7ac52@ricochet.net>

At 02:36 AM 12/11/98 +0000, you wrote:
> This was a battery-powered printer? In that case, I sit slackjawed in
>fascination at the ingenuity of this engineering. I want one!

There are, of course, lots of battery-powered printers.  I used a Canon
BJ-20e (or BJ-10e?) for years to print invoices at client sites.  Had a
switch to turn on/off battery charging when using AC so as not to build a
memory in the battery.

Radio Shack had one that was about the size of half a ream of paper, or one
of those clipboards with storage underneat.  Slip some paper inside, hook
up a cable, print, and out comes a printed page.

Mannesman-Tally had one that ran on batteries, did 300dpi, 6ppm, LJ II
compatible printing for under $1K, at a time when LaserJets were about that
price.  

I believe HP's portable deskjet ran on batts too.

Then, of course, there were plenty of portables with built-in printers,
especially those from Panasonic, Canon, and Sharp.  And a lot of the
"pocket computers" (Casio, Sharp, TRS-80, Panasonic) had portable printers
they could attach to.


--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                       http://www.sinasohn.com/



From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Fri Dec 11 02:37:07 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: HX20 (was: Re: Just bought this . . .)
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981211001435.75a7b4ac@ricochet.net>

At 07:25 PM 12/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I just saw an HX-20 today! I was at a customer's house... he cannot talk

If you've never seen an HX-20 before, go to
 (or /clascomp/index2.htm for the new
and improved CGI version!) and check it out.  No pics of the HC-20 yet, but
I'm working on it. 


--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                       http://www.sinasohn.com/



From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Fri Dec 11 02:37:12 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: 24x80 Standard? (was: Re: HX20)
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981211001622.75a7a06a@ricochet.net>

>In a windowy world there are still plenty of applications that do great
>work with an 80X24 character (or much less) screen.

I was asked this yesterday (sorta) -- Why the 80x24 standard of yore?  

I believe the 80 columns comes from the 80 column punched cards, but I
can't remember where the 24 comes from.

Thanks in advance...


--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                       http://www.sinasohn.com/



From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Fri Dec 11 02:37:15 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981211002710.75a79e8a@ricochet.net>

Saw a demo of a neat piece of software yesterday.  Two people were about 35
miles apart.  One pulled up a document on his computer.  Gave access to it
to the other guy who had a mouse and cursor at his end which we could also
see on the screen.  He could point to things, as the two people talked.
Control could have been passed to him at any time.

After a bit, the guy on our end decided he wanted to be able to see the
other guy, so he opened a box in the upper left corner of the screen, sized
it, and voila, there was a video image of the other guy.  They were able to
talk and see each other, as they worked together on the same document.

Pretty darn cool, if you ask me. 



Oh, I kinda lied.  I actually only saw a videotape of the demo.  

The actual demo had taken place 30 years ago in 1968, and the star of the
demo was Doug Englebart.

Think about your first reaction to what sounds like whiteboarding software
that is starting to become commonplace.  Now consider that the demo was
filmed 30 years ago in *black and white*!  That's how far ahead Englebart
and his team really were (or, how far we *haven't* come when we should have!)

Go check out http://unrev.stanford.edu/ for yourself.



--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                       http://www.sinasohn.com/



From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Dec 11 02:55:01 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: HX20 (was: Re: Just bought this . . .)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19981211000130.75a79f84@ricochet.net> (message from Uncle
	Roger on Fri, 11 Dec 1998 02:36:59 -0600 (CST))
References: <3.0.16.19981211000130.75a79f84@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <19981211085501.29714.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Roger wrote, regarding the printer in the HX-20 and AIM-65:
> As to five heads versus one, you can print five characters at once.  Faster
> printing.  

Disregarding the time spent moving the paper, it is slower (5/8 the speed),
since you are only printing five dots at a time rather than eight.  But
speed wasn't the point.

When you include the time spend moving the paper, it is even slower.  For a
line of text you have to move the paper the same amount with either method.
But with the five separate single-pin heads, you have to move the paper
precisely eight times, which typically takes longer than a single
less-precise move of 8x the distance.

The real win was just that the mechanism was cheaper than the more common
eight-vertical-dot mechanisms.

Eric


From yowza at yowza.com  Fri Dec 11 03:20:05 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19981211002710.75a79e8a@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Uncle Roger wrote:

> The actual demo had taken place 30 years ago in 1968, and the star of the
> demo was Doug Englebart.


Engelbart.


> Think about your first reaction to what sounds like whiteboarding software
> that is starting to become commonplace.  Now consider that the demo was
> filmed 30 years ago in *black and white*!  That's how far ahead Englebart
> and his team really were (or, how far we *haven't* come when we should have!)

Blame Microsoft; I do.

BTW, the semi-enlightened folks at HP did try to pull off a little
Engelbart trick in 1993 that few people remember: the HP OmniShare.  It
was an "inexpensive" (~$2500) little computer with a LCD/pen-based
digitizer that had networking, fax/modem, and very interesting
collaborative software built-in.

In won a few awards, and then faded away about six months after
introduction.

The moral of the story is that it's relatively easy to give a good demo,
slightly harder to do a real implementation, and then very hard to get
market acceptance and penetration for new ideas.

(The real moral of the story is that I have a pair of OmniShares, and I
just felt like gloating :-)

-- Doug



From kevan at heydon.org  Fri Dec 11 04:47:27 1998
From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:
>
> I am not sure what my 2 Systems are. Both are 2-rack units (floppy drives 
> in one 3U subrack, cards in another. One has the 6502 CPU card, the other 

Sounds similar to my System 5, although the only reason I know mine is 
one of these is because that is what I was told by the Acorn employee
whose basement it was quite literaly saved from. (The next day the house
was knocked down because it was unsafe!)

They will be at least System 3's because they are the first of the line to
come with floppies.

> had the (somewhat rare) 6809 CPU.

I have a sales brochure here for the Acorn System 1,2 & 3. Inside it there
is an 'Advance Information' flyer describing the 6809 card. I quote: 

"This Acorn eurocard is a plug in replacement for the 6502 CPU card for
those who wish to upgrade their system to make use of the advanced
facilities of Motorola's 8-bit glamour chip the 6809"

I do like the idea of a glamour chip:-)

> That reminds me of another machine tht needs to tbe 'jump started' from 
> time to time. Does anyone else here have any Whitechapel stuff? I've got 
> a working MG1 and most of a Hitech 10 (I need a case + a few chips + 
> schematics for the latter).

I have an MG1 but I have never had chance to play with it yet. I guess I
will need to 'jump start' it so details of how to do this would be most
appreciated.

--
Kevan

Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/




From bobstek at ix.netcom.com  Fri Dec 11 05:19:06 1998
From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: SOL
Message-ID: <000401be24f8$108e4080$78f7fea9@mycroft>

Paxton -

Thanks for thinking of me.  I have my hands full right now, but I'm sure
that someone else on the list would like a SOL.  (And whoever that someone
is, contact me if you need docs or software.) And in the unlikely event that
no one comes forward shouting, "Me! Me! Me!" then I will save it.)

BTW, I had been meaning to get back to you about that 8" HH DSDD drive, but
"stuff" happened...  Still have one?

Bob Stek
bobstek@ix.netcom.com
Saver of Lost SOLs



From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk  Fri Dec 11 05:23:42 1998
From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
Message-ID: 

>>> had the (somewhat rare) 6809 CPU.
>>
>> I have a sales brochure here for the Acorn System 1,2 & 3. Inside it there
>> is an 'Advance Information' flyer describing the 6809 card. I quote: 

what machines were the 6809's used in? I believe I still have a box of
these somewhere - were they drop-in replacements for the 6502 then, but
with an extended instruction set or something?

cheers

Jules
>
>


From neil at goodnet.com  Fri Dec 11 05:28:07 1998
From: neil at goodnet.com (Neil B. Sheldon Sr)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:07 2005
Subject: Z-80 Emulator
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981211042807.0075dea0@207.98.129.100>


For anyone that is interested, I have a Z-80 Emulator for sale on Ebay.

	http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=48474125

						Neil.




From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Fri Dec 11 07:45:26 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Tandy 1000 TL/2 For Sale
Message-ID: <367121F5.6E08CC37@bigfoot.com>

Immaculate condition 286 machine! 768k ram, 40 mb IDE hard drive, 3.5"
and 5.25" floppies,  monitor port, 101 key keyboard port, 2 joystick
ports, 9 pin serial port  microphone and earhone jacks, volume control,
reset, more. Has 4 open 8 bit ISA slots, nice looking case. Has MSDOS
3.3 and Deskmate built in on ROMs leaving the hard drive free for your
programs.

Main unit ONLY - no keyboard or monitor selling for $30 plus shipping
Main unit with CM-5 color monitor (like new) selling for $50 plus
shipping.

Buyer can use a standard 101 key enhanced keyboard with the standard 5
pin DIN, available everywhere. Documents laying out the specifications
and enhancements are available in the manuals section at
http://support.tandy.com/ and there are also downlaodable setup programs

available for it as well.

NOTE: US 48 states only, no out of country shipments. Contact me direct
at RHBLAKE@BIGFOOT.COM if interested. SHipping will be the actual USPS
rate plus applicable insurance from zip 40144 in central KY to your zip.

Prepayment by cashier's check or money order, COD's may be possible.

Russ Blakeman
Harned, KY




From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Fri Dec 11 08:41:03 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To:  from "Julian Richardson" at Dec 11, 98 11:23:42 am
Message-ID: <199812111441.GAA43862@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From george at racsys.rt.rain.com  Fri Dec 11 09:26:56 1998
From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: SOL
In-Reply-To: <000401be24f8$108e4080$78f7fea9@mycroft>
Message-ID: 

While I don't have room for any of the Tek 8000 equipment I think I could
find room for a SOL if you need to find a home for it.

George

=========================================================
George L. Rachor		george@racsys.rt.rain.com
Beaverton, Oregon               http://racsys.rt.rain.com
                                KD7DCX

On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Bob Stek wrote:

> Paxton -
> 
> Thanks for thinking of me.  I have my hands full right now, but I'm sure
> that someone else on the list would like a SOL.  (And whoever that someone
> is, contact me if you need docs or software.) And in the unlikely event that
> no one comes forward shouting, "Me! Me! Me!" then I will save it.)
> 
> BTW, I had been meaning to get back to you about that 8" HH DSDD drive, but
> "stuff" happened...  Still have one?
> 
> Bob Stek
> bobstek@ix.netcom.com
> Saver of Lost SOLs
> 
> 



From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Fri Dec 11 09:19:26 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <19981211031621.28330.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Dec 11, 98 03:16:21 am
Message-ID: <199812111519.HAA43836@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From erd at infinet.com  Fri Dec 11 09:36:29 1998
From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <199812111519.HAA43836@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Dec 11, 98 07:19:26 am
Message-ID: <199812111536.KAA22016@user2.infinet.com>

> 
> ::No, at intro the C-64 listed for US $599.  I don't recall the price of the
> ::1541, but I'm pretty sure it was at least $250.
> 
> Yep -- for a time the disk drive cost more than the computer. (!)

That was common in the PET days.  I paid $999 for a 32K 9" screen PET in
1978.  The disk drive (2040) was over $1200.  I got a C-64 and 1541
before I ever got a PET drive.  OTOH, I waited so long, a 4040 drive
was $5 at the University surplus.

-ethan



From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Fri Dec 11 09:53:34 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To:  from "Max Eskin" at Dec 10, 98 06:56:35 pm
Message-ID: <199812111553.HAA44044@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Dec 11 11:00:38 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.16.19981211002710.75a79e8a@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <199812111558.PAA06084@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> > The actual demo had taken place 30 years ago in 1968, and the star of the
> > demo was Doug Englebart.

> 
> Engelbart.
> 

Come on - common English problems :)

> > Think about your first reaction to what sounds like whiteboarding software
> > that is starting to become commonplace.  Now consider that the demo was
> > filmed 30 years ago in *black and white*!  That's how far ahead Englebart
> > and his team really were (or, how far we *haven't* come when we should have!)

> Blame Microsoft; I do.

> The moral of the story is that it's relatively easy to give a good demo,
> slightly harder to do a real implementation, and then very hard to get
> market acceptance and penetration for new ideas.

Thats one thing, the other is how superior design (soft
and hardware) can be dumped in favour of crapy PCs.
Back in the late 70s and early 80s we had at SIEMENS a
network of EMS 5800 systems - OEM versions of the Xerox
Star - all over Germany and most European dependances.
Of course not every Employee had one, since including a
laser priter it was some 100,000 Mark value, but at least
most departments that needed to.

Just imagine, a System with 21" screens, mouse, OO desktop,
document centric workflow, WYSIWYG editing (in place etc.),
LAN/WAN networking, laser printers, xxx megabytes of storage
etc. in 1980 and this system was scraped in favour for DOS
(later Windows) PCs with 12" to 14" Displays and WORD (DOS).

And in my opinion no PC (no Win, no MacOS and no Next)
has catched up with the Star - and it's more than 20
years later !

BTW: Xerox' quality was just junk - from 10 systems
delivered to Witten (the SIEMENS plant where they
where configured and repacked) only 5 worked properly,
and 3 more could be reassembled from the five non
working. Like in the SU - 10 tractors delivered to
a farm coop and the farmers had to change parts
until at least 5 of them worked .... :)

> (The real moral of the story is that I have a pair of OmniShares, and I
> just felt like gloating :-)

It might be easyer if you just tell what hand held
device you don't have .... Grrr :)

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Dec 11 11:00:38 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: 24x80 Standard? (was: Re: HX20)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19981211001622.75a7a06a@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <199812111558.PAA06078@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> >In a windowy world there are still plenty of applications that do great
> >work with an 80X24 character (or much less) screen.

> I was asked this yesterday (sorta) -- Why the 80x24 standard of yore?  

> I believe the 80 columns comes from the 80 column punched cards, but I
> can't remember where the 24 comes from.

No, it isn't this easy. First, early terminals had several formats
(like the Siemens 8150 with 54x18 char in 1972). Also there is a
bandwidth problem - for line displays (pixel) the minimum time
to go from black to white defines the wideth of a pixel, for vector
display the maximum of lenght of all vectors together is defined
by the luminescence time of the CRT and the drawing speed. More
vectors (letters visible) means lower intensity, since you can't
extend the luminiscence periode if you want a fast changes including
character delete or scrolling.

For a vector displays (with 1970s technology), a 2000 characters
displist results already in about a half second for screen
refresh. so 80x25 was more then the possible maximum.

For pixel displays the number of characters in a row is limited
by the number of pixels possible to show, if we assume 6 pixels
per character (this only allowes upper case letters) you get
480 pixels in a row - or more than 7 MHz pixel clock (@60 Hz
& ~250 rows)) - already hard to display for 1970s technology.

Now we could add more lines for display, od display the vectors
in a different ratio but this wouldn't enlarge the screen -
Basicly all CRTs are build with a form factor of or around 4 by 3.
Talkin this, and the fact that a letter has  ratio of (a bit less
than) 5 by 2 to be 'well cuted' you get a 10 by 3 ratio for the
number of caracters in a row to the number of caracters in a columne.

So a 40x12 or a 80x24 similar gives a 'good' view (Just for us
ol'apple freaks, didn't the APPLE ][ 40x24 display look _very_
clumbsy ? And didn't the TRS-80 charset lookt a lot more 'slimline' ?)

Gruss
Hans

P.S.: 10 by 3 or 16 by 5 (as in 80x25) isn't realy the question -
I just use always 10x3 since it is easyer to remember

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com  Fri Dec 11 10:13:18 1998
From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: HX20 (was: Re: Just bought this . . .)
Message-ID: 

>> accident). He used the HX-20 to print small notes on the paper-tape
>> printer (it sounds like a single-line dot-matrix printhead impact
>> printer) and also
>
>The HX20 printer is quite interesting. It's got 4 print solenoids/pins on 
>a little 'shuttle', spaced 5 characters apart in the same horizontal 

Sounds famalier - similar to an NCR pos receipt "ANSWER"
printer - Alpha Numeric Single Wire Electronic Recorder
of mid 80's vintage.


	Chuck
	cswiger@widomaker.com




From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Dec 11 11:16:53 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: 2650 (was:Type list (was: single instance machines))
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981211103115.009d4740@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au>
References: <199812101258.MAA04336@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <199812111614.QAA08353@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> >> I guess prototype 2650 S100 machines / cards qualify?  There must be a lot
> >> of homebrew "single instance" machines lying around.  Here's one I'm
> >> particularly fond of...
> >> http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/weird/s100.html
> >> This machine ran CP/M on a 2650 using a software 8080 emulator written in
> >> 2650.  Slowly!

> >Just tell me this is a joke ... not only a 2650 _somwhere_, but
> >rather a real S100 system 

> I seem to recall that there were commercially available 2650 S100 cards....

Do you have more information ?
Could this have been a down under specific thing ?

Gruss
Hans


--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Dec 11 11:16:52 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Linux Q's
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812101015.KAA04986@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 10, 98 11:15:51 am
Message-ID: <199812111614.QAA08356@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > > Does the kernel source count as 'written documentation'? Is it cheating 
> > > to read that? It's how I seem to work out what some of the more obscure 
> > > functions are for...
> > Trapped me :) But hey, source isn't ment to be read ...

> Isn't it? Next you'll be telling me that schematics aren't meant to be 
> read either, and that a pile of service manuals is not 'light bedtime 
> reading'....

Got me again ...

Grins
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Dec 11 11:16:52 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: VIC's in Germany (was: Re: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <3670849B.3F90579B@cnct.com>
Message-ID: <199812111615.QAA08363@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > > > > > VIC-20 (or VC20 as they have been sold in Germany) are
> > > > > Trivia question: Why are VIC-20's called VC-20 in Germany?
> > > > Am I allowed to answer ?
> > > Sure!

> > First, like Cameron already explaned, if VIC is pronounced
> > as one word it gives the same sound as f*ck (*insert here the
> > language specific vovel) - this is region dependant, but
> > especialy true in the area where Commodore was located.
> > Second, if spelled (Vau Ih Ceh) it sounds clumbsy, while
> > VC (Vau Ceh) could be spoken fluent. And third, Commodore
> > tried to catch up with the marketing idea of a VolksComputer.
> > Like the Volkswagen :)

> > Also the C64 was marketed as VC 64 in the beginning :)

> Yeah, well, VIC'em if they can't take a joke.  (Unless you'd
> rather TI'em up).

I realy don't know, but I would put up at least some beer that
an US manager could had done this decision - Germans only
laught at this kind of PCnes...

Gruss
Hans
I'm not a fan of PC, no mather of which is ment :)

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Dec 11 11:16:52 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Z-80 Emulator
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981211042807.0075dea0@207.98.129.100>
Message-ID: <199812111615.QAA08386@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> For anyone that is interested, I have a Z-80 Emulator for sale on Ebay.

> 	http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=48474125

Nice the Nice :) I just can't get the connection to
the Item title: 'S100 BUS IMSAI ALTAIR Z80 EMULATOR'
Is there any S100 stuff included ? Or anything form /
for an Altair or IMSAI ? Or at least a good story ?

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From ddameron at earthlink.net  Fri Dec 11 10:22:13 1998
From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: E.I. Homebuilt Computer (was Re: "Single instance" 
  machines)
Message-ID: <199812111622.IAA09466@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

Hi Doug and all,
At 02:10 PM 12/10/98 -0600, you wrote:
>On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, dave dameron wrote:
>
>> I would be interested in the article. I built the later one (E.I., about
>> 1966) with 60 neon lamps as 6 decade shift register/counters and a rotary
>> telephone dial. This one used 3 12AU7/ECC82 as 6 buffer amps. The diodes in
>> it I used were from scrapped IBM assemblies. I still have some 6V lamps in
>> orange plastic holders from the same scrapyard, used on some IBM panels.
>
>Very cool, Dave!  I didn't know about that one.  Any chance you can
>pin-point the issue it appeared in?
>
I don't know the exact issue. I have it in a magazine- a collection of E.I.
Articles: "Electronics Illustrated Practical Electronics",  by Fawcett, No.
641, copyright 1966. It is a red magazine with a 72 mc radio controlled
system on the cover + "Electronic Computer" + "Low power Transmitter".


>I have the 1960 article, but I haven't built the 1960 machine (yet).
>The nice case alone looks like it would be a coupla hundred bucks to
>replicate today, but I suppose you could just make a bare-board version.
>

-Dave



From fauradon at pclink.com  Fri Dec 11 10:45:40 1998
From: fauradon at pclink.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois_Auradon?=)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Looking for group archive
Message-ID: <00bc01be2525$b0a16f20$1f6e0181@fauradon.beckman.com>

Hi all,
I'm looking for the archive. I know someone has it somewhere but I just
rebuilt my system and lost the whole deal (Who needs to backup?)
Thanks
Francois



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Dec 11 11:55:57 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
References: <19981211031621.28330.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <199812111654.QAA12753@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> >But the original comment was that the complete C64 system cost more than
> >a complete A][ system in Germany; US prices are irrelevant.

> Ah, I thought Max was refering to US systems.

No, it was about my posting - and the reference where A][
_compatible_ (noname) systems.

Gruss
Hans
(Thanks Eric)

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Dec 11 11:55:57 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Digital Group photo from VCF?
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981210153626.009b43a0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
References: <19981210232200.27024.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <199812111654.QAA12757@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> I believe there was a picture of it, Hans could could take a picture of it
> at this point, he stole^h^h^h^h^hbought it from me :-) 

Jep, I always thought living with stolen things
will do a pain to my soul, but it's just great !

Gruss
Hans
(Should I take one ?)

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Dec 11 11:55:57 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812102135.QAA00305@localhost>
Message-ID: <199812111654.QAA12746@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de wrote:
> > Don't forget: the V(I)C-20 was a bit faster and a way better
> > design then the C64.

> I learned many things about the C64 recently.
> First, that it was a underpowered, low quality computer that was more
> expensive than an Apple ][ and had less features. I disagree because I
> have never liked the Apple ][ more than the C64. 

Its less a term of 'like' maybe you discovered the Apple
in a less friendly environment :)

First of all the Apple has been 5 years of software development
ahead - there have been already zillions of programms, when the
C64 could just show his ready prompt. Second the A][ had an open
hardware concept with extension in mind (althrough some real
nasty quirks) so anything from serial to HPIB and from tapes
to Harddisks have been already available in '82. Coprocessors
from Z80 (SoftCard) and 6809 (The Mill) up to 68K or 8086 have
been wiedly available, together with fiting OSes (CP/M, OS/9,...)

And I liked the open system where you could start at a well
defined level of clariety, while on the C64 (like the PETs)
you had to start with a stick called peek and poke to find
your way thru the fog of unknown.

> Second, I learn that the VIC-20, a predecessor to the C-64, was better
> than it. How is this? Last I heard, it is the VIC that was underpowered
> because it only had 8k ram or something like. Please explain; how was it
> better?

(it had only 5 K :)

The VIC20 was running at 1 MHz, while the C64 was running at 0.98
MHz (PAL) and did spend a lot time in hold for the video access
(The Apple had a complete hidden video access, so no time was
taken from the CPU). Efectivly the CPU of the C64 was some 13%
slower than the VIC20 (The higher clock rate in the NTSC version
(~ 1.02 MHz) was countered by the higher frame rate :) - and not
to forget that using tricks like sprites again decreased the
performance. With an exception of the 128 in fast mode (and
of course the fast 600/700 Models) the VIC-20 has been the
fastest Commodore 8-Bit computer.

Also the VIC20 Kernal was better designed and even the same
devices (like the 1540) have been supported faster and more
reliable.

And last but not least, the cardridge system, including the
add on box, did make almost an open system - VIC20s with
PET floppies via IEEE bus or VICs as replacement of PETs
have been quite common.

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Fri Dec 11 11:00:22 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Z-80 Emulator
In-Reply-To: <199812111615.QAA08386@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Hans Franke wrote:

> > For anyone that is interested, I have a Z-80 Emulator for sale on Ebay.
> 
> > 	http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=48474125
> 
> Nice the Nice :) I just can't get the connection to
> the Item title: 'S100 BUS IMSAI ALTAIR Z80 EMULATOR'
> Is there any S100 stuff included ? Or anything form /
> for an Altair or IMSAI ? Or at least a good story ?

C'mon, Hans!  Get with it.  This is just a cheezy way to dupe people into
thinking this thing is worth more than it really is.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Dec 11 12:12:34 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Modem tones over television or radio
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.5.32.19981210085523.01d83cf0@pc> from "John Foust" at Dec 10, 98 08:55:23 am
Message-ID: <199812111710.RAA15001@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> Years ago (1984?) in the UK there were computer programs transmitted by 
> the BBC using a Dutch format called Basicode. 

> I remember staying up late on several occasions, recording off the radio 
> onto a cassette tape and loading it onto my old Model 1 TRS-80. 

> Oh yes. It was called the 'chip shop takeaway service' :-). Awful pun...

> Does anyone else here remember this?

Not from GB, but Basicode has also been popular in Germany,
later on combined with Supertape format to get a comon tape
exchange for a real lot of homecomputers. Also most of the
porgramms that have been published using a bar code printout
in magazines used Basicode, to reach as many readers as
possible.

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Dec 11 12:12:34 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Oh ! You Beautiful Doll !
In-Reply-To: <01BE2495.AA87B4E0@slip-32-100-187-220.oh.us.ibm.net>
Message-ID: <199812111710.RAA15014@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> [Now I'm never going to be able to show my face in this group again].

:)))))

> I could do some amusing and humorous [NOT Perverted !!!] things with
> it at work if I could create my own phrases for the doll to say

Not pervert but still humourus ?

> [ok, so I could do some perverted things also, but that's NOT what I had in mind !].

Ahh, going back to normal :)

> Apparently the toy was not successful and they are being liquidated for as little as $10-$15.

No, sorry, no Idea, but if they are sold ar 10 USD, it
might be fun to get two or three and open one to get
more information. Would this be possible ?

Regarding the size of the pupet, I guess it's only a
fixed programmed text - but if they used one of the
standard designs, adding new, serial ROMs is possible.
Even if tey used a special package to minimize cost.

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From jfoust at threedee.com  Fri Dec 11 11:15:00 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Z-80 Emulator
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812111615.QAA08386@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981211111500.00f7bea0@pc>

At 09:00 AM 12/11/98 -0800, Sam Ismail wrote:
>
>C'mon, Hans!  Get with it.  This is just a cheezy way to dupe people into
>thinking this thing is worth more than it really is.

So entering a description like "It's not an Altair, but..." would
be more accurate and wouldn't attract eyeballs or search queries?  :-)

- John



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Dec 11 12:24:59 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Modem tones over television or radio
In-Reply-To: <19981211075803.29433.qmail@brouhaha.com>
References: <3670A054.9C52E971@cnct.com> (message from Ward Donald Griffiths	III on Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:32:20 -0500)
Message-ID: <199812111723.RAA16250@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> Sam wrote:
> > FYI, the phrase "touch tones" is not trademarked by anyone anymore.  I
> > don't know that it ever was, but the misconception is that it at least
> > still is.  It's not.

> Ward wrote:
> > Never was that I know of.  And if it had been, we'd have heard
> > something about a lawsuit.

> In the United States, Touchtone was a registered trademark of AT&T.  I'm
> not sure when they gave it up; it may have been at the time of the
> divestiture.  A query of the trademark database reveals seven current
> registered trademarks incorporating the word touchtone:

> 	Touchtone Invest
> 	Fidelity Touchtone Xpress
> 	Touchtone Xpress
> 	Touchtone Jobsline
> 	Touchtone Rentsline
> 	Touchtone Transportation
> 	Touchtone Trader

> The last of these was the earliest filed, on March 26, 1992, so I think
> it's a safe bet that AT&T gave up the trademark before that date.

> In some countries Touchtone is still a trademark of the applicable telephone
> company or agency.  For example, in the UK it is a registered trademark of 
> British Telecommunications PLC:

AFAIK these trademarks have only been non exclusive.
For Trademarks there is a distinction between exclusive
and non exclusive use - to name a easy to understand
US based example, there is the trademark 'White House'
(or Whitehouse or whitehouse) - this trademark is at
least owned by 10 different companies (including the
famous whitehouse.com), but non of them exclusive.

Trademarks are normaly only given for a special product
class - for example, a PTC can trademark Touchtone
for their telephones, but a musical instrument company
can also trademark the same name for lets day a drum
computer. Sometimes a trademark could also be non
exclusive within a group. Gerneral Trademarks are
rare (or should be, but most trademark agancies today
grant them to easy - especialy if a BIG company wants
to take it).

Gruss
Hans
(not a lawyer - just a burned child)

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From marvin at rain.org  Fri Dec 11 11:22:19 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Z-80 Emulator
References: 
Message-ID: <367154CB.70743F73@rain.org>

Sam Ismail wrote:
> 
> > Nice the Nice :) I just can't get the connection to
> > the Item title: 'S100 BUS IMSAI ALTAIR Z80 EMULATOR'
> > Is there any S100 stuff included ? Or anything form /
> > for an Altair or IMSAI ? Or at least a good story ?
> 
> C'mon, Hans!  Get with it.  This is just a cheezy way to dupe people into
> thinking this thing is worth more than it really is.

Nope, this is just a way of putting a value on it!

And speaking of value, the November 1975 issue of Popular Electronics
(Altair 680 issue) sold for $41.00.  A week or so ago, the January 1975
issue of Popular Electronics sold for $503.00.  Something is worth what
someone else is willing to pay for it.


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Dec 11 12:38:57 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <199812111553.HAA44044@oa.ptloma.edu>
References:  from "Max Eskin" at Dec 10, 98 06:56:35 pm
Message-ID: <199812111737.RAA17374@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> Warning: heavy bias and Commodore history!

> ::I learned many things about the C64 recently.
> ::First, that it was a underpowered, low quality computer that was more
> ::expensive than an Apple ][ and had less features. I disagree because I
> ::have never liked the Apple ][ more than the C64. 

> [...good description of A2 vs C64 and VIC20 vs. C64 ..]

couldn't have don better (Why did I just answer the original postng ? :)

> The software gap closed quickly.

For gamers of course (althrugh adventures still got out
first on the a][)

> Sound? Without a Mockingboard, don't make me laugh. :-)

Hey, never heared the _TWO_ voices sound programms ?
or one Bit voice samples on the Apple :)))

(Just think about all the work that is done nowadays
to reproduce _real_ beep and boing wit multimedia eq :)

> Nevertheless, though, I don't think anyone will doubt that the 64 has it in
> spades over the Apple in sheer graphics and sound power. And the 64 did
> very well versus the Nintendo, despite the NES' expanded colour palette (I
> think 256).

Well, exactly this is it - the C64 was way more used among
and against video consoles than computers. For a game like
Bards Tale, Ultima or Wizardry (I still can runn the first
3 levels of Wizardry 1 in my dreams) the difference wasn't
realy important.

> Nevertheless, the 64 was a revolutionary improvement in terms of its memory
> and graphics/sound capabilities. The VIC-20 was just better built.

My point.


Servus
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Watzman at ibm.net  Fri Dec 11 11:47:35 1998
From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: SOL
Message-ID: <01BE2504.745E8140@slip-32-100-187-129.oh.us.ibm.net>

If we are talking about a processor technology SOL-20, I am interested.  Where is it, what condition is it in, and what are the terms of the offer ?

Barry Watzman
Watzman@ibm.net


----------
From:  Bob Stek [SMTP:bobstek@ix.netcom.com]
Sent:  Friday, December 11, 1998 6:19 AM
To:  Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject:  SOL

Paxton -

Thanks for thinking of me.  I have my hands full right now, but I'm sure
that someone else on the list would like a SOL.  (And whoever that someone
is, contact me if you need docs or software.) And in the unlikely event that
no one comes forward shouting, "Me! Me! Me!" then I will save it.)

BTW, I had been meaning to get back to you about that 8" HH DSDD drive, but
"stuff" happened...  Still have one?

Bob Stek
bobstek@ix.netcom.com
Saver of Lost SOLs





From cfandt at netsync.net  Fri Dec 11 12:21:48 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Looking for group archive
In-Reply-To: <00bc01be2525$b0a16f20$1f6e0181@fauradon.beckman.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981211131932.00ac6210@206.231.8.2>

At 10:45 12/11/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>I'm looking for the archive. I know someone has it somewhere but I just
>rebuilt my system and lost the whole deal (Who needs to backup?)
>Thanks
>Francois

Hi Francois and others too who may have just joined the list,

Kevan Heydon has an archive site:
http://www.heydon.org/kevan/mlists/classiccmp/

Regards,  Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/


From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com  Fri Dec 11 12:28:18 1998
From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: 2650 (was:Type list (was: single instance machines))
Message-ID: <981211132818.2f000530@trailing-edge.com>

>> I seem to recall that there were commercially available 2650 S100 cards....
>Do you have more information ?

I recall this as well.  The source of more information would
undoubtedly be to page through a big stack of _BYTE_'s from the mid
and late 70's.

Remember, in the S-100 world "commercially available" means that someone
etched a PC board and maybe, if you're lucky, they actually typed
up a manual with hand-drawn schematics.

Tim.


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Dec 11 13:37:18 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: 2650 (was:Type list (was: single instance machines))
In-Reply-To: <981211132818.2f000530@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: <199812111835.SAA21513@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> >> I seem to recall that there were commercially available 2650 S100 cards....
> >Do you have more information ?

> I recall this as well.  The source of more information would
> undoubtedly be to page through a big stack of _BYTE_'s from the mid
> and late 70's.

> Remember, in the S-100 world "commercially available" means that someone
> etched a PC board and maybe, if you're lucky, they actually typed
> up a manual with hand-drawn schematics.

Thats still graet :)
I guess for a working 2650 System one could wrench
a lot of bucks out of my purse :)

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From bobstek at ix.netcom.com  Fri Dec 11 12:49:33 1998
From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Feeding frenzy for SOL
Message-ID: <000901be2536$fe613e00$78f7fea9@mycroft>

Boy, will I have to be careful how I phrase things!  My initial response was
to Paxton Hoag's public Classiccmp message to me that he had uncovered
another SOL (I had previously purchased one from him many months ago).  My
public response was to thank him but decline, instead suggesting that any
other reader of his message or my message might be interested.  I then
offered to take it if no one else was interested (can't have a SOL go to the
junkyard after all).  Apparently several people are interested, some of whom
have contacted me and some of whom have contacted Paxton.  So Paxton has the
SOL - contact him for details.

(Shall we have a private ClassicCmp eBay.com auction and see who will bid
the highest? {{big wicked grin}} We can then replay the messages about
everyone's collecting / buying / selling / bidding / anti-eBay / pro-market
forces / I'd-rather-give-it-a-good-home philosophies.  Are we all unanimous
in our support of diverse opinions? - please raise your hands!)

However, as the last North American bastion against creeping planned
obsolescence (i.e., everything Intel has made since the 8080), as an
original SOL owner, and as a current SOL / N* owner, I am happy to share
copies of documentation and software for cost of copying plus shipping (or
trades - be aware that the SOL manual is very large, but if you can do
without the assembly instructions, it's not too bad - it does have good
schematics and a detailed theory of operation).  I am still in the midst of
sorting out some recent ProcTech finds, and will keep the ClassicCmp list
updated with what I have uncovered and what is available as I find the time.
(Yes, I did find a Helios and no, I haven't hooked it up yet).

BTW, whoever said that I had "too many SOLs"   ...that's an oxymoron in my
book  !

Bob Stek
bobstek@ix.netcom.com
Saver of Lost SOLs



From fauradon at pclink.com  Fri Dec 11 12:53:22 1998
From: fauradon at pclink.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois_Auradon?=)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Looking for group archive
Message-ID: <000a01be2537$87b5cc20$1f6e0181@fauradon.beckman.com>

Thank you
Francois 

>Kevan Heydon has an archive site:
>http://www.heydon.org/kevan/mlists/classiccmp/
>
>Regards,  Chris




From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Fri Dec 11 12:55:47 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: 2650 (was:Type list (was: single instance machines))
In-Reply-To: <199812111835.SAA21513@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <000201be2537$dcf49cc0$2cf438cb@a.davie>

Speaking of which, I have just found the manual for the commercial 2650
board.
It's the SBC 2650 (I'm guessing SBC is "Single Board Computer" - I won't
even bother looking it up to confirm!).    Includes functional description,
circuit diagram, assembly instructions, fault finding software, etc etc.
Wahoo!!
Money is a great motivator ;)
Cheers
A

> -----Original Message-----
> From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu
> [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Hans Franke
> Sent: Saturday, December 12, 1998 5:38 AM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: RE: 2650 (was:Type list (was: single instance machines))
>
>
> > >> I seem to recall that there were commercially available 2650
> S100 cards....
> > >Do you have more information ?
>
> > I recall this as well.  The source of more information would
> > undoubtedly be to page through a big stack of _BYTE_'s from the mid
> > and late 70's.
>
> > Remember, in the S-100 world "commercially available" means that someone
> > etched a PC board and maybe, if you're lucky, they actually typed
> > up a manual with hand-drawn schematics.
>
> Thats still graet :)
> I guess for a working 2650 System one could wrench
> a lot of bucks out of my purse :)
>
> Gruss
> Hans
>
> --
> Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
> HRK
>



From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Fri Dec 11 12:59:51 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
References: <3.0.16.19981211002710.75a79e8a@ricochet.net> <199812111558.PAA06084@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <36716BA6.473C1F84@geocities.com>



Hans Franke wrote:

> Just imagine, a System with 21" screens, mouse, OO desktop,
> document centric workflow, WYSIWYG editing (in place etc.),
> LAN/WAN networking, laser printers, xxx megabytes of storage
> etc. in 1980 and this system was scraped in favour for DOS
> (later Windows) PCs with 12" to 14" Displays and WORD (DOS).
>

>
> And in my opinion no PC (no Win, no MacOS and no Next)
> has catched up with the Star - and it's more than 20
> years later !
>

But you could put a PC together to those specs. As to the OO desktop, that's another
story.

> working. Like in the SU - 10 tractors delivered to
> a farm coop and the farmers had to change parts
> until at least 5 of them worked .... :)
>

What comes to my mind is that once the crops were harvested, there wasn't always
someone to pick them up and they often rotted in the field. Kind of like powerful
computers that aren't being used properly. Think of what Xerox engineers could have
done if they had access to a DEC Alpha or a PowerPC.



From george at racsys.rt.rain.com  Fri Dec 11 13:24:27 1998
From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Annual troll for Ohio Scientific
In-Reply-To: <000a01be2537$87b5cc20$1f6e0181@fauradon.beckman.com>
Message-ID: 


It has been at least 6 months so maybe it is time again.

I'm always looking for OSI hardware.  I am specifically looking for C4 and
C8 machines and/or Floppy drives for such critters.

Perhaps we could create an inventory list among us and see if we might be
able to mix/match to build more complete systems.

I'll start:

I have the following:

C2-4p Empty case
C4p   Comes up with 256 Bytes of RAM


George
=========================================================
George L. Rachor		george@racsys.rt.rain.com
Beaverton, Oregon               http://racsys.rt.rain.com
                                KD7DCX



From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Fri Dec 11 13:10:42 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <199812111553.HAA44044@oa.ptloma.edu>
Message-ID: <000301be2539$f284b6e0$2cf438cb@a.davie>

> Nevertheless, though, I don't think anyone will doubt that the 64
> has it in
> spades over the Apple in sheer graphics and sound power. And the 64 did
> very well versus the Nintendo, despite the NES' expanded colour palette (I
> think 256). In terms of graphic flexibility (without raster tricks), it is
> at least as powerful as the 9918A, and with raster tricks its
> flexibility is
> on par with ANTIC. And SID was more than a match for anyone else
> when "advanced
> sound" was POKEY and the AY synths. I'm glad my parents got me my
> first 64.


Well, being a professional programmer of both the NES and the C64 for some
years, I would probably have a closer-to-the-metal view of things.  The NES
was a nightmare to program, due to the small sprites and quirky hardware.
The C64 offered easy to use graphics, wonderful sprites and simple
architecture.  The NES, for example, accessed all video memory through a
single hardware write/read register after setting a different address
register.  Video access was not possible whilst the screen was on -
everything had to be done in the vertical blank.   THAT only gave enough
time to modify about 50 characters/frame.  All sprite data needed to be
reinitialised every VB period, taking a whole whack more processing time...
it was quirky, and "cheap" in terms of user friendliness.  The NES only had
a single palette, from memory, giving just 13 colours.  The C64 offered
interrupts on a line-by-line basis;  the NES offered only a single "sprite
collision", which could not be retriggered until the next frame.  It was
really really kludgy.  The C64 was streets ahead as a programmers' machine;
there really is no comparison.

Being an ex-programmer of the Atari machines, too (Atari 400/800) - which
used ANTIC and display lists, I'd say that neither the C64 nor the NES
(especially!!) were anything like a match for ANTIC.  Atari were streets
ahead in terms of ease of use and capability - IMHO.  The area where the C64
shone was the large, reusable, sprites.  The area where the NES shone was
uh... uh... well, its a crap machine.  It just had a lot of software.

Just my 2c, as a victim of all the machines.

Cheers
A



From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com  Fri Dec 11 13:38:06 1998
From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Free ADM-5, other stuff, DC area
Message-ID: <981211143806.2f000530@trailing-edge.com>

For anyone who wants a 17-year-old terminal that looks just like
an iMac, I've got a Lear-Siegler ADM5 here that works and I'd like
to give away.  Pickup only, in Bethesda MD (just inside the Beltway).

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927



From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Dec 11 14:31:48 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: 24x80 Standard? (was: Re: HX20)
In-Reply-To: <199812111558.PAA06078@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
	(Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de)
References: <199812111558.PAA06078@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <19981211203148.103.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Hans wrote:
> So a 40x12 or a 80x24 similar gives a 'good' view (Just for us
> ol'apple freaks, didn't the APPLE ][ 40x24 display look _very_
> clumbsy ?

Well, maybe so, but I'm glad they *didn't* go with 40x12.

40 characters was chosen because it was the most that a typical television
(not monitor) in 1976 could display legibly.  And even so, most color
televisions still had color fringes on the characters.

Eric



From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Fri Dec 11 15:24:44 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <000301be2539$f284b6e0$2cf438cb@a.davie> from "Andrew Davie" at Dec 12, 98 06:10:42 am
Message-ID: <199812112124.NAA26496@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From spc at armigeron.com  Sat Dec 12 15:38:37 1998
From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <199812112124.NAA26496@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Dec 11, 98 01:24:44 pm
Message-ID: <199812122138.QAA05052@armigeron.com>

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From neil at netzone.com  Fri Dec 11 15:56:02 1998
From: neil at netzone.com (Neil B. Sheldon)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Z-80 Emulator
References:  <367154CB.70743F73@rain.org>
Message-ID: <367194F2.5F506B95@netzone.com>



Well, the reason that I put 'Altair Imsai S100 Bus' on it is so that people
could find it during the search process.  While other Mfg. used the processors,
most people that would be looking for something like that would also be
interested in that other stuff. Additionally, There were boards made with the
z80 for the S100 bus machines. Could be used by any of those people. No
intention to 'dupe' anyone, just find the ones that would be interested in
looking at it.


Neil.




Marvin wrote:

> Sam Ismail wrote:
> >
> > > Nice the Nice :) I just can't get the connection to
> > > the Item title: 'S100 BUS IMSAI ALTAIR Z80 EMULATOR'
> > > Is there any S100 stuff included ? Or anything form /
> > > for an Altair or IMSAI ? Or at least a good story ?
> >
> > C'mon, Hans!  Get with it.  This is just a cheezy way to dupe people into
> > thinking this thing is worth more than it really is.
>
> Nope, this is just a way of putting a value on it!
>
> And speaking of value, the November 1975 issue of Popular Electronics
> (Altair 680 issue) sold for $41.00.  A week or so ago, the January 1975
> issue of Popular Electronics sold for $503.00.  Something is worth what
> someone else is willing to pay for it.





From dcoward at pressstart.com  Fri Dec 11 16:01:16 1998
From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Latest Project: homebrew paper tape reader
Message-ID: <19981211135239.90b33492.in@mail.pressstart.com>

Richard A. Cini, Jr. said:
>    I saw a project in one of my old Bytes for a hand-pulled paper tape
>reader. Very simple - 9 photodiodes, a light, a latch, a pulse-stretcher,
>and some guide posts.
>    Well, here's the parts I have lying around: a BasicStamp-II, two R/C
>servos modified for constant running, a few switches, and photodiodes.
>    If I get this thing working over the Christmas holiday, I'll post a
>construction article.
>    Any recommendations for rubber pinch rollers? I'm thinking rubber
>stoppers from a plumbing supply shop. These are pre-drilled and come with a
>washer, bolt, and wing nut.

FWIW, I have a "store bought" manual tape reader about the size of a small
candy bar. The circuit board inside has the row of detectors (9 in all),
and two hex TTL bus driver ICs, and that's it. On the outside, a piece of
black
tape with 9 holes punched in it, covers the detectors. Over this is a strip
of clear plastic supported by four very short nylon stand-offs. I insert
the paper tape under the plastic and between the stand-offs. That's all thats
needed to keep the paper tape alined and flat against the detectors. Room 
light is used to detect the holes. The output is 9 bit parallel, which I
connect to a VIC-20 user port with the spocket hole output going to the
interrupt line for that port. Unfortunately writing the software to read 
tapes is one of those projects that I have no gotten back to.
  As far as lighting goes, the Heath H-10 uses a neat trick. In it they
use a automobile tail light bulb which has a filament about an inch long.
They position the bulb so that the filament is directly over, alined with,
and parallel to the row of detectors. This gives uniform illumenation to all
the detectors.
  
 
=========================================
Doug Coward	           
Press Start Inc.          
Sunnyvale,CA    
=========================================


From neil at netzone.com  Fri Dec 11 15:59:33 1998
From: neil at netzone.com (Neil B. Sheldon)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Z-80 Emulator
References: <199812111615.QAA08386@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> <3.0.5.32.19981211111500.00f7bea0@pc>
Message-ID: <367195C5.842BF555@netzone.com>

You only have so much room for the Title. If I had more room to put a 'search'
title that was more descriptive, I would have put it in there.

                                            Neil.


John Foust wrote:

> At 09:00 AM 12/11/98 -0800, Sam Ismail wrote:
> >
> >C'mon, Hans!  Get with it.  This is just a cheezy way to dupe people into
> >thinking this thing is worth more than it really is.
>
> So entering a description like "It's not an Altair, but..." would
> be more accurate and wouldn't attract eyeballs or search queries?  :-)
>
> - John





From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Fri Dec 11 16:05:06 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Help!  PS 2 model P70
References: <3.0.1.16.19981210101738.301fd946@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <36719710.ACDCA09F@bigfoot.com>

Joe wrote:

>   I have a P70 that won't boot. It displays error numbers 167 and 163. Does
> anyone know anything about these?

As said before, you need the setup disk, known as a "reference disk" as these
are commonly acquanted with a dead battery causing the settings to go away. The
single best source for info and file links for the entire PS/2 line is at
http://members.tripod.com/~ps2page/ and you can then download the P70 reference
disk via this page. Note that the machine is not a model 70 (type 8570) but
rather a P70, (type 8573) so make sure you get the appropriate reference disk
file. Once you download the EXE image, go to the DOS prompt and path to where
the download is.Put a blank 1.44 in the floppy drive and then type the file
name followed by an A: to tell it to run and that you wish to make the disk on
A:....An example would be RF8573.EXE A:

Boot the P70 with the disk and it will most likely ask if you wish to run
auto-config. Yes is a viable option. It may ask you for an additional disk for
an adapter installed (there are 2 mca card slots in the P70) so you need to hit
ESC until you can figure out what the additional ADF file is that you'll need.
I won't go into this unless you hae the problem, so if you do email me direct
and I can help you there.

Should you need a battery, take the old one out and go to the local Walmart,
Kmart, etc and look in their photo batteries. These are marked as an IBM
replacement but are actually a standard photo battery. An IBM "computer"
battery runs about $18 but the same battery packaged as a photo battery goes at
about $10.

If you need a little more help write me direct. I do these all the time and
know them inside out. I have one that's even been upgraded to a 486DX that I
gave my wife, and one to the side that's fully there but has a broken hinge on
the screen mount.

To open the back cover, should you need to, just undo the three captive screws.
One is behind the access door, two on  the bottom. Then lightly pry at the
handle area of the cover and it will come up and off. If you find you have a
token ring card in it and you don't have a need for it, pull the card and then
you shouldn't have a need for an ADF file for it. Of course you'll need to
rerun the reference disk.

Russ Blakeman



From pechter at monmouth.com  Fri Dec 11 16:08:26 1998
From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: <199812111558.PAA06084@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from Hans Franke at "Dec 11, 98 05:01:38 pm"
Message-ID: <199812112208.RAA01642@monmouth.com>

> > The moral of the story is that it's relatively easy to give a good demo,
> > slightly harder to do a real implementation, and then very hard to get
> > market acceptance and penetration for new ideas.
> 
> Thats one thing, the other is how superior design (soft
> and hardware) can be dumped in favour of crapy PCs.
> Back in the late 70s and early 80s we had at SIEMENS a
> network of EMS 5800 systems - OEM versions of the Xerox
> Star - all over Germany and most European dependances.
> Of course not every Employee had one, since including a
> laser priter it was some 100,000 Mark value, but at least
> most departments that needed to.

There were a bunch of 'em  (Xerox Star) at Siemens Princeton in 
1985 when I was maintaining the DEC stuff there. 
Nice stuff, great WSYWIC, lousy maintenance problems with the
hardware and software though.


> And in my opinion no PC (no Win, no MacOS and no Next)
> has catched up with the Star - and it's more than 20
> years later !

Yup.  I did get to see them and Ventura Publisher and there
seemed to be some similarity.  Did Ventura start with ex-Star
folks?

> 
> BTW: Xerox' quality was just junk - from 10 systems
> delivered to Witten (the SIEMENS plant where they
> where configured and repacked) only 5 worked properly,
> and 3 more could be reassembled from the five non
> working. Like in the SU - 10 tractors delivered to
> a farm coop and the farmers had to change parts
> until at least 5 of them worked .... :)

They got real slipshod for a while, even on the copiers.
They lost a lot of that business to Kodak (who took over -- I think--
the IBM copilers).

Both DEC and Bell Labs ran those Kodak beasts and you could copy a whole
library on 'em without problems.  Ask me about my CP/M doc set 8-).

> Gruss
> H.


Bill


From dcoward at pressstart.com  Fri Dec 11 16:24:04 1998
From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Looking for analog owners
Message-ID: <19981211141526.90c8130b.in@mail.pressstart.com>


 I would like to make a list of fellow analog computer
owners that are interested in sharing information about
manufacturers, programming tips, histories, books, 
pictures of machines, etc. I know you're out there!
E-Mail me.


=========================================
Doug Coward	           
Press Start Inc.          
Sunnyvale,CA    
=========================================


From cmcmanis at freegate.com  Fri Dec 11 16:27:55 1998
From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Latest Project: homebrew paper tape reader
In-Reply-To: <19981211135239.90b33492.in@mail.pressstart.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981211142501.00b23100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>

I have a similar project (but a distinct advantage) which is I have a third
party tape punch/reader unit from an ASR-43 (the dot matrix teletype) and
it has basically a bad controller board (8048 based, EPROMs (1702's) read
as 0x00 on my prom programmer). I'm thinking of using something like a
BASIC Stamp II to talk to the punch/reader unit that also seems to be some
sort of oem gizmo. 

The bottom line is/was that such things (ie dead units) might be around to
salvage...
--Chuck




From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Fri Dec 11 16:06:39 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Annual troll for Ohio Scientific
Message-ID: <15c5a969.3671976f@aol.com>

I have a C1P with a complete set of documentation and presale material
including schematics. i believe i also have a bare disk controller board, but
i dont know for sure. i might need some of my parts identified. 

david

In a message dated 12/11/98 11:15:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,
george@racsys.rt.rain.com writes:

<< It has been at least 6 months so maybe it is time again.
 
 I'm always looking for OSI hardware.  I am specifically looking for C4 and
 C8 machines and/or Floppy drives for such critters.
 
 Perhaps we could create an inventory list among us and see if we might be
 able to mix/match to build more complete systems.
 
 I'll start:
 
 I have the following:
 
 C2-4p Empty case
 C4p   Comes up with 256 Bytes of RAM >>


From nabil at teleport.com  Fri Dec 11 16:16:34 1998
From: nabil at teleport.com (nabil@teleport.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Rescue a pair of RK05-j's in Portland, OR
Message-ID: <199812112216.OAA25504@user1.teleport.com>


I have a pair of RK05-j's that would love to be rescued.  They
are in Portland, Oregon, and are each in a DEC rack by
themselves.  The racks need to go with them.  If you can't
pick them up, the only way to have them shipped would be to
have someone pick them up, as I can't transport them anyplace.

Free, but act quickly, as they are in my way and probably
won't be around much past this week.

Reply directly via email, I don't read two out of the three 
places this is posted to.


-- 
Aaron Nabil
nabil@teleport.com


From george at racsys.rt.rain.com  Fri Dec 11 17:00:06 1998
From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Annual troll for Ohio Scientific
In-Reply-To: <15c5a969.3671976f@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

That makes two of us... I might start a mini listserve!

George

=========================================================
George L. Rachor		george@racsys.rt.rain.com
Beaverton, Oregon               http://racsys.rt.rain.com
                                KD7DCX

On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote:

> I have a C1P with a complete set of documentation and presale material
> including schematics. i believe i also have a bare disk controller board, but
> i dont know for sure. i might need some of my parts identified. 
> 
> david
> 
> In a message dated 12/11/98 11:15:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> george@racsys.rt.rain.com writes:
> 
> << It has been at least 6 months so maybe it is time again.
>  
>  I'm always looking for OSI hardware.  I am specifically looking for C4 and
>  C8 machines and/or Floppy drives for such critters.
>  
>  Perhaps we could create an inventory list among us and see if we might be
>  able to mix/match to build more complete systems.
>  
>  I'll start:
>  
>  I have the following:
>  
>  C2-4p Empty case
>  C4p   Comes up with 256 Bytes of RAM >>
> 



From dcoward at pressstart.com  Fri Dec 11 17:04:58 1998
From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Oral History Questions
Message-ID: <19981211145621.90ed8b5f.in@mail.pressstart.com>

Uncle Roger  said:
>I have a chance to speak with the designers of some of the machines in my
>collection.  But other than the basic "when was it intro'd, what are the
>specs, what did it cost" stuff, what should I ask? 

My two favorite questions would be:
Do you know who currently owns the rights to the software and 
    documentation for XYZ computer?
And to the owner of those rights:
Have you ever considered releasing the rights to the public domain?


=========================================
Doug Coward	           
Press Start Inc.          
Sunnyvale,CA    
=========================================


From dogas at leading.net  Fri Dec 11 17:05:36 1998
From: dogas at leading.net (Mike)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: Looking for analog owners
Message-ID: <01be255a$c30ac5a0$e1c962cf@devlaptop>

>manufacturers, programming tips, histories, books,
>pictures of machines, etc. I know you're out there!

No analog computers, but one cool book 'Basics of Analog
Computers,Information, Experiments, and Applications' 1963, Bureau of Naval
Personnel, Navpers 92699A

- Mike: dogas@leading.net




From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 11 12:28:34 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:08 2005
Subject: what is this:  shorting plug?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981210213248.47df0de0@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Dec 10, 98 09:32:48 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 11 12:53:38 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Just bought this . . .
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981210210642.00ace830@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Dec 10, 98 10:06:55 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 11 12:57:41 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: HX20 (was: Re: Just bought this . . .)
In-Reply-To: <36709B33.2E77BE6F@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Dec 10, 98 11:10:27 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 11 12:34:37 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: HX20 (was: Re: Just bought this . . .)
In-Reply-To:  from "Max Eskin" at Dec 10, 98 08:33:22 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 11 13:01:19 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Indexing Byte and using BibTex
In-Reply-To: <3670A1B9.1904A6E8@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Dec 10, 98 11:38:17 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 11 12:37:08 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: HX20 (was: Re: Just bought this . . .)
In-Reply-To:  from "Max Eskin" at Dec 10, 98 08:36:27 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 11 12:40:07 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Saving vs. Shipping (was: Re: "Single instance" machines, Tek 8000
In-Reply-To: <01be24a9$3ad58fa0$c4c962cf@devlaptop> from "Mike" at Dec 10, 98 08:54:46 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 11 12:42:41 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: HX20 (was: Re: Just bought this . . .)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981210210658.00964790@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Dec 10, 98 09:06:58 pm
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 11 13:16:49 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To:  from "Kevan Heydon" at Dec 11, 98 02:47:27 am
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 11 13:29:32 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To:  from "Julian Richardson" at Dec 11, 98 11:23:42 am
Message-ID: 

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From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Fri Dec 11 17:31:53 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To:  from "Tony Duell" at Dec 11, 98 07:29:32 pm
Message-ID: <199812112331.PAA31140@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From donm at cts.com  Fri Dec 11 17:51:07 1998
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Just bought this . . .
In-Reply-To: <199812102240.OAA01552@daemonweed.reanimators.org>
Message-ID: 

On 10 Dec 1998, Frank McConnell wrote:

> Christian Fandt  wrote:
> > Anybody have experience with using normal xerographic copy paper instead of
> > the HP-specified Thinkjet paper? If so, how are the results? 
> 
> It depends on the cartridge, or more precisely the ink in the
> cartridge.  When the Thinkjet first came out, there was only one type
> of cartridge and you were encouraged to use the special Thinkjet paper
> -- plain paper would work but didn't absorb the ink as well, and so
> the printing would be sort of smeared but legible.  
> 
> Later, HP came up with plain-paper cartridges and sold both flavors.
> I don't know whether they still sell the cartridges for Thinkjet
> paper, but I guess that if you can get the paper you can probably get
> the cartridges too.  They are the same cartridges as for the QuietJet
> printers (same idea but wider carriage) so I'd expect you can still
> get them in office-supply stores.
> 
> -Frank McConnell
 
In fact, that is about the only place that you can get them!  None of the 
computer stores that I have contacted carry them, but Staples and Office 
Depot do.
						 - don



From donm at cts.com  Fri Dec 11 18:02:36 1998
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Just bought this . . .
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:

> > 
> > I just checked out the newly-remodeled Salvation Army Thrift Store and
> > found a nice piece: a new-in-the-box Hewlett-Packard Thinkjet model 2225B
> > equiped with HP-IL interface.  All accessories are there, plastic wrap
> 
> I picked up the portable parallel model at a radio rally last year.
> 
> There's only couple of common faults. The printheads dry up, but they're 
> replaceable. And the battery packs (I think the HP-IL model is 
> battery-operated) fail.
> 
> The latter happened to mine. What I did was take the pack apart (ignoring 
> the useless warning on the outside - I have never found battery pack that 
> is dangerous when you open the plastic case..). There are snaps round the 
> edges and the cells are stuck to _both_ sections of the case with 
> double-sided tape. 
> 
> The cells are 6 off Sub-C NiCd units. You can replace them (take care to 
> recover the picofuse that's hidden in one of the interconnections) or try 
> the NiCd 'zapping' trick. Either way it's a lot cheaper than a new 
> battery pack from HP.
> 
> The charger for the portable models is the standard 8V 3VA adapter that 
> goes with the 75 (and just about every other HP calculator product from 
> that period).
> 
> > Anybody have experience with using normal xerographic copy paper instead of
> > the HP-specified Thinkjet paper? If so, how are the results? 
> 
> There are 2 types of printhead. One is designed for any paper, the other 
> for the special HP paper only. I got a couple of the latter ones cheap, 
> and I used normal paper. 
> 
> It works. It works fine. Maybe the quality isn't quite as good, but it's 
> readable. 
> 
> > 
> > They also had an Epson CX-20 handset coupler for $5 new in the box (plastic
> > wrap still on the device). Anybody want it for the cost plus shipping? Let
> > me know ASAP!
> 
> IIRC, that's the modem for the HX20. It's a standard RS232 interface, of 
> course, but if someone here has an HX20 and wants the 'right' modem, then 
> this could be worth going for.
> 
> -tony
> 

It was also supplied for the later PX-8.
						 - don
 


From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au  Fri Dec 11 18:11:09 1998
From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: 2650 (was:Type list (was: single instance machines))
In-Reply-To: <199812111614.QAA08353@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
References: <4.1.19981211103115.009d4740@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au>
 <199812101258.MAA04336@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981212110839.00a07100@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au>

At 05:17 PM 11-12-98 +0001, Hans Franke wrote:

>> I seem to recall that there were commercially available 2650 S100 cards....
>
>Do you have more information ?
>Could this have been a down under specific thing ?

I suspect it might have been. After making the comment I spent some time
last night looking at my Byte collection to see if there were
advertisements for one there and I didn't find it. I'm now assuming that it
was Australian only (or the heat has got to me and I'm making things up -
yesterday was about 41C and today is at least that hot...). Sadly all my
old Electronics Australia and ETI magazines got "lost" during a move a
while back....

 Huw Davies                      | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au
 Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550  Fax: +61 3 9479 1999
 La Trobe University             | "If God had wanted soccer played in the
 Melbourne Australia 3083        | air, the sky would be painted green"


From mark_metzler at xoommail.com  Fri Dec 11 18:14:56 1998
From: mark_metzler at xoommail.com (Mark Metzler)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Digital Group photo from VCF
Message-ID: <199812120014.QAA15405@www2.xoommail.com>

Eric Smith:
>The machine I purchased should be here next week.  I've 
>started a web page
>at
>        
>http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/the_digital_gr
>oup/

Great!  I have a photo of some Digital group memory boards 
on my webpage.(Its a lousy photo, that I'm about to take 
again.)

I'll add a link to your page :)

--- Mark Metzler

        VON NEUMANN MACHINES
Online Computer History Bookstore/Museum
http://home.pacbell.net/mmetzler/vnm.html

______________________________________________________
Get your free web-based email at http://www.xoom.com
Special clipart offer:  http://orders.xoom.com/email




From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Fri Dec 11 18:41:42 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Annual troll for Ohio Scientific
In-Reply-To: <15c5a969.3671976f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000001be2568$2ff27d40$3af438cb@a.davie>

I have a nice homebrew C1 superboard setup, with wooden sides and a sheet
metal case.  User has added a "break" switch, baud rate toggle switch,
1Mhz/2Mhz switch, some other doodads.  That's what the OSI machines were all
about :)  I've also got a manual or two lying around.
Also I have a bareboard superboard which has had all chips removed, so it's
obviously dead dead.
My friend has an original, almost pristine, C1P disk system which he'll
never part with.  He has lots of software, too.
I know of a C1P system, boxed, for sale at around US$1000 - out of my
league, I'm afraid.
A

> -----Original Message-----
> From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu
> [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of SUPRDAVE@aol.com
> Sent: Saturday, December 12, 1998 9:07 AM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Re: Annual troll for Ohio Scientific
>
>
> I have a C1P with a complete set of documentation and presale material
> including schematics. i believe i also have a bare disk
> controller board, but
> i dont know for sure. i might need some of my parts identified.
>
> david
>
> In a message dated 12/11/98 11:15:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> george@racsys.rt.rain.com writes:
>
> << It has been at least 6 months so maybe it is time again.
>
>  I'm always looking for OSI hardware.  I am specifically looking
> for C4 and
>  C8 machines and/or Floppy drives for such critters.
>
>  Perhaps we could create an inventory list among us and see if we might be
>  able to mix/match to build more complete systems.
>
>  I'll start:
>
>  I have the following:
>
>  C2-4p Empty case
>  C4p   Comes up with 256 Bytes of RAM >>
>



From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Fri Dec 11 18:44:15 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Annual troll for Ohio Scientific
In-Reply-To: <15c5a969.3671976f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000101be2568$8b0f1300$3af438cb@a.davie>

The OSI C1P was released in the UK as the CompuKit 101.
Here's a guy with lots of information and even an emulator...
http://www.compukit.org
Cheers
A



From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Fri Dec 11 18:54:08 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines (Antic programming, NES, C64 comparisions)
In-Reply-To: <199812122138.QAA05052@armigeron.com>
Message-ID: <000201be2569$ecbaa000$3af438cb@a.davie>

Re: ANTIC programming

Gosh it's been uh... 17 years already?!?!

I started to explain it all from memory, but then found a reference on the
'web.
http://equinox.shaysnet.com/~eparent/atari/8bit/dlinst.txt

Basically you have a mini-program (the display list) to tell the video
processor how to build up the display - what sort of graphics is on each
line, when to trigger interrupts, etc.  The jump instruction was due to the
limited addressing capability of the display list instruction counter - a
big kludge.

Here's the contents of the above URL, anyway - for the record...

Display Blank Scan Lines

      7   6   5   4   3   2   1   0   <--- Bit Number
    +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
    |   | n   n   n | 0   0   0   0 | <--- Instruction Byte
    +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
          \_______/   \___________/
              |             |
              |             +---- Zero
              |
              +---- Number of scan lines minus one

Hex    Dec    Binary       Instruction
------------------------------------------------
  0      0    .... ....    Display 1 blank line
 10     16    ...1 ....    Display 2 blank lines
 20     32    ..1. ....    Display 3 blank lines
 30     48    ..11 ....    Display 4 blank lines
 40     64    .1.. ....    Display 5 blank lines
 50     80    .1.1 ....    Display 6 blank lines
 60     96    .11. ....    Display 7 blank lines
 70    112    .111 ....    Display 8 blank lines



Display Text or Graphics

      7   6   5   4   3   2   1   0   <--- Bit Number
    +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
    | I   M   H   V | n   n   n   n | <--- Instruction Byte
    +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
          \_______/   \___________/
              |             |
              |             +---- ANTIC Display Mode (2 to 16)
              |
              +----

                           Mode  Scan
Hex    Dec    Binary       Type  Lines  Colors                  BASIC Mode
Instruction
----------------------------------------------------------------------
  2      2    .... ..1.    Text    8     1.5              Display Text ANTIC
mode as GRAPHICS 0 text mode
  3      3    .... ..11    Text                           Display Text as
special text mode
  4      4    .... .1..    Text                           Display Text as
4-color text mode
  5      5    .... .1.1    Text                           Display Text as
large 4-color text mode
  6      6    .... .11.    Text                           Display as
GRAPHICS 1 text mode
  7      7    .... .111    Text                          Display as GRAPHICS
2 text mode
  8      8    .... 1...    Display as GRAPHICS 3 4-color graphic mode
  9      9    .... 1..1    Display as GRAPHICS 4 2-color graphic mode
  A     10    .... 1.1.    Display as GRAPHICS 5 4-color graphic mode
  B     11    .... 1.11    Display as GRAPHICS 6 2-color grpahic mode
  C     12    .... 11..    Display as special 160x20, 2-color graphic mode
  D     13    .... 11.1    Display as GRAPHICS 7 4-color graphic mode
  E     14    .... 111.    Display as special 160x40, 4-color graphic mode
  F     15    .... 1111    Display as GRAPHICS 8, 1 1/2 color graphic mode


  1     1   .... ...1  Jump to location specified by next two bytes
 41    65   ...1 ...1  Jump to location specified by next two bytes and wait
for vertical blank

Four more instructions can be included by setting 1 of 4 bits in the
instruction code to a 1.  These are:

Bit  Instruction
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 4          ...1 ....  Enable fine vertical scrolling
 5          ..1. ....  Enable fine horizontal scrolling
 6          .1.. ....  Load memory scan from next two bytes
 7          1... ....  Set a display list interrupt for the next line



From george at racsys.rt.rain.com  Fri Dec 11 19:12:43 1998
From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Annual troll for Ohio Scientific
In-Reply-To: <000001be2568$2ff27d40$3af438cb@a.davie>
Message-ID: 

Has anyone moved the OSI software to CD from Cassette yet?

George

=========================================================
George L. Rachor		george@racsys.rt.rain.com
Beaverton, Oregon               http://racsys.rt.rain.com
                                KD7DCX

On Sat, 12 Dec 1998, Andrew Davie wrote:

> I have a nice homebrew C1 superboard setup, with wooden sides and a sheet
> metal case.  User has added a "break" switch, baud rate toggle switch,
> 1Mhz/2Mhz switch, some other doodads.  That's what the OSI machines were all
> about :)  I've also got a manual or two lying around.
> Also I have a bareboard superboard which has had all chips removed, so it's
> obviously dead dead.
> My friend has an original, almost pristine, C1P disk system which he'll
> never part with.  He has lots of software, too.
> I know of a C1P system, boxed, for sale at around US$1000 - out of my
> league, I'm afraid.
> A
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu
> > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of SUPRDAVE@aol.com
> > Sent: Saturday, December 12, 1998 9:07 AM
> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> > Subject: Re: Annual troll for Ohio Scientific
> >
> >
> > I have a C1P with a complete set of documentation and presale material
> > including schematics. i believe i also have a bare disk
> > controller board, but
> > i dont know for sure. i might need some of my parts identified.
> >
> > david
> >
> > In a message dated 12/11/98 11:15:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> > george@racsys.rt.rain.com writes:
> >
> > << It has been at least 6 months so maybe it is time again.
> >
> >  I'm always looking for OSI hardware.  I am specifically looking
> > for C4 and
> >  C8 machines and/or Floppy drives for such critters.
> >
> >  Perhaps we could create an inventory list among us and see if we might be
> >  able to mix/match to build more complete systems.
> >
> >  I'll start:
> >
> >  I have the following:
> >
> >  C2-4p Empty case
> >  C4p   Comes up with 256 Bytes of RAM >>
> >
> 
> 



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Fri Dec 11 21:33:05 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Help!  PS 2 model P70
In-Reply-To: <36719710.ACDCA09F@bigfoot.com>
References: <3.0.1.16.19981210101738.301fd946@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981211213305.308f9e3a@intellistar.net>

Russ,

  Thanks for the help but you're too slow, I already figured it out. The
two MCA cards that I posted on the mailing list last night came out of the
P70. I found a GOOD site at "ftp.pc.ibm.com/pub/pccbbs/refdisks".  It has
EVERTHING there!  The regular IBM tech support website is a joke.  BTW I
got the complete sales information from IBM on disks too. Let me know if
you want a copy of it. Which model P70s do you have? I have a 121 (386DX-20
8 meg RAM 170 Mb ESDI hard drive).  How do you like the CPU upgrade?  I'm
considering doing that to this one but I'm not sure if I'm going to keep
this yet.  Any idea where I can get the cable for the external storage
device? (#2716 P/N 23F2716).

   Joe

At 04:05 PM 12/11/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Joe wrote:
>
>>   I have a P70 that won't boot. It displays error numbers 167 and 163. Does
>> anyone know anything about these?
>
>As said before, you need the setup disk, known as a "reference disk" as these
>are commonly acquanted with a dead battery causing the settings to go
away. The
>single best source for info and file links for the entire PS/2 line is at
>http://members.tripod.com/~ps2page/ and you can then download the P70
reference
>disk via this page. Note that the machine is not a model 70 (type 8570) but
>rather a P70, (type 8573) so make sure you get the appropriate reference disk
>file. Once you download the EXE image, go to the DOS prompt and path to where
>the download is.Put a blank 1.44 in the floppy drive and then type the file
>name followed by an A: to tell it to run and that you wish to make the
disk on
>A:....An example would be RF8573.EXE A:
>
>Boot the P70 with the disk and it will most likely ask if you wish to run
>auto-config. Yes is a viable option. It may ask you for an additional disk
for
>an adapter installed (there are 2 mca card slots in the P70) so you need
to hit
>ESC until you can figure out what the additional ADF file is that you'll
need.
>I won't go into this unless you hae the problem, so if you do email me direct
>and I can help you there.
>
>Should you need a battery, take the old one out and go to the local Walmart,
>Kmart, etc and look in their photo batteries. These are marked as an IBM
>replacement but are actually a standard photo battery. An IBM "computer"
>battery runs about $18 but the same battery packaged as a photo battery
goes at
>about $10.
>
>If you need a little more help write me direct. I do these all the time and
>know them inside out. I have one that's even been upgraded to a 486DX that I
>gave my wife, and one to the side that's fully there but has a broken
hinge on
>the screen mount.
>
>To open the back cover, should you need to, just undo the three captive
screws.
>One is behind the access door, two on  the bottom. Then lightly pry at the
>handle area of the cover and it will come up and off. If you find you have a
>token ring card in it and you don't have a need for it, pull the card and
then
>you shouldn't have a need for an ADF file for it. Of course you'll need to
>rerun the reference disk.
>
>Russ Blakeman
>
>



From DaveyGF at aol.com  Fri Dec 11 19:24:53 1998
From: DaveyGF at aol.com (DaveyGF@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Looking for group archive
Message-ID: <61f62249.3671c5e5@aol.com>

Kevin's archive is nice, but it is very difficult to search for what you want
(by keyword for instance) on a web based threaded archive as he has set it up.
I just grabbed the archived files from classiccmp's file area.

try

sending a message to: listproc@u.washington.edu
the body should read:
info classiccmp


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 11 17:33:35 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Latest Project: homebrew paper tape reader
In-Reply-To: <19981211135239.90b33492.in@mail.pressstart.com> from "Doug Coward" at Dec 11, 98 02:01:16 pm
Message-ID: 

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From jpero at pop.cgocable.net  Fri Dec 11 14:48:26 1998
From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: FSOT:  3C87SX 25 and 8MB module for LTE 386s/20 or LTE LITE seri
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981210192416.301f5c6a@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <199812120142.UAA04242@mail.cgocable.net>

Title says all.

I would like matched 70ns 4MB true parity 72pin pair for trade or 
some offers for these parts.  The 8MB module I paid over 50 US 
for it when I got it.

I have an original box, still sealed anti-static containing 
motherboard for LTE 386s/20 with -003 bios; supports both 8MB 
modules for grand 16MB instead of puny 10MB.   Paid 75US dollars for 
it last year.  Funny story to this, was looking for 386s/20 board and 
owner sent wrong one!  :-( )

For this board, I'd like one 70ns 16MB non parity SODIMM 36pin 
actually wired like 72 pin,  FPM not SDRAM.   Or (preferred) 
barebones 8590 or 8595 based on DX 33, DX 50 or DX2 66 any of these 
with cache installed might be a problem.  Condition: except for 
add my own ram and HD which I can obtain anywhere else.
Shipping both ways, I pay.

You can combine all of these if you like to because both 387SX and 
memory module came out of my running LTE 386s/20 that I recently 
retired from working status; worn out, dark end on lamp tube and bad 
keyboard was last straw so I had to shove it into retirement.
email: jpero@cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.


From ss at allegro.com  Fri Dec 11 19:52:14 1998
From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Feeding frenzy for SOL
In-Reply-To: <000901be2536$fe613e00$78f7fea9@mycroft>
Message-ID: 

Re:
 
> (Shall we have a private ClassicCmp eBay.com auction and see who 
> will bid the highest?

Hmmm...post something like "ham sandwhich", which we agree
means the Sol?  :)

Maybe that explains some of the really odd things I've
seen on ebay!

Stan Sieler
sieler@allegro.com




From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 11 19:50:05 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Just bought this . . .
In-Reply-To:  from "Don Maslin" at Dec 11, 98 04:02:36 pm
Message-ID: 

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From gram at cnct.com  Fri Dec 11 20:24:36 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Oral History Questions
References: <19981211145621.90ed8b5f.in@mail.pressstart.com>
Message-ID: <3671D3E4.F5001E9C@cnct.com>

Doug Coward wrote:
> 
> Uncle Roger  said:
> >I have a chance to speak with the designers of some of the machines in my
> >collection.  But other than the basic "when was it intro'd, what are the
> >specs, what did it cost" stuff, what should I ask?
> 
> My two favorite questions would be:
> Do you know who currently owns the rights to the software and
>     documentation for XYZ computer?
> And to the owner of those rights:
> Have you ever considered releasing the rights to the public domain?

Public domain is too big a step for many corporate types to deal
with.  Unrestricted distribution for personal use fits the bill
quite adequately while preserving copyright.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From allisonp at world.std.com  Fri Dec 11 20:31:55 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Oral History Questions
Message-ID: <199812120231.AA10161@world.std.com>

< I can't imagine any sensible reason for making them default to edge-sens
< the 8259 is very flexible and can be configured either way.  I can only
< surmise that they had no clue and decided by flipping coins or throwing
< darts.

Sounds about right.  Sharing can be done but the drivers have to have a 
local pull down and be logically open collector(or emitter).  Of course 
you can reprogram the 8259a too.

Allison



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Fri Dec 11 20:38:57 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19981211002710.75a79e8a@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: 

>The actual demo had taken place 30 years ago in 1968, and the star of the
>demo was Doug Englebart.
>
>Think about your first reaction to what sounds like whiteboarding software
>that is starting to become commonplace.  Now consider that the demo was
>filmed 30 years ago in *black and white*!  That's how far ahead Englebart
>and his team really were (or, how far we *haven't* come when we should have!)

You know my reaction to this is a really sad commentary on the computer
industry today.  My first thought was, "Hmm, someone should be able to use
this as an example of 'prior art' in defeating a software patent or two".

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From foxnhare at goldrush.com  Fri Dec 11 20:50:59 1998
From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
References: <199812110802.AAA02784@lists5.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <3671DA12.3C37364E@goldrush.com>

> From: "Hans Franke" 
> Subject: Re: "Single instance" machines

> > ::Actually, the VIC-20's seem to be fairly hard to get now days.
> 
> > Not that difficult. They appear on eBay from time to time and a place around
> > here has a few refurbished models in stock. They *do* seem to inspire more
> > loyalty to them than the 64 did, though, for some inexplicable reason.
> 
> Don't forget: the V(I)C-20 was a bit faster and a way better
> design then the C64.

Way better?  I would say simpler, the 64 was more complex in design but was
par woith the machines of the time (Atari and Apple) where the VIC-20 was
lagging at that point.  And you guys mention graphics which were good, but it
took YEARS for anyone to match the 64 in the sound depertment (first the Amiga
then later the Soundblaster - was about to say IBM, but the big computer co.s
had nothing to do with quality sound development on that platform.)

Though it is sure easy to read that 22x23 character screen!  I did with a
VIC-20 and a datasette for a year, it sure teaches one to code tight.

In reference to the memory question some VIC/VC REUs went to 24k (like the MSD
one I have here), but there was also the Aprotek RAM expander/cartridge
expander which filled every gap, all the contiguous memory (including the 3k
portion in lower RAM) as well as the upper 8K Game ROM space. 32k?  I think
they gave it a bigger number, maybe by adding the 5k and the ROMS to the
'total memory', regardless, the Aprotek one was the ultimate in VIC-20 expanders...

> And by the way, to catch up with the title - is there any
> other Commodore B500 around, or a Pascal Microengine ?

I hear of more of the P/B500 in europe then here, actually in the U.S. I think
there are maybe three or so around, since they never were oficially released
past the late prototype stage (due to one of Commodore's run-ins with the
FCC).  Dunno how many (if any) they sold in europe.

00101110010101100101011001000110

> From: jeff.kaneko@juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko)
> Subject: Re: "Single instance" machines
> 
> That's the story I heard.
> The original name Commodore chose for the VIC was 'Vixen'.

Before that the 'color computer' Commodore was developing was referred to as
the TOI.  I have read in one place that the TOI unit used a different video
chip (recommended by Peddle?), but it could just be a rumor.  I recall my
first seeing the TOI article in a Cursor tape newsletter (paper portion),
anyone got that issue?


From ddameron at earthlink.net  Fri Dec 11 20:57:52 1998
From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Dr. Dobbs..
Message-ID: <199812120257.SAA00199@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

At 10:22 PM 12/9/98 -0800, Sam wrote:

>Never heard of either "Computer Hobbyist" or "Amateur Computer Society"
>but I'd love to trade copies of those for copies of what I have.
>
>Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Always being hassled by the man.
>
>                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
>                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
>                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]
>
The "Amateur Computer Society" was started in 1966 and ran to the early/mid
1970's? It was done in Conn. by a Stephen Gray.

Here is a summary of the 10 "Computer Hobbyist" issues. It was started in
Nov. 1974 by Hal Chamberlin and others in Cary, NC.

Issue 1, Nov 1974:
A graphics display for the 8008. (Vector graphics, overview)

A modified version was printed later in BYTE by Steve Ciarcia, still using a
8008 system as a refresh controller for his main system, Digital Group?

Issue 2, Dec. 1974
Graphics display, part 2: hardware.
The 8080 is here.
(The issue was written on an 8008 system with a floppy disk)

Issue 3, Jan 1975
Graphics display, part 3: deflection hardware, CRT's. Displays include
musical notes, schematics, a chess board + sw routine.

No. 4, Feb 1975
Subscriber's survey (hardware)
Human interface for graphics display.
8008 vs 8080 vs IMP-16.

No. 5, March/April 1975
Audio cassette data recording, part 1, description, schematic.
Computer snowflake display (Uses 32 bit shift register random number gen).

No. 6, May, 1975
Audio cassette standard, part 2, parts, pc board.
Add a data stack to your 8008 (Also in BYTE Mag.)

No. 7
Audio cassette software, CRC routines , etc.
Computer ping-pong.

No. 8
Interfacing the Altair 8800 bus.

No. 9, Feb. 1976
Simple floppy disk interface, formats, description.
IMP-16 microcomputer system.
Interfacing the Altair, part 2.

No. 10, August, 1976
Floppy disk interface, part 2.
Pictures from first Trenton Computerfest

(Part 3 of the floppy interface = software was going to be next...)
-Dave





From kyrrin at my-dejanews.com  Fri Dec 11 21:20:49 1998
From: kyrrin at my-dejanews.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: FW: Problems with a PDP-11/04
In-Reply-To: <74qh8b$vl3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
References: <74qh8b$vl3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Message-ID: <3671e0e2.2283883550@smtp.jps.net>

	Could someone a little smarter on 11/04's than I am please give this
fellow a hand?

	Thanks in advance.

-=-=-  -=-=-

On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 07:22:51 GMT, in alt.sys.pdp11 you wrote:

>>From: hamster@telnet.hu
>>Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11
>>Subject: Problems with a PDP-11/04
>>Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 07:22:51 GMT
>>Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
>>Lines: 54
>>Message-ID: <74qh8b$vl3$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
>>NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.149.0.154
>>X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Dec 11 07:22:51 1998 GMT
>>X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.04Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i586)
>>X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 proxy.datanet.hu:3128 (Squid/1.1.22), 1.0 x14.dejanews.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 195.56.133.225, 194.149.0.154
>>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.pbi.net!151.142.220.3!WCG!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail
>>
>>I post this message for the second time, as I haven't seen the first try
>>in any of the groups I posted it to... :-(
>>
>>I acquired a PDP11/04 last week. It's my first UNIBUS -11, so I don't
>>really know how to get it working again...
>>The machine is in a BA-11KA drawer (rev m, eco 0015; the whole machine
>>was labeled "LANDIS & GYR VISIONIX 4000). It has two DD-11DK system
>>units (only the first is used), with the following cards in it:
>>M7263, 2 x M7856, 32K core, M9312, M7262, M9302, G727A. I know what these
>>cards are, my problem is that I don't know this backplane enough, and I
>>don't know what to expect from the system. After I
>>got the machine, I cleaned it, examined the cards for anything strange -
>>haven't found anything. Then I put back the cards, in the order they were
>>originally (there were stickers on the side of the chassis showing the
>>modules' places). One of the DL11W's is configured as the console (at the
>>proper address; also at 110 baud, 5 data bits, odd parity, 2 stop bits,
>>active current lopp Rx, passive Tx), it has a BC05C-25 cable leading
>>out of the chassis. I checked with a multimeter (I haven't got a scope,
>>and even if I'd have, I'm not familiar with it), there's _something_
>>on the DB25F connector. Right now I have two choices: to get the DL11W
>>working with an EIA-interfaced CRT terminal) to see if the CPU is working,
>>or check this some different way (without a scope that is; am I beeing
>>impatient?:) The machine has the simple "frontpanel": OFF/ON/STDBY,
>>RUN/HALT, BOOT/INIT switches, RUN and DCOK LED.
>>So my questions:
>>
>>1. what are the settings for a EIA console on a DL11W? I've tried to set
>>9600, 8N1 according the manuals, but I don't know what to do next, about
>>the current loop interface, about the cable (nullmodem? straight? with
>>modem control?), as I still have nothing on the VT (and I know that this
>>could be my fault...)
>>
>>2. How do I know if the CPU is really running? (the DCOK LED is on, and if
>>I switch "RUN", the RUN LED lights up, but does this really reflects the
>>state of the CPU and the bus? There's the RL controller on the bus, when
>>the drives are connected to it, and are switched on, the RL01's "FAULT"
>>light turn off (I was told the drives need timing signals from the
>>controller; they get it as I interpret this behaviour), but that's about
>>everything I know from the cards in the chassis. Is there a safe method to
>>see if the bus is okay, like pulling out cards and/or moving them around?
>>I don't want to mess something up with all these modified/SPC slots...
>>
>>Thanks for your time!
>>
>>  /   ___ _  _ ___ ____ ___ ___
>> /__//__///_///__   /  /_   /  )  Varga Akos Endre   hamster@telnet.hu
>>/  //  //   /___/  /  /__  /  (    www.telnet.hu/hamster/english.html
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> "Museum"             http://www.internetto.hu/muzeum/e_kiallitas.html
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>>http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own    

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho,
Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com
Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com
"...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object,
event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..."


From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au  Fri Dec 11 21:21:27 1998
From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Help needed with a PDP-11
Message-ID: <003001be257e$8deed860$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>


I found this plea in comp.sys.dec, he seems to have had no response, so I
thought I'd throw it in for the experts here.  If anyone can help him,
please contact
this guy direct.

Quote:

I acquired a PDP11/04 last week. It's my first UNIBUS -11, so I don't
really know how to get it working again...
The machine is in a BA-11KA drawer (rev m, eco 0015; the whole machine
was labeled "LANDIS & GYR VISIONIX 4000). It has two DD-11DK system
units (only the first is used), with the following cards in it:
M7263, 2 x M7856, 32K core, M9312, M7262, M9302, G727A. I know what these
cards are, my problem is that I don't know this backplane enough, and I
don't know what to expect from the system. After I
got the machine, I cleaned it, examined the cards for anything strange -
haven't found anything. Then I put back the cards, in the order they were
originally (there were stickers on the side of the chassis showing the
modules' places). One of the DL11W's is configured as the console (at the
proper address; also at 110 baud, 5 data bits, odd parity, 2 stop bits,
active current lopp Rx, passive Tx), it has a BC05C-25 cable leading
out of the chassis. I checked with a multimeter (I haven't got a scope,
and even if I'd have, I'm not familiar with it), there's _something_
on the DB25F connector. Right now I have two choices: to get the DL11W
working with an EIA-interfaced CRT terminal) to see if the CPU is working,
or check this some different way (without a scope that is; am I beeing
impatient?:) The machine has the simple "frontpanel": OFF/ON/STDBY,
RUN/HALT, BOOT/INIT switches, RUN and DCOK LED.
So my questions:

1. what are the settings for a EIA console on a DL11W? I've tried to set
9600, 8N1 according the manuals, but I don't know what to do next, about
the current loop interface, about the cable (nullmodem? straight? with
modem control?), as I still have nothing on the VT (and I know that this
could be my fault...)

2. How do I know if the CPU is really running? (the DCOK LED is on, and if
I switch "RUN", the RUN LED lights up, but does this really reflects the
state of the CPU and the bus? There's the RL controller on the bus, when
the drives are connected to it, and are switched on, the RL01's "FAULT"
light turn off (I was told the drives need timing signals from the
controller; they get it as I interpret this behaviour), but that's about
everything I know from the cards in the chassis. Is there a safe method to
see if the bus is okay, like pulling out cards and/or moving them around?
I don't want to mess something up with all these modified/SPC slots...

Thanks for your time!

  /   ___ _  _ ___ ____ ___ ___
/__//__///_///__   /  /_   /  )  Varga Akos Endre   hamster@telnet.hu
/  //  //   /___/  /  /__  /  (    www.telnet.hu/hamster/english.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Museum"             http://www.internetto.hu/muzeum/e_kiallitas.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

End Quote.

Geoff Roberts
Computer Systems Manager
Saint Marks College
Port Pirie  South Australia.
My ICQ# is 1970476
Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile)
      61-8-8633-0619 (Home)
      61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct)
      61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)



From scott at saskatoon.com  Fri Dec 11 22:21:30 1998
From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model III Parts/Advice (fwd)
Message-ID: 

Can anyone help this guy out?  Please respond directly to him.

ttfn
srw

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 23:12:09 -0500
From: LABOMBARD@PSFC.MIT.EDU
To: SCOTT@SASKATOON.COM
Cc: LABOMBARD@PSFC.MIT.EDU
Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model III Parts/Advice

Dear Scott,

	I found your web site and thought you might
have some advice on how I could keep an antique computer 
operational.

	Believe it or not, my Dad has a TRS80 Model III that he 
still uses! I programmed it back in the 80s to compute and plot out
(using a home-made "polar" plotter) mechanical cam profiles for
old automatic screw machines. Now my Dad is retired but he still 
dabbles as a consultant in setting up old screw machinery and running 
the TRS80 Model III to generate cam profiles.

	The software package on the TRS80 is extremely large and 
customized (with basic and Z80 instructions "poking "and "peeking" 
here there and everywhere) so we never felt it was worth the effort 
of converting it to a newer machine. Also, the "polar plotter" works 
fine and to generate the equivalent output on a modern printer would 
be easy for the hardware but a nightmare for converting the software. 
Rather, I have just kept the hardware operational to run the dedicated
programs.

	This strategy has worked well for a very long time. But now 
there is a serious problem - the keyboard is getting worn out to the 
point where some of the keys refuse to work! So this brings me to ask 
you a question: Do you know where I could find another TRS80 Model III 
as a parts computer or a keyboard PC board for the same?  I might be 
able to unsolder and fix/replace the keys themselves on the PC board 
but then again this action may lead to irreversible damage.

	I would appreciate any comments on this.

Thanks,

Brian

___________________________________________
Brian LaBombard    LABOMBARD@PSFC.MIT.EDU
MIT Plasma Science and Fusion Center
175 Albany St
Cambridge, MA 02139
(617) 253-6942  TEL
(617) 253-0627  FAX



From erd at infinet.com  Fri Dec 11 22:19:07 1998
From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Mac IIci cache cards
In-Reply-To: <12D31BD1.2547FFDC@geocities.com> from "Eric" at Jan 4, 80 03:11:45 am
Message-ID: <199812120419.XAA01239@user2.infinet.com>

> 
> have a pile of mac IIci cache cards, if interested email. have no use
> for them.
> 
> -Eric

I might be interested.  How much for one?  How much for three?  

Thanks,

-ethan


From zmerch at 30below.com  Fri Dec 11 22:42:02 1998
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: HX20 (was: Re: Just bought this . . .)
In-Reply-To: <3670986C.DC464829@cnct.com>
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981211234202.00916c10@mail.30below.com>

Once upon a midnight dreary, Ward Donald Griffiths III had spoken clearly:

>Almost especially in medical technology like in the example given.
>My wife (the nurse) specialised in home care of {para|quadra}plegics
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You mean you have more than one?????  ;^>  ;^>

>Of course, the kids
>with fresh education and materials have priority over those who've
>actually helped people.  Most of those kids should be kneecapped and
>encouraged to swim the Pacific.

Nah, the water's not salty enough, and I've seen people swim with only
their arms..... Unless, of course, they've been kneecapped at the neck.

Personally, I've not seen a setup that could easily take the place of that
HX-20... to try to "upgrade" that poor man would be one of the dumbest
things....  Hell, I can't even *think* about that. 

"Merch"


From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Fri Dec 11 23:06:10 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Help!  PS 2 model P70
References: <3.0.1.16.19981210101738.301fd946@intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.19981211213305.308f9e3a@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <3671F9C1.2DB2DAF8@bigfoot.com>

Joe wrote:

> Russ,
>
>   Thanks for the help but you're too slow, I already figured it out. The
> two MCA cards that I posted on the mailing list last night came out of the
> P70. I found a GOOD site at "ftp.pc.ibm.com/pub/pccbbs/refdisks".  It has
> EVERTHING there!  The regular IBM tech support website is a joke.  BTW I
> got the complete sales information from IBM on disks too. Let me know if
> you want a copy of it. Which model P70s do you have? I have a 121 (386DX-20
> 8 meg RAM 170 Mb ESDI hard drive).  How do you like the CPU upgrade?  I'm
> considering doing that to this one but I'm not sure if I'm going to keep
> this yet.  Any idea where I can get the cable for the external storage
> device? (#2716 P/N 23F2716).

Nope, never seen one either although it does seem to look a lot like an SCSI
adapter for an Apple/Mac. My wife loves the MakeIt 486 and Windows 95 on the
machine with a 120mb drive, doubled. No speed problem either but it will improve
with the addition of a ram card, just no time at present to mess with it. I've had
every version except the odd 486 version through here and sold all but the one my
wife has, and is very attached to. I take that back, I have one that needs the
screen prackets repired or replaced at the top but is great otherwise, I think
it's a 121 with a 60 or 80 mb drive. I need to sell it but might have a buyer that
gets to fix the brackets himself.

When you install a MakeIt 486, make sure you have the 387 coprocessor installed or
it shows a 486SX instead a  DX since the FPU isn't there.



From rexstout at uswest.net  Fri Dec 11 23:29:48 1998
From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Laser 128
In-Reply-To: <000e01be24d8$9d660f80$c4b6adce@amdk6-2>
Message-ID: 

>I am in need of a power cord for a Laser 128
>from 1985.If anyone can help please let me know.

Try an Apple IIc power supply if you can find one, the L128 is a clone of
that. I had one a while back, got it at a hamfest with two power
supplies(Apple & VTech) and a bunch of other Apple II stuff. The Apple PS
didn't work with it, I'm not sure if it's just incompatible or maybe the PS
is bad, but they looked the same. The Laser 128 isn't a bad computer, but
that keyboard is enough to drive me insane...

--------------------------------------------------------------
| http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers |
| http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek     |
|   orham@qth.net   list admin                KD7BCY         |
|   ham-mac@qth.net                        Portland, OR      |
--------------------------------------------------------------




From pctech at davidbowie.com  Fri Dec 11 23:30:40 1998
From: pctech at davidbowie.com (Brian Giacoletti)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Laser 128
Message-ID: <000601be2590$93382080$5bb6adce@amdk6-2>

Thanks for the info i will try that.
-----Original Message-----
From: John Rollins 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Friday, December 11, 1998 9:31 PM
Subject: Re: Laser 128


>>I am in need of a power cord for a Laser 128
>>from 1985.If anyone can help please let me know.
>
>Try an Apple IIc power supply if you can find one, the L128 is a clone of
>that. I had one a while back, got it at a hamfest with two power
>supplies(Apple & VTech) and a bunch of other Apple II stuff. The Apple PS
>didn't work with it, I'm not sure if it's just incompatible or maybe the PS
>is bad, but they looked the same. The Laser 128 isn't a bad computer, but
>that keyboard is enough to drive me insane...
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>| http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers |
>| http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek     |
>|   orham@qth.net   list admin                KD7BCY         |
>|   ham-mac@qth.net                        Portland, OR      |
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>
>



From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Fri Dec 11 23:46:50 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Laser 128
Message-ID: 

the keyboard on the laser is terrible! not much better than an atari 400. i've
got two, one with a bad keybounce problem. anyone know of a way to fix it?

In a message dated 12/12/98 0:32:41 AM EST, rexstout@uswest.net writes:

<< Try an Apple IIc power supply if you can find one, the L128 is a clone of
 that. I had one a while back, got it at a hamfest with two power
 supplies(Apple & VTech) and a bunch of other Apple II stuff. The Apple PS
 didn't work with it, I'm not sure if it's just incompatible or maybe the PS
 is bad, but they looked the same. The Laser 128 isn't a bad computer, but
 that keyboard is enough to drive me insane... >>


From simon at nenevr.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 11 17:43:10 1998
From: simon at nenevr.demon.co.uk (Simon Coombs)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:

> > What I *do* have, though, is a Transdata Cx500. 2xDSDD 8", 64mb ram, Z80 
> > CPU with a second Z80 on the floppy controller board doing who knows 
> > what. I have yet to meet anyone else who has even *heard* of a Transdata 
> > computer. [1]
> 
> Now, the name 'transdata' seems familiar for some reason. Did they make 
> Prestel sets at some point as well?

I can safely say I have *no* idea! :) I have a bit of Transdata headed 
paper, which mentions their supplying "Data Terminals And Microcomputer 
Systems", so it's possible. You're not thinking of Tandata though, are you?

> > Was the Philips P850 the machine with 8" hard sectored disks? If so, I've 
> > got some spare for any interested parties in the UK. [2]
> 
> Not AFAIK. It's a minicomputer (it says so on the panel) with 2K of core 
> (maximum!). Standard I/O was a teletype and possibly a 'high speed' paper 
> tape punch and reader.
> 
> I can find no mention of a disk of any kind for it. There were SMD 
> interfaces for its larger brothers, and maybe a 8" floppy system, but 
> nothing for the P850.

Sounds like it's probably a tad earlier than the machine I was thinking 
about! Does it still live?

> > [1] I believe they might have made terminals and paper-tape stuff too...
> 
> You're not confusing them with Trend Data are you? They certainly made 
> terminals, paper tape units (very nice ones) and comms stuff

It may be a case of mistaken identity, I suppose. I'm not even sure what 
else they manufactured! As I said earlier, I know they were into Data 
Terminals and Micro's... 

Simon.

--
Simon Coombs                                simon@nenevr.demon.co.uk
Don't stand on ceremony; just bow low.      CP/M - The once and future O/S!



From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca  Sat Dec 12 05:43:21 1998
From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: Dr. Dobbs..
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981208135746.00b77a60@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Chuck McManis wrote:

> Dale Luck has PCC newspaper vol1 number 1. It was a hoot to read through!

Oooh, name dropping!

"Brought to you by not a mere Wizard, but the Wizard Extraordinaire: Dale
Luck!"

Who here knows where that quote comes from? :)

> --Chuck

-- 
Doug Spence
ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca
http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/



From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Sat Dec 12 05:39:17 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <000501be25c4$0cbd41a0$a3f438cb@a.davie>

> > > What I *do* have, though, is a Transdata Cx500. 2xDSDD 8",
> 64mb ram, Z80
> > > CPU with a second Z80 on the floppy controller board doing who knows
> > > what. I have yet to meet anyone else who has even *heard* of
> a Transdata
> > > computer. [1]



MMmmmh.... sent me to the cupboards, but my machine turns out to be a
Tandata TD1600 :)
Probably one that few others have, anyway.

Cheers
A



From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au  Sat Dec 12 07:45:36 1998
From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: HP Cards - ID?
Message-ID: <001701be25d5$b37c92a0$2a3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au>

I have found a bunch of very pretty HP cards that I would like to ID.
They are about 12 inches long and 4 inches high with edge connectors just
off the middle with 22 connectors per side. Most have these on top and
bottom.
All have 02640 in the numbers somewhere.

Examples of the full numbering are:

HP 42L  02640-60256  A-212-42  8080 Processor 665494. 42-2230  4242-3896  97
of 175 (Has no 8080, only an 8048)

HP 42F  02640-60065  E-1914-42  665983   Memory 4K.  42-2230  4241-7975  119
of 250  (Has 8 X National Semiconductor MM5280J memory chips)

When I say pretty, I mean lots of gold circuits very aesthetically laid out.

Hans Olminkhof



From jrkeys at concentric.net  Fri Dec 11 21:53:11 1998
From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: A few notes
Message-ID: <000101be2582$efe6a940$daafadce@5x86jk>

Just a couple of things, first I got a great book for collectors by Stan
Veit called Stan Veit's History of The Personal Computer full of stories and
lots of pictures.  I got it off eBay for $3 and it's brand new, the guy had
1000 of them and only asked for $3 his email is ralph@abooks.com I highly
recommend this book for your collections'.  Second I got over 160 new items
in the last few weeks for my collection and one of the more interesting
items was a Sony SMC-70 that is silver in color and has a black metal
monitor stand mounted to it that is adjustable, has ver 10 ports on it for
hooking all sorts of items like light pen and key pads.  It has a RS232
Interface unit mounted on the rear of it. This unit and a CPT6100 complete
with all manuals and software and a printer were given to me for free.
People have started telling others about me collecting and get 1 or 2 calls
every two weeks for these to pickup for free and very little cost. I know I
said 2 comments but it's been awhile since I have shared my finds with
everyone so here is one more, a Tektronix unit taken from a rack system with
a type RM564 Storage Oscilloscope a type 2B67 Time Base and type 2A60
Amplifier all in one unit for $5. Once I finish my web page you will be able
to see a complete list of my collection.  Keep Computing  John



From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Sat Dec 12 10:15:01 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <3671DA12.3C37364E@goldrush.com> from "Larry Anderson" at Dec 11, 98 06:50:59 pm
Message-ID: <199812121615.IAA23196@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From cube at msn.fullfeed.com  Sat Dec 12 10:14:09 1998
From: cube at msn.fullfeed.com (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: DecSystem 5400 with RA90s and TK70 Available
In-Reply-To: <003001be257e$8deed860$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic
 .edu.au>
Message-ID: <199812121620.KAA15188@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com>

While I was at the regular weekly UW (Wisconsin) Friday surplus sale
yesterday picking up an Intergraph Clipper system for my collection (
working 8-) ), I noticed a DecSystem 5400 with 2 RA90 disk drives and a
TK70 tape drive is available out there for $20, including a short rack.
The system looks very very clean, physically.  I have no room for it.

It is not a MicroVAX, but is instead a RISC system, presumably using a MIPS
RISC processor.

The folks over there told me they are having a big sale December 29th, so
if you want it, you should probably grab it no later than that.  They are
open every Friday AM from 8AM to 2PM, IIRC.

They also have an old ACC System 370 channel interface Ethernet controller,
for you mainframe collectors.  8-)

Jay


---	
Jay R. Jaeger					The Computer Collection
Jay.Jaeger@msn.fullfeed.com	visit http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~cube


From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Sat Dec 12 10:29:15 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: tektronics 503 scope
Message-ID: 

ok, so its not a classic computer but there was a discussion a while back
about ocilloscopes and i happened upon a model 503 at a thift store for $80.
is it worth getting? presumably it works but i have no idea how one would test
it, much less use it. 

david


From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com  Sat Dec 12 11:00:17 1998
From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:09 2005
Subject: tektronics 503 scope
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981212090017.009706b0@mail.bluefeathertech.com>

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From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com  Sat Dec 12 11:01:51 1998
From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: HP Cards - ID?
In-Reply-To: <001701be25d5$b37c92a0$2a3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981212090151.00967770@mail.bluefeathertech.com>

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From jpl15 at netcom.com  Sat Dec 12 11:24:20 1998
From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: tektronics 503 scope
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 




On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote:

> ok, so its not a classic computer but there was a discussion a while back
> about ocilloscopes and i happened upon a model 503 at a thift store for $80.
> is it worth getting? presumably it works but i have no idea how one would test
> it, much less use it. 
> 
> david
> 

  Hey Dave...  go back up the list a few posts and read John R. 
Keyes' message entitled "A few notes..."  He has obtained a Really
Nice Tek scope for a good price..  perhaps you can work up a deal
with him. 

  $80 for a ancient 503 is absurd. That model is 50's vintage and 
very limited bandwidth...  and wouldn't even be fun to learn on, 
because I don't think you could keep it on the air reliably.

  Also: I see many older Heathkit and Eico and RCA oscilloscopes and 
ham swapmeets... in the $5 range... one of those would be killer for 
you since it doesn'y take up the bench space like a big Tek does.

  Anyone who is getting into exploring and restoring digital stuff 
at the hardware  level should try and get a nice scope... it really 
opens up one's capabilities to keep vintage gear running.

  The one John Keyes mentions has different plug-in modules available
that change it's modes of operation, including 8-channel inputs, just
the thing for watching old computer busses. 

  Plus the learning experience would be interesting with an 
oscilloscope of that complexity.

  And anyone wishing to get more info on scopes and how to use them 
is welcome to e-mail me...  I will try to help.


  Cheers...  and Best of the Season

 John


From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com  Sat Dec 12 11:35:28 1998
From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Info needed: Old video card
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981212093528.00967770@mail.bluefeathertech.com>

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From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Sat Dec 12 11:55:17 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: tektronics 503 scope
References: 
Message-ID: <3672AE04.852C3F47@bigfoot.com>

I assume it's a tube model, probably early 60's? There's a Tek colector's site at
http://margo.student.utwente.nl/~wel/tek.htm you might want to take a look at.
Many of the scopes have a 1v cal point that you can hook channel A's probe to and
then use it as a clean source of 1v signal (square wave) to see if the scope is
still in limits. That's assuming you have even the slightest knowledge of using
one.

$80 for a working classic scope is fair, dependant upon condition You might even
turn a buck on it with a collector. Check the info and the scope itself before you
buy it though. There's a person on the classifieds looking for a manul that has a
503 that might be of help, email address is  mailto: pattilsg@hotmail.com

SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote:

> ok, so its not a classic computer but there was a discussion a while back
> about ocilloscopes and i happened upon a model 503 at a thift store for $80.
> is it worth getting? presumably it works but i have no idea how one would test
> it, much less use it.
>
> david



From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Sat Dec 12 12:23:51 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: epson hx-20 problems
Message-ID: 

my little hx20 is doing strange things, perhaps someone can help. 
when i power up i get two beeps, then the lcd shows:

ctrl/@ initialize
1 monitor
2 pcn
3 ok
  

and choices 4-6 show nonsense characters. choosing any choice drops me to a
register dump and the word  TRAP!   hitting the menu key gives me the initial
bootup choices listed above. i noticed there was two access doors underneath
which i opened all push down all all the socketed chips but no improvement. i
hit the reset b utton and that does nothing. at least the printer paper feed
works! any ideas? should i disconnect the expansion unit? 

david


From tomowad at earthlink.net  Sat Dec 12 12:27:47 1998
From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Mainframes at Junk Yard
Message-ID: <199812121827.KAA10336@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

I was at Coleman's Surplus in Millersburg, PA, today.  The place turned 
out to be little more than a junk yard, but I did stumble across some 
interesting mainframes.  They units were literally dumped in a pile, all 
twisted and broken, most unidentifiable (to me, anyway).

Two of the mainframes, though, looked like they'd be possilbe to salvage, 
if somebody was _really_ interested in them.  They're listed below, along 
with some questions.

The Gould/Concept:

All one piece, but with two doors (like a refrigerator).  The top reads 
"Gould 32/27", the bottom "Concept /32".  I've no idea what this is.  
Anybody?  Interestingly, the top was full of DEC cards (looked like the 
one's for my VAX), most of which have their connectors broken off.

The Sperry Univac:

This one's bigger that a refrigerator, with a reel unit (which is nearly 
as big) attached to it.  There wasn't any model number on the front panel 
that I could see.  This is a Unix system, I'm guessing?

The Kodak Automated Disk Library:

I was running out of time, so I didn't look very closely at this, though 
it appears interesting.  Mounted in the rack that ended up on the very 
top of the pile, it's not very big, and doesn't really look all that beat 
up.  It appeared to be some sort of tape reader.  Has anybody heard of 
this?

Not salvageable:

Several Vax 11/780's - appeared to be stripped of cards, but power 
supplies easy to get at.
2 Wang Units - didn't look too interesting to me, and they were hard to 
get at.
"Harris" front panel - so I'm assuming the rest of it is there somewhere 
nearby.
Digitech Encoder - this thing was really neat looking - pity its smashed. 
 It remined me of the Commodore SX64 in appearance.  It has a small 
monitor on the right hand side, a 5.25" floppy on the lower left, and a 
bunch of lights in the upper left.  Can anybody tell me what it is?
Several Deckwriter III's - easily accessable, but in very poor condition.

Tom Owad

--
Sysop of Caesarville Online
Client software at: 



From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Sat Dec 12 12:27:06 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: tektronics 503 scope
References: 
Message-ID: <3672B579.E152F44A@bigfoot.com>

$5 is a good price but I think John's storage scope is the type for use with a
terminal monitor, one that has no display. The 503 is a regular cart type. Dependant
upon what he wants and needs he'll have to decide. If I'm not mistaken the rack
units are as heavy as the ogic analyzers I had some time back last spring, about 50
lbs or more.The 503 should be about 30 lbs and is local.

John Lawson wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote:
>
> > ok, so its not a classic computer but there was a discussion a while back
> > about ocilloscopes and i happened upon a model 503 at a thift store for $80.
> > is it worth getting? presumably it works but i have no idea how one would test
> > it, much less use it.
> >
> > david
> >
>
>   Hey Dave...  go back up the list a few posts and read John R.
> Keyes' message entitled "A few notes..."  He has obtained a Really
> Nice Tek scope for a good price..  perhaps you can work up a deal
> with him.
>
>   $80 for a ancient 503 is absurd. That model is 50's vintage and
> very limited bandwidth...  and wouldn't even be fun to learn on,
> because I don't think you could keep it on the air reliably.
>
>   Also: I see many older Heathkit and Eico and RCA oscilloscopes and
> ham swapmeets... in the $5 range... one of those would be killer for
> you since it doesn'y take up the bench space like a big Tek does.
>
>   Anyone who is getting into exploring and restoring digital stuff
> at the hardware  level should try and get a nice scope... it really
> opens up one's capabilities to keep vintage gear running.
>
>   The one John Keyes mentions has different plug-in modules available
> that change it's modes of operation, including 8-channel inputs, just
> the thing for watching old computer busses.
>
>   Plus the learning experience would be interesting with an
> oscilloscope of that complexity.
>
>   And anyone wishing to get more info on scopes and how to use them
> is welcome to e-mail me...  I will try to help.
>
>   Cheers...  and Best of the Season
>
>  John



From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Sat Dec 12 12:32:24 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Info needed: Old video card
References: <3.0.5.32.19981212093528.00967770@mail.bluefeathertech.com>
Message-ID: <3672B6B7.782EC58C@bigfoot.com>



Bruce Lane wrote:

> This is a long shot, but does anyone have any info (particularly the EISA .CFG file) for a high-end video card once turned out by Helio Computers, Inc.? This is a 'HiRes 1280,' and it would be a Cool Thing if I could get it going in a system I'm putting together.

Try the visual search on video cards at Windrivers at http://www.windrivers.com/ and look for the video pump chip on the card. Even though Helio made the card, or sold it, it may have an S3, trident, or other video chip on it that a generic driver would work for.
There may even be an EISA file for it as well if you find a source for the drivers but uusally EISA machines use their own EISA setup program to talk to the EISA cards, much like the setup on microchannel cards since EISA is essentially ISA enhanced to include smart
features that MCA had.

What EISA machine do you have, I may have a setup program or know where to locate it.



From dburrows at netpath.net  Sat Dec 12 13:15:22 1998
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Problems with a PDP-11/04
Message-ID: <002b01be2604$a84680b0$bf281bce@p166>

I was thinking about is but it seems like he has the docs there and I have
no docs on the 11/04 here.  Viasystems has some docs but I have not gotten
copies yet.  I will drop him a note about the items I am sure about however
to get him on the right track.

Dan


> Could someone a little smarter on 11/04's than I am please give this
>fellow a hand?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>-=-=-  -=-=-
>
>On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 07:22:51 GMT, in alt.sys.pdp11 you wrote:
>
>>>From: hamster@telnet.hu




From jruschme at exit109.com  Sat Dec 12 13:29:44 1998
From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Laser 128
In-Reply-To:  from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at "Dec 12, 98 00:46:50 am"
Message-ID: <199812121929.OAA16410@crobin.home.org>

> the keyboard on the laser is terrible! not much better than an atari 400. i've
> got two, one with a bad keybounce problem. anyone know of a way to fix it?

Common problem... mine responded well to disassembly and cleaning.

IIRC, the Laser keyboard is the type where each plugner has a little piece of
foil on the bottom. The circuit board has little half-circles which are
bridged with each keypress.

On mine, I opened the case (blooddy pain) and disconencted the keyboard. On 
the bottom of the keyboard were a lot of tiny screws. Removing them allowed
access to the circuit board which I cleaned with contact cleaner.

Works very well since then.

<<>>


From allisonp at world.std.com  Sat Dec 12 13:41:42 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: tektronics 503 scope
Message-ID: <199812121941.AA11482@world.std.com>

< ok, so its not a classic computer but there was a discussion a while bac
< about ocilloscopes and i happened upon a model 503 at a thift store for 
< is it worth getting? presumably it works but i have no idea how one woul
< it, much less use it. 

Old... maybe a bit high priced.

If it gets a trace then it's likely ok.  You can test the V-amp if there 
is trace by touching the input and seeing if you can get a rough(from 
noise) sine wave.

Allison



From cfandt at netsync.net  Sat Dec 12 13:43:42 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: tektronics 503 scope{Scope Checkout 101}
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <4.1.19981212133836.00a9ba60@206.231.8.2>

At 11:29 12/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>ok, so its not a classic computer but there was a discussion a while back
>about ocilloscopes and i happened upon a model 503 at a thift store for $80.
>is it worth getting? presumably it works but i have no idea how one would test
>it, much less use it. 

Well David, this model will not be too useful in troubleshooting a computer.

Looking in my 1966 Tektronix catalog in the specs for the 503 I find that
the bandwith (basically, the calibratable frequency response) of the input
amplifiers is DC to 450 kHz. Short pulses often found in digital logic may
not be seen and a probable logic timing defect would be missed with this
scope. The response of this scope's P2 CRT phosphor is a bit slow too and
though a pulse could be swept by the electron beam the phosphor may not be
bright enough to see it even in a darkened room. This unit would be great
for audio work however (0-20 kHz)!

Besides, $80 is far too much to pay for this model. If you could get it for
around $25-$35 you'd be in the ballpark I think (only IF it works!). You'd
have to get adaptors for any modern scope probes you would buy nowadays.
The input connectors are known as type PL-259. Unless you found early Tek
probes (type P6006 or P6023) at a hamfest you'd need a male PL-259 to
female BNC adaptor. Actually, at the frequencies this scope would be
useful, you could simply get an old set of VOM probes with uncovered banana
plugs and plug them into the center of the PL-259 connector as use them as
is. The scope weighs 29 1/2 pounds.

For those of us working on older computers (with clock speeds of, say <1
MHz to maybe up to 3 MHz) my feeling is to have a 'scope with a freq.
response of at least 20 MHZ so that most short-risetime pulses and glitches
can be caught. A 100 MHz scope would be ideal to see most everything.
However, one day at work I couldn't solve a logic switching problem in a
prototype I was building. Clock speed was 2.0 MHz. I had to drag in my 250
MHz HP 183A scope from home to find it. Our 100 MHz Tektronix missed it. 

With todays 50 MHZ+ clock freqs even that 250 MHz scope can't see some
short pulses on a 486 motherboard I've worked with. This is where a good,
fast logic probe is needed or a fancy, expensive very wide bandwidth scope
(1 GHz BW and higher).

David, if you are interested in that scope yet, ask if you could plug it in
and test it. There is a built-in calibrator with two square-wave signal
levels available, 500 mV and 5 mV, at somewhere between 300 and 500 Hz.
Most HP, Tektronix and other high quality scopes have a built-in
calibrator. Take a half meter length of hookup wire along. Strip both ends
back a few mm before you leave the house. I assume you would be able to
figure out how to setup most of the controls on the scope. If not, ask in
private email please. Stick one end of the wire into the center of one of
the Vertical Input connectors and the other into one of the two CAL. OUT
pin jacks. If setup okay and the scope is interested in working then you
should see a square-wave signal somewhere near the CAL. OUT amplitude level
on the screen.

This advice also applies toward you other somewhat inexperienced folks out
there who happen across a scope and would be allowed to do a simple test
before buying. 

I call this a "Classic" oscilloscope being over 30 years old. I don't know
the production years of this model though but it was introduced before '66.
It would be great tool to use on an IBM 704! If it was closer to me I'd
like to add it to my Tektronix collection.

Regards,  Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/


From jrkeys at concentric.net  Sat Dec 12 01:47:11 1998
From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: tektronics 503 scope
In-Reply-To: <3672B579.E152F44A@bigfoot.com>
Message-ID: <000301be25a3$a07e95e0$f9afadce@5x86jk>

The unit I have has it's own display built in, I do not have the power cord
to hook it up for testing yet.  The unit is about 40 lbs. I think will check
it a scale.  John

> -----Original Message-----
> From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu
> [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Russ Blakeman
> Sent: Saturday, December 12, 1998 12:27 PM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Re: tektronics 503 scope
>
>
> $5 is a good price but I think John's storage scope is the type
> for use with a
> terminal monitor, one that has no display. The 503 is a regular
> cart type. Dependant
> upon what he wants and needs he'll have to decide. If I'm not
> mistaken the rack
> units are as heavy as the ogic analyzers I had some time back
> last spring, about 50
> lbs or more.The 503 should be about 30 lbs and is local.
>
> John Lawson wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > ok, so its not a classic computer but there was a discussion
> a while back
> > > about ocilloscopes and i happened upon a model 503 at a thift
> store for $80.
> > > is it worth getting? presumably it works but i have no idea
> how one would test
> > > it, much less use it.
> > >
> > > david
> > >
> >
> >   Hey Dave...  go back up the list a few posts and read John R.
> > Keyes' message entitled "A few notes..."  He has obtained a Really
> > Nice Tek scope for a good price..  perhaps you can work up a deal
> > with him.
> >
> >   $80 for a ancient 503 is absurd. That model is 50's vintage and
> > very limited bandwidth...  and wouldn't even be fun to learn on,
> > because I don't think you could keep it on the air reliably.
> >
> >   Also: I see many older Heathkit and Eico and RCA oscilloscopes and
> > ham swapmeets... in the $5 range... one of those would be killer for
> > you since it doesn'y take up the bench space like a big Tek does.
> >
> >   Anyone who is getting into exploring and restoring digital stuff
> > at the hardware  level should try and get a nice scope... it really
> > opens up one's capabilities to keep vintage gear running.
> >
> >   The one John Keyes mentions has different plug-in modules available
> > that change it's modes of operation, including 8-channel inputs, just
> > the thing for watching old computer busses.
> >
> >   Plus the learning experience would be interesting with an
> > oscilloscope of that complexity.
> >
> >   And anyone wishing to get more info on scopes and how to use them
> > is welcome to e-mail me...  I will try to help.
> >
> >   Cheers...  and Best of the Season
> >
> >  John
>
>



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sat Dec 12 16:22:15 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: HP-HIL keybaord and mouse
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981212162215.2b57582c@intellistar.net>

Can the person from this list that asked me for a HP-HIL mouse and keyboard
contact me again?  I found the items but I can't find your name or message.

   Joe



From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com  Sat Dec 12 14:29:28 1998
From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: HP 264x terminals (wasRe: HP Cards - ID?)
Message-ID: 


>Ha! I recognize those. They're spare boards out of HP's 264x terminals.


Speaking of these terminals, I have a 2649a that is just old enough to buy
a Penthouse, sans keyboard/documentation. The cards are really pretty, as
Hans said, and unfortunately full of gold (which means they're probably
usually melted rather than just junked).

I'd like to be able to use this with my HP 3000/37 system, but need a
little help locating a keyboard and setting it up. I'll try on the HP300-L
mailing list too, but any info/pointers, as always, would be much
appreciated.


Aaron



From jpero at pop.cgocable.net  Sat Dec 12 09:46:20 1998
From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: HP-HIL keybaord and mouse
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981212162215.2b57582c@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <199812122040.PAA12706@mail.cgocable.net>

> Date:          Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:22:15
> Reply-to:      classiccmp@u.washington.edu
> From:          Joe 
> To:            "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
> Subject:       HP-HIL keybaord and mouse

Snip!
> 
>    Joe

Joe,

I'm wondering if you ever seen my emails about the MO drive and 7 
discs that you're selling?  I got no replies back from yours.  My 
email once again:  jpero@cgocable.net

Thanks for your replies!
email: jpero@cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.


From Metol at aol.com  Sat Dec 12 15:19:20 1998
From: Metol at aol.com (Metol@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Conner Hard drives?
Message-ID: <55d13698.3672ddd8@aol.com>

HI:

I have a Conner 3 1/2 inch HD CP 3044 do you know what the drive will format
to?

Thanks for any help.

Ed


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sat Dec 12 15:34:26 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Conner Hard drives?
In-Reply-To: <55d13698.3672ddd8@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

>I have a Conner 3 1/2 inch HD CP 3044 do you know what the drive will format
>to?

The following should answer all your hard drive questions for this and
other models.  It's a page well worth bookmarking.

http://www.blue-planet.com/tech/

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From jpero at pop.cgocable.net  Sat Dec 12 10:45:36 1998
From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Conner Hard drives?
In-Reply-To: <55d13698.3672ddd8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199812122139.QAA07794@mail.cgocable.net>

> Date:          Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:19:20 EST
> Reply-to:      classiccmp@u.washington.edu
> From:          Metol@aol.com
> To:            "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
> Subject:       Conner Hard drives?

> HI:
> 
> I have a Conner 3 1/2 inch HD CP 3044 do you know what the drive will format
> to?

Around 40MB, IDE.  Use Type 17 or 820/6/17, fdisk then format.
I had several before, not bad drive and best for battery powered 
portables.  Lowest power useage around 3 Watts..  Closest is WD1270 
for that wattage range at 270MB and very few larger drives as well.

 Aside from this, I have an HD CP3184 which I thought was 
180MB which was not true!  I was surprised at this and this is 
somewhat nonstandard model convention for Conner.  
Truly 80MB Sheesh  .Another nonstandard naming is CP3111 which is 
also used same logic board but formatsout to nearly 100MB.   

Jason D.

> 
> Thanks for any help.
> 
> Ed
> 
> 
email: jpero@cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.


From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Sat Dec 12 15:40:29 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Conner Hard drives?
In-Reply-To: <55d13698.3672ddd8@aol.com> from "Metol@aol.com" at Dec 12, 1998 04:19:20 PM
Message-ID: <199812122140.OAA30792@calico.litterbox.com>

> HI:
> 
> I have a Conner 3 1/2 inch HD CP 3044 do you know what the drive will format
> to?
> 


Technical data for conner hard drives is available at
www.seagate.com/support/disc/index.shtml

In this case, it says the cp3044 has 980 cylinders, 5 heads, and 17 sectors,
and a capacity of 42.6 megabytes.


-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Sat Dec 12 16:23:58 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Conner Hard drives?
References: <55d13698.3672ddd8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3672ECFD.2296134D@bigfoot.com>

Metol@aol.com wrote:

> I have a Conner 3 1/2 inch HD CP 3044 do you know what the drive will format
> to?

It's a 42mb IDE. It's native parameters are 1047 cyls, 2 heads, 40 sectors per
track. The translated parameters for machines that can't use over 1024 cyls is
665cyls, 16 hds, 63 sectors per track. It's an autopark drive, 3.5" 3H, 25 ms
access. RWC and LWC don;t apply to this drive.



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 12 14:58:15 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To:  from "Simon Coombs" at Dec 11, 98 11:43:10 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 12 15:17:32 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: tektronics 503 scope
In-Reply-To:  from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at Dec 12, 98 11:29:15 am
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 12 16:00:34 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: tektronics 503 scope
In-Reply-To:  from "John Lawson" at Dec 12, 98 09:24:20 am
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 12 16:04:15 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: epson hx-20 problems
In-Reply-To:  from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at Dec 12, 98 01:23:51 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 12 16:31:00 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model III Parts/Advice (fwd)
In-Reply-To:  from "Scott Walde" at Dec 11, 98 10:21:30 pm
Message-ID: 

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From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Sat Dec 12 17:34:01 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: epson hx-20 problems
Message-ID: <92574d9c.3672fd69@aol.com>

i finally did initialise the machine and now i get two choices, monitor and
basic. machine seems to be working now. i was able to get the tape drive
working by keying in LOAD but thats all. 
any web resources for this machine as far as how to use it? 


In a message dated 12/12/98 6:04:42 PM EST, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes:

<< Did you try pressing Control-@ ? That is a hard reset, which is what you 
 need to do at that point. It clears the memory.
 
 I am a little worried that choice '2' isn't BASIC. It should be. Maybe 
 initialising the machine would help.
  >>


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sat Dec 12 19:40:50 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: HP-HIL keybaord and mouse
In-Reply-To: <199812122040.PAA12706@mail.cgocable.net>
References: <3.0.1.16.19981212162215.2b57582c@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981212194050.2ecff250@intellistar.net>

Jerome,

  No, I didn't see your messages about the MO drive. Did you post them on
the mailing list or send them directly to me?  Here's some answers that I
gave someone else about the drive.

"At 01:32 AM 12/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Joe wrote:
>
>> I have a complete 5 1/4" Sony MO drive with 7 disks, cables, Bustek
>> bus-mastering 16 bit SCSI controller, Softeware and SW manual that need a
>> home.  If anyone wants it E-mail me directly.  I'll sell it outright or
>> trade for somehting that I can use.
>
>Jerome Fine replies:
>
>I am mostly interested in the Sony Drive to be attached to a PDP-11??

  I don't know anything about DECs except how to operate a MV-II.

>
>Is it still available? 

  Yes.

> And what city are you located in or near?

  Orlando, Florida.

>Do you have a minimum price at this point?  

  I'd like to get $100 plus shipping for it.

When was the
>last time the drive worked? 

  A couple of weeks ago.  It's been on my PC but I haven't been using it
much in the last couple of years and it's taking up too much room on the desk.

 Does the drive read 512 Bytes/Sector?

   I don't know., The disks I have are 1024 B/S but that doesn't mean the
drive won't work with others. I would think that the B/S controlled by the
controller card and/or device driver.
>
>Which version are we talking about.  Sony had a very early version
>SMO-D501 and later the SMO-E501? 

  It's a SMO-S501-II version I dated 1990.


 Also, who made the platters?

  Sony.

>And what is their capacity? 

  650 Mb (I think!)

 So I know which ones they are.  Are they
>double-sided? 

  Yes.

 If so, what is the capacity of each side? 

  650Mb/2 = 325 Mb.

 I presume the
>MO drive can read only one side at a time.  So what is the true capacity
>of the SMO drive based on a single-sided platter?

   325 Mb
>
>I am not familiar with the PC host adapter?  Can you describe it
>a little more.  I am not very PC literate at all, so please be simple.

   It's a 16 bit ISA card. the 16 bit slot is the same as that found on the
IBM PC AT and most (or all) newer PCs. It's a bus-mastering controller. I'm
not sure I understand that part but I think it means that the CPU halts and
turns the control of the bus over to the card. The card can then send/take
data directly to/from RAM, disk drives etc without everything having to go
through the CPU.  The card was made by Bus-tech. Bus-logic bought them out
but still sells the same card with the same model number under there own
name. The software I'm using is SCSI Express from Micro Design
International.  BTW I should add that I bought this as a complete system.
It came from Martin Marietta when they closed their plant in Albaquerque."


>
>


At 03:46 PM 12/12/98 +0000, you wrote:
>> Date:          Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:22:15
>> Reply-to:      classiccmp@u.washington.edu
>> From:          Joe 
>> To:            "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"

>> Subject:       HP-HIL keybaord and mouse
>
>Snip!
>> 
>>    Joe
>
>Joe,
>
>I'm wondering if you ever seen my emails about the MO drive and 7 
>discs that you're selling?  I got no replies back from yours.  My 
>email once again:  jpero@cgocable.net
>
>Thanks for your replies!
>email: jpero@cgocable.net
>Pero, Jason D.
>



From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Sat Dec 12 17:47:26 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: epson hx-20 problems
In-Reply-To: <92574d9c.3672fd69@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000201be2629$c58b2de0$32f438cb@a.davie>

I have a HX-20 manual, if that's any help.  Feel free to ask questions.
In fact, I have a complete HX-20 with attached Expansion interface, all
available for sale/trade.
Cheers
A

> -----Original Message-----
> From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu
> [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of SUPRDAVE@aol.com
> Sent: Sunday, December 13, 1998 10:34 AM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Re: epson hx-20 problems
>
>
> i finally did initialise the machine and now i get two choices,
> monitor and
> basic. machine seems to be working now. i was able to get the tape drive
> working by keying in LOAD but thats all.
> any web resources for this machine as far as how to use it?



From jpero at pop.cgocable.net  Sat Dec 12 12:57:20 1998
From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: HP-HIL keybaord and mouse
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981212194050.2ecff250@intellistar.net>
References: <199812122040.PAA12706@mail.cgocable.net>
Message-ID: <199812122351.SAA05123@mail.cgocable.net>

> Date:          Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:40:50
> Reply-to:      classiccmp@u.washington.edu
> From:          Joe 
> To:            "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
> Subject:       Re: HP-HIL keybaord and mouse

Hold on Joe, This is Jason D not Jerome!  :-)

And yes, I tried 2 times sending this replies 
(rigdonj@intellistar.net) direct to yours.  Looks like something is 
broken on your end.

$100 US?  Well, let's see what happens on your other responses.
325MB available size and flip it over manually to access other side?

Thanks!

Jaosn D.

PS:  Thanks for the late info, you should provide that info in first 
place when posted here.
email: jpero@cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.


From roblwill at usaor.net  Sat Dec 12 20:38:07 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model III Parts/Advice (fwd)
Message-ID: <01be2641$9e01cb40$cd8ea6d1@the-general>

>
>If you want to try to repair a keyswitch, then try the following.
>
>You can unclip the 2 parts of the housing at the sides. The top part
>lifts off, releasing (in order) the plunger, a spring and a little rubber
>dome. The contact is the black (graphite-loaded) rubber pad inside the
>dome and the 2 metal contacts in the bottom part of the switch. Clean the
>metal contacts with a cotton bud and isopropyl alcohol (propan-2-ol). You
>can try rubbing the rubber pad on very fine (1000 grit or finer)
>wet-n-dry paper.
>
>Put the switch together. Measure the resistance between the pins when
>it's pressed down. You should use 2 pins diagonally oposite each other
>for this test. A good switch is about 50-100 Ohms. A useable one is
><300Ohms. More than that, and it probably won't work. If you have all the
>switches out, put the worse ones on the numeric pad as above.
>
>If you still have a defective switch, then try rubbing a soft pencil (I
>use a 6B) on the rubber pad inside. That got my worst swtich useable
>again. There is a special kit for this from Chemtronics which recoats the
>rubber contacts, but it's not cheap ($30). It could be worth using if you
>can't get the switch working any other way.
>

Sure that's a model III keyboard?  The keyboard on my Mod. III has actual
metal contacts in the switch that are pushed together by a tab when the key
is pressed.

>Putting it all back together is the reverse of dismantling it. Take great
>care when putting the Model 3 case back together - it's possible to break
>the CRT neck on the logic cage. And while it's possible to replace the
>CRT, new ones are not that easy to get.
>

The CRT was blown out in mine when I got it.  Replaced it with one from an
old RCA 12" B/W TV.  Works fine.  Where I live, the local thrift store
usually have at least 2 or 3 B/W TV's at a time.  I picked up the one I used
for $2.50.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From Mzthompson at aol.com  Sat Dec 12 17:58:00 1998
From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Digital Group photo from VCF?
Message-ID: 

Uncle Roger  wrote:

>A bit of trivia...  I was in Denver on holiday a while back, and went to
>the Colorado History Museum (Denver has great museums!)  There, amidst a
>lot of other Colorado stuff, was a Digital Group computer.  Very Cool, but
>I'm sure there are still drool stains in the carpet around it.  8^)

Another bit.....  It wasn't until after my business trip to Sydney,
Australia that I find out they have a computer museum.  I found out
from the guy who is involved with a like museum in Perth.  What do
you suppose they use for a drool control system?

Mike


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 12 18:03:48 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model III Parts/Advice (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <01be2641$9e01cb40$cd8ea6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Dec 12, 98 06:38:07 pm
Message-ID: 

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From afritz at delphid.ml.org  Sat Dec 12 18:43:23 1998
From: afritz at delphid.ml.org (Adam Fritzler)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: DecSystem 5400 with RA90s and TK70 Available
In-Reply-To: <199812121620.KAA15188@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com>
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 12 Dec 1998, Jay Jaeger wrote:

> While I was at the regular weekly UW (Wisconsin) Friday surplus sale
> yesterday picking up an Intergraph Clipper system for my collection (
> working 8-) ), I noticed a DecSystem 5400 with 2 RA90 disk drives and a
> TK70 tape drive is available out there for $20, including a short rack.
> The system looks very very clean, physically.  I have no room for it.
> 
> It is not a MicroVAX, but is instead a RISC system, presumably using a MIPS
> RISC processor.

Wish I had enough to ship/get such a thing to AZ.... Someone tried to sell
me one of these locally about 8mo ago for about $800... 

Nice boxes for their time.  QBus version of the DECstation line of
MIPS-based machines.

af

---
  Adam Fritzler
  { afritz@delphid.ml.org , afritz@iname.com}
    http://delphid.ml.org/~afritz/
  "Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were." 
           -- Chicago Reader, 15 Oct 1982



From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Sat Dec 12 18:43:21 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Mosaic/Netscape
Message-ID: <36730DA9.A21147D5@geocities.com>

Does anyone here know where I can get Windows and Linux versions of
Netscape 3.x or less, or Mosaic? I need these for computers that are
growing classic...
--------------------------------------
Max Eskin	kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com


From roblwill at usaor.net  Sat Dec 12 21:48:06 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model III Parts/Advice (fwd)
Message-ID: <01be264b$64acc700$6c8ea6d1@the-general>



>Yes I am sure my M3 keyboard is like that. So is my Model 4 keyboard. 
>They're both made by Alps. 
>
>_BUT_ when I ordered a new keyswitch for my Model 3 some 10 years or so 
>ago, Tandy National Parts needed to know that I wanted an Alps keyswitch. 
>They implied that there were others. I'd forgotten about that until you 
>reminded me.
>
>
Mine's an Alps, too, unless it's just an older model.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From daveygf at aol.com  Sat Dec 12 19:25:16 1998
From: daveygf at aol.com (David Freibrun)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: altaircomputers.org website
Message-ID: <19981213012516.14172.qmail@findmail.com>

Complete ClassicCmp archives related to Altair are now on my website. Also, just added archives from various Usenet newsgroup discussin Altair computer family.

Here is what I currently am working on:
   -adding software content
   -adding scanned pictures of Altair brochures 
   -adding scans of advertisements from MITS
   -building a virtual museum

If any of you would like to contribute to this effort send me your ideas!

http://altaircomputers.org


From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Sat Dec 12 19:55:54 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Mosaic/Netscape
In-Reply-To: <36730DA9.A21147D5@geocities.com> from "Max Eskin" at Dec 13, 1998 12:43:21 AM
Message-ID: <199812130155.SAA31717@calico.litterbox.com>

netscape has older versions, but they're hard to find on their download site.

Mosaic 3.x is available at 
http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/SDG/Software/WinMosaic/Install.htm

Previous versions are probably on their ftp site.
> 
> Does anyone here know where I can get Windows and Linux versions of
> Netscape 3.x or less, or Mosaic? I need these for computers that are
> growing classic...
> --------------------------------------
> Max Eskin	kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com
> 


-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From cfandt at netsync.net  Sat Dec 12 20:45:22 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: tektronics 503 scope
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <4.1.19981212211816.00ab1460@206.231.8.2>

At 22:00 12/12/98 +0000, Tony Duell wrote:
>
>Warning : Hunting for obscure Tek modules/manuals is at least as adictive 
>as going after old computers. And you will have to get used to valved 
>circuitry.

Amen to that Tony! Besides, I grew up on tubes (valves) since I was about
11 or 12. Greatly disappointed when in first year of college the course on
vacuum tube theory was eliminated (Fall of '71) because the instructor left
the school for another job late that summer. Instead I took 'Intro Computer
Circuits' (or some name like that) which was a revelation for me :)

>
>I have 3 scopes I use regularly. One is the Tek 555 I mentioned earlier. 
>It's old, it's heavy, and it really can't be used 'in the field'. But 
>it's got delayed timebase, sampler module, spectrum analyser, etc. Not 
>all useful for computer repair.
>
I have a Tek 547 with 1A1 plugin (50 MHZ bandwidth), Tek 422 portable (15
MHz b/w), Tek 564 with about 8 or 9 different plugins (10 MHz max. b/w)
plus an HP 183 with 1830 plugin (250 MHz b/w) all of which which serves
much of my needs for fixing computers, radios, TVs, etc. Good tools.

>Another is a small, old, Solartron CD1400. Again it's valved, has a 
>bandwidth of 15MHz (enough for a lot of work), I have the delayed 
>timebase module, etc. This one gets used for tracing video signals (it'll 
>look at colour subcarriers, etc), audio work, etc.
>
>The last is a Velleman LCD scope. I'd prefer a Fluke or Tektronix, but 
>the Velleman is about 1/10th the price. It's only 500Khz, but it's enough 
>to look at PSU ripple, motor drive signals, line output waveforms, etc. 
>And it's easy to carry about, etc.
>
>One thing. A good second-hand scope (like a Tektronix or an HP) will cost 
>about the same as a new low-end unit. There is no comparison in the 
>quality, though - the Tek/HP is the much better instrument. And it's 
>probably more reliable as well. I have had plenty of problems with some 
>makes which have horrible triggering, non-linear timebase, etc. 

Those 500-series Tek scopes are an engineers dream IMO. What a design! What
detail! What reliability! What serviceability! OT: has anybody seen in the
schematics of the older Tek scopes an occasional cartoon character? I can
reference several examples off-list. I went hysterical with laughter the
first time I stumbled onto one. What a hoot! Shows Tektronix was't such a
stuffy, nose-in-the-air company.

>
>> 
>>   Anyone who is getting into exploring and restoring digital stuff 
>> at the hardware  level should try and get a nice scope... it really 
>> opens up one's capabilities to keep vintage gear running.
>
>I think my logic analyser gets rather more use than my 'scope. Of course 
>which you use depends on what you're used to. And there are times when I 
>_need_ a 'scope.

Wish I had a decent logic analyser myself. I just gotta get out to the
bigger hamfests and hunt one up one of these days. Used ones are more
available for reasonable prices with more features and performance nowadays.

>
>>   Plus the learning experience would be interesting with an 
>> oscilloscope of that complexity.
>
>I would not recomend learning to fix the 'scope as a first project, 
>unless you enjoy that sort of thing...
>
>>   And anyone wishing to get more info on scopes and how to use them 
>> is welcome to e-mail me...  I will try to help.
>
>Or post to the list. I'll probably respond as well, and the uses of 
>'scopes (and other test gear) for repairing old computers is on-topic (I 
>hope!).

If Tony doesn't see it or is stumped (not likely) I'll jump in and help
anyone too.

And yes indeed, being pretty much on topic is discussing the tools one
would use to fix his/her computers.

Regards, Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/


From yowza at yowza.com  Sat Dec 12 20:50:01 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: altaircomputers.org website
In-Reply-To: <19981213012516.14172.qmail@findmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On 13 Dec 1998, David Freibrun wrote:

> If any of you would like to contribute to this effort send me your ideas!
> 
> http://altaircomputers.org

Despite the fact that the Altair is way overblown, this is a nice
collection of info!  I hadn't seen that 1995 LA Times article before.
In it, Ed Roberts says that 40,000-50,000 Altairs were made, which is
higher than other estimates I've heard.

You might consider adding repair/restoration information to your site
since Altairs didn't work so hot it the 70's, people will probably have
trouble getting theirs to work today!

Of course, if you wanted to add information about earlier personal
computers, or even earlier microcomputers, I'm sure your visitors would
appreciate the perspective.  As Dave Dameron noted earlier, the first
organized personal computer user groups and newsletters appeared as early
as 1966 with ACS, and as I've mentioned several times previously, there
are several personal computers and even personal robots that go back to
around 1950.

I'm surfing from Lynx right not, so I can't play audio.  Were any of those
Fool on the Hill audio clips on your site produced by an Altair a la Steve
Dompier?

-- Doug



From djenner at halcyon.com  Sat Dec 12 20:56:26 1998
From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Warped or bent floppies
Message-ID: <36732CDA.FFAAC8F5@halcyon.com>

I have a few floppies, both 8-inch and 5.25-inch, whose outer sleeves
have been warped or bent due to various reasons over the years.
Although it appears that the inner, flexible media are OK, I am
reluctant to try to read and copy these without taking some sort of
precautions.

When I try to manually rotate the inner media, it is either very
difficult or impossible without doing some harm to the floppy.
(Usually, you can do this manually with only a little effort.)  I
worry that putting them into a drive may totally destroy the floppy.
Some of these floppies (especially the 8-inchers) are up to 20 years
old and contain what I now consider to be valuable material.  I have
successfully read and copied other floppies of the same vintage (and
probably same origin) as these warped ones with no problems.

So, what do I do?  Is it conceivable to open and remove the inner
media from the warped sleeves?  Should I just try putting them under
a pile of books to see if the warps decrease?  Any ideas or practical
experience with this would be greatly appreciated.

Just for reference, in case the particulars help any, the 8-inch
floppies are single-sided, single-density and were written on a
DEC RX01 or equivalent.  Most of the 5.25-inch floppies were written
on an Apple II.

Thanks,
Dave


From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com  Sat Dec 12 21:08:43 1998
From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Warped or bent floppies
Message-ID: <981212220843.2f000613@trailing-edge.com>

>So, what do I do?  Is it conceivable to open and remove the inner
>media from the warped sleeves?

Absolutely.  With 5.25" floppies, it's not even necessary to put
them back into a sleeve before reading.  With 8" floppies, which
can be substantially more floppy and harder to seat in the drive
without a sleeve, just put them in a nice known-clean sleeve.
8" DS drives will also likely get confused if you stick a naked
floppy in them, so best to find a nice clean sleeve.

>  Any ideas or practical
>experience with this would be greatly appreciated.

Certainly, a common cause for "floppy won't rotate" is "the Pepsi
sydrome".  A good rinse of the media in warm water will help
remove whatever soda/orange juice/kool-aid is causing the
problem.

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927


From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Sat Dec 12 21:37:01 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: tektronics 503 scope
References:  <4.1.19981212211816.00ab1460@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: <3673365B.B77A21F8@bigfoot.com>

> At 22:00 12/12/98 +0000, Tony Duell wrote:
> >
> >Warning : Hunting for obscure Tek modules/manuals is at least as adictive
> >as going after old computers. And you will have to get used to valved
> >circuitry.

Tek manuals are generally easy to locate - locating the cash for what they want
for originals or copies is the tricky part. Many tubes(valves) are still
available new as NOS or rebuilds or newly made. I even have problems on a new
digital scope finding some things from HP.



From lfb107 at psu.edu  Sat Dec 12 21:49:47 1998
From: lfb107 at psu.edu (Les Berry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Mosaic/Netscape
Message-ID: <199812130345.WAA56206@f04n07.cac.psu.edu>

At 06:55 PM 12/12/98 -0700, Jim Strickland wrote:
>netscape has older versions, but they're hard to find on their download site.
>
>Mosaic 3.x is available at 
>http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/SDG/Software/WinMosaic/Install.htm
>
>Previous versions are probably on their ftp site.
>> 
>> Does anyone here know where I can get Windows and Linux versions of
>> Netscape 3.x or less, or Mosaic? I need these for computers that are
>> growing classic...
>> --------------------------------------
>> Max Eskin	kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com

I actually have Mosaic 0.9 laying around somewhere.  Is that old
enough for ya?

Les



From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Sat Dec 12 21:58:46 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Mosaic/Netscape
In-Reply-To: <199812130356.WAA02794@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA16851; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 19:47:40 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 lfb107@psu.edu wrote:
> I actually have Mosaic 0.9 laying around somewhere.  Is that old
> enough for ya?

Yes, quite
> 
> Les
> 

----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From yowza at yowza.com  Sat Dec 12 22:08:55 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Early Personal Computers and Ivan Sutherland
In-Reply-To: <199812130345.WAA56206@f04n07.cac.psu.edu>
Message-ID: 

Wow.  Ivan Sutherland has long been one of my heros.  The first "mind
blowing" machine I ever used was an E&S PS-300 in the early 80's, and
after that I learned of his pioneering work with Sketchpad, robots, etc.

Anyway, you know how I'm constantly babbling about personal computers from
the 1950's, right?  Well, today I got some notes from somebody who
designed some of those machines.  I don't want to give away too much
before my virtual museum is open, but the storage device for one of those
machines was designed by Ivan Sutherland, age 16!  He won a scholarship to
Carnegie Institute of Technology (now CMU, I assume) based on his work.

Cool, eh?

-- Doug




From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Sat Dec 12 22:15:00 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Z-80 Emulator
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981211111500.00f7bea0@pc>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, John Foust wrote:

> At 09:00 AM 12/11/98 -0800, Sam Ismail wrote:
> >
> >C'mon, Hans!  Get with it.  This is just a cheezy way to dupe people into
> >thinking this thing is worth more than it really is.
> 
> So entering a description like "It's not an Altair, but..." would
> be more accurate and wouldn't attract eyeballs or search queries?  :-)

Now you're getting it!

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From jpl15 at netcom.com  Sat Dec 12 22:44:21 1998
From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Today's rescues
Message-ID: 


  Along with a *pile* of DEC stuff (in someone else's behalf, more 
later when some details have been worked out..)  I adopted a Mac 
SE30 with a LaserWriter II...  which was being used up to 
yesterday..  and a Zenith Data Systems SupersPort 286 Laptop. (This 
unit assumes you have a *generous* lap.)

  The Zenith is in 8 out of 10 shape, cosmetically almost perfect, 
with battery pack and ac adapter. The battery pack works, 
unfortunately the CMOS battery has failed it's trust and therefore 
no HD access.  The unit boots from a floppy, however the neatest 
feature of this machine is the ROM Monitor that it boots into if 
nothing else works.  Now to get out the hacksaw and electric chisel 
and see if I can't dig down to that naughty little CMOS batt.

  There also might be available a number of new-looking GridCase 
portables, but I don't have them yet....

  Cheers  and Best of the Season

  John



From jeff.kaneko at juno.com  Sat Dec 12 22:02:48 1998
From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
Message-ID: <19981212.220249.58.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>



On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:50:59 -0800 Larry Anderson 
writes:
>In reference to the memory question some VIC/VC REUs went to 24k (like 
>the MSD
>one I have here), but there was also the Aprotek RAM 
>expander/cartridge
>expander which filled every gap, all the contiguous memory (including 
>the 3k
>portion in lower RAM) as well as the upper 8K Game ROM space. 32k?  I 
>think
>they gave it a bigger number, maybe by adding the 5k and the ROMS to 
>the
>'total memory', regardless, the Aprotek one was the ultimate in VIC-20 
>expanders...

Another was the Data20 64k VideoPAK.  This sucker had it all: 64k of
paged
RAM, 40 or 80 column display, and a built in terminal emulator.  Way
cool.
If you purchased yours towards the end of Data-20's life, you got a 
spreadsheet and word processor with it.  Mine, alas, broke last fall.
It won't display 80 columns.  I also lost the software for it. :-(

ANother cool Data-20 product was the Z-80 VideoPAK.  This added a Z-80
cpu, and an 80-column display to the C-64.  It was supposed to run 
CP/M also.  I also have one of these as well (thanks Doug!), but no
software.  Still looking.



___________________________________________________________________
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From ai705 at osfn.org  Sat Dec 12 23:27:51 1998
From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:10 2005
Subject: Mosaic/Netscape
In-Reply-To: <199812130345.WAA56206@f04n07.cac.psu.edu>
Message-ID: 


> >> Does anyone here know where I can get Windows and Linux versions of
> >> Netscape 3.x or less, or Mosaic? I need these for computers that are
> >> growing classic...
> >> --------------------------------------
> >> Max Eskin	kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com


When you need to find an older file that was once common but has long 
since been superseded on most ftp servers, try:

http://www.filez.com/

Despite the name, it has nothing directly to do with hackers or warez.

The main search page has the option to query for files from various 
flavors of Windows, DOS, Unix, Netware, Macintosh, Newton, OS/2, Acorn, 
Amiga and Atari.

Best results are obtained by setting the number of files returned option 
to the highest number - 500.

A quick search turned up Netscape .9, 1.1N and various versions of 2 thru 
4. For mosaic, there was some version of 1, a lot of version 2, an OS/2 
version and some unknown versions. The file names can be a little cryptic.

The only problem is that they seem to search their own indexes of the ftp 
servers and they may not be quite as up to date as what is actually on 
the server. So there is no guarantee the search will find real files, but 
there are usually enough duplicate listings that one of them will work.


                                      -- Stephen Dauphin


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sun Dec 13 01:36:04 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Anyone know what this is for?: AT&T ext SCSI drive
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981213013604.48371bca@intellistar.net>

 I found this while digging through a surplus store. AT&T external SCSI
drive model DM/300S. It's a white metal box about 11" square and 4" high.
Does anyone know what machine/system it's for or the specs for it? It has
two round co-axial connectors on the back marked "Power" and "Control".
Anyone know what they're for?  It has a socket for an AC power cord so the
"Power" connection isn't for powering the drive.

   Joe



From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Sat Dec 12 23:36:27 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: HX20 (was: Re: Just bought this . . .)
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981211101607.3e673898@ricochet.net>

At 08:55 AM 12/11/98 -0000, you wrote:
>Roger wrote, regarding the printer in the HX-20 and AIM-65:
>> As to five heads versus one, you can print five characters at once.  Faster
>> printing.  
>
>Disregarding the time spent moving the paper, it is slower (5/8 the speed),
>since you are only printing five dots at a time rather than eight.  But
>speed wasn't the point.

I always thought that the more common printheads were 9x1 -- that is, a
single column of 9 dots.  This moved across the paper printing 8 or so
times for each character.  To have 5 sets spaced out would divide your
horizontal print time by 5.  

For the HX-20, because it had only one row of dots, you then have to
multiply the time by 9 to get the 5 full characters.  So the HX-20 probably
took 9/5 as long or was about twice as slow.  It would have been
considerably slower if there were only 1 pin instead of 5 across.

>The real win was just that the mechanism was cheaper than the more common
>eight-vertical-dot mechanisms.

For the HX-20, that may have been very true, since it may have been prior
to Epson getting into buying/building mass quantities of printheads.


--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                       http://www.sinasohn.com/



From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com  Sun Dec 13 00:03:01 1998
From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Anyone know what this is for?: AT&T ext SCSI drive
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981213013604.48371bca@intellistar.net> from Joe at "Dec 13, 98 01:36:04 am"
Message-ID: <199812130603.BAA11373@hiway1.exit109.com>

>  I found this while digging through a surplus store. AT&T external SCSI
> drive model DM/300S. It's a white metal box about 11" square and 4" high.
> Does anyone know what machine/system it's for or the specs for it? It has
> two round co-axial connectors on the back marked "Power" and "Control".
> Anyone know what they're for?  It has a socket for an AC power cord so the
> "Power" connection isn't for powering the drive.

Sounds suspiciously like it's for a 3B2. 

The 3B2 used an interesting daisy-chained soft-power scheme. When the main
system was powered up, it would put out 5V on a coax port on the back. The
5v would close a relay on the power supply of the expansion box (in lieu
of a switch) and turn on power to the expansion box.

I'm guessing here, but I assume that one of the ports is the 5v in and the
other would output 54v to power up the next peripheral in line.

<<>>


From donm at cts.com  Sun Dec 13 00:04:48 1998
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: epson hx-20 problems
In-Reply-To: <92574d9c.3672fd69@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote:

> i finally did initialise the machine and now i get two choices, monitor and
> basic. machine seems to be working now. i was able to get the tape drive
> working by keying in LOAD but thats all. 
> any web resources for this machine as far as how to use it? 

Take a look at ftp.epson.com/pub/hxpxqx where you will find some 
information relative to the HX.
						 - don
 
> In a message dated 12/12/98 6:04:42 PM EST, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes:
> 
> << Did you try pressing Control-@ ? That is a hard reset, which is what you 
>  need to do at that point. It clears the memory.
>  
>  I am a little worried that choice '2' isn't BASIC. It should be. Maybe 
>  initialising the machine would help.
>   >>
> 

    donm@cts.com
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
    Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives
         Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society
       Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology.
     Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard  (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
        see old system support at  http://www.psyber.com/~tcj
visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cws86.kyamk.fi/mirrors/cpm
   	 with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm




From yowza at yowza.com  Sun Dec 13 00:37:09 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Mainframes at Junk Yard
In-Reply-To: <199812121827.KAA10336@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 12 Dec 1998, Tom Owad wrote:

> The Sperry Univac:
> 
> This one's bigger that a refrigerator, with a reel unit (which is nearly 
> as big) attached to it.  There wasn't any model number on the front panel 
> that I could see.  This is a Unix system, I'm guessing?

If it's a Univac I, I want it :-)  I really don't know much about the
history of the Univac, but the same name was used for a bunch of quite
different machines I think.  The first one was the direct descendent of
the ENIAC, so no, the "Uni" in Univac has nothing to do with Unix, if
that's what you're thinking.

It sounds like quite a cool graveyard, though.

-- Doug



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sun Dec 13 00:45:28 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Does DECNET = DECNET?
Message-ID: 

How OS specific is DECNET?  If I've got a Linux Box speaking DECNET (Yes,
they do that now), can that same box do a 'set host' to a system running
DECNET on RSX-11M?  I've used a Linux box to speak to a VAX before and it
worked quite well.  Basically I'm more interested in transfering files to
the PDP-11 rather than logging into it over the net.

Oh, and I'm assuming I should get this working, is it possible to write a
tape on RSX-11M that RT-11 can understand.  I would assume so, but...

Life would be so much easier if I'd ever gotten a floppy drive working on
my main PDP-11/73.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Sun Dec 13 00:57:56 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Does DECNET = DECNET?
In-Reply-To:  from "Zane H. Healy" at Dec 12, 1998 10:45:28 PM
Message-ID: <199812130657.XAA00152@calico.litterbox.com>

Linux can do decnet? Really?  Cool!  How do you get it set up?

> How OS specific is DECNET?  If I've got a Linux Box speaking DECNET (Yes,
> they do that now), can that same box do a 'set host' to a system running
> DECNET on RSX-11M?  I've used a Linux box to speak to a VAX before and it
> worked quite well.  Basically I'm more interested in transfering files to
> the PDP-11 rather than logging into it over the net.
> 
> Oh, and I'm assuming I should get this working, is it possible to write a
> tape on RSX-11M that RT-11 can understand.  I would assume so, but...
> 
> Life would be so much easier if I'd ever gotten a floppy drive working on
> my main PDP-11/73.

-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sun Dec 13 01:47:11 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Does DECNET = DECNET?
In-Reply-To: <199812130657.XAA00152@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Dec 12, 98 11:57:56 pm
Message-ID: <199812130747.XAA23707@shell2.aracnet.com>

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From ware at interaccess.com  Sun Dec 13 01:55:37 1998
From: ware at interaccess.com (Scott Ware)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Rescue - WANG systems available in St. Louis (fwd)
Message-ID: 


J. Buck Caldwell has 7 WANG desktop computer systems available in St.
Louis.  If anyone is interested, please contact him directly.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 16:49:41 -0600
From: "J. Buck Caldwell" 
To: ware@interaccess.com
Subject: Computer Rescue List

I'm getting rid of my WANG computers (for lack of OS) and was wondering if
you want them. Free if you pick up, St. Louis area, I've got 7 Wang
desktop systems - don't know much about them, looks like they can boot
from a floppy, serial, or network - but it's not ethernet (or arcnet, or
anything NORMAL). Let me know if you're interested. 

--
J. Buck Caldwell

               Engineer - Technical Support - Webmaster
Polygon, Inc.         email:buck_c@polygon.com   phone: (314) 432-4142
PO Box 8470            http://www.polygon.com/     fax: (314) 997-9696
St. Louis, MO 63132     ftp://ftp.polygon.com/     bbs: (314) 997-9682






From amirault at epix.net  Sun Dec 13 06:36:40 1998
From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Mosaic/Netscape
References: <36730DA9.A21147D5@geocities.com>
Message-ID: <3673B4D8.EF37B807@epix.net>

Max,
  Here is a suggestion. Call your ISP and ask for it. You should be able
to get it FREE and NEW. I hope this helps you.
                       John Amirault

Max Eskin wrote:

> Does anyone here know where I can get Windows and Linux versions of
> Netscape 3.x or less, or Mosaic? I need these for computers that are
> growing classic...
> --------------------------------------
> Max Eskin       kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com





From pechter at monmouth.com  Sun Dec 13 07:08:28 1998
From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Mosaic/Netscape
In-Reply-To: <3673B4D8.EF37B807@epix.net> from John Amirault at "Dec 13, 98 07:36:40 am"
Message-ID: <199812131308.IAA33333@monmouth.com>

> Max,
>   Here is a suggestion. Call your ISP and ask for it. You should be able
> to get it FREE and NEW. I hope this helps you.
>                        John Amirault
> 
> Max Eskin wrote:
> 
> > Does anyone here know where I can get Windows and Linux versions of
> > Netscape 3.x or less, or Mosaic? I need these for computers that are
> > growing classic...
> > --------------------------------------
> > Max Eskin       kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com
> 

Boy, up to recently they were still on the ftp site.
Wow.  
One source of the Windows versions is to pick up old Netscape books
which packed the cd with 'em for $5.00 or so.  I've picked up a few
but I don't want to let them go.

Bill


From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Sun Dec 13 07:33:12 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines (NES programming)
In-Reply-To: <199812112124.NAA26496@oa.ptloma.edu>
Message-ID: <002101be269d$21ad9ea0$b4f438cb@a.davie>

> The Nintendo's video arch sounds similar to the Commodore 128's 8563 VDC,
> which according to designer Bil Herd was a nightmare. All 16 to 64K of VDC
> memory is only accessible through the ports at $d600/d601. Worse, you have
> to observe proper timing (and sometimes write the registers *twice*). The
> 8563, originally intended for the mythical CBM 900 mainframe, was
> supposedly

Pretty much the same.
The read (for some reason) was buffered, so you'd set your two byte address,
then read the register (to bring it into the buffer), then read it again to
get the actual value.  NES was also time-critical.  If you tried to
read/write graphics data when the screen was on - well, too bad - because
the hardware also used the very same address register for displaying the
screen..   You ended up corrupting the screen and worse.
It made for innovative programming - I ended up using these strange quirks
to implement a software multidirectional scroll, previously considered
impossible on the plain vanilla NES.  Fun days.

Cheers
A




From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sun Dec 13 11:01:49 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Anyone know what this is for?: AT&T ext SCSI drive
In-Reply-To: <199812130603.BAA11373@hiway1.exit109.com>
References: <3.0.1.16.19981213013604.48371bca@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981213110149.2dffcd1c@intellistar.net>

John,

  I think you may be right. There's a co-axial connector on the 3B2 that's
exactly the same as the one on the drive and there's no power switch on the
drive. I KNEW I had seen those connectors somewhere before. I have a couple
of 3B2s but I don't have any docs for them and I've never fired them up.
The drive has the standard Amphenol SCSI connector. There's no connector
like that on the 3B2 only a couple of uunmarked ribbon cable connectors.
Does the drive connect to one of them or is there a card for the 3B2 that
has a SCSI port?  If it does connect to one of the ribbon cable connectors,
do you have a diagram of the cable so I could make one?

   Joe

At 01:03 AM 12/13/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>  I found this while digging through a surplus store. AT&T external SCSI
>> drive model DM/300S. It's a white metal box about 11" square and 4" high.
>> Does anyone know what machine/system it's for or the specs for it? It has
>> two round co-axial connectors on the back marked "Power" and "Control".
>> Anyone know what they're for?  It has a socket for an AC power cord so the
>> "Power" connection isn't for powering the drive.
>
>Sounds suspiciously like it's for a 3B2. 
>
>The 3B2 used an interesting daisy-chained soft-power scheme. When the main
>system was powered up, it would put out 5V on a coax port on the back. The
>5v would close a relay on the power supply of the expansion box (in lieu
>of a switch) and turn on power to the expansion box.
>
>I'm guessing here, but I assume that one of the ports is the 5v in and the
>other would output 54v to power up the next peripheral in line.
>
><<>>
>



From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com  Sun Dec 13 08:59:27 1998
From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Does DECNET = DECNET?
Message-ID: <981213095927.2f000647@trailing-edge.com>

>Here is the URL for the 'DECnet for Linux' Homepage.  I'm in the process
>of getting the latest version installed at this momnet.  It looks like
>they've made some serious improvements.
>http://linux.dreamtime.org/decnet/

Hmm - it looks like they do Phase IV, SET HOST, and FAL, which I think
is all you need.

It looks like they've only done extensive testing under VMS, so it's
possible that some of their tools assume VMS-ism's not present under
RSX.  But you won't know till you try!

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927


From allisonp at world.std.com  Sun Dec 13 11:11:48 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Does DECNET = DECNET?
Message-ID: <199812131711.AA25537@world.std.com>

< How OS specific is DECNET?  If I've got a Linux Box speaking DECNET (Yes
< they do that now), can that same box do a 'set host' to a system runnin
< DECNET on RSX-11M?  I've used a Linux box to speak to a VAX before and i
< worked quite well.  Basically I'm more interested in transfering files t
< the PDP-11 rather than logging into it over the net.

Decnet sethost is similar to TELNET and is not specifically platform 
specific.  File access maybe as VMS supports 36char filenames and 
versioning.

< Oh, and I'm assuming I should get this working, is it possible to write 
< tape on RSX-11M that RT-11 can understand.  I would assume so, but...

It may be possible but the file system hooks may be subtle in their 
interface.  I'd ecpect it to work but surprizes are possble.

For me this is a good reason to get into linux.

Allison




From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Sun Dec 13 12:02:38 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Z-80 Emulator
In-Reply-To: <367154CB.70743F73@rain.org>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote:

> > > Nice the Nice :) I just can't get the connection to
> > > the Item title: 'S100 BUS IMSAI ALTAIR Z80 EMULATOR'
> > > Is there any S100 stuff included ? Or anything form /
> > > for an Altair or IMSAI ? Or at least a good story ?
> > 
> > C'mon, Hans!  Get with it.  This is just a cheezy way to dupe people into
> > thinking this thing is worth more than it really is.
> 
> Nope, this is just a way of putting a value on it!

What!?  Hardly!  This is an unfortunate justification of tactics used to
deceive ignorant buyers.  Its misleading, pure and simple, and is meant to
artificially inflate the value of an otherwise uninteresting artifact.

> And speaking of value, the November 1975 issue of Popular Electronics
> (Altair 680 issue) sold for $41.00.  A week or so ago, the January 1975
> issue of Popular Electronics sold for $503.00.  Something is worth what
> someone else is willing to pay for it.

Maybe it would be more appropriate to discuss the stupidity of the people
paying these amounts then.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Sun Dec 13 12:09:33 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Free ADM-5, other stuff, DC area
In-Reply-To: <981211143806.2f000530@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote:

> For anyone who wants a 17-year-old terminal that looks just like
> an iMac, I've got a Lear-Siegler ADM5 here that works and I'd like
> to give away.  Pickup only, in Bethesda MD (just inside the Beltway).

Tim, you're going about this all wrong.  You need to advertise this on
eBay as an "early iMac prototype".  Since the iMac was allegedly modeled
after the ADM5, that's not too far-fetched.  Its no worse than calling a
Z-80 emulator a "S100 BUS IMSAI ALTAIR Z80 EMULATOR".

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]




From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Sun Dec 13 12:18:38 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Z-80 Emulator
In-Reply-To: <367194F2.5F506B95@netzone.com>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Neil B. Sheldon wrote:

> interested in that other stuff. Additionally, There were boards made with the
> z80 for the S100 bus machines. Could be used by any of those people. No
> intention to 'dupe' anyone, just find the ones that would be interested in
> looking at it.

So?  The TRS-80 was also a Z-80 computer.  Would you advertise a TRS-80 as
an "Altair/IMSAI 8080" clone?

Your argument is doubly silly since the Altair and IMSAI were 8080-based.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dburrows at netpath.net  Sun Dec 13 11:53:06 1998
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Does DECNET = DECNET?
Message-ID: <000201be26c8$97980670$bf281bce@p166>

>
>Life would be so much easier if I'd ever gotten a floppy drive working on
>my main PDP-11/73.
>
> Zane


What kind of problems are you having getting a floppy working in the 11/73.
If you need an RX50 I have several you can have for the shipping I also have
a few RX33's.

Dan



From tomowad at earthlink.net  Sun Dec 13 13:36:16 1998
From: tomowad at earthlink.net (Tom Owad)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Mainframes at Junk Yard
Message-ID: <199812131935.LAA09463@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

>If it's a Univac I, I want it :-)

That's what its labeled.  Coleman's Surplus is at 360 Klinger Rd, 
Millersburg, PA 17061.  Their web site is at .  No clue 
how much they wanted for it, but getting it out of there is the _real_ 
problem.  Of course, getting it to California might be kind of 
challenging as well.  :-)

>I really don't know much about the
>history of the Univac, but the same name was used for a bunch of quite
>different machines I think.  The first one was the direct descendent of
>the ENIAC, so no, the "Uni" in Univac has nothing to do with Unix, if
>that's what you're thinking.

Yes, that's what I was thinking.

>It sounds like quite a cool graveyard, though.

I felt like quite the computer archaeologist.  :-)

Tom Owad

--
Sysop of Caesarville Online
Client software at: 



From marvin at rain.org  Sun Dec 13 13:47:39 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Advertising
References: 
Message-ID: <367419DB.761E7B4D@rain.org>

Sam Ismail wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote:
> 
> > > > Nice the Nice :) I just can't get the connection to
> > > > the Item title: 'S100 BUS IMSAI ALTAIR Z80 EMULATOR'
> > > > Is there any S100 stuff included ? Or anything form /
> > > > for an Altair or IMSAI ? Or at least a good story ?
> > >
> > > C'mon, Hans!  Get with it.  This is just a cheezy way to dupe people into
> > > thinking this thing is worth more than it really is.
> >
> > Nope, this is just a way of putting a value on it!
> 
> What!?  Hardly!  This is an unfortunate justification of tactics used to
> deceive ignorant buyers.  Its misleading, pure and simple, and is meant to
> artificially inflate the value of an otherwise uninteresting artifact.

First of all, let the buyer beware; ANYONE buying ANYTHING should keep that
in mind. Money makes a really good educator ... at least for some of us.

Second, you are confusing deceit with advertising (although some may argue
they are one and the same :). ) If someone sees something and decides to
either buy or not buy, that is their decision.  However the key word here is
"see".  I am not a fan of emulators, but for those that are, this might be
something they are interested in.  This could also be a way for someone who
didn't realize emulators are out there to find out about them.

Finally, my comment about putting a value on it was about putting it on
ebay.  Quite possible I misread the meanings of the other comments :)!


From marvin at rain.org  Sun Dec 13 14:14:29 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Value
References: 
Message-ID: <36742025.9B94C322@rain.org>

Sam Ismail wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 11 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote:
> 
> > And speaking of value, the November 1975 issue of Popular Electronics
> > (Altair 680 issue) sold for $41.00.  A week or so ago, the January 1975
> > issue of Popular Electronics sold for $503.00.  Something is worth what
> > someone else is willing to pay for it.
> 
> Maybe it would be more appropriate to discuss the stupidity of the people
> paying these amounts then.

Come on Sam, you of all people should realize that what we have out here is
not necessarily easily available in other parts of the country.  I think you
are imposing your own education and knowledge of what is available here on
others who may not be so fortunate.

As one example of what is available here (Santa Barbara), but not elsewhere,
I *highly* doubt anyone else anywhere in the world could have come up with
the collection of Polymorphic stuff I have (including source code, parts
lists, engineering drawings, specs, business plan, etc., etc., etc.)  That
happened because 1) they were made here in Santa Barbara, and 2) contacts I
have knew about my collecting and were able to save this stuff from going to
the dump.

So assuming you had, lets say, the Polymorphic Business plan, how would you
put a value on it?  While I don't know how many were made let alone still
around, I rather doubt there are more than perhaps a couple in existance now
(I only know of this one.)  I am really interested to hear your answer on
this one!!!

Heading off your comments that this is an unusual situation (which I think
it is), certain areas have a higher concentration of technical types than
others, university towns, silicon valley, Boston area, etc.  Things are much
more likely to be found in those areas than areas like, lets say, the
Michigan Upper Pennisula (sp?.)  So what is the difference in availability
of something between the two areas?  How would that affect the price (value)
of a given item in the two areas?


From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com  Sun Dec 13 14:20:16 1998
From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: DECStuff FS or trade
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981213122016.00970540@mail.bluefeathertech.com>

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From marvin at rain.org  Sun Dec 13 14:30:15 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s
References: <3.0.5.32.19981213122016.00970540@mail.bluefeathertech.com>
Message-ID: <367423D7.81B7D2AA@rain.org>

Interesting item on ebay.  I hadn't heard of it but it looks like it is an
interesting part of early computer history! The URL is:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=47803992


From Mzthompson at aol.com  Sun Dec 13 14:46:47 1998
From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: DecSystem 5400 with RA90s and TK70 Available
Message-ID: 


  Jay Jaeger  wrote:

>While I was at the regular weekly UW (Wisconsin) Friday surplus sale
>I noticed a DecSystem 5400 with 2 RA90 disk drives and a
>TK70 tape drive is available out there for $20, including a short rack.
>The system looks very very clean, physically.  I have no room for it.

>It is not a MicroVAX, but is instead a RISC system, presumably using a MIPS
>RISC processor.

>The folks over there told me they are having a big sale December 29th, so
>if you want it, you should probably grab it no later than that.  They are
>open every Friday AM from 8AM to 2PM, IIRC.

  Adam Fritzler 

>Wish I had enough to ship/get such a thing to AZ.... Someone tried to sell
>me one of these locally about 8mo ago for about $800... 

>Nice boxes for their time.  QBus version of the DECstation line of
>MIPS-based machines.

A 5400 uses a BA213 chassis.  The lower portion is a 12 slot Qbus backplane.
The upper section has room to mount a tape drive, and up to three RFxx
series drives.  The BA213 can be rack mounted, but mostly found in a stand
alone case measuring around 14x20x27.  The case has wheels which, given
the weight of the thing, is nice.

It uses a two board KN210 processor set, slot 1 being the I/O module and
slot 2 being the CPU module.  It will take up to four MS650 16Mb memory
cards.  The processor runs at 20Mhz.  It has an MMJ console connector
and both BNC and AUI Ethernet connectors.  It will run Ultrix 3.1B or
later.

The RA90 drives are 1.2Gb.

My point is that someone needs to haul this off.  I have already got two
of them, or might think about getting it myself.  Actually too far away
and the wrong time of the year.   I had a dealer in IL offer me $150 for
one, but I decided it was worth more just to play with.

If someone gets this, I have the 5400 hardware manual and will answer what
questions I can.  I also have a manual on the RA90/RA92 and the SA600/SA800
Storage Array (that I suspect the drives are mounted in) that I don't
need.

Mike


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Sun Dec 13 14:50:00 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: altaircomputers.org website
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 12 Dec 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:

> Despite the fact that the Altair is way overblown, this is a nice
> collection of info!  I hadn't seen that 1995 LA Times article before.
> In it, Ed Roberts says that 40,000-50,000 Altairs were made, which is
> higher than other estimates I've heard.

In that case this makes the Sol-20 much rarer than the Altair (~10,000
ever produced).  The Sol-20 is a much cooler and more interesting machine
than the Altair anyway.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From yowza at yowza.com  Sun Dec 13 14:51:57 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s
In-Reply-To: <367423D7.81B7D2AA@rain.org>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote:

> Interesting item on ebay.  I hadn't heard of it but it looks like it is an
> interesting part of early computer history! The URL is:

Your ebay advertising service is great for ebay, and great for sellers,
but please consider what you do to the poor bidders who already know about
this stuff and have plans to bid on it.

Advertising an auction is not the same as advertising a Usenet ad, for
example, in which the advantage goes to those who did their homework and
legwork earlier than the others.  In the auction case, you've simply
raised the price of the item. 

Wasn't it you who just said "caveat emptor" in response to deceptive
advertsing tactics?  Well, I say to you: vicum emptor, let the buyer find
it!

(No, that's not how you say it, but my Latin dictionary is in my other
suit.)

Argh.

-- Doug



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Sun Dec 13 14:52:52 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Warped or bent floppies
In-Reply-To: <36732CDA.FFAAC8F5@halcyon.com>
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 12 Dec 1998, David C. Jenner wrote:

> I have a few floppies, both 8-inch and 5.25-inch, whose outer sleeves
> have been warped or bent due to various reasons over the years.
> Although it appears that the inner, flexible media are OK, I am
> reluctant to try to read and copy these without taking some sort of
> precautions.

Its very easy to open up the warped pocket, remove the magnetic media, and
put it into a newer disk pocket with its media removed.  Problem solved.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com  Sun Dec 13 15:03:24 1998
From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s
Message-ID: <981213160324.2f000667@trailing-edge.com>

>> Interesting item on ebay.  I hadn't heard of it but it looks like it is an
>> interesting part of early computer history! The URL is:
>Your ebay advertising service is great for ebay, and great for sellers,
>but please consider what you do to the poor bidders who already know about
>this stuff and have plans to bid on it.

I dunno - I kind of like looking at pictures/descriptions of interesting
items, and folks posting Ebay URL's often (maybe even usually) do a
decent job of finding the "interesting" stuff.

Of course, I also realize that there's no local shortage of interesting
computer hardware free for the hauling, and am damn unlikely to bid 
on anything :-).

I didn't think computer-collecting was such a competitive hobby, but some
others evidently feel differently.  I see way too many late 60's/
70's minis and micros going through the scrap metal recyclers to think
that there's any shortage of historical stuff to keep me busy.

Tim.


From yowza at yowza.com  Sun Dec 13 15:19:10 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: altaircomputers.org website
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Sam Ismail wrote:

> In that case this makes the Sol-20 much rarer than the Altair (~10,000
> ever produced).  The Sol-20 is a much cooler and more interesting machine
> than the Altair anyway.

I assume it's the *original* Altair that's in big demand, and I'm sure
there were less than 10,000 "straight" 8800's made (at least, the serial
number has a distinct 10K problem).

But, as we've seen, for those speculators who apparently don't know any
better, even a late model turnkey can fetch upwards of $4K.

-- Doug



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Sun Dec 13 15:34:05 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Value
In-Reply-To: <36742025.9B94C322@rain.org>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote:

> As one example of what is available here (Santa Barbara), but not elsewhere,
> I *highly* doubt anyone else anywhere in the world could have come up with
> the collection of Polymorphic stuff I have (including source code, parts
> lists, engineering drawings, specs, business plan, etc., etc., etc.)  That
> happened because 1) they were made here in Santa Barbara, and 2) contacts I
> have knew about my collecting and were able to save this stuff from going to
> the dump.
> 
> So assuming you had, lets say, the Polymorphic Business plan, how would you
> put a value on it?  While I don't know how many were made let alone still
> around, I rather doubt there are more than perhaps a couple in existance now
> (I only know of this one.)  I am really interested to hear your answer on
> this one!!!

I don't see how your anecdote relates to the issue at hand.  I still don't
see how advertising a Z-80 emulator in relation to an IMSAI or Altair
makes any sense.  He has the right to engage in such deceptive practices,
certainly.  But I'm not going to condone it.  Its just taking this
exploitation of "collectable" computers too far.  It would have made more
sense for him to advertise this machine on comp.os.cpm or maybe
alt.folklore.computers, or any of the various newsgroups devoted to
computers that actually were based on a Z-80, like comp.sys.tandy.

I don't have a problem with people trying to make a buck in this hobby.
Certainly I'm guilty of the same thing.  What I do have a problem with is
people attempting to shamelessly exploit it.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From yowza at yowza.com  Sun Dec 13 15:46:08 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Value
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Sam Ismail wrote:

> He has the right to engage in such deceptive practices,
> certainly.

Say what?  Deceptive advertsing is illegal.  You can file a complaint with
the FTC if you'd like.  As you might guess, it's one of those many crimes
easy for an individual or small seller to get away with.

Since prosecution of such crimes is so unlikely, I've been thinking of
forming vigilante.net (damn, just checked, and it's already taken!), a
network of sysadmins around the country willing to LART these guys,
sellers that engage is shill bidding, crooks that take the money and run,
crooks that send damaged goods, etc.

-- Doug



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 13 12:29:49 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: tektronics 503 scope
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981212211816.00ab1460@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Dec 12, 98 09:45:22 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 13 12:34:09 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Warped or bent floppies
In-Reply-To: <36732CDA.FFAAC8F5@halcyon.com> from "David C. Jenner" at Dec 12, 98 06:56:26 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 13 12:44:44 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: tektronics 503 scope
In-Reply-To: <3673365B.B77A21F8@bigfoot.com> from "Russ Blakeman" at Dec 12, 98 09:37:01 pm
Message-ID: 

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From marvin at rain.org  Sun Dec 13 16:13:31 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s
References: 
Message-ID: <36743C0B.E569DEF6@rain.org>

Doug Yowza wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote:
> 
> > Interesting item on ebay.  I hadn't heard of it but it looks like it is an
> > interesting part of early computer history! The URL is:
> 
> Your ebay advertising service is great for ebay, and great for sellers,
> but please consider what you do to the poor bidders who already know about
> this stuff and have plans to bid on it.

Tell you what Doug,  let me know all the email addresses you use, and if I
see one where you are bidding, I won't mention it.  I did that with several
other auctions where I saw your email address but nerd@youza.com is not one
I have seen you use.  Fair enough?  If I see an auction where a listmember
email address shows up, I don't mention it here; I DO check the bidders list
before putting it here (at least usually.)


From marvin at rain.org  Sun Dec 13 16:22:13 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Value
References: 
Message-ID: <36743E15.C68786E3@rain.org>

Sam Ismail wrote:
> 

> I don't see how your anecdote relates to the issue at hand.  I still don't
> see how advertising a Z-80 emulator in relation to an IMSAI or Altair
> makes any sense.  He has the right to engage in such deceptive practices,

I thought I explained the anecdote issue in the following paragraph you
didn't quote.

As far as deceptive practices, the only thing I might take issue with is the
minor detail that most Altairs and IMSAIs I have seen use the 8080 rather
than the Z80.  I guess a case might be made for upgrading to a Z80, but
again, there is nothing to stop a prospective buyer from emailing the seller
to find out more about an item.


From yowza at yowza.com  Sun Dec 13 16:26:06 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s
In-Reply-To: <36743C0B.E569DEF6@rain.org>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote:

> Tell you what Doug,  let me know all the email addresses you use, and if I
> see one where you are bidding, I won't mention it.  I did that with several
> other auctions where I saw your email address but nerd@youza.com is not one
> I have seen you use.  Fair enough?  If I see an auction where a listmember
> email address shows up, I don't mention it here; I DO check the bidders list
> before putting it here (at least usually.)

Well, there's at least one other list contributor on that bidders list,
and one list lurker that I know of.  But even if there are no bids, some
bidders use the technique of bookmarking and then bidding near the end, so
you *never* know.

I will sometimes post ebay URLs for stuff that has already closed, but I
figure if somebody on this list is 1) willing to use ebay, and 2) looking
for something specific, they're already actively searching ebay, and
there's no reason for me to "help" them and risk pissing off others who
had hoped to get the item for a reasonable bid.

-- Doug



From pb0aia at iaehv.nl  Sun Dec 13 16:36:16 1998
From: pb0aia at iaehv.nl (Kees Stravers)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
  
Message-ID: <199812132236.XAA29220@iaehv.IAEhv.nl>

How about the Philips P2000 family? I have not seen messages about
those machines on the list. Z80 system, 48K RAM, 16K ROM in a cart
so it was easy to change programs, micro cassette recorder that was
operated by the computer so no fiddling with buttons, floppy drives
optional, video 40x24 color (viewdata/teletext character set) or 
80x24 monochrome. Started life as a dedicated word processor, BASIC 
cart added later. There was a disk operating system that could work
with the programs originally meant for cassette use only, and CP/M
was available. P2000T was the 40x24 cassette version, P2000M was the 
80x24 disk version. There also was a P2000C, which was a 'portable'
machine like the Kaypro's, but it ran CP/M only and was not compatible
with the P2000T/M. AFAIK they were all developed and produced in
the Philips factories in Austria.

Picture of a P2000M at
http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/sroom.html
Picture of a P2000C at
http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/lroom.html

Kees

-- 
Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia@iae.nl
Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - Visit VAXarchive!
http://vaxarchive.ml.org (primary) - http://www.sevensages.org/vax/ (mirror)
See my old computers at http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered



From yowza at yowza.com  Sun Dec 13 16:36:43 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Value
In-Reply-To: <36743E15.C68786E3@rain.org>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote:

> As far as deceptive practices, the only thing I might take issue with is the
> minor detail that most Altairs and IMSAIs I have seen use the 8080 rather
> than the Z80.  I guess a case might be made for upgrading to a Z80, but
> again, there is nothing to stop a prospective buyer from emailing the seller
> to find out more about an item.

Lemme get this straight.  The guy uses S-100, Altair, and IMSAI in the
title, includes a little pseudo-Altair history in his ad, he's selling a
common Z80 ICE made in the late 80's, long after MITS and IMSAI were
shutdown, and you don't see this as deceptive? 

What I like about it is that it seems to have back-fired.  I'm sure there
are many more people that could use a Z80 ICE than there are computer
collectors, so he probably could have gotten a better price by being
completely straight.

-- Doug



From marvin at rain.org  Sun Dec 13 16:35:46 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s
References: 
Message-ID: <36744142.AB5B744E@rain.org>

Doug Yowza wrote:
> 
> Advertising an auction is not the same as advertising a Usenet ad, for
> example, in which the advantage goes to those who did their homework and
> legwork earlier than the others.  In the auction case, you've simply
> raised the price of the item.

Doug, another thing just crossed my mind.  Anyone who looks at the bid items
will see your name (assuming you are bidding on it :) ), and it would seem
like a good thing on your part to bid late, as that wouldn't give those that
want to see what you are up to any advance notice on what might be
interesting.  While checking out ebay, I did notice what appeared to be a
great item (don't recall the name but it was a plastic computer) that was
auctioned in a catagory that made no sense.  If I had been following you and
others, I would have found it before the auction ended and decided what to
do then.  BTW, if I see someone I recognize bidding on an item, I generally
don't bid unless it is something I REALLY want.


From Innfogra at aol.com  Sun Dec 13 16:41:08 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
Message-ID: 

When you shop ebay you soon realize that to find anything you need to use a
search engine. Search engines use keywords. Finding the right keywords that
will find what you are looking for is difficult. I spend a lot of time going
through completed auctions to try and figure out what keywords people use to
describe their stuff. 

The question then becomes "What do I list this as, that will trip the keywords
that people search for?" You end up packing the limited space for the
description with keywords that are only related to the item you are selling.
This is an unfortunate consequence of the Internet revolution, not false
advertising. The Internet revolution is about making contacts. We are making
new modes of how to do this.

I have some gold chips that would be attractive to collectors (8080s, memory,
8008, etc.) but I have yet to figure out what to call them when I list them on
ebay. I am spending considerable time to try and figure out what keywords
people search for. I suspect my listings will be a mishmash of related words
when I get done. When I list these next year I expect to see lots of chuckles
about the prices I hope I am getting.

I find the comments about high prices for collectibles very interesting. Sure
you can find stuff going for hundreds of dollars. However if you search
completed sales you will find that a full range of prices exist. What brings
in top dollar are working machines, with accessories, software, documentation
and original boxes.  
If it is non-working, missing parts it often sells at a reasonable price, a
fraction of what the high end machines sell for. Another reason I see is for a
low selling price is a poor choices of keywords. If people can't find
you......

I appreciate the mention of the ebay listings. It helps me with my research
and often provides a few chuckles when I look at what people want for their
stuff.

We are at the beginning of a revolution, I don't think anyone knows where it
will shake out.


From yowza at yowza.com  Sun Dec 13 16:50:56 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s
In-Reply-To: <36744142.AB5B744E@rain.org>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote:

> Doug, another thing just crossed my mind.  Anyone who looks at the bid items
> will see your name (assuming you are bidding on it :) ), and it would seem
> like a good thing on your part to bid late, as that wouldn't give those that
> want to see what you are up to any advance notice on what might be
> interesting.

On the contrary, this is an advanced technique similar to a dog peeing
on his territory :-)  Almost all of the bidders on this particular item
were very savvy and simply "marked" the item with a low bid to give others
a heads-up about what to expect in the final minutes.  This is science!

> While checking out ebay, I did notice what appeared to be a
> great item (don't recall the name but it was a plastic computer) that was
> auctioned in a catagory that made no sense.  If I had been following you and
> others, I would have found it before the auction ended and decided what to
> do then.  BTW, if I see someone I recognize bidding on an item, I generally
> don't bid unless it is something I REALLY want.

A sophisticated bidder doesn't browse.  He knows what he's looking for and
has "canned" searches built-up that include keywords and even common
mispellings.  Science, I tell you!

In any case, it comes down to whether you would appreciate the same type
of "help" on items that you had already decided you were going to bid on
yourself.  If that wouldn't bother you, then by all means, continue.

-- Doug



From yowza at yowza.com  Sun Dec 13 17:03:28 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 Innfogra@aol.com wrote:

> I have some gold chips that would be attractive to collectors (8080s,
> memory, 8008, etc.) but I have yet to figure out what to call them when
> I list them on ebay. I am spending considerable time to try and figure
> out what keywords people search for. I suspect my listings will be a
> mishmash of related words when I get done. When I list these next year I
> expect to see lots of chuckles about the prices I hope I am getting. 

Tell us, and let us chuckle now.  8080's are available from any surplus
electronics shop in quantity.  I sold one of my 8008's on ebay a while
back "the CPU used in the Scelbi and Mark-8, before the Altair!" and got
$15 for it.  The chip collector niche is *much* smaller than even the tiny
computer collector niche.

> We are at the beginning of a revolution, I don't think anyone knows where it
> will shake out.

The *beggining* of the internet revolution?  You missed it by almost 30
years :-)  (I was just talking to a guy who was there for the installation
of IMP #1 at UCLA.)

-- Doug



From Innfogra at aol.com  Sun Dec 13 17:18:33 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601 and the revolution
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 12/13/98 12:57:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, yowza@yowza.com
writes:

> 
>  Your ebay advertising service is great for ebay, and great for sellers,
>  but please consider what you do to the poor bidders who already know about
>  this stuff and have plans to bid on it.
>  
>  Advertising an auction is not the same as advertising a Usenet ad, for
>  example, in which the advantage goes to those who did their homework and
>  legwork earlier than the others.  In the auction case, you've simply
>  raised the price of the item. 
>  

The Internet revolution is about making contacts. Marvin is facilitating that.

After reading these comments I immediately went to the listing and looked at
the bidding history. Sure enough, there are at least two of the bidders I
recognize from this list. 

When I used to go to auctions I hated to have anyone bid against me. This is a
natural and personal feeling. I was very good at finding sales that few others
went to. It was disappointing when these sales got discovered. However this is
life. Nothing stays the same. I am cultivating new sources. I am also
exploring the new way to buy and sell stuff, Internet auctions.

I don't hold that "spreading the word" is advertising. The Internet is about
community, communication and contacts. It is unfortunate when it impacts you
directly. However this is a revolution and we have to learn to go with the
changes.

It is too bad that Marvin's listing impacted you directly. Marvin was only
informing the community of something of interest. He is being a good
revolutionary. I appreciate that.


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Sun Dec 13 17:19:42 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 Innfogra@aol.com wrote:

> The question then becomes "What do I list this as, that will trip the keywords
> that people search for?" You end up packing the limited space for the
> description with keywords that are only related to the item you are selling.
> This is an unfortunate consequence of the Internet revolution, not false
> advertising. The Internet revolution is about making contacts. We are making
> new modes of how to do this.

With regards specifically to the auction in question, the item was listed
as a "S100 BUS IMSAI ALTAIR Z80 EMULATOR".  This item has nothing to do
with emulating the S-100 bus.  That is deceptive.

> I have some gold chips that would be attractive to collectors (8080s, memory,
> 8008, etc.) but I have yet to figure out what to call them when I list them on
> ebay. I am spending considerable time to try and figure out what keywords
> people search for. I suspect my listings will be a mishmash of related words
> when I get done. When I list these next year I expect to see lots of chuckles
> about the prices I hope I am getting.

Easy.  For the 8080 and 8008, Computers:Hardware:CPUs.  For the memory
chips, Computers:Hardware:Memory.  The categories are there.  You just
have to decide if you are going to use them honestly or not.

> We are at the beginning of a revolution, I don't think anyone knows where it
> will shake out.

If its going to shake out the way other hobbies that have been destroyed
by speculators and "antique" dealers have then I'll do what I can to
prevent that.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From yowza at yowza.com  Sun Dec 13 17:30:20 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601 and the revolution
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 Innfogra@aol.com wrote:

> It is too bad that Marvin's listing impacted you directly. Marvin was only
> informing the community of something of interest. He is being a good
> revolutionary. I appreciate that.

I like it.  Seller propaganda.  Marvin, you are the tool of the New Flea
Market Capitalist!  You must resist!  We can help you come to the Bidder
Resistance!  Help us break the shackles of oppressive ebay.  Burn, eBay,
burn! 

-- Doug :-)



From Innfogra at aol.com  Sun Dec 13 17:36:31 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 12/13/98 3:05:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, yowza@yowza.com
writes:

> 
>  The *beggining* of the Internet revolution?  You missed it by almost 30
>  years :-)  (I was just talking to a guy who was there for the installation
> of IMP #1 at UCLA.)
>  
You are a pioneer. The revolution starts when it is being adopted by the
masses. This is what is happening right now. Ebay is a part of it. The iMac is
a part of it. Mass use of the Internet will change it so that the pioneers
will have trouble recognizing it. The next few years will be interesting.
Paxton


From yowza at yowza.com  Sun Dec 13 17:50:03 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 Innfogra@aol.com wrote:

> You are a pioneer. The revolution starts when it is being adopted by the
> masses. This is what is happening right now. Ebay is a part of it. The iMac is
> a part of it. Mass use of the Internet will change it so that the pioneers
> will have trouble recognizing it. The next few years will be interesting.

The past few years have been interesting, too.  I would say the revolution
*ends* when it has mass appeal.  eBay already had 1.5 million users before
they went public.  Now they are a $5 billion company and advertise is the
mass media.

I'm interested to see how law gets enforced in such a community.  When you
see laws broken, such as the misleading and deceptive advertising laws,
and others that I've mentioned before, what comes next seems pretty
obvious to me: the ebay police.

-- Doug



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sun Dec 13 17:56:08 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:11 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
In-Reply-To:  from "Doug Yowza" at Dec 13, 98 05:50:03 pm
Message-ID: <199812132356.PAA14048@shell2.aracnet.com>

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From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au  Sun Dec 13 17:59:59 1998
From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Warped or bent floppies
In-Reply-To: <36732CDA.FFAAC8F5@halcyon.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981214105742.00a9cb90@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au>

At 06:56 PM 12-12-98 -0800, David C. Jenner wrote:
>I have a few floppies, both 8-inch and 5.25-inch, whose outer sleeves
>have been warped or bent due to various reasons over the years.
>Although it appears that the inner, flexible media are OK, I am
>reluctant to try to read and copy these without taking some sort of
>precautions.

>So, what do I do?  Is it conceivable to open and remove the inner
>media from the warped sleeves?  Should I just try putting them under
>a pile of books to see if the warps decrease?  Any ideas or practical
>experience with this would be greatly appreciated.

When this happened to me a few years ago (5.25" floppies shipped from the
States with lots of code on them that someone decided to fold neatly...) I
just removed the inner media on the damaged floppy and also from a new one.
I put the (slightly folded) inner media in the new sleeve, crossed fingers
and did a "one time" read of the data. It all worked.

Of course, YMMV but at least you know someone who had some success....

 Huw Davies                      | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au
 Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550  Fax: +61 3 9479 1999
 La Trobe University             | "If God had wanted soccer played in the
 Melbourne Australia 3083        | air, the sky would be painted green"


From Innfogra at aol.com  Sun Dec 13 17:57:50 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 12/13/98 3:05:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, yowza@yowza.com
writes:

> Tell us, and let us chuckle now.  8080's are available from any surplus
>  electronics shop in quantity.  I sold one of my 8008's on ebay a while
>  back "the CPU used in the Scelbi and Mark-8, before the Altair!" and got
>  $15 for it.  The chip collector niche is *much* smaller than even the tiny
>  computer collector niche.
>  
Did you advertise under the keyword "Gold". I think this is the key to selling
old chips. I agree that the chip collector niche is small. However there are
many more people that collect beautiful Gold objects. This is my target
market. 

Scrap value of your 8008 is less than 25 cents. At $15 you did very well. I
plan on starting with my gold 8080s and EPROM's, not the most collectable
stuff. My main interest is in doing better than scrap value. I agree these
chips are available in every scrapyard. These came out of mine. Computer
collectors know this, gold collectors don't. Researching your market
important.

Keywords are everything. I noticed that even you got 'Altair' in the title box
of the 8008.

Paxton


From Innfogra at aol.com  Sun Dec 13 18:05:44 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
Message-ID: <87104b8.36745658@aol.com>

Zane

Where is the list of the top Supercomputers?

Paxton


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sun Dec 13 18:20:21 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Does DECNET = DECNET?
In-Reply-To: <981213095927.2f000647@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: 

>Hmm - it looks like they do Phase IV, SET HOST, and FAL, which I think
>is all you need.
>
>It looks like they've only done extensive testing under VMS, so it's
>possible that some of their tools assume VMS-ism's not present under
>RSX.  But you won't know till you try!

I've spent a good chunk of the day trying to get this working, and finally
gave up and spent some time redoing my one VAX so it doesn't have to have
ALL the disks online when it is used.  The end result is as follows:

	VAX VMS 6.1 talks to Linux 2.0.34
	Linux 2.0.34 talks to VAX VMS 6.1

	VAX VMS 6.1 talks to RSX-11M 4.2
	RSX-11M 4.2 talks to VAX VMS 6.1

	Linux DOES NOT talk to RSX
	RSX DOES NOT talk to Linux

	When doing a 'set host' on RSX, Linux acks
	When doing a 'sethost' on Linux, RSX DOES NOT ack

I don't know if I'm reading 'tcpdump' correctly, but I was using it to
monitor network traffic, and it looks as if RSX is talking 'DECnet V4.0'
and VMS and Linux are talking 'DECnet V4.1'.

I even tried modifying in the kernel the 'segsize' and 'blksize' that Linux
is talking to match what RSX is using without any luck.  In fact I ran all
the tests above with that configuration.

Looks like my next step is to get ahold of the authors of Linux DECnet
software and see if they can give me any pointers.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From yowza at yowza.com  Sun Dec 13 18:18:32 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 Innfogra@aol.com wrote:

> Did you advertise under the keyword "Gold". I think this is the key to
> selling old chips. I agree that the chip collector niche is small.
> However there are many more people that collect beautiful Gold objects.
> This is my target market.

You mean you're going after the jewelry crowd?  That should be
interesting.  If I start seeing old women with big hair wearing 4004's
around their neck, I'll be happy being able to say "I knew Paxton when he
started this trend."

> Keywords are everything. I noticed that even you got 'Altair' in the
> title box of the 8008. 

Yes, and I did it without making any false claims, and included
information about the chips including their source and date codes to
ensure there was no misleading information.  So, it should be clear that
I've got nothing against "keywords", but there's a HUGE difference between
getting keywords into a description and being misleading once somebody
actually reads the description.

-- Doug



From rcini at msn.com  Sun Dec 13 08:17:45 1998
From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Posted Yesterday Evening
Message-ID: <001701be26f7$90a0fdc0$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>

Hello, all:

    Last night I posted the following to my Web site:

    -    10/83 Article from Byte re: Motorola Educational Computing Board

[  Rich Cini/WUGNET
[   ClubWin!/CW7
[   MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
[   Collector of "classic" computers
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/
<================   reply   separator  =================>






From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sun Dec 13 18:31:37 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
In-Reply-To: <87104b8.36745658@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

>Where is the list of the top Supercomputers?

Good question, I hit a link from slashdot last week, but didn't bother to
bookmark it.

		Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From marvin at rain.org  Sun Dec 13 18:28:06 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601 and the revolution
References: 
Message-ID: <36745B96.13B94A4B@rain.org>

Doug Yowza wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 Innfogra@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > It is too bad that Marvin's listing impacted you directly. Marvin was only
> > informing the community of something of interest. He is being a good
> > revolutionary. I appreciate that.
> 
> I like it.  Seller propaganda.  Marvin, you are the tool of the New Flea
> Market Capitalist!  You must resist!  We can help you come to the Bidder
> Resistance!  Help us break the shackles of oppressive ebay.  Burn, eBay,
> burn!

Look at it this way, pretty soon there will be so many items for auction
that only full time browsers will stand a chance of keeping up :).  Now that
you see the wisdom in what I am doing, when are you going to join us!!!


From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com  Sun Dec 13 18:31:46 1998
From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Does DECNET = DECNET?
Message-ID: <981213193146.2f0006ac@trailing-edge.com>

>>Hmm - it looks like they do Phase IV, SET HOST, and FAL, which I think
>>is all you need.
>>
>>It looks like they've only done extensive testing under VMS, so it's
>>possible that some of their tools assume VMS-ism's not present under
>>RSX.  But you won't know till you try!

>I've spent a good chunk of the day trying to get this working, and finally
>gave up and spent some time redoing my one VAX so it doesn't have to have
>ALL the disks online when it is used.  The end result is as follows:
>
>	VAX VMS 6.1 talks to Linux 2.0.34
>	Linux 2.0.34 talks to VAX VMS 6.1
>
>	VAX VMS 6.1 talks to RSX-11M 4.2
>	RSX-11M 4.2 talks to VAX VMS 6.1
>
>	Linux DOES NOT talk to RSX
>	RSX DOES NOT talk to Linux

Let's back up just a little bit, Zane.  If I understand your original
post, you want to use Linux/DECNET to move some files to and from
a RSX system, right?  If so, why not just move the RSX disk to the
VMS system, MOUNT it under VMS, use DECNET between the Linux
box and the VAX, and then move the disk back to the PDP-11 when
you're done?

(Note that RSX disks larger than 512 Mbytes may not be mountable
under VMS, due to a divergence between RSX, VMS, and IAS about how
to enlarge the ODS-1 cluster factor.  But disks smaller than 512
Mbytes are just plain old ODS-1 filesystems and VMS and RSX agree
about how to talk to these.)

Things are even better if the drive in question is dual ported -
that way you can have it physically attached to the VAX and the
PDP-11 at the same time (very handy for some development).

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 13 18:48:08 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
In-Reply-To:  from "Innfogra@aol.com" at Dec 13, 98 06:57:50 pm
Message-ID: 

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From Innfogra at aol.com  Sun Dec 13 19:03:37 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
Message-ID: <48a29397.367463e9@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/13/98 3:21:31 PM Pacific Standard Time,
dastar@ncal.verio.com writes:

> With regards specifically to the auction in question, the item was listed
>  as a "S100 BUS IMSAI ALTAIR Z80 EMULATOR".  This item has nothing to do
>  with emulating the S-100 bus.  That is deceptive.
>  
I agree that the listing is deceptive, poor English also. I doubt any court
would convict on the listings of the title box alone, they would rely on the
description to decide deception.

When I originally searched by category I got 50 pages to wade through. Like
most others I switched to keyword searches.  This makes keywords much more
important than the actual description. 

Lets take my gold 8080 for example. (It is over 10 years old so it is on
topic). While I would list it under CPUs my title would say something like
"Beautiful Gold Intel 8080 Microprocessor, Rare!

'Gold' and 'Intel' for the search engines. 'Beautiful' to get you to look at
the picture, a nice close-up larger than life size (with size disclaimer). The
quality of the photo is very important. It would be plugged into anti-stat
foam in a clear plastic box. I know some of the list would quibble over the
term 'Rare'. I have no real idea of the rarity. However after working with a
scrapper for years my guess is they 'are' rare.

My intended market, obviously is the jewelry collector or someone interested
in gold items, not a computer collector. Old gold electronics are very
attractive.

Whoever sold the emulator asked themselves who might buy this item and how do
I connect with them. They obviously thought that people searching for S100,
Imsais and Altairs would be interested. You don't have much room in the title
box. In my example above I might not have room for 'microprocessor'. It is
unfortunate that English gets left behind in the process. This also comes from
the poor job that schools today are teaching English. 

The unfortunate part of this is that poor English is becoming more acceptable.
The Internet and it's use of keywords only contributes to this.

Paxton



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Sun Dec 13 19:29:08 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
In-Reply-To: <48a29397.367463e9@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 Innfogra@aol.com wrote:

> Lets take my gold 8080 for example. (It is over 10 years old so it is on
> topic). While I would list it under CPUs my title would say something like
> "Beautiful Gold Intel 8080 Microprocessor, Rare!
<...>
> foam in a clear plastic box. I know some of the list would quibble over the
> term 'Rare'. I have no real idea of the rarity. However after working with a
> scrapper for years my guess is they 'are' rare.

Rare?  I have probably 50 8080's manufactured before 1980 in my collection
alone.  Rare is definitely unwarranted, as is the case with most ebay
auctions that scream "RARE!!!!!" in their headings.

> Whoever sold the emulator asked themselves who might buy this item and how do
> I connect with them. They obviously thought that people searching for S100,
> Imsais and Altairs would be interested. You don't have much room in the title
> box. In my example above I might not have room for 'microprocessor'. It is
> unfortunate that English gets left behind in the process. This also comes from
> the poor job that schools today are teaching English. 

No, I think this comes more from a lack of integrity.  He also implied it
was an S100 emulator.  Like I said, this item had nothing to do with
emulating an S-100 bus, and didn't really have much to do with an Altair
or IMSAI for that matter either.  Trying to find some way to justify it is
like trying to find some way to say Clinton didn't lie under oath.  You
can't, so accept the facts.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From pechter at monmouth.com  Sun Dec 13 19:33:51 1998
From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Anyone know what this is for?: AT&T ext SCSI drive
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981213110149.2dffcd1c@intellistar.net> from Joe at "Dec 13, 98 11:01:49 am"
Message-ID: <199812140134.UAA34278@monmouth.com>

> John,
> 
>   I think you may be right. There's a co-axial connector on the 3B2 that's
> exactly the same as the one on the drive and there's no power switch on the
> drive. I KNEW I had seen those connectors somewhere before. I have a couple
> of 3B2s but I don't have any docs for them and I've never fired them up.
> The drive has the standard Amphenol SCSI connector. There's no connector
> like that on the 3B2 only a couple of uunmarked ribbon cable connectors.
> Does the drive connect to one of them or is there a card for the 3B2 that
> has a SCSI port?  If it does connect to one of the ribbon cable connectors,
> do you have a diagram of the cable so I could make one?
> 
>    Joe
> 

There's a SCSI card for the 3b2 series... I think the 3b2600 was the 
first machine that built in the scsi as standard... The 400 and 310
all used MFM drives standard but had a SCSI option...

Bill


From KFergason at aol.com  Sun Dec 13 19:39:47 1998
From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 12/13/98 4:29:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
healyzh@aracnet.com writes:

> >Where is the list of the top Supercomputers?
>  
>  Good question, I hit a link from slashdot last week, but didn't bother to
>  bookmark it.

www.netlib.org

Kelly


From Innfogra at aol.com  Sun Dec 13 19:38:11 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 12/13/98 4:52:35 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes:

> 
>  There is only one place where an 8008 should end up. In a circuit that 
>  needs one. Like the frontpanel controller of my 11/34. Like the control 
>  logic board of my Beehive. Like a Scelbi. Or a dozen more machines.

Personally I agree with you. 

>  
>  If they all get turned into jewellery, where they're going to get ruined 
>  by static, then where do us computer collectors get our spares from?

Don't worry, they won't all be made into jewelry. 
>  
>  There are already some chips that are _very_ difficult to find. The Intel 
>  8271 disk controller (used in older Acorn machines, up to and including 
>  the BBC). The LM379 audio amplifier (which is used in hard disks as a 
>  servo driver). I don't want other chips to be hard to find unnecessarily...

I would like to see a list of chips that are in short supply. I have kept many
that I wondered if there was a market. 

When you work with a scrapper you go through tons and tons of circuit cards.
It is hard to tell what is valuable and what should be saved. Argueing to save
the gold chips is impossible. Almost of the chips go to scrap, gold reclaim.
Intel scraps their chips in house. They don't let them get out to the market.
It was hard to get old multibus stuff from them. We ballooned up to 16,000 Sq.
Ft. before we broke up, in good part because of arguments about what to keep
or scrap. It is hard to pay the rent on that kind of space.
>  
>  > 
>  > Scrap value of your 8008 is less than 25 cents. At $15 you did very well.
> I
>  
>  The gold might be worth $0.25 (actually, I doubt it). But what about the 
>  value to somebody who needs this chip to get an old machine running?
>  
>  > plan on starting with my gold 8080s and EPROM's, not the most collectable
>  > stuff. My main interest is in doing better than scrap value. I agree
these
>  
>  _My_ main interest is keeping as many classics working as possible. And 
>  this means keeping spare parts available.

Are you willing to pay for shipping and storage. I can;t afford to anymore.

Paxton
 


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sun Dec 13 19:46:14 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Does DECNET = DECNET?
In-Reply-To: <981213193146.2f0006ac@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: 

>Let's back up just a little bit, Zane.  If I understand your original
>post, you want to use Linux/DECNET to move some files to and from
>a RSX system, right?  If so, why not just move the RSX disk to the
>VMS system, MOUNT it under VMS, use DECNET between the Linux
>box and the VAX, and then move the disk back to the PDP-11 when
>you're done?

Um, lack of knowledge, and not finding out how to do that from the manuals
I've got :^)  I have figured out how to copy files to the PDP-11 from the
VAX, so I should be able to get the files transfered over without any
problem.  I'd just prefer to be able to have the PDP-11 and the Linux box
talk to each other, as it's simpler.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From Innfogra at aol.com  Sun Dec 13 19:53:05 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: DG 1210 & 8K core memory availaible
Message-ID: 

While trying to get to the SOL in the back of the warehouse I came across a
spare Data General card set. It is a 1210 CPU card and an 8K core memory card.
I believe they would work if plugged in. It was a spare board set for a bunch
of systems that we scrapped about 8 years ago.

This is just a two card set in an anti stat box. Written on the box is
"Replacement value $12,000, 1977" 

I am open to all offers.

Paxton


From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Sun Dec 13 20:12:34 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: tektronics 503 scope
References: 
Message-ID: <36747410.54816772@bigfoot.com>

I was able to locate a tube/valve for my old Tek 561A before I sold it and luckily
my solid state 454 and 453 have been chugging along fine. Of course I use these for
more than computer work so they work as a general purpose scope very well. When
it's time to trace that tricky signal the HP digital comes out. Luckily all I
needed for it was a cable which I found after 3 months of searching different
sources. Of all places - eBay. The seller had his difital scope stolen but they
left the accessories. You better believe I asked what the serial was of his stolen
unti to make sure that it wasn't mine.

Tony Duell wrote:

> > for originals or copies is the tricky part. Many tubes(valves) are still
> > available new as NOS or rebuilds or newly made. I even have problems on a new
> > digital scope finding some things from HP.
>
> It never fails to amaze me that I can get spare valves for a unit made 50
> years ago (or more), but can't get a new ASIC for a machine made 5 years
> ago....
>
> Sad but true...
>
> -tony



From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com  Sun Dec 13 20:39:47 1998
From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Does DECNET = DECNET?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote:

> >Let's back up just a little bit, Zane.  If I understand your original
> >post, you want to use Linux/DECNET to move some files to and from
> >a RSX system, right?  If so, why not just move the RSX disk to the
> >VMS system, MOUNT it under VMS, use DECNET between the Linux
> >box and the VAX, and then move the disk back to the PDP-11 when
> >you're done?
> 
> Um, lack of knowledge, and not finding out how to do that from the manuals
> I've got :^)  I have figured out how to copy files to the PDP-11 from the
> VAX, so I should be able to get the files transfered over without any
> problem.  I'd just prefer to be able to have the PDP-11 and the Linux box
> talk to each other, as it's simpler.

Not to mention for the pure hack value...



From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com  Sun Dec 13 21:18:44 1998
From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
Message-ID: <981213221844.2f0006c0@trailing-edge.com>

> No, I think this comes more from a lack of integrity.  He also implied it
> was an S100 emulator.  Like I said, this item had nothing to do with
> emulating an S-100 bus, and didn't really have much to do with an Altair
> or IMSAI for that matter either.

Let's see - if you wanted to emulate early S-100 stuff, I guess this'd
be the way that it'd go:

1.  Find an ad in the back of a 1975-1978 BYTE magazine for a neat
memory board.

2.  Place order for board.

3.  Begin assembling board.  Supplier gives you low-grade chips; you must
test all 2102's by hand before installing.

4.  Plug board into system.  Front panel freezes up.

5.  Hack around the front panel, changing RC constants in one-shots.

6.  Discover you have to cut a couple traces on your CPU board, wire
in some JK Flip-Flops to synchronize the timing to what the memory
board expects.

7.  Congratulations!  After months of time, and weeks of effort, you now
have enough memory to play Trek under MBASIC!

OK, OK, I'm exaggerating a little bit.  By the late 70's there were some
pretty solid S-100 based systems out there, if you were willing to
spend the bucks to get the good stuff (i.e. Godbout/Compupro/Cromemco/usw.)
But if you played it cheap, you got what you paid for!

Tim.


From bill_r at inetnebr.com  Sun Dec 13 21:59:36 1998
From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s
In-Reply-To: <36744142.AB5B744E@rain.org>
References:  <36744142.AB5B744E@rain.org>
Message-ID: <367d8bb9.680908965@insight>

I can see Doug's point, but I would also have to agree that it's great
just to be able to look at the pictures of some of the stuff.  I'll
admit that I've seen things I placed bids on that I otherwise would have
missed because I don't patrol eBay religiously, and tend to feel that
many of those who take the time to do so are probably speculators rather
than casual collectors.  I will say, though, that there have been
several items I would have bid on, but refrained from doing so because
someone on this list was the current high bidder.  If they put in a bid
and then allowed themselves to be outbid by two or three people, I
figure they're probably not all that interested and were just hoping to
get something "for cheap", and I might put in a bid.  If I see them
getting back in the race towards the end of the auction, I'll usually
stop bidding.  I for one hope you will continue pointing out interesting
items to this list, wherever you see them.  I hope Doug understands
where I'm coming from; I consider him a friend, and have given him
several tips when I see things on eBay he's interested in, and he's done
the same for me.

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 14:35:46 -0800, Marvin  wrote:

>Doug Yowza wrote:
>> 
>> Advertising an auction is not the same as advertising a Usenet ad, for
>> example, in which the advantage goes to those who did their homework and
>> legwork earlier than the others.  In the auction case, you've simply
>> raised the price of the item.
>
>Doug, another thing just crossed my mind.  Anyone who looks at the bid items
>will see your name (assuming you are bidding on it :) ), and it would seem
>like a good thing on your part to bid late, as that wouldn't give those that
>want to see what you are up to any advance notice on what might be
>interesting.  




      -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com)
       http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer
       Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.



From bill_r at inetnebr.com  Sun Dec 13 22:09:45 1998
From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: tektronics 503 scope
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <367e8e7c.681615451@insight>

So, what's your (or anyone else's, for that matter) opinion on the Tek
465B?  I bought a used one as a Christmas gift for my partner; with two
probes, an original manual, and shipping, it was around $600.  It
appears to work fine except that when I connect the probes to the
square-wave calibration output, the horizontal portions of the waves
seem to be much "thicker" vertically than they should be.  The vertical
portions appear to be reasonably sharp, however.  I've tried turning
down the intensity and twiddling the focus and astigmatism adjustments,
but it's not as sharp as I would like to see.  I can probably trade it
for another one, but it means more shipping and possibly late for Xmas.
Anyone know if there's another adjustment I'm missing?  I've only got
the user's guide - not the service manual.  

On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 22:00:34 +0000 (GMT), ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony
Duell) wrote:
>
>One thing. A good second-hand scope (like a Tektronix or an HP) will cost 
>about the same as a new low-end unit. There is no comparison in the 
>quality, though - the Tek/HP is the much better instrument. And it's 
>probably more reliable as well. I have had plenty of problems with some 
>makes which have horrible triggering, non-linear timebase, etc. 


      -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com)
       http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer
       Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.



From yowza at yowza.com  Sun Dec 13 22:23:04 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s
In-Reply-To: <367d8bb9.680908965@insight>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Bill Richman wrote:

> stop bidding.  I for one hope you will continue pointing out interesting
> items to this list, wherever you see them.  I hope Doug understands
> where I'm coming from; I consider him a friend, and have given him
> several tips when I see things on eBay he's interested in, and he's done
> the same for me.

And I appreciate it.  In fact, I've pointed out the very item in question
to somebody I though might want it more than me, but I did it via private
email.  I wouldn't post it to a mailing list with wide distribution.  What
if one of the known dealers or speculators who lurk on this list was the
one who decided it was "undervalued."

Wait a minute.  Who's high bidder right now?  Why it's Dealer Bob.  Hi,
Bob.  I thought you were only into Altairs :-)

-- Doug




From yowza at yowza.com  Sun Dec 13 23:15:48 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:

> There is only one place where an 8008 should end up. In a circuit that 
> needs one. Like the frontpanel controller of my 11/34. Like the control 
> logic board of my Beehive. Like a Scelbi. Or a dozen more machines.

Ah, the Beehive.  I gave Sam a cool one from 1974 or so with a huge
detachable keyboard and joystick.  I love their logo, but I'm not sure I
get it: a bee in diapers?  The bee and beehive are associated with Utah,
the Beehive State, but why diapers?

-- Doug



From ddameron at earthlink.net  Sun Dec 13 23:36:19 1998
From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s
Message-ID: <199812140536.VAA22162@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

At 12:30 PM 12/13/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Interesting item on ebay.  I hadn't heard of it but it looks like it is an
>interesting part of early computer history! The URL is:
>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=47803992
>
>
I do remember seeing ads for it (Edmund scientific?), if I can find what it
cost then, I will post it.

I just checked, the bid is now $76, too much for me. I have actually managed
to buy no computer items yet on ebay, did get within 1 minute on one item.

I would be interested in what the minivac did? There are 6 relays, one pole
maybe used as a latch? I forgot what it takes in relays for a 1 bit adder, a
single relay coil can be an exclusive or, foe example.

My point is that I can still find relays for US$1 each, so building
something like this isn't out of the question. The "speculation" value is
less interesting to me... if I had one, under what circumstances would I
sell it? Besides, a homebrew could be modified/improved without the
speculation factor.
-Dave



From ddameron at earthlink.net  Sun Dec 13 23:36:21 1998
From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: replacement parts, was tektronics 503 scope
Message-ID: <199812140536.VAA22203@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

At 06:44 PM 12/13/98 +0000, Tony wrote:
>> for originals or copies is the tricky part. Many tubes(valves) are still
>> available new as NOS or rebuilds or newly made. I even have problems on a new
>> digital scope finding some things from HP.
>
>It never fails to amaze me that I can get spare valves for a unit made 50 
>years ago (or more), but can't get a new ASIC for a machine made 5 years 
>ago....
>
>Sad but true...
>
Yes.
A few hundred valves/tube types I quess would be plenty for radios, TV's
computers, audio, scopes, etc. Including octal types which go back to the
1930's. Am ignoring the series string types in later tube TV's, such as (In
the US) "38qzy", etc, and CRT's.

I quess one could do the same with ic's with the 74 and 74ls series, even
with a few mos (microprocessors) parts thrown in. Even with transistors - a
2N2222 can go in many places. Not anymore...
-Dave



From gregorym at cadvision.com  Sun Dec 13 22:53:08 1998
From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Comterm Hyperion - Boot disk?
Message-ID: <367499B4.7F8F82D3@cadvision.com>

Hi. I recently acquired a Hyperion "portable" PC - Mac-influenced, 8086,
dual 5.25 floppies, built in 4" amber monitor. I can't seem to get it to
boot, however. When I power it up, I get a flashing cursor, and the
system tries both drives. Then I get a "DISK FAULT" error on screen.
I've tried various versions of DOS, from 2.1 to 3.3, with the same
result.

Does the Hyperion require an earlier version of DOS, or a customized
version? Or, do I just have a machine with defunct floppy drives?

Any help much appreciated.

Mark Gregory



From yowza at yowza.com  Sun Dec 13 23:51:51 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Comterm Hyperion - Boot disk?
In-Reply-To: <367499B4.7F8F82D3@cadvision.com>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Mark Gregory wrote:

> Hi. I recently acquired a Hyperion "portable" PC - Mac-influenced, 8086,

Mac-influenced?  You must be talking about somebody named Mac, because
the Hyperion was introduced two years *before* Apple's Mac.

> dual 5.25 floppies, built in 4" amber monitor. I can't seem to get it to
> boot, however. When I power it up, I get a flashing cursor, and the
> system tries both drives. Then I get a "DISK FAULT" error on screen.
> I've tried various versions of DOS, from 2.1 to 3.3, with the same
> result.
> 
> Does the Hyperion require an earlier version of DOS, or a customized
> version? Or, do I just have a machine with defunct floppy drives?

It does want a custom version of DOS (1.x is the version I have).  The
Hyperion is one of the DOS-compatible machines as opposed to a
PC-compatible, so you can't use PC-DOS.

If nobody else offers floppies, let me know, but I'm terrible about
getting that kind of stuff out sometimes (BTW, does the other person I
promised Hyperion floppies still need them?).

-- Doug



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Sun Dec 13 23:59:14 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:

> Ah, the Beehive.  I gave Sam a cool one from 1974 or so with a huge
> detachable keyboard and joystick.  I love their logo, but I'm not sure I
> get it: a bee in diapers?  The bee and beehive are associated with Utah,
> the Beehive State, but why diapers?

I seem to remember that costing me $10 so "gave" is inaccurate :)

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From jpero at pop.cgocable.net  Sun Dec 13 19:16:54 1998
From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Comterm Hyperion - Boot disk?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <367499B4.7F8F82D3@cadvision.com>
Message-ID: <199812140611.BAA22050@mail.cgocable.net>

> Date:          Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:51:51 -0600 (CST)
> Reply-to:      classiccmp@u.washington.edu
> From:          Doug Yowza 
> To:            "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
> Subject:       Re: Comterm Hyperion - Boot disk?
> X-To:          Discussion re-collecting of classic computers 

> On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Mark Gregory wrote:
> 
> > Hi. I recently acquired a Hyperion "portable" PC - Mac-influenced, 8086,
> 
> Mac-influenced?  You must be talking about somebody named Mac, because
> the Hyperion was introduced two years *before* Apple's Mac.

It does looks similar to Lisa except it's portable in size.

> > dual 5.25 floppies, built in 4" amber monitor. I can't seem to get it to
> > boot, however. When I power it up, I get a flashing cursor, and the
> > system tries both drives. Then I get a "DISK FAULT" error on screen.
> > I've tried various versions of DOS, from 2.1 to 3.3, with the same
> > result.

Have you tried to create 320K bootable disks with any dos 3.x and 2.x 
and even 5.x?  I had no problems booting on 360K disks.

> It does want a custom version of DOS (1.x is the version I have).  The
> Hyperion is one of the DOS-compatible machines as opposed to a
> PC-compatible, so you can't use PC-DOS.

True.. use well behaved software so that limits your choices lot.

> -- Doug

Oh, Hyperions can be expanded to full 640K, by external bare small 
circuit board on that 3 row pin connector.  (what's the name for that 
type of connector, for example: DB-9?)
 
email: jpero@cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.


From yowza at yowza.com  Mon Dec 14 00:24:36 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s
In-Reply-To: <199812140536.VAA22162@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, dave dameron wrote:

> I do remember seeing ads for it (Edmund scientific?), if I can find what it
> cost then, I will post it.

It was made by Scientific Development Corp.  The ads appeared in Science
Newsletter (which later became Science News).  $135.  There was also a
Minivac 6010, but I don't have more information about it.

> I would be interested in what the minivac did? There are 6 relays, one pole
> maybe used as a latch? I forgot what it takes in relays for a 1 bit adder, a
> single relay coil can be an exclusive or, foe example.

Yup, there are six DPDT relays, so you can make a 3-bit adder, logic
gates, etc.  There's also a very cool 16-position motorized dial that can
be used for both input (manual control) and output (motor control), as
well as a means to clock sequential logic: a real computer, in short.

> My point is that I can still find relays for US$1 each, so building
> something like this isn't out of the question. The "speculation" value is
> less interesting to me... if I had one, under what circumstances would I
> sell it? Besides, a homebrew could be modified/improved without the
> speculation factor.

I had planned to build one myself until I recently bought one.  Contact me
by private email with suggestions for trades for a copy of the manuals so
you can build your own!

-- Doug



From yowza at yowza.com  Mon Dec 14 00:27:51 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Sam Ismail wrote:

> > Ah, the Beehive.  I gave Sam a cool one from 1974 or so with a huge
> > detachable keyboard and joystick.  I love their logo, but I'm not sure I
> > get it: a bee in diapers?  The bee and beehive are associated with Utah,
> > the Beehive State, but why diapers?
> 
> I seem to remember that costing me $10 so "gave" is inaccurate :)

Sorry, I'm getting used to ClintonSpeak.  Define "gave."  I was truthful
in saying I gave it you.  If you feel that I mislead the public by
neglecting to mention what you gave me in turn, then go ahead and impeach
me :-)

-- Doug



From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com  Mon Dec 14 00:44:43 1998
From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: SIMM Mods
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981213224443.009697c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com>

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From jpero at pop.cgocable.net  Sun Dec 13 19:52:48 1998
From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: SIMM Mods
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981213224443.009697c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com>
Message-ID: <199812140646.BAA02462@mail.cgocable.net>

> Date:          Sun, 13 Dec 1998 22:44:43 -0800
> Reply-to:      classiccmp@u.washington.edu
> From:          Bruce Lane 
> To:            "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
> Subject:       SIMM Mods

Bruce scratched out on screen...

> 	I seem to recall that there's some electrical surgery one can do to modify a standard 30-pin SIMM to make it look like an IBM SIMM. However, I can't seem to find the reference anywhere.
> 
> 
> 	Has anyone else run across this? Thanks in advance.

That,

I'm interested too!  I have one that needs like this, XT 286.
 
email: jpero@cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Mon Dec 14 00:48:13 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Sam Ismail wrote:
> 
> > > Ah, the Beehive.  I gave Sam a cool one from 1974 or so with a huge
> > > detachable keyboard and joystick.  I love their logo, but I'm not sure I
> > > get it: a bee in diapers?  The bee and beehive are associated with Utah,
> > > the Beehive State, but why diapers?
> > 
> > I seem to remember that costing me $10 so "gave" is inaccurate :)
> 
> Sorry, I'm getting used to ClintonSpeak.  Define "gave."  I was truthful
> in saying I gave it you.  If you feel that I mislead the public by
> neglecting to mention what you gave me in turn, then go ahead and impeach
> me :-)

I'm looking at the manual for this thing.  It was a pretty righteous
terminal in its day.  Maximum transmission rate is 9600 baud.  It had a
video out so you could hook up an external monitor.  According to the
schematic, the biggest chip on the I/O board is a TR1402A or 1602A (it has
both numbers written on it).  I have no idea what this is.  But there's no
8008 in there.  I think I checked it out when I first got it, and you
would've tried to get more than $10 out of me if it did I'm sure. ;)

The full name of the company that made this is Beehive Medical
Electronics.  The terminal is called a MiniBee 4--mini my ass, this thing
is bigger than a TRS-80 Model III.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From Innfogra at aol.com  Mon Dec 14 01:20:41 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Comterm Hyperion - Boot disk?
Message-ID: <8a7436d6.3674bc49@aol.com>

Looking at the June 83 ad for the Hyperion I noticed that it has 320K drives
instead of 360K. If I remember right the 320K format is 7 sector not 8 sector
drives. 

I propose an experiment even though I too, believe it takes a special version
of DOS. Get an old PC and format a DOS disk at the 320K format using ver 2.11.
Transfer the system and see what happens.

Paxton


From Innfogra at aol.com  Mon Dec 14 01:20:42 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: First PC ??
Message-ID: <43ea1835.3674bc4a@aol.com>

In the 386 issue of PC Magazine, May 30, 1989, there is a two page spread
(p98&99) called "Another Kind of Memory." It is a timeline from 1890 to 1990
of historical milestones on the path to computerdom. Of special interest to
this group they list the Kenbak PC, 1971 as the first personal computer. The
Xerox Alto was the first workstation with a mouse, 1972. Mits Altair featured
on cover of Popular Electronics, July 1975. 

They make no claims that the Altair was the first personal computer, only that
it was on the cover of a popular magazine.

Does anyone out there have a KenbaK PC?

Paxton


From scottk5 at ibm.net  Mon Dec 14 01:30:15 1998
From: scottk5 at ibm.net (scottk5@ibm.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: SIMM Mods
References: <3.0.5.32.19981213224443.009697c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com>
Message-ID: <3674BE87.10F5@ibm.net>

Bruce Lane wrote:
> 
> I seem to recall that there's some electrical surgery one can do to
> modify a standard 30-pin SIMM to make it look like an IBM SIMM.
> However, I can't seem to find the reference anywhere.
> 
> Has anyone else run across this? Thanks in advance.
> 


Peter Wendt has some information on that on his PS2 page, try:

http://members.aol.com/mcapage0/memory01.htm

And there are some links at the end of the article from people who
reported their experiebce with the SIMM mods, like:

http://members.aol.com/mcapage0/memory04.htm

Hope this helps.

Kirk Scott



From jpero at pop.cgocable.net  Sun Dec 13 20:46:57 1998
From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: SIMM Mods
In-Reply-To: <3674BE87.10F5@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <199812140741.CAA16827@mail.cgocable.net>

> Date:          Mon, 14 Dec 1998 02:30:15 -0500
> Reply-to:      classiccmp@u.washington.edu
> From:          scottk5@ibm.net
> To:            "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
> Subject:       Re: SIMM Mods

> Bruce Lane wrote:
> > 
> > I seem to recall that there's some electrical surgery one can do to
> > modify a standard 30-pin SIMM to make it look like an IBM SIMM.
> > However, I can't seem to find the reference anywhere.
> > 
> > Has anyone else run across this? Thanks in advance.

Ding!

Have ever looked into Peter's website?  They're for 72pin simms which 
is very useful for this hacking which I have done twice.

I do have the pinouts for both 30 pin simms clone and ps/2 type.
But!  I'm confused by bit different naming converention.
If anyone able to clear this up I would be very happy to wire up
the clone simms to PS/2 types then I'm happy!

email: jpero@cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.


From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Mon Dec 14 01:52:06 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: SIMM Mods
References: <3.0.5.32.19981213224443.009697c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com>
Message-ID: <3674C3A4.BC5139C9@bigfoot.com>

The only one I can reall is a text online to build SIMMs for the L40SX, but it may be the one you are looking for. It's on the PS/2 Page at http://members.tripod.com/ps2page/  under the
links I believe, or in the links at the Microchannel Entusiasts Page (pretty sure it's there).

Bruce Lane wrote:

> I seem to recall that there's some electrical surgery one can do to modify a standard 30-pin SIMM to make it look like an IBM SIMM. However, I can't seem to find the reference anywhere.
>
> Has anyone else run across this? Thanks in advance.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
> http://www.bluefeathertech.com
> Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com
> SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905)
> "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."



From hansp at digiweb.com  Mon Dec 14 01:03:37 1998
From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: single instance machines
References: <002501be23d1$e6bf8240$0a010bce@francois>
Message-ID: <3674B849.4B55017E@digiweb.com>

Francois wrote:
> 
> How about the exelvision EXL100? is that a single instance on the list?
> I also have the IR joysticks.
> Francois

Sorry, I have a couple of those ;-)

_---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___-
Hans B Pufal                          Comprehensive Computer Catalogue
             


From hansp at digiweb.com  Mon Dec 14 01:05:29 1998
From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: single instance machines
References: <002501be23d1$e6bf8240$0a010bce@francois>
Message-ID: <3674B8B9.9A709DFE@digiweb.com>

OK, how about an ICT 1301 or Telefunken TR4 mainfrmaes form the sixties.

Not my personal property , part of the ACONIT collection.

Regards

_---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___-
Hans B Pufal                          Comprehensive Computer Catalogue
             


From jpero at pop.cgocable.net  Sun Dec 13 21:17:45 1998
From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: SIMM Mods
In-Reply-To: <3674C3A4.BC5139C9@bigfoot.com>
Message-ID: <199812140811.DAA25564@mail.cgocable.net>

> Date:          Mon, 14 Dec 1998 01:52:06 -0600
> Reply-to:      classiccmp@u.washington.edu
> From:          Russ Blakeman 
> To:            "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
> Subject:       Re: SIMM Mods

> The only one I can reall is a text online to build SIMMs for the L40SX, but it may be the one you are looking for. It's on the PS/2 Page at http://members.tripod.com/ps2page/  under the
> links I believe, or in the links at the Microchannel Entusiasts Page (pretty sure it's there).

Hitting that little bell again...

The original request is about the clone 30pins into ps/2 type 30 pin 
simms.  Those originals are very hard to get especially those 1MB 
types and in my case, both 256k and 1MB simms.

 
email: jpero@cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.


From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca  Mon Dec 14 02:17:17 1998
From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <19981212.220249.58.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote:

> ANother cool Data-20 product was the Z-80 VideoPAK.  This added a Z-80
> cpu, and an 80-column display to the C-64.  It was supposed to run 
> CP/M also.  I also have one of these as well (thanks Doug!), but no
> software.  Still looking.

Do you have the power supply for it?  I have one of these as well (I
believe we talked about it before) but my C64 won't power up when it's
plugged in, and there's a plug for a power supply in the back.  I need to
know voltage and polarity.

I got a cassette tape with the unit, and side A is supposed to be for C64
and side B for VIC-20.  I've not checked what's on it.  The cassette has
the DATA-20 logo on it, so it definitely relates to this unit.

Another interesting unit is the B.I.-80 80 Column Display cartridge from
Batteries Included.  It works well, and includes BASIC 4.0!

-- 
Doug Spence
ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca
http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/



From yowza at yowza.com  Mon Dec 14 02:17:52 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: First PC ??
In-Reply-To: <43ea1835.3674bc4a@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 Innfogra@aol.com wrote:

> In the 386 issue of PC Magazine, May 30, 1989, there is a two page spread
> (p98&99) called "Another Kind of Memory." It is a timeline from 1890 to 1990
> of historical milestones on the path to computerdom. Of special interest to
> this group they list the Kenbak PC, 1971 as the first personal computer.

I believe the Kenbak claim to "first pc" came as the result of a contest
held by TCM in Boston.  I don't remember what their criteria was, but I
think it had to be nationally advertised, for one.

Before calling anything the "first pc", you need to first define "pc." 

We generally agree here that by no sensible definition can the Altair be
called the "first pc." Maybe the Kenbak was the first transistorized
computer that was nationally advertised for under $1000, I dunno.

Does that mean the 1961 relay-based minivac, for example, isn't a "pc"? 
Maybe it isn't a computer.  It depends on who you ask.  Personally, I'm
more interested in the rich and varied forms of computers than calling one
"the first." 

I'm also interested in "personal" in trying to understand how we got to
where we are today.  To me, the early attempts to get "normal" people to
*understand and experiment* with computers on their own is just as
important as the role played by cheap microcomputers and the wide variety
of microcomputer software that made machines *useful* to individuals. 

-- Doug



From native-sun at usa.net  Mon Dec 14 03:28:01 1998
From: native-sun at usa.net (native-sun@usa.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: ebay - PS-2 owners take note
In-Reply-To: <36745B96.13B94A4B@rain.org>
References: 
Message-ID: 

Hi- Out of lurk mode to plug an item I have on eBay - an MCLA8110, new in
box, microchannel ethernet card. Just in time for Xmas!
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=48852824 Enjoy! -Jim

>Doug Yowza wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 Innfogra@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> > It is too bad that Marvin's listing impacted you directly. Marvin was only
>> > informing the community of something of interest. He is being a good
>> > revolutionary. I appreciate that.
>>
>> I like it.  Seller propaganda.  Marvin, you are the tool of the New Flea
>> Market Capitalist!  You must resist!  We can help you come to the Bidder
>> Resistance!  Help us break the shackles of oppressive ebay.  Burn, eBay,
>> burn!
>
>Look at it this way, pretty soon there will be so many items for auction
>that only full time browsers will stand a chance of keeping up :).  Now that
>you see the wisdom in what I am doing, when are you going to join us!!!

 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      mailto:heavy@ctesc.net Jim Weiler mailto:native-sun@usa.net
         http://home.talkcity.com/HardDiskDr/YaCCCht/index.html
       http://home.talkcity.com/TechnologyWay/heavyside/index.html
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 05:08:08 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: 24x80 Standard? (was: Re: HX20)
In-Reply-To: <19981211203148.103.qmail@brouhaha.com>
References: <199812111558.PAA06078@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>	(Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de)
Message-ID: <199812141009.KAA05435@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > So a 40x12 or a 80x24 similar gives a 'good' view (Just for us
> > ol'apple freaks, didn't the APPLE ][ 40x24 display look _very_
> > clumbsy ?

> Well, maybe so, but I'm glad they *didn't* go with 40x12.

> 40 characters was chosen because it was the most that a typical television
> (not monitor) in 1976 could display legibly.

64 by 20 would also have been a good choice - almost
the same ratio than 80x24 but with 256 lines (512 pixles)
still acceptable within TV limits.

(or 64x24 which is with 8x3 somewhat slim, but still
acceptable since within 33% of 5 by 2 (thats another
thumprule for characterdesign))

> And even so, most color
> televisions still had color fringes on the characters.

this is more to be put on the poor colour logic and
the low quality modulators used (and of course on NTSC :)

Gruss
Hans

--
Traue keinem Menschen der 5 Tage blutet und immer noch nicht tod ist.


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 05:14:03 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: Advertising
In-Reply-To: <367419DB.761E7B4D@rain.org>
Message-ID: <199812141015.KAA07200@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> > > > > Nice the Nice :) I just can't get the connection to
> > > > > the Item title: 'S100 BUS IMSAI ALTAIR Z80 EMULATOR'
> > > > > Is there any S100 stuff included ? Or anything form /
> > > > > for an Altair or IMSAI ? Or at least a good story ?
> > > > C'mon, Hans!  Get with it.  This is just a cheezy way to dupe people into
> > > > thinking this thing is worth more than it really is.
> > > Nope, this is just a way of putting a value on it!
> > What!?  Hardly!  This is an unfortunate justification of tactics used to
> > deceive ignorant buyers.  Its misleading, pure and simple, and is meant to
> > artificially inflate the value of an otherwise uninteresting artifact.

> First of all, let the buyer beware; ANYONE buying ANYTHING should keep that
> in mind. Money makes a really good educator ... at least for some of us.

As long as they are able to pay the learning fee :)

> Second, you are confusing deceit with advertising (although some may argue
> they are one and the same :). ) If someone sees something and decides to
> either buy or not buy, that is their decision.  However the key word here is
> "see".  I am not a fan of emulators, but for those that are, this might be
> something they are interested in.  This could also be a way for someone who
> didn't realize emulators are out there to find out about them.

In fact, as far as I can see, this isn't an emulator, its
a Z80 ICE, and nothing more than that, so using buzzwords
like Altair, Imsai and S100 are just ... hmm lets say free
flowing brainstorming ...

> Finally, my comment about putting a value on it was about putting it on
> ebay.  Quite possible I misread the meanings of the other comments :)!

Shure, I read it that was. Only the way of 'advertising' is anoying.

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 06:31:25 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: 2650 (was:Type list (was: single instance machines))
In-Reply-To: <000201be2537$dcf49cc0$2cf438cb@a.davie>
References: <199812111835.SAA21513@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <199812141133.LAA02327@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> Speaking of which, I have just found the manual for the commercial 2650
> board.
> It's the SBC 2650 (I'm guessing SBC is "Single Board Computer" - I won't
> even bother looking it up to confirm!).    Includes functional description,
> circuit diagram, assembly instructions, fault finding software, etc etc.
> Wahoo!!
> Money is a great motivator ;)

Great, juust tell me the $$$ (or even $$$$$) you want.

Gruss
H.
(Hope I never told them for what the symbol $ is used in this context)

--
Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh.
H.Achternbusch


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 06:44:16 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: single instance machines
In-Reply-To: <3674B8B9.9A709DFE@digiweb.com>
Message-ID: <199812141145.LAA07669@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> OK, how about an ICT 1301 or Telefunken TR4 mainfrmaes form the sixties.

TR4 or TR440 would be nice to see again :)

> Not my personal property , part of the ACONIT collection.

ACONIT ?

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From fauradon at pclink.com  Mon Dec 14 06:12:29 1998
From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: single instance machines
Message-ID: <001001be275b$061502a0$aee7fea9@fauradon>

I knew that ;)
I just forgot for a few minutes.
Then I gues I just have mainstream machines. Except for my Dyna Micro but it
is bare of components so I guess it doesn't really count.
Francois

>Francois wrote:
>>
>> How about the exelvision EXL100? is that a single instance on the list?
>> I also have the IR joysticks.
>> Francois
>
>Sorry, I have a couple of those ;-)
>
>_---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___-
>Hans B Pufal                          Comprehensive Computer Catalogue
>             
>



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 07:07:10 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:12 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: <199812112208.RAA01642@monmouth.com>
References: <199812111558.PAA06084@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from Hans Franke at "Dec 11, 98 05:01:38 pm"
Message-ID: <199812141208.MAA12372@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > > The moral of the story is that it's relatively easy to give a good demo,
> > > slightly harder to do a real implementation, and then very hard to get
> > > market acceptance and penetration for new ideas.

> > Thats one thing, the other is how superior design (soft
> > and hardware) can be dumped in favour of crapy PCs.
> > Back in the late 70s and early 80s we had at SIEMENS a
> > network of EMS 5800 systems - OEM versions of the Xerox
> > Star - all over Germany and most European dependances.
> > Of course not every Employee had one, since including a
> > laser priter it was some 100,000 Mark value, but at least
> > most departments that needed to.

> There were a bunch of 'em  (Xerox Star) at Siemens Princeton in 
> 1985 when I was maintaining the DEC stuff there. 
> Nice stuff, great WSYWIC, lousy maintenance problems with the
> hardware and software though.

So they have send them back to the US ? Or did they
use 'original' Stars ?

> > And in my opinion no PC (no Win, no MacOS and no Next)
> > has catched up with the Star - and it's more than 20
> > years later !

> Yup.  I did get to see them and Ventura Publisher and there
> seemed to be some similarity.  Did Ventura start with ex-Star
> folks?

I think they have been insirated by the Star like anyone
else, but the Ventura design is more to the direction
of a single programm and of course made to fit GEM (or
did DR made GEM to fit the Publisher ?). GEM itself
was like the Mac a downsized (and crushed) version of
the Star (I still belive all 'modern' GUI systems are
just the mouse interface but noone took the desktop :( ).
Maybe with an exception of the OS/2 desktop (Althrough
still a GUI, it includes a lot more OO than most other).


> > BTW: Xerox' quality was just junk - from 10 systems
> > delivered to Witten (the SIEMENS plant where they
> > where configured and repacked) only 5 worked properly,
> > and 3 more could be reassembled from the five non
> > working. Like in the SU - 10 tractors delivered to
> > a farm coop and the farmers had to change parts
> > until at least 5 of them worked .... :)

> They got real slipshod for a while, even on the copiers.
> They lost a lot of that business to Kodak (who took over -- I think--
> the IBM copilers).

> Both DEC and Bell Labs ran those Kodak beasts and you could copy a whole
> library on 'em without problems.  Ask me about my CP/M doc set 8-).

Jep, and I still praise our Agfa copier - once I spend a
whole weekend beside it to copy Apple manuals - one page
at a time - no autofeeder - it was 1979 :)

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 07:07:10 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: <36716BA6.473C1F84@geocities.com>
Message-ID: <199812141208.MAA12375@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > And in my opinion no PC (no Win, no MacOS and no Next)
> > has catched up with the Star - and it's more than 20
> > years later !

> But you could put a PC together to those specs. As to the OO desktop, that's another
> story.

_NOW_ c'mon boy, 20 years ago a 12" tube with 256 by
256 pixles b&w was considered as high resolution.

And beside that - if I use a display with some
3 to 4 megapix on a modern PC, drawing isn't realy
faster than on the Star 20 years ago.

> > working. Like in the SU - 10 tractors delivered to
> > a farm coop and the farmers had to change parts
> > until at least 5 of them worked .... :)

> What comes to my mind is that once the crops were harvested, there wasn't always
> someone to pick them up and they often rotted in the field. Kind of like powerful
> computers that aren't being used properly. Think of what Xerox engineers could have
> done if they had access to a DEC Alpha or a PowerPC.

When in the SU the polit buerocracy and planing institute
was to be blamed, in the US marketing is the orgin of pain.

The Xerox projects have been wonderfull as long as they are
not influenced by management and marketing - for example,
later on, they ported the desktop to 386 PCs (or better,
they just miniaturised the star on a slotcard :). Calling
this a flop would tell it to nicely :)

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From pechter at monmouth.com  Mon Dec 14 06:21:58 1998
From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: tektronics 503 scope
In-Reply-To: <367e8e7c.681615451@insight> from Bill Richman at "Dec 14, 98 04:09:45 am"
Message-ID: <199812141222.HAA09498@monmouth.com>

> So, what's your (or anyone else's, for that matter) opinion on the Tek
> 465B?  I bought a used one as a Christmas gift for my partner; with two
> probes, an original manual, and shipping, it was around $600.  It
> appears to work fine except that when I connect the probes to the
> square-wave calibration output, the horizontal portions of the waves
> seem to be much "thicker" vertically than they should be.  The vertical
> portions appear to be reasonably sharp, however.  I've tried turning
> down the intensity and twiddling the focus and astigmatism adjustments,
> but it's not as sharp as I would like to see.  I can probably trade it
> for another one, but it means more shipping and possibly late for Xmas.
> Anyone know if there's another adjustment I'm missing?  I've only got
> the user's guide - not the service manual.  

That was the standard Field Service scope.
Solid, takes a beating.  I wish I had one.

I don't know about the problem you're seeing, though.

Bill


From hansp at digiweb.com  Mon Dec 14 07:07:01 1998
From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: single instance machines
References: <199812141145.LAA07669@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <36750D75.16AD9115@digiweb.com>

Hans Franke wrote:
 
> > OK, how about an ICT 1301 or Telefunken TR4 mainfrmaes form the sixties.
> 
> TR4 or TR440 would be nice to see again :)
> 
> > Not my personal property , part of the ACONIT collection.
> 
> ACONIT ?

   Association pour un Conservatoire Informatique et Telematique
or
   Association for the Conservation of Information Technology

Located in Grenoble, France with over 900 sq meteres of storage space
and lots of old machines...

For more info see our sadly outdated web page at


Regards

_---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___-
Hans B Pufal                          Comprehensive Computer Catalogue
             


From hansp at digiweb.com  Mon Dec 14 07:08:43 1998
From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: Telefunken TR4
References: <199812141145.LAA07669@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <36750DDB.D536DCA@digiweb.com>

Hans Franke wrote:
 
> TR4 or TR440 would be nice to see again :)

What's a TR440?

In my routings through the ACONIT collection I came across a box of 10
volumes of VERY detailed documentation on the TR4. Makes me think we
might be able to get ours working again.

Regards,

_---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___-
Hans B Pufal                          Comprehensive Computer Catalogue
             


From emu at ecubics.com  Mon Dec 14 08:17:13 1998
From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
Message-ID: <19981214141812.AAA14818@p2350>

Hi,

----------
> From: Hans Franke 

> And beside that - if I use a display with some
> 3 to 4 megapix on a modern PC, drawing isn't realy
> faster than on the Star 20 years ago.

"3 to 4 megapix", you're talking about very modern PCs ... ;-))

cheers,
emanuel


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 09:52:45 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: Telefunken TR4
In-Reply-To: <36750DDB.D536DCA@digiweb.com>
Message-ID: <199812141453.OAA24008@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> > TR4 or TR440 would be nice to see again :)

> What's a TR440?

I'm not this deep into the TR thing but AFAIK the
TR440 (or 4/40 ?) was the last of the TR4 series.

> In my routings through the ACONIT collection I came across a box of 10
> volumes of VERY detailed documentation on the TR4. Makes me think we
> might be able to get ours working again.

Should be possible - where is this TR located ?
I hnow at least 2 persons who had operated the TR440
here in Munich, and it should be possible to trace
some technicans thruout Germany.

The operating system is still some kind of a legend :)

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 09:55:02 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: single instance machines
In-Reply-To: <36750D75.16AD9115@digiweb.com>
Message-ID: <199812141456.OAA24620@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > > OK, how about an ICT 1301 or Telefunken TR4 mainfrmaes form the sixties.
> > TR4 or TR440 would be nice to see again :)
> > > Not my personal property , part of the ACONIT collection.
> > ACONIT ?

>    Association pour un Conservatoire Informatique et Telematique
> or
>    Association for the Conservation of Information Technology

> Located in Grenoble, France with over 900 sq meteres of storage space
> and lots of old machines...

> For more info see our sadly outdated web page at
> 

I think I _have_ to go ther - maybe next spring,
when the tourists are gone...

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From hansp at digiweb.com  Mon Dec 14 09:28:48 1998
From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: Telefunken TR4
References: <199812141453.OAA24008@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <36752EB0.5255F176@digiweb.com>

Hans Franke wrote:
> 
> > > TR4 or TR440 would be nice to see again :)
> 
> > What's a TR440?
> 
> I'm not this deep into the TR thing but AFAIK the
> TR440 (or 4/40 ?) was the last of the TR4 series.
> 
> > In my routings through the ACONIT collection I came across a box of 10
> > volumes of VERY detailed documentation on the TR4. Makes me think we
> > might be able to get ours working again.
> 
> Should be possible - where is this TR located ?

It is here in Grenoble...

> I hnow at least 2 persons who had operated the TR440
> here in Munich, and it should be possible to trace
> some technicans thruout Germany.

That might come in very useful. I suppose we must act quickly though
some of these people must be getting old ;-)

> The operating system is still some kind of a legend :)

Ahh, no there is something I know nothing about. I have found no
software for the TR4 as of yet...

Regards,

_---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___-
Hans B Pufal                          Comprehensive Computer Catalogue
             


From hansp at digiweb.com  Mon Dec 14 09:30:11 1998
From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: single instance machines
References: <199812141456.OAA24620@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <36752F02.AE5C5E31@digiweb.com>

Hans Franke wrote:
 
> >    Association pour un Conservatoire Informatique et Telematique
> > or
> >    Association for the Conservation of Information Technology
> 
> > Located in Grenoble, France with over 900 sq meteres of storage space
> > and lots of old machines...
> 
> > For more info see our sadly outdated web page at
> > 
> 
> I think I _have_ to go ther - maybe next spring,
> when the tourists are gone...

You and everyone on this list have an open invitation to visit if you
are in the Grenoble area. 

Regards

_---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___-
Hans B Pufal                          Comprehensive Computer Catalogue
             


From jeff.kaneko at juno.com  Mon Dec 14 09:07:57 1998
From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
Message-ID: <19981214.092825.260.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>



On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:36:31 EST Innfogra@aol.com writes:
>In a message dated 12/13/98 3:05:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
>yowza@yowza.com
>writes:
>
>> 
>>  The *beggining* of the Internet revolution?  You missed it by 
>almost 30
>>  years :-)  (I was just talking to a guy who was there for the 
>installation
>> of IMP #1 at UCLA.)
>>  
>You are a pioneer. The revolution starts when it is being adopted by 
>the
>masses. This is what is happening right now. Ebay is a part of it. The 
>iMac is
>a part of it. Mass use of the Internet will change it so that the 
>pioneers
>will have trouble recognizing it. The next few years will be 
>interesting.

There is a Chinese *curse* that reads:

      "May you live in interesting times"


>Paxton
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 10:29:09 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: <19981214141812.AAA14818@p2350>
Message-ID: <199812141530.PAA03164@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > And beside that - if I use a display with some
> > 3 to 4 megapix on a modern PC, drawing isn't realy
> > faster than on the Star 20 years ago.

> "3 to 4 megapix", you're talking about very modern PCs ... ;-))

I'm talking about things that have been done 20 years
ago on machines with a _microprogramm_ clock of 8 to 12
MHz (and an instruction time of 1 to 2 us). The Viewpoint
Desktop was drawn _very_ smooth and fast. WYSIWYG is not
an Ventura, Apple or what MS invention and 'in place
editing' isn't the new killer app ... (especialy because
the EMS 5800 didn't show some flickering borders like
Powerpoint does on my 400 MHz PII ).

The funny (or better sad) thing is that I, when I started at
the Siemens department where they had the EMS 5800, belived
that this was state of the art for office systems, and my
poor small Apple ][ was just a home system ... Now I know I
was just pure phantasie - a never happend story from an erased
timeline ...


Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 10:32:48 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: Feeding frenzy for SOL
In-Reply-To: 
References: <000901be2536$fe613e00$78f7fea9@mycroft>
Message-ID: <199812141533.PAA04240@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> > (Shall we have a private ClassicCmp eBay.com auction and see who 
> > will bid the highest?

> Hmmm...post something like "ham sandwhich", which we agree
> means the Sol?  :)

> Maybe that explains some of the really odd things I've
> seen on ebay!

Geee - worth to give a try.

Gruss
hans


--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From ddameron at earthlink.net  Mon Dec 14 09:56:20 1998
From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
Message-ID: <199812141556.HAA00903@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

Hi Sam,
At 10:48 PM 12/13/98 -0800, you wrote:

>I'm looking at the manual for this thing.  It was a pretty righteous
>terminal in its day.  Maximum transmission rate is 9600 baud.  It had a
>video out so you could hook up an external monitor.  According to the
>schematic, the biggest chip on the I/O board is a TR1402A or 1602A (it has
>both numbers written on it).

Sounds like a 40 pin DIP UART.
-Dave



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 11:03:25 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: Conner Hard drives?
In-Reply-To: <55d13698.3672ddd8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199812141604.QAA11116@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> I have a Conner 3 1/2 inch HD CP 3044 do you know what the drive will format
> to?

Should be som 40 MB IDE, but try
http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/specs/modelno.shtml
to get more information - the segate/connor specs are
realy helpfull. (And mormaly Connor disks had a sticker
with the C/H/S numbers - most the same as where the number
modell number is).

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com  Mon Dec 14 10:21:22 1998
From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: Correction
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981214082122.0097bd00@mail.bluefeathertech.com>

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From jfoust at threedee.com  Mon Dec 14 10:39:42 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: Dr. Dobbs..
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4.1.19981208135746.00b77a60@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981214103942.00df7940@pc>

At 06:43 AM 12/12/98 -0500, Doug Spence wrote:
>
>On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Chuck McManis wrote:
>
>> Dale Luck has PCC newspaper vol1 number 1. It was a hoot to read through!
>
>Oooh, name dropping!

Don't forget, you can also impress people by dropping Chuck McManis'
name in conversation.  :-)

- John



From jfoust at threedee.com  Mon Dec 14 10:57:43 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981214105743.00e6a120@pc>

At 06:18 PM 12/13/98 -0600, Doug Yowza wrote:
>
>You mean you're going after the jewelry crowd?  That should be
>interesting.  If I start seeing old women with big hair wearing 4004's
>around their neck, I'll be happy being able to say "I knew Paxton when he
>started this trend."

Nope, you gotta start making CPU beanie babies for people to 
hang on the side of their monitors.  What's the ticket.
"This beanie baby is the chip used in the Altair!"  Or maybe
little dancing chips that wiggle when they hear music.
Or collector cards with pictures of chips, particularly
if you can design a game around them involving magic powers.

- John



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Mon Dec 14 11:08:26 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: <199812141530.PAA03164@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Hans Franke wrote:

> The funny (or better sad) thing is that I, when I started at
> the Siemens department where they had the EMS 5800, belived
> that this was state of the art for office systems, and my
> poor small Apple ][ was just a home system ... Now I know I
> was just pure phantasie - a never happend story from an erased
> timeline ...

It WAS state of the art, and by the way, it still is.  I agree with you
that the Mac and Win95 still have not caught up to the Star's desktop.

I have an EMS 5800 in my collection, Hans.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From marvin at rain.org  Mon Dec 14 11:32:49 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: Rescue - Sun3
References: 
Message-ID: <36754BC1.27DC2798@rain.org>

A friend of mine just sent me this, and Suns are not something I collect. 
Hope someone can save it!


Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:23:44 -0800
From: cotofana 
Reply-To: cotofana@jps.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
Path:
news2.avtel.net!news.callamer.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!207.0.56.122!news.eli.net!blushng.jps.net!209.239.207.46
Xref: news2.avtel.net comp.sys.sun.wanted:16156

FREE for pickup in Hayward, CA. (east bay)
---------------------------------------------
If you know someone who loves antiques... 8)
---------------------------------------------
CONTACT: ccotofan@ucsd.edu for more info
--------------------------------------------
It'd be a shame to throw it all away, but I
don't have the space or time to make use of it.
---------------------------------------------
Sun 3/75:
* 8 Mb ram
* sun 3 keyboard in excellent cond.
* corresponding optical mouse and pad
* ROM Rev 2.3
* 19" b/w monitor attached to case
* passes startup hardware tests
* on start up, it looks for an ethernet address to boot from...

Ten 60 Mb tape cartridges & tape rack:
* SunOS 4.1.1 (for the Sun 3) on two tapes
* SunDraw, SunPaint, SunWrite, SunPhigs, SunBin on separate tapes
* 3 blank tapes

Documentation:
* Solaris 2.1 Binders (some shrinkwrapped, some opened; all in
  great cond.) 8 total
* SunDraw, SunPaint, SunWrite inst. manuals (all unopened)
* Sun3 hardware inst. et al manuals
* Solaris 2.1 Manuals (some shrinkwrapped, some opened; all in
  great cond.) also 8 total
* other manuals: Openwin 3 Desktop Ref. Guide & User's Guide

Cables, etc:
* an old ext. HDD of unknown size in generic case
* 2 DB50 cables (one short, one long)
* four 9-pin monitor cables (long and short)
* several other misc. cables
-------------------------------------------


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 13:48:12 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812141530.PAA03164@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <199812141849.SAA14178@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > The funny (or better sad) thing is that I, when I started at
> > the Siemens department where they had the EMS 5800, belived
> > that this was state of the art for office systems, and my
> > poor small Apple ][ was just a home system ... Now I know I
> > was just pure phantasie - a never happend story from an erased
> > timeline ...

> It WAS state of the art, and by the way, it still is.  I agree with you
> that the Mac and Win95 still have not caught up to the Star's desktop.

> I have an EMS 5800 in my collection, Hans.

You have ? You didn't show me - realy a EMS 5800 ?
With Siemens label ? DId they realy reimport them
to the USA ? What a joke :)


Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 14:12:13 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <199812112331.PAA31140@oa.ptloma.edu>
References:  from "Tony Duell" at Dec 11, 98 07:29:32 pm
Message-ID: <199812141913.TAA17025@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> ::The common machines were the Dragons and Tandy CoCos. They also turn up 
> ::in the Tiger (but that's not exactly common), Acorn 6809 CPU boards, 
> ::Vectrex video games, some peripherals (HP disk drives, for example), the CBM 
> ::9000 (?),  etc.

> Don't know of a CBM 9000. The CBM 900 is based on the Z8000/1.

CBM 9000 aka MMF aka SuperPET - still kind of a dream for most
commo collectors (like the 900). Other than the most desired
rare Commodores, the 9000 was a production unit and supported.

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 14:12:13 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines  
In-Reply-To: <199812132236.XAA29220@iaehv.IAEhv.nl>
Message-ID: <199812141913.TAA17028@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> How about the Philips P2000 family? I have not seen messages about
> those machines on the list. Z80 system, 48K RAM, 16K ROM in a cart
> so it was easy to change programs, micro cassette recorder that was
> operated by the computer so no fiddling with buttons, floppy drives
> optional, video 40x24 color (viewdata/teletext character set) or 
> 80x24 monochrome. Started life as a dedicated word processor, BASIC 
> cart added later. There was a disk operating system that could work
> with the programs originally meant for cassette use only, and CP/M
> was available. P2000T was the 40x24 cassette version, P2000M was the 
> 80x24 disk version. There also was a P2000C, which was a 'portable'
> machine like the Kaypro's, but it ran CP/M only and was not compatible
> with the P2000T/M. AFAIK they were all developed and produced in
> the Philips factories in Austria.

I have a P2000C with externam XEBEC Harddisk drive - still a
nice CP/M system, but I miss the P2000 sektop systems. I have
seen them in some magazines (CHIP) around 1980, but never got
one into my hands.

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 14:15:54 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <3671DA12.3C37364E@goldrush.com>
Message-ID: <199812141917.TAA17549@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > And by the way, to catch up with the title - is there any
> > other Commodore B500 around, or a Pascal Microengine ?

> I hear of more of the P/B500 in europe then here, actually in the U.S. I think
> there are maybe three or so around, since they never were oficially released
> past the late prototype stage (due to one of Commodore's run-ins with the
> FCC).  Dunno how many (if any) they sold in europe.

I never have seen any B500 beside mine, but I know the P500
story - just the B500 is more like the B128/CBM 600.

Gruss
Hans

(Cammeron, did you already setup the pictures somewhere ?)


--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Mon Dec 14 13:23:21 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: <199812141849.SAA14178@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Hans Franke wrote:

> > I have an EMS 5800 in my collection, Hans.
> 
> You have ? You didn't show me - realy a EMS 5800 ?
> With Siemens label ? DId they realy reimport them
> to the USA ? What a joke :)

I got it only a few weeks ago.  And yes, it is the Siemens labeled 5800 in
the light grey case.  I got it from one of the engineers at Xerox PARC who
worked on the Star/Daybreak team.  Did Siemens have an exclusive market in
Europe to market these machines, which are otherwise known as the 6085 (or
Daybreak?) in the U.S. and other countries around the world.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 14:31:12 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: Annual troll for Ohio Scientific
In-Reply-To: <000001be2568$2ff27d40$3af438cb@a.davie>
References: <15c5a969.3671976f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199812141932.TAA19291@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

Date sent:      	Sat, 12 Dec 1998 11:41:42 +1100
Send reply to:  	classiccmp@u.washington.edu
From:           	"Andrew Davie" 
To:             	"Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
Subject:        	RE: Annual troll for Ohio Scientific
Originally to:  	

> I have a nice homebrew C1 superboard setup, with wooden sides and a sheet
> metal case.  User has added a "break" switch, baud rate toggle switch,
> 1Mhz/2Mhz switch, some other doodads.  That's what the OSI machines were all
> about :)  I've also got a manual or two lying around.

I have a C1 board build in a childrens school desk :) The former
owner, a friend of mine, mase it look a bit like a 1970s mainframe
console :) Anyone with a more unusual C1P ?

> I know of a C1P system, boxed, for sale at around US$1000 - out of my
> league, I'm afraid.

Thanks, no.

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From donm at cts.com  Mon Dec 14 13:34:16 1998
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: Comterm Hyperion - Boot disk?
In-Reply-To: <8a7436d6.3674bc49@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 Innfogra@aol.com wrote:

> Looking at the June 83 ad for the Hyperion I noticed that it has 320K drives
> instead of 360K. If I remember right the 320K format is 7 sector not 8 sector
> drives. 

No, it is 8 sector instead of 9 sector disk format.  The drives are no 
different!
						 - don
 
> I propose an experiment even though I too, believe it takes a special version
> of DOS. Get an old PC and format a DOS disk at the 320K format using ver 2.11.
> Transfer the system and see what happens.
> 
> Paxton
> 

    donm@cts.com
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
    Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives
         Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society
       Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology.
     Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard  (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
        see old system support at  http://www.psyber.com/~tcj
visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cws86.kyamk.fi/mirrors/cpm
   	 with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm




From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 14:39:49 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812141849.SAA14178@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <199812141940.TAA20279@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > > I have an EMS 5800 in my collection, Hans.
> > You have ? You didn't show me - realy a EMS 5800 ?
> > With Siemens label ? DId they realy reimport them
> > to the USA ? What a joke :)

> I got it only a few weeks ago.  And yes, it is the Siemens labeled 5800 in
> the light grey case.

Witch model is it exactly ? Do you also have the laser printer unit ?
EMS 5800 is the family name (and also the only name on the first 
series - the later models had also distigtive numbers on the front.

> I got it from one of the engineers at Xerox PARC who
> worked on the Star/Daybreak team.

Wow - great - try to get documentation, info, whatever - I would
be especialy interested in material (and stories) from 'the
other side' - I know some stories and have some material from
Siemens people.

> Did Siemens have an exclusive market in
> Europe to market these machines, which are otherwise known as the 6085 (or
> Daybreak?) in the U.S. and other countries around the world.

I don't know, but I guess in Germany at least - beside two original
labeled units in a R&D department at Hoffmanstrasse, I never have
seen any Xerox units in Germany.

I realy love Viewpoint. I don't think anybody needs more PC
at work than this system (no mater on which hardware). As I
said earlyer around 1980 these machines (hard- and software)
have been my impression of state of the art office (desktop)
systems and I still can't belive the outcome.

Gruss
Hans


--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 14:43:04 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: Dr. Dobbs..
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981214103942.00df7940@pc>
References: 
Message-ID: <199812141944.TAA20716@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

>>On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Chuck McManis wrote:
>>> Dale Luck has PCC newspaper vol1 number 1. It was a hoot to read through!

>>Oooh, name dropping!

> Don't forget, you can also impress people by dropping Chuck McManis'
> name in conversation.  :-)

And never forget to use abrevation like PCC
-> Presidents Comitee Conference (on Electric Railways)

:))

Gruss
H.

No, I don't like Trams - I love them.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 14:47:59 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: Telefunken TR4
In-Reply-To: <36752EB0.5255F176@digiweb.com>
Message-ID: <199812141949.TAA21309@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > I hnow at least 2 persons who had operated the TR440
> > here in Munich, and it should be possible to trace
> > some technicans thruout Germany.

> That might come in very useful. I suppose we must act quickly though
> some of these people must be getting old ;-)

Give me a note. And no, not realy, lets say mit 50'S and 60's.
I whish I could talk the people at the Deutsches Museum into
rebuilding the 2002 for demonstartions - I know some folks who
are still able to do this - but the youngest one is 64 ! Ten
more years and nobody will be alive.

> > The operating system is still some kind of a legend :)

> Ahh, no there is something I know nothing about. I have found no
> software for the TR4 as of yet...

I might find some programming charts and books within my junk
(There has been at least on TR at the LMU in Munich).

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From eric at brouhaha.com  Mon Dec 14 13:59:27 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: 24x80 Standard? (was: Re: HX20)
In-Reply-To: <199812141009.KAA05435@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
	(Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de)
References: <199812111558.PAA06078@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>	(Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) <199812141009.KAA05435@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <19981214195927.16742.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Hans wrote:
> 64 by 20 would also have been a good choice - almost
> the same ratio than 80x24 but with 256 lines (512 pixles)
> still acceptable within TV limits.

No.  I've seen 64-column text on typical mid-70s NTSC televisions, and it was
abysmal.  The televisions had to be modified to remove their color trap
in order to get reasonably sharp characters.


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 14:59:57 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: Value
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <199812142001.UAA23345@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> Since prosecution of such crimes is so unlikely, I've been thinking of
> forming vigilante.net (damn, just checked, and it's already taken!), a

vigilante.com and .de are still available
(and of course .mil if you prefer the hard way :)

> network of sysadmins around the country willing to LART these guys,
> sellers that engage is shill bidding, crooks that take the money and run,
> crooks that send damaged goods, etc.

Don't forget the seller that add rules after completation of
the auction and then plays kind of jo-jo game...

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From pechter at monmouth.com  Mon Dec 14 14:07:42 1998
From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: <199812141208.MAA12372@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from Hans Franke at "Dec 14, 98 01:08:10 pm"
Message-ID: <199812142007.PAA73657@monmouth.com>

> > There were a bunch of 'em  (Xerox Star) at Siemens Princeton in 
> > 1985 when I was maintaining the DEC stuff there. 
> > Nice stuff, great WSYWIC, lousy maintenance problems with the
> > hardware and software though.
> 
> So they have send them back to the US ? Or did they
> use 'original' Stars ?

They used the original Xerox Stars...

Bill


From jfoust at threedee.com  Mon Dec 14 14:09:32 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: 24x80 Standard? (was: Re: HX20)
In-Reply-To: <19981214195927.16742.qmail@brouhaha.com>
References: <199812141009.KAA05435@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
 <199812111558.PAA06078@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981214140932.00e768e0@pc>

At 07:59 PM 12/14/98 -0000, Eric Smith wrote:
>
>No.  I've seen 64-column text on typical mid-70s NTSC televisions, and it was
>abysmal.  The televisions had to be modified to remove their color trap
>in order to get reasonably sharp characters.

I remember when the Amiga was first launched, its composite output
was purported to be able to drive 80 columns on an ordinary TV.
Was it a matter of televisions improving in the same time period,
or that they might've been talking about monochrome as opposed to
color?  Certainly NTSC color has a hard time changing quickly, its
resolution is only a hundred or so lines across, isn't it, while
gray-scale resolution is as much four or five times that?

- John



From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Mon Dec 14 14:25:10 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <199812141913.TAA17025@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 14, 98 08:13:13 pm
Message-ID: <199812142025.MAA14236@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From yowza at yowza.com  Mon Dec 14 14:23:42 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: Value
In-Reply-To: <199812142001.UAA23345@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Hans Franke wrote:

> Don't forget the seller that add rules after completation of
> the auction and then plays kind of jo-jo game...

Jo-jo was a man who thought he was a loner.  Get back, jo-jo!

Oh.  Yo-yo?  Nevermind.

ObCC: Have you ever wondered what such pioneers as Danny Hillis, Stuart
Brand, Mitch Kapor, and Doug Carlston were up to these days?  Not yo-yos,
but close: clocks.
	http:/www.longnow.com/

-- Doug



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 15:23:49 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: 24x80 Standard? (was: Re: HX20)
In-Reply-To: <19981214195927.16742.qmail@brouhaha.com>
References: <199812141009.KAA05435@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>	(Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de)
Message-ID: <199812142024.UAA27223@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > 64 by 20 would also have been a good choice - almost
> > the same ratio than 80x24 but with 256 lines (512 pixles)
> > still acceptable within TV limits.

> No.  I've seen 64-column text on typical mid-70s NTSC televisions, and it was
> abysmal.  The televisions had to be modified to remove their color trap
> in order to get reasonably sharp characters.

(Please, notice, I havn't talked about Colour TV)

First, basicly 70's tv had the same specs than todays.
And second 64 colume _and_ in colour _and_ NTSC ?
Say, do you still belive in the child, bringing all
the gifts ? (Or in Santa, to mention the US variant ?)

For NTSC is even 40 Columes hard to display, since a
yellow to blue change and back (for example, to take
a often used foreground/background) can be done 160
times within one scan line - but nothing else - you
will just get a kind of glowing screen. But thats not
a problem of using a TV set, thats a problem of the
NTSC colour signaling.

And if we talk about a 1976 design of a text screen,
the natural CRT would be a B&W set - still around
this time, the majority of all sold TV sets have
been B&W.

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From yowza at yowza.com  Mon Dec 14 14:28:23 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: <199812142007.PAA73657@monmouth.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Bill Pechter wrote:

> They used the original Xerox Stars...

Semi-obscure factoid: there was no machine named the Xerox Star.  "Star"
referred to the software suite which ran on the Xerox 8010.

-- Doug



From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com  Mon Dec 14 14:31:35 1998
From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: Rescue - Sun3
In-Reply-To: <36754BC1.27DC2798@rain.org>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote:

> Sun 3/75:
> * 8 Mb ram
> * sun 3 keyboard in excellent cond.
> * corresponding optical mouse and pad
> * ROM Rev 2.3
> * 19" b/w monitor attached to case
> * passes startup hardware tests
> * on start up, it looks for an ethernet address to boot from...
> 
> Ten 60 Mb tape cartridges & tape rack:
> * SunOS 4.1.1 (for the Sun 3) on two tapes
> * SunDraw, SunPaint, SunWrite, SunPhigs, SunBin on separate tapes
> * 3 blank tapes
> 
> Documentation:
> * Solaris 2.1 Binders (some shrinkwrapped, some opened; all in
>   great cond.) 8 total
> * SunDraw, SunPaint, SunWrite inst. manuals (all unopened)
> * Sun3 hardware inst. et al manuals
> * Solaris 2.1 Manuals (some shrinkwrapped, some opened; all in
>   great cond.) also 8 total
> * other manuals: Openwin 3 Desktop Ref. Guide & User's Guide
> 
> Cables, etc:
> * an old ext. HDD of unknown size in generic case
> * 2 DB50 cables (one short, one long)
> * four 9-pin monitor cables (long and short)
> * several other misc. cables
> -------------------------------------------

Someone to the north is very lucky...this is a really cool old system. I
have one that I'm looking for the right monitor for (the one that mounts
to the dimple top)....around the LA area....hint....

By the way, if anyone is looking to hack at a 3/50, I have one that won't
boot up for grabs. I'm pretty sure it's just some bad memory, but I have a
couple of these and don't have time to mess with it...



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 15:37:27 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <199812141913.TAA17025@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
References: <199812112331.PAA31140@oa.ptloma.edu>
Message-ID: <199812142038.UAA29469@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

>>::The common machines were the Dragons and Tandy CoCos. They also turn up 
>>::in the Tiger (but that's not exactly common), Acorn 6809 CPU boards, 
>>::Vectrex video games, some peripherals (HP disk drives, for example), the CBM 
>>::9000 (?),  etc.

>> Don't know of a CBM 9000. The CBM 900 is based on the Z8000/1.

> CBM 9000 aka MMF aka SuperPET - still kind of a dream for most
> commo collectors (like the 900). Other than the most desired
> rare Commodores, the 9000 was a production unit and supported.

Oh, before I forget - Also known as 8096 and 8096SK and SP9000.
Also connected to the Los/96 Kit - an add-on for a regular (big
case) 8032 (AFAIR I have one, unopened original boxed and some
spare manuals at the storage - yes, ck, I will take pictures :)

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Mon Dec 14 14:48:19 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: <199812141940.TAA20279@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Hans Franke wrote:

> > > > I have an EMS 5800 in my collection, Hans.
> > > You have ? You didn't show me - realy a EMS 5800 ?
> > > With Siemens label ? DId they realy reimport them
> > > to the USA ? What a joke :)
> 
> > I got it only a few weeks ago.  And yes, it is the Siemens labeled 5800 in
> > the light grey case.
> 
> Witch model is it exactly ? Do you also have the laser printer unit ?
> EMS 5800 is the family name (and also the only name on the first 
> series - the later models had also distigtive numbers on the front.

This one is labeled "Siemens 5800" on the front so I'll have to take a
closer look when I get home to find any distinguishing model numbers.  I
didn't get the laser printer with it.

> > I got it from one of the engineers at Xerox PARC who
> > worked on the Star/Daybreak team.
> 
> Wow - great - try to get documentation, info, whatever - I would
> be especialy interested in material (and stories) from 'the
> other side' - I know some stories and have some material from
> Siemens people.

Unfortunately, he didn't have any manuals for it.  Equally unfortunate,
the Daybreak is a sore topic for him, probably because of what it could
have been had Xerox marketed it properly.  It seems all the Xerox
engineers I have met who worked on this want to put it behind them.  So
when I asked if I could call him for help he said he'd rather not have to
ever deal with them again :(  I'm sure if I conbtacted him in a year or so
he might be getting just nostalgic enough to give me some pointers if I
need them.

If you check the VCF links page I have a Xerox section that has some
stories on the Star.  Also check The Elixir Project link in the Computer
History Resources section:

http://www.vintage.org/vcf/vcflinks.htm

> I realy love Viewpoint. I don't think anybody needs more PC
> at work than this system (no mater on which hardware). As I
> said earlyer around 1980 these machines (hard- and software)
> have been my impression of state of the art office (desktop)
> systems and I still can't belive the outcome.

The bay area gang just recently got another batch of these that have
ViewPoint 2.0 installed.  I've got the install disks and a complete manual
set, plus tons of fonts.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 16:00:58 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: 24x80 Standard? (was: Re: HX20)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981214140932.00e768e0@pc>
References: <19981214195927.16742.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <199812142102.VAA03066@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

>>No.  I've seen 64-column text on typical mid-70s NTSC televisions, and it was
>>abysmal.  The televisions had to be modified to remove their color trap
>>in order to get reasonably sharp characters.

> I remember when the Amiga was first launched, its composite output
> was purported to be able to drive 80 columns on an ordinary TV.
> Was it a matter of televisions improving in the same time period,
> or that they might've been talking about monochrome as opposed to
> color?

Jep, thats the main thing I think. And 80 columes are also
hard for B&W TV - 80 columes with 8 bits per character gives
320 lines with less than 200 ns per line. Thats more than
5 MHz - and at 5 MHz the signal would be some sinus like
wave (a 'sawtooth' with heavy rounding), and the resulting
display would be more like gray - ok, of course letters
are not strict lines of black and white, so the resulting
might display characters (together with the highly sophisticated
patern matching machine called brain). For a B&W TV signal
some 200 Lines is a _VERY_ good result, so 80 chars with
6 pixles each (240 lines) might be well readable on a good TV.

Remember, these calculations are only minimal influenced with
the quality of a TV set, but rather fixed by TV modulation
schemes. you just can't fit a 10 MHz signal within a 5 MHz
chanal. Ok, to be honest, the numbers are based on european
TV, since I just can remember them without pain - 50 (half)
pictures per second, 625 lines per (full) picture, 15625
kHz line frequency, 64 us per scan line ... (Just ask me
after beer number 10 :), but basicly the US system comes
to similar numbers when we are down to lines since the
bandwidthe (chanal) is the same.

>  Certainly NTSC color has a hard time changing quickly, its
> resolution is only a hundred or so lines across, isn't it, while
> gray-scale resolution is as much four or five times that?

Jep, exactly - you have always to 'runn the colour cycle'
from one colour to the next, so you cant go from bright
yellow to blue without crossing some other colours - and
the speed to go around the cycle is the maximum frequency
of the colour signal.

Gruss
H.

--
Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh.
H.Achternbusch


From hansp at digiweb.com  Mon Dec 14 15:04:12 1998
From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
References: <199812141917.TAA17549@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <36757D4C.93CE9830@digiweb.com>

Hans Franke wrote:
> 
> > > And by the way, to catch up with the title - is there any
> > > other Commodore B500 around, or a Pascal Microengine ?

Pascal Microengine aka Pascaline, we have one with some docs and disks.
I haven't fired her up yet, need to find a working terminal ;-)

Regards

_---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___-
Hans B Pufal                          Comprehensive Computer Catalogue
             


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 16:25:06 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <36757D4C.93CE9830@digiweb.com>
Message-ID: <199812142126.VAA06271@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > > > And by the way, to catch up with the title - is there any
> > > > other Commodore B500 around, or a Pascal Microengine ?

> Pascal Microengine aka Pascaline, we have one with some docs and disks.

Pascaline ? Never heared of - do we talk about the machine
that executed UCSD p-code via a WD chipset as 'native' code ?

> I haven't fired her up yet, need to find a working terminal ;-)

Should be without any problem - I have two of each (terminal,
disk drives and micro engines).

BTW: Did I already tell you that you are a _very_ nasty guy ?
I always thought I had some realy rare thing - and now ... sigh..

:)))

Danke
Hans

P.S.: Maybe we should realy meet and exchange some informations.
I have about 15 or so disks with programms and some 60 cm of
manuals for the micro engines.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 16:34:24 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812142007.PAA73657@monmouth.com>
Message-ID: <199812142135.VAA07757@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > They used the original Xerox Stars...

> Semi-obscure factoid: there was no machine named the Xerox Star.  "Star"
> referred to the software suite which ran on the Xerox 8010.

Gues what, there has never been a unit called EMS 5800,
but if I would use the real numbers, nobody in Germany
would know them. Shure, Xerox had a bunch of Software
and Hardware 'code'names and even more numbers and sales
names, and Viewpoint might be the correct sales name, but
using the term 'Star' and everybody knows (At least everybody
with a minimum brain^H^H^H^H^Hhistoric knowledge).

http://www.best.com/~curbow/xerox/retrospect/images/figure8.jpg
is a real nice picture about that :)

Gruss
H.

--
Traue keinem Menschen der 5 Tage blutet und immer noch nicht tod ist.


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 14 13:29:13 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: tektronics 503 scope
In-Reply-To: <367e8e7c.681615451@insight> from "Bill Richman" at Dec 14, 98 04:09:45 am
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 14 13:36:22 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: replacement parts, was tektronics 503 scope
In-Reply-To: <199812140536.VAA22203@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from "dave dameron" at Dec 13, 98 09:36:21 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 14 13:38:52 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
In-Reply-To:  from "Sam Ismail" at Dec 13, 98 10:48:13 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 14 13:22:24 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
In-Reply-To:  from "Innfogra@aol.com" at Dec 13, 98 08:38:11 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 14 14:15:33 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: <199812141530.PAA03164@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 14, 98 04:30:09 pm
Message-ID: 

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From yowza at yowza.com  Mon Dec 14 15:53:15 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: <199812142135.VAA07757@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Hans Franke wrote:

> would know them. Shure, Xerox had a bunch of Software
> and Hardware 'code'names and even more numbers and sales
> names, and Viewpoint might be the correct sales name, but
> using the term 'Star' and everybody knows (At least everybody
> with a minimum brain^H^H^H^H^Hhistoric knowledge).
> 
> http://www.best.com/~curbow/xerox/retrospect/images/figure8.jpg
> is a real nice picture about that :)

The figure shows a mix of software and hardware, and maybe there's no real
reason to separate the two, but I think of it as:
	Star ran on the 8010 (codenamed Dandelion)
	Viewpoint ran on the 6085 (codenamed Daybreak)

AFAIK, the Siemens box was an OEM version of the 6085, and the only
difference was the color.

-- Doug



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 16:56:15 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:13 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
In-Reply-To: <48a29397.367463e9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199812142157.VAA11326@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > With regards specifically to the auction in question, the item was listed
> >  as a "S100 BUS IMSAI ALTAIR Z80 EMULATOR".  This item has nothing to do
> >  with emulating the S-100 bus.  That is deceptive.

> I agree that the listing is deceptive, poor English also. I doubt any court
> would convict on the listings of the title box alone, they would rely on the
> description to decide deception.

But thats exacly why I turned it up - it's a oridinary Z80 ICE.
Usefull for hardware developers, but anything about Altair & co
is just free flowing.

> Lets take my gold 8080 for example. (It is over 10 years old so it is on
> topic). While I would list it under CPUs my title would say something like
> "Beautiful Gold Intel 8080 Microprocessor, Rare!

Still true. Althrough I would laugh a lot, if the
price rises above 10 USD.

> 'Gold' and 'Intel' for the search engines. 'Beautiful' to get you to look at
> the picture, a nice close-up larger than life size (with size disclaimer). The
> quality of the photo is very important. It would be plugged into anti-stat
> foam in a clear plastic box. I know some of the list would quibble over the
> term 'Rare'. I have no real idea of the rarity. However after working with a
> scrapper for years my guess is they 'are' rare.

Jep, rarity is relative - German people are rare on this
world, but still there some 120 millions out there :) Or
to get down to collection, maybe you know this Magic the
Gathering carde game - I was at one time heavy involved
and played all the time - this was in the very early stage
and I have seven 'Black Lotus' cards. At one time the price
was above USD 1000 (thats a grand) for one of this pices of
paper - but I still use them for playing - more fun (ok, to
be honest, I sold two of them - I couldnt resist, but acording
to the rules only one is alowed within a game). What I want
to tell ist that rarity has more parts - shure, I know these
cards are rare, they are even rare within my munch of some
100K cards, but I have plenty.

> My intended market, obviously is the jewelry collector or someone interested
> in gold items, not a computer collector. Old gold electronics are very
> attractive.

PFUI!

> The unfortunate part of this is that poor English is becoming more acceptable.
> The Internet and it's use of keywords only contributes to this.

I swear I'll try to improve.

Gruss
H.

P.S.: And don't mis that he stood up onto the list.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 17:01:19 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812141530.PAA03164@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 14, 98 04:30:09 pm
Message-ID: <199812142202.WAA11996@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > I'm talking about things that have been done 20 years
> > ago on machines with a _microprogramm_ clock of 8 to 12
> > MHz (and an instruction time of 1 to 2 us). The Viewpoint
> > Desktop was drawn _very_ smooth and fast. WYSIWYG is not

> Remember that the PERQ (and I would assume the Xerox machines, although I 
> know a lot less about them) had a graphics blitter from the beginning. In 
> fact one of the design specs for the PERQ 1 was that it must be as fast 
> at displaying text (even though it was a bitmapped display) as a normal 
> terminal on a 9600 baud line (which is what most people were used to).

> In fact the PERQ 1 considerablly exceeded that spec. Just doing graphics, 
> it could manage 10 full-screen bit-blits per second (!). Something that 
> few PCs could manage (or even can manage?)

Today its possible - Memory to Memory transfer using
PCI is above 40 MB/s and thats well for a 4 MegPix
display.

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 14 17:13:41 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812142135.VAA07757@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <199812142214.WAA13873@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > http://www.best.com/~curbow/xerox/retrospect/images/figure8.jpg
> > is a real nice picture about that :)

> The figure shows a mix of software and hardware, and maybe there's no real
> reason to separate the two, but I think of it as:
> 	Star ran on the 8010 (codenamed Dandelion)
> 	Viewpoint ran on the 6085 (codenamed Daybreak)

True.

> AFAIK, the Siemens box was an OEM version of the 6085, and the only
> difference was the color.

Agreed. Different colour, changed keboard layout (keycaps),
added logo and label, changed power supply and translated
and changed software. Also some apps have been developed
over here. I once had the oportunity, but at this time
Smalltalk was like a bohemian vilage to me (German phrase
for unknown). The laser printers where changed to feed
properly A4 paper (the original feeder had some problems),
also the PS have been changed (Of course includeing VDE
aproval). The printer OS has not been changed.

I have no idea about the later developments at Xerox.
Here I know only the Siemens products (like the 5815
and 5840). I don't know on which designs they have
been based.

Servus
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From hansp at digiweb.com  Mon Dec 14 16:36:05 1998
From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
References: <199812142126.VAA06271@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <367592D5.54FA15C@digiweb.com>

Hans Franke wrote:
> 
> > > > > And by the way, to catch up with the title - is there any
> > > > > other Commodore B500 around, or a Pascal Microengine ?
> 
> > Pascal Microengine aka Pascaline, we have one with some docs and disks.
> 
> Pascaline ? Never heared of - do we talk about the machine
> that executed UCSD p-code via a WD chipset as 'native' code ?

The same. The machine has the name Pascaline in script on the front and
the manula witrh it is by WD. 2 8" floppies and a single boeard
computer.

> BTW: Did I already tell you that you are a _very_ nasty guy ?
> I always thought I had some realy rare thing - and now ... sigh..

That's all part of this game right? ;-)

> P.S.: Maybe we should realy meet and exchange some informations.
> I have about 15 or so disks with programms and some 60 cm of
> manuals for the micro engines.

Ahh, yes indeed. I was in Munich while you were at VCF so I did not
contact you but it is likely that I will be visiting every 3 or 4 months
(the company I work for has an office and several clients near Munich).
Next time I visit I will be sure and let you know...

Regards

_---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___-
Hans B Pufal                          Comprehensive Computer Catalogue
             


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Mon Dec 14 17:11:37 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:

> > I'm looking at the manual for this thing.  It was a pretty righteous
> > terminal in its day.  Maximum transmission rate is 9600 baud.  It had a
> > video out so you could hook up an external monitor.  According to the
> > schematic, the biggest chip on the I/O board is a TR1402A or 1602A (it has
> > both numbers written on it).  I have no idea what this is.  But there's no
> > 8008 in there.  I think I checked it out when I first got it, and you
> > would've tried to get more than $10 out of me if it did I'm sure. ;)
> 
> There are several terminals made by Beehive. Mine must be a later one - 
> it has an 8008 in it (I am not sure what the UART is), a separate 
> keyboard, but no joystick. Its main claim to fame is that it has a Hebrew 
> character set in it as well as the normal one.

The one I have is circa 1974.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Mon Dec 14 17:13:53 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: <199812142135.VAA07757@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Hans Franke wrote:

> http://www.best.com/~curbow/xerox/retrospect/images/figure8.jpg
> is a real nice picture about that :)

David Curbow is the guy we got our 6085s from.  This is his memorial page
to the work he did at Xerox.  He's now working at Apple.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Mon Dec 14 17:19:33 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:

> AFAIK, the Siemens box was an OEM version of the 6085, and the only
> difference was the color.

Correct.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Mon Dec 14 17:16:26 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: <199812142158.QAA00265@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA18372; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 04:09:59 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de wrote:
> I think they have been insirated by the Star like anyone
> else, but the Ventura design is more to the direction
> of a single programm and of course made to fit GEM (or
> did DR made GEM to fit the Publisher ?). GEM itself

I think GEM was made first and Publisher was the only really big app for
it. I have a couple of boxes of Ventura and GEM as well over here. The
filemanager is worse than on a macintosh (actually, it's worse than the
MS-DOS shell, IMHO). The graphics have no refined quality to them, they
look like a screensaver that draws boxes with random coordinates :)
Were GEM and Lisa the first non-Xerox GUI projects, or was there some kind
of weird little company that made a perfect gui but vanished into thin
air?

> was like the Mac a downsized (and crushed) version of
> the Star (I still belive all 'modern' GUI systems are
> just the mouse interface but noone took the desktop :( ).
> Maybe with an exception of the OS/2 desktop (Althrough
> still a GUI, it includes a lot more OO than most other).

What about NeXT? That's _supposed_ to be OO... 
Is there any way I could find out more in-depth about what the UI was
like? This sounds like an interesting machine. What exactly is meant by an
OO desktop? What about the Amiga? I've heard many people who've used it
say the same thing about it as you're saying about the Xerox machines, and
yet I have the feeling you won't agree.
 > 
> 
> Gruss
> Hans

----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From rcini at msn.com  Mon Dec 14 17:32:35 1998
From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Saw Ad for "Wierd Science" Computer
Message-ID: <001601be27ba$6e193a60$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>

Hello, all:

    While looking through 1984 Bytes. I came across an ad for the computer
used in the bedroom scene in "Wierd Science". It's the Memotech MTX512. It's
a sleek black unit and appears to be based on the Z80A.

    Does anyone know anything about these?

[  Rich Cini/WUGNET
[   ClubWin!/CW7
[   MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
[   Collector of "classic" computers
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/
<================   reply   separator  =================>






From rcini at msn.com  Mon Dec 14 17:34:35 1998
From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Commodore machines that never made it?
Message-ID: <001701be27ba$70292ea0$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>

While browsing early-84 Bytes, I came across two references to new Commodore
computers. One was the Z8000-based "Next Generation", which was to run
Concurent Unix. The other was a Series 264 machine.

Any info on these?

[  Rich Cini/WUGNET
[   ClubWin!/CW7
[   MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
[   Collector of "classic" computers
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/
<================   reply   separator  =================>






From jpero at pop.cgocable.net  Mon Dec 14 12:48:20 1998
From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Saw one...what is that?  TI printing terminal Silent 700.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981213224443.009697c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com>
Message-ID: <199812142342.SAA01879@mail.cgocable.net>

This, Ti terminal Silent 700 looks like a headless thick notebook 
with real keyboard on it, full width thermal printer built in, bunch 
of ports on backside, with 2 phone-like jacks, berg connectors.

What this for and its capabliites?

Jason D.
email: jpero@cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.


From eric at brouhaha.com  Mon Dec 14 18:19:11 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: 24x80 Standard? (was: Re: HX20)
In-Reply-To: <199812142024.UAA27223@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
	(Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de)
References: <199812141009.KAA05435@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>	(Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) <199812142024.UAA27223@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <19981215001911.18353.qmail@brouhaha.com>

I wrote:
> No.  I've seen 64-column text on typical mid-70s NTSC televisions, and it was
> abysmal.  The televisions had to be modified to remove their color trap
> in order to get reasonably sharp characters.

Hans replied:
> (Please, notice, I havn't talked about Colour TV)
> 
> First, basicly 70's tv had the same specs than todays.

No.  Modern TVs have *much* better Y/C separation.  Even the sets without comb
filters still are better than the mid-70s sets.  And the luminance bandwidth
of modern TVs is much improved.  We're comparing average televisions from the
mid 70s and present, not top-of-the-line models.

Even monochrome monitors had the color trap, which is what prevented
legible text display of much more than 64 columns.  And usually it was a
low-pass filter, rather than a notch filter.  It never was a comb filter.

Besides which, mid-70s TVs, monochrome or not, simply were not designed for
the horizontal bandwidth needed for good text display.

Apple's choice of a 40-column display was entirely correct given that they
were originally marketing it to people who would use it with a television.
Inexpensive video monitors weren't yet available.  Of my friends who bought
Apple ][ computers in the 1977 time frame, over half used the computer with
a television.  Most of the rest used Sanyo 9-inch or 12-inch monochrome
monitors, and only a few used color monitors.

IIRC, the Sanyo 9-inch monochrome monitor cost over $300 in 1977.

Eric


From eric at brouhaha.com  Mon Dec 14 18:20:26 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <199812142038.UAA29469@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
	(Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de)
References: <199812112331.PAA31140@oa.ptloma.edu> <199812142038.UAA29469@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <19981215002026.18367.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Hans wrote:
> Oh, before I forget - Also known as 8096 and 8096SK and SP9000.

The SuperPet SP9000 and the 8096 are not the same machine; the 8096 does
not have the extra 6809 processor.

Eric


From marvin at rain.org  Mon Dec 14 18:22:33 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Saw Ad for "Wierd Science" Computer
References: <001601be27ba$6e193a60$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>
Message-ID: <3675ABC9.85B1BFA6@rain.org>

Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote:
> 
> Hello, all:
> 
>     While looking through 1984 Bytes. I came across an ad for the computer
> used in the bedroom scene in "Wierd Science". It's the Memotech MTX512. It's
> a sleek black unit and appears to be based on the Z80A.
> 
>     Does anyone know anything about these?

Not too much.  I have one in mint condition that IIRC includes the manuals,
etc. I was given about a year ago but haven't done anything with it. 
Anything in particular you would like to know?


From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Mon Dec 14 18:35:08 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Commodore machines that never made it?
In-Reply-To: <001701be27ba$70292ea0$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> from "Richard A. Cini, Jr." at Dec 14, 98 06:34:35 pm
Message-ID: <199812150035.QAA04966@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From allisonp at world.std.com  Mon Dec 14 18:51:46 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
Message-ID: <199812150051.AA26589@world.std.com>

< _NOW_ c'mon boy, 20 years ago a 12" tube with 256 by
< 256 pixles b&w was considered as high resolution.

Not hardly.  That would eb 1978 and 512x256 mono would have been a real
low end board.  Cpmpucolor and several others were doing that but in 
color.

Allison



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 14 18:10:04 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Saw one...what is that?  TI printing terminal Silent 700.
In-Reply-To: <199812142342.SAA01879@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@pop.cgocable.net" at Dec 14, 98 06:48:20 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 14 18:16:40 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: <199812142202.WAA11996@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 14, 98 11:02:19 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 14 18:19:25 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Saw Ad for "Wierd Science" Computer
In-Reply-To: <001601be27ba$6e193a60$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> from "Richard A. Cini, Jr." at Dec 14, 98 06:32:35 pm
Message-ID: 

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From Watzman at ibm.net  Mon Dec 14 18:19:33 1998
From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
Message-ID: <01BE279C.B40720A0@slip-32-100-187-97.oh.us.ibm.net>

I believe that the 1602A is either a UART or a keyboard encoder.

Early terminals were built in one of two ways, either hard wired pure discreet TTL logic (such as the ADM-3) or as microprocessor based terminals, often with an 8008.  Using a uP was much more expensive and was usually done only in very high end ASCII terminals or (almost always) in 3270 type terminals (connected to IBM mainframes via a coax cable interface).

Barry Watzman


----------
From:  Sam Ismail [SMTP:dastar@ncal.verio.com]
Sent:  Monday, December 14, 1998 10:12 AM
To:  Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject:  Re: Keywords are not false advertising

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:

> > I'm looking at the manual for this thing.  It was a pretty righteous
> > terminal in its day.  Maximum transmission rate is 9600 baud.  It had a
> > video out so you could hook up an external monitor.  According to the
> > schematic, the biggest chip on the I/O board is a TR1402A or 1602A (it has
> > both numbers written on it).  I have no idea what this is.  But there's no
> > 8008 in there.  I think I checked it out when I first got it, and you
> > would've tried to get more than $10 out of me if it did I'm sure. ;)
> 
> There are several terminals made by Beehive. Mine must be a later one - 
> it has an 8008 in it (I am not sure what the UART is), a separate 
> keyboard, but no joystick. Its main claim to fame is that it has a Hebrew 
> character set in it as well as the normal one.

The one I have is circa 1974.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]





From Watzman at ibm.net  Mon Dec 14 18:25:28 1998
From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Saw one...what is that?  TI printing terminal Silent 700.
Message-ID: <01BE279C.B9A17420@slip-32-100-187-97.oh.us.ibm.net>


The silent 700's were mostly used for time-sharing remote computing in the 70's.  Some models (there were quite a few of them) had built-in modems (acoustic 300 baud for the most part).  They were also used as local consoles (keyboard/printer).  I believe that the printers were 30 chars/sec, but they may have been somewhat faster, perhaps as much as 120 cps.  For their day, they were considered high-end and very desirable.

The look was as described, kind of like a laptop with no screen, or like a very compact electric typewriter.

Barry Watzman


----------
From:  jpero@pop.cgocable.net [SMTP:jpero@pop.cgocable.net]
Sent:  Monday, December 14, 1998 1:48 PM
To:  Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject:  Saw one...what is that?  TI printing terminal Silent 700.

This, Ti terminal Silent 700 looks like a headless thick notebook 
with real keyboard on it, full width thermal printer built in, bunch 
of ports on backside, with 2 phone-like jacks, berg connectors.

What this for and its capabliites?

Jason D.
email: jpero@cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.




From Watzman at ibm.net  Mon Dec 14 18:34:37 1998
From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: tektronics 503 scope
Message-ID: <01BE279C.BB438B60@slip-32-100-187-97.oh.us.ibm.net>

The 465 series are generally considered to be excellent scopes.  Tony was right, $600 is about the going rate, neither a bargain nor a ripoff (depending to a degree on the condition of the scope).  When looking at a square wave, it is normal for the horizontal tops and bottoms to be brighter/thicker than the vertical segments.  The linear speed of the beam when drawing the vertical lines is MANY times (sometimes hundreds or thousands of times) faster (in mm/second of beam travel) than when drawing the horizontal tops and bottoms, which results in a difference in the nature of the display.

Barry Watzman


----------
From:  Tony Duell [SMTP:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk]
Sent:  Monday, December 14, 1998 2:29 PM
To:  Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject:  Re: tektronics 503 scope

> 
> So, what's your (or anyone else's, for that matter) opinion on the Tek
> 465B?  I bought a used one as a Christmas gift for my partner; with two

_Very_ nice portable 'scopes. I never owned one, but I've used the 465, 
466, 453, etc and I like them a lot. 

> probes, an original manual, and shipping, it was around $600.  It

That is about the 'going rate', I think. Not a bargain price IMHO, but 
not high either. And considering that's what you'd pay for a cheap new 
no-name 'scope, I'd much rather have the Tek.

> appears to work fine except that when I connect the probes to the
> square-wave calibration output, the horizontal portions of the waves
> seem to be much "thicker" vertically than they should be.  The vertical

Does the thickness depend on the vertical attenuation (is it noise coming 
in from somewhere)? Can you resolve any structure to it by fiddling with 
the timebase (in other words could it be noise on the supply lines from 
somewhere - noise which almost certainly isn't at line frequency). What 
does the spot look like in X-Y mode with no signal?

> Anyone know if there's another adjustment I'm missing?  I've only got
> the user's guide - not the service manual. =20

I can't think of another adjustment, but it's worth getting the service 
manual and going through the performance checks in there. And also 
checking for supply ripple, etc (yes, a second 'scope is worth having at 
this point...)

-tony





From Watzman at ibm.net  Mon Dec 14 18:50:42 1998
From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Comterm Hyperion - Boot disk?
Message-ID: <01BE279C.BED58BC0@slip-32-100-187-97.oh.us.ibm.net>

Both 320k (8 sectors/track) and 360k (9 sectors/track) were used in a number of MS-DOS systems in the early 80's, and it's quite possible that any given MS-DOS implementation will support both of them and will properly recognize which way a disk is formatted through parameters in either the FAT or the boot sector.



----------
From:  Don Maslin [SMTP:donm@cts.com]
Sent:  Monday, December 14, 1998 6:34 AM
To:  Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject:  Re: Comterm Hyperion - Boot disk?

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 Innfogra@aol.com wrote:

> Looking at the June 83 ad for the Hyperion I noticed that it has 320K drives
> instead of 360K. If I remember right the 320K format is 7 sector not 8 sector
> drives. 

No, it is 8 sector instead of 9 sector disk format.  The drives are no 
different!
						 - don
 
> I propose an experiment even though I too, believe it takes a special version
> of DOS. Get an old PC and format a DOS disk at the 320K format using ver 2.11.
> Transfer the system and see what happens.
> 
> Paxton
> 

    donm@cts.com
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
    Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives
         Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society
       Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology.
     Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard  (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
        see old system support at  http://www.psyber.com/~tcj
visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cws86.kyamk.fi/mirrors/cpm
   	 with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm






From dpeschel at u.washington.edu  Mon Dec 14 19:35:21 1998
From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Saw one...what is that?  TI printing terminal Silent 700.
In-Reply-To: <199812142342.SAA01879@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@pop.cgocable.net" at Dec 14, 98 06:48:20 pm
Message-ID: <199812150135.RAA28409@saul9.u.washington.edu>

> This, Ti terminal Silent 700 looks like a headless thick notebook 
> with real keyboard on it, full width thermal printer built in, bunch 
> of ports on backside, with 2 phone-like jacks, berg connectors.
> 
> What this for and its capabliites?

It's for connecting to other computers.  As your subject says, it's a terminal
(like the VT100, H-19, Wyse, or whatever) with a printer.  There is no CRT or
screen, as you can probably see.  The ports and phone-line jacks are for
attaching your serial device.  (I'm pretty sure there's a modem built into
the TI -- probably 300 or at most 1200 baud.)

I'm not an expert on these things, but I'm sure the capabilities are pretty
straightforward.  (If you don't have a CRT, you're limited in what you can do:
print things, tab, backspace, carriage return, line feed, possibly half line
feed, possibly reverse and half reverse line feeds).  I think an APL character
set is an option.

What do you mean by "berg connectors"?

-- Derek


From cmcmanis at freegate.com  Mon Dec 14 19:47:21 1998
From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: 465B RE: tektronics 503 scope
In-Reply-To: <01BE279C.BB438B60@slip-32-100-187-97.oh.us.ibm.net>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981214173150.0093d100@mcmanis.com>

I've got a 465B, its been my "main" scope for about 10 years now. This is
an excellent unit and I reccomend it to anyone. In general, most
calibration labs will still calibrate them for about $80. My only
"complaint" (and it isn't much of one) is the phenomena noted by the
original poster that the traces are somewhat "fat." 

In general you can use the focus adjustment to get the spot size as small
as possible and then you will need to adjust the intensity based on the
sweep rate to get a trace that is thin enough to make adequate measurements
from. This isn't incorrect behaviour it is simply how analog scopes work. 

--Chuck

P.S. %600 is a good price for the scope including probes, a set of 100Mhz
Tek probes (they have a special ring indicator so that the 1x/10x lamps
light correctly) are often $100 - $150 



From lwalker at mail.interlog.com  Mon Dec 14 15:34:45 1998
From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <199812132236.XAA29220@iaehv.IAEhv.nl>
Message-ID: <199812150235.VAA11146@smtp.interlog.com>

On 13 Dec 98 at 23:36, Kees Stravers wrote:

>   
> X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
> 
> How about the Philips P2000 family? I have not seen messages about
> those machines on the list. Z80 system, 48K RAM, 16K ROM in a cart
> so it was easy to change programs, micro cassette recorder that was
> operated by the computer so no fiddling with buttons, floppy drives
> optional, video 40x24 color (viewdata/teletext character set) or 
> 80x24 monochrome. Started life as a dedicated word processor, BASIC 
> cart added later. There was a disk operating system that could work
> with the programs originally meant for cassette use only, and CP/M
> was available. P2000T was the 40x24 cassette version, P2000M was the 
> 80x24 disk version. There also was a P2000C, which was a 'portable'
> machine like the Kaypro's, but it ran CP/M only and was not compatible
> with the P2000T/M. AFAIK they were all developed and produced in
> the Philips factories in Austria.
> 
> Picture of a P2000M at
> http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/sroom.html
> Picture of a P2000C at
> http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/lroom.html
> 
> Kees
> 
 Hi Kees, your pages are always interesting. Haven't visited in a while.
Nice to see the additions.
 You mention that the P2000 started as a dedicated WP. Could this have
been the Philips Micom 2000 ? If so, any other info ?

ciao		larry
lwalker@interlog.com


From rcini at msn.com  Mon Dec 14 20:49:20 1998
From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Private file area on my Web Site
Message-ID: <005b01be27d5$a61eb460$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>

    To those who were interested in access to my private file area:

    I've think that I've fixed the authentication problems, so outside
access should work. Please be patient -- I'm new to Web site administration.

    Please e-mail me again with the following as the subject header:

        **SO:Private File Area

    Each person will be issued a user name and password. I need full first
and last names, please (in order to keep with internal naming conventions).

    And forget secure e-mail -- no one uses it. Another $10 sent to
/dev/null...

[  Rich Cini/WUGNET
[   ClubWin!/CW7
[   MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
[   Collector of "classic" computers
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/
<================   reply   separator  =================>








From gregorym at cadvision.com  Mon Dec 14 20:22:38 1998
From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Saw one...what is that?  TI printing terminal Silent 700.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19981214192236.0068e780@cadvision.com>

It's a portable data terminal, with the thermal printer replacing a display
screen. They had built-in modems (at least my model 707 does) and could use
rechargeable battery packs or AC power. Truly the "laptop computers" of
their day. They were commonly used by salesmen, engineers, etc; anyone who
might have to dial in to a mainframe while on the road. Some selected specs:

Printing rate: 45 cps, bidirectional
Modem transmission speed: 300 bps
Weight: 2.04 kg (includes one roll of thermal paper)
Power consumption: 35 W maximum at 90 Vac
Operating environment: Temperature: 10 deg C to 40 deg C
	Maximum altitude (!) 3000 m

Feel free to email me if you want more info.

Mark Gregory



At 06:48 PM 12/14/98 +0000, you wrote:
>This, Ti terminal Silent 700 looks like a headless thick notebook 
>with real keyboard on it, full width thermal printer built in, bunch 
>of ports on backside, with 2 phone-like jacks, berg connectors.
>
>What this for and its capabliites?
>
>Jason D.
>email: jpero@cgocable.net
>Pero, Jason D.
>
>


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Mon Dec 14 22:32:11 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Saw one...what is that?  TI printing terminal Silent 700.
In-Reply-To: <199812142342.SAA01879@mail.cgocable.net>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 jpero@pop.cgocable.net wrote:

> This, Ti terminal Silent 700 looks like a headless thick notebook 
> with real keyboard on it, full width thermal printer built in, bunch 
> of ports on backside, with 2 phone-like jacks, berg connectors.
> 
> What this for and its capabliites?

Its a simple printing dumb terminal, a more modern version of the ASR-33
teletype.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com  Mon Dec 14 22:40:26 1998
From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Neat time-wasters for DEC enthusiasts
Message-ID: 


Ok, I may be a little slow and everyone else on the list has been to these
pages...

The first is about retro-computing on digital.com's main site:

http://www.digital.com/info/DTJN02/DTJN02HM.HTM


The second isn't so nicely packaged, it's just a loose set of documents
that are (I assume) intended just for this facility. I personally found
some interesting stuff by hunting through the trees, but then I am like an
empty vessel when it comes to these systems. But neat documents, like the
RSX-11M System Generation Guide...

http://www-ols.fnal.gov/ols/documents/docpn.html


If anyone hunting through the latter site finds anything of real interest,
I'd love to hear about it...


Aaron



From jpero at pop.cgocable.net  Mon Dec 14 17:47:43 1998
From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Saw one...what is that?  TI printing terminal Silent 700.
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812142342.SAA01879@mail.cgocable.net>
Message-ID: <199812150441.XAA03250@mail.cgocable.net>

> Date:          Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:32:11 -0800 (PST)
> Reply-to:      classiccmp@u.washington.edu
> From:          Sam Ismail 
> To:            "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
> Subject:       Re: Saw one...what is that?  TI printing terminal Silent 700.
> X-To:          Discussion re-collecting of classic computers 

> On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 jpero@pop.cgocable.net wrote:

> Its a simple printing dumb terminal, a more modern version of the ASR-33
> teletype.

Hey,  is that really speaks bandot code?  If so, that would be 
perfect TDD!  (That would be good backup for my main TTD.)  Fax paper 
roll is still obtainable anyway.

Does not this has video output connection at all?

Jason D.

> 
> Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Always being hassled by the man.
 
email: jpero@cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.


From zmerch at 30below.com  Mon Dec 14 22:54:11 1998
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Mosaic/Netscape
In-Reply-To: <199812130155.SAA31717@calico.litterbox.com>
References: <36730DA9.A21147D5@geocities.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981214235411.00953b30@mail.30below.com>

At 06:55 PM 12/12/98 -0700, you wrote:
>netscape has older versions, but they're hard to find on their download site.

Nah...

Go to netscape's web page, click on download, click on download browsers,
scroll down to nearly the bottom and click on "Netscape Product Archive"...

Or, here's the direct URL:

ftp://archive:oldies@archive.netscape.com/archive/index.html

(granted, the URL is weird... but it works!)

Be warned... I think Netscape's downgraded their archive equipment... the
best speed I can get from them (off of my T1) was roughly 2K per sec, and
the data would come in spurts...

The oldest they have there is Netscape 2.0; methinks I have a copy of x86
1.6 floating 'round somewhere, tho.

If you really need it *that* bad, lemme know.

Thanks, and HTH,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger

Happy Holidaze!


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Mon Dec 14 22:50:13 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Saw one...what is that?  TI printing terminal Silent 700.
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:

> There were many varients. An internal modem was one option that might 
> explain the phone jacks. There was (I believe) also an ASR version of one 
> of the desktop models that had a box on top with 2 digital cassette 
> drives in it. You could copy from one tape to the other, insert 
> characters from the keyboard, copy the tape to the line or to the 
> printer, etc. Basically use the cassettes like the paper tape on most ASR 
> machines. 

Aha!  That makes sense.  I have one of these, and it was one of the first
things in my collection.  I always wondered what the cassettes were for.
Now that I know, I have a new found appreciation for that machine.  Cool!

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Dec 14 23:08:01 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Neat time-wasters for DEC enthusiasts
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>The second isn't so nicely packaged, it's just a loose set of documents
>that are (I assume) intended just for this facility. I personally found
>some interesting stuff by hunting through the trees, but then I am like an
>empty vessel when it comes to these systems. But neat documents, like the
>RSX-11M System Generation Guide...
>
>http://www-ols.fnal.gov/ols/documents/docpn.html
>
>
>If anyone hunting through the latter site finds anything of real interest,
>I'd love to hear about it...
>
>
>Aaron

WOW, thank you for letting us know about this!!!  This looks to be crammed
full of all kinds of interesting reading.  I've already snagged a couple
meg of documents (love this new fast line).  There is all kinds of stuff on
RSX-11, RT-11, VMS, 4.3BSD/VAX, etc.  The Intro to RT-11 5.2 sounds
interesting.

The one down side is that while they are text files they all end in .DOC,
which Netscrape seems conviced it has to download instead of viewing.
Anyone know how to fix that?  I don't think I've ever run across a .DOC
file on the web that was actually MS Word, but find a LOT of text files
like that.  I'd like to simply be able to open them in the web browser!

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Mon Dec 14 23:04:44 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Saw one...what is that?  TI printing terminal Silent 700.
In-Reply-To: <199812150441.XAA03250@mail.cgocable.net>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 jpero@pop.cgocable.net wrote:

> Hey,  is that really speaks bandot code?  If so, that would be 
> perfect TDD!  (That would be good backup for my main TTD.)  Fax paper 
> roll is still obtainable anyway.

I don't know.  My guess is that it doesn't however, unless there is some
select switch that I missed.

> Does not this has video output connection at all?

Nope.  Strictly printed output.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From zmerch at 30below.com  Mon Dec 14 23:24:50 1998
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Value
In-Reply-To: <36742025.9B94C322@rain.org>
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981215002450.00937210@mail.30below.com>

At 12:14 PM 12/13/98 -0800, Marvin  wrote:

[snip]

>Heading off your comments that this is an unusual situation (which I think
>it is), certain areas have a higher concentration of technical types than
>others, university towns, silicon valley, Boston area, etc.  Things are much
>more likely to be found in those areas than areas like, lets say, the
>Michigan Upper Pennisula (sp?.)  So what is the difference in availability
>of something between the two areas?  How would that affect the price (value)
>of a given item in the two areas?

Actually, it's possessive:

Michigan's Upper Peninsula,

but you're absolutely right! Being the foremost owner of CoCo stuff 'round
here (Eastern Upper Peninsula - Sault Ste. Marie), I can honestly say that
there were a lot of Tandy's in this area, as there's been a RS here for a
long time, and two across the border in Sault, Ontario, Canada.

There were a few Atari's floating around, but I've only every seen 1 ST ( a
Mega ST 4) until I bought mine (from a cousin who lives in Florida) which a
radio station recently parted with, and 4 Amigas... 3 of which are owned by
the mgr. of said radio station, 2 of which he was ready to junk... 'till he
met me! He's supposed to drop off 2 Amiga 1200's "when he finds/fills the
boxes."

Common classics are hard to come by around here -- the closest thing to
kinda rare I have is (that I know of):

Trackball for an Atari 5200 (serial #786)
Commodore B-128 (local college garage sale)
2 Superbrains (local college garage sale; anybody have boot disks???)
Tandy 600 (sent to me by a good friend in California 'cause it didn't work)

I honestly don't know if these are actually rare... almost everything up
here is rare (to me) and all of this wild, wicked stuff like OSI
Challengers, Ohio Scientific, and who knows what... are all just pipe
dreams to me. :-(

To be honest, I'd give my left nut to stumble across a PDP or some VAX
equipment, but that's still cheaper to have it shipped (a bare minimum of)
300 miles truck freight to my house.

(To be honest, if someone in Detroit is giving/selling some... I *can*
justify a roadtrip to my wife there...

Me: Dear, would you like to take a weekend and visit your Uncle???
Wifey: Sure!!! Let's Go!
...
Wifey: Dear, why are you hitching up the trailer???
Me:  Trailer??? What Trailer???

California is a definate no-go... and (IMHO) most of the fun stuff
available is from there or other areas 800+ miles from home.)

Oh well... just my little locale rant... I'll shut up now. ;-)

Thanks for the bandwidth,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger

Happy Holidaze!!!


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Mon Dec 14 23:20:47 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Neat time-wasters for DEC enthusiasts
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote:

> The one down side is that while they are text files they all end in .DOC,
> which Netscrape seems conviced it has to download instead of viewing.
> Anyone know how to fix that?  I don't think I've ever run across a .DOC
> file on the web that was actually MS Word, but find a LOT of text files
> like that.  I'd like to simply be able to open them in the web browser!

In Communicator (the version I have is 4.6) goto Edit:Preferences, then
goto Navigator:Applications.  Scroll down to Microsoft Word documents and
hit the Edit button.  Change the MIME type to text/html then click on
"Handled by Netscape (internal)" (either hit tab once you've entered
"text/html" or hit the OK button then go edit it again to select this).
Once you've done this then Netscape will always try to view .DOC files as
ASCII, even if it is a word document.  To download a true word document
you would need to press Shift when you click on the object on the screen
and Netscape will pop-up a Save-As window.  Or you can always go back and
edit the file type as an application/ms-word.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From rexstout at uswest.net  Mon Dec 14 23:22:10 1998
From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Neat time-wasters for DEC enthusiasts
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

>The one down side is that while they are text files they all end in .DOC,
>which Netscrape seems conviced it has to download instead of viewing.
>Anyone know how to fix that?  I don't think I've ever run across a .DOC
>file on the web that was actually MS Word, but find a LOT of text files
>like that.  I'd like to simply be able to open them in the web browser!

You should be able to get past that little bug by deleting the .DOC entry
and adding that suffix to the text entry.

--------------------------------------------------------------
| http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers |
| http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek     |
|   orham@qth.net   list admin                KD7BCY         |
|   ham-mac@qth.net                        Portland, OR      |
--------------------------------------------------------------




From erd at infinet.com  Mon Dec 14 23:28:41 1998
From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Value
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981215002450.00937210@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Dec 15, 98 00:24:50 am
Message-ID: <199812150528.AAA05101@user2.infinet.com>

> 
> At 12:14 PM 12/13/98 -0800, Marvin  wrote:
>
> ...and 4 Amigas... 3 of which are owned by the mgr. of said radio station,
> 2 of which he was ready to junk... 'till he met me! He's supposed to drop
> off 2 Amiga 1200's "when he finds/fills the boxes."

If you know of anybody else disposing of Amiga 1200's, I'd love to know
about it.  It's one of the models I _don't_ have.

> To be honest, I'd give my left nut to stumble across a PDP or some VAX
> equipment, but that's still cheaper to have it shipped (a bare minimum of)
> 300 miles truck freight to my house.

MIchigan shouldn't be any worse than Ohio for proximity of old stuff.  I've
managed to score the odd VAX and even the occasional PDP-8, but not in the
past five years :-(  PDP-11's are much more common.  We had a rash of 
PRO-350's on the flea market circuit for $25-$40 a few years ago.  I got 
a PRO-350 with (original) Venix disks.  Not only were they free, but the
guy *dropped them off*, too.

Mostly, I run across stuff by blind luck.  Sometimes, people call me to
tell me that they are disposing of stuff at work, but not often.  I'm
attempting to rescue some TC11's and TU55's at Lucent, but their rigid
disposal policy might consign them to the crusher.  :-(

Keep searching, and if you ever have too many Amiga 1200's, I'm here to
help. 

-ethan


From red at bears.org  Mon Dec 14 23:37:11 1998
From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: DG One remnants
Message-ID: 


Hi guys.

My dad just got a DG One through his shop; he threw it out before I could
catch him.  

At any rate, he has a few of the accessories left over from it. I know he
has at least the carrying case and he mentioned having a spare battery. I
should think he probably has a few more bits leftover, too. If anybody's
looking for accessories for their One, let me know and I'll get you in
touch with him.

Let's make sure that next time he doesn't throw that kind of stuff away.
(:

-- 
ok
r.					r e d  @  b e a r s . o r g
					===========================
					[ urs longa | vita brevis ]



From lfb107 at psu.edu  Mon Dec 14 23:48:27 1998
From: lfb107 at psu.edu (Les Berry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Saw Ad for "Wierd Science" Computer
Message-ID: <199812150544.AAA108534@f04n01.cac.psu.edu>

At 04:22 PM 12/14/98 -0800, Marvin wrote:
>Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote:
>> 
>> Hello, all:
>> 
>>     While looking through 1984 Bytes. I came across an ad for the computer
>> used in the bedroom scene in "Wierd Science". It's the Memotech MTX512. It's
>> a sleek black unit and appears to be based on the Z80A.
>> 
>>     Does anyone know anything about these?
>
>Not too much.  I have one in mint condition that IIRC includes the manuals,
>etc. I was given about a year ago but haven't done anything with it. 
>Anything in particular you would like to know?

Yeah, can it create babes from dolls?  ; )

Les



From zmerch at 30below.com  Tue Dec 15 00:19:36 1998
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Remote Locations... (was: Re: Value
In-Reply-To: <199812150528.AAA05101@user2.infinet.com>
References: <3.0.1.32.19981215002450.00937210@mail.30below.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981215011936.00937a20@mail.30below.com>

At 12:28 AM 12/15/98 -0500, ethan wrote:

>> At 12:14 PM 12/13/98 -0800, Marvin  wrote:
>>
>> ...and 4 Amigas... 3 of which are owned by the mgr. of said radio station,
>> 2 of which he was ready to junk... 'till he met me! He's supposed to drop
>> off 2 Amiga 1200's "when he finds/fills the boxes."
>
>If you know of anybody else disposing of Amiga 1200's, I'd love to know
>about it.  It's one of the models I _don't_ have.

Oh, I'd certainly rather had is 4000T... but that was "over his (and his
wife's) dead bodies; etc...

If I actually find more than these two, I'll keep you in mind.

>> To be honest, I'd give my left nut to stumble across a PDP or some VAX
>> equipment, but that's still cheaper to have it shipped (a bare minimum of)
>> 300 miles truck freight to my house.
>
>MIchigan shouldn't be any worse than Ohio for proximity of old stuff.

Ah, but remember: Michigan is 394 miles high, and damn near as wide!!!
Detroit, Ann Arbor, Flint, Saginaw... sure, but the northernmost exit to
Bay City is 230 Miles away. From Bay City to Sault Ste. Marie you have:

Farmland, Gaylord, Farmland, the Mackinac Bridge, Farmland, the Sault.

I have nothing against farmers (spent 4 years in the FFA myself)... but not
many farmers I know have Vaxen at their garage sales... (Now, if you need a
*hay baler...* ;-)))

Heading straight west from the Sault, you have:

the Sault, Hiawatha National Forest, Marquette, even less, a whole bunch of
Wisconsin that looked just like Michigan, then Duluth, Minnesota.

Otherwise, Green Bay / Bay City are roughly 4 hours away each... that's the
best I can do. 

Sillycon Valley this ain't...

(BTW, for you history buffs, Sault Ste. Marie is the 3rd oldest city in the
USA... founded in 1668.)

Yes, again I ramble...

Roger "Merch" Merchberger
Happy Holidaze!


From svs at ropnet.ru  Tue Dec 15 00:40:59 1998
From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Saw one...what is that?  TI printing terminal Silent 700.
In-Reply-To: ; from Tony Duell on Tue, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:10:04AM +0000
References: <199812142342.SAA01879@mail.cgocable.net> 
Message-ID: <19981215094059.06316@firepower>

On Tue, Dec 15, 1998 at 12:10:04AM +0000, Tony Duell wrote:

> There was (I believe) also an ASR version of one
> of the desktop models that had a box on top with 2 digital cassette 
> drives in it. You could copy from one tape to the other, insert 
> characters from the keyboard, copy the tape to the line or to the 
> printer, etc. Basically use the cassettes like the paper tape on most ASR 
> machines. 

Do you have manuals for this version?  Can it write data to tape as they
arrive?  (If so, I could use this terminal as a log device.)

-- 
Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru


From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca  Tue Dec 15 03:39:37 1998
From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Saw Ad for "Wierd Science" Computer
In-Reply-To: <001601be27ba$6e193a60$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote:

> Hello, all:
> 
>     While looking through 1984 Bytes. I came across an ad for the computer
> used in the bedroom scene in "Wierd Science". It's the Memotech MTX512. It's
> a sleek black unit and appears to be based on the Z80A.
> 
>     Does anyone know anything about these?

I know a little, though I've never seen one.

The University I go to has a book in its library, entitled "Memotech
Computing", by Ian Sinclair, Granada Publishing, 1984.

I copied as much "useful" information out of that as I could between
borrowing it and returning it.  Mostly this includes the parts of the
BASIC that I found interesting, as well as some notes on the "Noddy" text
processing system.

I also found a comparison article in Popular Science entitled "PS
Showdown: 7 Top Home Computers", comparing the Apple //c, Atari 800XL,
Coleco Adam, Commodore 64, IBM PCjr, Memotech MTX512, and Radio Shack
Color Computer 2, in the limited domain of word processing.  This is in
the November 1984 issue, pages 108-112, 115, 116, and 134.  Not much info,
but at least there's an excellent photo of the MTX512 and the DMX80
printer (also black).

There was also some information on a web page at (hopefully this is
correct):

http://pcsupp1.cc.rl.ac.uk/home/chris/hchof/memotech.html

I have no idea if that page is still there.  The address might even be
wrong because I think I grabbed it from a capture of a Lynx session (I
didn't have a graphical browser running on my Amiga yet).

Anyhoo...  the basic info I've got is as follows:

	MTX500 and MTX512 - personal computer

         Processor: Z80A (4MHz)
      RAM Min, Max: 32K (MTX500) or 64K (MTX512), expandable to 512K
      Included ROM: BASIC, assembler/disassembler, terminal emulator,
                    "NODDY" text processing system
         I/O Ports: cassette (standard phono)
          Keyboard: typewriter-style
                OS: CP/M option available
      Display Type: composite monitor, television
       Screen Size: 39? x 24 chars.
          Graphics: 256 x 192 pixels, 16 colours, 32 single-colour
                    sprites, redefinable characters
             Sound: 3 channels of sound, 1 noise generator
        Dimensions:
            Weight: "heavy"
      Mass Storage
          Included:
      Power Supply: external brick

       Peripherals: cassette
                    5.25" and 8" floppy drives
                    hard drive
                    DMX80 dot-matrix printer

      Release date: 1984

Not a lot of info on the machine, but pretty good for something I'll
likely never see.

I have quite a bit of info on the BASIC, but it's in AmigaGuide format.

(I wish I still had the kind of free time that allowed me to fish out and
transcribe that info. )

-- 
Doug Spence
ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca
http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/



From gram at cnct.com  Tue Dec 15 03:54:44 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Saw one...what is that?  TI printing terminal Silent 700.
References: 
Message-ID: <367631E4.B65482EC@cnct.com>

Sam Ismail wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 jpero@pop.cgocable.net wrote:
> 
> > Hey,  is that really speaks bandot code?  If so, that would be
> > perfect TDD!  (That would be good backup for my main TTD.)  Fax paper
> > roll is still obtainable anyway.
> 
> I don't know.  My guess is that it doesn't however, unless there is some
> select switch that I missed.
> 
> > Does not this has video output connection at all?
> 
> Nope.  Strictly printed output.

Yep. When I was attending Foothill College in 78-79, about half the
terminals on campus were Silent 700s (15), along with 15 HP 2640As,
a DTC daisy-wheel terminal and a Tek 4014 (I think -- it's been a
long time and I didn't use the Tek much).  Those in the library and
the main computer lab were connected to the HP 2000A at 300 bps,
while those (4 each HP and TI) in the room next to the room holding
the CPU blazed at 1200.  (There was a GE Terminet 300 next to the
CPU as the console, and a Teletype 33 for punching paper tapes in
the machine room itself).  I hated and avoided the TI printers as
best I could after the time I left my printouts on the dashboard of
my car and the background faded into the foreground.  Besides, I
liked the off-line editing on the HP tubes -- did my first "word
processing" with that so I could print my papers on the DTC.  An
advantage to being a tutor was that I had unlimited minutes on my
account and off-hours access to the lab.

The TIs and other terminals used external modems as I recall.  And
ASCII was the only encoding I noticed, though I didn't investigate
in any depth.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From Innfogra at aol.com  Tue Dec 15 05:38:29 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 12/14/98 1:55:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, yowza@yowza.com
writes:

>  I think of it as:
>  	Star ran on the 8010 (codenamed Dandelion)
>  	Viewpoint ran on the 6085 (codenamed Daybreak)
>  

All of the 8010s we got in were running Viewpoint 1.0. The 6085s were running
a mix of Viewpoint 1.X or 2.0. We called the 8010s "Stars" also, not knowing
any difference. Of course this was 5 years ago.
Paxton


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Dec 15 07:23:28 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <367592D5.54FA15C@digiweb.com>
Message-ID: <199812151224.MAA13981@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

>> > > > > And by the way, to catch up with the title - is there any
>> > > > > other Commodore B500 around, or a Pascal Microengine ?

>> > Pascal Microengine aka Pascaline, we have one with some docs and disks.

>> Pascaline ? Never heared of - do we talk about the machine
>> that executed UCSD p-code via a WD chipset as 'native' code ?

> The same. The machine has the name Pascaline in script on the front and
> the manula witrh it is by WD. 2 8" floppies and a single boeard
> computer.

The 8" FDs are in a seperate box - at least mine - and
on the silver and black front panel I have only the
words Pascal Micro Engine. Could it be that there is
a special french version ? at least for the labeling ?

> > BTW: Did I already tell you that you are a _very_ nasty guy ?
> > I always thought I had some realy rare thing - and now ... sigh..

> That's all part of this game right? ;-)

got me.

> > P.S.: Maybe we should realy meet and exchange some informations.
> > I have about 15 or so disks with programms and some 60 cm of
> > manuals for the micro engines.

> Ahh, yes indeed. I was in Munich while you were at VCF so I did not
> contact you but it is likely that I will be visiting every 3 or 4 months
> (the company I work for has an office and several clients near Munich).
> Next time I visit I will be sure and let you know...

Lets see, I will be in Bern in january, maybe I could add
a short jump to your place.

Servus
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Dec 15 07:23:28 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <19981215002026.18367.qmail@brouhaha.com>
References: <199812142038.UAA29469@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>	(Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de)
Message-ID: <199812151224.MAA13978@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > Oh, before I forget - Also known as 8096 and 8096SK and SP9000.

> The SuperPet SP9000 and the 8096 are not the same machine; the 8096 does
> not have the extra 6809 processor.

They are - the diference is just the added 6809 board.
The board was also available as add on, so there are
some SuperPETs out there that say 8096 on the front
label. Even Comodore Germany sold some MMF900 with
the label 8096 on the front panel.

Comodores labeling policy is somewhat confusing
(If we agree tto call it a policy :).

Gruss
H.

--
Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh.
H.Achternbusch


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Dec 15 07:23:28 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: 24x80 Standard? (was: Re: HX20)
In-Reply-To: <19981215001911.18353.qmail@brouhaha.com>
References: <199812142024.UAA27223@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>	(Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de)
Message-ID: <199812151224.MAA13965@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> I wrote:
> > No.  I've seen 64-column text on typical mid-70s NTSC televisions, and it was
> > abysmal.  The televisions had to be modified to remove their color trap
> > in order to get reasonably sharp characters.

> Hans replied:
> > (Please, notice, I havn't talked about Colour TV)

> > First, basicly 70's tv had the same specs than todays.

> No.  Modern TVs have *much* better Y/C separation.  Even the sets without comb
> filters still are better than the mid-70s sets.  And the luminance bandwidth
> of modern TVs is much improved.  We're comparing average televisions from the
> mid 70s and present, not top-of-the-line models.

Please, I'm _NOT_ talking about the TV sets, I'm talking about
TV specs - the standards about the TV signal - and they haven't
changed for the basic B&W and colour signaly since the 70s.


> [...]
> Besides which, mid-70s TVs, monochrome or not, simply were not designed for
> the horizontal bandwidth needed for good text display.

That has nothing to do with bandwide of the TV set - they where
able to work on and display the frequencies defined for TV, and
these are the limits - not the TV set - Even in the early 70's
B&W TV tubes and electronics where already better than needed
for the TV signal.

But if the signal definition doesn't allow a frequency high
enough for 80 columne display, no TV, not a 500 Mark nor a
10,000 Mark TV can display it. No cheap one from 1970 and
no SuperDuperHighThingy TV from 1998. You just can't stick
a 10 MHz signal within a 5 MHz chanal. The TV modulation
prohibits this.

> Apple's choice of a 40-column display was entirely correct given that they
> were originally marketing it to people who would use it with a television.
> Inexpensive video monitors weren't yet available.  Of my friends who bought
> Apple ][ computers in the 1977 time frame, over half used the computer with
> a television.  Most of the rest used Sanyo 9-inch or 12-inch monochrome
> monitors, and only a few used color monitors.

I did the same - my first display on the Apple][ was a 1968
build B&W TV (our old family TV, I got it in 1975 after we
had our first colour TV). 

> IIRC, the Sanyo 9-inch monochrome monitor cost over $300 in 1977.

Jep, the prices have been around this in Germany. A friend of
mine was lucky - he dumpster dived a scraped 13" survilanve
Monitor - The best screen in the neighborhood.

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Dec 15 07:29:51 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812142202.WAA11996@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 14, 98 11:02:19 pm
Message-ID: <199812151230.MAA14716@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > > In fact the PERQ 1 considerablly exceeded that spec. Just doing graphics, 
> > > it could manage 10 full-screen bit-blits per second (!). Something that 
> > > few PCs could manage (or even can manage?)
> > Today its possible - Memory to Memory transfer using
> > PCI is above 40 MB/s and thats well for a 4 MegPix
> > display.

> Remember a bit-blit involves a little processing (ANDing or ORing 2 
> bitmaps, maybe having to align them with a shifter). 

Jep, the hurdle is the memory transfer - just remember,
The CPUs are already running at a multiple of the bus
clock ...

> OK, A PC _now_ can do it. A PC 19 years ago (when the PERQ came out), or 
> even one 10 years ago would have had problems...

Exactly my point - you're running open doors.

> Mind you, the Whitechapel MG1 has a graphics processor that's bit-serial 
> (makes a sort of twisted sense to handle bitmaps this way), and it was 
> actually slower than using the 32016 processor to do the operation...

Could it work paralell with the CPU ? If yes, using it
was still smarter - only if you don't have to look for
speed anything is better done with one CPU (I still can't
get the idea that all junk has to be done via the main CPU).

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Dec 15 07:43:45 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Saw Ad for "Wierd Science" Computer
In-Reply-To: <001601be27ba$6e193a60$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>
Message-ID: <199812151244.MAA17392@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


>     While looking through 1984 Bytes. I came across an ad for the computer
> used in the bedroom scene in "Wierd Science". It's the Memotech MTX512. It's
> a sleek black unit and appears to be based on the Z80A.

A bit brownisch in reality :)

>     Does anyone know anything about these?

They have been somewhat popular in Germany between 1983 and
1986 - around the thime when the big Commodores where about
to decline, but the PC hadn't catched up. A neat CP/M able
machine with lots of RAM, up to two FDs, possible HD and a
good video out (or, to catch the home market with tape :).
A good Basic and some add ons (assembler ? linker ? ) had
been put into ROM. Also I remember there was some kind of
script language to handle terminal I/O - a bit wired, but
you could start such scripts to have an inteligent terminal,
almost like block mode terminals with mask based foratings.

The timeline is almost the same as for the Enterprise -
AFAIR the Memotech was also English - at least did the
company some _very_ succesfull ZX81 add ons - the Memotech
64K RAM was at this time _THE_ standard upperclass add on
- especialy with this realy nice design.

The MTX512 has been sold in Germany thry several small
dealers and VOBIS, this pushed it a lot. I heared they
had strong sales in England. Tony ?

Gruss
H.




--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From jfoust at threedee.com  Tue Dec 15 08:26:41 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:14 2005
Subject: Dead Media Note: Flexowriter recollection
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981215082641.00fe6370@pc>


Here's a forwarded message from the Dead Media mailing list.

- John

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 01:50:11 -0600 (CST)
To: Dead Media List 
From: Richard Kadrey 

Dead Media Working Note 41.3
Dead medium:  SPS Flexowriter
From: phxbrd@uswest.net (L. Seth Hammond)
Sources: Personal Recollection



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Dec 15 09:32:37 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812142158.QAA00265@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA18372; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 04:09:59 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <199812151433.OAA06333@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de wrote:
> > I think they have been insirated by the Star like anyone
> > else, but the Ventura design is more to the direction
> > of a single programm and of course made to fit GEM (or
> > did DR made GEM to fit the Publisher ?). GEM itself

> I think GEM was made first and Publisher was the only really big app for
> it. I have a couple of boxes of Ventura and GEM as well over here. The
> filemanager is worse than on a macintosh (actually, it's worse than the
> MS-DOS shell, IMHO). The graphics have no refined quality to them, they
> look like a screensaver that draws boxes with random coordinates :)

Maybe take the time and the avaulabe video cards into account.
Also, witch version of GEM you are refering to ?

There has been a lot of aplications, from 1st Word to Calamus.
And a lot of dedicated apps also - We still have some GEM apps
running :) Dont forgett, MS-Win was only vapourware at this
thime - and until 3.0 only some Sidekick XL.

> Were GEM and Lisa the first non-Xerox GUI projects, or was there some kind
> of weird little company that made a perfect gui but vanished into thin
> air?

I don't know, GEM was the first atempt to cereate a (almost)
hardeware (and Hardeware vendor) independant GUI. Funny fact,
the basics of GEM, the GDI and AES are staight foreward
developments from CP/M 3.0 and GSX - all GDI structures
and functions are basicly GSX :), even some AES structures
are alreay within GSX. Back when I did some GEM development
I always suspected that GEM was completly developed under
CP/M 3.0. Anyway, a port to CP/M should be possible straight
foreward. Such an MTX500 could give a real nice GEM workstation.

> > was like the Mac a downsized (and crushed) version of
> > the Star (I still belive all 'modern' GUI systems are
> > just the mouse interface but noone took the desktop :( ).
> > Maybe with an exception of the OS/2 desktop (Althrough
> > still a GUI, it includes a lot more OO than most other).

> What about NeXT? That's _supposed_ to be OO... 
> Is there any way I could find out more in-depth about what the UI was
> like? This sounds like an interesting machine. What exactly is meant by an
> OO desktop? What about the Amiga? I've heard many people who've used it
> say the same thing about it as you're saying about the Xerox machines, and
> yet I have the feeling you won't agree.

There is a nice book: The GUI-OOUI War; Windows vs. OS/2;
The Designers Guide to Human Computer Interfaces;
ISBN 0-442-01750-2; explaining the main diferences between
GUI and OOUI from a users viewpoint. 

Shure, I won't agree - your feeling is right - The AmigaOS
(like GEM or MacOS) is just a GUI - A graphical display
to a machine - The AmigaOS more than both other.

On the other hand, a OOUI displays a consistent view(point :)
to a 'workingspace' regardless what machine layes below.

And NextStep is, like OS/2, still displaying the machine below.

Another keypoint is that every programm within a GUI (maybe)
uses a differen symbolism, and common methaphors are a good
will agreement between programmers while OOUIs not only support
consistent interfaces, but rather make any other way than the
OO way hard to go.

Maybe take some studies in Smaltalk, and you will be supriesed
how easy OO can bee if the tools are not only offer OO as one
possibility, but rather makes it fun to do it.

Since there are some real nice Smalltalk implementations for
x86 PCs (real mode) its maybe even a historic study.

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au  Tue Dec 15 08:42:35 1998
From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: Saw one...what is that?  TI printing terminal Silent 700.
Message-ID: <01be2839$280adcc0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>

-----Original Message-----
From: Barry A. Watzman 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Tuesday, 15 December 1998 12:34
Subject: RE: Saw one...what is that? TI printing terminal Silent 700.



The silent 700's were mostly used for time-sharing remote computing in the
70's.  Some models (there were quite a few of them) had built-in modems
(acoustic 300 baud for the most part).  They were also used as local
consoles (keyboard/printer).  I believe that the printers were 30 chars/sec,
but they may have been somewhat faster, perhaps as much as 120 cps.  For
their day, they were considered high-end and very desirable.


IIRC, we had those in the VOLMET broadcast booth in the then Sydney Flight
Service Centre, (Circa 1982).
They were running off a Ferranti Message Switching System (dedicated
24(?)bit mini/mainframe)
at 300 baud, which made them a good deal quicker than the Siemens
electromechanical teleprinters that were used elsewhere in the FSC.  They
were used in the booth because they were QUIET and didn't drown out the
announcer when the VOLMET broadcast was on.  The old Siemens machines were
designed for 50 or 75, but I think they ran them at 100, which was just
about the physical limit, and NOISY, even in a sound deadening cabinet.

Footnote:  I also collect teleprinter machines if anyone in Oz has any they
want to part with.......

Cheers

Geoff
Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie
South Australia.
netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au




From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com  Tue Dec 15 08:45:07 1998
From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: Kaypro BASIC
Message-ID: 

Hi all:
	While looking thru surplus last weekend didn't find much,
but 3 semi-interesting items:

1) Microsoft Basic referance manual for Kaypro, complete instructions
for 8K, extended and disk basic, for 8080, 8085, and Z80 w/ CP/M.
As the twig is bent so the tree inclines - you can see some destested
qualities of MS in there, esp. the 'embrace and extend' philosophy,
and the extensive product liability disclaimer while claiming to be
high quality software at the same time. Got it at their usual buck
a book price.

2) A PCJr. rom cart game from the "IBM Entertainment Division",
in box w/ instructions, something about a Farmer, mouse and cheese.
Probably pretty cheesy game but "IBM Entertainment" sounds like an
oxymoron to me, priced at $4. Left it there.

3) Also a TI 700 silent writer.

Anyone heard of a product called the "Video Brain" circa 77-78?

	Regards
	Chuck
	cswiger@widomaker.com




From cfandt at netsync.net  Tue Dec 15 08:46:22 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: Emulex doc archive site gone now . . .
Message-ID: <4.1.19981215093758.00af1920@206.231.8.2>

Well, I guess we lost an RSX document resource for some reason.
http://rsxbbs.delconet.com/ has a shouting message and graphic: 
"Due to negative comments by posters to vmsnet.pdp-11,
 the RSX BBS was decommissioned on 13 December 1998.

 There are no plans to restore the service. Some
 material will be moved to a commercial site. 

Previous donors should contact the Webmaster 
to arrange return of their equipment or documents. "

I cannot keep up with Usenet groups for lack of time. Anybody know what the
'negative comments' were about that I (we) missed? 

There were some Emulex docs posted there I wanted to check again (at URL:
http://rsxbbs.delconet.com/docs/emulex/index.html). Any other location??

Thanks,  Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/


From marvin at rain.org  Tue Dec 15 10:11:38 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: Saw Ad for "Wierd Science" Computer
References: <199812151244.MAA17392@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <36768A3A.474B66D7@rain.org>

Hans Franke wrote:

> They have been somewhat popular in Germany between 1983 and
> 1986 - around the thime when the big Commodores where about
> to decline, but the PC hadn't catched up. A neat CP/M able
> machine with lots of RAM, up to two FDs, possible HD and a
> good video out (or, to catch the home market with tape :).
> A good Basic and some add ons (assembler ? linker ? ) had
> been put into ROM. Also I remember there was some kind of
> script language to handle terminal I/O - a bit wired, but
> you could start such scripts to have an inteligent terminal,
> almost like block mode terminals with mask based foratings.

You mention adding FDs and a HD; when I read through the manual, I didn't
see reference to that.  Nor did I see any obvious place to connect them. 
What did I miss, and how do they get connected to the unit?  Or were there
different configurations available for the same model?  When I took a look
at it last night, it sure looks like a nice machine!!!


From dpeschel at u.washington.edu  Tue Dec 15 10:18:11 1998
From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: Rummaging through my document collection recently...
In-Reply-To: <199812110427.AA06456@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Dec 10, 98 11:27:49 pm
Message-ID: <199812151618.IAA06253@saul2.u.washington.edu>

> ... I came across the MACLisp manaul I used in a 'higher level languages'
> course at WPI back in the 70s... it is the 'Moon' manual, for those
> who might remember such things... Rev.0 !
> 
> I wonder how many of those have survived...

That's not the Lisp Machine Manual (otherwise known as the Chine Nual because
of the way the title wraps from back to front), is it?  I got one a while
ago, but only temporarily.  Interlibrary loan can be so fascinating! :)

The title is deceptive, by the way, because the manual mostly covers the
language rather than the hardware or OS.  (There are notes like "The window
system is covered in other manuals".  Of course those manuals may not exist
anymore.  For that matter, they may never have existed at all.  Grr.)

-- Derek


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Dec 15 10:31:00 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: Emulex doc archive site gone now . . .
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981215093758.00af1920@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Dec 15, 98 09:46:22 am
Message-ID: <199812151631.IAA01249@shell2.aracnet.com>

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From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com  Tue Dec 15 10:32:41 1998
From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: Emulex doc archive site gone now . . .
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981215093758.00af1920@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Christian Fandt wrote:

> Well, I guess we lost an RSX document resource for some reason.
> http://rsxbbs.delconet.com/ has a shouting message and graphic: 
> "Due to negative comments by posters to vmsnet.pdp-11,
>  the RSX BBS was decommissioned on 13 December 1998.
> 
>  There are no plans to restore the service. Some
>  material will be moved to a commercial site. 
> 
> Previous donors should contact the Webmaster 
> to arrange return of their equipment or documents. "
> 
> I cannot keep up with Usenet groups for lack of time. Anybody know what the
> 'negative comments' were about that I (we) missed? 
> 
> There were some Emulex docs posted there I wanted to check again (at URL:
> http://rsxbbs.delconet.com/docs/emulex/index.html). Any other location??

Grrrr...that's why I usually download and archive any docs that I think I
might even have the *slightest* bit of interest in in the future.

This does seem a little petty. There was a thread of posts to
vmsnet.pdp-11 regarding correspondence between Bruce and another person
(go read the posts if you need names...). Basically, Bruce had asked this
person to remove a link to his site from their webpage, and wasn't
particularly diplomatic about it. He had kind of a Nazi policy about
links, but then again it *was* his site. This person posted that
correspondence to the group and it started a little flame, some of which
was not particularly kind. What a shame, there was some neat stuff there.

Did anyone archive some of the documentation on Bruce's site? I know I
have a bunch of it (maybe even some of the Emulex docs...let me look). If
anyone has some of those files, email me privately and I'll make them
"unofficially" available to the participants of this list.



From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com  Tue Dec 15 10:43:00 1998
From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: Emulex doc archive site gone now . . .
Message-ID: <981215114300.2f0007fb@trailing-edge.com>

>Well, I guess we lost an RSX document resource for some reason.
>http://rsxbbs.delconet.com/ has a shouting message and graphic: 
>"Due to negative comments by posters to vmsnet.pdp-11,
> the RSX BBS was decommissioned on 13 December 1998.
>
> There are no plans to restore the service. Some
> material will be moved to a commercial site. 
>
>Previous donors should contact the Webmaster 
>to arrange return of their equipment or documents. "
>
>I cannot keep up with Usenet groups for lack of time.

Too bad - there's a lot of good information on the technical
newsgroups (i.e. vmsnet.pdp-11, alt.sys.pdp10) that you'd probably
appreciate.

> Anybody know what the
>'negative comments' were about that I (we) missed? 

Bruce had an unusual policy of sending nastygrams to folks who
(gasp!) put a link to his site without permission.  Anyone who
did link without permission would find that their network was 
no longer able to access his site.  When someone mentioned this 
policy on vmsnet.pdp-11, Bruce responded by completely shutting 
down his web site.

>There were some Emulex docs posted there I wanted to check again (at URL:
>http://rsxbbs.delconet.com/docs/emulex/index.html). Any other location??

I'm not sure what was there (I never had any way to read the Microsoft
Word formats), but if you ask you'll probably find out what you need
to know.  What do you need to know?

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927



From marvin at rain.org  Tue Dec 15 11:07:00 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: Apple ][ FAQ archive site closed
References: <199812151631.IAA01249@shell2.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <36769734.E937EF88@rain.org>

Zane H. Healy wrote:
> 
> Which reminds me, in what appears to be a simular case, the Apple ][ FAQ
> site has closed shop recently.  Does anyone know where to find the Apple ][
> FAQ's?   They are a valuable source of information, and surprisingly detailed.

I just found that out yesterday when I was doing web research on the Apple
][.  One of the links I saw (and don't recall where) mentioned that
permission was only granted to the makers of two CD-ROMs, so it may be
possible the Apple ][ information would be available there.  The following
is a quote from the "FAQ" posted there:

   This FAQ may not be sold, bundled on disks or CD-ROMs, reprinted in
   magazines, books, periodicals, or the like without prior consent from
   the maintainer, Nathan Mates. Exceptions are explicitly granted for
   Joe Kohn's Shareware Solutions II newsletter, and Jim Maricondo's
   Golden Orchard CD-ROM collection. Email me for permission otherwise.


This short "FAQ" had all the disclaimers and legal garbage in it and had a
link to the actual FAQ.  If anyone finds a copy of the FAQ, I would most
definitely appreciate a copy!!!


From cfandt at netsync.net  Tue Dec 15 11:10:47 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: PDP-11/24 bootup w/9312
Message-ID: <4.1.19981215115621.00aed880@206.231.8.2>

Anybody have a newer M9312 tech manual which describes the S1 settings for
this beast? The boot ROM (in U20) is a 23-774F1 and I'm trying to boot
RL01's and RL02's (device boot ROM -751A9). My manual is EK-M9312-TM-001,
so it's the first edition.

I'm unsuccessful in getting this machine to boot even though it had been
said to have worked before I got it. Hardware config is the same as when I
got it but I want to just make sure I was told correctly that it worked.
Have to verify S1 switch settings as a beginning.

Flipping the Halt/Cont/Boot switch to Boot causes some flickering of the
RL02 drives' Ready light as if there could be some activity. But it stops
after about 20-30 seconds and the VT100 shows just "@01000000" and is
locked. Manual booting by entering 173000G just shows some register info
such as "@ 1010" on the next line.

Could I get a copy of somebody's latest edition of the tech manual. I'll of
course pay all costs.

Thanks for the help!
-- Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/


From dpeschel at u.washington.edu  Tue Dec 15 11:17:11 1998
From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: Saw Ad for "Wierd Science" Computer
In-Reply-To: <001601be27ba$6e193a60$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> from "Richard A. Cini, Jr." at Dec 14, 98 06:32:35 pm
Message-ID: <199812151717.JAA06957@saul5.u.washington.edu>

>     While looking through 1984 Bytes. I came across an ad for the computer
> used in the bedroom scene in "Wierd Science". It's the Memotech MTX512. It's
> a sleek black unit and appears to be based on the Z80A.
> 
>     Does anyone know anything about these?

Other people covered all of the technical details I know.

I kind of like the machine.  (I haven't used one, just seen information on
the Web and the manual on my trip to Bletchley Park.) It's not extraordinary
(even for its time), but it is very well thought out and the parts (software
and hardware) fit together very nicely.  There's lots of nice stuff in ROM
(including a debugger).  I think the ROM has its own RAM space.  (This is
pretty important for a debuger of any real power, I would say.) The company
tried to keep the total configurations reasonable, though they didn't
completely succeed (they offered a number of "combination" packages).

I don't know of any emulators, except one for the Mac that's not released
yet.  See

http://www.emulation.net/

for info on the emulator and lots of cool others (for the Mac only).  See

http://www.btinternet.com/~jim.mtxinfo/mtxsite/index.htm

for some pictures of the machine, some scanned ads, and information about
the (small number of) games that were sold.

-- Derek


From ai705 at osfn.org  Tue Dec 15 11:19:07 1998
From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: Emulex doc archive site gone now - (now Apple II FAQs)
In-Reply-To: <199812151631.IAA01249@shell2.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote:

> Which reminds me, in what appears to be a simular case, the Apple ][ FAQ
> site has closed shop recently.  Does anyone know where to find the Apple ][ 
> FAQ's?   They are a valuable source of information, and surprisingly detailed.

You mean the official Nathan Mates Apple II FAQs, the ones with a linear 
history back to the newsgroup charter. Nathan closed out any Apple II 
support in a snit over "piracy" and the Asimov site in general. You 
should be able to find his material through DejaNews using his name for 
an author search. 

There are also rival FAQs which are perhaps more complete at the ground 
archive:

ftp://ground.ecn.uiowa.edu/

http://ground.ecn.uiowa.edu/

The gno site also seems to have them, URL unknown.

You can link to both locations by going to the A2Web site at:

http://www.syndicomm.com/a2web/



                                     --  Stephen Dauphin



From dpeschel at u.washington.edu  Tue Dec 15 11:29:39 1998
From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <199812111441.GAA43862@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Dec 11, 98 06:41:03 am
Message-ID: <199812151729.JAA00739@saul5.u.washington.edu>

> The 6809 was most well known in the Color Computers and the Dragons, as well
> as in some early PETs.

I knew that Commodore was inept at selling computers.  I also knew that they
had a lot of obscure computers which most people never saw or bought. 
(There's a huge list that tries to contain everything C= ever made.  The
list may be Jim Brain's creation.)

But could I be dreaming?  Is Commodore even MORE inept than I thought? 
Could they really take a lovely processor like the 6809 and not capitalize
on it?  I have a feeling I'm not dreaming.

I haven't seen your site yet, though as I recall, the title is "Secret
Weapons of Commodore".  Great title!  Silly company!  (Nasty CEO Mr. Tramiel!)

-- Derek


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Tue Dec 15 11:48:03 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: Emulex doc archive site gone now . . .
In-Reply-To: <199812151631.IAA01249@shell2.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote:

> Which reminds me, in what appears to be a simular case, the Apple ][ FAQ
> site has closed shop recently.  Does anyone know where to find the Apple ][ 
> FAQ's?   They are a valuable source of information, and surprisingly detailed.

Try: http://www.gno.org/pub/apple2/doc/FAQs/

It isn't connecting right now for some reason but keep trying.  The FAQs
were liberated some time ago when the then current FAQ maintainer didn't
get the pony he wanted and in a tantrum claimed to have formatted the hard
drive with his FAQs.  So other people created their own FAQs.  The FAQs at
the above link seem to go to copies of the original FAQs, but there are
new FAQs abound.  Also, check comp.sys.apple2 for FAQ postings (or ask
there).

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Tue Dec 15 11:59:49 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: Apple ][ FAQ archive site closed
In-Reply-To: <36769734.E937EF88@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Dec 15, 1998 09:07:00 AM
Message-ID: <199812151759.KAA12566@calico.litterbox.com>

> Zane H. Healy wrote:
> > 
> > Which reminds me, in what appears to be a simular case, the Apple ][ FAQ
> > site has closed shop recently.  Does anyone know where to find the Apple ][
> > FAQ's?   They are a valuable source of information, and surprisingly detailed.

*rant on*

This still burns me up.  See, what happened is, at some point before I joined,
Nathan Mates got custody of the faq, and spent a lot of time html-izing it and 
cross-linking it and generally making it useful.  Then he decided to make it
his personal crusade to drive certain people from the group by constant flames
insults, and generally reducing the signal to noise ratio to near zero.  When
this failed, he threw a tantrum and wiped out the faq (without warning) and
left the group.  Yes, it's annoying that there are still active pirates on 
CSA2 who will rip off the few remaining software producers for the apple2.
But Nathan went far beyond this, including everyone who copies software from
extinct companies too.  In the end, I really think he lost his mind.

*rant off*

The text based faq IS available, or at least most of it is, at 

http://www.gno.org/pub/apple2/doc/FAQs/

-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Dec 15 12:00:01 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: Emulex doc archive site gone now - (now Apple II FAQs)
In-Reply-To:  from "Stephen Dauphin" at Dec 15, 98 12:19:07 pm
Message-ID: <199812151800.KAA07385@shell2.aracnet.com>

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From jimw at agora.rdrop.com  Tue Dec 15 12:17:48 1998
From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
Message-ID: 

Ok... being somewhat bemused by the thoughts of a 'feeding frenzy', and
sadly short on $$ (as is all too common this time of year), and not
wanting to be accused of 'selling out' on eBay without offering to the
more civilized set first, and... (etc., etc., etc...)

Let's chuck another (yule) log into the flames and see how badly I get
scorched with this one...  (quite the build up, eh?)

---

Deemed (reluctantly) surplus to the collection:

SOL-20, electronically restored and keyboard rebuilt
w/ P.T. 16kra memory card

- AND -

(so the eBay set does not feel left out)

*RARE* original Panasonic B/W TV/Monitor conversion from P.T. with
touch-plate power switch!

---

Not that I want to start a bidding war (or then again, why not?) so lets
say that it could be had for $600 plus shipping, with a possibility of
part/all trade for something similarly really cool!  (tho I could really
use the $$$)

Then, if the feeding frenzy really starts, folks can start openly bidding
up the "ham sandwich"!   B^}

"Call now!  This offer only good thru noon PST Friday, 18-December-1998
or while supplies last!  This offer may not be repeated!  Operators are
standing by!"

(quickly donning the flameproof 'Santa' suit)

-jim
---
jimw@agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174



From mbg at world.std.com  Tue Dec 15 12:18:15 1998
From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: Rummaging through my document collection recently...
Message-ID: <199812151818.AA01094@world.std.com>

The book is a light blue cover, no graphics, just text.  Clearly
with Moon's name on it... Wraps from front to back, no text on the
back that I remember... (But I don't have it in my hands at this
time... it's at home)...

Anyway, it isn't a lisp machine manual... it is the language manual.

					Megan


From mbg at world.std.com  Tue Dec 15 12:19:15 1998
From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: Rummaging through my document collection recently...
Message-ID: <199812151819.AA04097@world.std.com>

Sorry for that last message... I should have used a cite from
the mail I received... it was in response to a question about
the Maclisp 'Moon' manual I mentioned recently...

					Megan Gentry
					Former RT-11 Developer

+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL   | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group |          (home):  mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation    | addresses need '@' in place of '!'  |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43   | URL:     http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | 
| Nashua, NH 03062               | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055                 |  required." - mbg                   |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+


From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com  Tue Dec 15 12:29:27 1998
From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
Message-ID: 

Hey Jim, is that the PT monitor I tried to trade you for, but you said you
were too attached to?



Kai

-----Original Message-----
From: James Willing [mailto:jimw@agora.rdrop.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 10:18 AM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?


Ok... being somewhat bemused by the thoughts of a 'feeding frenzy', and
sadly short on $$ (as is all too common this time of year), and not
wanting to be accused of 'selling out' on eBay without offering to the
more civilized set first, and... (etc., etc., etc...)

Let's chuck another (yule) log into the flames and see how badly I get
scorched with this one...  (quite the build up, eh?)

---

Deemed (reluctantly) surplus to the collection:

SOL-20, electronically restored and keyboard rebuilt
w/ P.T. 16kra memory card

- AND -

(so the eBay set does not feel left out)

*RARE* original Panasonic B/W TV/Monitor conversion from P.T. with
touch-plate power switch!

---

Not that I want to start a bidding war (or then again, why not?) so lets
say that it could be had for $600 plus shipping, with a possibility of
part/all trade for something similarly really cool!  (tho I could really
use the $$$)

Then, if the feeding frenzy really starts, folks can start openly bidding
up the "ham sandwich"!   B^}

"Call now!  This offer only good thru noon PST Friday, 18-December-1998
or while supplies last!  This offer may not be repeated!  Operators are
standing by!"

(quickly donning the flameproof 'Santa' suit)

-jim
---
jimw@agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174


From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Tue Dec 15 12:39:33 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <199812151729.JAA00739@saul5.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Dec 15, 98 09:29:39 am
Message-ID: <199812151839.KAA11990@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From kevan at heydon.org  Tue Dec 15 12:34:09 1998
From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: Saw Ad for "Wierd Science" Computer
In-Reply-To: <36768A3A.474B66D7@rain.org>
Message-ID: 


On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote:
> 
> You mention adding FDs and a HD; when I read through the manual, I didn't
> see reference to that.  Nor did I see any obvious place to connect them. 
> What did I miss, and how do they get connected to the unit?  Or were there
> different configurations available for the same model?  When I took a look
> at it last night, it sure looks like a nice machine!!!

There were two types of floppy unit, the SDX and the FDX and a single type
of hard disk unit the HDX. The SDX had a controller box that plugged into
the left hand side of the main unit with a ribbon cable from that to a
single 800K (i think) floppy drive. The FDX and HDX units required a
controller board that fitted inside the main unit to the right and side of
the motherboard. The FDX and HDX boxes were identical quite large boxes
that could contain things like an 80 column card for CPM and Silicon
disks for really fast storage although I don't know if they were battery
backed up.

I have owned an MTX512 since they were new. It was a logical next step for
someone who had a ZX80, ZX81, Video Genie (TRS80 clone) and wanted a
colour machine that had decent assembly language support. My yonger
brother bought one two, and then he upgraded it with an SDX drive, an
extra 128Kb of memory and a Pascal ROM. I also now own an RS128 which is
essentially an MTX512 with an FDX box, and 80column card and dual serial
ports.

Finally one common misconception is that they are MSX compatible. The
reason for this is that they use the same graphics chip (that does
sprites etc.) as the MSX machines. 

You can find a picture of an MTX512 and a picture of the internal circuit
board at:

http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/manufacturer-memotech/mtx512.html

--
Kevan

Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/




From dburrows at netpath.net  Tue Dec 15 12:07:42 1998
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: PDP-11/24 bootup w/9312
Message-ID: <017b01be2858$f8740a20$bf281bce@p166>



>Anybody have a newer M9312 tech manual which describes the S1 settings for
>this beast? The boot ROM (in U20) is a 23-774F1 and I'm trying to boot
>RL01's and RL02's (device boot ROM -751A9). My manual is EK-M9312-TM-001,
>so it's the first edition.
>
>I'm unsuccessful in getting this machine to boot even though it had been
>said to have worked before I got it. Hardware config is the same as when I
>got it but I want to just make sure I was told correctly that it worked.
>Have to verify S1 switch settings as a beginning.


S1= ON Boot to ODT 165xxx
S1=off Boot selected device 173xxx
s2=off for 11/24 use
s3 through s10 are starting add.


>Flipping the Halt/Cont/Boot switch to Boot causes some flickering of the
>RL02 drives' Ready light as if there could be some activity. But it stops
>after about 20-30 seconds and the VT100 shows just "@01000000" and is
>locked. Manual booting by entering 173000G just shows some register info
>such as "@ 1010" on the next line.

Try 173004g


or R0/ x  Where X is the device # you want to boot from (0,1 etc. depending
on what unit has the system pack in.)
Then 173012g  it will size memory as above then boot selected unit.

I am surprised you have the M9312 in that machine since you have 1 meg of
memory.  Normally you would put the boot rom on the KT24 (M7134) and use
just a M9302 terminator.

I think I have a second 11/24 system technical manual around here but I
can't find it at the moment.  I will keep my eyes open for it in the
meantime.  It is to thick to readily copy and I use it to often supporting
several customers that are still running them in production to loan my only
copy.

Dan



From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com  Tue Dec 15 12:46:39 1998
From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: PDP-11/24 bootup w/9312
Message-ID: <981215134639.2f000836@trailing-edge.com>

>I am surprised you have the M9312 in that machine since you have 1 meg of
>memory.  Normally you would put the boot rom on the KT24 (M7134) and use
>just a M9302 terminator.

Normally, yes, that's what you'd do.  But it is possible to use
more than 256 K without the KT24 memory map/bootstrap module, assuming
your OS never tries to do I/O to memory past 256 K.  For example,
RT-11 SJ, where the extra memory is used as a virtual (VM:) disk
drive.

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927


From eric at brouhaha.com  Tue Dec 15 12:48:20 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <199812151224.MAA13978@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
	(Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de)
References: <199812142038.UAA29469@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>	(Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) <199812151224.MAA13978@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <19981215184820.24059.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Hans wrote:
> Oh, before I forget - Also known as 8096 and 8096SK and SP9000.

I wrote:
> The SuperPet SP9000 and the 8096 are not the same machine; the 8096 does
> not have the extra 6809 processor.

Hans wrote:
> They are - the diference is just the added 6809 board.

  ^^^^^^^^

They are what?  If you mean to say they are identical, they certainly aren't,
as I wrote before and as you confirm in your own statement.

It may be the case that *SOME* 8096s are the same as an SP9000 without the
6809, but *SOME* of them aren't.  I've got a board set out of an 8096, and
it is sufficiently different than the board set in my SP9000 that there is
no way to add the 6809 board.

Eric



From yowza at yowza.com  Tue Dec 15 13:51:47 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, James Willing wrote:

> Not that I want to start a bidding war (or then again, why not?) so lets
> say that it could be had for $600 plus shipping, with a possibility of
> part/all trade for something similarly really cool!  (tho I could really
> use the $$$)

Speaking as a cheap bastard who would never pay this much for a Sol, I'd
like to see it offered on eBay just to see what it would fetch.  The last
one I saw sell there brought $300, but it was non-working, and it was
before a certain money-is-no-object bidder joined the fray.

BTW, I appreciate the gesture, but I don't understand the logic of
offering it to this list rather than the public at large.  This is an open
list -- anybody can subscribe, and many do without becoming list
contributors.  There's no guarantee that somebody who buys here won't
resell it on ebay or elsewhere for more.  In fact, since the internet
affords a certain level of anonymity, a "dealer" could easily pose as a
mild-mannered collector if they wanted to.

If the goal is to ensure that it stays in the hands of a collector who
will maintain it and not resell it for profit, then I think a simple
contract could be drawn up to help ensure that, and those conditions could
be stated in the ad.

-- Doug



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Tue Dec 15 15:45:43 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: FSOT: Core memeory baord
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981215154543.2dafa900@intellistar.net>

I found another core memory board. This looks like it's also for the Data
General 800 but the name on it is Keronix.  It says that it's 16K x 16.
For sale or trade, best offer.  E-mail me privately.

  Joe



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Tue Dec 15 14:07:07 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:

> If the goal is to ensure that it stays in the hands of a collector who
> will maintain it and not resell it for profit, then I think a simple
> contract could be drawn up to help ensure that, and those conditions could
> be stated in the ad.

Such a contract would be pointlessly unenforceable.

Nobody should ever feel guilty for wanting to sell anything in their
collection for any reason.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From yowza at yowza.com  Tue Dec 15 14:20:57 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Sam Ismail wrote:

> > If the goal is to ensure that it stays in the hands of a collector who
> > will maintain it and not resell it for profit, then I think a simple
> > contract could be drawn up to help ensure that, and those conditions could
> > be stated in the ad.
> 
> Such a contract would be pointlessly unenforceable.

It would not be pointless: it would make the seller's intentions clear.
And it would not be unenforceable.  It would be difficult and unlikely to
be enforced, just like most laws.

> Nobody should ever feel guilty for wanting to sell anything in their
> collection for any reason.

There was no guilt trip implied.  If money was the only motivation, then
this isn't the best forum to sell.  If passing it on to another collector
was the motive, then offering it here is no guarantee of that.

-- Doug



From jfoust at threedee.com  Tue Dec 15 14:21:19 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981215142119.00e3a3b0@pc>

At 01:51 PM 12/15/98 -0600, Doug Yowza wrote:
>There's no guarantee that somebody who buys here won't
>resell it on ebay or elsewhere for more. [...] then I think a simple
>contract could be drawn up to help ensure that, and those conditions could
>be stated in the ad.

What's next, purity tests and monthly check-ups to insure that
everyone's mind and body are innocent enough to own and sell 
old computers?

If some Microsoft millionaire wants to pay stupid prices for 
old junk, what'ya gonna do, resort to vigilante indoctrination
until they're willing to waste weekends searching thrift stores?

There's no use getting upset about the right edge of the bell
curve of Altair prices.  

- John



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Dec 15 15:24:54 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <19981215184820.24059.qmail@brouhaha.com>
References: <199812151224.MAA13978@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>	(Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de)
Message-ID: <199812152026.UAA22431@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

>> Oh, before I forget - Also known as 8096 and 8096SK and SP9000.

> I wrote:
>> The SuperPet SP9000 and the 8096 are not the same machine; the 8096 does
>> not have the extra 6809 processor.

> Hans wrote:
>> They are - the diference is just the added 6809 board.
>   ^^^^^^^^

> They are what?  If you mean to say they are identical, they certainly aren't,
> as I wrote before and as you confirm in your own statement.

> It may be the case that *SOME* 8096s are the same as an SP9000 without the
> 6809, but *SOME* of them aren't.  I've got a board set out of an 8096, and
> it is sufficiently different than the board set in my SP9000 that there is
> no way to add the 6809 board.

To get this straight, we are talking about the 8096, a modified
8032 with the big metal case and a 'Universal PET' board, and
a daughterboard pluged into to give 64 K of additional mem.

Now the 6809 PET (SP, MMF, etc.) has also a daughterboard, placed
in the same position, that replaces the 6502 CPU with a cable to
the add-on board. On the board ist the original 6502, the 6809, a
6551, 64k RAM and some ROM. The RAM is maped, instead of to $9xxx
(if my memory is correct) in 4K steps (and the ROM on the daughter-
board did replace the Kernal ROM, when the 6809 was active - if my
memory is correct).

I have a Comodore machine, that is a 8096 case (Metal, 12" 8000 PET
case) with the label 8096 on the front and this doughterboard
installed. The serial number sticker says MMF9000, and the
original Commodore shipment papers also say MMF9000 - so, what
do I own ?

Throughout possible that commodore had several PCB layouts for
the MMF - I don't know. There is also the late version of the
8096 board with 128 K onboard RAM as used in the 8096SK and
8296SK models. The memory maping was like the 8096 with the 64K
board but unlike the 64K of the 6809 board. I don't know any
Addition (like LOS-96) that used the additional 32K - the access
was very - uh - lets say not so easy :) (BTW: there are also
some units known whee this board resides inside a betal 8032/8096
case and the unit is named 8096).

I think Commodore did the best they could do to confuse collectors :)

Servus
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com  Tue Dec 15 14:43:24 1998
From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
Message-ID: 

| -----Original Message-----
| From: John Foust [mailto:jfoust@threedee.com]
| Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 12:21 PM
| To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
| Subject: Re: SOL feeding frenzy?
| 
| If some Microsoft millionaire wants to pay stupid prices for 
| old junk, what'ya gonna do

I feel compelled to point out that I know all of the classic computer
collectors here, and I am only aware of one millionaire in the world ever
paying stupid prices for old junk, and he's the founder of some independent
web design company, he does not work for MS.

Kai


From yowza at yowza.com  Tue Dec 15 14:46:00 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981215142119.00e3a3b0@pc>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, John Foust wrote:

> What's next, purity tests and monthly check-ups to insure that
> everyone's mind and body are innocent enough to own and sell 
> old computers?

That's an idea.  Do you think there's a greed gene we could test for?
The point was that there's more than one motivation for selling something,
and money alone isn't always it.  Offering a computer to this list
when a more efficient market is known implies to me that money is not
the prime motivator, so if the seller has something else in mind,
shouldn't steps be taken to ensure that those wishes are honored?

> If some Microsoft millionaire wants to pay stupid prices for 
> old junk, what'ya gonna do, resort to vigilante indoctrination
> until they're willing to waste weekends searching thrift stores?
> 
> There's no use getting upset about the right edge of the bell
> curve of Altair prices.  

I have no problem with high prices being paid, but I have problems with
high prices being *publicized* because it directly affects me and the
hobby in a negative way.

But this isn't a rant about prices, it's about expectations of behavior in
this "community."  We can no longer assume that everybody on this list is
interested in the preservation of old computers, so it doesn't make sense
to offer "special" deals here with the expectation that the machines will
get "special" treatment.

-- Doug



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Dec 15 15:48:45 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: MTX500/512
In-Reply-To: <36768A3A.474B66D7@rain.org>
Message-ID: <199812152049.UAA24241@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> You mention adding FDs and a HD; when I read through the manual, I didn't
> see reference to that.  Nor did I see any obvious place to connect them. 
> What did I miss, and how do they get connected to the unit?  Or were there
> different configurations available for the same model?  When I took a look
> at it last night, it sure looks like a nice machine!!!

They have been add on cases, AFAIR a single and a dual
drive unit, and a single drive HD unit. THey where
conected by flat ribbon type cable. I'm not shure,
but there was also a type with build in FDs - but
it's a long time ago.

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Dec 15 15:48:45 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <199812152049.UAA24244@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > Not that I want to start a bidding war (or then again, why not?) so lets
> > say that it could be had for $600 plus shipping, with a possibility of
> > part/all trade for something similarly really cool!  (tho I could really
> > use the $$$)

> Speaking as a cheap bastard who would never pay this much for a Sol, I'd
> like to see it offered on eBay just to see what it would fetch.  The last
> one I saw sell there brought $300, but it was non-working, and it was
> before a certain money-is-no-object bidder joined the fray.

USD 300 is ok - not realy low, but still afordable, if one
wants it - for a working unit (And I assume mine will work,
since I trust the seller _AND_ I have his address and at
least 220 punds to argue with).

> BTW, I appreciate the gesture, but I don't understand the logic of
> offering it to this list rather than the public at large.  This is an open
> list -- anybody can subscribe, and many do without becoming list
> contributors.  There's no guarantee that somebody who buys here won't
> resell it on ebay or elsewhere for more.  In fact, since the internet
> affords a certain level of anonymity, a "dealer" could easily pose as a
> mild-mannered collector if they wanted to.

Shure, but as long as the sale goes as free style offers, the
seller is still able to pick the one who wants to sell to, And
this offers the oportunity to take someone that he (the seller)
thinks will handle the unit properly.

And if it fails and the wolve steps out of the sheeps disguise,
I still belive in the 'self healing of a comunity and the ability
of every individual to remember :) Tit for Tat starts best with
cooperation.

> If the goal is to ensure that it stays in the hands of a collector who
> will maintain it and not resell it for profit, then I think a simple
> contract could be drawn up to help ensure that, and those conditions could
> be stated in the ad.

Finaly no contract can enshure it - even a 'no sale at all'
paragraph can be void under some circumstances, and a court
might rule against it.

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Dec 15 15:57:05 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.5.32.19981215142119.00e3a3b0@pc>
Message-ID: <199812152058.UAA24770@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

Doug Yowza:


> ArialOn Tue, 15 Dec 1998, John Foust wrote:Courier

7F00,0000,0000> > What's next, purity tests and monthly check-ups to insure that

> > everyone's mind and body are innocent enough to own and sell 

> > old computers?


> That's an idea.  Do you think there's a greed gene we could test for?

> The point was that there's more than one motivation for selling something,

> and money alone isn't always it.  Offering a computer to this list

> when a more efficient market is known implies to me that money is not

> the prime motivator, so if the seller has something else in mind,

> shouldn't steps be taken to ensure that those wishes are honored?


Or at least to give the fellows a first shoot.


7F00,0000,0000> > If some Microsoft millionaire wants to pay stupid prices for 

> > old junk, what'ya gonna do, resort to vigilante indoctrination

> > until they're willing to waste weekends searching thrift stores?

> > There's no use getting upset about the right edge of the bell

> > curve of Altair prices.  


> I have no problem with high prices being paid, but I have problems with

> high prices being *publicized* because it directly affects me and the

> hobby in a negative way.


Only because some people think this is a measurement _and_

other collectors are willing to pay higher prices as they

where before.


7F00,0000,0000> But this isn't a rant about prices, it's about expectations of behavior in

> this "community."  We can no longer assume that everybody on this list is

> interested in the preservation of old computers, so it doesn't make sense

> to offer "special" deals here with the expectation that the machines will

> get "special" treatment.


0000,0000,8000Gut gebruellt Loewe, but whats a 'good' member and whats not ?

Do you want to set up a second list with 'invitation only'

sign at the front desk ? This would just keep newbees (people

born later than 1968like almost half the people here I guess)

out and then ?


I just assume everybody here has the same (or at least similar)

motivation and feeling toward the ol'metal as me - until proved

false.


Gruss

hans


--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Dec 15 16:06:01 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199812152107.VAA25347@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> Then, if the feeding frenzy really starts, folks can start openly bidding
> up the "ham sandwich"!   B^}

Looking for sandwich pops up more than 200 listings ...
We need the ePay URL to push the sub :)

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Dec 15 16:08:49 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: <199812152058.UAA24770@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
References: 
Message-ID: <199812152109.VAA25576@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> > ArialOn Tue, 15 Dec 1998, John Foust wrote:Courier
> 
> 7F00,0000,0000> > 

Waaaaah - I don't know how I managed this.
I am realy sorry about it.
I already checked my setings.
Sorry
Hans

--
Traue keinem Menschen der 5 Tage blutet und immer noch nicht tod ist.


From yowza at yowza.com  Tue Dec 15 15:16:39 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: <199812152058.UAA24770@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Hans Franke wrote:

> Gut gebruellt Loewe, but whats a 'good' member and whats not ?
> Do you want to set up a second list with 'invitation only'
> sign at the front desk ? This would just keep newbees (people
> born later than 1968like almost half the people here I guess)
> out and then ?

No, I prefer open and rotten to closed and "pure."  But that doesn't mean
that I allow myself to be easily exploited by the rotten. This is becoming
way too abstract.  Why are people afraid of contracts?  When did contracts
become a New Orwelian invention?

> I just assume everybody here has the same (or at least similar)
> motivation and feeling toward the ol'metal as me - until proved
> false.

Same here.  Contact me for details if you'd like. [Organ music swells.
Fade to black.]

-- Doug



From cfandt at netsync.net  Tue Dec 15 15:21:56 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: PDP-11/24 bootup w/9312
In-Reply-To: <017b01be2858$f8740a20$bf281bce@p166>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981215154718.00af0470@206.231.8.2>

First, Dan Burrows replied:

>
>>Anybody have a newer M9312 tech manual which describes the S1 settings for
>>this beast? The boot ROM (in U20) is a 23-774F1 and I'm trying to boot
>>RL01's and RL02's (device boot ROM -751A9). My manual is EK-M9312-TM-001,
>>so it's the first edition.
>>
>>I'm unsuccessful in getting this machine to boot even though it had been
>>said to have worked before I got it. Hardware config is the same as when I
>>got it but I want to just make sure I was told correctly that it worked.
>>Have to verify S1 switch settings as a beginning.
>
>
>S1= ON Boot to ODT 165xxx
>S1=off Boot selected device 173xxx
>s2=off for 11/24 use
>s3 through s10 are starting add.

S1 is set so that 1 thru 8 is 'OFF' and 9 + 10 are 'ON' as I found it. 

   -- snip --
>I am surprised you have the M9312 in that machine since you have 1 meg of
>memory.  Normally you would put the boot rom on the KT24 (M7134) and use
>just a M9302 terminator.

Then Tim Shoppa replied:

>I am surprised you have the M9312 in that machine since you have 1 meg of
>memory.  Normally you would put the boot rom on the KT24 (M7134) and use
>just a M9302 terminator.

Normally, yes, that's what you'd do.  But it is possible to use
more than 256 K without the KT24 memory map/bootstrap module, assuming
your OS never tries to do I/O to memory past 256 K.  For example,
RT-11 SJ, where the extra memory is used as a virtual (VM:) disk
drive.


Well, this machine has just a single M7891-DH with 128 KW of MOS RAM. Tim,
I assume you meant 256K *bytes*? :)

There is no KT24 in this machine. It's kinda scrawny featurewise for such a
machine. Not even a DD11-DK expansion backplane is installed. Has two
RL02's in the cabinet. Came out of Case Western Reserve university so it
could have been hacked to make a 'smaller' system for instructional use or
just for lab use. Still has the UDA50 boardset for SDI disks but no SDI
"DU" boot ROM (767A9). Who knows  . . . 

Anyway, the lack of a KT24 explains why a 9312 was used instead of the 9302.

BTW: after flicking the boot switch, about how many minutes should it take
to do the prelim. tests before any evident booting action takes place? I
just see the # of bytes of memory displayed ("@01000000") and a few
flickers of the "Ready" light on the RL02. I waited at least five minutes
or more several times. After thinking I've waited long enough to grow old
waiting, I Halt the processor and "@1013" is written to the display. Could
there be a hang? (Got simple info out of my RT-11 5.1 manuals on how to
boot an 11/24 just this AM. Stumbled upon it, actually.)

Thanks for the help so far guys!
Regards,  Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/


From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Tue Dec 15 15:19:58 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: <199812152108.QAA00219@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA08937; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:49:41 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 yowza@yowza.com wrote:
> this "community."  We can no longer assume that everybody on this list is
> interested in the preservation of old computers, so it doesn't make sense

That right there is a very important statement, on par with "Carthago
delenda est". I agree with you completely. I guess the old days of
innocence are gone. It's not just an Enrico Tedeschi every few months,
there are actually people trying to make money off this hobby.

> -- Doug
> 

----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Dec 15 16:28:02 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812152058.UAA24770@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <199812152129.VAA26977@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> > Gut gebruellt Loewe, but whats a 'good' member and whats not ?
> > Do you want to set up a second list with 'invitation only'
> > sign at the front desk ? This would just keep newbees (people
> > born later than 1968like almost half the people here I guess)
> > out and then ?

> No, I prefer open and rotten to closed and "pure."  But that doesn't mean
> that I allow myself to be easily exploited by the rotten. This is becoming
> way too abstract.  Why are people afraid of contracts?  When did contracts
> become a New Orwelian invention?

Don't get me wron, I'm not afraid of contracts, I just found that
if you need a _written_ (and I think this is it) contract to bann
the other, he will find ways to avoid the bann, and nothing is
reached. I buy my cars without a written contract, I put some
USD 150,000 into renovating my condo without a written contract,
I put up two companies without written contract, and I will stay
this way. If the other don't honour my word, why should I do business
with him ? Ok, now I think we are geting deep into a personal
viewpoint (BTW: If you ask, no, this might not be the usual German
way - I don't know, maybe I have some Arab blood ...).

> > I just assume everybody here has the same (or at least similar)
> > motivation and feeling toward the ol'metal as me - until proved
> > false.

> Same here.  Contact me for details if you'd like. [Organ music swells.
> Fade to black.]

Cut, Tada, Always Ultra, a ladys life has has never been easer.
Now extra strong and still soft - tada - Back to the show.
(I like the way how they lift the thrill by inserting 'messages'
at the right moment... :)

Hans

--
Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh.
H.Achternbusch


From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Tue Dec 15 15:35:08 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: tektronics 503 scope
References: <01BE279C.BB438B60@slip-32-100-187-97.oh.us.ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3676D60B.FDB79F0D@bigfoot.com>

Barry A. Watzman wrote:

>  When looking at a square wave, it is normal for the horizontal tops and bottoms to be brighter/thicker than the vertical segments.  The linear speed of the beam when drawing the vertical lines is MANY times (sometimes hundreds or thousands of times) faster (in mm/second of beam travel) than when drawing the horizontal tops and bottoms, which results in a difference in the nature of the display.

Unless it's extreme, which may be harmonics or other noise distortion. Florescent lighting is great for this by adding a nice thick top that sometimes dances or is haloed.



From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com  Tue Dec 15 15:38:03 1998
From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
Message-ID: 

| -----Original Message-----
| From: Max Eskin [mailto:kurtkilg@geocities.com]
| Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 1:20 PM
| To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
| Subject: Re: SOL feeding frenzy?
| 
| there are actually people trying to make money off this hobby.

I hear this a lot, but I think it's just collectors like us whining (yeah,
whining, I'm guilty too) of prices for this stuff going up past the junk
range.

While I do not dispute that there are folks who have had some machine(s) in
their closet/garage/warehouse for some time, find out that it's worth money
now, and pop it onto eBay, I am not aware of anyone who is _buying and
selling_ classic computers for a profit.

Kai


From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Tue Dec 15 15:41:46 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: Xerox
In-Reply-To: <199812152108.QAA00213@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA18697; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:37:43 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

Well, I'm afraid I didn't understand your reply about how Star was better 
than other UIs, Hans (sorry I can't quote the message). I can't see how a UI 
could really completely obscure the hardware of a machine (I think that's what 
you meant). What if you need to save to a floppy disk? How do you obscure
the physical machine in that?

I haven't really looked at smalltalk, but here I have a 1983 issue of
Popular Computing that describes it. It shows a sample which sadly makes
little sense to an unenlightened one :( Is there a free version of
Smalltalk for the PC that you would recommend for learning?

How does smalltalk compare to LISP? I've got a book on LISP that I haven't
looked through due to lack of time.

Also, you said that OS/2 is more OO than others. Which version? I have 2.0
here and not only is it slower than molasses, it's basically the same as
Windows 95 in terms of design, implementation, and so on.

----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From yowza at yowza.com  Tue Dec 15 15:47:32 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote:

> While I do not dispute that there are folks who have had some machine(s) in
> their closet/garage/warehouse for some time, find out that it's worth money
> now, and pop it onto eBay, I am not aware of anyone who is _buying and
> selling_ classic computers for a profit.

Bob, this is your cue.  Would you please reintroduce yourself?  :-)

OK, there are only a few of them now, but as high prices get more
publicized, how long do you think that will last?

-- Doug



From cmcmanis at freegate.com  Tue Dec 15 15:50:16 1998
From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812152108.QAA00219@localhost>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981215134011.00ba8b30@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>

At 04:19 PM 12/15/98 -0500, Max wrote:
>That right there is a very important statement, on par with "Carthago
>delenda est". I agree with you completely. I guess the old days of
>innocence are gone. It's not just an Enrico Tedeschi every few months,
>there are actually people trying to make money off this hobby.

Correction, there ARE people making money off this hobby. This change of
events is the source of the recent swelling in prices that people will pay.
A "rationalization" of the market as William Gibson so aptly described it.
Denying it, or trying to write contracts to prevent it, doesn't change it.
Sorry.

--Chuck

P.S. I'll go $350 on that Sol-20 Jim ...




From marvin at rain.org  Tue Dec 15 16:04:17 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
References: 
Message-ID: <3676DCE1.FF995AF@rain.org>

Doug Yowza wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, James Willing wrote:
> 
> > Not that I want to start a bidding war (or then again, why not?) so lets
> > say that it could be had for $600 plus shipping, with a possibility of
> > part/all trade for something similarly really cool!  (tho I could really
> > use the $$$)
> 
> Speaking as a cheap bastard who would never pay this much for a Sol, I'd
> like to see it offered on eBay just to see what it would fetch.  The last
> one I saw sell there brought $300, but it was non-working, and it was
> before a certain money-is-no-object bidder joined the fray.

As I recall, the first one I saw offered on eBay sold for somewhere around
$750 or so.  I talked to the gentleman who bought it, and his comment was
that it was in mint condition, included peripherals like floppy disk drives,
and complete documentation.  Two things I remember about that auction: 1)
Don't keep making bids throughout the whole bidding process as it only
drives the price up (my inexperience ), and 2) the person who offered
it for bid forgot to put a reserve price on it, and stated in an added note
that he reserved the right not to sell it if he didn't get at least $25.00
for the setup!  He had bought this stuff new years ago.


From Marty at itgonline.com  Tue Dec 15 16:09:24 1998
From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
Message-ID: <1998Dec15.170748.1767.170760@smtp.itgonline.com>

 
 I've been collecting radios, televisions, and computer equipment for 
 some years. I've bought and sold lots of different radios and 
 televisions, always to buy yet another more coveted radio or 
 television. I don't have the disposable income necessary to collect 
 everything I want and regardless of available resources, my interests 
 have changed over the years. What once bowled me over may have grown 
 passe` to me now. Anyway, I've funded the purchase of new and to 
 myself, better gear by selling off what I am no longer in love with or 
 just plain bored with. I have made a profit on some of what I've sold, 
 taken a loss on others. I've been able to better my collection without 
 denying my children milk and clothing this way. 
 
 Marty
 
 
 
 


______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: RE: SOL feeding frenzy?
Author:  classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet
Date:    12/15/98 4:40 PM


 | -----Original Message-----
 | From: Max Eskin [mailto:kurtkilg@geocities.com] 
 | Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 1:20 PM
 | To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers 
 | Subject: Re: SOL feeding frenzy?
 |
 | there are actually people trying to make money off this hobby.
 
 I hear this a lot, but I think it's just collectors like us whining (yeah, 
 whining, I'm guilty too) of prices for this stuff going up past the junk 
 range.
 
 While I do not dispute that there are folks who have had some machine(s) in 
 their closet/garage/warehouse for some time, find out that it's worth money 
 now, and pop it onto eBay, I am not aware of anyone who is _buying and 
 selling_ classic computers for a profit.
 
 Kai
 
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From hansp at digiweb.com  Tue Dec 15 16:07:05 1998
From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:15 2005
Subject: OT Netscape help was Re: Neat time-wasters for DEC enthusiasts
References: 
Message-ID: <3676DD89.C99467E3@digiweb.com>

Zane H. Healy wrote:
> The one down side is that while they are text files they all end in .DOC,
> which Netscrape seems conviced it has to download instead of viewing.
> Anyone know how to fix that?  I don't think I've ever run across a .DOC
> file on the web that was actually MS Word, but find a LOT of text files
> like that.  I'd like to simply be able to open them in the web browser!

You should be able to change the association of .DOC from WORD to your
favorite text editor. I use Netscape 4.05 and the relevent section is
Edit-Preferences-Navigator-Applications. Find the MSWORD application,
press edit and change the mime type and the program to launch. You can
also tell Navigator to ask you before downloading/opening the document.

Regards

_---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___-
Hans B Pufal                          Comprehensive Computer Catalogue
             


From hansp at digiweb.com  Tue Dec 15 16:10:41 1998
From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
References: <199812151224.MAA13981@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <3676DE61.96199089@digiweb.com>

Hans Franke wrote:

> >> Pascaline ? Never heared of - do we talk about the machine
> >> that executed UCSD p-code via a WD chipset as 'native' code ?
> 
> > The same. The machine has the name Pascaline in script on the front and
> > the manula witrh it is by WD. 2 8" floppies and a single boeard
> > computer.
> 
> The 8" FDs are in a seperate box - at least mine - and
> on the silver and black front panel I have only the
> words Pascal Micro Engine. Could it be that there is
> a special french version ? at least for the labeling ?

Hmm, interesting. I will post some pictures of ours next time I go in
(This weekend).

> Lets see, I will be in Bern in january, maybe I could add
> a short jump to your place.

Well, that is helf way here from Munich. I would be pleased to show you
around our "little" collection.

Regards

_---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___-
Hans B Pufal                          Comprehensive Computer Catalogue
             


From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com  Tue Dec 15 16:23:45 1998
From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Kai Kaltenbach wrote:
> 
> > While I do not dispute that there are folks who have had some machine(s) in
> > their closet/garage/warehouse for some time, find out that it's worth money
> > now, and pop it onto eBay, I am not aware of anyone who is _buying and
> > selling_ classic computers for a profit.
> 
> Bob, this is your cue.  Would you please reintroduce yourself?  :-)
> 
> OK, there are only a few of them now, but as high prices get more
> publicized, how long do you think that will last?

I actually bid a couple of hundred bucks on a huge Atari 2600/5200 game
lot on a newsgroup, after I saw what the ebay prices were for that stuff.
My idea was to sell it off on ebay to finance the real hobby, since the
"street" value (from ebay records) came to several thousand dollars.
Someone finally bought it for ~$500 and has been doing just that - piecing
it out on ebay for an amazingly distorted investment/profit ratio; I
remembered the winner's email address and check his auctions from time to
time...Doh!

Actually, I'm glad I didn't get it. All that time and energy
packing/shipping is too much of a pain in the ass for me...



From Watzman at ibm.net  Tue Dec 15 16:25:56 1998
From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: OT Netscape help was Re: Neat time-wasters for DEC enthusiasts
Message-ID: <01BE2850.00F985C0@slip-32-100-187-39.oh.us.ibm.net>

OK, I'm having a problem with the list server.

What do I send to classiccmp@u.washington.edu to get the digest form instead of individual messages ?

I'm apparently getting the syntax wrong (I'm trying "Set classiccmp digest")

Thanks,
Barry Watzman




From ai705 at osfn.org  Tue Dec 15 16:24:42 1998
From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: <3676DCE1.FF995AF@rain.org>
Message-ID: 

> > On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, James Willing wrote:
> > 
> > > Not that I want to start a bidding war (or then again, why not?) so lets
> > > say that it could be had for $600 plus shipping, with a possibility of

> Doug Yowza wrote:
> > 
> > Speaking as a cheap bastard who would never pay this much for a Sol, I'd
> > like to see it offered on eBay just to see what it would fetch.  The last
> > one I saw sell there brought $300, but it was non-working, and it was

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote:
> 
> As I recall, the first one I saw offered on eBay sold for somewhere around
> $750 or so.  I talked to the gentleman who bought it, and his comment was
> that it was in mint condition, included peripherals like floppy disk drives,
> and complete documentation.  Two things I remember about that auction: 1)
> Don't keep making bids throughout the whole bidding process as it only
> drives the price up (my inexperience ), and 2) the person who offered
> it for bid forgot to put a reserve price on it, and stated in an added note
> that he reserved the right not to sell it if he didn't get at least $25.00
> for the setup!  He had bought this stuff new years ago.


You are both right about the two instances of a SOL auction, but 
Marvin's recollection isn't quite accurate.

For the record:

*************************************************************************
Antique Processor Technology Computer          Item #65230
                                      
                            Current bid $456.00
 Auction ends Tue 09/02/97 12:58:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time
 Seller swantola@mobius-inc.com (4) (registered user)
 Current high bidder jerrysch@erols.com (36) star (registered user)
 Number of bids made 25
 Location of item Stamford, Ct.
 Category Computers:Hardware:General
   
                                Description
                                      
     My first "Pre-PC" purchased new in 1977. This "Sol Terminal
     Computer" is a complete working S-100 bus machine which runs a form
     of CPM (TSA/OS). Machine uses twin Suggart 8" IBM format floppy
     disks for source code input (BASIC or Assembler code). A 64x20
     video monitor is used for a display and a cassette interface can be
     used to input BASIC or Assembler source code as well. Parallel
     printer port. Complete set of SOL manuals and 8"floppys included.
     Buyer pays shipping.
       ______________________________________________________________
                                      
     On 08/25/97 at 12:41:28 PDT, seller added the following
     information:
     
     ***IMPORTANT NOTE: My reserve price of $24.95 was not placed in
     thisauction dispite my efforts to enter it. I reserve the right to
     refuse to sell this item unless the highest bid is at least $24.95.
*****************************************************************************

*****************************************************************************
   Vintage/old Sol Terminal Computer.   Item #27396567
   
   Computers:Hardware:PC Systems
   
 
   Currently $305.00
   Quantity 1 # of bids 14
   Location Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
   Ends 09/02/98 12:46:38 PDT
   Seller kstumpf@unusual.on.ca (6)
   High bid alexzogh (95) star
   
   Description
   
     The Sol Terminal Computer designed by the Home Brew Computer Club 
president Lee Felsinstien and was built by Processor Technology in 1976. 
Does not work. No documentation. Exterior condition is very good, 
especially the wooden side panels, Buyer pays for shipping in advance. 
Also included is a complimentary copy of: A Guide to Collecting 
Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique
****************************************************************************


From marvin at rain.org  Tue Dec 15 16:41:03 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
References: 
Message-ID: <3676E57F.980C6092@rain.org>

Stephen Dauphin wrote:
> 
> For the record:
> 
> *************************************************************************
> Antique Processor Technology Computer          Item #65230
> 
>                             Current bid $456.00
>  Auction ends Tue 09/02/97 12:58:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>  Seller swantola@mobius-inc.com (4) (registered user)
>  Current high bidder jerrysch@erols.com (36) star (registered user)
>  Number of bids made 25
>  Location of item Stamford, Ct.
>  Category Computers:Hardware:General
*****



My recollection sure was off; thanks for posting this!  The person who
bought it is Jerry Schneider and his comment was that this one was better
than one he had in the Smithsonian.  Jerry still shows up on eBay auctions.


From jfoust at threedee.com  Tue Dec 15 16:41:49 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.5.32.19981215142119.00e3a3b0@pc>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981215164149.009b8d10@pc>

At 02:46 PM 12/15/98 -0600, Doug Yowza wrote:
>That's an idea.  Do you think there's a greed gene we could test for?
>The point was that there's more than one motivation for selling something,
>and money alone isn't always it.

If someone paid $6,000 for something, and someone else paid $100,
which person is more likely to preserve the something?

>I have no problem with high prices being paid, but I have problems with
>high prices being *publicized* because it directly affects me and the
>hobby in a negative way.

>We can no longer assume that everybody on this list is
>interested in the preservation of old computers, so it doesn't make sense
>to offer "special" deals here with the expectation that the machines will
>get "special" treatment.

You know the joke about the guy who goes to the doctor and says
"It hurts when I do this" and the doctor says "Don't do that"?
Well, you're right.  You can't expect to make a public announcement
and somehow control the outcome after the sale.

If someone really wants to preserve a system, would it be so hard
as to hand-pick someone to get it?  Let's say you had an old Terak.
You do a simple web search and see this nice guy in Wisconsin with
a Terak museum web page, and you decide to give it to him instead
of selling it on eBay for $10,000.  Problem solved.

Oh, but wait you say - we aren't talking about people who want
to preserve systems, we're talking about people who want to sell
them and get as much money as possible for the transaction.

>But this isn't a rant about prices, it's about expectations of behavior in
>this "community." 

There is no community.  You've been believing too many techno-pagans
in the pages of Wired.  :-)

At 12:43 PM 12/15/98 -0800, Kai Kaltenbach wrote:
>I feel compelled to point out that I know all of the classic computer
>collectors here, and I am only aware of one millionaire in the world ever
>paying stupid prices for old junk, and he's the founder of some independent
>web design company, he does not work for MS.

I wasn't thinking of anyone in particular.  Sorry about that.
I recalled someone else complaining that some xxxx@microsoft.com
bidder was walking away with systems on eBay, and assumed it
was true.

> I am not aware of anyone who is _buying and
>selling_ classic computers for a profit.

There's the Bob guy, the antique reseller, right?  Good for him.

At 04:19 PM 12/15/98 -0500, Max Eskin wrote:
>That right there is a very important statement, on par with "Carthago
>delenda est". I agree with you completely. 

What do you think you can wipe out, and how?

>I guess the old days of
>innocence are gone. It's not just an Enrico Tedeschi every few months,
>there are actually people trying to make money off this hobby.

Hobby?  Who said it was a hobby?  There are obviously some people
on this list who have made it their life's work.

- John



From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au  Tue Dec 15 16:47:27 1998
From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: Neat time-wasters for DEC enthusiasts
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <4.1.19981216094110.00af21d0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au>

At 08:40 PM 14-12-98 -0800, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote:

>The first is about retro-computing on digital.com's main site:
>
>http://www.digital.com/info/DTJN02/DTJN02HM.HTM

Well I guess most DEC users will know who Bob Supnik is but perhaps not Max
Burnet. Max was one of the first Australian Digital employees and rose to
become General Manager (or some such title) for Australia. He was replaced
a couple of years later by a salesman (Max is a techie) but stayed with
Digital until his retirement a couple of years ago. Max is famous for his
museum of old Digital gear and at each Australian DECUS he would have an
exhibit of something of interest. The last one I recall was a PDP-9 still
in its shipping crate. It had gone (new) to New Zealand, never been opened
and Max got it shipped back something like 15 years later. Max is, apart
from being a nice guy, a member of the Australian DECUS NOP SIG (NOP =
Nostalgic and Obsolete Products). I've tried a couple of times to get him
to join this mailing list and as far as I know he hasn't (although he could
be lurking...).

 Huw Davies                      | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au
 Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550  Fax: +61 3 9479 1999
 La Trobe University             | "If God had wanted soccer played in the
 Melbourne Australia 3083        | air, the sky would be painted green"


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 15 16:53:07 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: Saw one...what is that?  TI printing terminal Silent 700.
In-Reply-To: <19981215094059.06316@firepower> from "Sergey Svishchev" at Dec 15, 98 09:40:59 am
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 15 17:08:27 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: A nifty demo
In-Reply-To: <199812151230.MAA14716@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 15, 98 01:30:51 pm
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 15 16:46:03 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: Saw one...what is that?  TI printing terminal Silent 700.
In-Reply-To: <199812150441.XAA03250@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@pop.cgocable.net" at Dec 14, 98 11:47:43 pm
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 15 17:44:24 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981215164149.009b8d10@pc> from "John Foust" at Dec 15, 98 04:41:49 pm
Message-ID: 

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From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Tue Dec 15 17:44:58 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: <199812152330.SAA00833@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA16256; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:46:44 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 jfoust@threedee.com wrote:
> What do you think you can wipe out, and how?

I simply thought of a sentence that could be used as the marker for the
start of something. I might as well have used Kennedy's statement about
sending a man to the moon.

> Hobby?  Who said it was a hobby?  There are obviously some people
> on this list who have made it their life's work.

Quick show of hands here; how many of the people who have done this are
running a for-profit organization? Mind you, there's nothing wrong with
doing that; it's just that as the original poster said, it is no longer
possible to assume that the purpose of these collections is academic. All
of them are, AFAIK, but in a decade, I'm sure we can expect to see XTs
with documentation sealed in clear polished plastic (tony cringes). They
will be repainted to the original color (or, better yet, the limited
edition blue and gold colors) and sold for thousands. 

> - John
> 

----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From jrkeys at concentric.net  Tue Dec 15 17:50:48 1998
From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: Kaypro BASIC
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <000001be2885$bd9b8540$64afadce@5x86jk>

yes have back in Houston here the spec's: Processor - F8, RAM 1 to 4k,
Display could drive a color tv and display 7 lines of 16 characters also
could operate it's spreaker, external 36-key KB, Data storage was either
cartridge pacs or cassette, production early 1978 and cost around $500 new.
John

> -----Original Message-----
> From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu
> [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of cswiger
> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 8:45 AM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Kaypro BASIC
>
>
> Hi all:
> 	While looking thru surplus last weekend didn't find much,
> but 3 semi-interesting items:
>
> 1) Microsoft Basic referance manual for Kaypro, complete instructions
> for 8K, extended and disk basic, for 8080, 8085, and Z80 w/ CP/M.
> As the twig is bent so the tree inclines - you can see some destested
> qualities of MS in there, esp. the 'embrace and extend' philosophy,
> and the extensive product liability disclaimer while claiming to be
> high quality software at the same time. Got it at their usual buck
> a book price.
>
> 2) A PCJr. rom cart game from the "IBM Entertainment Division",
> in box w/ instructions, something about a Farmer, mouse and cheese.
> Probably pretty cheesy game but "IBM Entertainment" sounds like an
> oxymoron to me, priced at $4. Left it there.
>
> 3) Also a TI 700 silent writer.
>
> Anyone heard of a product called the "Video Brain" circa 77-78?
>
> 	Regards
> 	Chuck
> 	cswiger@widomaker.com
>
>
>



From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Tue Dec 15 17:44:07 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: of topics
Message-ID: <005101be2884$cf7b21e0$1901a8c0@titanic.bde.com.au>

Whilst enjoying the repartee on the list, I am writing to suggest that some
consideration to the subject headings be made.  It would be nice to see more
appropriate headings added/changed when the topic wanders.  Especially when
the archives come into consideration - browsing 100 messages called "A nifty
demo", when in fact very few of them relate to that topic, is very time
consuming :)
Cheers
A



From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Tue Dec 15 17:59:29 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: <199812152348.SAA01048@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA20852; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:51:22 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote:
> on condition that I don't try to sell them. If machines start selling for 
> high prices, then the donors are less likely to believe that I want them 

There is another issue. Many people simply want money for their machine on
account of the way _they_ feel about it. Here in a Jan'96 classifieds
magazine, Apple ][s, C-64s, XTs are selling for $200 or more. This is
before eBay. I kept this magazine for 2 years for the sole purpose of
comparing prices. 

> -tony
> 

----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From handyman at sprintmail.com  Tue Dec 15 18:31:50 1998
From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: "Video Brain" circa 77-78?
References: 
Message-ID: <3676FF76.6A23@pop.a001.sprintmail.com>

cswiger wrote:

> Anyone heard of a product called the "Video Brain" circa 77-78?
> 
>         Regards
>         Chuck
>         cswiger@widomaker.com

I have one of these computers/Game machines. I have looked everywhere
and have never found any information about them anywhere. 

Do you have one?

Do You know anything about them ?

My Video Brain is black, about the size of a commodore 64, has a full
keyboard,
cheap keyboard almost chicklet type. It has two nice joysticks, several
application
cartridges, I also have several manuals for it. Its very clean, but does
not work..
Like I said I know nothing about this machine and have found out nothing
anywhere about it..

Phil...


From museum at techniche.com  Tue Dec 15 18:37:22 1998
From: museum at techniche.com (Jon Healey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: "Video Brain" circa 77-78?
Message-ID: <199812160037.TAA02129@chmls05.mediaone.net>

Interestingly, one of these sold on ebay yesterday.
The photo is still there right now, but will probalby
go away shortly.

Jon

see: 

 http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=48594741
=======================================================
>cswiger wrote:
>
>> Anyone heard of a product called the "Video Brain" circa 77-78?
>> 
>>         Regards
>>         Chuck
>>         cswiger@widomaker.com
>
>I have one of these computers/Game machines. I have looked everywhere
>and have never found any information about them anywhere. 
>
>Do you have one?
>
>Do You know anything about them ?
>
>My Video Brain is black, about the size of a commodore 64, has a full
>keyboard,
>cheap keyboard almost chicklet type. It has two nice joysticks, several
>application
>cartridges, I also have several manuals for it. Its very clean, but does
>not work..
>Like I said I know nothing about this machine and have found out nothing
>anywhere about it..
>
>Phil...
>



From yowza at yowza.com  Tue Dec 15 19:00:43 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981215134011.00ba8b30@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Chuck McManis wrote:

> Correction, there ARE people making money off this hobby. This change of
> events is the source of the recent swelling in prices that people will pay.
> A "rationalization" of the market as William Gibson so aptly described it.
> Denying it, or trying to write contracts to prevent it, doesn't change it.
> Sorry.

Apology accepted :-)  As I've said, I don't have a big problem with people
making money off this stuff, but if you buy into that up front, then let
it be Jim who makes the money.  He knows where he can get the best price.

However, if money isn't the main goal, there are alternatives that work. 
Following your reasoning, all of the museums would be empty. 

> P.S. I'll go $350 on that Sol-20 Jim ...

I'll go $200, and I'll ensure that people learn something about it and
from it.

-- Doug



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 15 19:00:47 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To:  from "Max Eskin" at Dec 15, 98 06:44:58 pm
Message-ID: 

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From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Tue Dec 15 19:33:17 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: Value
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981215161455.7be7b8d4@ricochet.net>

At 12:14 PM 12/13/98 -0800, you wrote:
>So assuming you had, lets say, the Polymorphic Business plan, how would you
>put a value on it?  While I don't know how many were made let alone still

Surely you realize that anything Sam doesn't have is worth $5 max, while
anything he has more than 2 of is worth thousands...  8^)  

>more likely to be found in those areas than areas like, lets say, the
>Michigan Upper Pennisula (sp?.)  So what is the difference in availability
>of something between the two areas?  How would that affect the price (value)
>of a given item in the two areas?

It's not so much the item's location as it is the *buyer's* location.  I go
to a fair number of antique shows (no computers yet) looking for Donald
Duck stuff.  I also go to Disneyland a fair bit.  I regularly see things
like buttons, flatware, stuffed animals for sale at shows for twice what
they are *currently* available for at the park.  

Justification?  The buyers aren't at Disneyland.  They have the choice of
paying $20 for an stuffed Donald Duck that is marked $12 on the tag, or
buying a $50+ plane ticket and a $35+ Disneyland ticket to get the same
item.  

Similary, people who aren't here in the valley, or aren't able to spend all
day running around to thrift shops instead of working, are willing to pay a
little more.  I live in San Francisco, which should be pretty good for
finding old computers, but I have to work for a living, and when I'm not
working, I spend my time with either my dad or my girlfriend (or both.)
So, what little free time I have available to me is usually the wee hours
in the morning, and the only place open is eBay.

Other people may have other reasons for not scouring 200 thrift shops/day:
physical challenges, location, lack of knowledge, etc.  Also, some folks
may not be looking for something for the same reasons -- sure, we collect
'em, and may even play with 'em, but there are people out there who
actually *use* old computers (like someone's friend with the HX-20) and may
not even consider the fact that other people would consider them thrift
shop fodder.

So while the ideal thing to do is find your SOL's and Altairs at your
neighborhood garage sales or church bazaars for $5, not everyone is able to
do that.

Saying they're stupid because of it, or unreasonable, is unfair.  

P.S., there are a lot of people out there who would think all of us insane
for spending any amount on old computers, not to mention filling our homes
and offices with them.  Likewise, I've had people look at me strange when
I've admitted paying several dollars for a single clothing button, or
hundreds of dollars for some old toy.  To some, my mother's prize Steinway
piano is no better than her old Baldwin Acrosonic, and would be just as
happy with the piano patch on their sound card.  

Chaque a' son gout, the lady said as she kissed the cow.  8^)



--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                       http://www.sinasohn.com/



From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Tue Dec 15 19:33:18 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: Keywords are not false advertising
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981215163757.7be7ece8@ricochet.net>

At 05:41 PM 12/13/98 EST, you wrote:
>search engine. Search engines use keywords. Finding the right keywords that

First off, I know of no search engine that keeps on top of eBay other than
eBay's own search engine.  I doubt people are using AltaVista to find stuff
on eBay.

>The question then becomes "What do I list this as, that will trip the
keywords
>that people search for?" You end up packing the limited space for the
>description with keywords that are only related to the item you are selling.

I think you are confusing the description and the title.  The title is what
shows up on the listing pages (45 chars max) while the description (no
limit, can include HTML) shows up only on the actual item page.  With that
clarification...

EBay's search engine allows for searching the description as well as the
title.  If you are looking for Donald Duck stuff (for example) and you only
search titles, you'll miss a lot of good items.  An item with a title of
"disney toothbrush holders" doesn't mention Donald, but the description
did.  (Bought the set of 6 for $10, gave the Donald one to Rachel, sold the
other five for $25.)

My recomendation is to make your *title* as descriptive and readable as
possible:  "Donald Duck in a red car" and then, in the description, include
things like "made by Sun Rubber" and "has Goofy in the rumble seat" to
catch the folks searching for Sun Rubber or Goofy items.  People just
looking through the category listings will see the title, and may find it
interesting enough to look at.  

If you put "sun rubber donald duck goofy red car" as your title, you'll
lose the folks going through the category and won't get many more searchers.  

And one of the most silly things I've seen is to put "for sale" in the
title -- Duh!  That's only slightly worse than the people who put, simply,
"laptop computer" as the title of something in the portable computers
category.  

>We are at the beginning of a revolution, I don't think anyone knows where it
>will shake out.

The only beginning bit is a new collectible: computers.  Everything else is
old hat (even the auction format).  


--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                       http://www.sinasohn.com/



From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Tue Dec 15 19:33:18 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: ebay methods...
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981215164144.4dff737c@ricochet.net>

At 04:50 PM 12/13/98 -0600, you wrote:
>A sophisticated bidder doesn't browse.  He knows what he's looking for and
>has "canned" searches built-up that include keywords and even common
>mispellings.  Science, I tell you!

Dunno about that...  I regularly go through the full Portables section, and
the "ending today" listings for a couple other categories.  Donald Duck, I
search for.  Portable computers, there are no good keywords.

Of course, the really sophisticated bidder simply keeps an eye on what
other, known bidders are bidding on...  8^)  (And disguises his own
activity with lots of Donald Duck bids.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                       http://www.sinasohn.com/



From marvin at rain.org  Tue Dec 15 19:41:22 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: Value
References: <3.0.16.19981215161455.7be7b8d4@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <36770FC2.CD97A11B@rain.org>

Uncle Roger wrote:
> 
> It's not so much the item's location as it is the *buyer's* location.  I go
> to a fair number of antique shows (no computers yet) looking for Donald
> Duck stuff.  I also go to Disneyland a fair bit.  I regularly see things
> like buttons, flatware, stuffed animals for sale at shows for twice what
> they are *currently* available for at the park.
> 
> Justification?  The buyers aren't at Disneyland.  They have the choice of
> paying $20 for an stuffed Donald Duck that is marked $12 on the tag, or
> buying a $50+ plane ticket and a $35+ Disneyland ticket to get the same
> item.

Okay, the buyers location with respect to the items location is probably a
better way of putting it :).  And of course, the item is only worth what
someone is willing to pay.  For myself, I usually find that getting to a
garage sale, bazaar, etc. early is a waste of time since the sellers usually
expect to get more for the items.  I love being close to the last one there
since most of the real junk (to me anyway!) has been sold and makes a clear
line of sight to the good stuff.  Sometimes the cost is merely hauling it
off.  I can afford that :).


> hundreds of dollars for some old toy.  To some, my mother's prize Steinway
> piano is no better than her old Baldwin Acrosonic, and would be just as
> happy with the piano patch on their sound card.

Which model Steinway?  And only heathen would even consider comparing a
sound card to a Steinway.  But of course, these people would have to be deaf
not to be able to hear the difference :).


From handyman at sprintmail.com  Tue Dec 15 19:53:10 1998
From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: "Video Brain" circa 77-78?
References: <199812160037.TAA02129@chmls05.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <36771286.6C6C@pop.a001.sprintmail.com>

Unbelievable !!!! There it is, Just like mine...
I can't believe I missed this one..
Does anybody else know anything about this computer.
Who made it ?  How Many ?
Thanks very much Jon, Seeing the picture was great..
I didn't know there was another one around..
Phil...

Jon Healey wrote:
> 
> Interestingly, one of these sold on ebay yesterday.
> The photo is still there right now, but will probalby
> go away shortly.
> 
> Jon
> 
> see:
> 
>  http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=48594741
> =======================================================
> >cswiger wrote:
> >
> >> Anyone heard of a product called the "Video Brain" circa 77-78?
> >>
> >>         Regards
> >>         Chuck
> >>         cswiger@widomaker.com
> >
> >I have one of these computers/Game machines. I have looked everywhere
> >and have never found any information about them anywhere.
> >
> >Do you have one?
> >
> >Do You know anything about them ?
> >
> >My Video Brain is black, about the size of a commodore 64, has a full
> >keyboard,
> >cheap keyboard almost chicklet type. It has two nice joysticks, several
> >application
> >cartridges, I also have several manuals for it. Its very clean, but does
> >not work..
> >Like I said I know nothing about this machine and have found out nothing
> >anywhere about it..
> >
> >Phil...
> >


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Tue Dec 15 19:57:44 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: <3676E57F.980C6092@rain.org>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote:

> My recollection sure was off; thanks for posting this!  The person who
> bought it is Jerry Schneider and his comment was that this one was better
> than one he had in the Smithsonian.  Jerry still shows up on eBay auctions.

By the way, I have heard of one instance where a guy bought an AIM65 off a
usenet auction for around $120 and then turned around and sold it to a
museum (the Smithsonian I believe) for $600 (or perhaps higher...I can't
remember the exact figure).

Take your own conclusions from that.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From cmcmanis at freegate.com  Tue Dec 15 20:09:13 1998
From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: OT: Value/money making (was Re: SOL feeding frenzy?)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4.1.19981215134011.00ba8b30@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981215175022.00aafdf0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>

At 07:00 PM 12/15/98 -0600, Doug wrote:
>However, if money isn't the main goal, there are alternatives that work. 
>Following your reasoning, all of the museums would be empty. 

Actually this is why there is very little of the artifacts from the Spanish
Galleon "Atocha" in museums. The same is true for paintings, many are
traded by art dealera for profit, and now and then they get donated to
museums or the museum uses its own "acquisitions" fund for adding to their
collection. 

The bottom line is that I agree that preserving computers has in my opinion
more "value" than the potential dollars involved. To give a "real life"
example, I have a PDP-8/m that I am attempting to get running (it needs a
core stack and potentially a bit of power supply work.) The goal of getting
it running is so that it can be put on _operating_ display at a "hands on"
museum. Now as readers of the list know I've been looking for a core stack
for it for a few months now. Recently (in the last couple of months) I've
been getting inquiries from _dealers_, some subtle some less so, of people
who want to buy it (not working!). [for those counting the highest offer
has been $1,000]. I even got Aaron all pissed off at me because I was
concerned _he_ was one such dealer. All of this hassle because 1) the
"collectible" computer market has moved into more mainstream places, and 2)
the prices have gotten to the point where "real" people notice. (e.g.
professional dealers).

So the role of "collector" takes on more the role of "caretaker." You and I
are classic computer caretakers, we care about the computers, we care about
their history, we care about how they are used, and we care that they will
survive us. People who buy and sell "collectible" computers in order to
increase their personal wealth are "collectors" in the more common usage of
the word. The collectors are "moving in" and the caretakers job gets harder. 

This isn't news to anyone here I'm sure,
--Chuck McManis




From yowza at yowza.com  Tue Dec 15 20:09:52 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981215164149.009b8d10@pc>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, John Foust wrote:

> If someone paid $6,000 for something, and someone else paid $100,
> which person is more likely to preserve the something?

Unfortunately, there's little correlation.  I routinely spent that or more
on stock certificates, but that doesn't mean I hold them very long.

> If someone really wants to preserve a system, would it be so hard
> as to hand-pick someone to get it?  Let's say you had an old Terak.
> You do a simple web search and see this nice guy in Wisconsin with
> a Terak museum web page, and you decide to give it to him instead
> of selling it on eBay for $10,000.  Problem solved.

I agree.  You were the second person I thought of when I found some Terak
bits a while back.  (I was the first person I thought of.)

BTW, have you seen my Sol museum?
	http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/sol/

-- Doug



From yowza at yowza.com  Tue Dec 15 20:12:21 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Sam Ismail wrote:

> By the way, I have heard of one instance where a guy bought an AIM65 off a
> usenet auction for around $120 and then turned around and sold it to a
> museum (the Smithsonian I believe) for $600 (or perhaps higher...I can't
> remember the exact figure).

Are you sure he didn't sell it to Fred Smithsonian of Long Island, NY?  Or
perhaps it was Joe's Museum of Big Bluff, WY? 

-- Doug



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Tue Dec 15 20:29:04 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:

> Now faking is another matter. No way would I consider that to be 
> reasonable conduct from a collector. If you have a machine in a rare 
> colour scheme, then it's fine to touch up the paintwork, but not to fake one.

Don't hold your breath.  I suspect we will be seeing "forged" computers by
late next year.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dburrows at netpath.net  Tue Dec 15 20:19:13 1998
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: PDP-11/24 bootup w/9312
Message-ID: <009101be289b$a4caab20$bf281bce@p166>


>>S1= ON Boot to ODT 165xxx
>>S1=off Boot selected device 173xxx
>>s2=off for 11/24 use
>>s3 through s10 are starting add.
>
>S1 is set so that 1 thru 8 is 'OFF' and 9 + 10 are 'ON' as I found it.

9+10 means boot 173006 diagnose on (sizes memory etc.)
>   -- snip --
>>I am surprised you have the M9312 in that machine since you have 1 meg of
>>memory.  Normally you would put the boot rom on the KT24 (M7134) and use
>>just a M9302 terminator.


correction 01000000 = 256k bytes /128k words sorry old age I guess

>Then Tim Shoppa replied:
>
>>I am surprised you have the M9312 in that machine since you have 1 meg of
>>memory.  Normally you would put the boot rom on the KT24 (M7134) and use
>>just a M9302 terminator.
>
>Normally, yes, that's what you'd do.  But it is possible to use
>more than 256 K without the KT24 memory map/bootstrap module, assuming
>your OS never tries to do I/O to memory past 256 K.  For example,
>RT-11 SJ, where the extra memory is used as a virtual (VM:) disk
>drive.
>
>
>Well, this machine has just a single M7891-DH with 128 KW of MOS RAM. Tim,
>I assume you meant 256K *bytes*? :)
>
>There is no KT24 in this machine. It's kinda scrawny featurewise for such a
>machine. Not even a DD11-DK expansion backplane is installed. Has two
>RL02's in the cabinet. Came out of Case Western Reserve university so it
>could have been hacked to make a 'smaller' system for instructional use or
>just for lab use. Still has the UDA50 boardset for SDI disks but no SDI
>"DU" boot ROM (767A9). Who knows  . . .
>
>Anyway, the lack of a KT24 explains why a 9312 was used instead of the
9302.
>
>BTW: after flicking the boot switch, about how many minutes should it take
>to do the prelim. tests before any evident booting action takes place? I
>just see the # of bytes of memory displayed ("@01000000") and a few
>flickers of the "Ready" light on the RL02.
Should start booting shortly (less than 30 sec.after mem size displayed)
I waited at least five minutes
>or more several times. After thinking I've waited long enough to grow old
>waiting, I Halt the processor and "@1013" is written to the display. Could
>there be a hang? (Got simple info out of my RT-11 5.1 manuals on how to
>boot an 11/24 just this AM. Stumbled upon it, actually.)


I don't know about RT - all my experience is with RSX11M+ but I would guess
that it is not seeing the boot sectors.  IE: try another platter.  Before
inserting another disk check / clean the heads, check the old platter for
those nasty rings.

Dan
>



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Tue Dec 15 20:33:18 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: Value
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19981215161455.7be7b8d4@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Uncle Roger wrote:

> Chaque a' son gout, the lady said as she kissed the cow.  8^)

Can we stick to English on this list?  All these Latin and French quotes
are all Greek to me!

(ok, that was a stupid pun, I admit, but the sentiment is genuine :)

(Hans' German tagline is exempted :)

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From rcini at msn.com  Tue Dec 15 18:56:10 1998
From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: Saw Ad for "Wierd Science" Computer
Message-ID: <00de01be289a$67b8ee00$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>

Marvin:

    I don't have one of these, although I'd probably like one. Mostly just
curious as to the hardware capabilities, software available, how long it was
sold, etc.

[  Rich Cini/WUGNET
[   ClubWin!/CW7
[   MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
[   Collector of "classic" computers
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/
<================   reply   separator  =================>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:22:33 -0800
From: Marvin 
To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Saw Ad for "Wierd Science" Computer
Message-ID: <3675ABC9.85B1BFA6@rain.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote:
>
> Hello, all:
>
>     While looking through 1984 Bytes. I came across an ad for the computer
> used in the bedroom scene in "Wierd Science". It's the Memotech MTX512.
It's
> a sleek black unit and appears to be based on the Z80A.
>
>     Does anyone know anything about these?

Not too much.  I have one in mint condition that IIRC includes the manuals,
etc. I was given about a year ago but haven't done anything with it.
Anything in particular you would like to know?





From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Tue Dec 15 20:50:34 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: OT: Value/money making (was Re: SOL feeding frenzy?)
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981215175022.00aafdf0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Chuck McManis wrote:

> for it for a few months now. Recently (in the last couple of months) I've
> been getting inquiries from _dealers_, some subtle some less so, of people
> who want to buy it (not working!). [for those counting the highest offer
> has been $1,000]. I even got Aaron all pissed off at me because I was
> concerned _he_ was one such dealer. All of this hassle because 1) the
> "collectible" computer market has moved into more mainstream places, and 2)
> the prices have gotten to the point where "real" people notice. (e.g.
> professional dealers).

See, to me, this is highly annoying.  Now, the dealers are well within
their right to try to drive the prices up by buying items at inflated
prices and then selling them at even *more* inflated prices, but I'm also
well within my rights to try to ruin this market for the dealers so that
prices stay low enabling the hobbyists to enjoy their hobby without having
to go broke in the process.  Selfish motivation?  Of course!  Just as
selfish as the motivation of others to turn a huge profit.

Whoever is buying these items at these silly prices deserve to get ripped
off.  As long as they do, its only going to encourage the prices to go up,
so until you guys paying hundreds/thousands of dollars come to your
senses, expect to continue paying more and more.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From pctech at davidbowie.com  Tue Dec 15 20:58:22 1998
From: pctech at davidbowie.com (Brian Giacoletti)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: Info on Laser 128
Message-ID: <000b01be289f$f54678a0$d4adadce@amdk6-2>

Someone i know came across this machine and asked if i could restore it.It is a Laser 128 I know it is an Apple II clone but what else can anyone tell me about it.I have cleaned this thing out(it was filthy)But cant start it up because i have no power cord to do so any info will be of great help

Brian
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From cfandt at netsync.net  Tue Dec 15 21:15:38 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: PDP-11/24 bootup w/9312
In-Reply-To: <009101be289b$a4caab20$bf281bce@p166>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981215220745.00b045d0@206.231.8.2>

At 21:19 12/15/98 -0500, you wrote:
   -- snip --
>>BTW: after flicking the boot switch, about how many minutes should it take
>>to do the prelim. tests before any evident booting action takes place? I
>>just see the # of bytes of memory displayed ("@01000000") and a few
>>flickers of the "Ready" light on the RL02.
>Should start booting shortly (less than 30 sec.after mem size displayed)

Hmmm, something must be wrong since nothing happens after five minutes.
I'll put the machine aside and work on it later. It's part of the pile of
DEC gear I must get rid of anyway. List of which will appear here soon.

>I waited at least five minutes
>>or more several times. After thinking I've waited long enough to grow old
>>waiting, I Halt the processor and "@1013" is written to the display. Could
>>there be a hang? (Got simple info out of my RT-11 5.1 manuals on how to
>>boot an 11/24 just this AM. Stumbled upon it, actually.)
>
>
>I don't know about RT - all my experience is with RSX11M+ but I would guess

I didn't mean to say RT was on any of the disk packs I tried to
bootup.Truthfully, I do not know which: RT-11 or RSX-11M as the bootable
packs were not marked. I did try a couple of the RSX-11M Distribution packs.

>that it is not seeing the boot sectors.  IE: try another platter.  Before

I've tried at least a half dozen packs some of which are bootable as
mentioned above. Exact same results.

>inserting another disk check / clean the heads, check the old platter for
>those nasty rings.

Nasty rings? What are those??

Thanks again, CHris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/


From yowza at yowza.com  Tue Dec 15 21:19:39 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: Digital Technical Journal
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I have 11 issues or so of the Digital Technical Journal starting with
issue #2.  These cover from about 1986 to 1990 (I don't have them in front
of me, but that's about the range) and are mostly of interest to VAX
heads (and I have tried to clear my head of anything VAX-related).

If you're not familiar with this journal, it's pure techie stuff with lots
of deep insights.  DEC has back issues online, but not this far back I
think:
	http://www.digital.com/info/dtj/dtj-back-issues.htm
and they sell back issues for $16 each, but not this far back!

Make an offer.  Trades welcome.  As with Jim's Sol, let's start the
bidding at $600 and go down from there :-)  (OK, a similar number of old
Kilobauds or Playboys or something would probably do the trick.) 

-- Doug



From fzammett at voicenet.com  Tue Dec 15 21:24:55 1998
From: fzammett at voicenet.com (Frank W. Zammetti)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: Info on Laser 128
References: <000b01be289f$f54678a0$d4adadce@amdk6-2>
Message-ID: <36772807.13999DFB@voicenet.com>


  I used to have a number of Laser machines that were NOT Apple clones
but PC compatibles.  I don't know if this is the case with yours.  Laser
was a PC clone manufacturer until they went out of business maybe 5
years ago, to the best of my knowledge at least.

Frank W. Zammetti
Programmer/Analyst


> Brian Giacoletti wrote:
> 
> Someone i know came across this machine and asked if i could restore
> it.It is a Laser 128 I know it is an Apple II clone but what else can
> anyone tell me about it.I have cleaned this thing out(it was
> filthy)But cant start it up because i have no power cord to do so any
> info will be of great help
> 
> Brian


From gram at cnct.com  Tue Dec 15 21:41:39 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: Computer paint jobs (was Re: SOL feeding frenzy?)
References: 
Message-ID: <36772BF3.6A619113@cnct.com>

Sam Ismail wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:
> 
> > Now faking is another matter. No way would I consider that to be
> > reasonable conduct from a collector. If you have a machine in a rare
> > colour scheme, then it's fine to touch up the paintwork, but not to fake one.
> 
> Don't hold your breath.  I suspect we will be seeing "forged" computers by
> late next year.

Y'know, many times I've thought of painting computers, but never to
"fake" a classic, merely to make a computer I liked look good.  For
instance, I never liked the dingy (and getting dingier every year)
off-white color of the TRS-80 Model 16 and most later Tandy
equipment.  I always thought a Model 4, a 6000HD or a Tandy 2000
would benefit greatly with a trip to the local Earl Scheib outlet
for some nice metalflake or pearlescent coating.  No chrome.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Tue Dec 15 21:29:13 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: anyone need a C64?
Message-ID: 

ive got two i want to sell. one has the standard brown keys, but the other has
white keys instead and a white power supply. the insert/del key is broken off,
but included. the C64 with the normal colours is complete. either one will
come with a power supply. both presumed working, but i have not a video cable
to verify video. make a whimsical offer including shipping from NC. 

david


From pctech at davidbowie.com  Tue Dec 15 21:55:53 1998
From: pctech at davidbowie.com (Brian Giacoletti)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: anyone need a C64?
Message-ID: <000d01be28a7$fdd1ff00$c1c4adce@amdk6-2>

How about $25.00 for both.
-----Original Message-----
From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 7:54 PM
Subject: anyone need a C64?


>ive got two i want to sell. one has the standard brown keys, but the other
has
>white keys instead and a white power supply. the insert/del key is broken
off,
>but included. the C64 with the normal colours is complete. either one will
>come with a power supply. both presumed working, but i have not a video
cable
>to verify video. make a whimsical offer including shipping from NC.
>
>david



From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Tue Dec 15 21:26:10 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: Info on Laser 128
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 12/15/98 10:03:07 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
pctech@davidbowie.com writes:

> 
>  Someone i know came across this machine and asked if i could restore it.It 
> is a Laser 128 I know it is an Apple II clone but what else can anyone tell 
> me about it.I have cleaned this thing out(it was filthy)But cant start it up
> because i have no power cord to do so any info will be of great help
>  
>  Brian


if it's just the laser 128 and not an ex model, then it's pretty much a //c
wannabe. ive heard it said that a //c power supply will get it working but
i've never verified it. the slot on the left side can take an option card like
a disk ][ controller. IIRC, control-open apple-P or control-reset-P gets you
into control panel. 

david


From jimw at agora.rdrop.com  Tue Dec 15 22:05:05 1998
From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.5.32.19981215164149.009b8d10@pc>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981215200505.0092c044@agora.rdrop.com>

At 08:09 PM 12/15/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
>BTW, have you seen my Sol museum?
>	http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/sol/
>
>-- Doug

AARGH!!!  a guilt trip!  (and well done I might add)

-jim

---
jimw@agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174




From roblwill at usaor.net  Wed Dec 16 01:05:09 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: Computer paint jobs (was Re: SOL feeding frenzy?)
Message-ID: <01be28c2$6ae65900$b28ea6d1@the-general>

>Y'know, many times I've thought of painting computers, but never to
>"fake" a classic, merely to make a computer I liked look good.  For
>instance, I never liked the dingy (and getting dingier every year)
>off-white color of the TRS-80 Model 16 and most later Tandy
>equipment.  I always thought a Model 4, a 6000HD or a Tandy 2000
>would benefit greatly with a trip to the local Earl Scheib outlet
>for some nice metalflake or pearlescent coating.  No chrome.
>--

I have a Compaq laptop that I had repainted because it was all covered from
some sort of soot or something.  It's not black, with silver accents.  I had
another computer that someone actually DID have chrome plating put on it (I
don't know how).  It was a Tandy 1110HD laptop.  It looked pretty neat,
after a black keyboard was put into it.  Unfortunately, it was dropped, and
the screen shattered (I was letting someone borrow it).  I got it back,
didn't worry about it much, because I never really used it that often.  I
eventually ended up selling it for $30 at a flea market, as-was because I
found out it wasn't really worth it to get a new screen for it.  Now, if it
was an 1800, I would have bought a new screen for it...
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From cube at msn.fullfeed.com  Tue Dec 15 21:51:49 1998
From: cube at msn.fullfeed.com (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: Computer paint jobs (was Re: SOL feeding frenzy?)
In-Reply-To: <36772BF3.6A619113@cnct.com>
References: 
Message-ID: <199812160419.WAA13210@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com>

I know of a couple interesting paint jobs from the past.

The first was on a 360/65 MP (multiprocessor) system at Wisconsin DOT.
Standard IBM
colors for that machine was blue.  But DOT managed to convince IBM to make
a red one.  The
cable duct between the CPU's was sexy black.  It was one very nice looking
system ( and
lots of lights!).

The other was that Intel actually did use silver automotive paint on some
of their Intel Scientific
machines.  I tried to get the same paintjob on an Intel (then Jupiter
technologies) FastPath 
(IBM Channel Attached Ethernet controller) in the 80's, and got close, but
wasn't able to get 
Jupiter to do it.

Jay

>> 
>> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:
>> 
>> > Now faking is another matter. No way would I consider that to be
>> > reasonable conduct from a collector. If you have a machine in a rare
>> > colour scheme, then it's fine to touch up the paintwork, but not to
fake one.
>> 

---	
Jay R. Jaeger					The Computer Collection
Jay.Jaeger@msn.fullfeed.com	visit http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~cube


From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com  Tue Dec 15 22:38:04 1998
From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: Emulex doc archive site gone now . . .
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981215093758.00af1920@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981215203804.0096db70@mail.bluefeathertech.com>

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From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Dec 15 23:20:18 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: OT: Value/money making (was Re: SOL feeding frenzy?)
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981215175022.00aafdf0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
References:  <4.1.19981215134011.00ba8b30@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
Message-ID: 

Chuck McManis wrote:
>So the role of "collector" takes on more the role of "caretaker." You and I
>are classic computer caretakers, we care about the computers, we care about
>their history, we care about how they are used, and we care that they will
>survive us. People who buy and sell "collectible" computers in order to
>increase their personal wealth are "collectors" in the more common usage of
>the word. The collectors are "moving in" and the caretakers job gets harder.

Dunno, I kind of prefer the terms "Hobbiest" and "Speculator", and have
started using them occasionally to refer to the two types.  My concern is
what happens when a speculator sits on one of these systems for a year or
two, not able to get what he thinks he should out of it.

In the long run, how viable will the classic computer market be for the
speculator?  These systems take up a LOT of room as most of us from what it
costs us to store them.  I've got a 10,000+ comicbook collection that is
worth a lot more and takes up a lot less space.  This is the kind of thing
that speculators will look at.  This is why Resellers supporting the old
systems charge the big $$$'s.

			Zane


| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From yowza at yowza.com  Wed Dec 16 00:19:16 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:16 2005
Subject: Xerox
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Max Eskin wrote:

> Well, I'm afraid I didn't understand your reply about how Star was
> better than other UIs, Hans (sorry I can't quote the message). I can't
> see how a UI could really completely obscure the hardware of a machine
> (I think that's what you meant). What if you need to save to a floppy
> disk? How do you obscure the physical machine in that?

Uncle Roger and I went to hear Engelbart and the gang reminisce about the
good old days of NLS recently (mouse, GUI, hypertext, etc. 5 years before
the Alto).

One of the messages was that Xerox (and Apple, and Microsoft) didn't get
it.  The GUI has come to mean "easy enough for an idiot to use", but the
original NLS message was "let the machine allow you to be smarter than you
really are".  It's a subtle but important difference, and the NLS mindset
means that you don't necessarily try to hide the underlying machine or
make everything WYSIWYG *if there are more powerful ways to work*.

> I haven't really looked at smalltalk, but here I have a 1983 issue of
> Popular Computing that describes it. It shows a sample which sadly makes
> little sense to an unenlightened one :( Is there a free version of
> Smalltalk for the PC that you would recommend for learning?

Yes!  If fact, Alan Kay et al have implemented a new(er) Smalltalk-like
language called Squeak that was made just for you!  (Thanks to Rax for
pointing this out.)
	 http://st-www.cs.uiuc.edu/squeak/

> How does smalltalk compare to LISP? I've got a book on LISP that I haven't
> looked through due to lack of time.

I think the only similarity might be garbage collection and no pointers
(essentially the same thing).  They're not related at all, AFAIK.

> Also, you said that OS/2 is more OO than others. Which version? I have 2.0
> here and not only is it slower than molasses, it's basically the same as
> Windows 95 in terms of design, implementation, and so on.

OO stands for Oh so modular and Oh so slow.  :-)

There's nothing magic about "objects."  The Object Guys emphasize data
over procedures, and the Procedural Guys vice versa (ooh, more Latin,
sorry Sam).

-- Doug



From foxnhare at goldrush.com  Tue Dec 15 21:39:47 1998
From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
References: <199812150802.AAA26252@lists5.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <36772B81.62FD11EE@goldrush.com>

> From: "Hans Franke" 
> Subject: Re: "Single instance" machines
> 
> > > And by the way, to catch up with the title - is there any
> > > other Commodore B500 around, or a Pascal Microengine ?
> 
> > I hear of more of the P/B500 in europe then here, actually in the U.S. I think
> > there are maybe three or so around, since they never were oficially released
> > past the late prototype stage (due to one of Commodore's run-ins with the
> > FCC).  Dunno how many (if any) they sold in europe.
> 
> I never have seen any B500 beside mine, but I know the P500
> story - just the B500 is more like the B128/CBM 600.

So no joystick ports, or VIC-II chip?  Hmm, from examinging the PCB, I wonder
if it is a universal design, cause there are a bunch of unused pads here and
there (looks like it could sport 128k, and there was another connector pad
(besides the co-processor one), maybe for more RAM?

If anyone has a B-128 handy; pop it open, the joyport sockets would be in the
far left-hand corner, (if you look from the 'front' of the board)  I've been
curious about this.  :/

0010111101101010011110000101001

> From: "Hans Franke" 
> Subject: Re: "Single instance" machines
> 
> CBM 9000 aka MMF aka SuperPET - still kind of a dream for most
> commo collectors (like the 900). Other than the most desired
> rare Commodores, the 9000 was a production unit and supported.

Also alot of schools (secondary and more so, colleges) bought them. 

0001010110101001001001110101001010

Here is a clip from an E-Mail I had received from one of the 900 designers!

> >> I worked for Commodore back in then.
> >
> >Must have been something, Commodore was doing pretty well in the home computer
> >wars then.
> 
> It was fun :-)  I live in Denmark and we managed to put a C64 under every
> other xmas-tree that one year (we assumed that every house had a tree)
> 
> >> I notice you havn't got any of the CBM-900 computers ?
> >
> >I have never heard of them, I am assuming they are related to the 700 series? 
> >The only thing I got so far in that line (B/P series) is the P-500, rare in
> >itself.  Maybe one day I'll get more of those no rush though, I am a frugal
> >collector.   :)
> 
> The 900 was probably commodores biggest mistake, they canned it you see.
> It was a Z8001 based UNIX (Actually Mark Williams "Coherent") workstation
> with a BW graphical display (I think it did close to 1M pixels).
> 
> Unfortunately they had to choose between the 900 and the amiga, if they
> had stuck to the 900 they would have owned the UNIX workstation market.
> 
> The amiga wasn't bad either mind you.
> 
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp             FreeBSD coreteam member
> ///////////////               "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
> "ttyv0" -- What UNIX calls a $20K state-of-the-art, 3D, hi-res color terminal

000101001010011010100100110

> From: Roger Merchberger 
> Subject: Re: Value
> Common classics are hard to come by around here -- the closest thing to
> kinda rare I have is (that I know of):
> 
> Trackball for an Atari 5200 (serial #786)
> Commodore B-128 (local college garage sale)
> 2 Superbrains (local college garage sale; anybody have boot disks???)
> Tandy 600 (sent to me by a good friend in California 'cause it didn't work)
> 
> I honestly don't know if these are actually rare... almost everything up
> here is rare (to me) and all of this wild, wicked stuff like OSI
> Challengers, Ohio Scientific, and who knows what...

I don't think they are all that rare, but the B-128 and the Superbrains are
probably a couple of the more interesting classic computers...




From ddameron at earthlink.net  Wed Dec 16 00:28:40 1998
From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
Message-ID: <199812160628.WAA08843@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

I was looked through some older magazines and found another computer kit
from about 1959, 1960, a full page ad for the "geniac". It has 6 dials, each
with 16 sets of radial holes. It's cost was US$19.95 and made in Mass.  My
guess is it was electro-mechanical, but could not tell any more from the ad.
The ad said it could play "Nim", but that doesn't seem to be that unusual.
Has anyone seen one or knows what it did?
Thanks,
-Dave



From jpl15 at netcom.com  Wed Dec 16 00:48:00 1998
From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: <199812160628.WAA08843@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, dave dameron wrote:

> I was looked through some older magazines and found another computer kit
> from about 1959, 1960, a full page ad for the "geniac". It has 6 dials, each
> with 16 sets of radial holes. It's cost was US$19.95 and made in Mass.  My

(ssnip)

> -Dave
> 
> 

  Before me is a little book from my childhood..  one I had in 4th
grade, lost, and recently found another copy of. It is "The Space
Child's Mother Goose" and was printed in 1958. (I read it in 1960) It
is a unique collection of 'modernized' nursery rhymes, with
whimsical fine-point pen drawings. On page 36 is a drawing of a kid
standing on a stool, writing formulae on the blackboard and operating
a Geniac, while off to one side a Bearded Professor exhibits great
surprise. The rhyme for this page is: 


   Geniac, Geniac,
    Digital miracle,
   Giving and answer that's
    Truly empirical.
   Learned men, lost in a 
    Drawjopping daze,
   Watch six-year-old Seniors, all
    Grabbing off A's.



  Note that the strangely spelt word in the text is as it appears; 
part of the magic of this little book and perhaps partly an
explanation for The Way I Am today...  draw your own conclusions. 

      ;}


  Cheers and Best of the Season

John



From yowza at yowza.com  Wed Dec 16 00:50:02 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: <199812160628.WAA08843@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, dave dameron wrote:

> I was looked through some older magazines and found another computer kit
> from about 1959, 1960, a full page ad for the "geniac". It has 6 dials, each
> with 16 sets of radial holes. It's cost was US$19.95 and made in Mass.  My
> guess is it was electro-mechanical, but could not tell any more from the ad.
> The ad said it could play "Nim", but that doesn't seem to be that unusual.
> Has anyone seen one or knows what it did?

Geez, Dave, you're stealing all of my thunder.  Can't you wait until I
open up my museum of personal computing?  :-)

The GENIAC was designed by Edmund Berkeley in 1955 and sold by his buddy
Oliver Garfield until the late 50's.  Thomas Haddock calls the GENIAC the
first pc.  He was close, but wrong.

A nice guy by the name of Tom Boyko has a GENIAC (please, dealers, don't
bug him about selling it):

Here are some pics of the manual:
	http://www.Tom.Boyko.com/comp.htm

And here's an excellent Usenet account of how the GENIAC works:
	http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=213505518

-- Doug




From gram at cnct.com  Wed Dec 16 01:24:26 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
References: <199812160628.WAA08843@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3677602A.B056BE1B@cnct.com>

dave dameron wrote:
> 
> I was looked through some older magazines and found another computer kit
> from about 1959, 1960, a full page ad for the "geniac". It has 6 dials, each
> with 16 sets of radial holes. It's cost was US$19.95 and made in Mass.  My
> guess is it was electro-mechanical, but could not tell any more from the ad.
> The ad said it could play "Nim", but that doesn't seem to be that unusual.
> Has anyone seen one or knows what it did?

Hell, with the DigiComp I could play Nim, with far less logic and
zero electricity.  Wish I still had mine.  Got to use those scans
and build one from scratch (and I'm not much of a machinist even
with plastic [I flunked balsa]).  Nim is computationally gagloads
simpler than tic-tac-toe.

I'd love to see plans, scans, schematics for the Geniac as well,
though, apparently it's barely younger (by commercial delivery date)
than the Univac One.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From yowza at yowza.com  Wed Dec 16 01:24:53 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: <3677602A.B056BE1B@cnct.com>
Message-ID: 

[have I reached my posting limit yet?]

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:

> I'd love to see plans, scans, schematics for the Geniac as well,
> though, apparently it's barely younger (by commercial delivery date)
> than the Univac One.

Surprise: the same guy is responsible for both.

-- Doug



From gram at cnct.com  Wed Dec 16 02:19:28 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
References: 
Message-ID: <36776D10.68D61871@cnct.com>

Doug Yowza wrote:
> 
> [have I reached my posting limit yet?]

Dunno.  Do you have one?

> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:
> 
> > I'd love to see plans, scans, schematics for the Geniac as well,
> > though, apparently it's barely younger (by commercial delivery date)
> > than the Univac One.
> 
> Surprise: the same guy is responsible for both.

Really doesn't surprise me that much, though I wasn't really
following the literature at the time, occupied as I was with
being born and then "mewling and puking in his mother's arms"
to quote Bill Shakespeare.  I'd still like to see diagrams for
the Geniac, though.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Wed Dec 16 02:36:21 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: OT: Value/money making (was Re: SOL feeding frenzy?)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote:

> Dunno, I kind of prefer the terms "Hobbiest" and "Speculator", and have
> started using them occasionally to refer to the two types.  My concern is
> what happens when a speculator sits on one of these systems for a year or
> two, not able to get what he thinks he should out of it.

Yes, and in that year the bits in the ROM finally give out and are lost
forever.

> In the long run, how viable will the classic computer market be for the
> speculator?  These systems take up a LOT of room as most of us from what it
> costs us to store them.  I've got a 10,000+ comicbook collection that is
> worth a lot more and takes up a lot less space.  This is the kind of thing
> that speculators will look at.  This is why Resellers supporting the old
> systems charge the big $$$'s.

As long as people are willing to spend ridiculous amounts of money then it
will continue to be viable.  I thought it would start waning by now but
these bidding wars keep getting more ferocious.  Now I'm not so sure if
this "market" has a bottom.  This could be the new status quo, which would
be unfortunate.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec 16 05:20:53 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <3676DE61.96199089@digiweb.com>
Message-ID: <199812161021.KAA01413@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > Lets see, I will be in Bern in january, maybe I could add
> > a short jump to your place.

> Well, that is helf way here from Munich. I would be pleased to show you
> around our "little" collection.

As long as you can take the drool stains
(I learned a new word :))).

Gruss
hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From altair8800 at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 16 05:18:14 1998
From: altair8800 at hotmail.com (Bob Wood)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s
Message-ID: <19981216111815.5662.qmail@hotmail.com>


From: Doug Yowza 


Wait a minute.  Who's high bidder right now?  Why it's Dealer Bob.  Hi, 
Bob.  I thought you were only into Altairs :-)

 Doug

When I was in high school a friend and I saw one of these.
He was so inspired by this thing's ability to
play tic, tac, toe that he built a similar
device from my pinball machine parts and entered
it into the local Science Fair. 

The Minivac is interesting to me because (being an old
man) my tinkering began with electro-mechanical technology.
I could look at this stuff and "see" how it works.
I found it very difficult to make the transition to
solid state and digital technology.  After so many years
of relays and blade switches, I just could not "see" what
was happening inside those IC packages. For that reason
I walked away from it. I now wish I had approached it differently.

As for my "Dealer Bob" status, afraid I still have most
of the Altairs. I have only sold duplicate items and 
not even all of the duplicates. Still have both of my
Attaches. Have become way too attached to the stuff.

Bob Wood









______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From yowza at yowza.com  Wed Dec 16 05:36:47 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s
In-Reply-To: <19981216111815.5662.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: 

[i should be asleep.]

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Bob Wood wrote:

> The Minivac is interesting to me because (being an old man) my tinkering
> began with electro-mechanical technology.

That's great.  It sounds like you're starting to become a computer
collector after all.  Nostalgia marks the first stage.
 
> As for my "Dealer Bob" status, afraid I still have most of the Altairs.
> I have only sold duplicate items and not even all of the duplicates.
> Still have both of my Attaches. Have become way too attached to the
> stuff. 

I'm sure any number of people on this list would be willing to help you
out, as long as you're willing to live with a slim margin.

What do you say?  Reform your ways.  Let the bounty flow.  Make money some
other way and spread the word that computer collectors are a bunch of
hot-headed penny-pinching geeks who you found impossible to make a buck
from.

I'll even offer to take one of those obscure iComs from you as a
good-faith gesture :-)

-- Doug



From Innfogra at aol.com  Wed Dec 16 06:21:26 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: ebay  intrusion
Message-ID: <71e2b110.3677a5c6@aol.com>

Sorry about the ebay intrusion. I queried them to find out how to do a search
on the description and forgot I was doing it from within the list. I seem to
be able to search only by title, number, buyer, seller and completed titles.
Paxton


From cfandt at netsync.net  Wed Dec 16 07:44:06 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: RSX-11M site? Was: Re: Emulex doc archive site gone now . . .
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981215203804.0096db70@mail.bluefeathertech.com>
References: <4.1.19981215093758.00af1920@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981216081918.00ada100@206.231.8.2>

At 20:38 12/15/98 -0800, Bruce Lane wrote: 
>
> At 09:46 15-12-98 -0500, Chris Fandt wrote: 
>
> >Well, I guess we lost an RSX document resource for some reason. 
> >http://rsxbbs.delconet.com/ has a shouting message and graphic: 
> >"Due to negative comments by posters to vmsnet.pdp-11, 
> > the RSX BBS was decommissioned on 13 December 1998. 
>
>          
>
>         I visited this web site just recently, purely out of curiousity.
Parts
> of the site were clearly marked with warnings against linking to it, and
> outright said things like 'Yes, we have an attitude problem' and other
> nastiness. I found the entire tone to be rude in the extreme. 
>
>         While it may have been a decent RSX resource, I would have to ask
> myself 'is said resource really worth putting up with the site owner's poor
> people skills, and apparent willingness to be offended at the slightest
> criticism, constructive or otherwise?' 
>
>         From what I've seen, it looks a lot like a case of a very insecure
> control freak effectively saying 'If you're not gonna play by MY rules, I'm
> gonna take my marbles and go HOME!' I can only speak for myself, but I say
> 'good riddance' and I hope the owner will be very happy with his piles of
> documents and whatever else they've got. 


A couple other list members and I had a message or two about this guy and my
take on him is that he's quite emotionally immature. Just like my wife's
ex-husband who who definitely is an immature control freak according to all
ex-friends and ex-employers. Deja Vu. He even messes up my 5 1/2 yr-old stepson
everytime he visits his father. (Don't get me started in rant mode!)  What does
Mr. Mitchell have to prove otherwise by such an attitude??


>
> >I cannot keep up with Usenet groups for lack of time. Anybody know what the 
> >'negative comments' were about that I (we) missed? 
>
>         I'm sorry, I thought you knew. Seems that the site's owner didn't
like
> other people providing links to his site. Paranoid, I guess, or they simply
> didn't like free advertising. It turned into a shouting match with others on
> Usenet, and it looks like he removed the resource purely out of spite. 


>
> Well Bruce, usually every week or ten days try to I take time to scan the
> bunch of NGs that I try to pay attention to. I missed the mess on
> vmsnet.pdp-11 (thank God!) so wasn't aware of the potential loss. Yes, good
> riddance to such a volitile character.


So, to get to the theme of the revised Subject line, anybody know of a similar
RSX-11M resource online? 

For that matter, who are the on-list RSX-11 experts (like our Megan is to
RT-11)?

Over the next months when I can grab time, I'm going to be getting more and
more into RSX-11M+ v. 3.0 on my uPDP-11 and RSX-11M v. 4.1 or 4.2 on my 11/34A.
I may need to ask questions not found (or understood) in my manual set.

Thanks all.

Regards,  Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec 16 08:58:08 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.5.32.19981215164149.009b8d10@pc>
Message-ID: <199812161359.NAA00431@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> BTW, have you seen my Sol museum?
> 	http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/sol/

Thats also a good way to get one. I just like to
know the final price you agree to pay :)

Doug der Sandlöwe.
(Sandlion ? I don't know the exact english term.
It is a small insect, that digs a hole into sand,
like a funnel/crater and waits on below the ground
until an ant or similar creature steps into the
hole and is traped by the sliding sand :)

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec 16 08:58:08 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <36772B81.62FD11EE@goldrush.com>
Message-ID: <199812161359.NAA00439@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > > > And by the way, to catch up with the title - is there any
> > > > other Commodore B500 around, or a Pascal Microengine ?
> > > I hear of more of the P/B500 in europe then here, actually in the U.S. I think
> > > there are maybe three or so around, since they never were oficially released
> > > past the late prototype stage (due to one of Commodore's run-ins with the
> > > FCC).  Dunno how many (if any) they sold in europe.
> > I never have seen any B500 beside mine, but I know the P500
> > story - just the B500 is more like the B128/CBM 600.

> So no joystick ports, or VIC-II chip?  Hmm, from examinging the PCB, I wonder
> if it is a universal design, cause there are a bunch of unused pads here and
> there (looks like it could sport 128k, and there was another connector pad
> (besides the co-processor one), maybe for more RAM?

The design is similar to the 600 (whitch is I think the B-128 board)
The B500 is almost a 600 - the PCB is dated a bit earler than the
earlyest 600 I know and the PS mounting is diferent, but basicly
the same. No, there are no joysticks and no VIC-II, but the port
for the joysticks is available (like on the 600). The unit has
128 K of RAM an spares for another 128 K.

> If anyone has a B-128 handy; pop it open, the joyport sockets would be in the
> far left-hand corner, (if you look from the 'front' of the board)  I've been
> curious about this.  :/

The port pins are available ... but to be shure I will
open both this evening - I have them richt now in the
living room :)

Maybe I'll take the B500 to VCF 4.0 we just need some
other P500 and B128 and 600s and 700s for a comparable
display (No, for VCF 3.0 I finaly want to show up with
some eastern European units).

> > CBM 9000 aka MMF aka SuperPET - still kind of a dream for most
> > commo collectors (like the 900). Other than the most desired
> > rare Commodores, the 9000 was a production unit and supported.

> Also alot of schools (secondary and more so, colleges) bought them. 

Shure ? In Germany they have been very rare, since the price
was almost double the 8032 12".

Servus
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec 16 08:58:08 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: Value
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.16.19981215161455.7be7b8d4@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <199812161359.NAA00436@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Uncle Roger wrote:
> > Chaque a' son gout, the lady said as she kissed the cow.  8^)

> Can we stick to English on this list?  All these Latin and French quotes
> are all Greek to me!

> (ok, that was a stupid pun, I admit, but the sentiment is genuine :)

Key Halak Ya'akhi Salaam.
(Hope this is less greek :)

'Till now, non english inserts have only be made on a very
usual level. This amount of French, Latin and Greek is
still within common knowlege - or ?

> (Hans' German tagline is exempted :)

Thanks a lot - I think I'll have to variate to give
you new stuff for your German course :)

Pfiad di
Hans

--
Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh.
H.Achternbusch


From nabil at teleport.com  Wed Dec 16 08:06:19 1998
From: nabil at teleport.com (nabil@teleport.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: Free PDP-8/10/11 (and related hardware) manuals (&boards)
Message-ID: <199812161406.GAA01873@user1.teleport.com>


Free (*) manuals, maybe some hardware too.

Multiple sets of ASR-33 teletype maintainance volumes and print sets.

Dynex Series 6000 Disk Drive instruction (/maint) manual.

System Industries Model 3040 manual.
System Industries Modem 3051 print set.
(I have the OMNIBUS card for these around here someplace too.)

Diablo Series 40 print set & manual.

Plessy PM-80 (or something like that) prints set & manual (I think 
I have one or two of the cards too), it's OMNIBUS core memory.

Four trays of PDP-11 paper-tape diagnostics.

Some kind of Roytron/Litton OEM punch manual (I need to look at this
one and make sure it's not something in a DEC box).

PDP11 PAL/EDIT/ODT/PIP/LINK/LIBR manual.

PDP-8/e (ONLY!) maintainance manual Vol 1. (note: old version!)

PDP10 reference handbook. (big)

Decsystem 10 TECO

Decsystem 10 Users Handbook, 2nd ed (big)

EMAIL replies to me, not to the newsgroup or mailing list.

(*):  Free for the cost of shipping.  I will use subjective criteria 
in resolving between multiple requesters for the same material.  I 
apologize in advance if I do not personally reply to you.


-- 
Aaron Nabil
nabil@teleport.com


From jfoust at threedee.com  Wed Dec 16 08:30:25 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.5.32.19981215164149.009b8d10@pc>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981216083025.00f8b740@pc>

At 08:09 PM 12/15/98 -0600, Doug Yowza wrote:
>Unfortunately, there's little correlation.  I routinely spent that or more
>on stock certificates, but that doesn't mean I hold them very long.

Tony Duell said "Doesn't that rather depend who the people are?", and
you say something similar, and I must say I agree - but my point is,
unless you know something about the character of these buyers, you
don't know whether they're planning on preserving the machine or not.

To use my deflated Microsoft millionaire example, that person is
perfectly capable of paying $6K for an Altair and then paying someone
to insure it's up and running.  Is the "Computer rescue squad" concept
only good for acquiring machines, or is it for hire to help keep machines
alive?  If an old machine's ROMs fail while it's being held by a
speculator, chances are they'll pay to have it fixed, if the price
for a working machine is significantly higher.  

Overall, I think these (supposed) higher prices are a Good Thing for 
the preservation of old computers.  It means fewer will be scrapped, 
and more people will know they should be saved, either for their 
cash value, or for their sentimental value, or both.

And again I must emphasize, tales of these inflated sale prices are
highly anecdotal and not fact-checked.  Perhaps we should sooth our
souls by believing these buyers are conscientious instead of uncaring.
With the dearth of evidence or direct testimony, we might as well
wear rose-colored glasses.

>BTW, have you seen my Sol museum?
>	http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/sol/

Hmm, good idea.  The unscrupulous could set up fake computer museums,
testifying to their good character, placing poor quality but honest
photos showing the lovingly restored and maintained machines, and
then beg for donations of cash and old computers.

>I routinely spent that or more
>on stock certificates, but that doesn't mean I hold them very long.

You E*Trade speculators, you're destroying the good ol' stock broker
lifestyle, playing day trader, denying an honest commission to a 
starving professional - and I bet you don't even care about the
fate of Netscape or AOL or Xoom, do you, as long as you're making 
a profit?  :-)  

- John



From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Wed Dec 16 08:46:38 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <199812161359.NAA00439@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 16, 98 02:59:08 pm
Message-ID: <199812161446.GAA21550@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From bill at chipware.com  Wed Dec 16 09:39:29 1998
From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: Computer paint jobs (was Re: SOL feeding frenzy?)
In-Reply-To: <01be28c2$6ae65900$b28ea6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: <001001be290a$45390890$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com>

In one of the Ohio Scientific C2's I have, the face
plate of one of the 8 inch floppies has been painted
gold!  The rest of the unit was classic tan/brown
and the guy I got it from had no idea why.


From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com  Wed Dec 16 09:39:15 1998
From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: RSX-11M site? Was: Re: Emulex doc archive site gone now . . .
Message-ID: <981216103915.2f00092d@trailing-edge.com>

>So, to get to the theme of the revised Subject line, anybody know of a similar
>RSX-11M resource online? 

I'm not sure exactly what you want when you mean "similar", but all the
RSX-11 DECUS SIG tapes are online at

ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/rsx/decus/

You'll find the index to each SIG tape there, as well as the outputs of
a few useful searches (like a search for all references to the MultiTasker
newsletter.)

>For that matter, who are the on-list RSX-11 experts (like our Megan is to
>RT-11)?

If you want to know about industrial process control under RSX-11M, I can
point you to a few good resources.  Be prepared to pay between $100 and
$200/hr for the experts.

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec 16 10:47:54 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: anyone need a C64?
In-Reply-To: <000d01be28a7$fdd1ff00$c1c4adce@amdk6-2>
Message-ID: <199812161549.PAA14405@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> How about $25.00 for both.

Again, someone is trying to push the price :)
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec 16 10:47:54 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <199812161446.GAA21550@oa.ptloma.edu>
References: <199812161359.NAA00439@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 16, 98 02:59:08 pm
Message-ID: <199812161549.PAA14408@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> ::The design is similar to the 600 (whitch is I think the B-128 board)
> ::The B500 is almost a 600 - the PCB is dated a bit earler than the
> ::earlyest 600 I know and the PS mounting is diferent, but basicly
> ::the same. No, there are no joysticks and no VIC-II, but the port
> ::for the joysticks is available (like on the 600). The unit has
> ::128 K of RAM an spares for another 128 K.

> From this, then, you're saying that the B500 and P500 are different? Is it
> the P that has the VIC-II, or neither one?

The P has colour display and joy sticks, while the B hasn't

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Wed Dec 16 09:42:42 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
Message-ID: <8a79df16.3677d4f2@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/16/98 9:01:17 AM EST, Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de writes:

<< Doug der Sandl?we.
 (Sandlion ? I don't know the exact english term.
 It is a small insect, that digs a hole into sand,
 like a funnel/crater and waits on below the ground
 until an ant or similar creature steps into the
 hole and is traped by the sliding sand :)
 
 Gruss
 Hans >>

also called antlion, or doodle-bug down here in the south,  LOL. 



From dpeschel at u.washington.edu  Wed Dec 16 10:18:48 1998
From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: OT Netscape help was Re: Neat time-wasters for DEC enthusiasts
In-Reply-To: <01BE2850.00F985C0@slip-32-100-187-39.oh.us.ibm.net> from "Barry A. Watzman" at Dec 15, 98 05:25:56 pm
Message-ID: <199812161618.IAA10836@saul5.u.washington.edu>

I'm sending this to the list in case other people are interested.  Also, I
forgot to copy the sender's e-mail address out of the original message. :)

> OK, I'm having a problem with the list server.
> 
> What do I send to classiccmp@u.washington.edu to get the digest form instead of individual messages ?

Actually, you shouldn't send the request to classiccmp@u.washington.edu
because that address sends mail to all the people on the list -- which is
entirely distinct from the list-processing software!  And the software is
what you want to talk to.

If it makes things easier to understand, I suppose you cuold describe the
list-processing software as "the list itself" or "the list as an entity".

The address for the software is

	listproc@u.washington.edu

And the request you should use is

	set classiccmp mail digest

Put the request in the body of the message.  Don't add a signature.  The
subject doesn't matter.

There are other requests.  Two important ones are

	help

and

	help topics

The "help" request gets you a general help file.  The "help topics" request
gets you a short list of ALL the files you can request.  To my way of
thinking (which tends to start with generalities and go to specifics) the
list of topics is much more helpful than having a single, general, probably
misguided help file.  But you may disagree.

As you can see, I'm not impressed with the documentation here.  It
contradicts itself; it mentions features which I think are not available. 
(I think there's another privilege level above mine.  Also, the sysadmins
here do wierd things to software.) I need to bug someone about this.

For prettier (though not necessarily better) dcumentation, go to

	ftp://ftp.cren.net/listproc

since CREN are the people who wrote the list-processing software.

Good luck,

-- Derek


From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Wed Dec 16 10:28:52 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: anyone need a C64?
In-Reply-To: <199812161549.PAA14405@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 16, 98 04:48:54 pm
Message-ID: <199812161628.IAA21240@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From cmcmanis at freegate.com  Wed Dec 16 10:45:44 1998
From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: OT but free*
In-Reply-To: <981216103915.2f00092d@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981216084329.00929940@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>

I've got an IBM Dock I that works with their Thinkpad laptops (750x series)
that is free to anyone who will pick it up in Sunnyvale CA, $10 + shipping
if you ask me to go down to UPS at this time of year :-)

--Chuck




From dburrows at netpath.net  Wed Dec 16 11:04:54 1998
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: OT but free*
Message-ID: <00bb01be2916$51198980$bf281bce@p166>

I just got a few 750's in without chargers and the batteries are dead.  I
would like to get this for my neice if possible.  I got the thinkpads for
them.  I could give you my FEDX, Airborne, or UPS # if that would make
things any easier.
Please email me off list with your phone # so I can call to discuss.
Thanks

Dan Burrows
336-376-0468
dburrows@netpath.net



>I've got an IBM Dock I that works with their Thinkpad laptops (750x series)
>that is free to anyone who will pick it up in Sunnyvale CA, $10 + shipping
>if you ask me to go down to UPS at this time of year :-)
>
>--Chuck
>
>



From marvin at rain.org  Wed Dec 16 11:11:04 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s
References: 
Message-ID: <3677E9A8.DFB9D094@rain.org>

Doug Yowza wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Bob Wood wrote:
> 
> > As for my "Dealer Bob" status, afraid I still have most of the Altairs.
> > I have only sold duplicate items and not even all of the duplicates.
> > Still have both of my Attaches. Have become way too attached to the
> > stuff.
> 
> I'm sure any number of people on this list would be willing to help you
> out, as long as you're willing to live with a slim margin.
> 
> What do you say?  Reform your ways.  Let the bounty flow.  Make money some
> other way and spread the word that computer collectors are a bunch of
> hot-headed penny-pinching geeks who you found impossible to make a buck
> from.

Slim margin, mend your ways?  I think Bob is doing us all a great service
since without people like him, we would have no idea what our machines might
bring on the open market.  "Slim margin" sounds like it is coming from some
of the kids who seem to think that making a profit on a sale is obscene.  

Doug, I think we need to help you out of your idealistic state.  And always
being willing to help, I, and I only do this to help you out, am willing to
sell you, not one, not two, but THREE, yes THREE original Altair computers. 
Just the computers?  Nope, I'll even throw in the original docs.  But wait,
that is not all, if you act now, I will also throw in another well known
S-100 computer (and this only because I know you), a working Compu-Pro 8/16
box.  But wait again.  We all know that the computers as described are
almost useless and therefore I am willing to throw in not one, not two,  but
FOUR genuine Soroc terminals.  And because I know Sam feels much the same
way you do, I'll even include him in on this deal and let you two bid, er,
decide who will get to take advantage this generous offer.  Just think, you
could be one of the few people who have more than one Altair computer.  Now
we all know that an offer like this cannot last for long, but again, only
because I know you and Sam, I will extend this offer for one whole week. 
What is the price you ask?  Well, I have always wanted to travel the world
and see what kinds of computers are available in the lesser known parts of
the world ... like Europe.  And of course, spending money will be required. 
But just remember the old saying, if you have to ask how much it costs, you
probably can't afford it!


From gram at cnct.com  Wed Dec 16 11:27:59 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
References: <199812161021.KAA01413@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <3677ED9F.A3432706@cnct.com>

Hans Franke wrote:
> 
> > > Lets see, I will be in Bern in january, maybe I could add
> > > a short jump to your place.
> 
> > Well, that is helf way here from Munich. I would be pleased to show you
> > around our "little" collection.
> 
> As long as you can take the drool stains
> (I learned a new word :))).

Learning new words is good.  Due to the way the bunk beds in the
dormitory at Georgia Tech were arranged, I and my roommate from
Berlin learned all sorts of new words from each other that I still
find useful when dropping a tool on my foot.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec 16 13:17:46 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: Xerox
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <199812161818.SAA29311@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

(I'll add to Doug, since he already scored some points)

> On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Max Eskin wrote:
> > Well, I'm afraid I didn't understand your reply about how Star was
> > better than other UIs, Hans (sorry I can't quote the message). I can't
> > see how a UI could really completely obscure the hardware of a machine
> > (I think that's what you meant). What if you need to save to a floppy
> > disk? How do you obscure the physical machine in that?

> One of the messages was that Xerox (and Apple, and Microsoft) didn't get
> it.  The GUI has come to mean "easy enough for an idiot to use", but the
> original NLS message was "let the machine allow you to be smarter than you
> really are".  It's a subtle but important difference, and the NLS mindset
> means that you don't necessarily try to hide the underlying machine or
> make everything WYSIWYG *if there are more powerful ways to work*.

I thought about 'hide' in the sense of not showing technical terms
where they are not needed. For example, with Win you still have a
FD named A: and a HD named C: (or with the Amiga df0: etc.) these
are technical terms that are not necersary for the machine nor the
user either. Or think about file extensions ... etc.

Of course, over the years these artifacts have decreased, but
they are still there and influence new developments (or should
I say hinder ?)

One of the best developments of the last years was the Newton.
Basicly an organizer, but instead of just compressing a desktop
(like WinCE) they developed a new, OO (sorry Doug) way to make
the tool usable - For me it's a notebook that 'thinks' while
I'm writing. They realy designed someting new, exciteing _AND_ 
usefull, a 'thing' to use and enhance the user, not another
stupid technofilled computer. The Newton was a discovery to me
like my first KIM, Apple ][ and the Star (and nothing like it
was between)

> > I haven't really looked at smalltalk, but here I have a 1983 issue of
> > Popular Computing that describes it. It shows a sample which sadly makes
> > little sense to an unenlightened one :( Is there a free version of
> > Smalltalk for the PC that you would recommend for learning?

I didn't use Smalltalk for years, but a good start might be:
http://www.phaidros.com/DIGITALIS/englisch/nav00002.htm
(or better http://www.phaidros.com/DIGITALIS/)
And from IBM there is almost a course:
http://www2.ncsu.edu/eos/info/ece480_info/project/spring96/proj63/www/
IBM supports also with VisualAge for Smalltalk an actual tool with
up to date PC integration (The complete Visual Age series is worth
a try - The best progamming environment fo PCs today). Integration
of Smalltalk into other systems have always been a bit clumbsy,
since Smalltak is selfcontained.

There are several professional (speak made to earn money)
systems available for free (like Smalltalk Express
http://www.objectshare.com/se/seinfo.htm ). I think there
is even a GNU Smaltalk, but I don't know if it can catch up.
Squeak is also free AFAIK.

And for the obscure there is Little Smalltalk - a very tiny, non
graphical system, completely available as source. If I remember
corectly its from a Mr. Budd at the Oregon State Univ.

And classic Smaltalk implementations can run on a 4.77 MHz 8088
with graphical environment in a speed good enough to test it.
And on a 386sx with lets say 2 MB mem its a rocket :)

> Yes!  If fact, Alan Kay et al have implemented a new(er) Smalltalk-like
> language called Squeak that was made just for you!  (Thanks to Rax for
> pointing this out.)
> 	 http://st-www.cs.uiuc.edu/squeak/

Squeak is an interesting implementation (and http://st-www.cs.uiuc.edu/
a good source :). I havn't watched them for a while, but the
web page sounds impressive

> > How does smalltalk compare to LISP? I've got a book on LISP that I haven't
> > looked through due to lack of time.

> I think the only similarity might be garbage collection and no pointers
> (essentially the same thing).  They're not related at all, AFAIK.

Exactly - like Pilot and Basic :)

> > Also, you said that OS/2 is more OO than others. Which version? I have 2.0
> > here and not only is it slower than molasses, it's basically the same as
> > Windows 95 in terms of design, implementation, and so on.

> OO stands for Oh so modular and Oh so slow.  :-)

Ges what, I'm doing Assembly programming, and the concepts are
OO ... and its as fast as ever ... OO isn't a class of tools,
it's a way of thinking, and I like it.

> There's nothing magic about "objects."  The Object Guys emphasize data
> over procedures, and the Procedural Guys vice versa

In fact, there is (almost) no diference between good procedural
and good OO design - at the end there is a machine cycle to be
done - all this concepts are just schools to think and to help
you organize your work. Its just, with all this tools programmers
spend most the time in fighting the concept (and the quirks of
the tool) instead of using it. 

> (ooh, more Latin, sorry Sam).

C'mon, English is based 40% on Latin and French (and the rest
is German), so why bee afraid of just two words :)

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec 16 13:28:22 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: Info on Laser 128
In-Reply-To: <36772807.13999DFB@voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <199812161829.SAA29923@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


>   I used to have a number of Laser machines that were NOT Apple clones
> but PC compatibles.  I don't know if this is the case with yours.  Laser
> was a PC clone manufacturer until they went out of business maybe 5
> years ago, to the best of my knowledge at least.

The 128 is an Apple clone, but you're right, they started
also IBM cloning - like most of the clone companies.

Gruss
Hans

P.S.: I still belive in my theory that IBM cloning was initiated by Apple.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec 16 13:42:34 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s
In-Reply-To: <3677E9A8.DFB9D094@rain.org>
Message-ID: <199812161843.SAA00787@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > > As for my "Dealer Bob" status, afraid I still have most of the Altairs.
> > > I have only sold duplicate items and not even all of the duplicates.
> > > Still have both of my Attaches. Have become way too attached to the
> > > stuff.
> > I'm sure any number of people on this list would be willing to help you
> > out, as long as you're willing to live with a slim margin.

> > What do you say?  Reform your ways.  Let the bounty flow.  Make money some
> > other way and spread the word that computer collectors are a bunch of
> > hot-headed penny-pinching geeks who you found impossible to make a buck
> > from.

Gee, I think we all shlould help.

> Slim margin, mend your ways?  I think Bob is doing us all a great service
> since without people like him, we would have no idea what our machines might
> bring on the open market.  "Slim margin" sounds like it is coming from some
> of the kids who seem to think that making a profit on a sale is obscene.  

If it's that way, I'm also guilty. Profit _is_ obscene. Earning a
life is ok, but profit ? Call me a comunist, but I belive society
and especialy the government is to preserve the chance for everybody
to earn his life - thats why I'm paying almost half my income in taxes.

But anyway, norw Marvin is geting serious:

> Doug, I think we need to help you out of your idealistic state.  And always
> being willing to help, I, and I only do this to help you out, am willing to
> sell you, not one, not two, but THREE, yes THREE original Altair computers. 
> Just the computers?  Nope, I'll even throw in the original docs.  But wait,
> that is not all, if you act now, I will also throw in another well known
> S-100 computer (and this only because I know you), a working Compu-Pro 8/16
> box.  But wait again.  We all know that the computers as described are
> almost useless and therefore I am willing to throw in not one, not two,  but
> FOUR genuine Soroc terminals.  And because I know Sam feels much the same
> way you do, I'll even include him in on this deal and let you two bid, er,
> decide who will get to take advantage this generous offer.  Just think, you
> could be one of the few people who have more than one Altair computer.  Now
> we all know that an offer like this cannot last for long, but again, only
> because I know you and Sam, I will extend this offer for one whole week. 
> What is the price you ask?  Well, I have always wanted to travel the world
> and see what kinds of computers are available in the lesser known parts of
> the world ... like Europe.  And of course, spending money will be required. 

Three Altair, running, with docs, Terminals, etc. ? If you
now add a well known small, orange coloured box and I will
call Pakistan Airways tomorrow morning to order two round
trip tickets California, Bavaria and back.

> But just remember the old saying, if you have to ask how much it costs, you
> probably can't afford it!

But if you don't ask, you're plain stupid.

Gruss
Hans

P.S.: We have a simple taste - simply the best :)


--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From wanderer at bos.nl  Wed Dec 16 14:57:53 1998
From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: Free PDP-8/10/11 (and related hardware) manuals (&boards)
References: <199812161406.GAA01873@user1.teleport.com>
Message-ID: <36781ED1.1CC9@bos.nl>

Hi,

I'm probably already too late, but I can try anyway...

I'm particulary intrested in a copy of the ASR-33 printset,
I have the volumes but not the printset.

Also the papertape diagnostics and the PDP10 reference handbook
are of intrest.

Let me know if they are still available, and I'll send money for
the shipment.

Thanks,

Edward
-- 
The Wanderer                       | Geloof nooit een politicus!
wanderer@bos.nl                    | Europarlementariers:
http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer   | zakkenvullers en dumpplaats voor
Unix Lives!   windows95 is rommel! | mislukte politici.
'96 GSXR 1100R                     | 
See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of
Gates!


From gram at cnct.com  Wed Dec 16 13:45:32 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: Info on Laser 128
References: <199812161829.SAA29923@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <36780DDC.37B0B29D@cnct.com>

Hans Franke wrote:
> 
> >   I used to have a number of Laser machines that were NOT Apple clones
> > but PC compatibles.  I don't know if this is the case with yours.  Laser
> > was a PC clone manufacturer until they went out of business maybe 5
> > years ago, to the best of my knowledge at least.
> 
> The 128 is an Apple clone, but you're right, they started
> also IBM cloning - like most of the clone companies.
> 
> Gruss
> Hans
> 
> P.S.: I still belive in my theory that IBM cloning was initiated by Apple.

Except that there were TRS-80 clones long before the Franklin Ace
initiated Apple II cloning.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec 16 14:44:14 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: Info on Laser 128
In-Reply-To: <36780DDC.37B0B29D@cnct.com>
Message-ID: <199812161945.TAA04264@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > >   I used to have a number of Laser machines that were NOT Apple clones
> > > but PC compatibles.  I don't know if this is the case with yours.  Laser
> > > was a PC clone manufacturer until they went out of business maybe 5
> > > years ago, to the best of my knowledge at least.
> > The 128 is an Apple clone, but you're right, they started
> > also IBM cloning - like most of the clone companies.

> > P.S.: I still belive in my theory that IBM cloning was initiated by Apple.

> Except that there were TRS-80 clones long before the Franklin Ace
> initiated Apple II cloning.

When had Franklin started cloning ?
I remember have seen the first Apple ][ clone in spring 1980.
(But Franklin or Compaq are only the smaler parts of my theory)

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Wed Dec 16 13:59:34 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s
In-Reply-To: <199812161843.SAA00787@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: 


Marvin wrote:

> But just remember the old saying, if you have to ask how much it costs, you
> probably can't afford it!

Ok, Marvin, how much WOULD this impressive generosity of yours cost then?

To counter your offer, and to demonstrate what a nice guy *I* am, I'll
give you my Lisa (not Lisa 2, Lisa) for just the drive up here!  (But
don't be surprised if I have some chores for you to do before you're
allowed to gleefully cart it back home, but really, no strings
attached...just like your gracious offer.)

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Wed Dec 16 14:20:58 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: OT: Learning new words (was RE: "Single instance" machines)
In-Reply-To: <3677ED9F.A3432706@cnct.com>
Message-ID: <000f01be2931$973c4b80$1df438cb@a.davie>

> Learning new words is good.  Due to the way the bunk beds in the
> dormitory at Georgia Tech were arranged, I and my roommate from
> Berlin learned all sorts of new words from each other that I still
> find useful when dropping a tool on my foot.

About 10 years ago our company hired a non-English-speaking artist from
Germany.  Apart from being constantly high, our art department also had a
(mean?) humorous streak.  They taught him a very interesting form of
English - and colourful.  Instead of saying "wow, excellent!", they
convinced him that the correct thing to say was "most spannerlike!", and
that a correct form of greeting was "Hello Sailor!".  There were many more
interesting variations, and his English was eventually, suffice it to say,
unusual :)  Of course, he could swear like a trooper.
A



From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com  Wed Dec 16 14:28:47 1998
From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: OT: Learning new words (was RE: "Single instance" machines)
In-Reply-To: <000f01be2931$973c4b80$1df438cb@a.davie>
Message-ID: <13412297165.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>

[Unusual english post]

Parseparseparseparseparse....
parseparseparse...
Sailor?  Huh?
Parseparseparseparseparse...
Oh.  Darn.
-------


From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Wed Dec 16 14:33:03 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: OT: Learning new words (was RE: "Single instance" machines)
In-Reply-To: <000f01be2931$973c4b80$1df438cb@a.davie> from "Andrew Davie" at Dec 17, 1998 07:20:58 AM
Message-ID: <199812162033.NAA18636@calico.litterbox.com>

> About 10 years ago our company hired a non-English-speaking artist from
> Germany.  Apart from being constantly high, our art department also had a
> (mean?) humorous streak.  They taught him a very interesting form of
> English - and colourful.  Instead of saying "wow, excellent!", they
> convinced him that the correct thing to say was "most spannerlike!", and
> that a correct form of greeting was "Hello Sailor!".  There were many more
> interesting variations, and his English was eventually, suffice it to say,
> unusual :)  Of course, he could swear like a trooper.
> A

I'm reminded of the Monty Python sketch.  "My hovercraft is full of eels"

-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From yowza at yowza.com  Wed Dec 16 14:34:16 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s
In-Reply-To: <3677E9A8.DFB9D094@rain.org>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote:

> What is the price you ask?  Well, I have always wanted to travel the world
> and see what kinds of computers are available in the lesser known parts of
> the world ... like Europe.  And of course, spending money will be required. 

Done deal.  We're sending you to live with Hans (Munich) and Hans
(Grenoble) who will show you the most mind-blowing array of computers you
have ever seen (assuming you haven't been to Moffet Field).  How long
would you like to stay?

(Don't worry Hanses, there's a Soroc terminal in it for each of you!)

-- Doug



From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Wed Dec 16 15:07:26 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: Xerox
Message-ID: <009a01be2938$1825f240$23021a26@maxeskin>

>I thought about 'hide' in the sense of not showing technical terms
>where they are not needed. For example, with Win you still have a
>FD named A: and a HD named C: (or with the Amiga df0: etc.)

That's what I'm asking. How do you save to floppy on a Daybreak?

>Or think about file extensions ... etc.

Well, file extensions is questionable. In MS-DOS and relatives, these are
very severely misused. On a Macintosh, they're hidden from the user, and all
nice and neat. Until you want to change something, when you regret that it's
all hidden. In Linux, there are no extensions as far as the system is
concerned, and I must say, I don't miss them at all.


>One of the best developments of the last years was the Newton.


Yes, I sort of like that thing too. I had about an hour of experience with
an e-Mate (a Newton with a bigger screen and a built-in keyboard), and
though it was somewhat disorienting (there is no distinction between an open
file and a stored file, so I was trying to close the word processor for
about 10 minutes before I realized that the concept didn't exist), I thought
it was pretty neat.

>systems available for free (like Smalltalk Express


Yes, I downloaded this last night. Do you think it's any good?

>And classic Smaltalk implementations can run on a 4.77 MHz 8088
>with graphical environment in a speed good enough to test it.
>And on a 386sx with lets say 2 MB mem its a rocket :)


Cool! Are any still available?

>Gruss
>Hans
>
>--
>Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut

>HRK

So what does that mean?



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 16 12:47:36 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: OT: Value/money making (was Re: SOL feeding frenzy?)
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981215175022.00aafdf0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Dec 15, 98 06:09:13 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 16 12:50:59 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To:  from "Sam Ismail" at Dec 15, 98 06:29:04 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 16 13:13:47 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: <3677602A.B056BE1B@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Dec 16, 98 02:24:26 am
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 16 13:24:16 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981216083025.00f8b740@pc> from "John Foust" at Dec 16, 98 08:30:25 am
Message-ID: 

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From cmcmanis at freegate.com  Wed Dec 16 16:15:07 1998
From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: PDP-8 Core
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4.1.19981215175022.00aafdf0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981216141122.00ab4940@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>

At 06:47 PM 12/16/98 +0000, Tony wrote:
>Do you have a non-working core unit, or are you totally without any memory?
>I have an 8/e here (no spare core, sorry), and can probably help you sort out
>non-working driver boards.

I have a working core-plane, and a mostly working G227 board, but the only
G104 board I've come across was modified extensively (It looks as if it was
modified to be an 8K sense amp) The prints on the PSU are pretty straight
forward, I appears to be the feedback loop in the switcher has insufficient
gain to keep the power levels up (and I see a lot of ripple.) I've verified
the filter caps are all good and not leaking.

--Chuck




From marvin at rain.org  Wed Dec 16 16:17:29 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s
References: <199812161843.SAA00787@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <36783179.7EB83535@rain.org>

Hans Franke wrote:
> 
> Three Altair, running, with docs, Terminals, etc. ? If you
> now add a well known small, orange coloured box and I will
> call Pakistan Airways tomorrow morning to order two round
> trip tickets California, Bavaria and back.

I hadn't thought about including others in on that offer, but if it is okay
with Doug and Sam, it is okay with me.  Okay, I'll add one, and only one,
small orange box to the lot to possibly make it actually worth the price I
am asking :).

> 
> > But just remember the old saying, if you have to ask how much it costs, you
> > probably can't afford it!
> 
> But if you don't ask, you're plain stupid.

Depends on who you are dealing with :).


From yowza at yowza.com  Wed Dec 16 16:22:06 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:

> The first was made/cloned/sold by many companies, including radio shack. 
> It consists of a number (8 or 10?) of multi-pole changeover slide 
> swtichs, which are the 'input'. The output is a row of torch (flashlight) 
> bulbs. You 'program' it by patching wires between the switch contacts, 
> thus making up logic gates (2 contacts in series = AND, 2 in parallel = 
> OR, etc). I seem to remember that the manual for the one I had (and 
> probably still have) included wiring for NIM, etc. 
> 
> My main critism was that the various patch diagrams were never 
> explained. OK, so it was fun to make a binary adder or whatever, but to 
> me it would have been even more fun to understand why.

Agreed, I find that this is one of the least interesting early toy
"computers"  for that reason. BTW, in the US it was marketed as the
Science Fair Digital Computer Kit. 

> The other is, I think, considerably rarer. It was made by Philips, and 
> called the CL1600 series. It consists of a number of logic blocks that 
> can be wired (using patch leads) as a general 3-input logic gate. There 
> are 3 input sockets (A,B,C), one output socket (F) with a lamp next to 
> it, and 8 sockets to program the logic function, Another module, the same 
> size contained a battery-operated PSU and 6 input switches

That's one I haven't encountered.  If you get a chance to photocopy the
manual for it, I'll see if I can dig up a service manual of some sort you
don't have yet :-)

-- Doug




From marvin at rain.org  Wed Dec 16 16:25:48 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: OT: Value/money making (was Re: SOL feeding frenzy?)
References: 
Message-ID: <3678336C.F76B505F@rain.org>

Tony Duell wrote:
> 
> >
> > At 07:00 PM 12/15/98 -0600, Doug wrote:
> > >However, if money isn't the main goal, there are alternatives that work.
> > >Following your reasoning, all of the museums would be empty.
> >
> 
> On the other hand, and I think this is the point you're making, when a
> 'collector' takes on a non-working machine, he does not intend to repair
> it. He just wants something to look nice :-(.

Good think you did put "intend" in the sentence.  In the case of a lot of
the machines I have, it would be great to be able to *know* they are all in
good shape and running.  But being realistic for the moment, it would be
close to impossible given the number of machines, the available time, and my
other interests (I was just elected president of the local amateur radio
club among others) to be able to devote enough time to insure they are
workable.  As such, my main goal is to save many of these older systems from
hitting the local dump (an IBM 5110 comes to mind where I was too late.)


From marvin at rain.org  Wed Dec 16 16:42:59 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:17 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s
References: 
Message-ID: <36783773.F6084754@rain.org>

Sam Ismail wrote:
> 
> Marvin wrote:
> 
> > But just remember the old saying, if you have to ask how much it costs, you
> > probably can't afford it!
> 
> Ok, Marvin, how much WOULD this impressive generosity of yours cost then?
> 
> To counter your offer, and to demonstrate what a nice guy *I* am, I'll
> give you my Lisa (not Lisa 2, Lisa) for just the drive up here!  (But
> don't be surprised if I have some chores for you to do before you're
> allowed to gleefully cart it back home, but really, no strings
> attached...just like your gracious offer.)

I've got to admit, we are some of the most generous people I know :).  The
last time I drove up your way, I was told that a truck would be needed to
haul all the stuff back.  I will admit though that my 280 ZX did get a bit
cramped on the way back!  It would be hazardous to my health to drive again
up your way (my wife would kill me) but with a Lisa, it might be worth it
:).


From marvin at rain.org  Wed Dec 16 16:45:50 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s
References: 
Message-ID: <3678381E.88D2B9AA@rain.org>

Doug Yowza wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote:
> 
> > What is the price you ask?  Well, I have always wanted to travel the world
> > and see what kinds of computers are available in the lesser known parts of
> > the world ... like Europe.  And of course, spending money will be required.
> 
> Done deal.  We're sending you to live with Hans (Munich) and Hans
> (Grenoble) who will show you the most mind-blowing array of computers you
> have ever seen (assuming you haven't been to Moffet Field).  How long
> would you like to stay?
> 
> (Don't worry Hanses, there's a Soroc terminal in it for each of you!)

As I told Sam, we sure are a generous group!  I saw the collection at Moffet
Field and in all seriousness, it sure was impressive.  I heard somewhere
that permanent facilities have been established.  Do you know if this is
true, and if so, when it will open to the public?  That collection is a
*must see* for anyone interested in the history of computing!


From erd at infinet.com  Wed Dec 16 16:46:22 1998
From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To:  from "Tony Duell" at Dec 16, 98 07:13:47 pm
Message-ID: <199812162246.RAA29483@user2.infinet.com>

> 
> Here are a couple more 'toy' computers that I've come across, dating from 
> the early 1970's. 
> 
> The first was made/cloned/sold by many companies, including radio shack. 
> It consists of a number (8 or 10?) of multi-pole changeover slide 
> swtichs, which are the 'input'. The output is a row of torch (flashlight) 
> bulbs. You 'program' it by patching wires between the switch contacts, 
> thus making up logic gates (2 contacts in series = AND, 2 in parallel = 
> OR, etc). I seem to remember that the manual for the one I had (and 
> probably still have) included wiring for NIM, etc. 

I had two versions as a kid: in 1976, R-S sold one that had tissue-paper 
light-bulb overlays and a field of holes for a patch board, then by 1978, 
it was revised to use plastic overlays and spring clips fo the wires.

> My main critism was that the various patch diagrams were never 
> explained. OK, so it was fun to make a binary adder or whatever, but to 
> me it would have been even more fun to understand why.

That's why I never did much with mine.  They just gave you full-blown
patch assignments with *zero* explanation of the logic behind it.

-ethan



From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Wed Dec 16 17:03:49 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Xerox
In-Reply-To: <009a01be2938$1825f240$23021a26@maxeskin> from "Max Eskin" at Dec 16, 98 04:07:26 pm
Message-ID: <199812162303.PAA05846@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From jimw at agora.rdrop.com  Wed Dec 16 17:11:20 1998
From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s
In-Reply-To: <3678381E.88D2B9AA@rain.org>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote:

> As I told Sam, we sure are a generous group!  I saw the collection at Moffet
> Field and in all seriousness, it sure was impressive.  I heard somewhere
> that permanent facilities have been established.  Do you know if this is
> true, and if so, when it will open to the public?  That collection is a
> *must see* for anyone interested in the history of computing!

Well... as I recall being stated during the VCF II tour (thanks again
Sam!), they were working the final details with NASA for the large
dirigible hanger near their temporary facillity.

-jim
---
jimw@agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174



From Innfogra at aol.com  Wed Dec 16 17:14:35 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit - Philips?
Message-ID: <1620fb1b.36783edb@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/16/98 1:43:06 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes:

> 
>  The other is, I think, considerably rarer. It was made by Philips, and 
>  called the CL1600 series. It consists of a number of logic blocks that 
>  can be wired (using patch leads) as a general 3-input logic gate. There 
>  are 3 input sockets (A,B,C), one output socket (F) with a lamp next to 
>  it, and 8 sockets to program the logic function, Another module, the same 
>  size contained a battery-operated PSU and 6 input switches

I think I might have a large version of this. I considered it a logic trainer,
not a computer. The description of one of the blocks is the same. "There are 3
input sockets (A,B,C), one output socket (F) with a lamp next to it. Mine are
white, about 2" square. The leads are black with gold tips of three varying
lengths. I also have 6 different logic modules. I have a total of 30 to 50
modules and a couple of hundred leads. The large plug board is about 2' X 3'
and powered by 120V AC. I haven't checked the power supply but I think the
voltage on the logic units is about 2 or 3 volts. The whole assembly fits in
its own wood travel case with handles. 

I have never found any info about this. There is no manufacturer's label
anywhere on the units.

I will try to get pictures of this in the next few days. Thurs. & Fri. I am
out of town, it may wait till I return.

>  
> There were some extension modules that I never had. One seemed to be the 
>  same logic module with a relay as the output in place of the lamp. You 
>  could control little model motors, etc using it. Another was a  flip-flop 
>  module. And there were probably others.
>  


From dpeschel at u.washington.edu  Wed Dec 16 18:25:24 1998
From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Filetypes (was Re: Xerox)
In-Reply-To: <199812162303.PAA05846@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Dec 16, 98 03:03:49 pm
Message-ID: <199812170025.QAA25448@saul5.u.washington.edu>

> That was one thing that seriously irked me about Apple DOS 3.3 was the
> differentiation between Applesoft, Integer BASIC and binary files. I could
> understand text files being a separate file type, but *binaries*?

Yes, I suppose that's rather quaint... modern systems hae solved that
problem -- by not having BASIC built in, which is not necessarily a
solution.  On the other hand, it is true that the two file types are
supposed to work differently.  Would you want to load a machine-language
file and have BASIC interpret it as tokens?  The result would be a disaster.

You could use a UNIX-like approach and have one file type (binary) or maybe
two (binary and text) and leave it up to the user and programmer to choose
the right commands.  I'm not sure that fits in with the "easy-to-program"
mentality of the Apple, though.  Besides, BASIC had already been created
when DOS was designed.

This brings up another point -- given that you have multiple file types,
wouldn't it be safe to have one command that acts differently on all of
them?  (This is the reverse of the UNIX-like apporach.)  It's a pain that
DOS made you use separate commands for all of the filetypes.  Someone
published a chunk of code that added a - command like ProDOS', and some
other goodies.  (I think the code was published by the A.P.P.L.E. user
group, which BTW was a local and very productive group.)

Actually, some of the types aren't really accessible at all!  (There are no
useful commands for displaying text files, for example.  Though EXEC is nice
and not used often enough.)  Did you know that there are EIGHT file types in
DOS?  They are:

	T	text
	I	Integer BASIC
	A	Applesoft BASIC
	B	binary (absolute)
	S	system -- not used by anything except simple protection
	        schemes
	R	relocatable binary -- requires a relocating loader (usually
		called RBOOT or RLOAD, I think).  The relationship between
		the loader and the OS is very weak; I don't know if the
		loader checks the types of files it loads, and I doubt that
		the OS knows about the loader at all.
	A	Another type A -- not used by anything
	B	Another type B -- not used by anything

If you look through memory, you can find the string BARSBAIT.

> The Commodore's filetypes are silly. PRG, SEQ and USR are all just sequential.
> Only REL is truly different.

That is kind of silly.  I assume you couldn't do anything with USR files? 
Again, I object to the lack of available actions more than the artificial
distinction of file types.  Can you get a directory of selected filenames or
types on the Commodore?  Apple DOS doesn't do any wildcards at all (unless
you use FID).

-- Derek


From Watzman at ibm.net  Wed Dec 16 16:52:58 1998
From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
Message-ID: <01BE292B.2ED07AE0@slip-32-100-187-195.oh.us.ibm.net>

I would actually like to be able to buy a "new" IMSAI (for example), even if it wasn't made by IMSAI, but I would want it to be understood that it was a newly produced copy.  It won't happen, however, in part because it would be illegal to make any of these computer as "new" products.  There were no FCC regulations when these machines were originally built, and none of them are in compliance, and they couldn't be put in compliance without a complete redesign (in fact, they are WAY out of compliance).  Most of these were also not UL approved either.  So if they were built, they would have to be described as antiques rather than as new reproductions.

Barry Watzman


----------
From:  Tony Duell [SMTP:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk]
Sent:  Wednesday, December 16, 1998 1:51 PM
To:  Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject:  Re: SOL feeding frenzy?

> Don't hold your breath.  I suspect we will be seeing "forged" computers by
> late next year.

Oh, I agree. There's been the suggestion of a reproduction Apple 1 here 
before. And I have no problem at all with 'reproductions'. Meaning a copy 
that's described as such. It gives more people a chance to use the 
whatever. 

But I do have a problem with faking - describing something as what it 
isn't. I think it will happen, though.

-tony





From Watzman at ibm.net  Wed Dec 16 17:04:07 1998
From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Computer paint jobs (was Re: SOL feeding frenzy?)
Message-ID: <01BE292B.311BF180@slip-32-100-187-195.oh.us.ibm.net>

This may or may not be a description of your situation, but when I worked at Heath/Zenith, we bought "Gold" floppy disk drives directly from the manufacturers of the drives (Shugart, Tandon, etc.) that were painted gold for use as duplicators in producing the commercially sold software (operating systems, languages and applications).  These were hand-calibrated drives with essentially perfect alignment.  Not saying that this is what you have, but it is possible.

Barry Watzman


----------
From:  Bill Sudbrink [SMTP:bill@chipware.com]
Sent:  Wednesday, December 16, 1998 10:39 AM
To:  Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject:  RE: Computer paint jobs (was Re: SOL feeding frenzy?)

In one of the Ohio Scientific C2's I have, the face
plate of one of the 8 inch floppies has been painted
gold!  The rest of the unit was classic tan/brown
and the guy I got it from had no idea why.




From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Wed Dec 16 18:44:00 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Filetypes (was Re: Xerox)
In-Reply-To: <199812170025.QAA25448@saul5.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Dec 16, 98 04:25:24 pm
Message-ID: <199812170044.QAA12208@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com  Wed Dec 16 18:45:48 1998
From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: OT: Learning new words (was RE: "Single instance" machines)
Message-ID: <981216194548.2f00081a@trailing-edge.com>

>(mean?) humorous streak.  They taught him a very interesting form of
>English - and colourful.  Instead of saying "wow, excellent!", they
>convinced him that the correct thing to say was "most spannerlike!", and
>that a correct form of greeting was "Hello Sailor!".  There were many more
>interesting variations, and his English was eventually, suffice it to say,
>unusual :)

Six words: "My hovercraft is full of eels"

Tim.


From allisonp at world.std.com  Wed Dec 16 19:02:16 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Filetypes (was Re: Xerox)
Message-ID: <199812170102.AA27294@world.std.com>


< If you look through memory, you can find the string BARSBAIT.
< 
< > The Commodore's filetypes are silly. PRG, SEQ and USR are all just seq
< > Only REL is truly different.

generally in OS design there are only a few significant extensions 
(filetypes).  the most common are:

 .EXE  (executable, generally fixed address)

  nearly always a binary loaded at a nominal standard address.
 
 .COM  also executeable but vary in composition

  Can be a binary, often in DEC systems it's a command file (SCRIPT).

 .SYS commonly drivers or system specific and usually loads differently
 (unique address or relocated).

Most others are application specific and the OS treats them as "files"
and it's up to the apps to do the right thing.  Clearly Windows has 
carried that to the opposing extreme such that the extension determines 
the action but that is not at the file level it's at the command 
processor (GUI) level.  Likely the extreme at the other end of the 
spectrum is CP/M-80 where .com is significant to the command processor
and all others are only significant to apps.  It allows for TYPE FOO.COM
where FOO.COM is a binary that would load at 100H and looks like Greek 
on a vt100.

In most OSs at the basic file level (FILE SYSTEM) one type is the same 
as another.  the differentiation often occured at a higher level where 
the user command are interpreted and acted on.  Exceptions abound but, 
they often do not add any value and are system specific.  One that comes 
to mind is NS* DOS and the OS/FileSystem and command processor are so 
tightly bound that they live as only monolithic 2.5K(or so) block of 
code.  It has some economies but ofthen its simplicity is a trade off.

An alternate to this is having file information inside the file as a 
header block that binds the file to it's respective application.  Correct
me someone but I think the Apple MAC OS does this.  It removes the need 
for the extension driving the application.

Allison




From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Wed Dec 16 19:03:42 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981216152949.4387cce2@ricochet.net>

At 04:19 PM 12/15/98 -0500, you wrote:
>there are actually people trying to make money off this hobby.

And this is bad?  In the world of classic Land Rovers (mine turns 40 next
year), I and all the other enthusiasts would be up the proverbial creek
were it not for people out to make a buck -- the parts dealers, mechanics,
magazines, show producers, rally arrangers, etc.  

Where would classic computers be without thrift shops, surplus dealers,
jameco, digi-key(?), heck, even eBay?


--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                       http://www.sinasohn.com/



From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Wed Dec 16 19:03:43 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Value
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981216161400.437fa84c@ricochet.net>

At 06:33 PM 12/15/98 -0800, you wrote:
>> Chaque a' son gout, the lady said as she kissed the cow.  8^)
>
>Can we stick to English on this list?  All these Latin and French quotes
>are all Greek to me!

Sorry...  Chaque = Each, a = has, son = his, gout = taste.  or, each to his
own.  

(I grew up in a 1/2-french-speaking, dual-piano, opera-loving, book-filled
household.  Heck, I didn't even know there was any other kind of music
besides opera and the various forms of classical until my mid-teens.  8^)



--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                       http://www.sinasohn.com/



From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Wed Dec 16 19:03:44 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Computer paint jobs (was Re: SOL feeding frenzy?)
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981216161927.437ffa24@ricochet.net>

At 10:41 PM 12/15/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Y'know, many times I've thought of painting computers, but never to
>"fake" a classic, merely to make a computer I liked look good.  For
>instance, I never liked the dingy (and getting dingier every year)
>off-white color of the TRS-80 Model 16 and most later Tandy

There was some discussion a while back on the [TRS-80 Model 100] m100 list
about that -- some one (a college kid iirc) had taken his apart and used
purple(?) spray paint to add a cool design to the case.  

I always thought that was cool, but I haven't come across a computer I feel
comfortable doing that to.  Yet.


--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                       http://www.sinasohn.com/



From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Wed Dec 16 19:03:45 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Emulex doc archive site gone now . . .
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981216163337.437fa63c@ricochet.net>

At 11:43 AM 12/15/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Bruce had an unusual policy of sending nastygrams to folks who
>(gasp!) put a link to his site without permission.  Anyone who
>did link without permission would find that their network was 

I seem to remember a lawsuit not too long ago wherein Ticketmaster sued
Microsoft (I think) because MS had put a link to TM's web site on their
Sidewalk site.  Seemed silly then, and seems silly now.  

As I understand it, the whole idea of having a web site is to get people to
visit it.  Discouraging links to it would seem to be counter-productive.
But, I guess it is a self-eliminating trait anyway.  8^)


--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                       http://www.sinasohn.com/



From brain at mail.jbrain.com  Tue Dec 15 22:21:00 1998
From: brain at mail.jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: KIM/MOS-Tech
References: <006701bdd61d$185d3840$6753fea9@mainoffice>
Message-ID: 

I know this message is old, but my trailer explains the delay.

Some may know who I am from my COmmodore Trivia and articles, but anyway,
I was told that the intellectual property for all of the Commodore machines is
currently held by Gateway 2000 COmputers, while Tulip COmputer owns the
COmmodore Trademark and logo.

The FACT that GMT owns the dies for the ICs does not mean evidently that they
can reproduce them.  

Can anyone know if this is what I was told.

I do know that Gateway Knows they own the 8-bit technology, since they have
discussed licensing it to some folks, but I don't think the discussions went
far.

Jim



-- 
--
*********** A NOTE FROM JIM BRAIN ********************************************

I would like to apologize for the lateness in replying to your letter or note.
Please do not take offense at the lack of a reply from myself.  The Brain
family has had some very extenuating circumstances throughout the 1998 year.

At the close of 1997, my wife became gravely ill while in her first trimester
of pregnancy with our son.  To support my wife's needs, I switched the
www.jbrain.com web site, ftp.jbrain.com FTP site and mail.jbrain.com
listserver to autopilot and discontinued all online activities, including FAQ
maintenance, responses to email requests, and other demands for my time.  I
also shut down Brain Innovations, Inc., our side business.

My wife's health improved by March of 1998, and in June 19, 1998, Brent 
Harrison Brain came into the world at 7:50 AM.  However, at 5 pounds, 3
ounces, Brent was 5 weeks early and a bit of a preemie.  We were very ecstatic
at the arrival.

A few weeks later, Brent, who had not learned how to nurse very well, weighed
in at 4 pounds and was sent to the neonatal ICU to stabilize his weight and
regain lost fluids.  The cause was his underdeveloped "sucking" instinct,
which is common in preemies.  Brent quickly stabilized and he was sent home
within 3 days.  I am happy to report that Brent has now learned all he needed
to get food and now tips the scale at 15 pounds.

Abaout this time, my commercial Internet Service Provider upgraded some
application libraries on my server (which I share with many others) and broke
the entire www.jbrain.com.  It took from June 1 to July 1 to fix the problem,
which eventually led to the migration of the jbrain.com domain to a new server
with upgraded scripting tools, rendering the old www.jbrain.com unusable.  I
then started working on a replacement.

I was able to get email and mailing lists back in operation before my wife and
I (Brent was at home with my parents) were involved in a broadside collision
while on our first "date" after the birth.  I was left unhurt, but my wife
sustained bruises and broken bones.  Due to the breastfeeding, she was unable
to take adequate medication, and her immobility made taking care of our son a
impossible task.  With some regret, I packed her and my son off with my
parents to drive 10 hours to IL, where my wife's mother would care for both of
them.  I stayed at our house to direct the replacement of our totaled Saturn
automobile

In early August, my wife and son returned to Nebraska, but it took a few
months for my wife injuries to heal to the point where she could care for our
son during the day alone and withut discomfort.

The events of the past 7 months caused us both to "withdraw" from the world in
some respects.  I have let email and web maintenance go without intervention,
while we've both been slow to start back into any projects or start up our
side business again.

However, we are finally feeling better able to tackle the many demands on our
time and the many hobbies we enjoy.  My hope is that we can start out 1999
with a clean slate and forget about our many trials in 1998.  We will, though,
always remember 1998 as the year our son came to us (but I hope that is all we
remember from it).  I am happy to report that as of December 7, 1998, Brent is
doing great, my wife is hoping to make a full recovery (though her back and
feet still hurt occasionally).  I am finally finishing some projects around
the house and finding time and the energy to restart enjoying my hobbies and
my online presence.

As I write this, I am preparing to work my wife through 9 months of
accumulated email from mail.jbrain.com.  If you have sent me more than one
message, please excuse the redundancy of the note when you receive it 
additional times.  For simplicity sake, this is my .signature file for the 
next few weeks.  

We appreciate the responses we have received from folks during our trials.
However, please do not feel it necesary to respond to this message, at least
not for a few weeks.  Doing so now will simply put more email in my inbox, of
which I have plenty at present.

Merry Christmas to everyone, and look for the Brain Christmas Letter on our
web site.

Jim Brain (and family)

--
Jim Brain, Embedded System Designer, Brain Innovations, Inc. (BII)(offline sig)
bii@mail.jbrain.com "Above views DO reflect my employer, since I'm my employer"
Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times!      -Me-
BII Home: http://www.jbrain.com          CBM Info: http://www.jbrain.com/vicug/


From brain at mail.jbrain.com  Tue Dec 15 22:31:37 1998
From: brain at mail.jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Commodore machines that never made it?
References: <001701be27ba$70292ea0$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>
Message-ID: 


Here is a definitive list, which I have compiled.

The unproduced models are at the end.

Jim

Archive-name: cbm-model-list.2.0.txt
Version: 2.0
Last-modified: 1998-04-11

Here is the newest edition of the Canonical List of Commodore Products.  It
contains informations on every piece of Commodore equipment I have heard of 
to date.  Please help me weed out all the inconsistencies and nail down all
the information.

==========================Notes for this Release==============================

PET models were also named with CBM prefixes. i.e PET 4016 = CBM 4016.

Difference in naming early PETs exist.  A PET 2001-8N could also be
referred to as a PET 2001N-8K or PET 2001N-8.  All are the same machine.

Since the decision to boot in lowercase or uppercase mode was based on
type of ROM, any machine can boot in either. 

If you know of a model that is listed above that had differing properties,
please tell me.  Examples are a bigger monitor than what I have listed,
Different closing mechanism on Drive, etc.  

This list comprises all machines that have been put out in some market.
For this reason, the 364, C65, and others are include in the second
list at the end of this document.

The stars indicate that someone has seen this machine in production.
Their friends own one, etc.

The two letters at far right indicate that someone owns this machine.
The names are in Mnemonic, and the expansions are directly above these 
notes.

Before emailing me with updates to an item, please make sure the item number 
is not alrady in the list.  Sometimes I have people tell me that X is a 
disk drive, when X is in the list already as something else.  I can't tell
which one is right, so if you find contradictory info, please acknowledge
that your info does not match mine and what your opinion is regarding which
info is correct.

Any item that has letters after it in the far right column not only exists,
but is owned by someone.  Now, a typo is always possible, but please keep
that in mind when telling me an item was never made, since Commodore 
sometimes never marketed an item in some countries.

I put in any item that I think _might_ have made it to market, so everyone
needs to continually check up on me.  

There list is in two parts: Marketed and Not-Marketed, since some models
were produced but never sold at the time of production (C65 is one of them),
and some models never got past the "pipe-dream" stage.

The newest version of this file can be retrieved from:

http://ftp.jbrain.com/pub/cbm/ref/cbm-model-list.txt
ftp://ftp.jbrain.com/pub/cbm/ref/cbm-model-list.txt
mailto:ftpmail@mail.jbrain.com
   Body:

      open
      ascii
      get /pub/cbm/ref/cbm-model-list.txt
      quit

Interested persons can now subscribe to the CBMMODEL Mailing List at:

mailto:listserv@mail.jbrain.com
   Body:

      subscribe model-dist Firstname Lastname msglen
      review model-dist
      help
      quit

Note: msglen is maximum number of text lines you can receive in an 
email messsage.  a value of 0 means maxlines.  All parameters to the
subscribe command are necessary.  The newest version of the list will be
mailed to you when posted to the newsgroup.

I hope you enjoy the list.  It is the result of over 4 years of continual
updating.

Jim Brain
brain@mail.jbrain.com

======================Questions Still Left to Answer==========================

The PET 2001NT:  Which PET 2001 was it, 08,16,32?

Some needs to explain to me why the 700 model is an LP machine when the rest
of the 700 line are HP machines....

ony Scatt sent me some discussion about the CBM 3000 model, mentioning an 11
key keyboard variant and a 20 key kaeyboard variant.  I have noted below that
some 3000 machines were simply rebaded 2001 machines.  Does that explain the
11/20 discrepency?

I need to go through Andre Fachat's PET Index and synchronize information,
but I need time to do so.   You can peruse it at
http://www.tu-chemnitz.de/~fachat/8bit/petindex/petindex.html

===========Canonical List of Commodore Computer Equipment ====================
							       	  	       	  
---------------------Products Produced In Some Quantity:----------------------

Office Equipment:
* 264CD         Office Desk                                                 RS

Calculator Series:
* 202           electric, 1 digit display with slider indiciator, 
                black case, white keypad, black,white,red keys SN B-63768   WW
* 208           mechanical tape calc with red/black ribbon.                 MI
*               Blue LEDs, basic math, cream color, blue/red butons.        TA
*               Scientific calc, made in England, 44 extra keys             BD
* 401           paper readout, darkgreen/bluegreen                          DV
  770D
* 774D          Red LED, 9 digit, white keys.  Red clear and blue op keys.  BA
  776M
* 796M          red LED, 8 digit, black plastic, 19 keys                    JR
* 797D          Red LED, basic math+memory and percentage, cream/blk keys   BD
* 797M          red LED, 8 digit, cream plastic, 23 keys.		    JB
* 886D          8 dig red LED, white case, keys white, blue and 1 red       GY
* 886D          lt brown w/dark brown base, keys white, blue and red        GY
* 887D          8 dig Red LED, white, black trim, white, red, blue keys.    RI
* 897D          10 digit Red LED, basic math, percent, one memory.          GK
* AL-1000       14 nixie tube readout                                       
* C108          green LED, basic math, black, colored buttons               DV
* CIL 40        LCD, 8 digit, "electronic switching", cream / brown metal   JR
                case, CMOS slimline, 23 keys, 198?
* CQ-SWAT       yellow LCD dual display, 8 digit, world time, silver metal  JR
                case, CMOS slimline, 30 keys.
* GL-976M       green LED, 7 digit, white / black plastic case, 19 lrg keys.JR
  GL-976MR
  GL-979R       blk-cream case,Colored buttons,green LED,basic calc+mem+x^2 
* GL-987R       8 dig grn LED, blk w/silver trim, wht,red,blu keys basic    BZ
* GL-996R       rechargeable, green LED, 8 digit, b&w plastic case, 23 key  JR
                similar to GL models, early LCD.			     
* GL-997R       blk-cream case,colored buttons,green LED,basic calcs+memory TE
* LC5K1         yellow LCD, 8 digit, gold/brown metal case, 24 keys, CMOS   JR
                slimline.
* LC925         yellow LCD, 8 digit, brown/cream plastic case, 25 keys,     JR
* LC5K2                                                                     JC
* MM3M          Cream, Colored buttons, Red LED readout, basic math, 1 mem. JB
* MM3M (Conv)   MM3M with Volume, Area, Metric Conversions                  JP
* MM3R          MM3M without memory.  SN#066387                             PE
* MM6           blk-silver case,basic calcs,red LED,switchable dec point,
                9V battery                                                  TE
* MM6X          MM6 with enter key                                          LA
* N60           14 dig grn LED, silver nums, blue func, lt-blu mem, navigat WZ
* N80           10 dig LED, white nums, blue func, lt-blu mem, navigational FR
* P50 Program.  red LED, 13 digit, brown/gold plastic, 49 keys              JR
* S61 Statist.  green LED, 14 digit, black plastic case, 60 keys.           JR
* SR-1400       "Electronic Slide Rule Calculator" may 5, 1975              JS
* SR-1800       Black, Colored buttons, Green LED readout, Trig.            FB
* SR-36 Scient. red LED, 13 digit, black plastic, 37 keys                   JR
* SR4912 Scient.red LED, 13 digit, black plastic, 49 keys                   JR
* SR-9190R      Black, 10 Red LED, 49 keys, white num keys, SN#26612.       RI
* SR-4120R      SR-4148R                                                    TE
* SR-4148R      blk case,colored buttons(48),10 red LED,
                basic calc+memory+trig+x^y+statistics	                    TE
* SR-100NC      black case,49 colored buttons (most of them twice used),
                scientific calcs (was originally sold as QUELLE Privileg 
                but is from Commodore)                                      TE
* US*3          8 dig + sign, larger light brown case, blk num keys, basic  BZ
* US*8          Desk model, 8 amber LED & overflow,black,keys wht,blu,red   GY
									     
Video Game Series:
* CBM 2000K     Commodore TV Game 2000K,                                    JR
                Basically same as CBM 3000H, but with 4 'bats', two internal
                and 2 mini-jacks in back.  PAL output.  Black plastic case.
* CBM 3000H     Commodore TV Game 3000H,                                    LJ
                Pong-type game. Labels in English and German, Games include
                "target", "tennis", "football", "squash". Amateur or Pro
                settings, 1-4 player.  Basic pot bats, bat #1 is built into
                unit. Runs on 9VDC or batteries.  Outputs to UHF36. 2 ports
                at rear. One 5 pin DIN for light rifle (lightpen), other
                for two more bats. PAL output.
		 		
Trainer Series:
* KIM-1         Computer Trainer:  Has hex keypad and LED readout           CK

PET 2000 Series:Renamed to CBM 20XX, XX = RAM, when Philips forbid PET use.
                Most CBM renamed units powered up in lowercase and had a 
                different keyboard config, while the PET machines booted in
                uppercase. B and N notation alternately put after RAM amount
                in name (PET 2001B-32 = PET 2001-32B)			
                Black (B) or Blue (N) Trim, 9" (9) or 12" (2) screen,
                Built-In Cassette with Chiclet Keys (C),
                Business Style Keyboard with No Graphics on Keys (K), or
                Home Computer with Number Keys and Graphics on Keys (H),
                Green/White screen (G) or Black/White screen (W)     
* PET 2001-4K   4kB, CB                                                     GP
* PET 2001-8K   8kB, CN9                                                    GP
* PET 2001-8C   8kB, CN9W, SN#0620733, No "WAIT 6502,X"                     GL
* PET 2001-8C   8kB, CB9G, SN#0629836, No "WAIT 6502,X"                     GL
  PET 2001-16K  16kB, CN9						    
  PET 2001-32K  32kB, CN9
  PET 2001B-8   8kB, K2
  PET 2001B-16  16kB, K2
  PET 2001B-32  32kB, BK9W, boots in lowercase                              RB
  PET 2001B-32  32kB, K2	    					    
  PET 2001N-8   8kB, H2
* PET 2001N-16  16kB, H9                                                    CH
  PET 2001N-16  16kB, H2
* PET 2001N-32  32kB, H, BASIC 4.0,                                         CS
* PET 2001NT    Teacher's PET.  Same as 2001N, just rebadged
* MDS 6500      Modified 2001N-32 with matching 2040 drive.  500 made.      GP

CBM 3000 Series: 40 Col. Screen, BASIC 2.0-2.3, Same Board as Thin 4000
                 3001 series in Germany were just 2001's with big Keyboard.
* CBM 3008      8kB, 9" Screen.                                             EG
* CBM 3016      16kB 
* CBM 3032      32kB.                                                       SL

CBM 4000 Thin Series: 9" Screen, 40 Column Only, Basic 4.0.
CBM 4000 Fat Series:  12" Screen, Upgradeable to 80 Column, When upgraded
                      to 80 Columns, the systems were 8000's. 
  CBM 4004      4kB, One Piece.
* CBM 4008      8kB, One Piece.                                             SF
* CBM 4016      16kB, One Piece.                                            KK
* CBM 4032      32kB, One Piece                                             JB
* CBM 4064      Educator 64 in 40XX case. green screen (no Fat option)      GP

CBM 8000 Series:12" Screen, 80 Column, BASIC 4.0
                SK means "SoftKey", or "Separated Keyboard"  All -SK and d
                units were enclosed in CBM 700/B series HP cases.
  CBM 8008      8kB, One Piece
  CBM 8016      16kB, One Piece
* CBM 8032      32kB, One Piece                                             GP
* CBM 8032-32 B 8032 in Higher Profile case (HP).  Could install LP drives. GP
* CBM 8032 SK   32kB, Detached Keyboard, SK = SoftKey or Separated Keyboard.EG
  CBM 8096      96kB, 8032 with 64kB ram card
* CBM 8096 SK   96kB, Detached Keyboard.
* CBM 8096d     8096 + 8250LP                                               SL
* CBM 8296      128kB, Detached Keyboard, Brown like 64, LOS-96 OS          TL
* CBM 8296d     8296 + 8250LP                                               SL
* "CASSIE"      Synergistics Inc. rebadged 8032                             AH
  
SuperPet Series:Sold in Germany as MMF (MicroMainFrame) 9000
                Machines sold in Italy had 134kB of RAM.
* CBM SP9000    Dual uP 6502/6809, 96kB RAM, business keyboard.             GP

CBM B Series:   6509 @ 2MHz, 6545/6845 Video, 6526 CIA, 6581 SID, BASIC 4.0+
                (Sometimes called BASIC 4.5)
                Commodore differentiated between the HP (High Profile) and 
                LP (Low Profile) series by naming all HP machine CBM.
                (B128-80HP was CBM128-80).  Also, any machine with optional
                8088 CPU card had 'X' after B or CBM (BX128-80).
* CBM B128-80HP 128kB, Detached Keyboard, Cream.                            GP
* CBM B128-80LP 128kB, One-Piece, Cream, New Keyboard.                      GP
* CBM B256-80HP 256kB, Detached Keyboard, Cream.
* CBM B256-80LP 256kB, One-Piece, Cream.                                    GP
* CBM B128-40   6567, 6581, 6509, 6551, 128kB.  In B128-80LP case.
  CBM B256-40   6567, 6581, 6509, 6551, 256kB.  In B128-80LP case.
* CBM B500      128kB.                                                      KO
* CBM B500      256kB. board same as B128-80.                               GP

CBM 200 Series				     		 
* CBM 200       CBM 8032 SK                                                 VM
  CBM 210       ???
* CBM 220       CBM 8096 SK

CBM 500 Series: 6509, 6567, 6581, 6551. B series LP case, BASIC 4.0+
                Sometimes called PET II series.  
* CBM 500       256kB. (is this the 500, or should it 515?)                 EC
* CBM 505       64kB.
* CBM 510       128kB.

CBM 600 Series: Same as B series LP
* CBM 610       B128-80 LP                                                  CS
* CBM 620       B256-80 LP                                                  CS
                   
CBM 700 Series: Same as B series HP.  Also named PET 700 Series
* CBM 700       B128-80 LP (Note this unit is out of place here)
* CBM 710       B128-80 HP                                                  SL
* CBM 720       B256-80 HP                                                  GP
* CBM 730       720 with 8088 coprocessor card
  CBM 740       ????
  CBM 750       ????
  CBM 760       ???? 3 processors and 1 MB RAM.

VIC-20 Series:  22*23 screen, 5kB RAM,  Basic 2.0, one piece. 
                Could be hooked to TV with RF modulator.
                Cream (C), or Off-White (O) case.
                Flat top keys with Square type font on keycaps (S),
                Indent top keys with somewhat square font and thin letters
                for RESTORE/CLR/HOME/INST... (I), or
                Indent top keys with rounded type font (R).
                2 Prong PS adaptor (2) or DIN PS adaptor (D).
                Black/Silver Decals (B), or Brown/Color Decals (H).
                5 pin video connector (5), or 8 pin video connector (8)
                "2" implies VIC-20 motherboard.  "D" implies VIC-20CR 
                motherboard.  					   
* VIC-20 1      SOB2                                                        GP
* VIC-20 2      ICHD                                                        GP
* VIC-20 3      ROB2                                                        GP
* VIC-20 4      RCHD8                                                       JB
* VIC-20 5      SCHD                                                        JB
* VIC-20 6      VIC with 2001K Keyboard.                                    MS
* VIC-20 7      RCBD5                                                       SD
* VIC-20 8      CS2B5                                                       RN
* VIC-20 9      CI2B5                                                       RN
* VIC-20 10     CIH25                                                       BZ
* VIC-20 11     ROBD5                                                       BZ
* VIC-10        Japanese VIC with 2001K keyboard.			     
* VIC-1001      VIC-10? Japanese VIC with both chars printed on keys.       TG
* VC-20 1       SCHD5 (German) (source says has beige instead of grey? case)
* VC-20 2       RCHD5 (German)                                              MH
* VC-20 3       R5OB2 (German) Color VIC logo...                            CE
* VC-20 4       HD (cheap label) (German)                                   RC
* VC-20 5       HD (better aluminum label) (German)                         RC
* VC-20 6       2 (UK)                                                      RC
		    							     

CBM-64 Series:  40*25 screen, 64kB RAM, BASIC 2.0, one piece, TV ouput.
                Called VIC-64 in Sweden.
                Off-white VIC case (O), Brown Breadbox case (B),
                Cream Breadbox case (C)
                Flat top keys with Square type font on keycaps (S),
                Indent top keys with somewhat square font and thin letters
                for RESTORE/CLR/HOME/INST... (I), or
                Indent top keys with rounded type font (R).
                Black/Silver Decals (L), or Brown/Color Decals (H).
                5 pin video connector (5), or 8 pin video connector (8)
                
* CBM 64 1      SO
* CBM 64 2      SBH8                                                        JB
* CBM 64 3      RBH8                                                        JB
* CBM 64 4      RCH8 (Referred to as a C64G)                                ME
* CBM 64 5      RB5L                                                        JB
* CBM 64 (JP)   Chiclet Keyboard sold in Japan. (Might be MAX Machine)
* Jubilee 64    64 in Golden case, announcing 1,000,000 units (160 units)
* SX-64         Portable 64 With 5" Color Screen, One 1541 Built-in.        GP
* CBM-64C       Cream Sloping Case, Cream Keys, GFX on front of keys        JB
* CBM-64C       Cream Sloping Case, Cream Keys, GFX on top of keys.         JB
  CBM-64II      C64C
* Educator 64-1 64 Rev1 Kernal without monitor in 64 case.                  RS
* Educator 64-2 64 Rev1 Kernal, green monitor, PET case.                    GP
* PET64         CBM 4064 (Educator 64-2)                                    GP
* (Color) MAX   64 with 16kB, no Keyboard, just Exp. Port and Video Out.    EC
  Unimax        MAX Machine.
* Ultimax       MAX Machine.                                                FH
  CBM VC-10     C-64 with stripped down Basic 2.0, 2.5kB RAM, Ultimax
* CBM C64G      RCH8                                                        AA
* CBM C64GS     Game Console, GS = Game System. 64 with no keyboard.        MM

C-128 Series:   128kB, Cream Case, 40*25 and 80*25 screen, 64 and CP/M em.
* C-128         One-Piece Unit, 16kB VDC.                                   GP
* C-128         One-Piece Unit, 64kB VDC.
* C-128D        Two-Piece,16K VDC, Used C128 board, internal 1571. Fan
* C-128DCR      C128D with 64K VDC, Metal Case, Cost Reduced, No Fan.       DL

CBM 264 Series: Charcoal Grey Case, 40*25 screen
* Plus/4        New Keyboard and Case design, 64kB RAM, 6551 UART           GP
* C-16          64 Case and Keyboard Style, 16kB RAM                        JB
* C-116         C-16 with Chiclet keys and smaller case                     SL

Amiga Series:   680X0 processor, Off White Case
* A500          One piece, 68000, Off-White, 880K 3.5" Floppy               FF
* A500+         A500 + 2MB Agnus, 1MB Chip Ram Expandable to 2 MB
* A600          One piece, 68000, White,ECS Chips,PCMCIA Slot,880K Floppy.
* A600HD        A600 with 40 MB HD.
* A1000         Detached Keyboard, 68000, Cream, 256kB, 880K Floppy.
* A1000-1       Detached older style keyboard, 68000, no daughterboard      CS
* A1000-2       Has both daughter and motherboards                          YC
* A1200         White, 68EC020, PCMCIA slot,AGA graphics, one piece.        AC
  A1200HD/40    A1200 with 40 MB HD.
* A1500         UK released A2000 with two drives
* A2000A        detached keyboard, slots, 68000, .5 MB on board, .5 MB on
                card in processor slot, German design
* A2000B        US design, 1 MB on motherboard, CPU slot free               MN
* A2000HD       A2000 with installed 50 MB SCSI hard disk.                  GR
* A2500/20      A2000 with A2620(68020,68881,68851 @14.3MHz) processor card.CS
* A2500/30      A2000 with A2630(68030,68882 @25 MHz) processor card.       CS
* A2500UX       A2500 with UNIX and TapeDrive
* A3000/16      ECS graphics, 68030 and 68881 @ 16 MHz, SCSI hard drive
* A3000/25      ECS graphics, 68030 and 68882 @ 25 MHz, SCSI hard drive     BZ
* A3000T        Tower Case with more slots.
* A3000T/40     Tower Case with more slots and 68040
* A3000UXA      A3000 with ATT Unix V.4, 5MB RAM, 100MB HD.
* A3000UXB      A3000 with ATT Unix V.4, 10MB RAM, 200MB HD.
* A4000/030     AGA graphics, 68EC030, IDE HD, 1.76 MB Floppy, no MMU.
* A4000/040     White, AGA graphics, 68040, IDE HD, 1.76 MB Floppy.         FF
* A4000T        Tower Case with More Slots.
* Amiga CD32    Based on A1200, double speed CD-ROM, no keyboard.
* CDTV          Black case, based on A500+ with CD-ROM, no keyboard, Remote.FF

PC Series:
* A1060         DOS/PC SideCar that connects to an A1000.
* A2088         8088 BridgeBoard for A2000 and higher (4.77 MHz).
* A2088D        A2088 @ 9.54 MHz.
* A2286/8       80286 @ 8MHz BridgeCard.
* A2386/16      80386 @ 16MHz BridgeCard.
* A2386/20      80386 @ 20MHz BridgeCard.
* A2386/25      80386 @ 25MHz BridgeCard.
  Hyperion      PC Clone.  Looked like Dynalogic Hyperion
* PC-1          8088 @ 4.77 MHz, Non-expandable.
  PC-IV         ???
* PC-5          8088 @ 4.77 MHz, 256kB RAM, 360kB 5.25" FD, monochrome.     SL
* PC-10         8088 @ 4.77 MHz, 256kB RAM, 2 Floppies, Large Case, German.
* PC-10 HD      PC-10 with 640kB RAM, 360kB 5.25" FD, 30 MB HD.
* PC-20         PC-10 with 1 Floppy/1 10MB HD.                              RS
* PC-30         80186 (US only)                                             RS
* PC-40         80286 @ 10 MHz, Large Case                                  RS
* PC-50         80386SX @ 25MHz.                                            RS
* PC-60         80386DX @ 16 MHz German.
* PC-70         Pentium, US only model.
* PC-10 II      PC-10 with "Combined Board", 640 KB RAM.                    BZ
* PC 20-II      PC-10 II with 1 floppy, 10 MB HD, later 20 MB.
* PC 10-III-1   PC-10, large case, CGA + Hercules.
* PC 10-III-2   PC-10, small case, turbo mode 9.54 MHz, CGA + Hercules.
* PC 20-III     PC-10 III with 1 floppy, 20 MB HD.
* PC 30-III     cheaper variant of PC 40-III (EGA, smaller HD, etc.).
* PC 35-III     PC-30 III with VGA
* PC 40-III-1   AT with 80286, 12 MHz, HD floppy, 20 MB HD, VGA&iO on cards 
* PC 40-III-2   PC 40-III, Colt style "all-in-one" brd, called Sel. Ed. 286 RM
* PC 40-III-3   PC 40-III in tower case.	    			 
* PC 45-III     a bit bigger HD
* PC 60-III     AT 80386 @ 25 MHz, 0-200 MB HD, 5.25" and 3.5" FD, Tower.
* PC Colt       Denoted a line of rebadged CBM PC units.                    BZ
  SL 286 AT     80286 @ 16 MHz, VGA, 2MB RAM, 40 MB HD, 3.5" FD, Slimline.
  SL 286 AT     as above but with extra 5.25" FD, Slimline.
  SL 386 SX     80386SX @ 16 MHz, VGA, 2MB RAM, 40 MB HD, 3.5" FD.
  SL 386-SX25   80386SX @ 25 MHz, SVGA 2MB RAM, 80 MB HD.
  DT 386-25     80386DX @ 25 MHz, VGA, 1MB RAM, 40 MB HD, Desktop.
  DT 386-33 C   80386DX @ 33 MHz, SVGA, 4MB RAM, 80/100 MB HD.
  DT 486-33 C   80486DX @ 33 MHz, SVGA, 4MB RAM, 80-120 MB HD.
  DT 486SX-25   80486SX @ 25 MHz, SVGA, 4MB RAM, 80 MB HD.
* DT 486SX-25   80486SX @ 25 MHz, SVGA, 4MB RAM, 120 MB HD.                 DA
  DT 486-25 C   80486DX @ 25 MHz, SVGA?, 4MB RAM, 100 MB HD.
  T 486-25 C    DT 486-25 C in Tower Case.
  T 486-50 C    80486DX @ 50 MHz, SVGA, 4MB RAM, 120 MB HD.
* C 286 LT 12   80286 @ 12.5 MHz, 1MB RAM, 20 MB HD, 3.5" FD Notebook.
* C 386SX-LT    80386SX @ 16 MHz, VGA (8 gray scale), 1 MB RAM, 20MB HD     SA
* C 386SX-LT 20 80386SX @ 20 MHz, VGA, 2MB RAM, 40 MB HD Notebook.	     
* C 386SX-LT 20 80386SX @ 20 MHz, VGA, 2MB RAM, 60 MB HD Notebook.
* C 486SX-CLT   80486SX color notebook.
* CL450e        80486DX @ 50 MHz, 32 bit EISA bus, SN# E4500007             JO
* 4S3MPC        80486SX @ 33 MHz, VESA SVGA, 4MB RAM, 170 MB HD, *2 CD/Snd   

Cassette Series:Took regular cassettes, non standard format data.
                Note: 1530 is same as C2N.  Therefore, variations were not
                expanded.
* CBM C2N-1     Black, 8.00"Lx5.25"Wx2.50"H, 5 button, No Tape Ctr.         GP
* CBM C2N-2     Cream C2N-1, Tinted Window, Tape Counter.                   JB
* CBM C2N-3     C2N-2 with bolder logo.                                     GP
* CBM C2N-4     Cream, 6.00"Lx7.75"Wx2.00"H, 6 button,Clear Win., Tape Ctr. GP
* CBM C2N-5     C2N-4 with no counter label, orange under cassette.         GP
* CBM C2N-6     C2N-4 with no save label, bolder logo.                      GP
* CBM C2N-7     C2N-4 with tinted win., bolder logo.                        BG
* CBM 1531      Charcoal Grey C2N-6, Commodore 16/+4 Cassette Drive         TH
* CBM Load-It   LED Readout, Adjustment Screw

Disk Drive Series:
* Amiga 1010    Single 3.5" 880K, offered for Amiga 1000, AmigaSerial.      MJ
* Amiga 1011    Single 3.5" 880K, offered for Amiga 500 & 2000, AmigaSerial.JM
* Amiga 1020    Single 5.25", 440K Amiga, 360K MS-DOS, In 1571 Case.        CS
* Amiga 2010    Single 3.5", 880K Internal for A2000/2500.
* Amiga 2020    Single 5.25", 440K Internal for A2000.
* Amiga 3010    Single 3.5", 1.76M Dual Speed, internal.
* CBM 1541      *All types, see VIC 1541*
* CBM 1541C     Single 5.25" 170K, updated 1541, Brown, Turn-Down,Serial.
* CBM 1541C     Single 5.25" 170K, updated 1541, Cream, Turn-Down,Serial.   GP
* CBM 1541C     Single 5.25" 170K, updated 1541, Cream, Push-Down,Serial.   GP
* CBM 1541 II   Single 5.25" 170K, Cream, Sep. PS, Direct Drive, Serial.    GP
* CBM 1541 II   Single 5.25" 170K, Cream, Sep. PS, Belt Drive, Serial.      JB
* CBM 1542      Single 5.25" 170K, Charcoal Grey, Serial.
* CBM 1551      1541, Push-Down Closure, Chacoal Grey, TED Parellel.        RJ
* CBM 1551      1541, Turn-Down Closure, Chacoal Grey, TED Parellel.        PB
* CBM 1570      Single 5.25" SS Version of 1571, Cream in 1541 case.        GP
* CBM 1571      Single 5.25" 340K(128),170K(64),CPM,Cream,Alps Mech,Serial. GP
* CBM 1571      Single 5.25" 340K(128),170K(64),CPM,Cream,NewT Mech,Serial. GP
* CBM 1571CR    Internal 1571 used in C128D
* CBM 1572      Dual 1571, Cream color, 5000 made, side-by-side device 0&1 
* CBM 1581      Single 3.5" 800K, Cream, Serial.                            JB
* CBM 2020      dual ???" external floppy drives                            LI
* CBM 2031      Single 5.25" 170K, Off-White, IEEE-488.                     GP
* CBM 2031-SL   Single 5.25" 170K, Off-White, IEEE-488. (SL = Slim Line)
* CBM 2031 LP   Single 5.25" 170K, DOS2.6, Off-White, 1541 Case,IEEE-488.   GP
* CBM 2031 LP   Single 5.25" 170K, DOS2.6, Tan, 1541 Case,IEEE-488.         GP
* CBM 2040      Dual 5.25" 170K, DOS1.0, Off-White, No Rel Files, IEEE-488. GP
* CBM 2040      Dual 5.25" 170K, DOS1.2, Off-White, No Rel Files, IEEE-488. GP
* CBM 2081      Single 5.25" ?????                               
* CBM 3040      2040.                                                       GP
* CBM 4031 HP   2031 HP. (Has 4040 Mechanism)                               SL
* CBM 4031 LP   2031 LP.
* CBM 4040      Dual 5.25" 170K, DOS2.0, Off-White, IEEE-488.
* CBM 4040      Dual 5.25" 170K, DOS2.1, Off-White, IEEE-488.               GP
* CBM 8050      Dual 5.25" 512K, DOS2.1, Off-White, IEEE-488.
* CBM 8050      Dual 5.25" 512K, DOS2.5, Off-White, IEEE-488.               GP
* CBM 8050      Dual 5.25" 512K, DOS2.7, Off-White, IEEE-488.               JB
  CBM 8060      Single 8", 750K, Off-White, IEEE-488.
* CBM 8061      Dual 8", 1.6M, Off-White, IEEE-488.(IBM 3740 and CBM format)GP
* CBM 8062      Dual 8", 3.2M, Off-White, IEEE-488.(IBM 3740 and CBM format)
* CBM 8250      Dual 5.25" 1MB, DOS2.7, Off-White, IEEE-488.                GP
* CBM 8250 LP   Dual 5.25" 1MB, DOS2.7, Off-White, Half Height, IEEE-488.   GP
* CBM 8280      Dual 8" 1MB, DOS3.0, Off-White, Read IBM disks, Slimline.   WA
* CBM D9060     5 MB Hard Drive, DOS3.0, Off-White, IEEE-488.               GP
* CBM D9090     7.5 MB Hard Drive, DOS3.0, Off-White, IEEE-488.             GP
* CD 1411       Black version of Amiga 1011. CDTV dedicated.
* PC 910        Single 3.5" 360K/720K, Internal for PC10/20-I-II-III.
* PC 915        Newer 910.
* PC 920        Single 5.25" 360K/1.2M, Internal for PC10/20-I-II-III.
* SFD 1001      Single 5.25" 1MB, In 1541 Case, DOS2.7, Brown, IEEE-488.    JB
* SFS 481       CBM 1551. (This was its first number, then they renamed it)
* VIC 1540      Single 5.25" 170K, Off-White, Xfer spd > 1541, Serial.
* VIC 1541      Single 5.25" 170K, Push-Down Closure, Off-White, Serial     JB
* VIC 1541      Single 5.25" 170K, Push-Down Closure, Brown, Serial.        JB
* VIC 1541      Single 5.25" 170K, Turn-Down Closure, Brown, Serial.        JB

Printer Series:
* CBM 530       Small Receipt Printer, 70mm paper roll, black/red ribbon    BC
* CBM 1526      80 Col. 8.5" Wide 8*8 Matrix No GFX, Brown, Serial 60cps.   JB
  CBM 2021      80 Col. Matrix Electrosatic (Thermal) Printer, GFX.
* CBM 2022      80 Col. 8.5" Wide 7*6 Matrix No GFX, Off-White, IEEE-488.   GP
* CBM 2023      Friction-Only 2022.
* CBM 3022      2022 for PET 3000, IEEE-488.                                SL
* CBM 3023      2023 for PET 3000, IEEE-488.                                TL
* CBM 4022      80 Col, 10" Wide 8*6 Matrix No GFX, Epson MX-80, IEEE-488.  SL
* CBM 4022p     Bidirectional 4022, Epson MX-70?, IEEE-488.
* CBM 4023      80 Col. 10" Wide 8*8 Matrix No GFX, NLQ, Brown, IEEE-488.   GP
* CBM 6400      C.Itoh Starwriter F10-40, Centronics or IEEE-488            SL
  CBM 8022      ?
* CBM 8023      80 Col. 14" Wide 8*8 Matrix No GFX, Off White, IEEE-488     JB
  CBM 8023P     136 Col. 15" Wide 8*6 Matrix, GFX, IEEE-488.
* CBM 8024      132 Col. Mannesman Tally, 7*7, Upgrade to 7*9, Cream, IEEE. GV
* CBM 8024/A    132 Col. Mannesman Tally, 9*7, 160 cps bidirectional.       SL
* CBM 8024L     8024 Multi-Pass NLQ Printer, IEEE-488.
* CBM 8026      OLYMPIA ESW-103, TypeWriter Printer, IEEE-488.
* CBM 8026b     8026 Extended.?
* CBM 8027      8026 without Keys, IEEE-488.
* CBM 8028      132 Col. 15" Daisy-Wheel, (Robotron), Cent./IEEE-488         SL
* CBM 8075      Plotter, available in 1 and 8 pen variety, IEEE-488
* CBM 8229      8028 with 16kB print buffer.
* CBM 8300P     Diablo 630, Daisy Wheel, Cream, IEEE-488.
  CBM-P1        Daisy Wheel Printer.
* DPS 1101      132 Col. 13", Daisy-Wheel, Friction Feed, Juki 6100, Serial.
* DPS 1120      116-175 Col. 14.5" wide Daisy, Black, Serial.  (Olympia)    RH
* IP3300        Ink Jet Printer                                             IM
* LPS 2000      Laser Printer, Centronics (Possibly German Only).
* MCS 801       80 Col. 8.5" Wide 8*8 Matrix GFX Color, Serial.             FB
* MPC 801       Juki Color Printer                                          HR
* MPP 1361      8023P.                                                      GP
* MPS 801       80 Col. 8.5" Wide 7*6 Matrix GFX, Brown, Serial.            GP
* MPS 802       1526.                                                       JB
* MPS 803       80 Col. 8.5" Wide 7*6 Matrix GFX, Brown, Serial.            GP
* MPS 803       80 Col. 8.5" Wide 7*6 Matrix GFX, Charcoal Grey, Serial.    GP
* MPS 810       Okimate 10 ?                                                CA
* MPS 820       Okimate 20 ?                                                CA
* MPS 1000      Epson HomeWriter, US Version. 9 pin, 100cps draft.          BZ
* MPS 1000      Epson HomeWriter, Intl. version with switchable charsets.   GD
* MPS 1000      Seikosha 1000.
* MPS 1200      Citizen 120D. 9 pin 120 cps draft, CBM Serial interface.    BW
* MPS 1200P     MPS 1200 with Parallel Interface.                           DW
* MPS 1224C     Mannesmann Tally, 24 pin Color Printer, MT Printer, Ser/Par
* MPS 1230      Citizen, 9 pin, Centronics.                                 EB
* MPS 1250      Citizen, Serial/Centronics.                                 BZ
* MPS 1270      Ink Jet Printer, uses Kodak Diconix Cartridges, Centronics. DL
* MPS 1500      ???
* MPS 1550      9 pin printer, Centronics.
* MPS 1550C     9 pin 4 color Printer, OLIVETTI DM105, Centronics.          MH
* MPS 2000      NEC P6
* MPS 2000C     NEC P6 Color
* MPS 2010      NEC P7
* MPS 2010C     NEC P7 Color
* VIC 1510      ???? (predecessor of VIC 1515)
* VIC 1515      80 Col. 7.0" Wide 6*7 Matrix GFX, Off White, Serial.        GY
* VIC 1520      80 Col. 4.0" Wide Plotter, GFX, Off White, 4 color. Serial
* VIC 1520      80 Col. 4.0" Wide Plotter, GFX, Brown, Paper Cover,Ser.     GY 
* VIC 1520      80 Col. 4.0" Wide Plotter, GFX, Brown, No Paper Cover,Ser.  PZ
* VIC 1525      80 Col. 8.5" Wide 7*6 Matrix GFX, Off-White, Serial.        JB
  VIC 1525e     same as 1525, but ROMs implement slower bus for 64.

Monitor Series:
* CBM 1070      Dig&Analog RGBI.                                            BR
* CBM 1080      13" Comp. Sep, Dig&Analog RGB                               YC
* CBM 1081      1987 German Amiga Monitor                                   MK
* CBM 1083S-P1  13" Comp, Sep, D&A RGBI, Stereo, CVBS/RGB/LCA 1991 French   PM
* CBM 1084      1080 with squarer case .42mm dot pitch
* CBM 1084-D    12" Comp. Sep, Dig&Analog RGBI, ???? case, Mono.            FM
* CBM 1084S-P   13" Comp, Sep, Dig&Analog RGBI, 1902 case, Stereo.          FF
* CBM 1084S-P1  13" Comp, Sep, Dig&Analog RGBI, 1084 case,stero hphone jack MJ
* CBM 1084S-D   13" Comp, Sep, Dig&Analog RGBI, 1080 case, Stereo.          JB
* CBM 1084S-D1  13" Comp, Sep, Dig&Analog RGBI, 1084 case, Stereo.          DE
* CBM 1085S     14" .52mm dot pitch 1084
* CBM 1402      12" Hercules Monitor                                        SM
* CBM 1403      13" VGA.
* CBM 1404      14" Amber Monochrome.
* CBM 1407      14" VGA Monochrome, 64 grey tones.
* CBM 1450      Monochrome BISYNC monitor.
  CBM 1601      12" Monochrome monitor.
  CBM 1701      13" Comp, Sep, 5 pin DIN adaptor, JVC elec. Hitachi tube.   JB
* CBM 1702      13" Comp, Sep, Came with 8 pin DIN adaptor. Magnavox.       JB
  CBM 1703      Repackaged 1702 for 264 series,  Was Charcoal Grey.
* CBM 1801      14" Comp, Sep, PAL.                                         JT
* CBM 1802      13" Comp, Sep, Mono, Grey, one big knob in front.           PS
* CBM 1802      13" Comp, Sep, Mono, Grey, Two small knobs in front.
* CBM 1802      13" Comp, Sep, Mono, Cream, Tilted screen.
* CBM 1802C     13" Comp, Sep, Mono, Cream, Straight screen.
* CBM 1900      12" Green Mono Monitor.
  CBM 1901      European 128 Monitor (Thomson).                             AC
* CBM 1902      13" Comp, Sep, Digital RGBI, has a 9 pin RGB plug.          MP
* CBM 1902A     13" Comp, Sep, Digital RGBI, Looks like 1084, DIN RGB plug. DL
* CBM 1903      13" EGA 
* CBM 1904      13" EGA
* CBM 1930      14" VGA .31mm dot pitch.
* CBM 1934      14" VGA .39mm dot pitch.
* CBM 1935-II   14" SVGA, .28mm dot pitch, MPR-II low radiation.
* CBM 1936      14" SVGA .28mm dot pitch.
* CBM 1944      13" EGA Low Radiation
* CBM 1940      Amiga Multiscan Monitor
* CBM 1942      Amiga Multiscan Monitor                                     FF
* CBM 1950      13" MultiScan
* CBM 1960      13" MultiScan
* CBM 2002-23   13" Comp, Sep, Dig&Analog RGBI.                             CS
* CBM 2002-89   13" Comp, Sep, Dig&Analog RGBI.
  CBM 2020                        
* CBM 2024      15" Grey scale 1024*1024(PAL), 1024*800(NTSC).              IN
* CBM 2080      13" CBM 1080 with High Persistence Phosphors.               TM
* CBM CM141     13" Comp, Sep., Grey.                                       WS
* CBM CM8833                                                                JA
* CBM DM-10     12" CGA monochrone text monitor for PC-10.
* Viking        Moniterm: 19" Grey Scale 1024*1024, Made by Moniterm/CBM.
                2024 is similar, but has electronics in monitor.

Modem Series:   Direct Connect (8010 is aucoustic).
* Amiga RS1200  0-1200 bps, Hayes Compatible
* Btx-Modul I   Cartridge IC to display CEPT GFX (BTX = German CIS)
* Btx-Modul II  Upgraded version of Btx-Modul I.
* CBM 1650      0-300 bps, Pulse Dial, known as 'Automodem'                 BZ
* CBM 1660      0-300 bps, Pulse Dial, Tone Dial with 64, Brown/White       DV
* CBM 1660      0-300 bps, Pulse Dial, Tone Dial with 64, Cream/Black       DV
* CBM 1670      0-1200 bps, Hayes Compatible, ATS0=0 turns off Auto-Answer  BZ
* CBM 1670CR    1670 with DIP switches to turn off default auto-answer      JB
* CBM 1680      1670 with true RS-232 for Amiga.                            BZ
* CBM 6499      300/300 and 1200/75 bps modem for 64. Italian Compunet?     FF
* CBM 8010      0-300 bps, US & Euro Versions, IEEE-488                     SL
* Compunet      plugged into Exp. Port, Cream case.
* VIC 1600      0-300 bps, No dial.                                         JB
* VM 2400       0-2400 bps, CCITT V.24, Model 701324, BTX, MNP 5, V.42bis   RL

Mouse Series:
* CBM 1350      Emulates Joystick only                                      BZ
* CBM 1351-1    Emulates Joy and prop mouse. sliding ball release           IC
* CBM 1351-2    Emulates Joy and prop mouse. rotating ball release          IC
* CBM 1352      Amiga 2 button Mouse, will work with PC-III models.         MN
* CBM 1360      Serial Mouse for PC series.
* 313254-01     2 button Amiga mouse.                                       BZ
* 313255-01     3 button Amiga mouse.                                       CS
* CD-1252       Amiga 2 button mouse, black, infrared, CDTV dedicated
* CD-1253       CDTV mouse, 8.5 foot cable. black                           BB

RAM Expanders:    
* 8032099       64kB RAM for 8032.                                          RS
* A501          512kB for Amiga 500                                         AC
* A501+         1MB for Amiga 500+
* A590          Ram Expansion 2MB, SCSI and XT bus for A500
* A601          1MB for Amiga 600
* A1050         256kB for Amiga 1000 (Under Front Cover)                    CS
* A2058-2       2MB for Amiga 2000, expandable to 8                         BK
* CBM 1700      128kB.                                                      WS
* CBM 1750      512kB                                                       AC
* CBM 1764      256kB.                                                      JB
* CD 1401       Personal RAM Card for CDTV (64kB)
* CD 1405       Personal RAM card for CDTV (256kB)
* VIC 1110      8kB for VIC-20                                              WS
* VIC 1111      16kB for VIC-20                                             JB
* VIC 1210      3kB for VIC-20                                              BZ

Joysticks:
* CBM 1399      MicroSwitches Joystick w/ Auto-Fire.
*               Paddles, Dark Grey, Light Grey Knobs.                       GP
* T-1341        Plus 4 Joystick
* T-1342        Plus 4 Joystick                                             BZ
                VIC Joystick, Atari style body and stick.
* VIC 1311      VIC Joystick, Rectangular body, triangular stick            JB
* VIC 1312      VIC Paddles                                                 MP

CPU Upgrade Series:
* Amiga 2620    68020 and 68881 @ 14.3 MHz for A2000                        CS
* Amiga 2630    68030 and 68882 @ 25 MHz for A2000  with 4MB RAM            CS
* Amiga 3640    68040 CPU Card for A3000T.                                  FF 

Networking Series:
* Amiga 560     ARCNET for Amiga 500.                                       MN
* Amiga 2060    ARCNET for A2000 for star topology                          MN
* Amiga 2060    ARCNET for A2000 for bus topology
* Amiga 2065    Ethernet for A2000
* Amiga 2232    7 Port Multi-Serial Card.
* MBS 100       Mehr-Benutzer-System (Multi-User-System) Mother Unit with   SL
                one D-25 and 1 IEEE-488.  Basically a simply-designed
                peripheral-sharing system
* MBS 150       Daughter Unit, had two D-25's and one IEEE-488        
* MBS 150       MBS 150 with extra plug to connect 8032SK                   SL
* MBS-CP        MBS System for Commodore 64.

Cartridge Series:
* C64108        Simons' BASIC                                               JB
*               International Soccer
*               Magic Desk I                                                MN
*               Magic Voice Speech Module
*               Music Machine
*               Number Nabber                                               JB
*               Shape Grabber                                               JB
* C64403        Music Composer                                              JB
* C64601        Jupiter Lander                                              MN
* C64602        Kickman         * = Bally developed under CBM license       JB
* C64603        Sea Wolf        *                                           JB
* C64604        Speed Math/Bingo Math 
* C64605        Radar Rat Race	
* C64606        Clowns          *                                           MN
* C64609        Visible Solar System
* C64610        Tooth Invaders
  C64612        Blueprint       *
* C64613        Lazarian        *
* C64614        Omega Race      *
  C64615        Wizard of Wor
* C64616        Le Mans
* C64617        Pinball Spectacular
* C64618        Gorf
* C64621        Avenger                                                     JB
* C64622        Super Smash                                                 JB
* C64623        Star Post
* C64624        Frogmaster
* C64631        Star Ranger
*               64 Super Expander                                           JB
*               C16 Tutor                                                   JB
                Jelly Monsters VIC Cart, Pac Man Clone.  GFX too close to   AB
                Pac Man.  Taken off Market.  GFX changed.  Re-released as
                Cosmic Crunchers.
* VIC 1211A     VIC SuperExpander with 3kB RAM Expansion. (for VIC-20) (gm) JB
* VIC 1212      VIC Programmer's Aid. (for VIC-20)                          BZ
* VIC 1213      VIC Machine Language Monitor. (for VIC-20)                  HS
* VIC 1901      Avenger (VIC Avenger) (bp)                                  GY
* VIC 1901      Avenger (VIC Avenger) (gm)                                  JB
* VIC 1902      Star Battle
* VIC 1904      Slot (Super Slot), Japan, embossed aluminum label           GY
* VIC 1905      Jelly Monsters, Handic SW, Sweden, silver foil label
* VIC 1906      Alien (Super Alien) (gm)                                    JB
* VIC 1907      Jupiter Lander   (Super Lander?) (gm)                       JB
* VIC 1908      Poker (Draw Poker)                                          GY
* VIC 1909      Road Race (Midnight Drive)                                  GY
* VIC 1909      Rat Race? Handic SW, Sweden, silver foil label              AB
* VIC 1910      Radar Rat Race                                              GY
* VIC 1911      The Sky Is Falling                                          GY
* VIC 1912      Mole Attack (gm)                                            JB
* VIC 1912      Mole Attack (bp)                                            JB
* VIC 1913      Raid On Fort Knox, Hong Kong (gp)                           GY
* VIC 1913      Raid On Fort Knox, Hong Kong (bp)                           JB
* VIC 1914      Adventure Land                                              GY
* VIC 1914      Adventure Land (bp)                                         JB
* VIC 1915      Pirate's Cove                                               GY
* VIC 1916      Mission Impossible                                          GY
* VIC 1917      The Count                                                   GY
* VIC 1917      The Count (bp)                                              JB
* VIC 1918      Voodoo Castle                                               GY
* VIC 1919      Sargon II Chess (gm)                                        JB
* VIC 1920      Pinball (Pinball Spectacular?), Hong Kong, grey plastic lab GY
* VIC 1921      Super Smash                                                 GY
* VIC 1921      Super Smash (bp)                                            JB
* VIC 1922      Cosmic Cruncher (bp)                                        JB
* VIC 1923      Gorf (bp)                                                   JB
* VIC 1924      Omega Race (bp)                                             JB
* VIC 1924      Omega Race (gm)                                             JB
* VIC 1925      Money Wars                                                  GY
* VIC 1926      Menagerie
* VIC 1927      Cosmic Jailhouse (Cosmic Jailbreak), Hong Kong, grey label
* VIC 1928      Home Babysitter
* VIC 1929      Personal Finance
* VIC 1930      Visible Solar System                                        GY
* VIC 1931      Clowns                                                      GY
* VIC 1932      Garden Wars                                                 GY
* VIC 1933      Speed Math/Bingo Math                                       GY
* VIC 1933      Speed Math/Bingo Math (bp)                                  JB
* VIC 1935      Commodore Artist (gp)                                       JB
* VIC 1937      Sea Wolf (bp)                                               JB
* VIC 1938      Tooth Invaders                                              GY
* VIC 1939      Star Post (bp)                                              JB
* VIC 1941      Number Nabber Shape Grabber                                 
  VIC 2011      VIC-Stat cartridge.					    
  VIC 2012      VIC-Graph cartridge.
  VIC 2013      VIC-Forth cartridge.
  
Cassette Software Series:
*               An Introduction to BASIC Part I (VIC)                       PA
*               An Introduction to BASIC Part II (VIC)                      PA
* C64301        An Introduction to BASIC Part I (64)                        JB
* VL110         Gorek and the Microchips                                    JB
  VT106A        Recreation Six Pack (Car Chase, Blue Meanies, Space Math,
                Slither/Super Slither, Bioryhtm Capability)   
* VT107A        Home Utility Six Pack (Cassette with Personal Finance I & 2,
                VIC Typewriter, Expense Calendar, Loan and Mort. Calc,	    
                Home Inventory                                              DR
* VT108         Math Improvement Six Pack (Numbowl, LCM Machine, Sector
                Five, Backfire, Ruler Dueler, City Motel                    PA
* VT109         Six Pack Sampler (Crawler, Treasure of the Bat Cave, Big     
                Wolf, Alpha Draw, Music Synthesizer, Super Seeker           PA
                
Diskette Software Series:
* C64106        PILOT Programming Language (Large Book)                     JB
* C64207        Easy Script 64 (book, disks, and cardboard case             JB
* C64220        General Ledger v1.0                                         JB
* C64221        Account's Receivable                                        CO
* C64222        Account's Payable                                           CO
* C64223        Payroll v1.0                                                CO
* C64626        Infocom Zork II (marketed under CBM name)                   JB
* C64628        Infocom Deadline (marketed under CBM name)                  JB
* C64711        Math III                                                    JB
*               Introduction to Advanced BASIC Commands and Concepts        JB
*               Model 1541 Test/Demo Diskette                               JB
*               Commodore 64 Screen Editor                                  JB
  
Miscellaneous Series:
*               High Speed Graphic Expander for 600/700 Series              SK
*               Tractor Feed for MPS 803                                    BZ
*               HiRes Graphics for PET 4000/8000.
*               MOS Technology EPROM Programmer, Off-White.                 GP
                Single Sheet Feeder for CBM 8028.
                CBM 3040 to CBM 4040 ROM upgrade kit.
*               252594-01 CDTV remote controller, standard unit.            BB
  324402        High Speed Graphics board for CBM 40XX/80XX.                PO
  1001027-03    PAL TV Modulator for VIC-20.                                FF
* 201490-01     CHESSmate PCB: 201482 Rev A.  4 LEDs, 4 dig display. 19 key MB
* Amiga 10      Stereo MultiMedia Speakers, Cream.                          CS
* Amiga 520     RF Modulator Channel 3-4, Audio In, Video Out, RF Out       JM
* Amiga 570     CD-ROM for Amiga 500+, CDTV compatible.
* Amiga 1300    Amiga Genlock made for Amiga 1000.
* Amiga 1310    Amiga Genlock.
* Amiga 2031    Amiga PAL Video modulator board for A2000
* Amiga 2032    Amiga PAL Video modulator board for A2000
* Amiga 2070    150.250 MB Tape Drive, uses 1/4" tape, Grey, SCSI, A2000
* Amiga 2090    SCSI and ST506 (MFM)                                        MN
* Amiga 2090A   Autoboot A2090
* Amiga 2091    SCSI Controller, RAM Expansion.                             CS
* Amiga 2300    Amiga Genlock for A2000.
  Amiga 2301    Semi-professional Genlock (Possibly PAL?)
* Amiga 2320    Deinterlacer card.  Converts 15.75KHz display to 31.5KHz.
* Amiga 2350    Professional Genlock for A2000.
  Amiga 2351    Genlock (PAL?)
* Amiga 2410    "University of Lowell" TIGA Card, 8 bit GFX, TI34010.
  Amiga 2995    Video Master (Direction rack + Genlock + Video Digitizer)
* Amiga 3070    150.250 MB Tape Drive, uses 1/4" tape, Cream, SCSI.         CS
* Amiga 3406    Amiga RF Modulator.
* Amiga 4091    SCSI-2 Controller for Zorro III Slot.
* AMIX          O.S. ATT SysVR4 for A2000. Requires A2620.
* CBM 4010      Voice Response Unit made by Votrax for PETs.
* CBM 4270      I/O Controller for CBM PET series.                          SL
* CBM 8072      Graphics Tablet, IEEE-488.
* CBM 64850     Magic Voice Module for Commodore 64. (p/n 319000-01         GB
* CBM 60110     Commodore 64 CP/M Cartridge. US model?                      JV
* CBM 606480    Commodore 64 CP/M Cartridge. German model?                  HS
* CD 1200       Black external infrared controller for CDTV.
* CD 1221       Black version of A4000 Keyboard. CDTV dedicated, not I/R.   BZ
* CD 1300       Genlock card for CDTV (NTSC)
* CD 1301       Genlock card for CDTV (PAL)
* CD 1321       SCART card for CDTV
  CSA 58A-601   Thermostat manufactured for Johnson Controls.               DB
* Sound Expander CBM SFX FM Sound Expander: uses FM DSS IC in Yamaha DX7    RW
* Sound Sampler CBM SFX Sound Sampler                                       RW
* x375          Commodore Scanner                                           DI
* VIC 1011A     RS-232 Interface, Outputted True RS-232 Voltages            DT  
* VIC 1011B     RS-232 20mA Current Loop.                                   NP
* VIC 1020      Expansion Chassis for VIC                                   AC
* VIC 1112      IEEE-488 Interface.                                         HS
  VIC 1214      VIC Voice Synthesizer.
  VIC 4011      VIC-REL (Rele') Remote control switch
  VIC 4012      Vic-Switch.  Allow 16 VICs to share drives and printers.
* VIC 1010      VIC-20 Expansion Module                                     GE
* VM115         Softback Books (VIC Revealed, VIC Games, VIC Graphics, 
                Stimulating Situations for the VIC)

------------------Commodore Models Never Produced or Marketed:----------------

Commodore TOI Series:
  TOI           "The Other Intellect"
  
Commodore PET Series:
* CBM 4032-P    Portable 4032 Prototype. Had 4032, 4040, and Datasette.     RS
* CBM 8033      Color 8032. (Used NEC monitor in regular monitor housing)
  PETREGISTER   (CBMREGISTER) Cash register PET (based on 8032). 50 units

Commodore VIC Series:
  VIC-20TV      Vic-20 with built in 2" TV
  
Commodore 64 Series:                
  CBM SX-100    Predecessor of the SX-64, had B&W monitor.
  CBM DX-64     SX-64 with two drives.
  
Commodore 264 Series:
* CBM 232       C16 in Plus/4 case with 32 kB RAM
* CBM 264       Prototype Plus/4                                            JB
* CBM CV364     264 with keypad and speech synthesizer.
* CBM 464       C900
  
Commodore LCD Series: 
  CBM CLCD      Commodore Portable with LCD screen. 1MHz 65C102, BASIC 3.6,
                32 kB RAM, 96 kB ROM, 80x16 text display, 480x128 graphics,
                RS-232-C, Centronics, and H-P Bar Coder Ports, Plus-4 type
                keyboard, no SID, no sprites, ML Monitor in ROM.
  CBM C64Laptop Erroneous name for CLCD.

Commodore 128 Series:
  CBM C128PC    Preannounce name for C128.
* CBM C128D/81  Prototype C128D (plastic) with 3.5" drive                   AA
* CBM 256       128 with 125MB HD, one button mouse, built-in 3.5" drive    FD

Commodore P series:
  CBM P128      P-500                                
* CBM P500      B128 case, 2 joystick ports, 40 column video.               LA
  
C900 Series:    Prototype UNIX System, dropped after Amiga acquisition
                Zilog Z8000 CPU, Runs Coherent 0.7.3, UNIX 7 clone,
                Built-In Floppy, HD, IEEE-488. MFM Disk Controller, 1MB
                9600 bps, 500 units made. Came in two versions.
* C900/lo       LoRes (80*24 Text, Max 6 Serial Lines)                      PL
* C900/hi       HiRes (1024*800 Graphics 2 Serial Lines)                    SL
* Z 8000/lo     C900/lo                                                     PL
* Z 8000/hi     C900/hi                                                     SL

Amiga Series:
  A300          Prototype A600
  A300CD        A 300 + CD ROM Drive (first name of CD32 unit.)
  A3000+        3000 with 25MHz 68040, AGA, DSP. (<100 made)
  CDTV-II       CDTV with built in drive
  
Commodore 64DX Series: had both 64 and 65 mode.  built in 1581 style drive.
                       Native mode had BASIC 10.0, dual SID, 128kB and 3.54
                       MHz 6502 derivative CPU with extra addressing modes.
                       Could access >64kB directly.  
* CBM C65       Commodore 64 DX Machine                                     JB

Drive Series:
  CBM 1010      Pre 2040 prototype?
  CBM 1020	Pre 2040 prototype?
  CBM 1030      Pre 2040 prototype? 
  CBM 1541H     High density 1541 drive
  CBM 1543      1541H
  CBM 1541D     Double 1541
  CBM 1561      720kB single 3.5". for Commodore LCD.
* CBM 1563      720kB single 3.5". prototype of 1581, found in C128D/81     AA
  CBM 1571 II   1571 with external PS
* CBM 1590-D-1  Single 3.5" 1.44MB, DOS 14.13, 1581 case, Serial.           JV
  CBM 2041      Single 5.25" 170K, DOS1.2,Off-White,No Rel Files,IEEE-488.
  CBM 4040 LP   Dual 5.25" 170K, Off-White, Half Height, IEEE-488
  CBM 8070      Dual 8", ????
  CBM 8250 LP   Prototype, no "tower" PCBs on motherboard                   PK
  CBM D9062     Dual D9065.
  CBM D9065     7.5 MB Hard Drive   
*               35MB HD, Serial                                             JV
                3.5" DD FD for CBM Laptop, battery powered

PC Series:
* PC-30         PC-20-II with 20MB HD                                       PK
* PC-70         prototype of TW486-25C                                      PK
  PC-80-1       80386DX @ 16MHz, German.
  PC-80-2       Pentium Pro machine. (US only)
  A2088T        A2088 @ 8 MHz. V20.
  A2286/6       80286 @ 6MHz BridgeCard.
  A2286/10      80286 @ 10MHz BridgeCard.

CPU Upgrade Series:
  Amiga 2630    68030 and 68882 @ 33 MHz for A2000  with 4MB RAM

Miscellaneous Series:
* Amiga 3091    Internal SCSI Controller for A3000.  
                It exists, but is not a product.  It is a nickname for the
                SCSI Controller part of the A3000 Motherboard.

-----------------------------Owner Mnemonics:---------------------------------

AA    Al Anger                   coyote@bridge.net
AB    Adam Bergstrom             adam.bergstrom@um.erisoft.se
AC    Anders Carlsson            anders.carlsson@star.ct.se
BA    Brian Van Avermaete        sespgrrmmr@aol.com
BB    Brian Bell                 bbell19@nwlink.com
BC    Barbara Clarke             queenbee@mpx.com.au
BD    Bill Dwyne                 dwyne@wchat.on.ca
BG    Bruce Gomes                bgomes@magiccarpet.com
BK    Barry Kryshka              avs@visi.com
BR    Bob Richardson
BW    Bill Ward
BZ    Bo Zimmerman               bo@prismnet.com
CA    Chris Alevras
CE    Chris Eckersley            chris@brutaleq.demon.co.uk
CH    Charlie Hitselberger       72570.2520@compuserve.com
CK    Cameron Kaiser             ckaiser@sdcc17.ucsd.edu
CO    Carl Sofranko              snowhite@borg.com
CS    Christian Stich
DA    Doug Armstrong
DB    David Belter
DE    David Evola                devola@attila.stevens-tech.edu
DI    Darren Allion              
DL    Daniel Lowe
DR    Dave Ross                  dross4@niu.edu
DT    David Veatch               david.veatch@thuemmel.com
DV    David Villegas             mnementh@netcom.com
DW    Dirk Wilberg               Dirk_Wilberg@t-online.de
EB    Erik Inge Bols             eibolsoe@online.no
EC    Ernie Chorney
EG    Edward Groenenberg
FB    Fredrick Backman
FD    Fred Dagler                fdagler@netcom.com
FF    Fabrizio Farenga
FH    Frank Hughes               frankh@iquest.net
FM    Frank McKee                FRMCKEE@delphi.com
FR    Francois Bruggemans        Francois.Bruggemans@ping.be
GB    Gene B                     103243.446@compuserve.com
GD    Gregoire Debaiseux
GE    Gary Pearson
GK    Golan Klinger
GP    George Page
GR    Glen R. Perye III          macross@rust.net
GV    Gerben van Vlimmeren       vlimmere@simplex.nl
GY    Gil Y. Parrish             63430.1546@compuserve.com
HR    Harold Ross                hross@accutrade.com
HS    Horst Schulte-Schrepping
IC    Irv Cobb                   irv_cobb@radiks.net
IM    Ian MacGowan               ev90028@dial.pipex.com
IN    Thomas 'innot' Holland
JA    Joerg Amhofer              jamhofer@sbox.tu-graz.ac.at
JB    Jim Brain                  j.brain@ieee.org
JC    Joe Cassara		 joec@graveline.com 
JL    Jim Malenczak              jmlnczk@omni.epsb.net
JM    Jon Mines
JO    Jim Ronback                jronback@direct.ca
JP    Jim Spindler               commsys@syspac.com
JR    John Robinson              R980007@tees.ac.uk
JS    Jeff Shropshire            jshr@ix.netcom.com
JT    Joe Tiziano
JV    Jack Vanderwhite           ceejack@crl.com
KK    Ken Kopin
KO    Kevin Ottum                izombie@netins.net
LA    Larry Anderson            
LI    Lincard                    lincard@itsmac.waikato.ac.nz
LJ    L Jones                    jones29@delphi.com
MB    Martijn van Buul           martijnb@stack.nl
ME    Miika Seppanen             smaug@iwn.fi
MH    Michael Herz
MI    Marco Sicco                cshare@ix.netcom.com
MJ    Marc-Jano Knopp            mjk@c64.org
MK    Marcel van Kervinck
MM    Marko Makela
MN    Michael King               mhking@worldnet.att.net
MP    Michael Parson
MS    Myles Skinner
NP    Nhat-Veit Phi
PA    Patrick Mattauch           ay189@lafn.org
PB    Peter Bartlett             106047.3262@compuserve.com
PE    Pat Benner                 rufus@apexcorp.com
PK    Peter Kittel
PL    Pascal Lefrancois          eat@worldnet.net
PM    P. Moulin                  zorg@ctid.hp3c.fr
PO    Peter Soukup
PS    Paul Siu
PZ    Philip Zembrod
RB    Richard Briggs             rgb@achilles.net
RC    Rico                       elmer_fudd@voerde.globvill.de
RH    Richard Hable
RI    Rich White                 rwhite2@prolog.net
RJ    R. Jaycocks		 
RL    Rob vd Luur                luur@pi.net
RM    Ronald A. Mayne            aardvark@chesco.com
RN    RIchard Cini               70153.3367@compuserve.com
RS    Ronald Snyder
RW    Randy Winchester
SA    Simon Lambourn             simonlam@cogs.sussex.ac.uk
SD    Shawn Dessaigne            pierrot@jersey.net
SF    Sean Fox                   mailcall@kiva.net
SK    Stephan Kleinert           lemon@gromit.inka.de
SL    Scott McLauchlan           scott@softserver@canberra.edu.au
SM    Sander van Malssen
SL    Simon Laule
TE    Thomas Hechelhammer        119833920002-0001@t-online.de
TG    Tom Griner                 TEG@vicor.com
TH    Tapio Olavi Heikkinen
TL    Thomas Lampart
TM    Tony McKimm
TA    Todd Mason                 BMW.M3er@sleepless.acm.uiuc.edu
VM    Ville Muikkula             vmuikku@yrttis.ratol.fi
WA    Wolfram Sauerteig          wsauerte@ac.hape.de 
                                 wolfram_sauerteig@hippo.fiod.de
WS    Ward Shrake                wardshrake@aol.com
WW    WrongWay                   wrongway@eagle.ais.net
WZ    William Zwicky             w-zwicky@cecer.army.mil
YC    Yvette Cantrell

===========================End of Canonical List==============================


In article <001701be27ba$70292ea0$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>,
"Richard A. Cini, Jr."  wrote:
>While browsing early-84 Bytes, I came across two references to new Commodore
>computers. One was the Z8000-based "Next Generation", which was to run
>Concurent Unix. The other was a Series 264 machine.
>
>Any info on these?
>
>[  Rich Cini/WUGNET
>[   ClubWin!/CW7
>[   MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
>[   Collector of "classic" computers
>[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
>[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/
><================   reply   separator  =================>
>
>
>
>

-- 
--
*********** A NOTE FROM JIM BRAIN ********************************************

I would like to apologize for the lateness in replying to your letter or note.
Please do not take offense at the lack of a reply from myself.  The Brain
family has had some very extenuating circumstances throughout the 1998 year.

At the close of 1997, my wife became gravely ill while in her first trimester
of pregnancy with our son.  To support my wife's needs, I switched the
www.jbrain.com web site, ftp.jbrain.com FTP site and mail.jbrain.com
listserver to autopilot and discontinued all online activities, including FAQ
maintenance, responses to email requests, and other demands for my time.  I
also shut down Brain Innovations, Inc., our side business.

My wife's health improved by March of 1998, and in June 19, 1998, Brent 
Harrison Brain came into the world at 7:50 AM.  However, at 5 pounds, 3
ounces, Brent was 5 weeks early and a bit of a preemie.  We were very ecstatic
at the arrival.

A few weeks later, Brent, who had not learned how to nurse very well, weighed
in at 4 pounds and was sent to the neonatal ICU to stabilize his weight and
regain lost fluids.  The cause was his underdeveloped "sucking" instinct,
which is common in preemies.  Brent quickly stabilized and he was sent home
within 3 days.  I am happy to report that Brent has now learned all he needed
to get food and now tips the scale at 15 pounds.

Abaout this time, my commercial Internet Service Provider upgraded some
application libraries on my server (which I share with many others) and broke
the entire www.jbrain.com.  It took from June 1 to July 1 to fix the problem,
which eventually led to the migration of the jbrain.com domain to a new server
with upgraded scripting tools, rendering the old www.jbrain.com unusable.  I
then started working on a replacement.

I was able to get email and mailing lists back in operation before my wife and
I (Brent was at home with my parents) were involved in a broadside collision
while on our first "date" after the birth.  I was left unhurt, but my wife
sustained bruises and broken bones.  Due to the breastfeeding, she was unable
to take adequate medication, and her immobility made taking care of our son a
impossible task.  With some regret, I packed her and my son off with my
parents to drive 10 hours to IL, where my wife's mother would care for both of
them.  I stayed at our house to direct the replacement of our totaled Saturn
automobile

In early August, my wife and son returned to Nebraska, but it took a few
months for my wife injuries to heal to the point where she could care for our
son during the day alone and withut discomfort.

The events of the past 7 months caused us both to "withdraw" from the world in
some respects.  I have let email and web maintenance go without intervention,
while we've both been slow to start back into any projects or start up our
side business again.

However, we are finally feeling better able to tackle the many demands on our
time and the many hobbies we enjoy.  My hope is that we can start out 1999
with a clean slate and forget about our many trials in 1998.  We will, though,
always remember 1998 as the year our son came to us (but I hope that is all we
remember from it).  I am happy to report that as of December 7, 1998, Brent is
doing great, my wife is hoping to make a full recovery (though her back and
feet still hurt occasionally).  I am finally finishing some projects around
the house and finding time and the energy to restart enjoying my hobbies and
my online presence.

As I write this, I am preparing to work my wife through 9 months of
accumulated email from mail.jbrain.com.  If you have sent me more than one
message, please excuse the redundancy of the note when you receive it 
additional times.  For simplicity sake, this is my .signature file for the 
next few weeks.  

We appreciate the responses we have received from folks during our trials.
However, please do not feel it necesary to respond to this message, at least
not for a few weeks.  Doing so now will simply put more email in my inbox, of
which I have plenty at present.

Merry Christmas to everyone, and look for the Brain Christmas Letter on our
web site.

Jim Brain (and family)

--
Jim Brain, Embedded System Designer, Brain Innovations, Inc. (BII)(offline sig)
bii@mail.jbrain.com "Above views DO reflect my employer, since I'm my employer"
Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times!      -Me-
BII Home: http://www.jbrain.com          CBM Info: http://www.jbrain.com/vicug/


From brain at mail.jbrain.com  Tue Dec 15 22:27:23 1998
From: brain at mail.jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Commodore 64/64C?
Message-ID: 
 


I have done this on a 64C case here.  It requires a little surgery (minor),
but nothing serious.

The 64 MB is preferred since it has sockets and uses a 6581 SID, not the cost
reduced 8580 SID that has broken filters.

Jim

In article ,
"Salzman, Jeff"  wrote:
>Mostly, there are some motherboard design difference between the two.
>However, it is known that you can actually swap the boards between the
>two if you preferred one case over another and have a bad unit. There
>were at least 4 different board revisions, so some boards may not move
>to another case. Another thing you might notice is the power supply
>connector is different. There was a connector redesign between the newer
>(aka 'flat C64') and older (aka 'Breadbox') C64's. The flat 64 has a
>square connector where the breadbox 64 has a round one. The flat 64 also
>has a different component layout due to IC consolidation. Maybe those
>newer chip designs are what's overheating your system. Or it could be
>the fact that the parts are closer to the outside of the case.
>
>I'm toying with the idea of swapping boards in my systems. I only heard
>that it can be done. I want a functional version of each and I have 2
>working flat units and 7 dead breadboxes (of which I salvaged parts from
>to get an SX-64 working). For my display units, I would like one of each
>design in working order.
>
>Hope this helps,
>Jeff Salzman
>
>>I was wondering, what is the difference between a regular Commodore 64 and a
>>64C? I've got one of each, and everything seems identical other than that the
>>64C looks like a 128. (Well, one other difference is that the 64C overheats
>>after about an hour or so...)
>>
>

-- 
--
*********** A NOTE FROM JIM BRAIN ********************************************

I would like to apologize for the lateness in replying to your letter or note.
Please do not take offense at the lack of a reply from myself.  The Brain
family has had some very extenuating circumstances throughout the 1998 year.

At the close of 1997, my wife became gravely ill while in her first trimester
of pregnancy with our son.  To support my wife's needs, I switched the
www.jbrain.com web site, ftp.jbrain.com FTP site and mail.jbrain.com
listserver to autopilot and discontinued all online activities, including FAQ
maintenance, responses to email requests, and other demands for my time.  I
also shut down Brain Innovations, Inc., our side business.

My wife's health improved by March of 1998, and in June 19, 1998, Brent 
Harrison Brain came into the world at 7:50 AM.  However, at 5 pounds, 3
ounces, Brent was 5 weeks early and a bit of a preemie.  We were very ecstatic
at the arrival.

A few weeks later, Brent, who had not learned how to nurse very well, weighed
in at 4 pounds and was sent to the neonatal ICU to stabilize his weight and
regain lost fluids.  The cause was his underdeveloped "sucking" instinct,
which is common in preemies.  Brent quickly stabilized and he was sent home
within 3 days.  I am happy to report that Brent has now learned all he needed
to get food and now tips the scale at 15 pounds.

Abaout this time, my commercial Internet Service Provider upgraded some
application libraries on my server (which I share with many others) and broke
the entire www.jbrain.com.  It took from June 1 to July 1 to fix the problem,
which eventually led to the migration of the jbrain.com domain to a new server
with upgraded scripting tools, rendering the old www.jbrain.com unusable.  I
then started working on a replacement.

I was able to get email and mailing lists back in operation before my wife and
I (Brent was at home with my parents) were involved in a broadside collision
while on our first "date" after the birth.  I was left unhurt, but my wife
sustained bruises and broken bones.  Due to the breastfeeding, she was unable
to take adequate medication, and her immobility made taking care of our son a
impossible task.  With some regret, I packed her and my son off with my
parents to drive 10 hours to IL, where my wife's mother would care for both of
them.  I stayed at our house to direct the replacement of our totaled Saturn
automobile

In early August, my wife and son returned to Nebraska, but it took a few
months for my wife injuries to heal to the point where she could care for our
son during the day alone and withut discomfort.

The events of the past 7 months caused us both to "withdraw" from the world in
some respects.  I have let email and web maintenance go without intervention,
while we've both been slow to start back into any projects or start up our
side business again.

However, we are finally feeling better able to tackle the many demands on our
time and the many hobbies we enjoy.  My hope is that we can start out 1999
with a clean slate and forget about our many trials in 1998.  We will, though,
always remember 1998 as the year our son came to us (but I hope that is all we
remember from it).  I am happy to report that as of December 7, 1998, Brent is
doing great, my wife is hoping to make a full recovery (though her back and
feet still hurt occasionally).  I am finally finishing some projects around
the house and finding time and the energy to restart enjoying my hobbies and
my online presence.

As I write this, I am preparing to work my wife through 9 months of
accumulated email from mail.jbrain.com.  If you have sent me more than one
message, please excuse the redundancy of the note when you receive it 
additional times.  For simplicity sake, this is my .signature file for the 
next few weeks.  

We appreciate the responses we have received from folks during our trials.
However, please do not feel it necesary to respond to this message, at least
not for a few weeks.  Doing so now will simply put more email in my inbox, of
which I have plenty at present.

Merry Christmas to everyone, and look for the Brain Christmas Letter on our
web site.

Jim Brain (and family)

--
Jim Brain, Embedded System Designer, Brain Innovations, Inc. (BII)(offline sig)
bii@mail.jbrain.com "Above views DO reflect my employer, since I'm my employer"
Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times!      -Me-
BII Home: http://www.jbrain.com          CBM Info: http://www.jbrain.com/vicug/


From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Wed Dec 16 19:23:39 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Computer paint jobs (was Re: SOL feeding frenzy?)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19981216161927.437ffa24@ricochet.net> from "Uncle Roger" at Dec 16, 1998 05:03:44 PM
Message-ID: <199812170123.SAA19929@calico.litterbox.com>

> There was some discussion a while back on the [TRS-80 Model 100] m100 list
> about that -- some one (a college kid iirc) had taken his apart and used
> purple(?) spray paint to add a cool design to the case.  
> 
> I always thought that was cool, but I haven't come across a computer I feel
> comfortable doing that to.  Yet.
> 

I've heard of machines painted with cow spots.  Very amusing.  I always figured
Gateway should offer cases like that.


-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From yowza at yowza.com  Wed Dec 16 19:25:13 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19981216152949.4387cce2@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Uncle Roger wrote:

> Where would classic computers be without thrift shops, surplus dealers,
> jameco, digi-key(?), heck, even eBay?

They would all be in Sam's garage.

-- Doug



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 16 17:54:15 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To:  from "Doug Yowza" at Dec 16, 98 04:22:06 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 16 17:29:19 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: PDP-8 Core
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981216141122.00ab4940@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Dec 16, 98 02:15:07 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 16 17:59:38 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: OT: Value/money making (was Re: SOL feeding frenzy?)
In-Reply-To: <3678336C.F76B505F@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Dec 16, 98 02:25:48 pm
Message-ID: 

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From zmerch at 30below.com  Wed Dec 16 19:39:03 1998
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Computer paint jobs (was Re: SOL feeding frenzy?)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19981216161927.437ffa24@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981216203903.009765a0@mail.30below.com>

Once upon a midnight dreary, Uncle Roger had spoken clearly:

>There was some discussion a while back on the [TRS-80 Model 100] m100 list

[snip]

Which is still alive, BTW... ;-)

>I always thought that was cool, but I haven't come across a computer I feel
>comfortable doing that to.  Yet.

I'd like to turn my Pentium case over to a buddy of mine so he could paint
flames (or something) on it... but it's a metal case...

What types of paint are good to use on plastic cases / bezels??? I have a
few computers (plus the front bezels of my Pentium) I'd like to paint, but
am afraid of the paint not sticking to the plastic and having it look like
crap in a few months...

"Merch"


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Dec 16 19:33:33 1998
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Computer paint jobs (was Re: SOL feeding frenzy?)
In-Reply-To: <199812170123.SAA19929@calico.litterbox.com>
Message-ID: 

So, ...
WHY does everybody leave their computers with that beige primer that 
they come from the factory with?



--
Fred Cisin                      cisin@xenosoft.com
XenoSoft                        http://www.xenosoft.com
2210 Sixth St.                  (510) 644-9366
Berkeley, CA 94710-2219



From dpeschel at u.washington.edu  Wed Dec 16 19:49:54 1998
From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Filetypes (was Re: Xerox)
In-Reply-To: <199812170044.QAA12208@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Dec 16, 98 04:44:00 pm
Message-ID: <199812170149.RAA12395@saul10.u.washington.edu>

> Wow, I only knew about T, I, A and B. S, R and A2/B2 I've never heard of
> before. Could be undocumented filetypes ...

In _Beneath Apple DOS_, *everything* is documented.  Well, practically
everything.  There's a fairly specific breakdown of the DOS machine code
(with entry points, the purpose of each routine, etc.) which was made by
disassembling the code.  It's good enough that you would have a chance of
understanding the code if you disassembled it yourself.  There are also
sample listings for a small disk editor, individual track formatter, etc.

> Replace with U for USR. The Commodore manual says that USR files are "user
> defined file structures" but there's no way to define that structure. As
> the above proves, they're all written to and read from in the same way. You
> can even use DEL files (the DELeted file type, very exotic) like this, I
> think it's ,L for those.

Hmm.  The Commodore OS is more powerful than I thought.  I still think the
syntax and implementation is rather clunky.  I'll admit that Apple DOS is
crude, but in some ways (mostly control of the disk drive) it's very
flexible since it's all done in software!  And of course the Apple drive
combines its amazing simplicity with respectable speed, unlike the
shamefully slow Commodore drive.

> data stream in SEQ/USR/PRG). In the light you present it, the Apple system
> starts to make a little more sense.

What light?  The "look at the data types and actions" approach?  I guess I
would call that the object-oriented viewpoint.  It sounds like you're saying
you understand more about the reasons why DOS is the way it is... is that
right?

-- Derek


From red at bears.org  Wed Dec 16 20:05:28 1998
From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Computer paint jobs (was Re: SOL feeding frenzy?)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981216203903.009765a0@mail.30below.com>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Roger Merchberger wrote:

> What types of paint are good to use on plastic cases / bezels??? I have a
> few computers (plus the front bezels of my Pentium) I'd like to paint, but
> am afraid of the paint not sticking to the plastic and having it look like
> crap in a few months...

I've had my best results with hobbyist (RC car or aeroplane type) spray
enamel. 

Barring that, that awful krylon stuff seems to work all right. One
important thing to do is to buff the surface with steel wool, to give the
paint something to stick to, and then clean it with isopropyl alcohol to
remove grease and fingerprints and dust.

My grasp on the english language is slipping.. maybe I should go home and
take a nap.

-- 
ok
r.					r e d  @  b e a r s . o r g
					===========================
					[ urs longa | vita brevis ]



From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Wed Dec 16 20:06:32 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: unencoded keyboard
Message-ID: <199812170206.TAA20152@calico.litterbox.com>

Was someone here looking for un-encoded keyboards?  If so, Alltronics has them
for $1.99 US.  43 keys, 5.5 inches by 2 inches.  www.alltronics.com
-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 16 19:38:10 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: <01BE292B.2ED07AE0@slip-32-100-187-195.oh.us.ibm.net> from "Barry A. Watzman" at Dec 16, 98 05:52:58 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 16 19:46:27 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit - Philips?
In-Reply-To: <1620fb1b.36783edb@aol.com> from "Innfogra@aol.com" at Dec 16, 98 06:14:35 pm
Message-ID: 

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From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Wed Dec 16 21:16:29 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: disk drive database
Message-ID: <199812170316.UAA20370@calico.litterbox.com>

A week ago, someone was asking for hard disk params and someone else posted
a really good web site with all kinds of disks.  Naturally I forgot to 
bookmark it.  Could someone repeat that URL, please?
-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From yowza at yowza.com  Wed Dec 16 21:19:07 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:

> It became rather more interesting if, like me, you added a few relays and 
> a stepping switch.

That's a good idea.  The original machine was basically a PROM, so add
some memory and a sequencer, et voila -- a real computer.

> Is 'Science Fair' a name used by Radio Shack/Tandy? It seemed to be that 
> in the UK - we had all sorts of 'Science Fair' kits, mostly of the '3 
> transistors joined by spring terminals' type.

Yes, that's the one -- king of the spring terminals.

There was also a Science Fair Microprocessor Trainer that I find much more
interesting, even if it's not mechanical: TMS1000, hex keypad, LEDs, and
speaker.

-- Doug



From nerdware at laidbak.com  Wed Dec 16 21:43:27 1998
From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: OT: Learning new words (was RE: "Single instance" machines)
In-Reply-To: <981216194548.2f00081a@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: <199812170340.VAA27933@garcon.laidbak.com>

Date sent:      	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:45:48 -0500
Send reply to:  	classiccmp@u.washington.edu
From:           	CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com
To:             	"Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
Subject:        	RE: OT: Learning new words (was RE: "Single instance" machines)
Originally to:  	classiccmp@u.WASHINGTON.EDU

> >(mean?) humorous streak.  They taught him a very interesting form of
> >English - and colourful.  Instead of saying "wow, excellent!", they
> >convinced him that the correct thing to say was "most spannerlike!", and
> >that a correct form of greeting was "Hello Sailor!".  There were many more
> >interesting variations, and his English was eventually, suffice it to say,
> >unusual :)
> 
> Six words: "My hovercraft is full of eels"
> 
> Tim.

How about "The wastepaper basket is yellow."




Paul Braun
NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you.
nerdware@laidbak.com
www.laidbak.com/nerdware


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Wed Dec 16 22:12:48 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: disk drive database
In-Reply-To: <199812170316.UAA20370@calico.litterbox.com>
Message-ID: 

>A week ago, someone was asking for hard disk params and someone else posted
>a really good web site with all kinds of disks.  Naturally I forgot to
>bookmark it.  Could someone repeat that URL, please?

That would have been me that posted it, but   it doesn't
matter that you forgot to bookmark it from the looks of things .  I
just went to http://www.blue-planet.com/tech/ and they've got some kind of
login, but no clue as to what it's about .

This really sucks!  This was one of the most useful sites I've run across,
I REALLY am hoping it's some kind of configuration mistake!

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Wed Dec 16 22:32:14 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Xerox
In-Reply-To: <009a01be2938$1825f240$23021a26@maxeskin>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Max Eskin wrote:

> >I thought about 'hide' in the sense of not showing technical terms
> >where they are not needed. For example, with Win you still have a
> >FD named A: and a HD named C: (or with the Amiga df0: etc.)
> 
> That's what I'm asking. How do you save to floppy on a Daybreak?

I think you drag the file onto the floppy drive icon.  I'll know for sure
this weekend when we have our 6085 party and fire one up to play with.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From roblwill at usaor.net  Thu Dec 17 01:37:16 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: disk drive database
Message-ID: <01be2990$11e4f680$c48ea6d1@the-general>

The site seems to work fine for me without any login...  I'm running IE4.0.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318


-----Original Message-----
From: Zane H. Healy 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: disk drive database


>>A week ago, someone was asking for hard disk params and someone else
posted
>>a really good web site with all kinds of disks.  Naturally I forgot to
>>bookmark it.  Could someone repeat that URL, please?
>
>That would have been me that posted it, but   it doesn't
>matter that you forgot to bookmark it from the looks of things .  I
>just went to http://www.blue-planet.com/tech/ and they've got some kind of
>login, but no clue as to what it's about .
>
>This really sucks!  This was one of the most useful sites I've run across,
>I REALLY am hoping it's some kind of configuration mistake!
>
> Zane
>| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
>| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
>| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
>+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
>|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
>|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
>|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |
>



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Wed Dec 16 22:57:12 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Xerox
In-Reply-To: <199812162303.PAA05846@oa.ptloma.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

> That was one thing that seriously irked me about Apple DOS 3.3 was the
> differentiation between Applesoft, Integer BASIC and binary files. I could
> understand text files being a separate file type, but *binaries*?

Huh?  AppleSoft files were files tokenized under AppleSoft BASIC, and
Integer BASIC files were ones tokenized under Integer BASIC...a big
difference.  Binary files held machine code or data of some sort.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Wed Dec 16 22:58:41 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, James Willing wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote:
> 
> > As I told Sam, we sure are a generous group!  I saw the collection at Moffet
> > Field and in all seriousness, it sure was impressive.  I heard somewhere
> > that permanent facilities have been established.  Do you know if this is
> > true, and if so, when it will open to the public?  That collection is a
> > *must see* for anyone interested in the history of computing!
> 
> Well... as I recall being stated during the VCF II tour (thanks again
> Sam!), they were working the final details with NASA for the large
> dirigible hanger near their temporary facillity.

NASA sold (permanently loaned?) several acres of land in Mountain View to
The Computer Museum History Center, so they will be gearing up to finally
build a permanent museum that will open sometime in the middle of the next
decade.  It should be a pretty awesome facility once its all complete.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Wed Dec 16 23:07:06 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Filetypes (was Re: Xerox)
In-Reply-To: <199812170044.QAA12208@oa.ptloma.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

> ::If you look through memory, you can find the string BARSBAIT.
> 
> ... or maybe Steve Wozniak just wanted to get drunk. :-)

Woz didn't write Apple's DOS.  OSS (the same guys who did Atari's DOS)  
did.  For the full story, see:

http://www.laughton.com/Apple/Apple.html

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Wed Dec 16 23:09:40 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19981216152949.4387cce2@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Uncle Roger wrote:

> At 04:19 PM 12/15/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >there are actually people trying to make money off this hobby.
> 
> And this is bad?  In the world of classic Land Rovers (mine turns 40 next
> year), I and all the other enthusiasts would be up the proverbial creek
> were it not for people out to make a buck -- the parts dealers, mechanics,
> magazines, show producers, rally arrangers, etc.  
> 
> Where would classic computers be without thrift shops, surplus dealers,
> jameco, digi-key(?), heck, even eBay?

At the flea markets and ham fests where all the best deals are found
anyway.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Wed Dec 16 23:31:34 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: disk drive database
In-Reply-To: <199812170316.UAA20370@calico.litterbox.com>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Jim Strickland wrote:

> A week ago, someone was asking for hard disk params and someone else posted
> a really good web site with all kinds of disks.  Naturally I forgot to 
> bookmark it.  Could someone repeat that URL, please?

Well, I have http://www.blue-planet.com/tech/no-frames.html linked from
the VCF links page but it is snobbishly requiring a username and password
to access the site now.  Lame.  I'll be removing that link immediately.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From ddameron at earthlink.net  Thu Dec 17 00:09:03 1998
From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:18 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
Message-ID: <199812170609.WAA07540@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

Hi Doug and all,
At 12:50 AM 12/16/98 -0600, you wrote:
>On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, dave dameron wrote:
>
>> I was looked through some older magazines and found another computer kit
>> from about 1959, 1960, a full page ad for the "geniac". It has 6 dials, each
>> with 16 sets of radial holes. It's cost was US$19.95 and made in Mass.  My
>> guess is it was electro-mechanical, but could not tell any more from the ad.
>> The ad said it could play "Nim", but that doesn't seem to be that unusual.
>> Has anyone seen one or knows what it did?
>
>Geez, Dave, you're stealing all of my thunder.  Can't you wait until I
>open up my museum of personal computing?  :-)

O.K. :-) Well, I guess your museum will be that much more appealing. I have
seen ads for many other computer kits, most have no name so I cannot
describe them. The Digicomp I and Geniac seem to be more known.
And yes, I would eliminate "logic trainers" too. I even saw a 74181 wired
with input switches and output lamps. The time to assemble it would vastly
exceed the time to exercise the 16 or so demo's!

Others are very simple, such as the 3 potentiometer "3 dialer" analog
"computers". I still have one I built in Jr. high school. (About age 14).
>
>The GENIAC was designed by Edmund Berkeley in 1955 and sold by his buddy
>Oliver Garfield until the late 50's.  Thomas Haddock calls the GENIAC the
>first pc.  He was close, but wrong.
>
>A nice guy by the name of Tom Boyko has a GENIAC (please, dealers, don't
>bug him about selling it):
>
>Here are some pics of the manual:
>	http://www.Tom.Boyko.com/comp.htm

A lot of other interesting systems, too.
>
>And here's an excellent Usenet account of how the GENIAC works:
>	http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=213505518

This info is interesting. He made a card reader to input "Monopoly" data. So
it appears to be 6 rotary switches made on the panel. Up to 6 poles, 16
position each. Amazing what could be "programmed"! Changing the "hard wired"
connections may be a chore if its wires under the screw terminals, did not
notice any place for a sort of a breadboard or "patch panel" to do this, or
that one would fit the scope of it anyway.

Thanks for all the information.

-Dave



From gram at cnct.com  Thu Dec 17 00:26:01 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s
References: 
Message-ID: <3678A3F9.9A4E6C35@cnct.com>

Sam Ismail wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, James Willing wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote:
> >
> > > As I told Sam, we sure are a generous group!  I saw the collection at Moffet
> > > Field and in all seriousness, it sure was impressive.  I heard somewhere
> > > that permanent facilities have been established.  Do you know if this is
> > > true, and if so, when it will open to the public?  That collection is a
> > > *must see* for anyone interested in the history of computing!
> >
> > Well... as I recall being stated during the VCF II tour (thanks again
> > Sam!), they were working the final details with NASA for the large
> > dirigible hanger near their temporary facillity.
> 
> NASA sold (permanently loaned?) several acres of land in Mountain View to
> The Computer Museum History Center, so they will be gearing up to finally
> build a permanent museum that will open sometime in the middle of the next
> decade.  It should be a pretty awesome facility once its all complete.

As much as I love old computers, I'd rather see that hangar restored
for its original purpose.  I fell in love with airships _long_ before
I had the least interest in computers, my childhood home was under
the flight path between the Goodyear hangar in Inglewood and the Rose
Bowl in Pasadena -- to hell with staying indoors and watching that
silly parade on TV.  In fact, I took my first programming course to
learn to work out engineering questions on the rigid airship designs
that I'm still playing with, it was pure coincidence that it was a
prerequisite or concurrent requirement for the calculus sequence I
also started that quarter (I was a mathematics major, after all).

Back in the late 70s when I was commuting along 101 between Los Altos
and Santa Clara it depressed me to see a building large enough to
have its own weather do nothing more than hold a handful of Navy P-3s
littering the floor.  Unfortunately, it couldn't be used for the ones
I design anyway, as mine are lens-shaped rather than the traditional
cigar.  But there are plenty of people playing with the old styles.

By the way, this is not totally off-topic -- I still have some of the
programs I used to let my TRS-80 chew on for days at a time working
out structural optimizations.  And even some I used for renderings on
the Color Computer and the Tandy 2000.  Once a couple of patents have
either succeded or failed, I'll make them available (shouldn't be
more than a couple of years now).
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Dec 17 00:25:55 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: disk drive database
In-Reply-To: <01be2990$11e4f680$c48ea6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: 

>The site seems to work fine for me without any login...  I'm running IE4.0.

That's wierd, I just checked again and still can't get in.  I'm running
Netscrape 4.08/Mac, and Sam is also having problems.  Wonder if they've
gone over to the dark side :^(

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From jpero at pop.cgocable.net  Wed Dec 16 19:36:48 1998
From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: disk drive database
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812170316.UAA20370@calico.litterbox.com>
Message-ID: <199812170630.BAA10721@mail.cgocable.net>

> Date:          Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:31:34 -0800 (PST)
> Reply-to:      classiccmp@u.washington.edu
> From:          Sam Ismail 
> To:            "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
> Subject:       Re: disk drive database
> X-To:          Discussion re-collecting of classic computers 

> Well, I have http://www.blue-planet.com/tech/no-frames.html linked from
> the VCF links page but it is snobbishly requiring a username and password
> to access the site now.  Lame.  I'll be removing that link immediately.
> 
> Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Always being hassled by the man.

I tried 3 ways:

http://www.blue-planet.com/tech/no-frames.html, same bot
http://www.blue-planet.com/tech , ditto
http://www.blue-planet.com, ditto.

I think something is broken over there.
Point is, how one get in in first place to get registered even at 
lowest level like the last try I tried?  Find a way and email there 
tellin' it's not working right.

http://theref.c3d.rl.af.mil/

is your good side to rely on still and I use it lot.


email: jpero@cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.


From rexstout at uswest.net  Thu Dec 17 00:43:16 1998
From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Free IBM 4997 rack in Portland, OR
Message-ID: 

Come and get it, it's a bare IBM 4997. No side panels, no power strip, no
mounting rails... Just a plain rack. Free to the first person who can come
pick it up in north Portland(not too far off of I-5).

--------------------------------------------------------------
| http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers |
| http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek     |
|   orham@qth.net   list admin                KD7BCY         |
|   ham-mac@qth.net                        Portland, OR      |
--------------------------------------------------------------




From jimw at agora.rdrop.com  Thu Dec 17 00:48:28 1998
From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: <199812170609.WAA07540@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981216224828.01773da8@agora.rdrop.com>

At 10:09 PM 12/16/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Hi Doug and all,
>At 12:50 AM 12/16/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, dave dameron wrote:
>>
>>> I was looked through some older magazines and found another computer kit
>>> from about 1959, 1960, a full page ad for the "geniac". It has 6 dials,
each
>>> with 16 sets of radial holes. It's cost was US$19.95 and made in Mass.  My
>>> guess is it was electro-mechanical, but could not tell any more from
the ad.
>>> The ad said it could play "Nim", but that doesn't seem to be that unusual.
>>> Has anyone seen one or knows what it did?
>>
>>The GENIAC was designed by Edmund Berkeley in 1955 and sold by his buddy
>>Oliver Garfield until the late 50's.  Thomas Haddock calls the GENIAC the
>>first pc.  He was close, but wrong.

Hmmm... I had one of those once upon a time, and could swear that I found
the manual for it (missing the front cover tho...) again recently.  Have to
put that back on my 'dig it out' list.

-jim

---
jimw@agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174




From yowza at yowza.com  Thu Dec 17 00:45:58 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Blimps
In-Reply-To: <3678A3F9.9A4E6C35@cnct.com>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:

> silly parade on TV.  In fact, I took my first programming course to
> learn to work out engineering questions on the rigid airship designs
> that I'm still playing with, it was pure coincidence that it was a
> prerequisite or concurrent requirement for the calculus sequence I
> also started that quarter (I was a mathematics major, after all).

Interesting.  My first paying programming contract was to do hot-air
balloon structural analysis on an Apple ][.  A balloon maker in Rancho
Sante Fe (just north of San Diego) had to get FAA certification for new
designs, so they paid some college kid to write a program that proved
their designs were safe (luckily, I was studying continuum mechanics at
the time). 

I was able to generate some pretty pictures and some numbers that looked
right to me, and the FAA bought it, but there was no way I was going up in
one of those things!

-- Doug



From marvin at rain.org  Thu Dec 17 00:46:29 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: disk drive database
References: <199812170316.UAA20370@calico.litterbox.com> <199812170630.BAA10721@mail.cgocable.net>
Message-ID: <3678A8C5.F9D79259@rain.org>

jpero@pop.cgocable.net wrote:
> 

> > Well, I have http://www.blue-planet.com/tech/no-frames.html linked from
> > the VCF links page but it is snobbishly requiring a username and password
> > to access the site now.  Lame.  I'll be removing that link immediately.
> >
> 
> I tried 3 ways:
> 
> http://www.blue-planet.com/tech/no-frames.html, same bot
> http://www.blue-planet.com/tech , ditto
> http://www.blue-planet.com, ditto.

I just went in with no problems.  Is it possible a filter has been installed
to reject your site(s)?


From gram at cnct.com  Thu Dec 17 00:58:50 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
References: 
Message-ID: <3678ABAA.52370F8A@cnct.com>

Tony Duell wrote:

> Now, if it causes no intereference outside your house, who is to know or
> care :-). OK, if %random-public buys a computer he should be able to
> assume it'll not interfere with his TV in the same room. But if you build
> one, then provided it only wipes out _your_ TV and not those of your
> neighbours, then there's no real problem.

Yeah, that's why my ex-mother-in-law had to switch from her TRS-80
Mod One to a Compaq "Portable".  The neighbors around her condo
finally found out what was fuzzing up their soap operas.  I wound
up with the computer, which was later stolen from my car (and no
doubt trashed when the thieves discovered its resale value was
approximately zero -- 1986 was not a year it would have a serious
value even to a collector, let alone a pawn shop).  Mind you the
rather older 8-track deck under the dashboard of my VW was not
stolen, even though it had the Radio Shack cassette adapter in it.

The Mod One and Apple II were the _reason_ the FCC came out with
rules concerning interference by personal computers (and other
home electronics).  The S-100 hobbyists had never existed in the
large numbers to cause action.  Once appliance computers shipped in
real quantity, the government took action.  THe only previous
equipment that caused TV interference, ham radios and such, were
already heavily regulated anyway.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From gram at cnct.com  Thu Dec 17 01:06:33 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
References: 
Message-ID: <3678AD79.3EDCBD73@cnct.com>

Doug Yowza wrote:

> > Is 'Science Fair' a name used by Radio Shack/Tandy? It seemed to be that
> > in the UK - we had all sorts of 'Science Fair' kits, mostly of the '3
> > transistors joined by spring terminals' type.
> 
> Yes, that's the one -- king of the spring terminals.
> 
> There was also a Science Fair Microprocessor Trainer that I find much more
> interesting, even if it's not mechanical: TMS1000, hex keypad, LEDs, and
> speaker.

Yes, "Science Fair" was a Tandy trademark.  I never had the digital
kit, but in the late 60s/early 70s I had several of the better
general electronic kits, mostly analog stuff.  The documentation
seemed OK in my hazy memory, but I did supplement it with a lot of
library check-outs.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Dec 17 01:12:59 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: disk drive database
In-Reply-To: <3678A8C5.F9D79259@rain.org>
References: <199812170316.UAA20370@calico.litterbox.com>
 <199812170630.BAA10721@mail.cgocable.net>
Message-ID: 

>I just went in with no problems.  Is it possible a filter has been installed
>to reject your site(s)?

Not sites, browsers.  Sam, what browser are you using?  From Netscape
4.08/Mac I can't access the site, but using lynx from my server (Alpha
running OpenBSD) I can access the site.  Second alternative is it doesn't
like NAT/IP Masq suddenly.

Wish I'd tried from the Mac a few minutes ago while dialed into work, or
from the Linux box before I shut it down.

Wierd/irritating/Grrr/thankfully not gone.

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From red at bears.org  Thu Dec 17 01:30:49 1998
From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: disk drive database
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote:

> >I just went in with no problems.  Is it possible a filter has been installed
> >to reject your site(s)?
> 
> Not sites, browsers.  Sam, what browser are you using?  From Netscape
> 4.08/Mac I can't access the site, but using lynx from my server (Alpha
> running OpenBSD) I can access the site.  Second alternative is it doesn't
> like NAT/IP Masq suddenly.

I just tried and got in fine using OmniWeb 2.5 (from behind a fairly
fascist firewall that uses NAT) with the exception that Sam's
tech/noframes.html path returned 404 not found. tech/ returned the page
(with frames) just fine.

-- 
ok
r.					r e d  @  b e a r s . o r g
					===========================
					[ urs longa | vita brevis ]



From gram at cnct.com  Thu Dec 17 02:32:58 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Emulex doc archive site gone now . . .
References: <3.0.16.19981216163337.437fa63c@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <3678C1BA.ACDEAE71@cnct.com>

Uncle Roger wrote:

> As I understand it, the whole idea of having a web site is to get people to
> visit it.  Discouraging links to it would seem to be counter-productive.
> But, I guess it is a self-eliminating trait anyway.  8^)

Niven and Pournelle made the phrase a cliche in _Oath of Fealty_, a
line created by my old friend Frank Gasperyk:

	"Think of it as evolution in action."

The Web (the Net) is still evolving.  So are we.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Thu Dec 17 02:41:18 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: disk drive database
In-Reply-To: <3678A8C5.F9D79259@rain.org>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote:

> > > Well, I have http://www.blue-planet.com/tech/no-frames.html linked from
> > > the VCF links page but it is snobbishly requiring a username and password
> > > to access the site now.  Lame.  I'll be removing that link immediately.
> > 
> > I tried 3 ways:
> > 
> > http://www.blue-planet.com/tech/no-frames.html, same bot
> > http://www.blue-planet.com/tech , ditto
> > http://www.blue-planet.com, ditto.
> 
> I just went in with no problems.  Is it possible a filter has been installed
> to reject your site(s)?

I'm still having problems.  Wacky.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Thu Dec 17 02:49:59 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: disk drive database
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote:

> >I just went in with no problems.  Is it possible a filter has been installed
> >to reject your site(s)?
> 
> Not sites, browsers.  Sam, what browser are you using?  From Netscape

I'm using Communicator 4.6.  It was working fine just a few weeks ago when
I added the link to the VCF links page.  I'll try it with this default
version of IE in Win95...

Nope, still no dice.

> 4.08/Mac I can't access the site, but using lynx from my server (Alpha
> running OpenBSD) I can access the site.  Second alternative is it doesn't
> like NAT/IP Masq suddenly.

Hmmm, Lynx from the shell will take me to the main site, and to /tech, but
I get this when I try to go to /tech/no_frames.html:

   The requested URL /tech/no-frames.html was not found on this server.

I think I'll send a bitch to the webmaster.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From gram at cnct.com  Thu Dec 17 03:33:31 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: disk drive database
References: 
Message-ID: <3678CFEB.4E2E420B@cnct.com>

Sam Ismail wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Jim Strickland wrote:
> 
> > A week ago, someone was asking for hard disk params and someone else posted
> > a really good web site with all kinds of disks.  Naturally I forgot to
> > bookmark it.  Could someone repeat that URL, please?
> 
> Well, I have http://www.blue-planet.com/tech/no-frames.html linked from
> the VCF links page but it is snobbishly requiring a username and password
> to access the site now.  Lame.  I'll be removing that link immediately.

Well,  works fine from my Linux
Netscrape, though the link Sam mentions gives me a not found error.
The username/password request may result from server saturation --
wait a couple of minutes and try again. 
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Thu Dec 17 05:43:33 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Osborne 1 manual, free to good home
In-Reply-To: <199812152026.UAA22431@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <000101be29b2$79b0cce0$7df438cb@a.davie>

Really, I have no reason for keeping this, other than the horror of the
thought of it being junked.  If anyone is looking for an Osborne 1 User's
Reference Guide (dated 12/15/81) in excellent condition in original ring
binder, about 300 pages, then it's yours for the postage cost.
I'm based in Australia, and estimate surface cost about US$5, airmail about
US$15.
A



From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Thu Dec 17 05:46:37 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: 2650 floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <000201be2537$dcf49cc0$2cf438cb@a.davie>
Message-ID: <000201be29b2$e77e8aa0$7df438cb@a.davie>

Regarding my S100 2650 machine (you can see this at
http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/weird/s100.html ), not only have I found
the manual for the processor board, I found the manual for the floppy disk
subsystem.  The first line made me smile, I thought I'd share it with the
group...
"There are now at least 7 people successfully running floppy discs with
their 2650 system"
Those days are gone, gone.  Too bad.
A



From yowza at yowza.com  Thu Dec 17 06:19:31 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Emulex doc archive site gone now . . .
In-Reply-To: <3678C1BA.ACDEAE71@cnct.com>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:

> Niven and Pournelle made the phrase a cliche in _Oath of Fealty_, a
> line created by my old friend Frank Gasperyk:
> 
> 	"Think of it as evolution in action."

What year did he "create" this?  I'd guess that this phrase has been
around since Darwin's time -- the first joke that evolved from
the threory of evolution.

(As a kid in Junior High, I used to consciously make up catch phrases and
see if they'd catch.  I deluded myself into thinking that I had created
"later" or somesuch.)

ObCC: genetic algorithms.

-- Doug



From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Thu Dec 17 06:47:00 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: 2650 floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <000201be29b2$e77e8aa0$7df438cb@a.davie>
Message-ID: <000001be29bb$56d6e660$50f438cb@a.davie>

Further documentation on my 2650 system;
Have in hand a full listing of the 2650-based 8080 emulator, used on this
machine.  This emulator was used to run CP/M on the machine..
So, does anybody else have a 2650 based computer?
A



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 17 08:02:15 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Xerox
In-Reply-To: <199812162303.PAA05846@oa.ptloma.edu>
References: <009a01be2938$1825f240$23021a26@maxeskin> from "Max Eskin" at Dec 16, 98 04:07:26 pm
Message-ID: <199812171303.NAA07166@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> ::Well, file extensions is questionable. In MS-DOS and relatives, these are
> ::very severely misused. On a Macintosh, they're hidden from the user, and all
> ::nice and neat. Until you want to change something, when you regret that it's
> ::all hidden. In Linux, there are no extensions as far as the system is
> ::concerned, and I must say, I don't miss them at all.

Shure, every Unix program starts with the riddle how to read a
file, and whats in it. This is maybe one of the reasons why it
took such a long time until some level has been reached. And
why a X configuration is still some kind of lotto game.

> That was one thing that seriously irked me about Apple DOS 3.3 was the
> differentiation between Applesoft, Integer BASIC and binary files. I could
> understand text files being a separate file type, but *binaries*?

Because the structure is different - one is a Integer programm, using
the Integer Basic structures and tokens, the other the Applesoft

> The Commodore's filetypes are silly. PRG, SEQ and USR are all just sequential.
> Only REL is truly different.

Same for Apple, but there is no difference between REL and SEQ from
the viewpoint of the system sins SEQ is just a special case of REL.

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 17 08:02:15 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Language and wiered people
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19981216161400.437fa84c@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <199812171303.NAA07177@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> (I grew up in a 1/2-french-speaking, dual-piano, opera-loving, book-filled
> household.  Heck, I didn't even know there was any other kind of music
> besides opera and the various forms of classical until my mid-teens.  8^)

I know, you are a strange guy, but I didn't expect this.
Say, is there at least ONE (1) ordinary person around
on this list ?

Gruss
H.
*G*

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Thu Dec 17 07:12:07 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: CTSC BASIC Reference:  free to a good home
Message-ID: <000701be29be$d92bbd40$50f438cb@a.davie>

For just the postage cost from Australia (est. $5 surface, $15 air); the
manual itself is free.
I'll be throwing this out in a week unless there are any takers - a CTSC
BASIC Reference manual - good condition - 350 pages.  E00146-01 (Rev 5-CP)
May 1974 by Infonet, The Information Network division of Computer Sciences
Corporation.
"This book describes the INFONET BASIC language, which is part of the
Computer Sciences Teleprocessing System (CSTS)"
A



From cfandt at netsync.net  Thu Dec 17 07:44:09 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: disk drive database
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <4.1.19981217082636.00ab1990@206.231.8.2>

At 00:49 12/17/98 -0800, Sellam wrote:

>
>Hmmm, Lynx from the shell will take me to the main site, and to /tech, but
>I get this when I try to go to /tech/no_frames.html:
>
>   The requested URL /tech/no-frames.html was not found on this server.
>
>I think I'll send a bitch to the webmaster.

Careful Sam!  The webmaster may not like getting a female dog delivered to
him/her! :) :)

Anyway, I have no problem accessing anything in
http://www.blue-planet.com/tech/ while using Netscape 4.03 under windoze95.
Got a box around w/this setup? The site uses frames which I sometimes find
annoying myself.

Send a *carefully*  worded 'bitch' regarding their "no frames" access. We
don't want to p*** off the owner of *this* fine technical resource website:)

Regards,  Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/


From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au  Thu Dec 17 08:13:03 1998
From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Language and wiered people
Message-ID: <033501be29c7$5cbbe100$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>

-----Original Message-----
From: Hans Franke 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Friday, 18 December 1998 0:36
Subject: Language and wiered people


>Say, is there at least ONE (1) ordinary person around
>on this list ?


Just by being here, we announce ourselves to be technophile collectors,
with a sense of history, and a liking for unusual, oldish, sometimes very
large and
complex hardware, on which we spend considerable time and money, when you
can
get an 'ordinary' computer for a fraction of the effort.....
If we were born 30 years earlier, we'd probably have been
collectors/restorers of antique
cars or aeroplanes or steam engines instead.

In short, I doubt it....  Their are enough ordinary people in the world
to let a few be a little unique (or eccentric I suppose).

Just my 2c worth.

Cheers
Geoff Roberts
Computer Systems Manager
Saint Marks College
Port Pirie  South Australia.
My ICQ# is 1970476
Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile)
      61-8-8633-0619 (Home)
      61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct)
      61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)




From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Thu Dec 17 09:00:11 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Xerox
In-Reply-To: <199812171303.NAA07166@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 17, 98 02:03:15 pm
Message-ID: <199812171500.HAA12254@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Thu Dec 17 09:10:27 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Filetypes (was Re: Xerox)
In-Reply-To: <199812170149.RAA12395@saul10.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Dec 16, 98 05:49:54 pm
Message-ID: <199812171510.HAA18668@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From zmerch at 30below.com  Thu Dec 17 09:19:44 1998
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Language and wiered people
In-Reply-To: <199812171303.NAA07177@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
References: <3.0.16.19981216161400.437fa84c@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981217101944.00931e10@mail.30below.com>

Once upon a midnight dreary, Hans Franke had spoken clearly:
>
>> (I grew up in a 1/2-french-speaking, dual-piano, opera-loving, book-filled
>> household.  Heck, I didn't even know there was any other kind of music
>> besides opera and the various forms of classical until my mid-teens.  8^)
>
>I know, you are a strange guy, but I didn't expect this.
>Say, is there at least ONE (1) ordinary person around
>on this list ?

Define "ordinary..."

I'm *almost* bilingual as well, but not in French... I can only get slapped
with what little I know in that language.

Now in German, not only can I get slapped, but I can get a beer, too! ;-)

Something tells me if an actual "ordinary" person were to show up on this
list for very long, *that* would look weird!!! ;-)

"Merch"


From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com  Thu Dec 17 09:41:46 1998
From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: disk drive database
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981217082636.00ab1990@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Christian Fandt wrote:

> At 00:49 12/17/98 -0800, Sellam wrote:

> Send a *carefully*  worded 'bitch' regarding their "no frames" access. We
> don't want to p*** off the owner of *this* fine technical resource website:)


I vote you find the apropriate newsgroup and start a flame where some
people personally attack the owner of the site...



From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Dec 17 08:48:49 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Filetypes (was Re: Xerox)
In-Reply-To: <199812170149.RAA12395@saul10.u.washington.edu>
References: <199812170044.QAA12208@oa.ptloma.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981217084849.00e61450@pc>

At 05:49 PM 12/16/98 -0800, D. Peschel wrote:
>
>Hmm.  The Commodore OS is more powerful than I thought.  I still think the
>syntax and implementation is rather clunky.

You mean, the OS running in the disk drive, not the OS running in the
C-64.  :-)  I remember a remark from an Amiga Corp. engineer "The 1541
was the best computer Commodore ever made" when I asked him why I found
several mangled / disassembled 1541s in the dumpster behind Amiga Corp.
when it was shut down...

Amiga trivia time: I and a friend liberated the Amiga Corp. sign from
the lawn, too.  It lived in his garage in San Jose for a while, then
moved to Topeka, and then back to Sacramento.

- John



From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Dec 17 08:55:35 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: OT: Learning new words (was RE: "Single instance" machines)
In-Reply-To: <199812170340.VAA27933@garcon.laidbak.com>
References: <981216194548.2f00081a@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981217085535.00f74280@pc>

At 09:43 PM 12/16/98 -0600, Paul Braun wrote:
>>>Instead of saying "wow, excellent!", they
>> >convinced him that the correct thing to say was "most spannerlike!"
>> 
>> Six words: "My hovercraft is full of eels"
>
>How about "The wastepaper basket is yellow."

I hope everyone knows about .

There's also the Transmorgrafier at

which runs your text through a series of translations, but it appears to be
broken.  Babel chat, an interactive auto-translated chat room, is also down.

- John



From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Dec 17 09:14:53 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Emulex doc archive site gone now . . .
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19981216163337.437fa63c@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981217091453.00f9f2f0@pc>

At 05:03 PM 12/16/98 -0800, Uncle Roger wrote:
>
>I seem to remember a lawsuit not too long ago wherein Ticketmaster sued
>Microsoft (I think) because MS had put a link to TM's web site on their
>Sidewalk site.  Seemed silly then, and seems silly now. 

There have been other cases where sites were "framing" content from
other people's sites - imagine a super-news site that gave you the
impression all the content was their own, but that only embedded
(via links) content made by others, side-stepping their menus
and banners, etc.  Today's relevant bit from TBTF below.

- John

..How much trouble can you get into by linking?

  Current case law on downloading or linking copyrighted material

    This National Law Journal article [8] runs through existing case law
    relating to fair use, linking, framing, and copying Net content, for
    example for use on an intranet. Of particular interest is the dis-
    cussion of "deep links": links directly to content buried within a
    site, bypassing its top page (which presumably carries advertising).
    TBTF is strongly biased to use such "rifle-shot" links. The author
    cites the case of TicketMaster Corp. v. Microsoft Corp.-- and mad-
    deningly does not report the actual outcome -- in concluding

      > With respect to the company's use of hyperlinks on its
      > intranet, legal scholarship on this issue... suggests that
      > hyperlinks will not give rise to liability if the linked
      > sites' home pages are the destinations. Liability appears
      > likely to attach only if deep links are used.

    Thanks to Monty Solomon for the NLJ cite.

    [8]
http://www.ljx.com/cgi-bin/f_cat?prod/ljextra/data/texts/1998_1207_56.html


S o u r c e s

> For a complete list of TBTF's (mostly email) sources, see
    http://tbtf.com/sources.html .
    ________________________________________________________________________

    TBTF home and archive at http://tbtf.com/ . To subscribe send the
    message "subscribe" to tbtf-request@world.std.com. TBTF is Copy-
    right 1994-1998 by Keith Dawson, . Commercial
    use prohibited. For non-commercial purposes please forward, post,
    and link as you see fit.
    _______________________________________________
    Keith Dawson               dawson@world.std.com
    Layer of ash separates morning and evening milk.



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 17 11:41:00 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Language and wiered people
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981217101944.00931e10@mail.30below.com>
References: <199812171303.NAA07177@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <199812171642.QAA11170@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> Now in German, not only can I get slapped, but I can get a beer, too! ;-)

If there is any problem, I'm willing to help you order two Mass :)

Gruss
H.

--
Traue keinem Menschen der 5 Tage blutet und immer noch nicht tod ist.


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 17 11:50:04 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Xerox
In-Reply-To: <199812171500.HAA12254@oa.ptloma.edu>
References: <199812171303.NAA07166@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 17, 98 02:03:15 pm
Message-ID: <199812171651.QAA12087@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> ::Same for Apple, but there is no difference between REL and SEQ from
> ::the viewpoint of the system sins SEQ is just a special case of REL.

> Are you sure? RELative files have both a side sector stream and the
> data stream (the side sector stream used for storing record indexing
> information of records in the data stream). They're handled by different
> portions of the 1541 ROM, so I'm pretty sure one is not a subtype of the
> other.

But it can be seen as one. Apple DOS stores files thru a block
list, where a bit is set for every allocated block within the
'file address space'. So if I open a random text file and put
a 128 Byte record into position 1000, only two blocks are written
onto the disk. THis structure is the same for sequential written
files - just there are no unallocated blocks.

Pleas correct me if my memory regarding CBM files (or Apple files)
has some holes - I'm about to develop a influenza right now.

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 17 12:02:43 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Luftschiffe (was:ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s)
In-Reply-To: <3678A3F9.9A4E6C35@cnct.com>
Message-ID: <199812171703.RAA13444@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > NASA sold (permanently loaned?) several acres of land in Mountain View to
> > The Computer Museum History Center, so they will be gearing up to finally
> > build a permanent museum that will open sometime in the middle of the next
> > decade.  It should be a pretty awesome facility once its all complete.

> As much as I love old computers, I'd rather see that hangar restored
> for its original purpose.  I fell in love with airships _long_ before

Airships are (maybe) the single greatest thing to have, see,
touch, whatever. I love them - real ones, Zeppelin stlye, not
these baloons with engines - But they are no more since almost
50 years (the NT doesn't count in my opinion, since it is a
kind of a bastard - but still the most impessive I have seen
until today) - I whish I could have lives in the 30's - there
are a lot of old photographs with Zeppelin ships over Munich
(and of course also almost any other German city).

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From sethm at loomcom.com  Thu Dec 17 11:31:50 1998
From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Language and wiered people
In-Reply-To: <199812171303.NAA07177@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 17, 98 02:03:15 pm
Message-ID: <199812171731.JAA02919@loomcom.com>

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From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Thu Dec 17 11:34:26 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: disk drive database
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 12/17/98 7:42:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,
cfandt@netsync.net writes:

<< 
 Anyway, I have no problem accessing anything in
 http://www.blue-planet.com/tech/ while using Netscape 4.03 under windoze95.
 Got a box around w/this setup? The site uses frames which I sometimes find
 annoying myself.
 
 Send a *carefully*  worded 'bitch' regarding their "no frames" access. We
 don't want to p*** off the owner of *this* fine technical resource website:)
 
 Regards,  Chris >>


grrr, i cannot get in either from amerika offline or from work using netscape
4.05


From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Thu Dec 17 11:57:09 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Xerox
In-Reply-To: <199812171651.QAA12087@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 17, 98 05:51:04 pm
Message-ID: <199812171757.JAA19698@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Thu Dec 17 11:58:09 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Language and wiered people
In-Reply-To: <199812171731.JAA02919@loomcom.com> from "Seth J. Morabito" at Dec 17, 98 09:31:50 am
Message-ID: <199812171758.JAA12376@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From dburrows at netpath.net  Thu Dec 17 11:58:28 1998
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: disk drive database
Message-ID: <001201be29e6$e2fe0df0$bf281bce@p166>

I just tried with Netscape 4.04 and IE4.0 ver 4.72 Both under NT 4  Works
fine.
Dan
><<
> Anyway, I have no problem accessing anything in
> http://www.blue-planet.com/tech/ while using Netscape 4.03 under
windoze95.
> Got a box around w/this setup? The site uses frames which I sometimes find
> annoying myself.
>
> Send a *carefully*  worded 'bitch' regarding their "no frames" access. We
> don't want to p*** off the owner of *this* fine technical resource
website:)
>
> Regards,  Chris >>
>
>
>grrr, i cannot get in either from amerika offline or from work using
netscape
>4.05
>



From dpeschel at u.washington.edu  Thu Dec 17 12:12:29 1998
From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: OT: Learning new words (was RE: "Single instance" machines)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981217085535.00f74280@pc> from "John Foust" at Dec 17, 98 08:55:35 am
Message-ID: <199812171812.KAA14665@saul5.u.washington.edu>

> I hope everyone knows about .

This is really getting off-topic.  No one seems to care yet, but it's still
worth mentioning.

I really replied to ask if this is actual German (I have a feeling it's not).

	Wenn ist das Nunstück git und Slotermeyer?  Ja!
	...Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!

It's Monty Python's worst joke in the world.  See

	http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/

There was a link from the Plan 9 site to the Monty Python script itself
(with some other worst jokes, including the Germans' attempts to retaliate
-- "Two peanuts were walking down the road..." -- but I'm not sure if the
link is still there.  But you can read about a cool and small (though not
free) OS!

-- Derek


From blakeman at creative-net.net  Thu Dec 17 12:16:00 1998
From: blakeman at creative-net.net (Alice Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: FSOT: PS/2 50 and 50Z units
Message-ID: <36794A5E.6A87BCE8@creative-net.net>

I have some PS/2 model 50Z's to move QUICK, and very reasonable. These
are 286-10 processor units with
     ram, hard drive, etc. These are the main units only without
monitor, mouse or keyboard. The units are listed as
     follows with specs and condition:

     1) 50Z, overhauled, 2 mb ram, 30mb HD - $14 plus shipping
     2) 50Z, overhauled, 2 mb ram, 30mb HD - $14 plus shipping
     3) 50Z, overhauled, 1 mb ram, 30mb HD - $12 plus shipping
     4) 50Z, overhauled, 1 mb ram, 30mb HD - $12 plus shipping

     Both 1 and 2 for $25 plus shipping. Both 3 and 4 for $20 plus
shipping.

     I also have 3 other units with at least 1 mb memory but need
     work on the hard drives, or hard drive replacements. PS/2 drivs
     can be found all over cheaply up to 120mb. I need either $7 each
     for these working-but-need-work units (plus shipping) or all three
     for $15 plus shipping.

     Payment by money order only, US 48 states only please. Contact
     me by direct email if interested - I need these out very soon.

     Trades? Not for shipping but *possibly* for common PC items
     such as cdrom drives, sound boards, simm's in 30 and 72 pin,
     higher speed (28.8k and up) internal and external modems, etc.
     Should a trade occur, the buyer will pay shipping for the PS/2
     units (minus the shipping of the trade item).

     I live in central KY near Louisville/Ft. Knox in zip 40144 in
     case anyone is curious. Anyone close can arrange for pickup with
     me to avoid shipping.

     Save shipping - three units should be able to go in one box for
     a lot less than one unit each in three cartons.

     As I said, all are complete and functional, some need work.



From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Thu Dec 17 12:18:04 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: FSOT: PS/2 50 and 50Z Units
Message-ID: <36794ADB.E1344ABD@bigfoot.com>

(Sorry about the previously mis-addressed message)

I have some PS/2 model 50Z's to move QUICK, and very reasonable. These
are 286-10 processor units with
     ram, hard drive, etc. These are the main units only without
monitor, mouse or keyboard. The units are listed as
     follows with specs and condition:

     1) 50Z, overhauled, 2 mb ram, 30mb HD - $14 plus shipping
     2) 50Z, overhauled, 2 mb ram, 30mb HD - $14 plus shipping
     3) 50Z, overhauled, 1 mb ram, 30mb HD - $12 plus shipping
     4) 50Z, overhauled, 1 mb ram, 30mb HD - $12 plus shipping

     Both 1 and 2 for $25 plus shipping. Both 3 and 4 for $20 plus
shipping.

     I also have 3 other units with at least 1 mb memory but need
     work on the hard drives, or hard drive replacements. PS/2 drivs
     can be found all over cheaply up to 120mb. I need either $7 each
     for these working-but-need-work units (plus shipping) or all three
     for $15 plus shipping.

     Payment by money order only, US 48 states only please. Contact
     me by direct email if interested - I need these out very soon.

     Trades? Not for shipping but *possibly* for common PC items
     such as cdrom drives, sound boards, simm's in 30 and 72 pin,
     higher speed (28.8k and up) internal and external modems, etc.
     Should a trade occur, the buyer will pay shipping for the PS/2
     units (minus the shipping of the trade item).

     I live in central KY near Louisville/Ft. Knox in zip 40144 in
     case anyone is curious. Anyone close can arrange for pickup with
     me to avoid shipping.

     Save shipping - three units should be able to go in one box for
     a lot less than one unit each in three cartons.

     As I said, all are complete and functional, some need work.



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Thu Dec 17 12:19:42 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Filetypes (was Re: Xerox)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981217084849.00e61450@pc>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, John Foust wrote:

> Amiga trivia time: I and a friend liberated the Amiga Corp. sign from
> the lawn, too.  It lived in his garage in San Jose for a while, then
> moved to Topeka, and then back to Sacramento.

Oooh, cool!  Any chance of this being exhibited at VCF 3.0?

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Thu Dec 17 12:26:13 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Xerox
In-Reply-To: <199812171651.QAA12087@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Hans Franke wrote:

> But it can be seen as one. Apple DOS stores files thru a block
> list, where a bit is set for every allocated block within the
> 'file address space'. So if I open a random text file and put
> a 128 Byte record into position 1000, only two blocks are written
> onto the disk. THis structure is the same for sequential written
> files - just there are no unallocated blocks.
> 
> Pleas correct me if my memory regarding CBM files (or Apple files)
> has some holes - I'm about to develop a influenza right now.

I think your memory has some holes (I knew that anyway).  As far as I
remember, with a random access text file, Apple DOS will write 1000 * 128
(128,000) bytes of zeroes before it lays down your 128 bytes, thereby
creating a large, mostly empty file.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Dec 17 12:41:14 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Filetypes (was Re: Xerox)
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.5.32.19981217084849.00e61450@pc>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981217124114.00e7d990@pc>

At 10:19 AM 12/17/98 -0800, Sam Ismail wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, John Foust wrote:
>
>> Amiga trivia time: I and a friend liberated the Amiga Corp. sign from
>> the lawn, too.  It lived in his garage in San Jose for a while, then
>> moved to Topeka, and then back to Sacramento.
>
>Oooh, cool!  Any chance of this being exhibited at VCF 3.0?

Offhand, I'd guess it's at  today.

- John



From dpeschel at u.washington.edu  Thu Dec 17 12:48:31 1998
From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Xerox
In-Reply-To:  from "Sam Ismail" at Dec 17, 98 10:26:13 am
Message-ID: <199812171848.KAA16675@saul5.u.washington.edu>

> I think your memory has some holes (I knew that anyway).  As far as I
> remember, with a random access text file, Apple DOS will write 1000 * 128
> (128,000) bytes of zeroes before it lays down your 128 bytes, thereby
> creating a large, mostly empty file.

I don't think that's true -- it's possible to create a file with no sectors
corresponding to certain parts.

There was a serious bug involving APPENDing to random-access files (i.e., it
didn't work).  Apple came up with some patches.  I don't know how they work,
but I doubt they solved the problem since the information DOS needed (the
size of the file in records, or the last byte in a record, or something) just
wasn't there.  At least I think that's the story.  ProDOS didn't have that
problem because it kept enough info.

Doesn't that also point to the ability to have holes in files?

Later I'll dig out _Beneath Apple DOS_ and see what it says.

-- Derek



From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com  Thu Dec 17 12:56:08 1998
From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Filetypes (was Re: Xerox)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981217124114.00e7d990@pc>
Message-ID: <13412542442.8.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>

[Liberated Amiga Corp. sign]

Me and a friend almost liberated a DIGITAL sign from the Field Service
office but they beat us to it.  My mother liberated a stop sign once though-
she got in loads of trouble, but she still has the sign :)
-------


From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Dec 17 13:29:33 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: 2650 floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <000001be29bb$56d6e660$50f438cb@a.davie>
	(adavie@mad.scientist.com)
References: <000001be29bb$56d6e660$50f438cb@a.davie>
Message-ID: <19981217192933.7342.qmail@brouhaha.com>

"Andrew Davie"  wrote:
> Have in hand a full listing of the 2650-based 8080 emulator, used on this
> machine.  This emulator was used to run CP/M on the machine..
> So, does anybody else have a 2650 based computer?

No, but I've got a 2650 simulator in C.  Maybe I can compile that to run
on my 8080, and run the 8080 simulator on it, and boot CP/M *really* slowly.

Eric


From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Dec 17 13:31:42 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Language and wiered people
In-Reply-To: <199812171303.NAA07177@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
	(Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de)
References: <199812171303.NAA07177@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <19981217193142.7356.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Hans wrote:
> I know, you are a strange guy, but I didn't expect this.
> Say, is there at least ONE (1) ordinary person around
> on this list ?

Entire crowd in unison, repeating
what Brian has told them:		Yes, we're all different!

One small voice from the crowd:		I'm not!

[Monty Python's Life of Brian]



From william at ans.net  Thu Dec 17 13:40:06 1998
From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Modem tones over television or radio
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> > Does anyone remember any pre-BBS-era, pre-Internet attempts to send
> > modem tones over US radio or television programming?
> 
> I've got two words for you, too:
> 
> Packet Radio.

Packet Radio??!?!! Think back, man - the U.S. Navy was doing this in the
1930s...

William Donzelli
william@ans.net




From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Dec 17 13:47:36 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:19 2005
Subject: Xerox
In-Reply-To: 
	(message from Sam Ismail on Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:26:13 -0800 (PST))
References: 
Message-ID: <19981217194736.7474.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Sam Ismail  replied to Hans' comments about
Apple DOS:

> I think your memory has some holes (I knew that anyway).  As far as I
> remember, with a random access text file, Apple DOS will write 1000 * 128
> (128,000) bytes of zeroes before it lays down your 128 bytes, thereby
> creating a large, mostly empty file.

No, Apple DOS is in fact clever enough to leave holes.  They will read as
zeros, but are not actually allocated.  This behavior is documented in
the DOS manual.  You can thereby create a file that is "larger" than 143K,
and a naive copy program won't be able to copy it to another floppy.
(I'm not sure whether FID handles this properly or not.)

However, I'm not sure that they retained this capability in SOS, ProDOS,
and GS/OS.

Aside from the kludgey way that Apple DOS is interfaced to BASIC (because
neither Integer BASIC nor AppleSoft BASIC had any proper hooks to add
statement and functions in RAM), Apple DOS was actually quite well designed
for the time.  Paul Laughton did a commendable job, especially given the
amazingly short period of time he was given to write it.  The story is on
his web site:

	http://www.laughton.com/Apple/Apple.html

For those of you that haven't read "Beneath Apple DOS", I'll point out
that DOS actually consisted of three pieces:

1.  RWTS - Read/Write Track & Sector.  Written by Woz, this was the lowest
	   layer.  Roughly equivalent to INT 13 in a PC clone BIOS.

2.  FMS -  file manager.  The file system.  Provides a fairly clean API
           that was intended to be available to applications, but Apple chose
           not to release documentation on it :-(  Fortunately it is
	   described in Beneath Apple DOS, but unfortunately that didn't
	   happen until DOS was fairly long in the tooth.

3.  (not sure of the name) - BASIC interface (although it could be used
           from other languages).  This part intercepted the COUT vector
	   (equivalent to standard output), watched for lines beginning
	   with Control-D, and interpreted them as DOS commands.  It also
	   used the COUT and KSWL (standard input) vectors for the file
	   I/O.  This part of DOS is the most commonly criticized, since
	   it is the only way that most users and programmers were able
	   to access files.

Cheers,
Eric


From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Thu Dec 17 14:27:55 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: OT: Learning new words (was RE: "Single instance" machines)
In-Reply-To: <199812171812.KAA14665@saul5.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Dec 17, 98 10:12:29 am
Message-ID: <199812172027.MAA09158@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From Innfogra at aol.com  Thu Dec 17 14:25:13 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit - Philips?
Message-ID: <117bf0e3.367968a9@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/16/98 7:04:19 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes:

> 
>  You're right. It's a logic trainer and not a computer (well, unless you 
>  can afford a few hundred modules...) But it's an interesting toy.
>  
Yes, we set it up at the whse sales to entertain the children who came with
the adults.
Paxton


From roblwill at usaor.net  Thu Dec 17 17:16:27 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: disk drive database
Message-ID: <01be2a13$45fce760$879ba6d1@the-general>

>
>I just went in with no problems.  Is it possible a filter has been
installed
>to reject your site(s)?
>
What browser were you using?  I was using IE.  It's possible that there's
something messed up that makes it not work with Netscape.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From roblwill at usaor.net  Thu Dec 17 17:25:52 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: disk drive database
Message-ID: <01be2a14$9646fde0$879ba6d1@the-general>

I think a few words will sum up the whole situation: U/B error (User/Browser
error).

I can log on to the site fine with various versions of IE from 1.x to 4.0,
Netscape Navigator 3.0, NetTamer (text - 2400 modem), Opera, and Mosaic (Mac
Portable, 2400 modem).  Granted, frames doesn't work in the earlier versions
of IE and in NetTamer, but I can successfully log onto the site with no
username/password prompt.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318


-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Ismail 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 12:50 AM
Subject: Re: disk drive database


>On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote:
>
>> >I just went in with no problems.  Is it possible a filter has been
installed
>> >to reject your site(s)?
>>
>> Not sites, browsers.  Sam, what browser are you using?  From Netscape
>
>I'm using Communicator 4.6.  It was working fine just a few weeks ago when
>I added the link to the VCF links page.  I'll try it with this default
>version of IE in Win95...
>
>Nope, still no dice.
>
>> 4.08/Mac I can't access the site, but using lynx from my server (Alpha
>> running OpenBSD) I can access the site.  Second alternative is it doesn't
>> like NAT/IP Masq suddenly.
>
>Hmmm, Lynx from the shell will take me to the main site, and to /tech, but
>I get this when I try to go to /tech/no_frames.html:
>
>   The requested URL /tech/no-frames.html was not found on this server.
>
>I think I'll send a bitch to the webmaster.
>
>Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail:
dastar@siconic.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>Always being hassled by the man.
>
>                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
>                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
>                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]
>
>



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Thu Dec 17 14:51:05 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: disk drive database
In-Reply-To: <01be2a14$9646fde0$879ba6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote:

> I think a few words will sum up the whole situation: U/B error (User/Browser
> error).

That's a silly assumption, young Jason.  I still can't access the site
from ANY browser.  I think it depends on where you're coming from, or how
you are getting there.  I still haven't heard back from the webmaster
regarding my query.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dcoward at pressstart.com  Thu Dec 17 15:01:08 1998
From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: the Canonical List of Commodore Products
Message-ID: <19981217125417.af651d3c.in@mail.pressstart.com>

Jim Brain said:
>Calculator Series:
>* 202           electric, 1 digit display with slider indiciator, 
>                black case, white keypad, black,white,red keys SN B-63768
 WW
>* 208           mechanical tape calc with red/black ribbon.
 MI
>*               Blue LEDs, basic math, cream color, blue/red butons.
 TA
>*               Scientific calc, made in England, 44 extra keys
 BD
>* 401           paper readout, darkgreen/bluegreen
 DV

There are a few calculators that I didn't see on your list:
301
X-24
SR-6120R
F4146R
C112
US*5M
US*10
see http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum/mccommod.htm

And maybe you can help me with information on a PET 2001
I have. It has the chicklet keyboard and built-in cassette
deck, but in a redesigned case and a Friden name plate on
the bottom (Yes, I know they were out of business by 1977).
What do you know about re-badged PETs?


=========================================
Doug Coward	           
Press Start Inc.          
Sunnyvale,CA    
=========================================


From roblwill at usaor.net  Thu Dec 17 17:58:26 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: disk drive database
Message-ID: <01be2a19$2353dc40$879ba6d1@the-general>

It may possibly be that the server that you're connecting to (ISP) is having
some problems.

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Ismail 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: disk drive database


>On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote:
>
>> I think a few words will sum up the whole situation: U/B error
(User/Browser
>> error).
>
>That's a silly assumption, young Jason.  I still can't access the site
>from ANY browser.  I think it depends on where you're coming from, or how
>you are getting there.  I still haven't heard back from the webmaster
>regarding my query.
>
>Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail:
dastar@siconic.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>Always being hassled by the man.
>
>                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
>                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
>                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]
>
>



From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Dec 17 15:08:41 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Digital Group system
Message-ID: <19981217210841.8091.qmail@brouhaha.com>

My Digital Group system has arrived.  I haven't had a chance to do anything
with it yet, but it looks nice and was very well packaged.  As expected, I
received no documentation or software.  Sam has offered to let me use the
documentation and software he will be getting with his system, and that
will be very helpful.

However, my system has the Phideck digital cassette drives rather than
disk drives, so I need to get either:

	PHIMON or other software that uses the Phidecks

or

	a Digital Group disk controller

Of course, any other Digital Group (or Peripheral Vision) goodies that
might be available for sale or trade would interest me as well.

I've updated my Digital Group web page a bit more; I've started scanning
their early advertisments.  One of my friends in Colorado has a fairly
complete set of their catalogs, so I should be able to get them on line
as well.

http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/the_digital_group/

Cheers,
Eric


From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Thu Dec 17 15:20:09 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: dec 3100 100mb scsi
Message-ID: <199812172120.OAA24029@calico.litterbox.com>

Hey gang.  Thought you would want to know that Alltronics has 5 dec 3100
100mb 3.5 inch half height drives for sale for 24.95 each.  They had 7, but
I just bought 2.  One for a Mac SE30, one which will wind up either in the
vaxstation Tim Shoppa is putting together for me, or in my Apple 2 GS, which
in turn will donate its disk to the aforementioned vax.  (the GS's disk is 
230 megs. Far more than is really useful for it.)
-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From erd at infinet.com  Thu Dec 17 15:40:51 1998
From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: dec 3100 100mb scsi
In-Reply-To: <199812172120.OAA24029@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Dec 17, 98 02:20:09 pm
Message-ID: <199812172140.QAA11474@user2.infinet.com>

> 
> Hey gang.  Thought you would want to know that Alltronics has 5 dec 3100
> 100mb 3.5 inch half height drives for sale for 24.95 each.  They had 7, but
> I just bought 2.  One for a Mac SE30, one which will wind up either in the
> vaxstation Tim Shoppa is putting together for me, or in my Apple 2 GS, which
> in turn will donate its disk to the aforementioned vax.  (the GS's disk is 
> 230 megs. Far more than is really useful for it.)

If this is an RZ23, you will have to either send it a spin-up command
everytime you power it on (the Adaptec 1542C can do this) or locate a utility
to rewrite a bit on an embedded command page.  I have an RZ23 in an Amiga 3000.
It does not spin up until I run a program called "LateSCSIMounter".

Other than that, it's an OK drive.

-ethan




From roblwill at usaor.net  Thu Dec 17 18:48:41 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Apple 2 GS cartridge drive (was: re: dec 3100 100mb scsi)
Message-ID: <01be2a20$28190140$879ba6d1@the-general>

The Apple 2 GS could have a hard drive in it?  I never knew that.  My school
used to have about 10 of them, and they all ran off of quad-floppy drives,
and some sort of cartridge drive that was used to transfer files to a PC
(You would just pull the cartridge from the Apple, bit it in the drive
connected to the IBM, and run whatever you wanted.  I can't remember much
about it (about 6 yrs ago).  Does anyone have any info on a drive like this?
It was a black drive that was about the size of a Disk ][, had about a 3/4"
cable running to the back of the computer, and a grounded power cord.  The
drive itself weighed about 5-10 lbs, and the cartridge weighed about 2 lbs
(it was metal).
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Strickland 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 1:20 PM
Subject: dec 3100 100mb scsi


>Hey gang.  Thought you would want to know that Alltronics has 5 dec 3100
>100mb 3.5 inch half height drives for sale for 24.95 each.  They had 7, but
>I just bought 2.  One for a Mac SE30, one which will wind up either in the
>vaxstation Tim Shoppa is putting together for me, or in my Apple 2 GS,
which
>in turn will donate its disk to the aforementioned vax.  (the GS's disk is
>230 megs. Far more than is really useful for it.)
>--
>Jim Strickland
>jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>



From william at ans.net  Thu Dec 17 16:00:22 1998
From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Computer paint jobs (was Re: SOL feeding frenzy?)
In-Reply-To: <199812160419.WAA13210@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com>
Message-ID: 

> The first was on a 360/65 MP (multiprocessor) system at Wisconsin DOT.
> Standard IBM
> colors for that machine was blue.  But DOT managed to convince IBM to make
> a red one.  The
> cable duct between the CPU's was sexy black.  It was one very nice looking
> system ( and
> lots of lights!).
 
Quite a few Big Blues were not blue. Blue was the standard color, but
red, green, white, and yellow (maybe others, too) were available options.

William Donzelli
william@ans.net 


 



From dpeschel at u.washington.edu  Thu Dec 17 16:00:33 1998
From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit - Philips?
In-Reply-To: <117bf0e3.367968a9@aol.com> from "Innfogra@aol.com" at Dec 17, 98 03:25:13 pm
Message-ID: <199812172200.OAA31203@saul5.u.washington.edu>

> Yes, we set it up at the whse sales to entertain the children who came with
> the adults.

Actually, I think I would be entertained by a toy like at (at least
briefly).  I certainly enjoyed seeing the Digicomp I replica from the last
VCF, and I wish it had been working.

Really, I wish someone would make more computer and logic toys.  (If they
were actual computers that would be nice too -- none of the toys I've seen
have full Turing-machine power).

-- Derek


From dpeschel at u.washington.edu  Thu Dec 17 16:03:26 1998
From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: OT: Learning new words (was RE: "Single instance" machines)
In-Reply-To: <199812172027.MAA09158@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Dec 17, 98 12:27:55 pm
Message-ID: <199812172203.OAA06252@saul5.u.washington.edu>

> But the second funniest is still:
> 
> 	"My dog's got no nose!"
> 	"How does he smell?"
> 	"Awful!"

Is that in the full script?  Is the script still accessible from the Plan 9
web page?

-- Derek


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 17 12:20:03 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To:  from "Doug Yowza" at Dec 16, 98 09:19:07 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 17 12:41:56 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Language and wiered people
In-Reply-To: <199812171303.NAA07177@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 17, 98 02:03:15 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 17 12:45:32 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Language and wiered people
In-Reply-To: <033501be29c7$5cbbe100$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> from "Geoff Roberts" at Dec 18, 98 00:43:03 am
Message-ID: 

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From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Thu Dec 17 16:22:14 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Apple 2 GS cartridge drive (was: re: dec 3100 100mb scsi)
In-Reply-To: <01be2a20$28190140$879ba6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Dec 17, 1998 04:48:41 PM
Message-ID: <199812172222.PAA24286@calico.litterbox.com>

> The Apple 2 GS could have a hard drive in it?  I never knew that.  My school
> used to have about 10 of them, and they all ran off of quad-floppy drives,
> and some sort of cartridge drive that was used to transfer files to a PC
> (You would just pull the cartridge from the Apple, bit it in the drive
> connected to the IBM, and run whatever you wanted.  I can't remember much
> about it (about 6 yrs ago).  Does anyone have any info on a drive like this?
> It was a black drive that was about the size of a Disk ][, had about a 3/4"
> cable running to the back of the computer, and a grounded power cord.  The
> drive itself weighed about 5-10 lbs, and the cartridge weighed about 2 lbs
> (it was metal).
> --
>                  -Jason Willgruber
>                (roblwill@usaor.net)
>                   ICQ#: 1730318
> 

Sounds like a 44 meg syquest cart to me.  Apple made SCSI interfaces for the
apple2 series so it would be consistant.  My GS has a ramfast SCSI drive
controller and an external hard disk as well as a CDROM.  My apple2 E 
is floppy based, although since I'm finding myself with a superabundance
of little dinky scsi drives I may splurge and get a controller for it too.

As far as the GS having a hard disk, you can't really unleash a GS's full 
potential without one and about 4 megs of ram to go with it.  THEN you can
run GSOS 6.0.1, the final version of GSOS, which is very like Mac system 6.
-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Thu Dec 17 16:34:27 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: OT: Learning new words (was RE: "Single instance" machines)
In-Reply-To: <199812172203.OAA06252@saul5.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Dec 17, 98 02:03:26 pm
Message-ID: <199812172234.OAA12626@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Thu Dec 17 16:30:47 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Language and wiered people
In-Reply-To:  from "Tony Duell" at Dec 17, 1998 06:45:32 PM
Message-ID: <199812172230.PAA24349@calico.litterbox.com>

> 
> > If we were born 30 years earlier, we'd probably have been
> > collectors/restorers of antique
> > cars or aeroplanes or steam engines instead.
> 
> What do you mean 'would have been' ? 
> 
> You mean there are people here who _don't_ love other forms of ancient 
> machinery? I am (seriously) very supprised - I've never met a classic 
> computer enthusiast face-to-face who doesn't also love steam engines or 
> vintage cars, or antique clocks/watches or old cameras, or something like 
> that (those are all _inclusive_ ORs, of course). 
> 
> -tony
> 
Or Radios or phones... :)  *sigh*  To get into steam engines I really REALLY
need a lathe. :)

-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From yowza at yowza.com  Thu Dec 17 16:54:44 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit - Philips?
In-Reply-To: <199812172200.OAA31203@saul5.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, D. Peschel wrote:

> Really, I wish someone would make more computer and logic toys.  (If they
> were actual computers that would be nice too -- none of the toys I've seen
> have full Turing-machine power).

None of the *computers* I've seen have full Turing-machine power.  It's
that damn infinite tape on the Turing machine that makes it such a
kick-butt machine :-)

Many of the early toy/personal/home computers I know of have already been
mentioned here, but there's one in particular that hasn't and will blow
you away with both it's "specs" and the effect it had on computing as we
know it today.

[More organ music.  Fade to black again.]

-- Doug





From jrkeys at concentric.net  Thu Dec 17 16:56:36 1998
From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Osborne 1 manual, free to good home
In-Reply-To: <000101be29b2$79b0cce0$7df438cb@a.davie>
Message-ID: <000001be2a10$7fd8a3a0$25afadce@5x86jk>

I will take it if not taken yet email me at jrkeys@concentric.net with your
address for the money order to be mailed to.  John

> -----Original Message-----
> From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu
> [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Andrew Davie
> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 5:44 AM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Osborne 1 manual, free to good home
>
>
> Really, I have no reason for keeping this, other than the horror of the
> thought of it being junked.  If anyone is looking for an Osborne 1 User's
> Reference Guide (dated 12/15/81) in excellent condition in original ring
> binder, about 300 pages, then it's yours for the postage cost.
> I'm based in Australia, and estimate surface cost about US$5,
> airmail about
> US$15.
> A
>
>



From gram at cnct.com  Thu Dec 17 17:03:23 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Luftschiffe (was:ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s)
References: <199812171703.RAA13444@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <36798DBB.C7CB4BCF@cnct.com>

Yes, this is pretty much off topic, but as I said before,
airships were the immediate cause of my getting involved with
computers back in the late 70s when I was fresh out of the
USAF and sick and tired of heavier-than-air equipment.

Hans Franke wrote:
> 
> > > NASA sold (permanently loaned?) several acres of land in Mountain View to
> > > The Computer Museum History Center, so they will be gearing up to finally
> > > build a permanent museum that will open sometime in the middle of the next
> > > decade.  It should be a pretty awesome facility once its all complete.
> 
> > As much as I love old computers, I'd rather see that hangar restored
> > for its original purpose.  I fell in love with airships _long_ before
> 
> Airships are (maybe) the single greatest thing to have, see,
> touch, whatever. I love them - real ones, Zeppelin stlye, not
> these baloons with engines - But they are no more since almost
> 50 years (the NT doesn't count in my opinion, since it is a
> kind of a bastard - but still the most impessive I have seen
> until today) - I whish I could have lives in the 30's - there
> are a lot of old photographs with Zeppelin ships over Munich
> (and of course also almost any other German city).

Remember, Hans, there were more than a few drawbacks to living
where you are in the 1930s -- and other than DELAG employees, 
access to the big airships was pretty much limited to the idle
rich, tickets were expensive.

With technologies developed since the 1930s, the big ships could be
practical again.  Aside from the use of helium rather than hydrogen
(whatever the immediate cause, static electricity or sabotage or
whatever, the Hindenberg burned because the US government forbade
the sale of helium to Germany), there have been lots of things
developed since 1937 to make airships that would be better by far
than they were, many of them spinoffs of the heavier-than-air
industry.  Stronger, lighter materials both for structure and
envelopes.  Electronics and instrumentation (considering how many
ships were destroyed by storms, such as two of the four ships the US
Navy had, just radar is a big help, but things like computerized
trim control and GPS come to mind). Lots of new art on aerodynamic
design even at low speed, lots of that from the automotive industry.
I could build a ship four times the strength and less than half the
tare weight of the Hindenberg from the Hindenberg's blueprints
today, but that wouldn't take into account new structural concepts
that would improve things far more.

That reminds me, I've got to resubscribe to the LTA mailing lists
and see what's been going on lately.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From dpeschel at u.washington.edu  Thu Dec 17 17:02:20 1998
From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit - Philips?
In-Reply-To:  from "Doug Yowza" at Dec 17, 98 04:54:44 pm
Message-ID: <199812172302.PAA26868@saul2.u.washington.edu>

> None of the *computers* I've seen have full Turing-machine power.  It's
> that damn infinite tape on the Turing machine that makes it such a
> kick-butt machine :-)

Well, OK, you're right.  None of the toys I've seen have been actual modern
von Neumann machines as we know them.  There.  Is that general enoguh for
you?  Seriously, I'm still interested in building a mechanical "real
computer".

> Many of the early toy/personal/home computers I know of have already been
> mentioned here, but there's one in particular that hasn't and will blow
> you away with both it's "specs" and the effect it had on computing as we
> know it today.
> 
> [More organ music.  Fade to black again.]

Are you in cahoots with Sam "see the VCF web page" Ismail?

-- Derek


From yowza at yowza.com  Thu Dec 17 17:33:11 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit - Philips?
In-Reply-To: <199812172302.PAA26868@saul2.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, D. Peschel wrote:

> Well, OK, you're right.  None of the toys I've seen have been actual modern
> von Neumann machines as we know them.  There.  Is that general enoguh for
> you?  Seriously, I'm still interested in building a mechanical "real
> computer".

A mechanical von Neumann machine?  I'm not sure I know of any machine, toy
or not, that can claim that (and that's mostly due to my ignorance of the
early relay-based machines, probably). But there are certainly electronic
von Neumann toys, such as the Science Fair Microprocessor Trainer I
mentioned earlier. 

> > Many of the early toy/personal/home computers I know of have already been
> > mentioned here, but there's one in particular that hasn't and will blow
> > you away with both it's "specs" and the effect it had on computing as we
> > know it today.
> 
> Are you in cahoots with Sam "see the VCF web page" Ismail?

No cahoots on this one, but we both have the same sense of juvenile
delight in "scoops" I guess.

OK, I'll spill the beans somewhat.  Normally, the only reason I don't
spill beans is because I hope to find an instance of the machine myself
before it becomes well-known and "valuable," but I have little hope of
finding this one. 

Who do you consider the father of personal computing?  It sure as hell
ain't Ed Roberts.  Some people consider it to be Alan Kay.  But Alan Kay
was heavily influenced by the work of Ivan Sutherland.  And who influenced
Ivan Sutherland?

When Sutherland was a kid, somebody lent him a "personal computer."  The
year was somewhere between 1950 and 1956, and the person with a personal
computer to lend was Edmund Berkeley.  Berkeley designed the machine in
1950, shortly after publishing his famous "Giant Brains" book.  He formed
a company called Berkeley Enterprises, and the charter was to popularize
the computer and to create personal computers (and robots) individuals
could build or buy as part of that goal.

The first kit was called SIMON (in honor of Simple Simon).  I don't have
all the details yet, but I believe it was relay based, and could be
programmed via paper tape!  I have a picture of it which I'll scan and
publish someday soon.

Sutherland wrote a division routine for it on paper tape, and also created
a storage unit for it called MAGDUM (for Magnetic Drum).  I have a copy of
the MAGDUM plans which I'll also be web-publishing.  I also have an early
Berkeley Enterprises catalog, including info about SIMON, MAGDUM, GENIAC,
and the early robots.

I dunno know about you, but when I learned of this, I was dumbfounded.
A personal computer made in 1950 created by one of the early pioneers and
which heavily influenced one of the most influential computer scientists
of our time!

-- Doug



From dpeschel at u.washington.edu  Thu Dec 17 17:47:01 1998
From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit - Philips?
In-Reply-To:  from "Doug Yowza" at Dec 17, 98 05:33:11 pm
Message-ID: <199812172347.PAA31887@saul2.u.washington.edu>

> A mechanical von Neumann machine?  I'm not sure I know of any machine, toy
> or not, that can claim that (and that's mostly due to my ignorance of the
> early relay-based machines, probably). But there are certainly electronic
> von Neumann toys, such as the Science Fair Microprocessor Trainer I
> mentioned earlier. 

True.  They're essentially small SBC's, right?  (And an SBC is a small
computer which happens to be on a single board.)  Electronics don't have the
twisted amusement of moving rods and rolling marbles, unfortunately.

> OK, I'll spill the beans somewhat.  Normally, the only reason I don't
> spill beans is because I hope to find an instance of the machine myself
> before it becomes well-known and "valuable," but I have little hope of
> finding this one. 

You could build one!  I don't think you will find one either.

> The first kit was called SIMON (in honor of Simple Simon).  I don't have
> all the details yet, but I believe it was relay based, and could be
> programmed via paper tape!  I have a picture of it which I'll scan and
> publish someday soon.

It is a very nice machine, though I wouldn't call it a computer in the
strict sense.  Berkeley wrote some books (and there may have been some
Scientific American articles) too.

Of course, I could be underestimating the power of Berkeley's machines.

Berkeley also wrote a nice book about LISP (which may be the only reason why
you can run PDP-1 LISP on your PDP-1 emulator -- the source is published in
the book and it would be VERY hard to find otherwise).  But I digress.

> Sutherland wrote a division routine for it on paper tape, and also created
> a storage unit for it called MAGDUM (for Magnetic Drum).  I have a copy of
> the MAGDUM plans which I'll also be web-publishing.  I also have an early
> Berkeley Enterprises catalog, including info about SIMON, MAGDUM, GENIAC,
> and the early robots.

I heard about the division routine somewhere but not MAGDUM.

> I dunno know about you, but when I learned of this, I was dumbfounded.
> A personal computer made in 1950 created by one of the early pioneers and
> which heavily influenced one of the most influential computer scientists
> of our time!

Actually, it is amazing, isn't it?  I shouldn't be disappointed even if it
turns out to be a "not-quite-a-computer" class machine.

-- Derek


From yowza at yowza.com  Thu Dec 17 18:06:39 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit - Philips?
In-Reply-To: <199812172347.PAA31887@saul2.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, D. Peschel wrote:

> > von Neumann toys, such as the Science Fair Microprocessor Trainer I
> > mentioned earlier. 
> 
> True.  They're essentially small SBC's, right?  (And an SBC is a small
> computer which happens to be on a single board.)  Electronics don't have the
> twisted amusement of moving rods and rolling marbles, unfortunately.

An SBC typically has multiple logic devices on board, this one is
microcontroller based (TMS1000 is a 4-bit microcontroller), so all of the
"computer" is on a single chip.

> > The first kit was called SIMON (in honor of Simple Simon).  I don't have
> 
> It is a very nice machine, though I wouldn't call it a computer in the
> strict sense.  Berkeley wrote some books (and there may have been some
> Scientific American articles) too.

I forgot about you, Mr. InterLibraryLoan.  I haven't yet picked up all of
the relevant articles, so if you have copies, let me know by private
email.

> Of course, I could be underestimating the power of Berkeley's machines.

I assume so.  Otherwise you'll have to define "computer" for me.

> Berkeley also wrote a nice book about LISP (which may be the only reason why
> you can run PDP-1 LISP on your PDP-1 emulator -- the source is published in
> the book and it would be VERY hard to find otherwise).  But I digress.

Yes, he was a mathematician, so "symbolic programming" was an interesting
paradigm to him.  But PDP-1 LISP is available via FTP from Supnik's
archive.

Speaking of programming paradigms, one of the reasons I've always been so
found of the E&S PS-300 was that it used a dataflow language.  I found
that a very compelling and completely different way to program.  What a
guy that Sutherland was, eh?

-- Doug



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 17 17:25:54 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit - Philips?
In-Reply-To: <199812172200.OAA31203@saul5.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Dec 17, 98 02:00:33 pm
Message-ID: 

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From dpeschel at u.washington.edu  Thu Dec 17 18:32:06 1998
From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit - Philips?
In-Reply-To:  from "Doug Yowza" at Dec 17, 98 06:06:39 pm
Message-ID: <199812180032.QAA13390@saul2.u.washington.edu>

> > > The first kit was called SIMON (in honor of Simple Simon).  I don't have
> > 
> > It is a very nice machine, though I wouldn't call it a computer in the
> > strict sense.  Berkeley wrote some books (and there may have been some
> > Scientific American articles) too.
> 
> I forgot about you, Mr. InterLibraryLoan.  I haven't yet picked up all of
> the relevant articles, so if you have copies, let me know by private
> email.

What titles are you looking for?  We have some of his books (though not
necessarily all) and probably Scientific American -- possibly on paper,
maybe microfiche.  Let me know and then I'll get in touch with you
personally.

> > Of course, I could be underestimating the power of Berkeley's machines.
> 
> I assume so.  Otherwise you'll have to define "computer" for me.

Well, from what I've read about SIMON, it has about two bits of RAM and a
few instructions.  (There are actually TWO paper tapes -- one for data, the
other for instructions.)  So you can program it and maybe use conditions,
but I don't think you can store a program anywhere in the machine.

The other kits may have been more powerful.

> > Berkeley also wrote a nice book about LISP (which may be the only reason why
> > you can run PDP-1 LISP on your PDP-1 emulator -- the source is published in
> > the book and it would be VERY hard to find otherwise).  But I digress.
> 
> Yes, he was a mathematician, so "symbolic programming" was an interesting
> paradigm to him.  But PDP-1 LISP is available via FTP from Supnik's
> archive.

But Supnik says he got the sources from Berkeley's book!  I just checked.

> Speaking of programming paradigms, one of the reasons I've always been so
> found of the E&S PS-300 was that it used a dataflow language.  I found
> that a very compelling and completely different way to program.  What a
> guy that Sutherland was, eh?

Yeah, he doesn't get much press.  (Also, when your work exists to make money
for your company, you're wise not to say too much about it.)  I really want
Sketchpad or a clone on MY machine.  I don't know anything about dataflow
languages.

-- Derek


From pctech at davidbowie.com  Thu Dec 17 18:36:29 1998
From: pctech at davidbowie.com (PCTech)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Computer parts for trade
Message-ID: <002301be2a1e$79297c60$aaa8adce@appclient>

I have alot of spare parts around the office and i would like to trade for a Commodore 64 or TRS 80 or other old computers i have some old FP 72pin memory simms 4megs and a bunch of 486 and pentium boards and processors.
if interested e-mail me.
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From yowza at yowza.com  Thu Dec 17 18:50:35 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit - Philips?
In-Reply-To: <199812180032.QAA13390@saul2.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, D. Peschel wrote:

> Well, from what I've read about SIMON, it has about two bits of RAM and a
> few instructions.  (There are actually TWO paper tapes -- one for data, the
> other for instructions.)  So you can program it and maybe use conditions,
> but I don't think you can store a program anywhere in the machine.

AFAIK, MAGDUM was an accessory for SIMON which gave you external
*primary* storage.  I think there were other "real" computers that also
used magnetic drum for primary storage.

> The other kits may have been more powerful.

No, the other kits were generally less powerful and less expensive to
built.  The estimated cost to build SIMON was $300, I think, whereas
GENIAC was $15 or so to buy from Oliver Garfield and other distributors.

> But Supnik says he got the sources from Berkeley's book!  I just checked.

Interesting.  I thought that I had heard that is was from an early copy
at MIT.  Not only was Berkeley the father of personal computing, but he
was an early computer history archivist as well :-)

> Yeah, he doesn't get much press.  (Also, when your work exists to make money
> for your company, you're wise not to say too much about it.)  I really want
> Sketchpad or a clone on MY machine.  I don't know anything about dataflow
> languages.

Sutherland's now down here at Sun Microsystems.  Come on down and let's
approach him about an interview and preserving/emulating some of his work. 
The Smithsonian already has a bunch of his stuff, I think, but I don't
exactly what they have. 

-- Doug



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 17 18:35:48 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Language and wiered people
In-Reply-To: <199812172230.PAA24349@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Dec 17, 98 03:30:47 pm
Message-ID: 

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From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Dec 17 19:45:39 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: disk drive database
In-Reply-To: 
 
References: <01be2a14$9646fde0$879ba6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: 

>That's a silly assumption, young Jason.  I still can't access the site
>from ANY browser.  I think it depends on where you're coming from, or how
>you are getting there.  I still haven't heard back from the webmaster
>regarding my query.

Sam,
It looks as if your message to the webmaster might have done some good.
Tonite I'm able to access it from Netscape 4.08/Mac, where last night I
couldn't.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Thu Dec 17 19:50:02 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Luftschiffe (was:ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s)
Message-ID: <002e01be2a28$bc5e2ee0$8b021a26@maxeskin>

>Yes, this is pretty much off topic, but as I said before,
>airships were the immediate cause of my getting involved with
>computers back in the late 70s when I was fresh out of the
>USAF and sick and tired of heavier-than-air equipment.

With the exception of certain bloated operating systems that indeed float on
vapour, most computers are heavier-than-air equipment :)
Why _were_ you sick of airplanes?



From jpero at pop.cgocable.net  Thu Dec 17 14:59:59 1998
From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: disk drive database
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <199812180154.UAA11690@mail.cgocable.net>

> Date:          Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:45:39 -0800
> Reply-to:      classiccmp@u.washington.edu
> From:          "Zane H. Healy" 
> To:            "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
> Subject:       Re: disk drive database

> Sam,
> It looks as if your message to the webmaster might have done some good.
> Tonite I'm able to access it from Netscape 4.08/Mac, where last night I
> couldn't.
> 
> 			Zane

Zane,

Nope.  I tried again after this msg.  I'm disappointed.
 
email: jpero@cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.


From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Thu Dec 17 20:17:09 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: disk drive database
Message-ID: <3b0f4d54.3679bb25@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/17/98 8:55:17 PM EST, jpero@pop.cgocable.net writes:

<<  Tonite I'm able to access it from Netscape 4.08/Mac, where last night I
 > couldn't.
 > 
 > 			Zane
 
 Zane,
 
 Nope.  I tried again after this msg.  I'm disappointed.
  
 email: jpero@cgocable.net
 Pero, Jason D. >>

still no go here either. 


From mtapley at swri.edu  Thu Dec 17 20:29:32 1998
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Another find available in Maryland
In-Reply-To: <199812080802.AAA23953@lists2.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: 

All,
	Next time I come to Maryland I am $^&(*& well going to bring more
luggage. Awright, gentlemen, start your engines. The finish line is the
Village Thrift Store in Laurel, MD, on the north side of 198 about a mile
west of 95. (Same place as last time I found a cool computer while
travelling and couldn't carry it home.)
	The prize is a Hewlett Packard Portable Plus together with an HP
9114B box (which I think is just an external battery powered 3.5" floppy.
Anyone?). It runs Lotus 1-2-3 and there are a couple of other programs on
it which I didn't have time to explore. There was only one power supply for
the computer plus the external box. Price was not marked. The store worker
quoted me $30 for the two of them, but (already aware that I could not pack
it) I said "hmph" and walked off. Hopefully he'll now quote you a lower
price. There were HP-IL (?) cables connecting the two. The computer said it
had a 300/1200 boud modem, and did have an RJ-11 jack. It also said "file
not found" on drive A: and had about 2.7 Mbytes left on drive B: That's
about all I remember about it. Let me know how it is...
							- Mark




From yowza at yowza.com  Thu Dec 17 21:18:05 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Unix Files (was Re: Xerox
In-Reply-To: <199812171303.NAA07166@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Hans Franke wrote:

> Shure, every Unix program starts with the riddle how to read a
> file, and whats in it. This is maybe one of the reasons why it
> took such a long time until some level has been reached. And
> why a X configuration is still some kind of lotto game.

The Unix philosophy is simplicity.  The filesystem is simple --
everything's just a byte stream, but that doesn't mean that information
can't be embedded into the file that describes its content.  That's what
"magic numbers" are all about.  See file (1). 

And what the heck does that have to do with X configuration?  X may be
big, cumbersome, and somewhat ugly, but don't blame Unix for that!

ObCC: Does anybody remember a nice small GUI that came out for Unix around
the same time as X?  I think it was called MGR, or something like that.

-- Doug



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Dec 17 21:42:08 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Unix Files (was Re: Xerox
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812171303.NAA07166@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: 

>ObCC: Does anybody remember a nice small GUI that came out for Unix around
>the same time as X?  I think it was called MGR, or something like that.

Yep, MGR was from Bellcore labs.  It was the first GUI I used on Linux,
since initially the requirements were to draconian to run X (actually I
think MGR was running on Linux before X).

Kind of cool, but it was slow.  I put it on a 386sx/16 laptop w/4Mb RAM
thinking that it would be faster than X.  Turns out that using the 'Mini-X'
distribution that used to be available that X was faster for what I needed
to do (preview DVI files).

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From Watzman at ibm.net  Wed Dec 16 22:40:44 1998
From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
Message-ID: <01BE2A10.847ED320@slip-32-100-187-57.oh.us.ibm.net>

Actually, in the US, the FCC regulations on emissions did not go into effect until 1981 or 1982, before that the only laws were those general laws against operating an unlicensed or unauthorized transmitter.  You could make an argument that any given item constituted such a transmitter, but even the FCC did not interpret things this way until the formal Class A / Class B certification rules went into effect.

Kits are a "grey" area, but generally it would be expected that they would comply when assembled according to the instructions (and believe me, pre-1980 computers are generally WAY out of compliance).  Since you are dealing with a "regulation" and not a "law" (in the US, anyway), enforcement is an administrative function of the FCC rather than a civil/criminal action by the courts (although in some cases it can spill over).

The safety issue, in the US, is NOT a legal requirement (except in the state of Oregon and some cities/counties, including Los Angeles).  Otherwise, there are generally no laws requiring UL approval.  But just try to get insurance or defend a lawsuit if you are a company that markets a non-UL approved product.  UL only applies to devices that use certain threshold levels of voltage; a board would not be impacted, but an IMSAI chassis that plugs into the wall, for example, would - and it would not pass (there is exposed full line voltage, among other things).



----------
From:  Tony Duell [SMTP:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk]
Sent:  Wednesday, December 16, 1998 8:38 PM
To:  Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject:  Re: SOL feeding frenzy?

> 
> I would actually like to be able to buy a "new" IMSAI (for example), =
> even if it wasn't made by IMSAI, but I would want it to be understood =
> that it was a newly produced copy.  It won't happen, however, in part =
> because it would be illegal to make any of these computer as "new" =

Well, there might be interlectual property/copyright problems, but do the 
other rules apply to kits/bare boards? 

The UK rules are strange IIRC. Kits have to pass the appropriate 
directives (covering EMC/safety, for example), when assembled as per the 
instructions. But I seem to remember that bare boards can be classed as 
components, and are thus exempt. Of course if you then populate the 
board, you'd better make sure it causes no interference.

Or at least I think that's roughly how most people interpret the 
regulations. The people who composed them seem not to realise that 
experimental designs exist, that example circuits exist, and that nobody 
can know what a circuit will do until it's built and tested...

> products.  There were no FCC regulations when these machines were =

I am sure there _were_ FCC rules, mainly to do with causing interference 
to other services.

Now, if it causes no intereference outside your house, who is to know or 
care :-). OK, if %random-public buys a computer he should be able to 
assume it'll not interfere with his TV in the same room. But if you build 
one, then provided it only wipes out _your_ TV and not those of your 
neighbours, then there's no real problem.

> originally built, and none of them are in compliance, and they couldn't =
> be put in compliance without a complete redesign (in fact, they are WAY =
> out of compliance).  Most of these were also not UL approved either.  So =

I don't see how UL approval can be applied to a bare board (OK, if it's 
designed so user controls are live or something...), since whether it is 
safe or not depends on how it is constructed, what parts are used, 
whether or not it is cased, etc.

-tony





From gram at cnct.com  Thu Dec 17 22:22:09 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Luftschiffe (was:ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s)
References: <002e01be2a28$bc5e2ee0$8b021a26@maxeskin>
Message-ID: <3679D871.383FCD94@cnct.com>

Max Eskin wrote:
> 
> >Yes, this is pretty much off topic, but as I said before,
> >airships were the immediate cause of my getting involved with
> >computers back in the late 70s when I was fresh out of the
> >USAF and sick and tired of heavier-than-air equipment.
> 
> With the exception of certain bloated operating systems that indeed float on
> vapour, most computers are heavier-than-air equipment :)
> Why _were_ you sick of airplanes?

Four years of being an avionics instrument technician.  Seemed nice
clean work when I enlisted, electronics and those nice glass-fronted
items in the cockpit.  Well, a lot of those nice clean instruments
that say what the engines are doing have corresponding detectors out
in the engines in a muck of grease, hydraulic fluid and half-burned
fuel.  Guess which parts malfunction and need to be replaced more
often due to conditions like heat and vibration.  Changing the fuel
flow transmitter on a C-141 engine cannot be done without taking a
shower in about 10 litres of kerosene, which not only smells bad and
causes headaches, it's damned cold when the procedure is being
performed in a howling blizzard and the fuel starts evaporating from
your clothing -- it also delays your next cigarette break for quite
a while.

Plus, heavier-than-air means something -- if something important
breaks in an airplane, it falls out of the sky, as gravity isn't
famous for its forgiving nature outside of cartoons.  If an engine
fails on a lighter-than-air craft, you float along while you fix it
or you proceed at reduced speed from the other engines to a repair
facility.  Even if you get a gas leak, you're not going to crash --
a large airship doesn't have one gasbag, it has a half-dozen or more
ballonets inside the structure separately sealed apart from each
other.

Oh, for those unfamiliar with the magnitude of a full-size airship
hangar like the one at Moffett Field, take a quick look inside one
at .
The Cardington hangar is smaller than the one at Moffett, the R-100
wasn't nearly the size of the Akron and Macon.  The thing in the
background that looks like a stack of crates is an eight story
building.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From jpl15 at netcom.com  Thu Dec 17 22:17:35 1998
From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Modem tones over television or radio
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, William Donzelli wrote:

> > > Does anyone remember any pre-BBS-era, pre-Internet attempts to send
> > > modem tones over US radio or television programming?
> > 
> > I've got two words for you, too:
> > 
> > Packet Radio.
> 
> Packet Radio??!?!! Think back, man - the U.S. Navy was doing this in the
> 1930s...
> 
> William Donzelli
> william@ans.net
> 


  Ummm, Bill...  you mean the Navy had AX.25 protcol damn near 40 
years before Bolt Beranek and Newman....?

  Now *Baudot* Teletype over radio...maybe, and I'd like to see that
document, since I love the "green keys" and run RTTY more than voice,
but AFAIK, the Tuscon Amateur Packet Radio club first transmitted
AX.25 over radio in the late 70s / early 80s, and did so only after
the advent of easily-available microprocessors to implement the
Packet Assembler/Disassembler function. 

  
  Cheers and Best of the Season to All:

  John

> 
> 


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Thu Dec 17 22:18:05 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Language and wiered people
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:

> You mean there are people here who _don't_ love other forms of ancient 
> machinery? I am (seriously) very supprised - I've never met a classic 
> computer enthusiast face-to-face who doesn't also love steam engines or 
> vintage cars, or antique clocks/watches or old cameras, or something like 
> that (those are all _inclusive_ ORs, of course). 

My other passion is for old telephony equipment, but I'm nowhere near the
fanaticism with that as I am with computers.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From roblwill at usaor.net  Fri Dec 18 01:20:59 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Packet Radio (was:Re: Modem tones over television or radio)
Message-ID: <01be2a56$f630cd20$ca8ea6d1@the-general>

Now that we seem to have drifted to the topic of Packet radio,  I was
wondering if anyone knew where I could pick up an inexpensive box (not sure
what they're called - the packet converter?).  Even an old, "obsolete one
would be good, since I was going to try to connect it to a 286 or 8088
laptop (probably 8088 Zenith).

ThAnX
-and-
Happy Holidaze,
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318



-----Original Message-----
From: John Lawson 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: Modem tones over television or radio

>
>
>  Ummm, Bill...  you mean the Navy had AX.25 protcol damn near 40
>years before Bolt Beranek and Newman....?
>
>  Now *Baudot* Teletype over radio...maybe, and I'd like to see that
>document, since I love the "green keys" and run RTTY more than voice,
>but AFAIK, the Tuscon Amateur Packet Radio club first transmitted
>AX.25 over radio in the late 70s / early 80s, and did so only after
>the advent of easily-available microprocessors to implement the
>Packet Assembler/Disassembler function.
>
>
>  Cheers and Best of the Season to All:
>
>  John
>
>>
>>
>



From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com  Thu Dec 17 22:35:48 1998
From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Compaticard IV, anyone?
Message-ID: 


My quarterly troll for a Micro-Solutions Compaticard...

If anyone has one they would trade/sell, I'm sure I could come up with
something interesting enough to make it worth while. Or if anyone finds
one in a junk bin somewhere, I'd be more than happy to pay
cost/shipping/finder's fee for one.

As always, please reply via private email.


Aaron



From gram at cnct.com  Thu Dec 17 22:59:47 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: Unix Files (was Re: Xerox
References: <199812171303.NAA07166@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> 
Message-ID: <3679E143.A19565A3@cnct.com>

Zane H. Healy wrote:
> 
> >ObCC: Does anybody remember a nice small GUI that came out for Unix around
> >the same time as X?  I think it was called MGR, or something like that.
> 
> Yep, MGR was from Bellcore labs.  It was the first GUI I used on Linux,
> since initially the requirements were to draconian to run X (actually I
> think MGR was running on Linux before X).
> 
> Kind of cool, but it was slow.  I put it on a 386sx/16 laptop w/4Mb RAM
> thinking that it would be faster than X.  Turns out that using the 'Mini-X'
> distribution that used to be available that X was faster for what I needed
> to do (preview DVI files).

MGR continues to be popular on surviving AT&T 3B1 and 7300 Unix PCs.
Took a small hardware mod to run it, but it's been stable for years.
Since the Unix PC can't be upgraded to enough RAM to make X useable.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From yowza at yowza.com  Thu Dec 17 22:55:31 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: GRiD Compass, anyone?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

[trolls everywhere]

Everybody knows the GRiD Compass (1982) was the first clamshell laptop and
was way ahead of it's time, right?  Well, John Higginbotham just webized
some of the Compass manuals and they look pretty good: 
	http://limbo.netpath.net/hw/GRiD/

And that reminds me, Compass owner that I am, to ask if there are any
other Compass owners out there?  I've got an 1100, 1101, 1129, and 1139.
There was also an 1107, 1109, and maybe more.  I'm looking to exchange
notes, docs, software, and pin-down the different models.

I still can't figure out how to make a working GRiD/OS boot floppy.  I
made one that boots and hangs, though. 

I'm also a little perplexed by the 1139 I recently got.  It's making
noises like it has a fan, but as far as I know, there are no moving parts
in there!  And the case seems to be stuck on pretty tight....

-- Doug




From yowza at yowza.com  Thu Dec 17 23:05:26 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:20 2005
Subject: X vs MGR (was Re: Unix Files (was Re: Xerox
In-Reply-To: <3679E143.A19565A3@cnct.com>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:

> MGR continues to be popular on surviving AT&T 3B1 and 7300 Unix PCs.
> Took a small hardware mod to run it, but it's been stable for years.
> Since the Unix PC can't be upgraded to enough RAM to make X useable.

OK, I'll bite.  What kind of hardware mod could MGR possibly require?

BTW, there's a nice little pro-X rant that covers some X alternatives:
	http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/xbloat.html

-- Doug



From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Dec 17 23:32:14 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: X vs MGR (was Re: Unix Files (was Re: Xerox
In-Reply-To: 
	(message from Doug Yowza on Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:05:26 -0600 (CST))
References: 
Message-ID: <19981218053214.10659.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:
> MGR continues to be popular on surviving AT&T 3B1 and 7300 Unix PCs.
> Took a small hardware mod to run it, but it's been stable for years.
> Since the Unix PC can't be upgraded to enough RAM to make X useable.

Doug asked:
> OK, I'll bite.  What kind of hardware mod could MGR possibly require?

In a stock 7300 or 3B1, the video memory can't be mapped into the user
address space.  The "VIDPAL" mod fixes this (at the risk that any process
can scribble on the screen memory).

There actually is a way to run MGR without the modification, but it is
extremely ssslllooowww.

Eric


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Dec 17 23:52:32 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: I don't believe this spam I just got!
Message-ID: 

I can't believe it.  My NETCOM account is on some SPAM list of NETCOM
subscribers (apparently someone sometime sold their user list).  Anyway, I
just got a SPAM from a computer seller.  Half the stuff listed is classic
DEC Hardware!  Based on the prices on Exabyte stuff if they hadn't spammed
me I'd probably be interested in doing business with them!?!?!  I just
don't believe it!

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From mbg at world.std.com  Thu Dec 17 23:49:56 1998
From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Filetypes (was Re: Xerox)
Message-ID: <199812180549.AA18226@world.std.com>


>Me and a friend almost liberated a DIGITAL sign from the Field Service
>office but they beat us to it.  My mother liberated a stop sign once
>though she got in loads of trouble, but she still has the sign :)

When the RT-11 development group moved out of the Mill for the
Parker St. complex, I kept the "8/11 systems engineering" sign
which had hung outside our area... I also kept one of the 'exit'
signs which someone had modified (keeping in mind RT-11 programmed
requests) to read '.EXIT'

A few months before the Monster Board had renovations to ML5-5
done (after Digital sold the Mill complex) I was able to go back
and get one of the 'ML5-5' signs.

Just a few remnants/keepsakes of a different time...

					Megan Gentry
					Former RT-11 Developer

+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL   | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group |          (home):  mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation    | addresses need '@' in place of '!'  |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43   | URL:     http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | 
| Nashua, NH 03062               | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055                 |  required." - mbg                   |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+



From gram at cnct.com  Thu Dec 17 23:56:43 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: X vs MGR (was Re: Unix Files (was Re: Xerox
References: 
Message-ID: <3679EE9B.ECE47ACA@cnct.com>

Doug Yowza wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:
> 
> > MGR continues to be popular on surviving AT&T 3B1 and 7300 Unix PCs.
> > Took a small hardware mod to run it, but it's been stable for years.
> > Since the Unix PC can't be upgraded to enough RAM to make X useable.
> 
> OK, I'll bite.  What kind of hardware mod could MGR possibly require?
> 
> BTW, there's a nice little pro-X rant that covers some X alternatives:
>         http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/xbloat.html

To quote section 2.5 of the 3B1 FAQ:

|>         MGR is an alternative windowing environment developed by Steve
|> Uhler at Bellcore and ported to the UNIX PC by Brad Bosch and Brian
|> Botton.  The MGR windowing environment can replace the standard
|> /dev/window environment on the UNIX PC quite nicely (it does prevent
|> some UNIX PC specific programs from being run since the wind.o
|> loadable device driver is not loaded).  MGR's user interface is quite
|> similar to a SunWindows environment, and raster operations are quite
|> fast.  MGR is a user program, not a driver (besides the pty driver),
|> so it doesn't take up precious kernel space.  It does require a
|> hardware modification called the VIDPAL.  The VIDPAL (developed by
|> Brian Botton [...!att!iexist!botton]) is a daughterboard that sits
|> sandwiched between the 68010 CPU and the motherboard and allows direct
|> access to video memory from a user process.
|> 
|>         At one time, Brian had provided VIDPAL kits but no longer does
|> so.  If you want to try out MGR, but can't get a VIDPAL board, you may
|> want to try out John Milton's VIDPAL emulator -- a software-only
|> solution to video memory access.  It is certainly slower than a real
|> VIDPAL, but is interesting none the less.  The VIDPAL emulator was
|> posted to comp.sources.3b1 and so should be archived at standard
|> archive sites like uunet.uu.net.
 
I was somehow thinking about another mod for the Unix PC, it's been
so many years since I installed it I forgot about the VIDPAL kit.  I
have it in one of my machines.  I thought there was a schematic
available, but I was obviously thinking of the ICUS hard disk upgrade.
(By the way, anybody scrapping old XT-type HD controllers check first
to see if the main chip is a WD2010 -- there are folks on comp.sys.3b1
desperate for them!)
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From marvin at rain.org  Fri Dec 18 00:07:23 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Packet Radio (was:Re: Modem tones over television or radio)
References: <01be2a56$f630cd20$ca8ea6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: <3679F11B.22DDB5EC@rain.org>

Jason Willgruber wrote:
> 
> Now that we seem to have drifted to the topic of Packet radio,  I was
> wondering if anyone knew where I could pick up an inexpensive box (not sure
> what they're called - the packet converter?).  Even an old, "obsolete one
> would be good, since I was going to try to connect it to a 286 or 8088
> laptop (probably 8088 Zenith).

What you are looking for is called a TNC (Terminal Node Controller.)  And
surprise, surprise, this is all on topic as I have several TNCs designed for
the C-64 (no, I'm not interested in getting rid of them.)  Years ago, I sold
a friend of mine an IBM PC (yes, PC) with two floppy drives that he used up
to last year to monitor packet radio here in Santa Barbara.  There is also a
device/software IIRC called Baycom that can be connected to the serial or
parallel port and will work for packet radio.  I might add you also need a
radio to monitor packet radio :) and a ham license to utilize it.


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Fri Dec 18 00:28:19 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: OT: Online auctins an institution?
Message-ID: 


I can't believe what an institution online auctions have now become.
Check out this preposterous item up for bid:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=49600496


Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Fri Dec 18 00:35:10 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: disk drive database
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote:

> It looks as if your message to the webmaster might have done some good.
> Tonite I'm able to access it from Netscape 4.08/Mac, where last night I
> couldn't.

Not for me unfortunately.  I'm still getting dissed.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From yowza at yowza.com  Fri Dec 18 00:39:20 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: OT: Online auctins an institution?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Sam Ismail wrote:

> I can't believe what an institution online auctions have now become.
> Check out this preposterous item up for bid:

You're excited about sniping software?  Did you just discover online
auctions or something?  There are books, newsletters, image hosting sites,
specialized search engines, third-party software vendors, etc.  But this
has been going on for at least a year or more now.

When the apps come from Microsoft, that's when you know it's hit
"institution" status.  BTW, Microsoft recently announced their online
auction add-on product to their web commerce server.

-- Doug




From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Fri Dec 18 00:47:09 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: I don't believe this spam I just got!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote:

> I can't believe it.  My NETCOM account is on some SPAM list of NETCOM
> subscribers (apparently someone sometime sold their user list).  Anyway, I
> just got a SPAM from a computer seller.  Half the stuff listed is classic
> DEC Hardware!  Based on the prices on Exabyte stuff if they hadn't spammed
> me I'd probably be interested in doing business with them!?!?!  I just
> don't believe it!

Claim you are in Washington state and tell them you won't file a complaint
against them if they give you a 50% discount on your first order.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Fri Dec 18 00:50:48 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: OT: Online auctins an institution?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:

> On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Sam Ismail wrote:
> 
> > I can't believe what an institution online auctions have now become.
> > Check out this preposterous item up for bid:
> 
> You're excited about sniping software?  Did you just discover online

Excited?  No.  Appalled.

> When the apps come from Microsoft, that's when you know it's hit
> "institution" status.  BTW, Microsoft recently announced their online
> auction add-on product to their web commerce server.

Yah!  Our auctions will work better and faster!

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com  Fri Dec 18 01:10:13 1998
From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: OT: Online auctins an institution?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Sam Ismail wrote:

> 
> I can't believe what an institution online auctions have now become.
> Check out this preposterous item up for bid:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=49600496


Jesus Christ. 

"You know how annoying and contemptable it is when people outbid you in
the final few seconds of an auction? Well, now you can do it too, and be
twice the a-hole!"

Maybe someone should mention his "free upgrade server" on slashdot...



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Fri Dec 18 01:34:07 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: I don't believe this spam I just got!
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

Sam Wrote:
>Claim you are in Washington state and tell them you won't file a complaint
>against them if they give you a 50% discount on your first order.

Hmmm, I am in the Portland area, and my Aunt and Uncle do live just across
the river in Washington so I could have it sent to thier address.  How evil
:^)

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Fri Dec 18 01:36:57 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: OT: Online auctins an institution?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

>> When the apps come from Microsoft, that's when you know it's hit
>> "institution" status.  BTW, Microsoft recently announced their online
>> auction add-on product to their web commerce server.
>
>Yah!  Our auctions will work better and faster!

No, no!  That's crash Harder and faster :^)

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Fri Dec 18 01:36:09 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: I don't believe this spam I just got!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote:

> Sam Wrote:
> >Claim you are in Washington state and tell them you won't file a complaint
> >against them if they give you a 50% discount on your first order.
> 
> Hmmm, I am in the Portland area, and my Aunt and Uncle do live just across
> the river in Washington so I could have it sent to thier address.  How evil
> :^)

Its all about leverage and how you use it baby. ;)

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From hansp at digiweb.com  Fri Dec 18 02:07:22 1998
From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
References: 
Message-ID: <367A0D3A.55E94758@digiweb.com>

Tony Duell wrote:

> Here are a couple more 'toy' computers that I've come across, dating from
> the early 1970's.

Tony,

Do you know of the Wireless World Computer, the design was published in
that magazine in 1967. The students 3 years older than me built one at
school and I got to be its guardan when they left. It was my first
introduction to hands on hardware.

It was an 8 bit word serial "machine" with 3 words of memeory,
"programs" had to be entered on switches.

I have the bound volume of WW with the complete designs, mabe I should
contact WW and see if they would allow me to publish it on the web?

Regards,

_---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___-
Hans B Pufal                          Comprehensive Computer Catalogue
             


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Dec 18 07:38:44 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Unix Files (was Re: Xerox
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812171303.NAA07166@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <199812181239.MAA10617@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > Shure, every Unix program starts with the riddle how to read a
> > file, and whats in it. This is maybe one of the reasons why it
> > took such a long time until some level has been reached. And
> > why a X configuration is still some kind of lotto game.

> The Unix philosophy is simplicity.  The filesystem is simple --
> everything's just a byte stream, but that doesn't mean that information
> can't be embedded into the file that describes its content.  That's what
> "magic numbers" are all about.  See file (1). 

That's it so simple, that it's only a covered disk driver. From
an OS I want OS services for common jobs and common solutions
to avoide the millionth invention of the weel. Take the simple
Apple DOS and their relave files - Within Unix not even this
simple kind of optimization is available - From a _real_ OS
I like to have services like SAM/ISAM fileslibrary management
etc. not just stupid, slow and clumbsy byte streams - If you
do it to simple, you miss the chance of geting high level
optimizations.

> And what the heck does that have to do with X configuration?  X may be
> big, cumbersome, and somewhat ugly, but don't blame Unix for that!

It just developed to the all-is-simple-and-therefore-every-
know-how-is-just-a-local-and-random Philosopy of Unix.

> ObCC: Does anybody remember a nice small GUI that came out for Unix around
> the same time as X?  I think it was called MGR, or something like that.

Isn't there a Linux implementation ?

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Dec 18 07:38:44 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: OT: Online auctins an institution?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <199812181239.MAA10625@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> >> When the apps come from Microsoft, that's when you know it's hit
> >> "institution" status.  BTW, Microsoft recently announced their online
> >> auction add-on product to their web commerce server.

> >Yah!  Our auctions will work better and faster!

> No, no!  That's crash Harder and faster :^)

Where do you want to loose your money today ? (SM)
H.


--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Dec 18 07:38:44 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Toy computers
In-Reply-To: <367A0D3A.55E94758@digiweb.com>
Message-ID: <199812181239.MAA10628@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> > Here are a couple more 'toy' computers that I've come across, dating from
> > the early 1970's.

Speaking of toy computers, I have seen an actual one
yesterday at Kaufhof (a big department store chain in
Germany). The series is calld IQ-Computer and has 3
Models - A Laptop, called IQ-Unlimited, with 512K RAM
and 4MB ROM, and two desktop Models with 128 or 512 K
RAM, called IQ TV 128 and IQ TV 512 - a lot of build
in programms (wordprocessor, spread sheet, drawing,
etc.) and a graphics resolution of 320x200 in at least
16 colours. The keyboard looks PC alike, and althrough
the Software looks MS-Win like, it isn't - also not GEOS.
The price is between 400 and 700 Mark.

Now, what I like to know is, has anyone already opened
this device ? Is it based on any 'historic' design ?
Maybe an Apple ][ or MSX ?

Gruss
H.

P.S.: The brand Name is V-TECH.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Dec 18 07:38:44 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: OT: Learning new words (was RE: "Single instance" machines)
In-Reply-To: <199812171812.KAA14665@saul5.u.washington.edu>
References: <3.0.5.32.19981217085535.00f74280@pc> from "John Foust" at Dec 17, 98 08:55:35 am
Message-ID: <199812181239.MAA10642@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> I really replied to ask if this is actual German (I have a feeling it's not).
> 
> 	Wenn ist das Nunstück git und Slotermeyer?  Ja!
> 	...Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!

:)) sounds a bit like, and most words are, well lets say
they can be real ... Looks like a mixup of several
different styles of spellingproblems. Spelling errors
like Found when people know only spoken errors, wordswaps,
like done from stundents that had only started to learn
(lets say two years :) together with words are just nonsense.
I guess someone with a certain knowledge of German _and_
a real sharp mind had compiled them.

Gruss
Hans


--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au  Fri Dec 18 06:47:25 1998
From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Language and wiered people
Message-ID: <01be2a84$904bf7e0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Friday, 18 December 1998 9:53
Subject: Re: Language and wiered people


>> If we were born 30 years earlier, we'd probably have been
>> collectors/restorers of antique
>> cars or aeroplanes or steam engines instead.
>
>What do you mean 'would have been' ?
>
>You mean there are people here who _don't_ love other forms of ancient
>machinery? I am (seriously) very supprised - I've never met a classic
>computer enthusiast face-to-face who doesn't also love steam engines or
>vintage cars, or antique clocks/watches or old cameras, or something like
>that (those are all _inclusive_ ORs, of course).

You still haven't.  I LOVE the stuff you mentioned.  I was speaking in a
"if there were no old computers to collect" mode.
I have a weakness for clocks, watches and teleprinters.
I also like
classic cars and aircraft (I used to fly quite a bit when I was younger)
I'm in mourning at the moment because the RAAF is retiring it's last
Dakota's in a couple of weeks.   I'm an Air Force Cadet Officer and
Instructor,
and have been on a few rides in the old Dak's with cadets.  Alas, no
more....
(I am restoring a 3cm radar off a commercial ship at the moment,
for use by our cadets.  Very different.)
My first ever ride in an aircraft was in an Ansett ANA DC3, around 1961.
I'd have one in my collection, but I can't figure how to get it past my
wife..;^)
Steam engines?  Yes, I have been on the Pichi Richi railway here in S.A. and
also Puffing Billy in the Melbourne area, and the Funicular Railway in the
Blue
Mountains.  I can still remember the steamers coming down the main street.
(the rail line ran down the centre for many years, gone now unfortunately)

Cheers
Geoff Roberts
Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie
South Australia.
netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Dec 18 07:51:55 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Modem tones over television or radio
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <199812181253.MAA13511@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > > Does anyone remember any pre-BBS-era, pre-Internet attempts to send
> > > modem tones over US radio or television programming?
> > I've got two words for you, too:
> > Packet Radio.

> Packet Radio??!?!! Think back, man - the U.S. Navy was doing this in the
> 1930s...

Packet radio ? In the 30s ? This is a packet switching network
thru a single chanal with halve duplex connections. To do this
at least micro coded controllers with a storage of at least one
packet are needed - in the 30s ? Maybe you reffer to wireless
teletype communication with id compare - I remember an article
about such a thin done in Germany in the early 30s - any trans-
mitted char was preceded by a codenumber of the reciver station
and only the addressed station did print the character. But it's
still not packet radio, since colision was not detected (other
than by getting the wrong result) and not permited. It was just
a way to share a single chanal.

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From rcini at msn.com  Fri Dec 18 06:34:25 1998
From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: New doc to be posted on Web site
Message-ID: <006a01be2a84$fd459cc0$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>

Hello, all:

    Through the kindness of our own Bill Yakowenko, I've been given a copy
of the MOS Microcomputers Hardware Manual, which I scanned last night. It
appears that this document is like a summary of and a design guidelines
white paper for the MOS 65xx product line, but it includes information
traditionally found in the data sheets, like pinouts, pin function
descriptions, mask-programmable options, chip architecture and function,
plus so much more!

    The chips covered explicitly in the book include the 6501, 6502,
6503-05, 6520, and 6530. It also describes "System Diagnosis Using Hardware
Programmer Aids", which mentions the KIM, TIM (Teletype Input Monitor), and
the MDT (Microcomputer Development Terminal). The TIM is implemented as a
single 6530 chip. The MDT appears to be acomplete development system: "MDT
is a prepackaged system and, therefore, should not have the problems
described above {debugging the initial system design} unless it is being
used in in circuit emulation mode. Therefore, the user will be primarily be
debugging his programs and his basic interconnection to his I/O devices with
the MDT."

    This is a large scan, and will be posted in parts. Enjoy.

[  Rich Cini/WUGNET
[   ClubWin!/CW7
[   MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
[   Collector of "classic" computers
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/
<================   reply   separator  =================>






From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Dec 18 07:57:25 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: KIM/MOS-Tech
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199812181258.MAA14697@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> I know this message is old, but my trailer explains the delay.
Cheers to Jim - you are realy about to catch up of
the whole mailing list ... a huge job :)

> I do know that Gateway Knows they own the 8-bit technology, since they
> have discussed licensing it to some folks, but I don't think the
> discussions went far.

Does anybody have more information about that ?
Or at least does anyone know whom to ask at Gateway ?

Servus
H.

--
Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh.
H.Achternbusch


From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Fri Dec 18 07:06:12 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Packet Radio (was:Re: Modem tones over television or radio)
Message-ID: <3618a0ae.367a5344@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/18/98 1:10:45 AM EST, marvin@rain.org writes:

<< What you are looking for is called a TNC (Terminal Node Controller.)  And
 surprise, surprise, this is all on topic as I have several TNCs designed for
 the C-64 (no, I'm not interested in getting rid of them.)  Years ago, I sold
 a friend of mine an IBM PC (yes, PC) with two floppy drives that he used up
 to last year to monitor packet radio here in Santa Barbara.  There is also a
 device/software IIRC called Baycom that can be connected to the serial or
 parallel port and will work for packet radio.  I might add you also need a
 radio to monitor packet radio :) and a ham license to utilize it.
  >>
at every radio rally i've been to, there is always someone displaying a TNC
for the C64 that appears to directly plug into the computer. I have seen one
TNC for sale, and it was ~$60. Unfortunately, i dont know anything about TNCs
like if there's just one type that plugs into a serial port or whether there
are other styles, but i do know you need a 2 meter radio and the license to
run it. packet radio seems to run at 2400, but i almost certainly remember
being told once that some were running at 9600. 


From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au  Fri Dec 18 07:13:59 1998
From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Packet Radio (was:Re: Modem tones over television or radio)
Message-ID: <01be2a88$463a5760$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>

-----Original Message-----
From: Marvin 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Friday, 18 December 1998 17:41
Subject: Re: Packet Radio (was:Re: Modem tones over television or radio)

>What you are looking for is called a TNC (Terminal Node Controller.)  And
>surprise, surprise, this is all on topic as I have several TNCs designed
for
>the C-64 (no, I'm not interested in getting rid of them.)  Years ago, I
sold
>a friend of mine an IBM PC (yes, PC) with two floppy drives that he used up
>to last year to monitor packet radio here in Santa Barbara.  There is also
a
>device/software IIRC called Baycom that can be connected to the serial or
>parallel port and will work for packet radio.

I have a Baycom modem that I made by converting a Sendata C64 Dumb modem.
(Hey, that makes this msg on topic even, it dates from about 1983!)
Basically, it works with driver software, either eprom based in the 64,
(can't think of
the name offhand) or device drivers and and a terminal, on a pc.  Provided
the
PC was quick enough, (an XT will do for the genuine Baycom software)
the effect is that it emulates a tnc at a fraction of the cost, significant,
since tnc
manufacturers are the biggest thieves out IMHO, charging $300 for the
equivalent
of a 1200 baud half duplex modem, with very simple firmware.
There are now several different drivers for baycom modems, including some
for
Windows and Win95, which was always a no-no because of interrupt latency,
but the
new machines are so quick that it's not a big factor at 1200 anymore.
Linux also has native support for both AX25 packet and Baycom modems.
I still use my converted C64 modem on 2M packet, though it now talks to a
P100
running Win95 rather than the original XT with Dos 3.3

>I might add you also need a radio to monitor packet radio :)
>and a ham license to utilize it.

I have seen packet activity in Sydney (some years ago now) on the 476mhz
CB Band.   It's illegal to do it there of course, but I have never heard
of anyone being prosecuted for it either.  It is still going on in some
places.
I have heard there is some activity using 300baud packet, AMTOR and RTTY
on the 27Mhz CB band as well, though I've not heard it myself.

Cheers
Geoff Roberts
VK5KDR
Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie
South Australia.
netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au



From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com  Fri Dec 18 07:18:50 1998
From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: I don't believe this spam I just got!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <13412743182.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>

[SPAMMER]

So call them and educate them as to the error of their ways, and inform them
that you may have bought an xyzzy from them, but they lost the sale since
they spammed.  Then tell them you told an entire mailing list they were a bunch
of dirtballs, and mention the 250+ potential customers they lost, and they'll
stop spamming real quicklike.
-------


From pechter at monmouth.com  Fri Dec 18 07:20:16 1998
From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Unix Files (was Re: Xerox
In-Reply-To: <199812181239.MAA10617@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from Hans Franke at "Dec 18, 98 01:39:44 pm"
Message-ID: <199812181320.IAA82753@monmouth.com>

> > ObCC: Does anybody remember a nice small GUI that came out for Unix around
> > the same time as X?  I think it was called MGR, or something like that.
> 
> Isn't there a Linux implementation ?
> 
> Gruss
> H.
> 
Sure is.  See the MGR-HOW-TO that's part of the Linux Doc. Project.

I believe it's under  http://www.metalab.unc.edu/Linux/doc.

Bill


From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com  Fri Dec 18 07:24:17 1998
From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: I don't believe this spam I just got!
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <13412744176.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>

[washington state]

Here's a question for you all:
I live in Illinois, but toad, the computer I read mail from, is in Washington.
I telnet in.  Therefore, since spamming is illegal in washington, and the
computer is in washington, is it illegal to spam me at the toad address, even
though I'm not a citizen of Washington State?  Can I invoke the Washington
Anti-Spam Law?
-------


From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au  Fri Dec 18 07:32:58 1998
From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Packet Radio (was:Re: Modem tones over television or radio)
Message-ID: <01be2a8a$ed16cb20$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>

-----Original Message-----
From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Saturday, 19 December 1998 0:37
Subject: Re: Packet Radio (was:Re: Modem tones over television or radio)



>packet radio seems to run at 2400, but i almost certainly remember
>being told once that some were running at 9600.

The user end of the packet network runs at 1200 baud mostly, at least in
this country.
However, the digipeaters and BBS's are linked by 4800 and 9600 bps
backbones.
Higher speeds are more widespread in the US.
By way of interest, the Russian Space Station Mir has a couple of Packet
setups,
one is the 1200bps terrestrial system, in the 2m amateur band, which I have
worked
a couple of times, using just my normal 1/4wave on the roof.
They also have a more sophisticated G3RUH 9600 BPS modem
which I think is on a 70cm radio with their SSTV gear.

Cheers
Geoff Roberts
VK5KDR
Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie
South Australia.
netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au



From cfandt at netsync.net  Fri Dec 18 07:40:34 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Free IBM 4997 rack in Portland, OR
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <4.1.19981218083639.00aa6a80@206.231.8.2>

At 22:43 12/16/98 -0800, John Rollins wrote:
>Come and get it, it's a bare IBM 4997. No side panels, no power strip, no
>mounting rails... Just a plain rack. Free to the first person who can come
>pick it up in north Portland(not too far off of I-5).

Darn!  And I still need an IBM 9309-2 rack enclosure for my 9370. I'm just
off NYS Route 17 (the new I-86 next Spring) and not too far from I-90.

Still looking, Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/


From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au  Fri Dec 18 08:13:19 1998
From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Vax Rescue in Adelaide.
Message-ID: <01be2a90$90273b60$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>

Hi all,

Just had a chat yesterday with the VMS System Manager at a big
national company in Adelaide.
He used to admin the Vax system we have at my School, when it
was with it's original owners.
Heard about this on the unofficial S.A. VMS Managers "old boy"
network, a wonderful resource, and it was mentioned I should contact him
as his company is retiring a Vax 6410/6240 Cluster next month.
It's just come off DEC maintainance and is still in service at the moment.
I expressed an interest, and it now seems likely, pending final approval by
the PTB at his company, that it will be ours gratis.
Just pickup and take away.   They dropped a couple of others at a scrap yard
last month as well.  Probably could've had them too if we'd known.   Seems
there are a
couple of HSC70's and a mixed bag of RA70's, 90's and 92's in the haul.
Plus a TA79.

I did a deal with a scrapyard earlier for 2 "spares" boxes, a 6440 with
a full XMI card fit, including the CI, Ethernet and DSSI cards, (it has no
BI
backplane at all). 128Mb of RAM.
Also a very beatup, (front door torn off) but probably still functional
6240, with
ditto ram and a more low end BI card fit. (CI, TK70, Ethernet etc)
I have to pick that up end of next month too.  At this rate, I'll have more
6000
spares than Digi^H^H^H^H Compaq.
The 6440's card fit (or perhaps the 6440) will migrate to the 6320 box
at the school, and give it a big boost in performance, and the 6240
will move in as a standby/testbed box.
(This leaves a 6220 and 6320 for me to play with here. :^)

I'm still looking for a PDP11, Vax 11/780 or similar, and IBM and Prime
Mainframes
of some description for the "Hall of the Dinosaurs" Computer Museum I intend
to start here.
I'll include some smaller stuff, Microvax's and the like, but that's being
done in several
places already, so I'm going to concentrate on the real big stuff.
FWIW, I'm using a VAX 8530 + CIBCI Cabinet and a TA78/TU78 as a room divider
in the cafe,
and a HSC50 and another same size cabinet with 3 RA81's in it as a counter.
They get some very interested looks, and some classic double takes too.

Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie
South Australia.
netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au



From jhfine at idirect.com  Fri Dec 18 09:20:27 1998
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: RT-11 IND - Curious Error Message
Message-ID: <367A72BB.9BFA2053@idirect.com>

I have been asked to modify a medium sized IND control
file in order to upgrade a system to Y2K compliance.  The
specifications call for testing a specific file on the old data
diskette and replacing it with a new version.  In the course
of making the changes, I have had a problem!  Rather than
post the complete IND control file, I have retained the
statements which are causing the problem.  And they have
been modified so as to be generalized.

Please be aware that while these statements serve no useful
purpose by themselves, all but their essence was removed
so as to produce this example in which the problem still
appears.  Most are from the original control file and a few
are present due to the new specifications.  So PLEASE
don't just respond that the control files shown serve no
useful purpose -  99% is missing and only the part which
causes the problem has been retained.  Someone taking
a quick look at the problem might dismiss it as useless.

I have 2 questions:
(a)  Is my understanding of IND incorrect and am I
      using IND in an incorrect manner?
(b)  Is there a bug in IND which is causing the problem?

I have attached 2 files.  The first is the minimum which
causes the problem.  The second provides a control
test situation which does seem to work at first, but
not under the conditions which are present in the
"minimum" test file.

Anyone out there who is still working with RT-11?

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine
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From Innfogra at aol.com  Fri Dec 18 09:56:20 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit - Philips?
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 12/17/98 4:54:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, yowza@yowza.com
writes:

>   I think there were other "real" computers that also
>  used magnetic drum for primary storage.

My first home computer was a Litton 1259 (maybe 1251, it was a while ago) It
had dual Drum memories of 200K each. The system had 5 3'X4' interconnected
cabinets, the CPU and console, the 2 drum memories, a printer and a paper tape
reader and punch. It took half of the Living room when I moved it in. It came
with a punch tape to generate snoopy calendars off the printer.

The Litton had worked for The State of Oregon General Services doing inventory
from 1969 till 1979. I think I got it in 1981.

Paul Pierce has a Litton 1231, same but with a single drum, saved. He is
planning to have it set up in his museum.

Paxton


From william at ans.net  Fri Dec 18 10:02:34 1998
From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Modem tones over television or radio
In-Reply-To: <199812181253.MAA13511@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: 

> Packet radio ? In the 30s ? This is a packet switching network
> thru a single chanal with halve duplex connections.

OK, poor wording on my part... 

The idea of transmitting modem tones over the radio (yes, even the
broadcast bands) is nothing new. Back in the 1930s the U.S. Navy was
playing around with the idea, trying to work it into their communications
systems, but did not have a great amount of success until 1944 or so. By
then the system had evolved into quite a monster, with quite a bit of it
being automated. "Routing" as we know it was still manually done and
messages were generally not broken into "packets". One very interesting
aspect is that the radioteletype nets were integrated with the landline
nets using things called "Land Line Control Units". These allowed an
operator to use a distant radio site to contact a station not on the
landline (i.e., a ship) in a completely automated fashion - the radio
sites could be left unmanned if need be. 

My point is that transmitting digital data over the land or air is really
a very old idea - most of what we know as networking theory these days was
formulated by the government and telephone companies long ago. 

William Donzelli
william@ans.net



From marvin at rain.org  Fri Dec 18 10:31:47 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Packet Radio (was:Re: Modem tones over television or radio)
References: <3618a0ae.367a5344@aol.com>
Message-ID: <367A8373.C77A9EB5@rain.org>

SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 12/18/98 1:10:45 AM EST, marvin@rain.org writes:
> 
> << What you are looking for is called a TNC (Terminal Node Controller.)  And
>   >>

> at every radio rally i've been to, there is always someone displaying a TNC
> for the C64 that appears to directly plug into the computer. I have seen one
> TNC for sale, and it was ~$60. Unfortunately, i dont know anything about TNCs
> like if there's just one type that plugs into a serial port or whether there
> are other styles, but i do know you need a 2 meter radio and the license to
> run it. packet radio seems to run at 2400, but i almost certainly remember
> being told once that some were running at 9600.

Try doing a web search on Baycom.  I just did one using "+baycom +tnc" and
got 803 listings.  The first one described what it is: "A Baycom is only a
*MODEM*  not a TNC.  The TNC-like functions are handled
in the software running on the PC connected to the MODEM."  I don't recall
the numbers but due to bandwidth limitations, the permitted baud rate
increases at the higher frequencies.


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Dec 18 11:46:25 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: 2650 floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <19981217192933.7342.qmail@brouhaha.com>
References: <000001be29bb$56d6e660$50f438cb@a.davie>	(adavie@mad.scientist.com)
Message-ID: <199812181647.QAA29223@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > Have in hand a full listing of the 2650-based 8080 emulator, used on this
> > machine.  This emulator was used to run CP/M on the machine..
> > So, does anybody else have a 2650 based computer?

> No, but I've got a 2650 simulator in C.  Maybe I can compile that to run
> on my 8080, and run the 8080 simulator on it, and boot CP/M *really* slowly.

Neat, maybe use the C64 C compiler ? And run on a C64 ?
Or more serious on a Apple IIgs ? 4 MHz 65816 running
a C written 2650 running an assembly written 8080 might
result in less than 100 kHz effective :)


:)))
H.

--
Traue keinem Menschen der 5 Tage blutet und immer noch nicht tod ist.


From amirault at epix.net  Fri Dec 18 11:00:28 1998
From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Osborne 1 manual, free to good home
References: <000101be29b2$79b0cce0$7df438cb@a.davie>
Message-ID: <367A8A2C.504B7B46@epix.net>

Andrew,
 Hi. I recently bought an osborne 1 @ my local salvation army store and have no
documentation or OS. Please email me at  amirault@epix.net to arrange shipping
if you still have the manual. Do you have the OS for the Osborne1?
                                      John Amirault
                                      Susquehanna, Pa., USA

Andrew Davie wrote:

> Really, I have no reason for keeping this, other than the horror of the
> thought of it being junked.  If anyone is looking for an Osborne 1 User's
> Reference Guide (dated 12/15/81) in excellent condition in original ring
> binder, about 300 pages, then it's yours for the postage cost.
> I'm based in Australia, and estimate surface cost about US$5, airmail about
> US$15.
> A





From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Dec 18 12:02:10 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Modem tones over television or radio
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812181253.MAA13511@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <199812181703.RAA01038@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > Packet radio ? In the 30s ? This is a packet switching network
> > thru a single chanal with halve duplex connections.

> My point is that transmitting digital data over the land or air is really
> a very old idea - most of what we know as networking theory these days was
> formulated by the government and telephone companies long ago. 

Ok, but this is true for almost all things - when they
come to broad audience, there is at least some 30 to
50 years of thinking and development before - Telephone,
networking, computers, cars, steam engine, what ever you
want.

Fun fact, in this weeks edition of Der Spiegel (a weekly
German newsmagazine) there is an artikle about modern/
future communication and integration of different ways
(voice, data, video, etc.). At one point they try to tell
the advantage of using an internet style network for
voice, instead of classic phone system. In the example
they tell that still today any phone connection depends
on a seperate, switched thru line, and an acordingly
seperate chanal - Just ignoring the fact that all lines
between exchanges are already digital, and even before
ISDN exchange to exchange connection have been build
as time or chanel multiplexing over single wires. In
Germany chanel multiplexing (I hope this is an under-
standable term) stared around 1950 - and time multiplexing
around 1970.

I don't know, if I should laugh or cry about this ignorance.
Only because they have stone age phones within their home
they belive the system behind is also stone age - and vice
versa ... *With an Pentium II chip all colours are brighter
and sounds are better ... '

Gruss
H.

--
Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh.
H.Achternbusch


From william at ans.net  Fri Dec 18 11:34:11 1998
From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Modem tones over television or radio
In-Reply-To: <199812181703.RAA01038@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: 

> Ok, but this is true for almost all things - when they
> come to broad audience, there is at least some 30 to
> 50 years of thinking and development before - Telephone,
> networking, computers, cars, steam engine, what ever you
> want.

Exactly! That is one of the reasons why I generally do not like "which
came first" arguments (plenty of those on this list!). Just about
everything has roots in something else.
 
> Just ignoring the fact that all lines
> between exchanges are already digital, and even before
> ISDN exchange to exchange connection have been build
> as time or chanel multiplexing over single wires.

And that the term "email" is a bit off as well, as nearly all Internet
traffic goes over fibre for over 99% of its way. Omail, maybe?

> I don't know, if I should laugh or cry about this ignorance.
> Only because they have stone age phones within their home
> they belive the system behind is also stone age - and vice
> versa ... *With an Pentium II chip all colours are brighter
> and sounds are better ... '

Generally, history revisionists are full of bunk, but there is a slight
thread of truth to what some of them say. It only takes one loudmouth
marketing person to start a campaign that becomes the "truth" in a short
time.

William Donzelli
william@ans.net



From bill at chipware.com  Fri Dec 18 11:39:25 1998
From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Halleluyah! Hooray! Eureka! Success! (OS-65U)
Message-ID: <001801be2aad$5aa20930$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com>

A few of you may know that one of my first postings to
Usenet (alt.folklore.computers) was a request for a copy
of Ohio Scientific's OS-65U 6502 operating system.  I
have been looking for it since 1993.  Well, Santa came
to me a little early today in the form of the UPS man
and I have here in my hand (well, sitting on the desk
next to me) a factory original set of 8 inch floppies
of OS-65U!  Level 1 version 1.44 CD-23 revision.  I also
have demo disks, and level 1 v 1.2 CD-7 revision.  I
think to myself, "My quest is over."

Now the real work begins.

I own six 8 inch floppy drives that came with OSI machines.
None of them have had a disk in them since I have owned
them (I haven't had one to put in them until now!).

three are:
Siemens FDD 200-8P

one is:
Shugart Model 801

the other two are in a box, I'll have to check later.

One of the Siemens has the gold face plate I mentioned in
another post.  The Siemens look like double sided drives,
the Shugart is definitely a single sided drive.  Nothing
on the disks indicate single or double sided.  I think
they are soft sectored (only one index hole).  How should
I proceed?  Could I get full repair and calibration
instructions for these drives?  Does anybody have an 8 inch
set up that can read and duplicate most formats?  Maybe recover
questionable/compromised data on the disks?

Thanks,
Bill Sudbrink


From cmcmanis at freegate.com  Fri Dec 18 11:55:00 1998
From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: OT: Online auctins an institution?
In-Reply-To: <199812181239.MAA10625@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
References: 
 
Message-ID: <4.1.19981218095158.00bcbce0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>

Snippet:
>> Microsoft recently announced their online
>> auction add-on product to their web commerce server.

Snippet:
>> Yah!  Our auctions will work better and faster!

Snippet:
>> No, no!  That's crash Harder and faster :^)

No one else has figured out that the real money is in the _information_
about what sold at auction for what? Ever wonder why Christie's will give
you a catalog of things for auction but will _sell_ you the results? On
line auctions are here to stay and they open a whole new area of
opportunity (as this list knows all too well)

--Chuck



From handyman at sprintmail.com  Fri Dec 18 12:09:16 1998
From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Trantor Mini SCSI Plus Cable
References: <199812171510.HAA18668@oa.ptloma.edu>
Message-ID: <367A9A4C.2950@pop.a001.sprintmail.com>

I Found a SCSI CDROM Drive with a Trantor MiniSCSI Plus printer port
adaptor with
that was going to the trash can..

The CDROM unit looks like it works , however I do not have the Software
Drivers for the
Trantor Printer port adaptor unit.. (This is a cable/interface that
allows the SCSI drive to be plugged into the printer port of a
computer)..

After looking on the Web I could not find a good phone number for this
company, apperantly went out of business..

Does anyone know where I can get the Trantor drivers so I can use this
drive ?

Any information would be much appericiated..

The following is on the unit:

Trantor Systems, Ltd.
MiniSCSI Plus
Model T348
Copyright 1992

Thanks for your help...

Phil...


From ai705 at osfn.org  Fri Dec 18 12:16:06 1998
From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: OT: Online auctins an institution?
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981218095158.00bcbce0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Chuck McManis wrote:
> 
> No one else has figured out that the real money is in the _information_
> about what sold at auction for what? Ever wonder why Christie's will give
> you a catalog of things for auction but will _sell_ you the results? On
> line auctions are here to stay and they open a whole new area of
> opportunity (as this list knows all too well)
> 
> --Chuck


An excellent point. Final Ebay results disappear after about 30 or 40
days. As you all saw from my post of the SOL auctions, I've been saving some
Ebay summaries manually for the last 14 months or so. Nothing specific.
Just stuff that eclectically appeals to me. Auctions for computer
equipment only and maybe about a couple of hundred a month

It probably can be automated and the number harvested stepped up,
but what I am doing so far fits my browsing, bookmarking and bidding
patterns, so I don't find it a burden.

Anybody else on the list doing this? Anybody thinking about doing it
seriously? Anybody want to throw some ideas out for standardizing the
information stored?

Just curious,

                                          -- Steve


From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com  Fri Dec 18 12:22:22 1998
From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Trantor Mini SCSI Plus Cable
In-Reply-To: <367A9A4C.2950@pop.a001.sprintmail.com>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Phil Clayton wrote:

> I Found a SCSI CDROM Drive with a Trantor MiniSCSI Plus printer port
> adaptor with
> that was going to the trash can..
> 
> The CDROM unit looks like it works , however I do not have the Software
> Drivers for the
> Trantor Printer port adaptor unit.. (This is a cable/interface that
> allows the SCSI drive to be plugged into the printer port of a
> computer)..
> 
> After looking on the Web I could not find a good phone number for this
> company, apperantly went out of business..
> 
> Does anyone know where I can get the Trantor drivers so I can use this
> drive ?
> 
> Any information would be much appericiated..
> 
> The following is on the unit:


Hi Phil,

Trantor was acquired by Adaptec, so the drivers will be on their
web-site. If you're using Linux, you can compile them right into the
Kernel. For Windows/Dos, I think the this was was renamed the "AHA348" or
"MA348" or something by Adaptec. I'm sure if you do a site search on the
Adaptec site for Trantor you'll find it. If all else fails, I have the
drivers somewhere at work that I can mail to you next week.


Aaron



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Dec 18 12:31:43 1998
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Trantor Mini SCSI Plus Cable
In-Reply-To: <367A9A4C.2950@pop.a001.sprintmail.com>
Message-ID: 

Trantor was bought out by Adaptec.  You might try them.

There were three models that I'm aware of:
T338 (rectangular thin box) that hangs off of the parallel port, or screw 
it on so that it gets enough leverage to break the connector.  The black 
labelled earlier sub-model is significantly less reliablke than the later 
blue labelled one.  Also marketed briefly through NEC (they once had the 
drivers on the web)

T348 cable based model.

T358  cable based model with ECP/EPP support

NONE of them are very reliable; but it's a handy way to hook things up to 
laptops, etc that don't have provision for a "real" SCSI controller.

Would you like me to snail mail a copy of the disk?  Or would you prefer 
e-mail attachment?

--
Fred Cisin                      cisin@xenosoft.com
XenoSoft                        http://www.xenosoft.com
2210 Sixth St.                  (510) 644-9366
Berkeley, CA 94710-2219


On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Phil Clayton wrote:

> I Found a SCSI CDROM Drive with a Trantor MiniSCSI Plus printer port
> adaptor with
> that was going to the trash can..
> 
> The CDROM unit looks like it works , however I do not have the Software
> Drivers for the
> Trantor Printer port adaptor unit.. (This is a cable/interface that
> allows the SCSI drive to be plugged into the printer port of a
> computer)..
> 
> After looking on the Web I could not find a good phone number for this
> company, apperantly went out of business..
> 
> Does anyone know where I can get the Trantor drivers so I can use this
> drive ?
> 
> Any information would be much appericiated..
> 
> The following is on the unit:
> 
> Trantor Systems, Ltd.
> MiniSCSI Plus
> Model T348
> Copyright 1992
> 
> Thanks for your help...
> 
> Phil...



From mbg at world.std.com  Fri Dec 18 12:41:29 1998
From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: PDP-8 for free, ACT FAST!!!! Like, This afternoon
Message-ID: <199812181841.AA13757@world.std.com>


The following was posted on alt.sys.pdp8... I don't have
any other knowledge of it, and can't save it myself...

SOMEONE, please save it!

I have been asked to post the following anonymous tip about the availability
of a PDP-8 system in Boston:

------------------------------

Two functional PDP-8e minicomputers, 32k, RK8e disk, TD8e DECtape,
bound for dumpster in Boston Friday afternoon, 18 december.
Researcher has finally decided he needs floor space more than potential
access to original data.
Also RK05 disk packs, documentation, tapes, etc. In racks, with wheels.
243 Charles St., Boston, alley beside Mass. Gen'l Hosp. Founders' House, 
rolling out between 4pm and 6pm. "Too much paperwork" to donate or sell,
they say. If you have a truck, and make appropriate offerings to 
the housekeeping folks, they could be yours.

------------------------------

That is today!  If you're in Boston and want a PDP-8 or want to help
someone get one, please act fast!  Please pass this note on to anyone
you feel could help rescue this system.

				Doug Jones
				jones@cs.uiowa.edu


From amirault at epix.net  Fri Dec 18 13:12:06 1998
From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: Trantor Mini SCSI Plus Cable
References: <199812171510.HAA18668@oa.ptloma.edu> <367A9A4C.2950@pop.a001.sprintmail.com>
Message-ID: <367AA906.D112BF95@epix.net>

Phil,
Here is an idea. Hook the drive up to a computer running Windows98.
Hopefully this will pull up your driver for this drive. I do not know if
this will be backwards compatible.
             John Amirault

Phil Clayton wrote:

> I Found a SCSI CDROM Drive with a Trantor MiniSCSI Plus printer port
> adaptor with
> that was going to the trash can..
>
> The CDROM unit looks like it works , however I do not have the Software
> Drivers for the
> Trantor Printer port adaptor unit.. (This is a cable/interface that
> allows the SCSI drive to be plugged into the printer port of a
> computer)..
>
> After looking on the Web I could not find a good phone number for this
> company, apperantly went out of business..
>
> Does anyone know where I can get the Trantor drivers so I can use this
> drive ?
>
> Any information would be much appericiated..
>
> The following is on the unit:
>
> Trantor Systems, Ltd.
> MiniSCSI Plus
> Model T348
> Copyright 1992
>
> Thanks for your help...
>
> Phil...





From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Dec 18 13:14:52 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: OT: Learning new words (was RE: "Single instance" machines)
In-Reply-To: <199812181239.MAA10642@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
	(Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de)
References: <3.0.5.32.19981217085535.00f74280@pc> from "John Foust" at Dec 17, 98 08:55:35 am <199812181239.MAA10642@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <19981218191452.14250.qmail@brouhaha.com>

> > 	Wenn ist das Nunstück git und Slotermeyer?  Ja!
> > 	...Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
> 
> :)) sounds a bit like, and most words are, well lets say
> they can be real ... Looks like a mixup of several
> different styles of spellingproblems. Spelling errors
> like Found when people know only spoken errors, wordswaps,
> like done from stundents that had only started to learn
> (lets say two years :) together with words are just nonsense.
> I guess someone with a certain knowledge of German _and_
> a real sharp mind had compiled them.

That's entirely appropriate, since the Monty Python sketch stated that
the each word of the "Killer Joke" had to be translated from English to
German by a different person.

Of course, if there were such a thing as a killer joke in English, it
seems likely that translating it literally (and poorly) into German would
substantially reduce its effectiveness.

I wonder if the Killer Joke works on AIs?


From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Dec 18 13:18:44 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: [OT] Re: Unix Files (was Re: Xerox
In-Reply-To: <199812181239.MAA10617@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
	(Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de)
References: <199812171303.NAA07166@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> <199812181239.MAA10617@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <19981218191844.14271.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Hans wrote:
> That's it so simple, that it's only a covered disk driver.

No, even a file system supporting only a byte-stream model still provides
much more service than a disk driver.

> From
> an OS I want OS services for common jobs and common solutions
> to avoide the millionth invention of the weel. Take the simple
> Apple DOS and their relave files - Within Unix not even this
> simple kind of optimization is available - From a _real_ OS
> I like to have services like SAM/ISAM fileslibrary management
> etc. not just stupid, slow and clumbsy byte streams

Why do you think it's better to put this functionality into an
already-bloated monolithic kernel, rather than implementing it as
a shared library in user space?

By keeping as much stuff as possible out of the kernel, you will
generally end up with a more robust system.

> - If you
> do it to simple, you miss the chance of geting high level
> optimizations.

I'm at somewhat of a loss to understand what optimizations
the kernel could do better than a shared library with regard to
fixed-length record access (as done by Apple DOS).

Eric


From cmcmanis at freegate.com  Fri Dec 18 13:21:19 1998
From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: PDP-8 for free, ACT FAST!!!! Like, This afternoon
In-Reply-To: <199812181841.AA13757@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981218111834.00be3ac0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>

If somebody on this list can manage it (All of the flights from SFO to
boston have already left, damn!) and the 8/e's can have their memory
reduced without disabling them (ie they are multiple nK memory units rather
than one 32K semiconductor memory board) I will send money to defray the
rescue cost in exchange for some memory (all I need is 4K :-)

E-mail if I can help.
--Chuck

At 01:41 PM 12/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>The following was posted on alt.sys.pdp8... I don't have
>any other knowledge of it, and can't save it myself...
>
>SOMEONE, please save it!
>
>I have been asked to post the following anonymous tip about the availability
>of a PDP-8 system in Boston:
>
>------------------------------
>
>Two functional PDP-8e minicomputers, 32k, RK8e disk, TD8e DECtape,
>bound for dumpster in Boston Friday afternoon, 18 december.
>Researcher has finally decided he needs floor space more than potential
>access to original data.
>Also RK05 disk packs, documentation, tapes, etc. In racks, with wheels.
>243 Charles St., Boston, alley beside Mass. Gen'l Hosp. Founders' House, 
>rolling out between 4pm and 6pm. "Too much paperwork" to donate or sell,
>they say. If you have a truck, and make appropriate offerings to 
>the housekeeping folks, they could be yours.
>
>------------------------------
>
>That is today!  If you're in Boston and want a PDP-8 or want to help
>someone get one, please act fast!  Please pass this note on to anyone
>you feel could help rescue this system.
>
>				Doug Jones
>				jones@cs.uiowa.edu




From healyzh at aracnet.com  Fri Dec 18 13:19:35 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:21 2005
Subject: VMS/RT-11/TSX-11 Documentation Online
In-Reply-To: <199812181841.AA13757@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Dec 18, 98 01:41:29 pm
Message-ID: <199812181919.LAA32141@shell2.aracnet.com>

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From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Dec 18 13:26:01 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Halleluyah! Hooray! Eureka! Success! (OS-65U)
In-Reply-To: <001801be2aad$5aa20930$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com>
	(bill@chipware.com)
References: <001801be2aad$5aa20930$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com>
Message-ID: <19981218192601.14324.qmail@brouhaha.com>

> of Ohio Scientific's OS-65U 6502 operating system.  I
[...]
> Does anybody have an 8 inch
> set up that can read and duplicate most formats?  Maybe recover
> questionable/compromised data on the disks?

Almost no other system can read the Ohio Scientific disk format.
Their disk controller is a UART.  That's right, they actually
store asynchronous data on the diskette.  8N1, if memory serves.

That made their disk controller almost as cheap as Woz's, but
nowhere near as clever.

I've never used OS-65U; I was stuck with OS-65D, which is an incredibly
feeble excuse for an operating system.  I hope OS-65U is better, but
software never really seemed to be one of Ohio Scientific's core
competencies.  Hardware either, for that matter.  They were pretty good
at advertising, though.

Eric


From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Dec 18 13:28:28 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: OT: Online auctins an institution?
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981218095158.00bcbce0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> (message
	from Chuck McManis on Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:55:00 -0800)
References: 
  <4.1.19981218095158.00bcbce0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
Message-ID: <19981218192828.14335.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Chuck wrote:
> On
> line auctions are here to stay and they open a whole new area of
> opportunity (as this list knows all too well)

As soon as you start trying to do anything with the results (like sell them),
eBay (or whoever) will be quick to point out that they own the data, and you
aren't allowed to use it for commercial purposes without a license.


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Fri Dec 18 15:41:03 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Trantor Mini SCSI Plus Cable
In-Reply-To: <367A9A4C.2950@pop.a001.sprintmail.com>
References: <199812171510.HAA18668@oa.ptloma.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981218154103.3cc76df8@intellistar.net>

Phil,

  I have one of those units. I'll dig out the dirvers and E-mail them to
you. I'm sorry (but not surprised) to hear that they've gone out of
business.  The stuff didn't work very well. They were supposed to send me
new derivers but never did.

   Joe

At 01:09 PM 12/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I Found a SCSI CDROM Drive with a Trantor MiniSCSI Plus printer port
>adaptor with
>that was going to the trash can..
>
>The CDROM unit looks like it works , however I do not have the Software
>Drivers for the
>Trantor Printer port adaptor unit.. (This is a cable/interface that
>allows the SCSI drive to be plugged into the printer port of a
>computer)..
>
>After looking on the Web I could not find a good phone number for this
>company, apperantly went out of business..
>
>Does anyone know where I can get the Trantor drivers so I can use this
>drive ?
>
>Any information would be much appericiated..
>
>The following is on the unit:
>
>Trantor Systems, Ltd.
>MiniSCSI Plus
>Model T348
>Copyright 1992
>
>Thanks for your help...
>
>Phil...
>



From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Fri Dec 18 14:19:54 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Emulex doc archive site gone now . . .
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981218113430.0d4f7572@ricochet.net>

At 09:14 AM 12/17/98 -0600, you wrote:
>There have been other cases where sites were "framing" content from
>other people's sites - imagine a super-news site that gave you the
>impression all the content was their own, but that only embedded
>(via links) content made by others, side-stepping their menus
>and banners, etc.  Today's relevant bit from TBTF below.

I can certainly see the issue with making content appear to be yours, when
in fact it was someone elses (I seem to remember someone framing WSJ
articles this way, and rightfully getting busted.)  

However, the simple act of "get your tickets at ticketmaster.com" (with an
embedded link) is more akin to "go three blocks that way, and turn left and
you'll see TM on the right". 



--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                       http://www.sinasohn.com/



From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Fri Dec 18 14:19:56 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: GRiD Compass, anyone?
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981218120649.38ef4610@ricochet.net>

At 10:55 PM 12/17/98 -0600, you wrote:
>And that reminds me, Compass owner that I am, to ask if there are any
>other Compass owners out there?  I've got an 1100, 1101, 1129, and 1139.

I've got an 1101 that doesn't work.  I'd love any others anyone wants to
part with.


--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                       http://www.sinasohn.com/



From handyman at sprintmail.com  Fri Dec 18 14:48:15 1998
From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Trantor Mini SCSI Plus Cable
References: <199812171510.HAA18668@oa.ptloma.edu> <3.0.1.16.19981218154103.3cc76df8@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <367ABF8F.152B@pop.a001.sprintmail.com>

>Phil Wrote 
> At 01:09 PM 12/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >I Found a SCSI CDROM Drive with a Trantor MiniSCSI Plus printer port
> >adaptor with that was going to the trash can..

Wow! That was quick response...
Many Thanks to everyone here that responded.
I did find Adaptec.com as suggested and there it was
complete with Manual and software drivers..

Looks like I may have me a Free working (To be determined) CDROM drive..

Thanks again everyone..

Phil...


From george at racsys.rt.rain.com  Fri Dec 18 15:13:07 1998
From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Halleluyah! Hooray! Eureka! Success! (OS-65U)
In-Reply-To: <001801be2aad$5aa20930$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com>
Message-ID: 

Congrats!!!
Keep us die-hard OSI'er informed!
George

=========================================================
George L. Rachor		george@racsys.rt.rain.com
Beaverton, Oregon               http://racsys.rt.rain.com
                                KD7DCX

On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Bill Sudbrink wrote:

> A few of you may know that one of my first postings to
> Usenet (alt.folklore.computers) was a request for a copy
> of Ohio Scientific's OS-65U 6502 operating system.  I
> have been looking for it since 1993.  Well, Santa came
> to me a little early today in the form of the UPS man
> and I have here in my hand (well, sitting on the desk
> next to me) a factory original set of 8 inch floppies
> of OS-65U!  Level 1 version 1.44 CD-23 revision.  I also
> have demo disks, and level 1 v 1.2 CD-7 revision.  I
> think to myself, "My quest is over."
> 
> Now the real work begins.
> 
> I own six 8 inch floppy drives that came with OSI machines.
> None of them have had a disk in them since I have owned
> them (I haven't had one to put in them until now!).
> 
> three are:
> Siemens FDD 200-8P
> 
> one is:
> Shugart Model 801
> 
> the other two are in a box, I'll have to check later.
> 
> One of the Siemens has the gold face plate I mentioned in
> another post.  The Siemens look like double sided drives,
> the Shugart is definitely a single sided drive.  Nothing
> on the disks indicate single or double sided.  I think
> they are soft sectored (only one index hole).  How should
> I proceed?  Could I get full repair and calibration
> instructions for these drives?  Does anybody have an 8 inch
> set up that can read and duplicate most formats?  Maybe recover
> questionable/compromised data on the disks?
> 
> Thanks,
> Bill Sudbrink
> 



From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Fri Dec 18 14:57:47 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Luftschiffe (was:ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s)
In-Reply-To: <199812182038.PAA00154@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA27406; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:21:53 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 gram@cnct.com wrote:
> facility.  Even if you get a gas leak, you're not going to crash --
> a large airship doesn't have one gasbag, it has a half-dozen or more
> ballonets inside the structure separately sealed apart from each
> other.



From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Fri Dec 18 15:10:36 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: TI 9900N
Message-ID: 

I just got this curious item from somebody. It's labelled LORAN C
NAVIGATOR on the back. I haven't powered it up yet, but I guess this is
something similar to GPS (only LORAN is on the ground, isn't it?). It
looks pretty old, and certainly has digital electronics in it. Could
someone tell me what to do with this thing? Would it be useful in a car or
an airplane? (I have neither)

----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From william at ans.net  Fri Dec 18 15:31:01 1998
From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Luftschiffe (was:ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> >From what I've heard, the reason why the US military stopped using
> airships was because so many crashed in storms...

The first bunch did (1920s-30s), but they were reborn in the 1940s, as
they were _wonderful_ ASW platforms. They continued to be used well into
the 1950s, carrying early warning radar stuff.

William Donzelli
william@ans.net



From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com  Fri Dec 18 15:46:16 1998
From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: VMS/RT-11/TSX-11 Documentation Online
In-Reply-To: <199812181919.LAA32141@shell2.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote:

> While waiting for something to finish I was doing some web searches looking
> for PDP-11 info and I just came across what looks to be a good source of
> info on RT-11, TSX-11, and VMS, as well as a bunch of other stuff.  It's a
> lab manual from the University of Regina.  It looks to be about 4 years old.
> It also has info on the LSI-11/02 and the PDP-11/40.  Helps to look through
> all the sections to find the good info.
> 
> http://www.cs.uregina.ca/dept/manuals/Manuals/lab.html

Very cool! Thanks Zane!



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Fri Dec 18 17:40:37 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Luftschiffe (was:ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital
  computer 1960s)
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981218174037.2ddf73ea@intellistar.net>

At 04:31 PM 12/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> >From what I've heard, the reason why the US military stopped using
>> airships was because so many crashed in storms...
>
>The first bunch did (1920s-30s), but they were reborn in the 1940s, as
>they were _wonderful_ ASW platforms. They continued to be used well into
>the 1950s, carrying early warning radar stuff.
>

   They're still being used for RADAR platforms.  There's one flying not 30
miles from here.  Supposedly being to used to stop the flow of drugs.  Yeah
-- right!

    Joe



From jruschme at exit109.com  Fri Dec 18 16:50:37 1998
From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Trantor Mini SCSI Plus Cable
In-Reply-To:  from Fred Cisin at "Dec 18, 98 10:31:43 am"
Message-ID: <199812182250.RAA16297@crobin.home.org>

> Trantor was bought out by Adaptec.  You might try them.
> 
> There were three models that I'm aware of:
> T338 (rectangular thin box) that hangs off of the parallel port, or screw 
> it on so that it gets enough leverage to break the connector.  The black 
> labelled earlier sub-model is significantly less reliablke than the later 
> blue labelled one.  Also marketed briefly through NEC (they once had the 
> drivers on the web)
> 
> T348 cable based model.
> 
> T358  cable based model with ECP/EPP support

Out of curiousity, does anyone know the difference between the T338 and T348
at the software/driver level?

I've got a T338 (Nec label) and drivers, but have only seen more modern
drivers (Win95. Linux) for the T348.

<<>>


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 18 12:37:45 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: SOL feeding frenzy?
In-Reply-To: <01BE2A10.847ED320@slip-32-100-187-57.oh.us.ibm.net> from "Barry A. Watzman" at Dec 16, 98 11:40:44 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 18 12:42:50 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Another find available in Maryland
In-Reply-To:  from "Mark Tapley" at Dec 17, 98 08:29:32 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 18 12:47:31 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: <367A0D3A.55E94758@digiweb.com> from "Hans B Pufal" at Dec 18, 98 09:07:22 am
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 18 13:08:24 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Halleluyah! Hooray! Eureka! Success! (OS-65U)
In-Reply-To: <001801be2aad$5aa20930$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Dec 18, 98 12:39:25 pm
Message-ID: 

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From gram at cnct.com  Fri Dec 18 17:19:00 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Luftschiffe (was:ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s)
References: 
Message-ID: <367AE2E4.6DCEBF1@cnct.com>

Max Eskin wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 gram@cnct.com wrote:
> > facility.  Even if you get a gas leak, you're not going to crash --
> > a large airship doesn't have one gasbag, it has a half-dozen or more
> > ballonets inside the structure separately sealed apart from each
> > other.
> 
> >From what I've heard, the reason why the US military stopped using
> airships was because so many crashed in storms...

Of the four rigid (Zeppelin-type) airships in the history of the US
Navy, two failed due to weather and one to human factors:
The Shenandoah was torn into three parts by a storm.  14 of the crew
died with the central section's extra weight of gondola and engines,
29 survived in the fore and aft sections, free-ballooning to safety.
The Akron was flown under the orders of Admiral Moffett into a storm
off Barnagat New Jersey, 3 survivors, 73 fatalities including the
Admiral who then had a base named after him.
The Macon was flown with temporary repairs to a structural fault on
manouvers with the fleet off Point Sur California, 2 crewman jumped
to their deaths in panic, 81 survivors floated with the ship and
were rescued.
The Los Angeles flew for eighteen years without an accident, was
scrapped for its aluminum shortly after the US entered WWII.

Most people see the old footage of the Hindenberg and assume that
everybody died.  Of the 97 people on board, 62 survived, most
uninjured.  35 on board died plus one ground crewman hit by falling
structure.

The US Navy used nonrigid (blimp-type) airships from the 1920s until
about 1960, very heavily in WWII for coastal patrol to spot ships
and especially submarines.  Though forbidden to engage enemy craft
due to their supposed fragility, one blimp with its radio out did
engage a German submarine in the Carribean rather than let it get
away while they physically reported to base.  The bomb releases
didn't work (they'd never been used), so they strafed the sub with
their one(1) 50-cal, and took envelope damage from return fire.  The
submarine fled while the blimp made it almost back to base before
needing rescue.  In the 1960s the crew was given commendations (after
decades under the cloud of court-martial for disobeying the order not
to engage the enemy) when Admiral Rosendahl (a survivor many years
before of the Shenandoah) found in German records an account that the
sub had been damaged by the blimp to the point where it could not
submerge, made it back across the Atlantic but was sunk by the Royal
Navy in the North Sea.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From gram at cnct.com  Fri Dec 18 17:23:48 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: TI 9900N
References: 
Message-ID: <367AE404.B700A24E@cnct.com>

Max Eskin wrote:
> 
> I just got this curious item from somebody. It's labelled LORAN C
> NAVIGATOR on the back. I haven't powered it up yet, but I guess this is
> something similar to GPS (only LORAN is on the ground, isn't it?). It
> looks pretty old, and certainly has digital electronics in it. Could
> someone tell me what to do with this thing? Would it be useful in a car or
> an airplane? (I have neither)

Loran is a system of radio transmitters that ships and planes use to
navigate by triangulating the direction of the signals from two or
more stations.  Can't thing of too much use for it in a car, unless
you're going _way_ off-road.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au  Fri Dec 18 18:14:30 1998
From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: TI 9900N
Message-ID: <01be2ae4$8c5f04a0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>

-----Original Message-----
From: Max Eskin 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Saturday, 19 December 1998 8:47
Subject: TI 9900N


>I just got this curious item from somebody. It's labelled LORAN C
>NAVIGATOR on the back. I haven't powered it up yet, but I guess this is
>something similar to GPS

Well, sorta. ie both are navigation systems.
LORAN is a civil version of a radio hyperbolic navigation aid developed by
the Brits
in WW2.  The Germans had a similar thing, which was originally based in the
Bay
of Biscay,  when the Brits found out about it, instead of destroying it,
they had charts
made to suit it, and it was used extensively by Coastal Command in the area.
It was continued as a nav service after the war, last I heard, it was
actually still operating,
but that was about 7 or 8 years ago now.
The British version was called GEE and was used to navigate (mostly) bomber
command aircraft, although I believe Coastal Command and possibly
the RN  minesweepers and other small ship also used it.  In those days
it was mostly used by aircraft though.

>(only LORAN is on the ground, isn't it?).

LOng Rnge Area Navigation.  No, it doesn't really matter, it will work in a
ship,
a plane or a car. (Or on foot if you have a small enough one to carry.)

>It looks pretty old, and certainly has digital electronics in it. Could
>someone tell me what to do with this thing? Would it be useful in a car or
>an airplane? (I have neither)

A small boat, like a yacht or a power boat could use it.   If they do, and
you
have the the special maps it needs, then yes, you should be able to use
it ok.  I know it was popular with small boats in the US area til a few
years ago,
yachts especially used it quite a bit.

I found the following web site, info there says LORAN-C is still operating,
and it
now seems likely it will continue til 2005 at least.
 http://www.illgen.com/ila/news/LoranDecision.htm

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie
South Australia.
netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au



From allisonp at world.std.com  Fri Dec 18 18:14:28 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: PDP-8 for free, ACT FAST!!!! Like, This afternoon
Message-ID: <199812190014.AA28754@world.std.com>

< That is today!  If you're in Boston and want a PDP-8 or want to help
< someone get one, please act fast!  Please pass this note on to anyone
< you feel could help rescue this system.

Damm, no wau I could make it in there and I want one too.

Allison



From gram at cnct.com  Fri Dec 18 19:05:01 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: TI 9900N
References: <01be2ae4$8c5f04a0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>
Message-ID: <367AFBBD.93A9C53D@cnct.com>

Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote:

> From: Max Eskin 

> >I just got this curious item from somebody. It's labelled LORAN C
> >NAVIGATOR on the back. I haven't powered it up yet, but I guess this is
> >something similar to GPS

> I found the following web site, info there says LORAN-C is still operating,
> and it
> now seems likely it will continue til 2005 at least.
>  http://www.illgen.com/ila/news/LoranDecision.htm

That's good, with the known (non-Y2K) hiccup of the GPS scheduled
for August 1999.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From allisonp at world.std.com  Fri Dec 18 18:59:21 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: TI 9900N
Message-ID: <199812190059.AA29157@world.std.com>

< > I just got this curious item from somebody. It's labelled LORAN C
< > NAVIGATOR on the back. I haven't powered it up yet, but I guess this i
< > something similar to GPS (only LORAN is on the ground, isn't it?). It
< > looks pretty old, and certainly has digital electronics in it. Could
< > someone tell me what to do with this thing? Would it be useful in a ca
< > an airplane? (I have neither)
< 
< Loran is a system of radio transmitters that ships and planes use to
< navigate by triangulating the direction of the signals from two or
< more stations.  Can't thing of too much use for it in a car, unless
< you're going _way_ off-road.

It's loran C, still in use for aircraft and ships that cannot afford or do 
not yet have NAVSAT(GPS) hardware.

IT's basically a specialized 100khz reciever and signal processing system 
coupled to a microporcessor to translate LOP to lat/long.  Accuracy better 
than 1mile and typicaly .2mile.  I have a smaller one in my plane
and still use it.

I wouldn't mind having one of the old TIs as they were amoung the first 
commercial loran C.

Allison



From donm at cts.com  Fri Dec 18 19:16:17 1998
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Another find available in Maryland
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Mark Tapley wrote:  

snip

> price. There were HP-IL (?) cables connecting the two. The computer said it

Which reminds me - where are HP-IL cables available?  Or are they?

						 - don



From ddameron at earthlink.net  Fri Dec 18 20:09:47 1998
From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
Message-ID: <199812190209.SAA29150@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

At 06:47 PM 12/18/98 +0000, Tony wrote:
>[...]
>
>Sounds interesting... I don't think I have the appropriate year of WW, 
>though. I do have all the articles for the PE 'digical', which was a 
>build-it-yourself-from-TTL 4-function calcualtor. 

This sounds interesting. Is PE "Popular Electronics" or another mag.? I
assume it was in the 1970's, could you say what issues? Thanks,
-Dave


It used successive 
>addition for multiplication (and was thus slow as heck) and a diode 
>matrix ROM for the control store. Needless to say it is rather interesting.
>
>How I wish we got projects like this in magazines today...

I quess you make up your own today.
-Dave

>
>-tony
>
>
>



From lwalker at mail.interlog.com  Fri Dec 18 15:23:10 1998
From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: H/Z 100 parts source 
Message-ID: <199812190223.VAA27275@smtp.interlog.com>

 For those who are looking for a parts source for these beasts , a new one has
popped up.
 
Well, Gernware Enterprises >finally< put up some web pages
on all the stuff still in stock for all the old ZDS systems.

Although these systems are long obsolete, Gernware still has both
new products and used parts available for the Z-100, Z-150, Z-171,
Z-248, and other stuff (including a 8-color flatbed plotter!).

It can't hurt to try Gernware to keep an old ZDS system running!

Front of the line ZDS software for the Z-100 is being offered this
time around.  And as always at below really cheap costs.

For all the details hit the web pages at:

www.borg.com/~gern


Gernware wishes a merry seasons greetings to all Gernware
customers, both the loyal past customers and future ones!

Cheers,
Gern

  I don't know who thsi is but it's a rare source.

ciao		larry
lwalker@interlog.com


From museum at techniche.com  Fri Dec 18 21:29:12 1998
From: museum at techniche.com (Jon Healey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: PDP-8 for free, ACT FAST!!!! Like, This afternoon
Message-ID: <199812190329.WAA11533@chmls06.mediaone.net>

Well Don't feel too bad everyone,
at least we were represented.

I was kind of passing by Boston this evening (on my way
from Connecticut to New Hampshire).  So I made plan for
a little detour when I saw this original message.

I was not familiar with the "alley" in question so it proved
to be a pretty painful adventure (for any of you familiar with
the streets of downtown Boston).

I knew I wouldn't arrive by 6pm, but when I finally found the
right dumpster, it was closer to 8pm.  All that was left were 
two empty steel racks.

While I was rummaging an employee happened by on a
cigarette break.  I asked if this was the "right" dumpster.

He said that it was but that there was a line of MIT students
waiting when the computers hit the loading platform.   They
apparently didn't last long.

Now, aren't you glad you didn't all drive into Boston like I did?

Merry Christmas,

Jon
==========================================

>< That is today!  If you're in Boston and want a PDP-8 or want to help
>< someone get one, please act fast!  Please pass this note on to anyone
>< you feel could help rescue this system.
>
>Damm, no wau I could make it in there and I want one too.
>
>Allison
>
>



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Fri Dec 18 21:51:17 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Couple oddball RSX-11M questions
Message-ID: 

Since DECnet I can get files from my Linux box to the VAX, and from there
to the PDP-11 when it's running RSX-11M 4.2 it's now easier to get stuff
transfered to the PDP-11, and this weekend I hope to have TCP/IP working
under RT-11 since I figured out how to transfer files from the RSX disks to
the RT-11 disk.

Now the first quesiton is this.  I've got a bunch of RL01's and RL02's with
software on them, and when I got them I backed them up onto my Linux box so
I could play with them in the Emulator without having RL01/02 drives in the
house.   Using the network I should be able to transfer those Disk Images
over to the PDP-11.  However, can I mount those disk images under RSX-11M
4.2 like I can RT-11 disk images under RT-11?  If so what do I need to do
this?

Second question.  As I understand it, using DECnet it is possible to use
the tape drive on VAX from another VAX.  Well, the VAX in the house doesn't
have a tapedrive, and I've not run the network out to the garage.  So is it
possible to have the VAX access the TK-50 on the PDP-11/73 via DECnet?

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Fri Dec 18 22:00:52 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: PDP-8 for free, ACT FAST!!!! Like, This afternoon
In-Reply-To: <199812190329.WAA11533@chmls06.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: 

>He said that it was but that there was a line of MIT students
>waiting when the computers hit the loading platform.   They
>apparently didn't last long.

Thank you for this report, now those of us to far away to have attempted
can rest easier :^)

		Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au  Fri Dec 18 22:11:03 1998
From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: PDP-8 for free, ACT FAST!!!! Like, This afternoon
Message-ID: <01be2b05$98339220$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>

-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Healey 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Saturday, 19 December 1998 15:02
Subject: Re: PDP-8 for free, ACT FAST!!!! Like, This afternoon


> I asked if this was the "right" dumpster.
>
>He said that it was but that there was a line of MIT students
>waiting when the computers hit the loading platform.   They
>apparently didn't last long.

Good.  It didn't wind up as razor blades or beer cans.
I hate it when that happens.  Sounds like it found a
home.

cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie
South Australia.
netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Fri Dec 18 22:29:39 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:

> Sounds interesting... I don't think I have the appropriate year of WW, 
> though. I do have all the articles for the PE 'digical', which was a 
> build-it-yourself-from-TTL 4-function calcualtor. It used successive 
> addition for multiplication (and was thus slow as heck) and a diode 
> matrix ROM for the control store. Needless to say it is rather interesting.
> 
> How I wish we got projects like this in magazines today...

Me too!  What are kids these days coming up on?

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From yowza at yowza.com  Fri Dec 18 22:35:22 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Sam Ismail wrote:

> Me too!  What are kids these days coming up on?

LEGO MindStorms, the lucky bastards.

-- Doug



From foxvideo at wincom.net  Sat Dec 19 05:35:05 1998
From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: alt.folklore.computers
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981219063505.00799c20@mail.wincom.net>


	Is anyone besides me having trouble with alt.folklore.computers?


								Regards
								Charlie Fox


	                        Charles E. Fox
	               Chas E. Fox Video Productions
		793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada
	email foxvideo@wincom.net   Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo



From dpeschel at u.washington.edu  Sat Dec 19 06:01:12 1998
From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: alt.folklore.computers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981219063505.00799c20@mail.wincom.net> from "Charles E. Fox" at Dec 19, 98 06:35:05 am
Message-ID: <199812191201.EAA04810@saul7.u.washington.edu>

> 	Is anyone besides me having trouble with alt.folklore.computers?

No -- I can read it just fine.  The only trouble is the very long VMS-vs.-
Unix thread going on.  Even the spam has disappeared.

-- Derek


From mbg at world.std.com  Sat Dec 19 07:14:20 1998
From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: PDP-8 for free, ACT FAST!!!! Like, This afternoon
Message-ID: <199812191314.AA00176@world.std.com>


>Well Don't feel too bad everyone,
>at least we were represented.

   <...>

>He said that it was but that there was a line of MIT students
>waiting when the computers hit the loading platform.   They
>apparently didn't last long.

Sorry your detour was unproductive, but I'm really glad that the
machines didn't end up in land-fill somewhere...

					Megan Gentry
					Former RT-11 Developer

+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL   | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group |          (home):  mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation    | addresses need '@' in place of '!'  |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43   | URL:     http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | 
| Nashua, NH 03062               | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055                 |  required." - mbg                   |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+



From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au  Sat Dec 19 07:24:53 1998
From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Fw: *URGENT* moving IBM 5360 to museum-need advice
Message-ID: <01be2b52$f649d8e0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>

Hi folks,

This gentlemen could use some expert advice.  
I don't know diddly about IBM stuff of this magnitude,
so, at his request, I have reposted his plea here.
Can someone respond directly to him with some 
useful information?
Thanks in advance.....

I've also suggested that he join the CC list...:^)

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Epton 
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Saturday, 19 December 1998 18:04
Subject: *URGENT* moving IBM 5360 to museum-need advice


>On Tuesday we will be moving an IBM 5360 10 Km from a warehouse to our
>museum.
>
>Can anyone please give me any advice on issues such as how to lock
>down drives and any other steps which should be taken to protect the
>machine while moving it.
>
>I already have another IBM 5360, with a disk expansion bay. But this
>machine is of rather dubious origins. I bought it from a scrap metal
>yard and I don't know how badly treated it was before I obtained it.
>Also, to move it I had to dismantle the power supply to reduce the
>weight. I carefully labelled every lead but unfortunately some of the
>labels fell off. Hence I have been reluctant to power it up for fear
>of it errupting into a molten ball of flames.
>For these reasons I was thinking of gutting the present machine for
>any good parts and replacing with the newer machine.
>The new machine has no expansion bay but was working two years ago
>when turned off.
>How hard would it be to add the expansion bay on to the new machine ?
>In terms of configuration steps ?
>
>Some guys are going to use a forklift to move the machine on Monday
>and stick it in a storage area - what do I need to do beforehand ?
>
>Many thanks in anticipation.
>
>Tony Epton
>Hardware Curator
>Australian Computer Museum Association (Western Australia)

Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie 
South Australia.
netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au



From gram at cnct.com  Sat Dec 19 08:03:55 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: PDP-8 for free, ACT FAST!!!! Like, This afternoon
References: <01be2b05$98339220$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>
Message-ID: <367BB24B.95C87DA2@cnct.com>

Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote:
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jon Healey 
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> 
> Date: Saturday, 19 December 1998 15:02
> Subject: Re: PDP-8 for free, ACT FAST!!!! Like, This afternoon
> 
> > I asked if this was the "right" dumpster.
> >
> >He said that it was but that there was a line of MIT students
> >waiting when the computers hit the loading platform.   They
> >apparently didn't last long.
> 
> Good.  It didn't wind up as razor blades or beer cans.
> I hate it when that happens.  Sounds like it found a
> home.

Sounds like it might have found several homes.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From gram at cnct.com  Sat Dec 19 08:08:59 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
References: 
Message-ID: <367BB37B.1EA0377D@cnct.com>

Doug Yowza wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Sam Ismail wrote:
> 
> > Me too!  What are kids these days coming up on?
> 
> LEGO MindStorms, the lucky bastards.

Not an example of the product to be found anywhere around here, I've
checked all around the NYC metro area.  And based on my talks with
Toys'B'We employees, most of them aren't going under trees for the
kids.  (Well, I don't even have any kids).

Must've been that commercial of the Lego robot catching sister in the
shower.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au  Sat Dec 19 08:16:12 1998
From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Fw: PDP Stuff available in Columbia, MD. (Maryland?)
Message-ID: <01be2b5a$21f35a00$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>

US PDP collectors,
Saw the following in comp.sys.dec.

-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck McCrobie (** MAD VAX **) 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec
Date: Friday, 18 December 1998 15:17
Subject: PDP Stuff


>I have the following warm and not-so-friendly creatures available free
>to good home (they've had their shots and are eager to please):
>
>Cards:
>1 DLV2
>1 TMM10010
>1 M8186
>7 USDC 1101
>
>Systems:
>1 PDP-? containing the following cards:
> 1 TMM10010
> 1 8186
> 1 DLV2 
> Appears to have a QBUS
> USDC Cabinet
>
>1 PDP-? containing the following cards:
> 1 TMM10010
> 1 8186
> 1 DLV2
> Appears to have a QBUS
> USDC Cabinet
>
>The two systems power up and produce the "@" prompt.  Sorry, there are
>no disks for these systems.  Sorry, I know nothing more than the above. 
>We have been cleaning house and I've asked that these items be saved for
>distribution to a cheerful, happy household!
>
>The systems are located at U.S. Design in Columbia, MD.  I would prefer
>that you come by and pick these systems up, all or in part.  First-come,
>first-served!
>
>If you're interested, please call me at (410)-381-3000 x130 to set up a
>pick up time.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Chuck McCrobie (** MAD VAX **)

Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie 
South Australia.
netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au



From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com  Sat Dec 19 09:25:42 1998
From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Couple oddball RSX-11M questions
Message-ID: <981219102542.2f000af6@trailing-edge.com>

>Now the first quesiton is this.  I've got a bunch of RL01's and RL02's with
>software on them, and when I got them I backed them up onto my Linux box so
>I could play with them in the Emulator without having RL01/02 drives in the
>house.   Using the network I should be able to transfer those Disk Images
>over to the PDP-11.  However, can I mount those disk images under RSX-11M
>4.2 like I can RT-11 disk images under RT-11?  If so what do I need to do
>this?

If you wanted access to the RT-11 files on the RL02, you'd use FLX.  Type
HELP FLX at the MCR prompt.

I suspect that you want to access the "raw" image, though.  If you were
using 11M+, you'd do a MOU /FOR, then you'd be able to block-address
the drive as the file "DL0:", etc.  Under 11M you don't even have to do
the /FOR (though you may have to do an ALLocate.)

>Second question.  As I understand it, using DECnet it is possible to use
>the tape drive on VAX from another VAX.

Depending on the version and the tape interface and what software you have,
yes it can be accessed over the network.  The best way to do this is to
have the machine with the drive do TMSCP serving to the rest of the cluster,
though there do exist DECUS freeware tools for non-cluster serving across
DECNET.

>  Well, the VAX in the house doesn't
>have a tapedrive, and I've not run the network out to the garage.  So is it
>possible to have the VAX access the TK-50 on the PDP-11/73 via DECnet?

FAL on RSX won't let you do so.  But you could upgrade to 11M+ 4.5, and
use VCP to make a tape image.  But even this isn't very smooth.

My favorite solution would be sneakernet - pull the drive and controller
and move it !

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927


From pechter at monmouth.com  Sat Dec 19 10:29:40 1998
From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: alt.folklore.computers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981219063505.00799c20@mail.wincom.net> from "Charles E. Fox" at "Dec 19, 98 06:35:05 am"
Message-ID: <199812191629.LAA05925@monmouth.com>

> 
> 	Is anyone besides me having trouble with alt.folklore.computers?
> 
> 
> 								Regards
> 								Charlie Fox
> 

Works here in New Jersey...

Bill


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sat Dec 19 11:14:38 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: DOS Version of Supnik PDP-11 Emulator?
Message-ID: 

A while back someone had mentioned that they'd compiled a DOS version of
the Supnik emulator.  Is it available for FTP somewhere?

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From mcquiggi at sfu.ca  Sat Dec 19 11:21:27 1998
From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: DOS Version of Supnik PDP-11 Emulator?
In-Reply-To:  from "Zane H. Healy" at Dec 19, 98 09:14:38 am
Message-ID: <199812191721.JAA08416@fraser.sfu.ca>

If you have no other replies, then I have a copy, and could post or email
it to you.

Kevin

> 
> A while back someone had mentioned that they'd compiled a DOS version of
> the Supnik emulator.  Is it available for FTP somewhere?
> 
> 				Zane
> | Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
> | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
> | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
> |     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
> |                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
> |               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |
> 


-- 
Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD
mcquiggi@sfu.ca


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 19 08:50:09 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: <199812190209.SAA29150@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from "dave dameron" at Dec 18, 98 06:09:47 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 19 09:01:15 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To:  from "Sam Ismail" at Dec 18, 98 08:29:39 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 19 09:09:22 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To:  from "Doug Yowza" at Dec 18, 98 10:35:22 pm
Message-ID: 

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From allisonp at world.std.com  Sat Dec 19 12:12:49 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Couple oddball RSX-11M questions
Message-ID: <199812191812.AA02212@world.std.com>

<>house.   Using the network I should be able to transfer those Disk Images
<>over to the PDP-11.  However, can I mount those disk images under RSX-11M
<>4.2 like I can RT-11 disk images under RT-11?  If so what do I need to do
<>this?

Check out Megan's (I think it's www.world.std.com/~mbg) page I think she 
has something you can use for that.

<>Second question.  As I understand it, using DECnet it is possible to use
<>the tape drive on VAX from another VAX.

Yes but that is mostly vax/vms to vax/vms.  I use it all the time as I have 
a TLZ04, Tk50, TLZ30 on three different machine and I mount and use tapes 
across the net and even do backups that way.  You do that with 7machines
and 3 drives.

<>  Well, the VAX in the house doesn't
<>have a tapedrive, and I've not run the network out to the garage.  So is i
<>possible to have the VAX access the TK-50 on the PDP-11/73 via DECnet?

Put a tape on the vax. ;)  I think RSX decnet may not do that.

 by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA19339; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 10:04:22 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 19 Dec 1998 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote:
> Hmmm... From what I've seen of the Mindstorms set available in the UK, 
> it's not that great. What really annoys me is that it'll do a lot more 
> than they tell you about in the instructions (based on the stuff I've 
> read on the web). And I _HATE_ products like that.
> 
> And don't tell me 'Oh, it's aimed at children who couldn't understand 
> things like that'. I would guess it's aimed at 10-12year olds at least. 
> At that age, I was designing with TTL, and starting to look at 
> microprocessors, and I didn't have an introductory book to help me.

Wait...but doesn't that sort of defeat your own point? Why should these
kids stick to the instructions? They have heads on their shoulders, they
can experiment on their own.

> But worse still is the fact that back in the early years of this century, 
> it appears that boys - say about 12-15 years old - were expected to try 
> woodwork, metalwork, using a lathe, wiring electric lights, bells, 
> telephones, etc, making induction coils, etc, etc, etc. Things that I bet 
> few boys ever try today. And yet, today, it could be made a little easier 
> for them.

There's little need to make coils these days, and wiring electric lights
isn't very fun when one can play around with things millions of times more
complex.

> There is the secondary issue  with the Mindstorms kit that I don't like 
> things that are tied to PCs, but that's another matter.

Indeed. Since when do I need to upgrade my computer to use LEGOs? (I would
have to -- the PC software has rather hefty system requirements)

> think) are 2 'toys' that I've kept, and I don't mind admitting I still 
> use them...

I've seen many very useful machines made from metal erector sets.

----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sat Dec 19 12:45:33 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:22 2005
Subject: Couple oddball RSX-11M questions
In-Reply-To: <981219102542.2f000af6@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: 

>>Now the first quesiton is this.  I've got a bunch of RL01's and RL02's with
>>software on them, and when I got them I backed them up onto my Linux box so
>>I could play with them in the Emulator without having RL01/02 drives in the
>>house.   Using the network I should be able to transfer those Disk Images
>>over to the PDP-11.  However, can I mount those disk images under RSX-11M
>>4.2 like I can RT-11 disk images under RT-11?  If so what do I need to do
>>this?
>
>If you wanted access to the RT-11 files on the RL02, you'd use FLX.  Type
>HELP FLX at the MCR prompt.

I was able to use FLX to transfer a couple files over to a ESDI Hard Drive
that is RT-11 formatted.  I don't currently have any RL drives attached,
and am trying to avoid that.

>I suspect that you want to access the "raw" image, though.  If you were
>using 11M+, you'd do a MOU /FOR, then you'd be able to block-address
>the drive as the file "DL0:", etc.  Under 11M you don't even have to do
>the /FOR (though you may have to do an ALLocate.)

Well, I got a couple of RL01 images transferred over to the PDP-11 and
using RSX-11M 4.2 I've looked through the manuals for MOUnt, ALLocate, and
ASSign.  I also spent a bunch of time experimenting this morning, but
failed to come up with a solution.

>>have a tapedrive, and I've not run the network out to the garage.  So is it
>>possible to have the VAX access the TK-50 on the PDP-11/73 via DECnet?
>
>FAL on RSX won't let you do so.  But you could upgrade to 11M+ 4.5, and
>use VCP to make a tape image.  But even this isn't very smooth.
>
>My favorite solution would be sneakernet - pull the drive and controller
>and move it !

Slight problem, I wanted to access the drive from a VS3100, all my Q-Bus
machines have TK-50's :^)  Oh, well, I knew this one was a little far
fetched.

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sat Dec 19 12:56:43 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: RSX-11M and TAR
Message-ID: 

Looking through the Metalab (used to be Sunsite) PDP-11 archives, I
realized that probably the easiest way to get some of the RSX-11 DECUS
stuff over to my system would be to have FTP tar it up for me and I could
then send the resulting tar to the PDP-11.  This of course assumes that
there is a way to un-tar it once I get it to the PDP-11.

So, does anyone know of a good TAR program for RSX-11M that can be used to
un-tar a tar file?  Or am I off in left field somewhere again :^)

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From dpeschel at u.washington.edu  Sat Dec 19 12:53:47 1998
From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (D. Peschel)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To:  from "Tony Duell" at Dec 19, 98 03:09:22 pm
Message-ID: <199812191853.KAA06456@saul4.u.washington.edu>

> Hmmm... From what I've seen of the Mindstorms set available in the UK, 
> it's not that great. What really annoys me is that it'll do a lot more 
> than they tell you about in the instructions (based on the stuff I've 
> read on the web). And I _HATE_ products like that.

I've never used them (or seen the Web page).  However, there is hope.
In the thread about Xerox and Smalltalk, I think someone (Hans P.?)
mentioned Squeak.  (I'm not going to check my archives now, since my
compiler is due in a couple of hours and the final exam comes right
after that!)  Squeak is a free version of Smalltalk, very faithful to
the original Xerox plan, with full source.  (It was written at Apple in
an apparemtn momemt of generosity -- I wish the Mac weren't such a closed
platform to get a compiler for.)

What does this have to do with Lego Mindstorms?  Well, someone is working on
a Smalltalk interface to Lego Mindstorms!  (Unless my brain is fried, that
is.) I forget if it requires a commercial Smalltalk, but I suspect people
are interested in porting it to Squeak.  I couldn't find the details -- the
articles seem to have expired.  And I'm not going through my files (see
above -- anyway they're at home and I'm not).  But this is a very good sign
for education.

Besides, I really like Squeak.  I hated VisualWorks (an expanded, refined
descendant of the original Xerox Smalltalk) when I used it in class.  But
Squeak is a lot more manageable, and it helps to be able to tinker instead
of worrying about doing homework.

I really wish someone would write an Alto or other Xerox workstation
simulator, but until then, Squeak may be the best approximation to using an
Alto.  It really doesn't come close though.  (It has color and much more
processing power; it lacks the underlying Xerox Executive; and there's no
5-key set!)

> There is the secondary issue  with the Mindstorms kit that I don't like 
> things that are tied to PCs, but that's another matter.

If the interface is ported to Squeak, you should be able to use your UNIX
machine or whatever else you can manage.

> I'll not be getting one - I gave away my lego years ago. Now, 
> Fischertechnik and Meccano (roughly the UK version of the Errector Set, I 
> think) are 2 'toys' that I've kept, and I don't mind admitting I still 
> use them...

Have you built a differential analyzer yet?

-- Derek


From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com  Sat Dec 19 13:04:03 1998
From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: RSX-11M and TAR
Message-ID: <981219140403.2f000b92@trailing-edge.com>

>So, does anyone know of a good TAR program for RSX-11M that can be used to
>un-tar a tar file?  Or am I off in left field somewhere again :^)

Absolutely - it's distribued with DECUS C.  See, for example, 

ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/rsx/decus/rsx89a/005014/untar.c

for the C version, or

ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/rsx/decus/rsx89a/005003/untar.bas

for a PDP-11 BASIC version.

If you'd prefer physical BRU tapes of various DECUS SIG items, I can
arrange to run off copies from the masters here.  There's also a CD-ROM
in the works.

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927


From ddameron at earthlink.net  Sat Dec 19 14:08:45 1998
From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
Message-ID: <199812192008.MAA07169@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

Hi Tony and all,
At 03:09 PM 12/19/98 +0000, you wrote:

>One of the most depressing things I've done recently was buy a number of 
>books (some second-hand, some new) with titles like 'The boy mechanic', 
>'Every boy his own mechanic', etc. 
>
>OK, so the titles are sexist, and I do believe that's wrong, and that 
>there's no reason why girls shouldn't also be interested in this sort of 
>thing. 
>
>But worse still is the fact that back in the early years of this century, 
>it appears that boys - say about 12-15 years old - were expected to try 
>woodwork, metalwork, using a lathe, wiring electric lights, bells, 
>telephones, etc, making induction coils, etc, etc, etc. Things that I bet 
>few boys ever try today. And yet, today, it could be made a little easier 
>for them.
>
I have some of these books, and it always amazes me what "boys" were doing
back then - all the things you mentioned and more. One day I hope to start
aluminum casting. Alfred Morgan was writing books like this at least until
up to the 50's. Just today I bought a 1927 book on radio construction and
repair. Last week I listened to a tube/valve regenerative SW receiver.

OFF topic:
Max wrote:
There's little need to make coils these days, and wiring electric lights
isn't very fun when one can play around with things millions of times more
complex.

Hey! I've wound several experimental coils this year. Did you wonder _how_ a
transformer works? I know the equations to design one, but am asking
something more fundamental. The secondary winding of a transformer has
voltage induced in it, but what couples the energy to it from the primary
winding's magnetic field?
(Hint: The magnetic field can be zero at the secondary)

As for wiring lights, Christmas tree light strings here are now cheap series
strings although the bulbs may have some wire turns wrapped around the leads
to prevent a open circuit if a bulb burns out. This often don't work, so the
entire string is usually thrown away, like many modern ASIC type computer boards

END off topic
-Dave





From djenner at halcyon.com  Sat Dec 19 14:20:23 1998
From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: DOS Version of Supnik PDP-11 Emulator?
References: 
Message-ID: <367C0A87.88A1F170@halcyon.com>

There's a 32-bit version at
  ftp://www.halcyon.com/pub/users/djenner/pdp11.zip

You need to run this in a DOS box under Windows 95/98/NT.
You might be able to run it under Windows 3.1 and Win32?

If you want to run it under "pure" DOS (without Windows),
you'll need some sort of DOS-extender, I believe.
You might have to compile and link it specially for such
a situation; I'm not sure about that.  If someone knows,
and can tell me how to do it, I'll be glad to do it.
However, such DOS-extenders usually are licensed on a
per-machine basis.

Dave

"Zane H. Healy" wrote:
> 
> A while back someone had mentioned that they'd compiled a DOS version of
> the Supnik emulator.  Is it available for FTP somewhere?
> 
>                                 Zane
> | Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
> | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
> | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
> |     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
> |                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
> |               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com  Sat Dec 19 14:28:07 1998
From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
Message-ID: <981219152807.2f000ba8@trailing-edge.com>

>>But worse still is the fact that back in the early years of this century, 
>>it appears that boys - say about 12-15 years old - were expected to try 
>>woodwork, metalwork, using a lathe, wiring electric lights, bells, 
>>telephones, etc, making induction coils, etc, etc, etc. Things that I bet 
>>few boys ever try today. And yet, today, it could be made a little easier 
>>for them.

Max wrote:
>There's little need to make coils these days, and wiring electric lights
>isn't very fun when one can play around with things millions of times more
>complex.

Unfortunately, lots of "fundamental" knowledge gets left out when you
skip electric lights and go to things much more complex.

Clarke's law says that "Any sufficiently advanced technology is
indistinguishable from magic", but as far as I'm concerned light
bulbs, batteries, and wires still have an element of magic.  The
concept that by connecting these two pieces of copper, I can make
a bulb elsewhere glow, is magic in itself.  (Even more magical is 
what happens when you short out the turns of a hand-cranked magneto 
and try turning it...)  One has to understand these basic elements
of technological magic if anything worthwhile is going to be done!

Unfortunately, in today's world of glitzy computer graphics and
sound everywhere, many kids feel that somehow unless their creations
live up to to Hollywood standards that they aren't worthwhile.  And this
attitude is completely wrong.  But talking with educators from
the local kindergarten right up to the Provost of Caltech, I've
come to realize that this is a very real obstacle to teaching
the fundamentals of not only technical subjects, but also of artistic
subjects.

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927


From djenner at halcyon.com  Sat Dec 19 14:30:21 1998
From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: DOS Version of Supnik PDP-11 Emulator?
References:  <367C0A87.88A1F170@halcyon.com>
Message-ID: <367C0CDD.53A47B76@halcyon.com>

Sorry, make that
  ftp://ftp.halcyon.com/pub/users/djenner/pdp11.zip

Interesting that the "www" worked for me in my browser, but
when I clicked on it in my mail, it wouldn't?

"David C. Jenner" wrote:
> 
> There's a 32-bit version at
>   ftp://www.halcyon.com/pub/users/djenner/pdp11.zip
> 
> You need to run this in a DOS box under Windows 95/98/NT.
> You might be able to run it under Windows 3.1 and Win32?
> 
> If you want to run it under "pure" DOS (without Windows),
> you'll need some sort of DOS-extender, I believe.
> You might have to compile and link it specially for such
> a situation; I'm not sure about that.  If someone knows,
> and can tell me how to do it, I'll be glad to do it.
> However, such DOS-extenders usually are licensed on a
> per-machine basis.
> 
> Dave
> 
> "Zane H. Healy" wrote:
> >
> > A while back someone had mentioned that they'd compiled a DOS version of
> > the Supnik emulator.  Is it available for FTP somewhere?
> >
> >                                 Zane
> > | Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
> > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
> > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
> > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
> > |     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
> > |                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
> > |               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From djenner at halcyon.com  Sat Dec 19 14:37:10 1998
From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: DOS Version of Supnik PDP-11 Emulator?
References:  <367C0A87.88A1F170@halcyon.com> <367C0CDD.53A47B76@halcyon.com>
Message-ID: <367C0E76.17CA936D@halcyon.com>

Double sorry, but really interesting.  It's case sensitive in one
place, but not in the other?  This should work:

  ftp://ftp.halcyon.com/pub/users/djenner/PDP11.zip

If this doesn't work, just go to the directory.  It's really there,
I promise!

Dave

"David C. Jenner" wrote:
> 
> Sorry, make that
>   ftp://ftp.halcyon.com/pub/users/djenner/pdp11.zip
> 
> Interesting that the "www" worked for me in my browser, but
> when I clicked on it in my mail, it wouldn't?
> 
> "David C. Jenner" wrote:
> >
> > There's a 32-bit version at
> >   ftp://www.halcyon.com/pub/users/djenner/pdp11.zip
> >
> > You need to run this in a DOS box under Windows 95/98/NT.
> > You might be able to run it under Windows 3.1 and Win32?
> >
> > If you want to run it under "pure" DOS (without Windows),
> > you'll need some sort of DOS-extender, I believe.
> > You might have to compile and link it specially for such
> > a situation; I'm not sure about that.  If someone knows,
> > and can tell me how to do it, I'll be glad to do it.
> > However, such DOS-extenders usually are licensed on a
> > per-machine basis.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > "Zane H. Healy" wrote:
> > >
> > > A while back someone had mentioned that they'd compiled a DOS version of
> > > the Supnik emulator.  Is it available for FTP somewhere?
> > >
> > >                                 Zane
> > > | Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
> > > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
> > > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
> > > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
> > > |     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
> > > |                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
> > > |               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From ai705 at osfn.org  Sat Dec 19 14:37:12 1998
From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Squeak Copyright (Was - Re: Another ~1960 computer kit)
In-Reply-To: <199812191853.KAA06456@saul4.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 19 Dec 1998, D. Peschel wrote:

> after that!)  Squeak is a free version of Smalltalk, very faithful to
> the original Xerox plan, with full source.  (It was written at Apple in
> an apparemtn momemt of generosity -- I wish the Mac weren't such a closed
> platform to get a compiler for.)


Submitted for your approval, the following:


About Squeak in General
--------------------------------
             Squeak 2.2
    (c) 1996 Apple Computer, Inc.
     (c) 1997, 1998 Walt Disney
       ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.


Does anybody know why Mickey's four-fingered paw prints are on it? The 
license agreement is strictly Apple and what little is mentioned in the 
history of Squeak, does not account for the Disney copyright.


> What does this have to do with Lego Mindstorms?  Well, someone is working on
> a Smalltalk interface to Lego Mindstorms!  (Unless my brain is fried, that
> is.) I forget if it requires a commercial Smalltalk, but I suspect people
> are interested in porting it to Squeak.  I couldn't find the details -- the
> articles seem to have expired.  And I'm not going through my files (see
> above -- anyway they're at home and I'm not).  But this is a very good sign
> for education.

Squeak is currently being ported to a lot of things, particularly small 
things. There is a WinCE version and a strong push to put it on the Pilot.


                                                   -- Steve


From dann at greycat.com  Sat Dec 19 15:03:32 1998
From: dann at greycat.com (Dann Lunsford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Language and wiered people
In-Reply-To: <19981217193142.7356.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <199812192110.NAA27422@mxu1.u.washington.edu>

In <19981217193142.7356.qmail@brouhaha.com>, on 12/17/98
   at 07:31 PM, Eric Smith  said:

>Hans wrote:
>> I know, you are a strange guy, but I didn't expect this.
>> Say, is there at least ONE (1) ordinary person around
>> on this list ?

Heh.  My usual reaction to this sort of question is "Who would  *want* to
be?"  I have long maintained that. given the state that so-called normal
people have gotten the world into, it is an honor and a privilege to be
called "wierd".  Besides, it's a great way to get away with anything; do
whatever you want, people just shake their heads, and say "Oh, that's just
Dann, he's wierd".

:-).


-- 
Dann Lunsford      * The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil *
dann@greycat.com   * is that men of good will do nothing.  --  Cicero *
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 19 14:56:26 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To:  from "Max Eskin" at Dec 19, 98 01:14:06 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 19 15:03:23 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: <199812191853.KAA06456@saul4.u.washington.edu> from "D. Peschel" at Dec 19, 98 10:53:47 am
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From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Sat Dec 19 15:50:22 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Debian Linux
Message-ID: <367C1F9D.4487E664@bigfoot.com>

In case no one else has located this source of info for the Debian
version of Linux, you can go to http://www.debian.org/ for all sorts of
info. Wanna guess where I found it? On a links page at
http://www.dorkbot.com/ (yes this is a real site).





From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Sat Dec 19 15:49:50 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: <199812192145.QAA00192@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA11183; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 10:55:10 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 19 Dec 1998 dpeschel@u.washington.edu wrote:
> Besides, I really like Squeak.  I hated VisualWorks (an expanded, refined
> descendant of the original Xerox Smalltalk) when I used it in class.  But
> Squeak is a lot more manageable, and it helps to be able to tinker instead
> of worrying about doing homework.

Well, I downloaded both Squeak and 'Smalltalk Express'. Squeak is
certainly more complete, SE tries to be an IDE of Smalltalk which isn't
what it's about. However, it seems that both use lots of RAM. I often get
out-of-memory errors when trying to multitask under Win95 with either of
these running.

----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Sat Dec 19 15:53:05 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: <199812192145.QAA00206@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA15935; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:29:54 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 19 Dec 1998 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote:
> Unfortunately, lots of "fundamental" knowledge gets left out when you
> skip electric lights and go to things much more complex.

OK, now I have the feeling I may have forgotten something. When you wire
some bulbs in series, and one burns out, they all fail. If they are wired
in ||, and one burns out, the others keep burning. What more is there?
----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Sat Dec 19 15:59:04 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: <199812192145.QAA00221@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA23002; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:24:36 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 19 Dec 1998 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote:

> Wiring electric lights isn't much fun. Designing and building an internal 
> step-by-step telephone exchange most certainly is. So is building 
> relay-logic systems.

I have never seen anything to the effect of relay systems. They are often
brought up on this list, and  I have seen relay computers that looked
quite impressive. But I have _never_ seen any explanation of how a system
based on relays works. Even in the Soviet Union, where projects like
'build your own RC boat' were common in magazines, I don't recall seeing
instructions on building a telephone exchange.


----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From donm at cts.com  Sat Dec 19 16:09:10 1998
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: <981219152807.2f000ba8@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 19 Dec 1998 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote:

snip
 
> Unfortunately, lots of "fundamental" knowledge gets left out when you
> skip electric lights and go to things much more complex.

Somewhat like grade school children using calculators instead of 
really learning mathematics.
						 - don

> Clarke's law says that "Any sufficiently advanced technology is
> indistinguishable from magic", but as far as I'm concerned light
> bulbs, batteries, and wires still have an element of magic.  The
> concept that by connecting these two pieces of copper, I can make
> a bulb elsewhere glow, is magic in itself.  (Even more magical is 
> what happens when you short out the turns of a hand-cranked magneto 
> and try turning it...)  One has to understand these basic elements
> of technological magic if anything worthwhile is going to be done!
> 
> Unfortunately, in today's world of glitzy computer graphics and
> sound everywhere, many kids feel that somehow unless their creations
> live up to to Hollywood standards that they aren't worthwhile.  And this
> attitude is completely wrong.  But talking with educators from
> the local kindergarten right up to the Provost of Caltech, I've
> come to realize that this is a very real obstacle to teaching
> the fundamentals of not only technical subjects, but also of artistic
> subjects.
> 
> -- 
>  Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com
>  Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
>  7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
>  Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927
> 

    donm@cts.com
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
    Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives
         Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society
       Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology.
     Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard  (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
        see old system support at  http://www.psyber.com/~tcj
visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://cws86.kyamk.fi/mirrors/cpm
   	 with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm




From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 19 15:31:35 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: <199812192008.MAA07169@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from "dave dameron" at Dec 19, 98 12:08:45 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 19 15:44:09 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: <981219152807.2f000ba8@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Dec 19, 98 03:28:07 pm
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 19 15:46:52 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Language and wiered people
In-Reply-To: <199812192110.NAA27422@mxu1.u.washington.edu> from "Dann Lunsford" at Dec 19, 98 01:03:32 pm
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 19 17:36:41 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To:  from "Max Eskin" at Dec 19, 98 04:53:05 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 19 17:42:55 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To:  from "Max Eskin" at Dec 19, 98 04:59:04 pm
Message-ID: 

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From marvin at rain.org  Sat Dec 19 18:22:41 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
References: 
Message-ID: <367C4351.9D7CB856@rain.org>

Tony Duell wrote:
> 
> One of the most depressing things I've done recently was buy a number of
> books (some second-hand, some new) with titles like 'The boy mechanic',
> 'Every boy his own mechanic', etc.
> 
> OK, so the titles are sexist, and I do believe that's wrong, and that
> there's no reason why girls shouldn't also be interested in this sort of
> thing.


I don't know what it is like in the UK, but here in the states, this
"sexist" revolution seems to be more of a we vs them type of confrontation
rather than working together.  Publications such as "Womans this" and "That
for Women" seem to be coming more popular, while "Mens this" and "That for
Men" seem to be decried as sexist. The battle for "equality" seems to be
more lip service and rationalization than anything else.


Some of the early electronic stories (Carl and Jerry from Popular
Electronics for one) seemed oriented towards building a curiosity about how
things work.  I found I enjoyed very much the early Tom Swift books for much
the same reason.  Back in 1975-76, the first very low cost chips started to
become available, and made it easier to work with almost state-of-the-art
stuff.  I remember a special order of the 6800, 8 memory chips, and I
believe a couple of support chips being made available for $20 or so
(cosmetic rejects.)


From gram at cnct.com  Sat Dec 19 18:45:44 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: alt.folklore.computers
References: <199812191629.LAA05925@monmouth.com>
Message-ID: <367C48B8.66BCCDF@cnct.com>

Bill Pechter wrote:
> 
> >
> >       Is anyone besides me having trouble with alt.folklore.computers?
> >
> >
> >                                                               Regards
> >                                                               Charlie Fox
> >
> 
> Works here in New Jersey...

Depends on your ISP.  Mine (The Connection, in Jersey City) gets
maybe 5% of the postings on a real good day, usually less.  Of
course that's not just alt.folklore.computers, that's every
newsgroup in Usenet.  I'm just biding my time with Dejanews
until the town allows Comcast to hook me up.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From jpl15 at netcom.com  Sat Dec 19 19:14:03 1998
From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 19 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:

>But worse still is the fact that back in the early years of this century, 
>it appears that boys - say about 12-15 years old - were expected to try 
>woodwork, metalwork, using a lathe, wiring electric lights, bells, 
>telephones, etc, making induction coils, etc, etc, etc. Things that I bet 
>few boys ever try today. And yet, today, it could be made a little easier 
>for them.
>

   Beacuse, (I think..) at that time America and the UK and much of
Europe were still quite agrarian-based economies, and there was not
the universal availablility of technology...  also consider that,
unless you were bound for college (the minority then) by 15 or 16 you
were most likely already working full-time.  One of my elderly
friends, deceased now regretfully, had in his workshop a nice little
drillpress which he had made, *castings (iron!) and all* in 9th
grade, age 14, as a normal quarter's shop assignment. This was in the
mid twenties. 

  I teach Ham Radio and Science/Technology courses to various 
groups, Scouts or 'disadvantaged' kids.  It is sometimes very 
disheartening to cope with (compete with) Nintendo and MTV froth 
culture. But there are still some scientists and engineers and 
mechanical whizzes out there.  Usually my Wysock Model 5 Tesla coil 
gets their attention...  48" wonderful hissing blue arcs on a dry 
day..  and then I teach them how to *make* one...  from the basics up. 

> 
> I've never tried it, but I believe that getting a _good_ casting from 
> aluminium is not that easy.
        ^
        ^

  I see your problem, Tony. A good flux of caustic potash in gum 
spirits of Arabia will eliminate that extra "i", giving a very 
tractable and inclusion-free melt.

> 
> Yep, those old books on radio are fun. A lot of them (certainly some of 
> the RCA ones) are now available as reprints. I buy just about every one 
> that I see.
> 
> > There's little need to make coils these days, and wiring electric lights
> > isn't very fun when one can play around with things millions of times more
> > complex.

   The average intelligent 8/9-year-old is usually awestruck the
first time he/she lays out a battery, knife-switch, and light on a
scrap board and makes a circuit that works...  the older ones get 555
timers, 9-volt batteries, and LEDs...  same thing. 


> > 

>  Hey! I've wound several experimental coils this year. Did you
wonder _how_ a
> > transformer works? I know the equations to design one, but am asking

  No one knows *exactly* what magnetism is, tho we know how it 
*works*. Until then, transformers are fundamentally enigmatic.

> 
> It may just be me, but I never like using equations to _explain_ 
> anything. Sure they're useful tools when you come to design a transformer 
> (or whatever), but you should be able to understand the operation of the 
> transformer using qualitative arguements.

  One can, using well known mathematical functions, equations, and 
models, express a 5-valve superhet radio... if done skilfully, when 
realized physically, the radio will work. (Been there; done that; 
college midterm)  But I'm the type who, if a radio is wanted, will 
rummage in the junkbox, see what's buried in the shelves in the 
workshop, and tinker together something that most likely will decode 
WEFAX weather data from satellites...  because I experiment, tweak, 
adjust, make magic smoke leak out, etc.  Thus my attraction to 
Vintage Computers, and other Fancy Stuff.

> 
> 
> You mean people don't get little packets of replacement bulbs and play 
> 'hunt the dud' any more. That used to be a ritual each winter here for 
> many years.
> 
> Those little electrostic field detectors (aka 'Voltstick') took all the 
> fun out of it ;-).


  My household doesn't celebrate Xnas, but years ago I *did* make 
up a series-lamp socket attachment for my Volt-Ohmmeter...  it was 
popular in the neighborhood around the Holidays.

> 
> As did the ARD Newtonsday lights. I use LEDs - 16 of them, linked up to 
> a parallel port on a PDP11 (DR11-K) or PERQ (I have PERQlink...). 
> Computer-controlled lights - classic-computer-controlled lights are 
> probably on-topic here...
> 
> -tony

  OT: Jingle bells realized on the LQ02 Dot matrix printer on the 
11/73...  I wanted to get it done and on my website before 
Newtonsday, but, you know how it goes..... it's the Thought that counts.


  Cheers and Best of the Season


  John


From mbg at world.std.com  Sat Dec 19 19:38:30 1998
From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Couple oddball RSX-11M questions
Message-ID: <199812200138.AA07812@world.std.com>


<>house.   Using the network I should be able to transfer those Disk Images
<>over to the PDP-11.  However, can I mount those disk images under RSX-11M
<>4.2 like I can RT-11 disk images under RT-11?  If so what do I need to do
<>this?

>Check out Megan's (I think it's www.world.std.com/~mbg) page I think she 
>has something you can use for that.

Thanks for the nod, Allison, but my file transfer program is RT<->RT only
at this time... I've never found someone knowledgable *and* interested
enough to write the RSX peer for the program.  Actually - some of the RSX
stuff is already in my source, but I'm not an RSX-heavy, so I've never
built or tested it.  Then again, with TCP/IP being available, my program
seems like a moot exercise (though it was and is a lot of fun to work on). 
I have been thinking about a Digital Unix and/or Linux peer for it.

					Megan Gentry
					Former RT-11 Developer

+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL   | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group |          (home):  mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation    | addresses need '@' in place of '!'  |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43   | URL:     http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | 
| Nashua, NH 03062               | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055                 |  required." - mbg                   |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+


From mbg at world.std.com  Sat Dec 19 19:49:05 1998
From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Some pdp-11s and a uVax available
Message-ID: <199812200149.AA12017@world.std.com>

This was posted on a newsgroup - contact the address in the
posting, not me.

- - - - -
> I have two PDP-11's and one Microvax II which I need to sell or donate
> (maybe give away).  After doing a search I came across your site and
thought
> you might know of someone who might be interested in these machines.  They
> have worked hard for our hotels and need a new home.  I appreciate your
> time.

Keven Combs
IS Director
HSC-Hotels
kcombs@bellsouth.net
- - - - -

					Megan Gentry
					Former RT-11 Developer

+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL   | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group |          (home):  mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation    | addresses need '@' in place of '!'  |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43   | URL:     http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | 
| Nashua, NH 03062               | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055                 |  required." - mbg                   |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+




From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Sat Dec 19 19:46:06 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: OT: pushing buttons, not understanding (was RE: Another ~1960 computer kit)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <001801be2bba$8250d700$80f438cb@a.davie>

> > Unfortunately, lots of "fundamental" knowledge gets left out when you
> > skip electric lights and go to things much more complex.
>
> Somewhat like grade school children using calculators instead of
> really learning mathematics.



This is why, as curator of the Slide Rule Trading Post (SRTP), I often
receive comments along the lines that it's a real shame that slide rules are
no longer used in schools.  They are a perfect tool for developing an
understanding of logarithms and how to use them.  They also make you think
about the answer (what magnitude you expect) and help in mental estimates,
rather than blindly relying on the numbers that come up on the screen.

I'd still like to see slide rules return to schools.



You can visit the SRTP at
http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/
I have a pretty dang neat Java slide rule (IMHO), too, at
http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/javaslide/javaslide.html

I recommend a visit to JavaSlide, at least :)

Cheers
A



From mbg at world.std.com  Sat Dec 19 20:10:31 1998
From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: More -11 systems
Message-ID: <199812200210.AA20349@world.std.com>

Again, contact the person listed in the post, not me:

- - - - -
I have the following warm and not-so-friendly creatures available free
to good home (they've had their shots and are eager to please):

Cards:
1 DLV2
1 TMM10010
1 M8186
7 USDC 1101

Systems:
1 PDP-? containing the following cards:
	1 TMM10010
	1 8186
	1 DLV2	
	Appears to have a QBUS
	USDC Cabinet

1 PDP-? containing the following cards:
	1 TMM10010
	1 8186
	1 DLV2
	Appears to have a QBUS
	USDC Cabinet

The two systems power up and produce the "@" prompt.  Sorry, there are
no disks for these systems.  Sorry, I know nothing more than the above. 
We have been cleaning house and I've asked that these items be saved for
distribution to a cheerful, happy household!

The systems are located at U.S. Design in Columbia, MD.  I would prefer
that you come by and pick these systems up, all or in part.  First-come,
first-served!

If you're interested, please call me at (410)-381-3000 x130 to set up a
pick up time.

Thanks,

Chuck McCrobie (** MAD VAX **)
- - - - -

					Megan Gentry
					Former RT-11 Developer

+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL   | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group |          (home):  mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation    | addresses need '@' in place of '!'  |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43   | URL:     http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | 
| Nashua, NH 03062               | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055                 |  required." - mbg                   |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+



From wpe101 at banet.net  Sat Dec 19 20:15:01 1998
From: wpe101 at banet.net (Will Emerson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: I don't believe this spam I just got!
References: <13412743182.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>
Message-ID: <367C5DA5.385BF774@banet.net>

Who are they? I want to be sure I avoid doing any business with them!

                                                     Will


"Daniel A. Seagraves" wrote:
> 
> [SPAMMER]
> 
> So call them and educate them as to the error of their ways, and inform them
> that you may have bought an xyzzy from them, but they lost the sale since
> they spammed.  Then tell them you told an entire mailing list they were a bunch
> of dirtballs, and mention the 250+ potential customers they lost, and they'll
> stop spamming real quicklike.
> -------


From ddameron at earthlink.net  Sat Dec 19 20:31:18 1998
From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Electrical knowledge, was Another ~1960 computer kit
Message-ID: <199812200231.SAA13534@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

I guess this post will also show how weird I am.
At 09:31 PM 12/19/98 +0000, Tony wrote:
>> >But worse still is the fact that back in the early years of this century, 
>> >it appears that boys - say about 12-15 years old - were expected to try 
>> >woodwork, metalwork, using a lathe, wiring electric lights, bells, 
>> >telephones, etc, making induction coils, etc, etc, etc. Things that I bet 
>> >few boys ever try today. And yet, today, it could be made a little easier 
>> >for them.
>> >
>> I have some of these books, and it always amazes me what "boys" were doing
>
>Some of them are available as reprints from Lindsay Publications (in the 
>UK, available from Camden Miniature Steam Services).
>
Lindsay is at www.lindsaybks.com. I have many too. Have tried to talk him
into having more computer books besides the "How to repair and upgrade your
PC" type.
The "Practical Electronics" TTL calculator would be good if he could do
something like that.

>> aluminum casting. Alfred Morgan was writing books like this at least until
>
>I've never tried it, but I believe that getting a _good_ casting from 
>aluminium is not that easy. Sure it's an easy metal to melt, but it also 
>picks up all sorts of garbage very easily, leading to a terrible casting. 
>Iron/steel is supposed to be easier to cast - if you can melt it.

I've read the next step up from aluminum, copper or brass, can have its own
problems too.
>
>> 
>> OFF topic:
>> Max wrote:
>> There's little need to make coils these days, and wiring electric lights
>> isn't very fun when one can play around with things millions of times more
>> complex.
>> 
>> Hey! I've wound several experimental coils this year. Did you wonder _how_ a
>
>This year? This week, more like :-). 
>
>> transformer works? I know the equations to design one, but am asking
>
>It may just be me, but I never like using equations to _explain_ 
>anything. Sure they're useful tools when you come to design a transformer 
>(or whatever), but you should be able to understand the operation of the 
>transformer using qualitative arguements.

Well, more often than "this year", actually. I like practice and
experiments, but sometime require some equations/theory. Think of a
transformer secondary wound with coax cable. What would happen...
>
>> As for wiring lights, Christmas tree light strings here are now cheap series
>> strings although the bulbs may have some wire turns wrapped around the leads
>> to prevent a open circuit if a bulb burns out. This often don't work, so the
>> entire string is usually thrown away, like many modern ASIC type computer
boards
>
>You mean people don't get little packets of replacement bulbs and play 
>'hunt the dud' any more. That used to be a ritual each winter here for 
>many years.

Apparently not much anymore. Don't have a "Voltstick" type of detector yet.
Are they only AC, or can they pick up the charge on a CRT screen?
>
>Those little electrostic field detectors (aka 'Voltstick') took all the 
>fun out of it ;-).
>
And,

>These people didn't have a clue that you could make logic circuits using 
>relay contacts.
>
>Don't get me wrong. I'm totally in favour of digital _electronics_, 
>microcontrollers, FPGAs, etc when they're the right solution. But when I 
>want to make an XOR gate to control the light over the stairs here, you 
>can be sure I'm going to use a couple of changeover switches and nothing 
>more.
And Max wrote:
>
>OK, now I have the feeling I may have forgotten something. When you wire
>some bulbs in series, and one burns out, they all fail. If they are wired
>in ||, and one burns out, the others keep burning. What more is there?

True, series and parallel are basic, but not too interesting if you only
stop there! 2 single-pole double throw (changeover) switches can be wired so
either one can turn a light on or off. Like one switch at the top and one at
the bottom of stairs.
Suppose you need a third switch? A double-pole, double-throw one will work.
When you see how it is wired, you see how any number can be wired. And the
light is now a "parity" indicator! (No when I knew how to wire the switches,
had never heard of the word parity yet.)

Another example, it surprises me how many "electrical" people do not
understand, for example, what happens when one wires speakers in series or
parallel.


>I wonder how many people here have made a light bulb, or a cell/battery 
>from scratch. OK, on this list, quite a few I would guess. Elsewhere, 
>close to 0? What about winding a motor (and that's almost on-topic - one 
>day you're going to have to rebuild an LA36, and carriage motors are 
>neither common nor cheap...)
Yes to all 3.

>You can learn a lot more by actually making something (however poorly it 
>actually performs) than by reading a book or playing with a simulation. 
>The latter are useful as well (particularly the books), but in the end 
>you actually have to try making something.
>
>I heard that a number of physics graduates from, I think US, but it 
>might have been UK, universities were given a battery, some wire, and a 
>bulb of the same voltage as the battery. The task was to light the bulb. 
>An amazing percentage (something like 80%) couldn't do it (and no, there 
>were no tricks).

Sad if true. Thanks for bringing back the memory of a very early experiment
I did. I took apart a flashlight and had the bulb and a D size cell. Both
the bulb and the cell looked like they had one terminal- the metal bump on
the bottom of the bulb and the center metal contact on the top of the D
cell. But when the 2 were connected, the bulb didn't light. So I had to go
back and examine the flashlight more closely, then find some wire. Learning
that way sticks.
-Dave



From yowza at yowza.com  Sat Dec 19 20:31:53 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Squeak Copyright (Was - Re: Another ~1960 computer kit)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 19 Dec 1998, Stephen Dauphin wrote:

> Does anybody know why Mickey's four-fingered paw prints are on it? The 
> license agreement is strictly Apple and what little is mentioned in the 
> history of Squeak, does not account for the Disney copyright.

Probably because Alan Kay and the rest of the formerly Apple Smalltalk
gang are now at Disney.  So is Danny Hillis (Thinking Machines founder). 
Disney now has some very heavy hitting computing talent, and I can't tell
if they plan to do some innovative work in that space, or they just
realized that fun is what motivates these guys, so they put them to work
on theme park stuff. 

-- Doug



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 19 20:55:26 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To:  from "John Lawson" at Dec 19, 98 05:14:03 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 19 21:02:18 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: OT: pushing buttons, not understanding (was RE: Another ~1960 computer kit)
In-Reply-To: <001801be2bba$8250d700$80f438cb@a.davie> from "Andrew Davie" at Dec 20, 98 12:46:06 pm
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 19 21:21:14 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Electrical knowledge, was Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: <199812200231.SAA13534@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from "dave dameron" at Dec 19, 98 06:31:18 pm
Message-ID: 

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From museum at techniche.com  Sat Dec 19 21:41:58 1998
From: museum at techniche.com (Jon Healey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Can I conclude......
Message-ID: <199812200341.WAA02821@chmls05.mediaone.net>

Hi Aaron,

Can I conclude from the lack of a response that I didn't make
the cut for the ASR-33 documentation?

Was I too late or ......??????

Thanks

Jon



>
>Free (*) manuals, maybe some hardware too.
>
>Multiple sets of ASR-33 teletype maintainance volumes and print sets.
>
>Dynex Series 6000 Disk Drive instruction (/maint) manual.
>
>System Industries Model 3040 manual.
>System Industries Modem 3051 print set.
>(I have the OMNIBUS card for these around here someplace too.)
>
>Diablo Series 40 print set & manual.
>
>Plessy PM-80 (or something like that) prints set & manual (I think 
>I have one or two of the cards too), it's OMNIBUS core memory.
>
>Four trays of PDP-11 paper-tape diagnostics.
>
>Some kind of Roytron/Litton OEM punch manual (I need to look at this
>one and make sure it's not something in a DEC box).
>
>PDP11 PAL/EDIT/ODT/PIP/LINK/LIBR manual.
>
>PDP-8/e (ONLY!) maintainance manual Vol 1. (note: old version!)
>
>PDP10 reference handbook. (big)
>
>Decsystem 10 TECO
>
>Decsystem 10 Users Handbook, 2nd ed (big)
>
>EMAIL replies to me, not to the newsgroup or mailing list.
>
>(*):  Free for the cost of shipping.  I will use subjective criteria 
>in resolving between multiple requesters for the same material.  I 
>apologize in advance if I do not personally reply to you.
>
>
>-- 
>Aaron Nabil
>nabil@teleport.com
>



From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au  Sat Dec 19 21:46:33 1998
From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Electrical knowledge, was Another ~1960 computer kit
Message-ID: <01be2bcb$56055ca0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Sunday, 20 December 1998 14:56
Subject: Re: Electrical knowledge, was Another ~1960 computer kit



>Incidentally, in the days of valves, you could light a neon mains tester
>by holding it near (not touching) the line output valve (sweep tube?). A
>very quick test for EHT problems.

A screwdriver (insulated handle!) blade touched to the top cap of the
1S2 would produce a healthy arc when held somewhere near chassis
if the line/eht stage was running.   This practice did not survive the
transition
to solid state devices that disliked the spikes etc it could cause!


>> Another example, it surprises me how many "electrical" people do not
>> understand, for example, what happens when one wires speakers in series
or
>> parallel.

Several non-electrically minded customers of mine now have 1st hand
knowledge
of the effects of this.  1 particular Guy had no less than 8 speakers wired
in a series/parallel MESS
(whether a speaker was series or parallel was determined by it's physical
location in relation
to the audio leads he had running all over the house)   Actual impedance was
around 1 ohm on
the left channel and about 2 on the right.  Result: 1 very dead STK chip
output amp.
Amazingly, it actually worked for about an hour before expiring.
Seems he had done something similar in the past (old fella) with valve based
stuff, and aside
from a little(?) distortion it worked.   I guess that proves that valves
have their advantages.
I suspect the Speaker Transformer on the valve amp could have been used to
boil water though.

Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie
South Australia.
netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au



From altair8800 at hotmail.com  Sat Dec 19 22:15:02 1998
From: altair8800 at hotmail.com (Bob Wood)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: OT: Online auctins an institution?
Message-ID: <19981220041502.10890.qmail@hotmail.com>


>
>No one else has figured out that the real money is in the _information_
>about what sold at auction for what? Ever wonder why Christie's will 
give
>you a catalog of things for auction but will _sell_ you the results? On
>line auctions are here to stay and they open a whole new area of
>opportunity (as this list knows all too well)
>
>--Chuck

This is a very astute observation.
 
I never cease to be amazed by the smarts exhibited by
the contributors to this list.  If we could pool the brainpower
here we could turn Capitalism on it's head. 

But, of course, many of us are not partial to Capitalism
so I guess we'll have to stay poor.

Bob Wood

Bob Wood
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From mbg at world.std.com  Sat Dec 19 22:29:53 1998
From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
Message-ID: <199812200429.AA19204@world.std.com>

ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:

>; Tape player - a trivial music program for the P850
>; Written 1987 by A.R.Duell, and placed in the Public Domain.
>; Reads a paper tape from the standard reader (a Trend HSR500interfaced
>; to the PTR card). The tape contains pairs of bytes which define the
>; pitch (in number of empty loops per half cycle) and duration (in number
>; of cycles). This program produces sound by toggling the LSB of the
>; Digital I/O  (DIOC) unit
>; As few other users know P850 assembler, I'll try and explain the
>; instructions

If I remember correctly, this is exactly how the hackers at Stanford
got the DECsystem-10 to play music, but toggling the low-order bits
of the AC (Bits 30-35) and driving a speaker.  This gave them 6
'voices'.  Someone developed a music compiler and there was a lot
of music entered by various people...

My favorite was 'Bumble Boogie'.

About 15 or so years ago, a friend of mine wrote a compiler for the
same music files in -11 macro, and I (knowing a little more music
than he) entered a number of pieces.  I entered some like Beethoven's
Moonlight Sonata and Joplin's Crush Collision Rag.

I wish I could find that compiler again... I still have LOTS of
the music files.

					Megan Gentry
					Former RT-11 Developer

+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL   | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group |          (home):  mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation    | addresses need '@' in place of '!'  |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43   | URL:     http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | 
| Nashua, NH 03062               | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055                 |  required." - mbg                   |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+



From mbg at world.std.com  Sat Dec 19 22:31:40 1998
From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Can I conclude......
Message-ID: <199812200431.AA20326@world.std.com>

Jon -

	Somewhere in my collection is a set of ASR-33 technical
	manuals (four in the set, if I remember correctly).  I'll
	start searching to see if I can find them...

	On another note, I came across my pdp-8/i maintenance
	manuals (vol.1 and Vol.2) the other day...

					Megan Gentry
					Former RT-11 Developer

+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL   | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group |          (home):  mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation    | addresses need '@' in place of '!'  |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43   | URL:     http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | 
| Nashua, NH 03062               | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055                 |  required." - mbg                   |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+


From donm at cts.com  Sat Dec 19 22:41:00 1998
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 20 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:

BIG Snip! 

> >   I see your problem, Tony. A good flux of caustic potash in gum 
> > spirits of Arabia will eliminate that extra "i", giving a very 
> > tractable and inclusion-free melt.
> 
> Look, I'm a Brit, OK. And yes, I know the extra 'i' is in fact a 
> historical error, but I've always spelt it that way :-)

I have never heard that explanation.  Will you elucidate, please?
 
More BIG snip

						 - don



From roblwill at usaor.net  Sun Dec 20 02:17:13 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Linux or what?
Message-ID: <01be2bf1$260f4440$6b8ea6d1@the-general>

I've been thinking of putting Linux on my laptop.  Thing is, I have a few
questions:

What are the requirements for it?  I was looking at Caldera OpenLinux, and
one of the download files was 30 MB.

My laptop's an 8088 with 640K RAM, CGA, 720k 3.5" floppy, and a 20 MB HD.
Obviously, not big enough.  What I want to know is if I can get some old
version of it, or some "mini version", that still has the newer features,
just in a smaller package.  Or does anyone have an alternative O/S that I
could run on it, besides DOS?

Happy Holidaze
-and-
ThAnX,
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From hansp at digiweb.com  Sun Dec 20 00:16:25 1998
From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: DOS Version of Supnik PDP-11 Emulator?
References:  <367C0A87.88A1F170@halcyon.com>
Message-ID: <367C9639.D95B337D@digiweb.com>

David C. Jenner wrote:
> 
> There's a 32-bit version at
>   ftp://www.halcyon.com/pub/users/djenner/pdp11.zip

Its actually at :

   


_---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___-
Hans B Pufal                          Comprehensive Computer Catalogue
             


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sun Dec 20 01:48:42 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Linux or what?
In-Reply-To: <01be2bf1$260f4440$6b8ea6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: 

>I've been thinking of putting Linux on my laptop.  Thing is, I have a few
>questions:
>
>What are the requirements for it?  I was looking at Caldera OpenLinux, and
>one of the download files was 30 MB.
>
>My laptop's an 8088 with 640K RAM, CGA, 720k 3.5" floppy, and a 20 MB HD.
>Obviously, not big enough.  What I want to know is if I can get some old
>version of it, or some "mini version", that still has the newer features,
>just in a smaller package.  Or does anyone have an alternative O/S that I
>could run on it, besides DOS?

Linux is flat out.

I'm not even sure about ELKS (a reduced Linux for at least 80286
processors.  I'd recommend MINIX if you want a UNIX like OS.  Someone else
will have to point you to where you can get MINIX, I seem to have lost that
info once again (I swear I'm going to have to tatoo it to my forehead if I
ever want to remember).

Off the top of my head about the only other thing I can think of is
CP/M-86, which had been available, but the "Unofficial CP/M Web Page" seems
to have disappeared (did it move?).

There are of course the various flavors of DOS, and if you could find a old
enough copy of GEOS that would provide you with a fairly nice GUI and
applications, however, the company no longer supports the 8088.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Sun Dec 20 02:54:14 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: blueplanet tech page
Message-ID: <199812200854.BAA02878@calico.litterbox.com>

It looks like the problems with www.blue-planet.com/tech have been fixed.  I'm
now able to get in with Internet Exploder 4.0 again.
-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Sun Dec 20 03:13:23 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: blueplanet tech page
In-Reply-To: <199812200854.BAA02878@calico.litterbox.com>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 20 Dec 1998, Jim Strickland wrote:

> It looks like the problems with www.blue-planet.com/tech have been fixed.  I'm
> now able to get in with Internet Exploder 4.0 again.

Hate to "me too" but me too!

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au  Sun Dec 20 05:53:54 1998
From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Linux or what?
Message-ID: <001201be2c0f$6ba8aaa0$2a3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au>


>Off the top of my head about the only other thing I can think of is
>CP/M-86, which had been available, but the "Unofficial CP/M Web Page" seems
>to have disappeared (did it move?).
>


Here is a link to the current location:

http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/



From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au  Sun Dec 20 07:15:04 1998
From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:23 2005
Subject: Genicom 3820 printer info wanted.
Message-ID: <01be2c1a$c21ced00$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>

Hi Folks,

I have acquired a Genicom 3820 High speed serial printer that I'm
hoping to use on my Microvax II.  I think it was previously on a Microvax
2000,
(got that too :^)

As usual, I have no docs whatsoever.
Had a look at the Genicom web site, but nothing there is useful, since this
is
evidently a "Legacy" model.

I need to find some technical info on this, especially dip switch settings,
so it can
be configured to run off a serial port on a Microvax II, or even a DMB32 on
a Vax 6000.    Any additional info is a bonus of course.

Any help appreciated.

Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie
South Australia.
netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au



From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Sun Dec 20 11:18:21 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Electrical knowledge, was Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: <199812201658.LAA00151@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA12159; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:33:12 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 20 Dec 1998 ddameron@earthlink.net wrote:
> Another example, it surprises me how many "electrical" people do not
> understand, for example, what happens when one wires speakers in series or
> parallel.

What _does_ happen?

----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Sun Dec 20 11:30:58 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: <199812201659.LAA00160@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA03868; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 19:12:34 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 20 Dec 1998 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote:
> Are there really people who prefer video games and TV to making things? 
> I've never met any, but that maybe because I grew up making things, and 
> met people with similar interests.

You can't begin to imagine how lucky you are! Around here, I've met only a
dozen or so people who have any interest whatsoever in making things (not
including artists, there are plenty of those). I'm tempted to reduce the
number even further, considering how many of those people have never held
a soldering iron. 

The other problem is that those books tony mentioned which started this
discussion are no longer easily available. What is are stupid little kits
like 'build your own radio' that come with some stencilled cardboard and a
PCB. All you have to do is to cut the cardboard, fold, glue, and stick in
the PCB. You've made a radio. And this way, people miss the point. I think
I missed the point, now that we're having this discussion.

I have one example of a 'do-it-yourself' book from 1935 called 'Making
Things for Fun' by Frederick Collins. There are lots of nice things in the
'Other Books by Fred..' list. Anyway, in this book, there is a chapter on
making a small radio receiver powered off an AC line. And the book says,
"for all ages". We don't have these things anymore, it's hard to learn.

----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From cmcmanis at freegate.com  Sun Dec 20 12:20:28 1998
From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Electrical knowledge, was Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812201658.LAA00151@localhost>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981220101820.00991100@mcmanis.com>

At 12:18 PM 12/20/98 -0500, Max Eskin wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Dec 1998 ddameron@earthlink.net wrote:
>> Another example, it surprises me how many "electrical" people do not
>> understand, for example, what happens when one wires speakers in series or
>> parallel.
>
>What _does_ happen?


You get a reverb effect because the sound comes out of the first speaker
and then the next speaker in series.

Just Kidding! Speakers are inductors, standard forumlas apply. Its more fun
to figure out the impact on an amplifier desgined to drive a particular
impedence.

--Chuck




From ddameron at earthlink.net  Sun Dec 20 12:28:01 1998
From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Electrical knowledge, was Another ~1960 computer kit
Message-ID: <199812201828.KAA18002@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

At 12:18 PM 12/20/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Dec 1998 ddameron@earthlink.net wrote:
>> Another example, it surprises me how many "electrical" people do not
>> understand, for example, what happens when one wires speakers in series or
>> parallel.
>
>What _does_ happen?
Power is divided to the speakers, as a function of power formula's for
series/parallel circuits. The amplifier also has a resultant load. These
considerations can be important for the amp ratings, as well as the speaker
ratings and sound level matching.
-Dave



From foxvideo at wincom.net  Sun Dec 20 13:45:07 1998
From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Electrical knowledge, was Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812201658.LAA00151@localhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981220144507.0079c100@mail.wincom.net>

At 12:18 PM 12/20/1998 -0500, you wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Dec 1998 ddameron@earthlink.net wrote:
>> Another example, it surprises me how many "electrical" people do not
>> understand, for example, what happens when one wires speakers in series or
>> parallel.
>
>What _does_ happen?
>
>----------------------------------------------------
>Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor
>
>
	Two eight ohm speakers in series present a sixteen ohm load to the
amplifier, while two eight ohm speakers in parallel present a four ohm load.
	Also if speakers are wired in series and one goes open circuit for any
reason the whole line goes out. (Like the old Christmas tree lights.)

							Cheers

							Charlie Fox


	                        Charles E. Fox
	               Chas E. Fox Video Productions
		793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada
	email foxvideo@wincom.net   Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo



From jpero at pop.cgocable.net  Sun Dec 20 09:16:36 1998
From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Type 0665?  This is 5.25" FH IBM HD, on topic. :)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199812202011.PAA12747@mail.cgocable.net>

Spec on this pls.  

Can't find this info on 'net even at IBM's.

Thanks!
 
email: jpero@cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.


From red at bears.org  Sun Dec 20 16:01:57 1998
From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Type 0665?  This is 5.25" FH IBM HD, on topic. :)
In-Reply-To: <199812202011.PAA12747@mail.cgocable.net>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 20 Dec 1998 jpero@pop.cgocable.net wrote:

> Can't find this info on 'net even at IBM's.

Try www.storage.ibm.com

they had info on my Type 0663 disks, which are 1.2GB 3.5" HH. I don't see
why they shouldn't, then, have info on the 0665.

-- 
ok
r.					r e d  @  b e a r s . o r g
					===========================
					[ urs longa | vita brevis ]



From allisonp at world.std.com  Sun Dec 20 16:22:23 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Linux or what?
Message-ID: <199812202222.AA23121@world.std.com>


Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981220174430.00976200@mail.30below.com>

At 05:22 PM 12/20/98 -0500, you wrote:

[snip]

>Likely the caldara openlinux can be trimmed of you eliminate the source 
>files.  The problem is not fitting it on the disk but will you have useable 
>disk left?  Finding a 40mb disk for that laptop would be a good idea.

AFAIK, all standard "Linux" is 32-bit (including Caldera's - I run that at
work), so that would preclude running it on anything less than a 386SX.

Of course, there are exceptions, like uCLinux which is 16-bit -- AFAIK it
only runs on 68K systems and right now is ported to (ObCC:) Atari ST and
3Com's PalmPilot, if you have a TRG upgrade board (which body-slams 8Mb RAM
into your Pilot! :-)

This is the only exception that I know of, but there may be more.

If you'd like to know more about uCLinux, go here:

http://ryeham.ee.ryerson.ca/uClinux/status.html

HTH; and Happy Holidaze,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger


From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Sun Dec 20 16:32:56 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Type 0665?  This is 5.25" FH IBM HD, on topic. :)
References: <199812202011.PAA12747@mail.cgocable.net>
Message-ID: <367D7B17.8B709D21@bigfoot.com>

Is it a  0665-30,38 or 53?  It doesn't matter a whole lot as they are
all MFM ST412/506 but of course the size is different.

-30 is a 25 mb   (no specs given)
-38 is a 31mb   (5 hds, 733 cyl, 17 spt)
-53 is a 44mb   (7 hds, 733 cyl, 17 spt)

That's all I have from my Pocket PC Ref other than they are all 40 ms
access, 5.25", FH, heavy as can be.

jpero@pop.cgocable.net wrote:

> Spec on this pls.
>
> Can't find this info on 'net even at IBM's.
>
> Thanks!
>
> email: jpero@cgocable.net
> Pero, Jason D.



From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Sun Dec 20 16:43:47 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Type 0665?  This is 5.25" FH IBM HD, on topic. :)
References: 
Message-ID: <367D7DA2.FB305DA6@bigfoot.com>

http://www.storage.ibm.com/techsup/hddtech/table.htm is the full address but
they don't seem to have anything on the 0665 family, only the 663 and 664
(SCSI). I may have overlooked it. Hopefully he has an MFM controller.

R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Dec 1998 jpero@pop.cgocable.net wrote:
>
> > Can't find this info on 'net even at IBM's.
>
> Try www.storage.ibm.com
>
> they had info on my Type 0663 disks, which are 1.2GB 3.5" HH. I don't see
> why they shouldn't, then, have info on the 0665.
>
> --
> ok
> r.                                      r e d  @  b e a r s . o r g
>                                         ===========================
>                                         [ urs longa | vita brevis ]



From mbg at world.std.com  Sun Dec 20 16:56:48 1998
From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Need help on notebook
Message-ID: <199812202256.AA06829@world.std.com>


I don't know if this fits the 10-year-old rule (I doubt it), but
my brother has an Epson ActionNote 4SLC2/50 and for Christmas I'd
like to upgrade the measly 100+ Mb system disk he has with something
a little larger (approx 300 Mb).  I'm sure it probably has the
528 Mb limit, but that's okay, I don't have a disk that large
(in 2.5" form factor) to give him.

Anyway, I wanted to know if anyone has information on this notebook
and can tell me if it can accept larger disks.  Does it have the
capability of SETUP and setting disk parameters (if the disk itself
doesn't match one of the type 1-47 disks)?

Rather than clutter the list with off-topic PC stuff, please
respond to me directly.

Thanks in advance for all the help...

					Megan Gentry
					Former RT-11 Developer

+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL   | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group |          (home):  mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation    | addresses need '@' in place of '!'  |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43   | URL:     http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | 
| Nashua, NH 03062               | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055                 |  required." - mbg                   |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
My home_systems page has been massively updated... check it out.




From roblwill at usaor.net  Sun Dec 20 19:55:05 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Linux or what?
Message-ID: <01be2c84$ee5b0400$b78ea6d1@the-general>

O.K.  I think I'll try Minix, but where can I get it??  I can't seem to find
it on the web anywhere (using WebCrawler).  Does anyone have a copy that
they could email, or a website to go to to download it?

Happy Holidaze
-and-
ThAnX,
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318


-----Original Message-----
From: Allison J Parent 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Sunday, December 20, 1998 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: Linux or what?

>
>How about minix 2.0.  It run on 8088 and fits in small disks.
>
>Likely the caldara openlinux can be trimmed of you eliminate the source
>files.  The problem is not fitting it on the disk but will you have useable
>disk left?  Finding a 40mb disk for that laptop would be a good idea.
>
>Allison
>
>



From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Sun Dec 20 17:01:01 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Type 0665?  This is 5.25" FH IBM HD, on topic. :)
Message-ID: <79e9842a.367d81ad@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/20/98 3:12:19 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
jpero@pop.cgocable.net writes:

> Spec on this pls.  
>  
>  Can't find this info on 'net even at IBM's.
>  
>  Thanks!
>   
according to my pc pocket ref guide, this is a 44 meg ESDI drive for ps2 mod
60/80


From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Sun Dec 20 17:25:38 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Type 0665?  This is 5.25" FH IBM HD, on topic. :)
References: <79e9842a.367d81ad@aol.com>
Message-ID: <367D8771.C494085A@bigfoot.com>

Did one of us misread the Pocket PC ref? The 0667 series is the ESDI ones
according to mine, 6th edition. The 0665 shows as MFM for all three variations
in mine.

SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 12/20/98 3:12:19 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> jpero@pop.cgocable.net writes:
>
> > Spec on this pls.
> >
> >  Can't find this info on 'net even at IBM's.
> >
> >  Thanks!
> >
> according to my pc pocket ref guide, this is a 44 meg ESDI drive for ps2 mod
> 60/80



From yowza at yowza.com  Sun Dec 20 17:34:29 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Linux or what?
In-Reply-To: <01be2c84$ee5b0400$b78ea6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 20 Dec 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote:

> O.K.  I think I'll try Minix, but where can I get it??  I can't seem to find
> it on the web anywhere (using WebCrawler).  Does anyone have a copy that
> they could email, or a website to go to to download it?

	http://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/minix.html

-- Doug



From jpero at pop.cgocable.net  Sun Dec 20 12:42:09 1998
From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Type 0665?  This is 5.25" FH IBM HD, on topic. :)
In-Reply-To: <79e9842a.367d81ad@aol.com>
Message-ID: <199812202336.SAA18669@mail.cgocable.net>

> Date:          Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:01:01 EST
> Reply-to:      classiccmp@u.washington.edu
> From:          SUPRDAVE@aol.com
> To:            "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
> Subject:       Re: Type 0665?  This is 5.25" FH IBM HD, on topic. :)

> In a message dated 12/20/98 3:12:19 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> jpero@pop.cgocable.net writes:

Gibbish babblings snipped!

Boy!

I got all different kinds of answers for that 0665!  It has 34 and 
20pin edge connectors and there's no dash after that type #.

BTW:  I have all 5 types of controller cards:  MFM, RLL, ESDI, SCSI 
and same old IDE.  So I'm not short on anything to try out except for 
stranger interfaces and nonstandard SCSI interfaces ie SCA.  :-)

More info might help:

Type 0665, 060386-ESP177-38

I have error table with 2 entries, cutout area is 20, and FPU # is 
62X1017, 470 110127 30MB stuck to the front end metal plate.

I had an old exact hd chassis design which had 4 platters 
without the extra circuit board that I have now that attaches upright 
to the mainboard at "front end" hidden behind metal plate.

Spun it up, seems to seeks home fine on power feed and first one I 
had only does clanging against stops metallic ting ting ting - clank! 
- ting ting ting...  I wish many HD's had this external motor ring!
Saw few dead HDs with shot motor and one FH 1GB hd die from that 
too but the worst thing motor is in that hub so it went off to data 
recovery by that bbs owner which later on became KOS.
Then rebuilt at Fujitsu bec it was in warrenty.  But I saw more poor 
reporting on Fujitsu drives for years afterwards to this date.
email: jpero@cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 20 13:48:22 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Electrical knowledge, was Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: <01be2bcb$56055ca0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> from "Computer Room Internet Cafe" at Dec 20, 98 02:16:33 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 20 13:50:55 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: <199812200429.AA19204@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Dec 19, 98 11:29:53 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 20 13:53:47 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Can I conclude......
In-Reply-To: <199812200431.AA20326@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Dec 19, 98 11:31:40 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 20 14:17:23 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Electrical knowledge, was Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To:  from "Max Eskin" at Dec 20, 98 12:18:21 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 20 14:25:11 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To:  from "Max Eskin" at Dec 20, 98 12:30:58 pm
Message-ID: 

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From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Sun Dec 20 18:17:45 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Type 0665?  This is 5.25" FH IBM HD, on topic. :)
Message-ID: 

ah, there also seems to be a 20/30 meg flavour for the 5170 as well as the
EDSI 44 meg type. 

In a message dated 12/20/98 6:27:49 PM EST, rhblake@bigfoot.com writes:

<< Did one of us misread the Pocket PC ref? The 0667 series is the ESDI ones
 according to mine, 6th edition. The 0665 shows as MFM for all three
variations
 in mine.
 
 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote:
 
 > In a message dated 12/20/98 3:12:19 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
 > jpero@pop.cgocable.net writes:
 >
 > > Spec on this pls.
 > >
 > >  Can't find this info on 'net even at IBM's.
 > >
 > >  Thanks! >>


From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Sun Dec 20 18:20:42 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Type 0665?  This is 5.25" FH IBM HD, on topic. :)
Message-ID: 

my june94 ref guide suggests this is a 30meg hard drive for an IBM AT. FRU
8286216.  not worth much, but fascinating to take apart!


In a message dated 12/20/98 6:37:05 PM EST, jpero@pop.cgocable.net writes:

<< 
 More info might help:
 
 Type 0665, 060386-ESP177-38
 
 I have error table with 2 entries, cutout area is 20, and FPU # is 
 62X1017, 470 110127 30MB stuck to the front end metal plate.
 
 I had an old exact hd chassis design which had 4 platters 
 without the extra circuit board that I have now that attaches upright 
 to the mainboard at "front end" hidden behind metal plate. >>


From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au  Sun Dec 20 18:26:30 1998
From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Electrical knowledge, was Another ~1960 computer kit
Message-ID: <01be2c78$8e5cd9e0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Monday, 21 December 1998 11:12
Subject: Re: Electrical knowledge, was Another ~1960 computer kit


>> A screwdriver (insulated handle!) blade touched to the top cap of the
>> 1S2 would produce a healthy arc when held somewhere near chassis
>
>1S2 = DY86, I believe. OK, I understand now - that's the EHT rectifier,
>right...


Never heard of a DY86, but yes, either that or the damper diode.  Can't
remember.
Creeping senility.

>Normally just holding the screwdriver up to the cap would draw a spark -
>you didn't need to have it anywhere near the chassis. And if you didn't
>get a spark, you removed the top cap connector (anode) and tried again -
>to the connector. A common fault was that the diode valve would
>short-circuit, thus effectively short-circuiting the AC EHT via the
>capacitance of the CRT.
>
>> if the line/eht stage was running.   This practice did not survive the
>> transition
>> to solid state devices that disliked the spikes etc it could cause!
>
>No, indeed. Producing sparks in transistorised TVs/monitors is a good way
>to blow semiconductors all over the chassis. When I was working on a
>Barco monitor (actually off a classic-computer graphics display system),
>I had an EHT flashover to my fingers (ouch!!) which took out a couple of
>transistors in power supply unit.

Sounds about right.  Murphy.

>Some valve output transformers could match pretty low loads. The famous
>Williamson transformer has 8 secondary windings which can be wired in
>series/parallel to match down to <1 Ohm, I think.

I've seen 3 ohm  secondaries on valve gear, so that sounds possible.
The 1930's radio it was in had a field coil loudspeaker, first one I ever
saw.

Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie
South Australia.
netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au



From hhacker at gte.net  Sun Dec 20 19:16:06 1998
From: hhacker at gte.net (Buck Savage)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Electrical knowledge, was Another ~1960 computer kit
Message-ID: <018e01be2c7f$7d080960$01010101@amranhqpo000000.jps.net>

Assuming the speakers are identical, then, in parallel, the resistance of
the circuit is halved, while in series, the resistance is doubled.  This
means
that for series, the volume of the sound which is produced by the speakers
is halved, and doubled for the parallel case.  I am neither an electrical
nor
an electronic engineer but, Ohm's law is sufficient for this analysis.

William R. Buckley

-----Original Message-----
From: Max Eskin 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Sunday, December 20, 1998 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: Electrical knowledge, was Another ~1960 computer kit


>On Sun, 20 Dec 1998 ddameron@earthlink.net wrote:
>> Another example, it surprises me how many "electrical" people do not
>> understand, for example, what happens when one wires speakers in series
or
>> parallel.
>
>What _does_ happen?
>
>----------------------------------------------------
>Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor
>



From lwalker at mail.interlog.com  Sun Dec 20 14:10:03 1998
From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: 
References:  from "Max Eskin" at Dec 19, 98 04:59:04 pm
Message-ID: <199812210115.UAA01545@smtp.interlog.com>

On 19 Dec 98 at 23:42, Tony Duell wrote:

> > On Sat, 19 Dec 1998 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote:
 
SNIP
> Some of the 'boy mechanic' books cover making simple relays/stepping 
> switches (one such uses a clockwork motor made from an alarm clock to 
> operate it...), in particular to extend homemade telegraph lines.
> 
> Making a telephone exchange was not a common project, though. Making a 
> manual switchboard was certainly the sort of thing that boys did about 50 
> years ago if some the books I have are to be believed.
> 
> -tony
> 
 At the risk of exposing myself as an "old fart" , I was 12 50 years ago
and no one I knew was into that. Many did not have telephones, they
were expensive. We were more into "crystal sets" and Chemical kits.
 But yes you did learn casting and  toolshop techniques even if your eventual
goal was university.
 You have to realize the pace of change has been tremendous and there are 
limitations on what you retain unless you're using the technology on a constant 
basis. I'm sure our parents were as shocked at our lack of agricultural lore as
we are at the absence of mechanical skills in the present generation.
 But you can always relearn something you've learned before. That is possibly
one of the tragedies of our educational system. Kids are not given the tools 
that allow them to learn new skills.
  It's funny that slide-rules were forbidden in school Tests in my time as 
calculators were for a later generation. I remember being shocked when my son 
explained to me that he would be at a disadvantage without one at a later time 
" No calculators" had by then gone the way of other impediments to the great 
god "progress". I still remember my memorized by rote math tables. Don't know 
if the present generation is deficient in that respect or not, but they're sure 
slow without a calculator in hand.
 I'm odd-ball in that I like to have the control that comes from being able to 
manipulate my environment, whether cars or computers and dislike  Win98 or OS/2 
for that matter since they remove that control from you. Have always disliked 
electric windows and guages on cars that don't give you an analogue indication 
of temp. or oil pressure. The present generation couldn't care less why or how 
something works, the loss of control over your environment is a given and 
either something works or it doesn't. Being controlled is a given.

ciao		larry
lwalker@interlog.com


From lwalker at mail.interlog.com  Sun Dec 20 14:10:00 1998
From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: TV Typewriter Cookbook
Message-ID: <199812210115.UAA01569@smtp.interlog.com>

 A couple of good finds lately:

 A JDH Videomate a predecessor of TV cards. Which works with a VGA like
a VCR does with the 8-bits. Works but need a manual.

A Kraft KC-3 Joy-Stick ,swichable to work on an A-ll or PC with 9 and 15 pin
connector. Nicest J-S I've seen.

My main find tho was a "TV Typewriter Cookbook" from Sams by Don Lancaster, the 
author of the TTL cookbook among others. Might be old hat to most members on 
the list, but I find it's an amazing book. My apologies to those who've seen it 
before.
 Wozniac and others must have been influenced by it.
 A quote (long) from the end of the book is interesting.
         
"
                  WHERE TO FROM HERE?

   When this book was started, there was only one low-cost hobby microcomputer 
(the Mark-8) and only one very dated tvt (the TVT-1). If you could get them, 
2102's were $30 each and nonexistent microprocessor chips were advertised for 
$300 to $400 each, without documentation, and the key interface and support 
chips were a figment of the data-sheet writer's imagination. Peoples Computer 
Company CC) and the Amateur Computer Society (ACS) were voices crying in the 
wilderness.
An incredibly short time later, the hobbyist and experimenter are literally 
swamped with microprocessor computers and CPU evaluation kits. Well-documented 
and supported CPUs are now available for $20 each in single quantities. The 
2102's are available as surplus for $1.50 each, only slightly over a tenth of a 
cent per bit. PROMs have dramatically dropped in price to half a cent per bit 
and less .
Computer and tvt-user clubs and groups exist by the dozens. Besides PCC 
(Peoples Computer Company. Box 310 Menlo Park, CA 94025), and the numerous 
smaller newsletters, major computer hobbyist magazines now exist with excellent 
editorial materials, professional graphics, and wide distribution. These 
include BYTE, Interface and Microtek. Universities, junior colleges, 
industries, and even high schools now offer microprocessor courses. There are 
now dozens of retail computer stores.
Now what? Where do we go from here? The answer literally changes by the minute. 
In fact, if things continue at their present explosive rate, many of the basic 
principles in this book may seem quaint or primitive by the time you read this. 
Let's suppose that for an instant we could freeze time at November, 1975. 
Suppose further that your main interest was not in experimenting with a CPU and 
software like everyone else, but was aimed at bringing tvt's and other truly 
low-cost peripherals as near to reality as possible, so that something useful 
could be done cheaply with the CPUs everyone else  was building. Here, as I see 
it, are the major tvt-related questions that you can help answer at this 
instant in time:

 * Can a basic low-cost tv typewriter with cursor and memory be
   built to retail at the hobbyist level for $39.95?
 * Can a miniature calculator-style ASCII keyboard and encoder with            
    quality features (2KRO, choice of strobe, tactile response, two shot        
    keys) be built to retail at the hobbyist level for $14.95?
 * What is the longest length and highest character quality that can be        
    obtained with direct rf entry of an unmodified tv set?
 * Can you build a legal, universal, single-channel rf modulator to retail     
   at the hobbyist level for $4.95?
 * What is the minimum possible cost for a snap-on Selectric base-plate        
    adapter and converter? How fast will it operate? Can it be made to          
    enter as well as print?
 * How do you add light-pen feedback to graphic and tvt displays?
 * Can a single microprocessor such as an MOS Technology 6502 provide all      
    the timing and control for a stand-alone tvt?
 * What are the most effective software and algorithms needed for graphic      
    display games and puzzles?
 * Can you design a simple CPU backup for a graphics tvt that will move        
    chessmen following chess notation, e.g., Bishop to King's Rook 5?
 * Can you build a basic compiler on a chip or two?
 * What is the setup needed for a tvt-oriented wordprocessing system to        
    be used for addressing, printing form letters, and so on? Can this be       
    done without a CPU?
 * What is the simplest and cheapest dedicated "super front panel" tvt          
    configuration you can come up with that will read out the entire memory     
    contents of a microcomputer a page at a time? ? Can you make it             
    sequentially read out locations in hex or octa1 instead of ASCII?
 * Can you come up with a simple and universal locking system for video        
    titling and superposition on existing EIA sync programs, both for           
    studio and home video-recording uses? Can you make it crawl, have         
    variable character size and shape, etc.?
 * How do you use a tvt for printed-circuit and schematic layouts?
 * What is he best way a CPU and tvt can interact with an electronic          
    music synthesis system?
 * What about video art synthesis? Can you build a super spirograph? Make      
    it follow music?

 Where to from here? Get literature. Pour over trade journals. Join a club. 
Subscribe to PCC, Interface and BYTE. Collect newsletters. Take some courses. 
Read. Read. Read.                                                             
                                                                       "

 Now that was excited enthusiasm you don't see any more.

ciao		larry
lwalker@interlog.com


From marvin at rain.org  Sun Dec 20 19:20:58 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
References: 
Message-ID: <367DA27A.B098AF6E@rain.org>

Tony Duell wrote:
> 
> And, of course, safety rules haven't helped. I mean, children can't do
> anything that could possibly be dangerous, right? I was lucky in that I
> was shown how to do all sorts of things that could have harmed me
> (working with mains, using a soldering iron, using cutting tools), and
> shown safe ways to do them.

There is a wonderful song in the Musical "The King and I" where the King
does a soliloquy and one of the lines is "If my allies are strong enough to
protect me, might they not protect me out of all I own." Great line, and the
"protection" being applied in the guise of safety *does* protect the kids
out of what they might learn!

It would be interesting to see how the computer industry would have
developed under such safety constraints that are present today.  What would
the Altair, IMSAI, and others have been like?  An even better question is
would a damper have been put on the budding interest for many of us in these
new fangled devices.


From roblwill at usaor.net  Sun Dec 20 22:49:31 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Linux or what?
Message-ID: <01be2c9d$4c9d08c0$718ea6d1@the-general>

Thanks!  I'll check it out.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318


-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Yowza 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Sunday, December 20, 1998 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: Linux or what?


>On Sun, 20 Dec 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote:
>
>> O.K.  I think I'll try Minix, but where can I get it??  I can't seem to
find
>> it on the web anywhere (using WebCrawler).  Does anyone have a copy that
>> they could email, or a website to go to to download it?
>
> http://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/minix.html
>
>-- Doug
>
>



From jimw at agora.rdrop.com  Sun Dec 20 19:57:47 1998
From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Info needed: Loci 2
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981220175747.0073d2f0@agora.rdrop.com>

Amongst a stack of new acqusitions today a rather interesting looking unit
branded "LOCI 2".  Based on the name/serial number plate on the rear, it is
an electronic programmable calculator.  Apparently built by Wang Labs.

One of the interesting things about it (to me at least) was an accessory
that came with it.  A card reader.  Reads cards in the IBM 80 column form
factor, but they are different.  The cards (of which I received a supply
along with the unit) carry 40 columns of data, have perforated holes for
manlau punching, and are masked to indicate 80 steps of programming
information.  (pictures to follow on my web site in the next few days)

It was supposed to be functional when it was put in storage (some years
ago), but it will probably be a while before I can start working htru a
pre-start routine on it.

Anyone familiar with this unit?  And does anyone have any docs on it?

-jim

---
jimw@agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174




From mcquiggi at sfu.ca  Sun Dec 20 20:16:30 1998
From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: New Acquisition: Motorola "Exorcisor" 6800 Development System
Message-ID: <199812210216.SAA22057@fraser.sfu.ca>

Hi Gang:

This afternoon I acquired the above system. There's a main system unit, a
separate unit with dual 8" floppies, a SOROC Technology dumb terminal, a
good stock of development cards, and what appears to be a full set of
documentation and software on 8" floppies.

Any info on this system, which appears from a cursory look at the docs, to
have been a development system for standalone 6800-based industrial
controls, would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Kevin


-- 
Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD
mcquiggi@sfu.ca


From jpl15 at netcom.com  Sun Dec 20 20:17:27 1998
From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: (1960 kit) long and OT-ish.
In-Reply-To: <367DA27A.B098AF6E@rain.org>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 20 Dec 1998, Marvin wrote:

> Tony Duell wrote:
> > 
> > And, of course, safety rules haven't helped. I mean, children can't do
> > anything that could possibly be dangerous, right? I was lucky in that I
> 
> There is a wonderful song in the Musical "The King and I" where the King
> does a soliloquy and one of the lines is "If my allies are strong enough to
> protect me, might they not protect me out of all I own." Great line, and the
> "protection" being applied in the guise of safety *does* protect the kids
> out of what they might learn!
> 
> It would be interesting to see how the computer industry would have
> developed under such safety constraints that are present today.  What would


    DON'T GET ME STARTED!!  The 'safety' craze, which has it's dark 
roots in the vile muck of Victim Comciousness, is one of the big 
bricks in the wall around the dumb and dumber society we find so 
irresistable nowadays. And who can be blamed? Who can be held 
responsible? Why should any child extend himself into the unknown if 
he's just going to get sued for it?? (or yelled at, or jeered..)

  The is a wonderful (prophetic) sci-fi story, from 1947, by Jack
Williamson, entitled 'With Folded Hands'...  a rogue scientist,
traumatized by war and death on Earth, travels to an inhospitable
planet and builds a race of self-replicating super robots, all 
contolled from a central 'server' (if you will) with the motto "To 
Serve and Obey, and Guard Men From Harm". The robots come eventually 
back to earth, where they begin to *force* their Prime Directive 
upon mankind, by utterly passive and amorphous, unassailable 
strength. The story ends as you would expect...  the robots do 
everything, better, safer, quicker, and us Humen are relegated to 
sedentary retirement, since the definition of 'harm' is carried to 
the most ridiculous interpretation possible.  

  This is 19 *47*  mind you; re-reading it is eerie, now. I hate 
'new' computers for the same reason I hate my '92 Toyota truck... it 
has a diagnostic port, and when the 'Engine Check' lite goes on, I 
have to go somewhere so someone can charge me money to tell me 
what's complaining...  and I can't, (short of a lawsuit) get 
together enough info about a device that I *own* to enable me to at 
least understand all of it.  The same with 'Appliance' operating 
systems, like You-Know-What-Doze... 

   Give me a dot prompt and a logic probe. 

   General aviation (private planes) in this country was damn near 
driven out of collective business by uncontrolled strict-liability 
litigation.... "My client was killed because she flew your company's
airplane into the side of a building in broad clear daylight, and we 
notice that nowhere in your Operating Handbook or within view of the 
pilot is any notice warning that such activities are dangerous..."

  I spend a lot of volunteer time trying to get kids interested in
Technology and Science and Engineering...  not because I'm some kind
of saint - quite the contrary, it's really selfish. One day we'll
wake up and the talent to design and maintain the future will be in
the hands of some techno-priesthood...  and you can extrapolate the
rest. 

  If you don't think this is happening, re-read (in the Archives) a 
stray comment by Jason W. (about being 'strange' for liking tech 
stuff) and see the comment thread it engendered...  We might be 
allowing Science to be peer-pressured out of Society. Look how fast 
perfectly servicable computers get so obsolete you can't even *give* 
them away. 

   Unless they're obsolete enough for e-bay.       :}


 Okay sorry for the rant. Merry Christmas, Happy Chanukka, Reflective 
Ramadhan, Kool Kwanzaa, Accurate Newtonsday...  and omighod it's 
1999 already....   


   Cheers

John
  



From kyrrin at my-dejanews.com  Sun Dec 20 20:19:55 1998
From: kyrrin at my-dejanews.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: FW: PS/2 Freebies available in St. Louis, MO
Message-ID: <367faff0.611303447@smtp.jps.net>

	Found on Usenet. Much of the stuff is useful on 'classic' systems, so
I think it's on topic. Please contact the originator directly if you're
interested.

-=-=-  -=-=-

From: "Dave Masters" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware
Subject: Free PS/2 Stuff
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:38:09 -0600
Organization: Prodigy Services Corp
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <75jn5u$36f6$1@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: slip129-37-37-101.il.us.ibm.net
X-Post-Time: 20 Dec 1998 20:37:18 GMT
X-Auth-User: 000164880/61c487f372f03754
X-Problems-To: abuse@prodigy.net
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Path:
blushng.jps.net!news.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!skynet.be!207.115.59.8.MISMATCH!newscon05!prodigy.com!not-for-mail

I've been trying to clean out the basement for the last year without much
success. I've been given orders from the supreme commander to get this
stuff
out of here. I hate to just toss working computer equipment, so I am
offering PS/2 stuff for whatever it cost me to box it up and ship it out.
All equipment was working the last I used it, but is offered as is.

If you are interested in any of it, please contact me directly at
dmasters@prodigy.net. Trash day is Tuesday, but I'll hold the larger stuff
until the Tuesday after Christmas. If you're interested, please contact me
before then.

1 - 3118 B&W scanner with sheetfeed and high speed scanner adapter
1 - 3119 B&W flatbed scanner and 3119 scanner adapter
1 - 8580-111, 386-20 MHz
5 - 8555 386-16 MHz with IDE adapter and hard drives
5 - 2.88 diskette drives, FRU 64F4148
1 - 5 1/4 external diskette drive, Model 4869-002
1 - 30MB hard drive from a Mdl 30-286, FRU 6128279
1 - 160MB hard drive, FRU 56F8895
2 - 60MB hard drive, FRU 6128282
5 - 80MB SCSI hard drive, FRU 56F8854
4 - 160MB SCSI hard drive, FRU 56F8851
1 - 160MB SCSI hard drive, FRU 95F4718
1 - 30MB hard drive out of a Model 25 or 30, Mdl WDI-325Q
1 - IBM tape drive out of a Model 80, P/N 30F5167
> 10 - 3Com Etherlink/MC TP Ethernet adapters
1 - PCMCIA VoiceType Dictation adapter and software
1 - VisualAge C++ for OS/2 Documentation set
1 - OS/2 Warp Connect V3 (sealed)
1 - OS/2 V2.1 (sealed)
1 - Personal Communications AS/400 and 3270 (sealed)
1 - VisualAge for Smalltalk V3 documentation set (sealed)
1 - IBM Distributed Database Connection Services Single-User (sealed)
1 - IBM VisualAge for Java, Enterprise edition, V1 (sealed)
1 - IBM VisualAge for Java, Professional edition, V1 (sealed)
1 - Novell V3.11, 250 user license, diskettes and documentation

Regards,
Dave Masters




-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho,
Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com
Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com
"...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object,
event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..."


From cmcmanis at freegate.com  Sun Dec 20 20:25:05 1998
From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: TV Typewriter Cookbook
In-Reply-To: <199812210115.UAA01569@smtp.interlog.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981220180427.00956d80@mcmanis.com>


>My main find tho was a "TV Typewriter Cookbook" from Sams by Don Lancaster, 
>the 
>author of the TTL cookbook among others. Might be old hat to most members on 
>the list, but I find it's an amazing book. My apologies to those who've seen 
>it 
>before.
> Wozniac and others must have been influenced by it.
> A quote (long) from the end of the book is interesting.

Cool, I've got the follow-on book which is called the "Cheap Video
Cookbook" that uses a 6502 as a video processor. Some interesting notes :
         
> * Can a basic low-cost tv typewriter with cursor and memory be
>   built to retail at the hobbyist level for $39.95?

A "bare bones" VGA card costs $9.95, If you can find a CGA card they are less.

> * Can a miniature calculator-style ASCII keyboard and encoder with
    
>    quality features (2KRO, choice of strobe, tactile response, two shot     
>    keys) be built to retail at the hobbyist level for $14.95?

A 101 key IBM PC compatible keyboard is now around $8.00 new, $1.00 surplus.

> * What is the longest length and highest character quality that can be
    
>    obtained with direct rf entry of an unmodified tv set?

You can easily do 85 x 30 lines on a modern TV using the S-video input.

> * Can you build a legal, universal, single-channel rf modulator to retail
    
>   at the hobbyist level for $4.95?

Yes, and from a surplus dealer they are $0.75

> * What is the minimum possible cost for a snap-on Selectric base-plate
    
>    adapter and converter? How fast will it operate? Can it be made to       
>    enter as well as print?

Don't know...

> * How do you add light-pen feedback to graphic and tvt displays?

Interrupts. Most mono-chrome PC cards had Light pen input.

> * Can a single microprocessor such as an MOS Technology 6502 provide all
    
>    the timing and control for a stand-alone tvt?

Yes, and he goes on to prove it in the Cheap Video Cookbook. These days I'd
consider using a PIC.

> * What are the most effective software and algorithms needed for graphic
    
>    display games and puzzles?

Turns out the bit-blt was pretty prevalent here.

> * Can you design a simple CPU backup for a graphics tvt that will move
    
>    chessmen following chess notation, e.g., Bishop to King's Rook 5?

Again, this is something Don does in the Cheap Video Cookbook.

> * Can you build a basic compiler on a chip or two?

Yes, witness the BASIC Stamp, the Phoenix, etc. 

You can also build BASIC into a chip, vis-a-vis the 8052AH 

> * What is the setup needed for a tvt-oriented wordprocessing system to
    
>    be used for addressing, printing form letters, and so on? Can this be    
>    done without a CPU?

Olivetti did it in 1988, there may have been others.

> * What is the simplest and cheapest dedicated "super front panel" tvt       
>    configuration you can come up with that will read out the entire memory  
>    contents of a microcomputer a page at a time? ? Can you make it          
>    sequentially read out locations in hex or octa1 instead of ASCII?

???

> * Can you come up with a simple and universal locking system for video
    
>    titling and superposition on existing EIA sync programs, both for        
>    studio and home video-recording uses? Can you make it crawl, have         
>    variable character size and shape, etc.?

Genloc chips from Motorola do this.

> * How do you use a tvt for printed-circuit and schematic layouts?

These days it is "How else would you do it?"

> * What is he best way a CPU and tvt can interact with an electronic          
>    music synthesis system?

Thru an LCD panel? Most keyboards these days come with 4 line or better
LCD panels. Then again, with a Monster Sound MX300 you've got a pretty
good synth inside your computer!

> * What about video art synthesis? Can you build a super spirograph? Make
    
>    it follow music?

Seen homebrew versions, never a commercial one.

--Chuck



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 20 19:25:22 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Electrical knowledge, was Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: <01be2c78$8e5cd9e0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> from "Computer Room Internet Cafe" at Dec 21, 98 10:56:30 am
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 20 18:55:31 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Type 0665?  This is 5.25" FH IBM HD, on topic. :)
In-Reply-To:  from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at Dec 20, 98 07:20:42 pm
Message-ID: 

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From zmerch at 30below.com  Sun Dec 20 20:41:08 1998
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981220214108.0091d600@mail.30below.com>

At 08:25 PM 12/20/98 +0000, Tony Duell wrote:

>I didn't say I had many friends, now did I? :-). I just said that those I 
>did have liked making things. No, in the UK as well, it appears that 
>there are a lot of people who just watch TV. But would they like making 
>things if given the chance...

I most certainly like to spend a _few_ hours relaxing in front of the
boob-tube ... a week. TV as a form of occasional entertainment is nice -
but as a electronic / digital babysitter is a waste. And yes, having an
Atari 2600 when I was younger helped improve my hand-eye coordination and
reflexes to the point when I learned to type, I can achieve 110wpm, and
also helped my fascination with computers.

I also watched my uncle build a computer - amazed the hell out of him when
I learned to run it (at 8 years). All it did was convert decimal to binary
and back, and blinked the display at differing rates. Built totally from
TTL 7400 series. He gave me a copy of the schematics, tho I'm quite sure
they've been lost forever (8 year olds don't have the best filing
systems...). So yes, I've known binary - decimal conversion for 23 years)

My kids are fascinated to watch me pulling apart / fixing / assembling /
running all of my stuff around here and I plan to keep it that way. 

>And, of course, safety rules haven't helped. I mean, children can't do 
>anything that could possibly be dangerous, right?

Hell, kids are going to do dangerous things; like it or not. Whether it's
playing with mains, burning themselves with soldering irons, driving a
little too fast, jumping out of airplanes, burning themselves with drugs,
drinking and driving too fast *and* wrapping their car around a tree, etc.
etc.

Where in the list would you want *your* kids to be dangerous at???
Personally, the former is where I'll teach my kids to be.

I *do* drive too fast - my dad showed me how. He also showed me how to
drive an 18-wheeler, a backhoe, 2 farm tractors, a small bulldozer, and a
motorcycle. Darned near lost a thumb in a table saw... I still use one.
*And* I *still* burn myself with the soldering iron.... but not as often.

The other thing kids don't learn to do nowadays is: If it hurts, walk it
off. If you injure yourself, you're not supposed to do it that way. Let it
heal, and do it again (smarter). and again. and again.

Most of 'em just quit. Not my kids.

'Tis enough of my babbling... Happy Holidaze!!!

I'm off to fix a dryer, before my wife gets irate with me.

Roger "Merch" Merchberger


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sun Dec 20 22:42:00 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: New Acquisition: Motorola "Exorcisor" 6800 Development
  System
In-Reply-To: <199812210216.SAA22057@fraser.sfu.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981220224200.303fe114@intellistar.net>

Kevin,

  I have a set of manuals for this too.  They're already packed and I'm
sending them to Bill Yakowenko when he gets back.  You should contact him
and compare what you have.

   Joe

At 06:16 PM 12/20/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Hi Gang:
>
>This afternoon I acquired the above system. There's a main system unit, a
>separate unit with dual 8" floppies, a SOROC Technology dumb terminal, a
>good stock of development cards, and what appears to be a full set of
>documentation and software on 8" floppies.
>
>Any info on this system, which appears from a cursory look at the docs, to
>have been a development system for standalone 6800-based industrial
>controls, would be appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Kevin
>
>
>-- 
>Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD
>mcquiggi@sfu.ca
>



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 20 20:38:00 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: <199812210115.UAA01545@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Dec 20, 98 08:10:03 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 20 21:11:27 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: (1960 kit) long and OT-ish.
In-Reply-To:  from "John Lawson" at Dec 20, 98 06:17:27 pm
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 20 21:21:39 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: TV Typewriter Cookbook
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981220180427.00956d80@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Dec 20, 98 06:25:05 pm
Message-ID: 

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From jpero at pop.cgocable.net  Sun Dec 20 16:49:18 1998
From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Type 0665?  This is 5.25" FH IBM HD, on topic. :)
In-Reply-To: 
References:  from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at Dec 20, 98 07:20:42 pm
Message-ID: <199812210343.WAA19089@mail.cgocable.net>

> Date:          Mon, 21 Dec 1998 00:55:31 +0000 (GMT)
> Reply-to:      classiccmp@u.washington.edu
> From:          ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
> To:            "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
> Subject:       Re: Type 0665?  This is 5.25" FH IBM HD, on topic. :)

> > 
> > my june94 ref guide suggests this is a 30meg hard drive for an IBM AT. FRU
> > 8286216.  not worth much, but fascinating to take apart!
> 
> 'Not worth much'? This is classiccmp, isn't it? There are plenty of machines
> out there that are not PCs but which use ST506-type hard disks. And unlike
> PCs you can't just drop an IDE or SCSI card into them (well, unless _you_ 
> have a source of IDE interfaces for PERQs or Professionals or Daybreaks 
> or...).
> 
> IMHO, therefore, any working ST506 drive should be preserved. It may not 
> be useful in a PC, but it certainly can be useful in other machines. 
> Heck, some of us are working out ways to repair broken hard disks in 
> these machines.
> 
> -tony

Huh!?  Someone said that hd is dump?!  NOT!...

As long as it stay working I will gonna find someone who will 
appeciate them.  I prefer coil voice drives because they are better 
quality built and reliable.   Stepper types is out and many I saw is 
right now dying or already dead.

Just moments ago, I pulled up a MFM controller, a fake 486 in a 386dx 
board cached, bunch of cables and such with that '0665 hd and picked
type 20 (733/5/17).  To my greatest surprise it booted even HD top 
casing is thin drawn aluminum can and looked bit battered!

Now looking for a mouse to play with the old crusty windows  I think 
this one is pre 2.x on DOS 3.2!

When done, backed up some data if anyone is of any interest in 
s/w.  After that, plan to reformat it, spinrite'ed with 3.5 ver and 
passed, I will post it here for trade.

BTW, I think I might have lot of old HH 5.25" IDE #94204-71,  What 
model I can sub that circuit board for MFM or ESDI from other drives?
This is because of your machines on that mailing list!

Jason D.
email: jpero@cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.


From red at bears.org  Sun Dec 20 21:54:59 1998
From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: TI 99/4A revision
Message-ID: 


I'm attempting to gather some revision history on the old 99/4A in the
interest of having complete---if insanely esoteric---information.

If you've got a 99/4A, would you look at the bottom and mail me the serial
number and date code (to the right of the serial number and most likely
prefixed with "LTA") along with the following identifying characteristic:

Black and Silver with "Solid State Software" badge
Black and Silver without
Beige

The next step I suppose would be to identify any hardware or software
revisions in there, but so far as I can tell my oldest and newest 99/4As
are identical in all respects except external packaging.

-- 
ok
r.					r e d  @  b e a r s . o r g
					===========================
					[ urs longa | vita brevis ]



From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Sun Dec 20 21:56:51 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: (1960 kit) long and OT-ish.
Message-ID: <56b08dad.367dc703@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/20/98 10:28:44 PM EST, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes:

<< I am not going to be silly. I am not going to stick my fingers into a live
 mains socket, or use a machine tool when I'm not concentrating, or anything
 like that. But equally I'm not giving up the enjoyment I get from life 
 because I could possibly have an accident and might therefore shorten my 
 life.
 
 And for any lawyers here, I am quite prepared to take responsibility for
 my actions. If I do something wrong, then that's _my_ fault, right. Not 
 the person who supplied whatever I happened to be using at the time. Not 
 even if the whatever is defective - I should have taken the time to 
 check.  >>

well you gotta remember, that's not how people think over here. it's always
blame it on someone else. 8-\

passing the buck; the great american pasttime. 


From cmcmanis at freegate.com  Sun Dec 20 22:08:17 1998
From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: (1960 kit) long and OT-ish.
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <4.1.19981220200603.00a0a750@mcmanis.com>

>[Safety]
>>     DON'T GET ME STARTED!!  The 'safety' craze, which has it's dark 

I thought it would be fun to start a tool company called "Tools that Kill",
the motto would be that every tool sold could kill you so it was up to you
to follow the directions and avoid it. I'd probably stop short of offering
a circular saw which consists of a blade chuck on a motor that you hold
(the motor) when cutting but I agree, the level of warning is excessive. 

Further, there have been several studies that indicate excessive warning
stickers cause problems because they become "noise" and no one pays
attention to the ones that they need to.
--Chuck



From jpero at pop.cgocable.net  Sun Dec 20 17:13:26 1998
From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:24 2005
Subject: Type 0665?  This is 5.25" FH IBM HD, on topic. :)
In-Reply-To: <199812210343.WAA19089@mail.cgocable.net>
References: 
Message-ID: <199812210407.XAA00484@mail.cgocable.net>

More q's.

I caught what I'm able to see on boot up of that old windows.

1.03 with digital splash on it in CGA quality.

How can I mouse around even I tried starting the mouse driver or 
without mouse driver with a normal serial on com1 irq 4?
There is one program that was automatically started after starting up 
windows, I couldn't exit that one with keyboard commands.

Thanks!
email: jpero@cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.


From cmcmanis at freegate.com  Sun Dec 20 22:14:42 1998
From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: TV Typewriter Cookbook
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4.1.19981220180427.00956d80@mcmanis.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981220200823.00a07100@mcmanis.com>

(I wrote)
>> A "bare bones" VGA card costs $9.95, If you can find a CGA card they are 
>less.

At 03:21 AM 12/21/98 +0000, Tony wrote:
>Yes, but you have to add in the cost of the monitor. Remember a TVT used 
>a TV set (which you probably already owned). 

Attach said RF modulator to the CGA output and you've got your $11.00 TVT.

>Later used by Sinclair on the ZX80, I believe (using a Z80)

Yes, best example to date. Gotta love that "too speed up operation of your
program turn off the video" note.

>> Yes, witness the BASIC Stamp, the Phoenix, etc. 
>
>I thought the Stamp executed some kind of pseudocode, and that there was 
>a PC-based compiler that translated your BASIC program into this 
>pseudocode and downloaded it to the Stamp. 

True, the 8052's tokenizer would probably be the best bet here.

>> Olivetti did it in 1988, there may have been others.
>
>To make a word processor without a CPU in 1988 is downright perverse. 
>With chips like the Z80 costing a couple of dollars, even then, it would 
>have cost a lot more to use random logic. Why on earth did they do that?

At the time Xerox's MemoryWriter was the machine to own. The Ollivetti
stored basically key strokes in pre-assigned buffers (address, user1,
user2, etc) and then you could put "key codes" in your document as it was
entered. When you hit "replay" the key codes basically injected the
keycodes from the apropriate buffer. I think it had 4K of RAM for storing
your document.

--Chuck


From daveygf at aol.com  Mon Dec 21 01:11:27 1998
From: daveygf at aol.com (David Freibrun)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: eGroups
Message-ID: <19981221071127.3668.qmail@findmail.com>

Have any of you tried out 

http://www.egroups.com  ?

I am trying to get the classicCmp mailing list to work with it, but it doesn't show new messages. It does allow me to post from there though.

David
daveygf@aol.com
http://altaircomputers.org


From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca  Mon Dec 21 01:43:07 1998
From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: Comterm Hyperion - Boot disk?
In-Reply-To: <367499B4.7F8F82D3@cadvision.com>
Message-ID: 



On Sun, 13 Dec 1998, Mark Gregory wrote:

> Hi. I recently acquired a Hyperion "portable" PC

Congrats on the find!  I have two Hyperions but I think they are both from
Dynalogic.

> Does the Hyperion require an earlier version of DOS, or a customized
> version? Or, do I just have a machine with defunct floppy drives?

Good question.  There is a special version of DOS for the machine (as the
other Doug mentioned) but both of my machines are capable of booting from
standard MS/PC-DOS disks.  Someone on Fido reported that his Hyperion will
only boot with the original disk, though, but I think he was trying to
make DD floppies for it in a HD drive.

The second Hyperion that I dragged home initially wouldn't boot (I don't
have genuine Hyperion disks) but I opened the machine up and put it back
together and the drive has been working since.

I don't know what I did to get it to work.  Nudged the head loose? :)

Unfortunately now the screen doesn't work, and I haven't had time to go in
and see what I did wrong.  Hopefully over the holidays I'll find time.

It's a pain getting to the Hyperion's floppy drives, BTW.  You have to
remove just about every other piece of the machine's innards first.

> Mark Gregory

-- 
Doug Spence
ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca
http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/



From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca  Mon Dec 21 01:45:52 1998
From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: Comterm Hyperion - Boot disk?
In-Reply-To: <199812140611.BAA22050@mail.cgocable.net>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 jpero@pop.cgocable.net wrote:

> Oh, Hyperions can be expanded to full 640K, by external bare small 
> circuit board on that 3 row pin connector.  (what's the name for that 
> type of connector, for example: DB-9?)

Do you know the pinout of that connector?

> email: jpero@cgocable.net
> Pero, Jason D.

-- 
Doug Spence
ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca
http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/



From eric at brouhaha.com  Mon Dec 21 01:47:20 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: TV Typewriter Cookbook
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981220180427.00956d80@mcmanis.com> (message from Chuck
	McManis on Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:25:05 -0800)
References: <4.1.19981220180427.00956d80@mcmanis.com>
Message-ID: <19981221074720.12718.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Lawrence wrote:
> My main find tho was a "TV Typewriter Cookbook" from Sams by Don Lancaster, 
> the author of the TTL cookbook among others.

Chuck wrote:
> Cool, I've got the follow-on book which is called the "Cheap Video
> Cookbook" that uses a 6502 as a video processor. Some interesting notes :

And don't forget "Son of Cheap Video", from 1980.  From the back cover:

 Son of Cheap Video  is a sequel to  The Cheap Video Cookbook. 
Here you'll find brand new and greatly improved circuits to get alphanumeri
and grapics video out of a microcomputer and onto an ordinary television set.

Inside, you'll find details on a $7 complete video display system called
"Scungy video," and a $1 super-simple full transparency concept called "the
snuffler."  These new ideas are vastly simpler than the earlier cheap video
circuits and much easier to adapt to many different micros.  They also use
far less address space and can eliminate the custom PROMs used in cheap video.

Also inside are complete details on do-it-yourself custom EPROM character
generators, using a sophisticated, yet simple, music staff display as a
detailed design example.  We haven't forgotten the 8080/Z80 people this time,
either.  There are two chapters on 8080/Z80 operation, along with a cheap
video system for the Heathkit H-*, and a versatile keyboard serial adapter.

Lower case for your Apple II using the existing keyboard and a cheap video
module rounds out this assortment of hands-on hardware projects.


From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca  Mon Dec 21 02:21:00 1998
From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: Dr. Dobbs..
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981214103942.00df7940@pc>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, John Foust wrote:

> At 06:43 AM 12/12/98 -0500, Doug Spence wrote:
> >
> >On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Chuck McManis wrote:
> >
> >> Dale Luck has PCC newspaper vol1 number 1. It was a hoot to read through!
> >
> >Oooh, name dropping!
> 
> Don't forget, you can also impress people by dropping Chuck McManis'
> name in conversation.  :-)

Oops!

Don't mind me, I'm just publically displaying my own ignorance. :)

> - John

-- 
Doug Spence
ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca
http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/



From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Mon Dec 21 02:39:50 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: Intelligent Systems Compucolor
Message-ID: <005101be2cbd$7a447360$1901a8c0@titanic.bde.com.au>

Could any owners of the Intelligent Systems Corp. Compucolor plese raise
your collective hands.  I'm trying to find more information about this
machine.
Thanks
A



From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca  Mon Dec 21 04:49:23 1998
From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: Commodore machines that never made it?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, Jim Brain wrote:

> The two letters at far right indicate that someone owns this machine.
> The names are in Mnemonic, and the expansions are directly above these 
> notes.

Do you have to know the person to include the name or something?  The
reason I ask is that some items which I would assume to be common, don't
have owners attributed to them.

Note that if I own an item, I generally consider it to be common. :)

> Calculator Series:



You are missing the Commodore PR-100.

It's dark brown, and has an intense orange, non LED display.

Just for the fun of it, I'll try typing in the keyboard layout, even
though I can't type some of the characters. :)

                  CLR LD  RUN
                    _______           ____
                   [_____##]         [__##] <--- power switch

 BACK     STEP     R/S      GOTO     SKIP
 _____    _____    _____    _____    _____
|     |  |     |  |     |  |     |  |     |
|     |  |     |  |     |  |     |  |     |
|_____|  |_____|  |_____|  |_____|  |_____|

 CLR      sinh     cosh     tanh      CA
 _____    _____    _____    _____    _____
|     |  |     |  |     |  |     |  |     |
|  F  |  | sin |  | cos |  | tan |  | C/CE|
|_____|  |_____|  |_____|  |_____|  |_____|
                            x ___
 CLR      e^x      10^x     \/ y      1/x
 _____    _____    _____    _____    _____
|     |  |     |  |     |  |   x |  |  __ |
|(inv)|  | ln  |  | log |  |  y  |  |\/x  |
|_____|  |_____|  |_____|  |_____|  |_____|

 C<->S    d<->r    slope    intcp     n!
 _____    _____    _____    _____    _____
|     |  |     |  |     |  |     |  | __  |
|P<->R|  | hms |  | Ci  |  | Cs  |  | ||  | <-- pi. :)
|_____|  |_____|  |_____|  |_____|  |_____|

 FRAC      INT     delXn     /_\%    x<->M   <-- that's supposed to be
 _____    _____    _____    _____    _____       delta% one key over
|     |  |     |  |     |  |     |  |     |
|  M  |  | MR  |  | Xn  |  |  %  |  |x<->y|
|_____|  |_____|  |_____|  |_____|  |_____|
   n        n                 _
  Pm       Cm        s        x        s'
 _____    _____    _____    _____    _____
|     |  |     |  |     |  |     |  |     |
|  7  |  |  8  |  |  9  |  |  (  |  |  )  |
|_____|  |_____|  |_____|  |_____|  |_____|

  deg      rad     grad      M*       M/     <-- really uses ordinary mult.
 _____    _____    _____    _____    _____     | and div. symbols
|     |  |     |  |     |  |     |  |     |    |
|  4  |  |  5  |  |  6  |  |  *  |  |  /  |  <-
|_____|  |_____|  |_____|  |_____|  |_____|

  SCI      FP       ENG      M+       M-
 _____    _____    _____    _____    _____
|     |  |     |  |     |  |     |  |     |
|  1  |  |  2  |  |  3  |  |  +  |  |  -  |
|_____|  |_____|  |_____|  |_____|  |_____|
  o  o
 ( F) C   (in)cm   (gal)l  (lb)kg     9M
 _____    _____    _____    _____    _____
|     |  |     |  |     |  |     |  |     |
|  0  |  |  .  |  | EE  |  | +/- |  |  =  |
|_____|  |_____|  |_____|  |_____|  |_____|


Keys are dark brown, orange, or white except for the F key which is
yellow.

The part number listed on the back is Part No. 201392-03.

> PC Series:
> * A1060         DOS/PC SideCar that connects to an A1000.

I have one of these.  It came standard with 256K, but with sockets so you
could put it up to 512K.  It has 8-bit ISA slots, but I forget how many
(3 or 4).  I used it mainly for controlling my A1000's hard drive. :)

>   Hyperion      PC Clone.  Looked like Dynalogic Hyperion

You've gotta be kidding me!  A Commodore Hyperion would be a cool find, to
place beside my two Dynalogic Hyperions!

> Disk Drive Series:
> * Amiga 3010    Single 3.5", 1.76M Dual Speed, internal.

Dunno if this counts, but I bought a second-hand A3000 (which I'm using to
type this message) with an internal 1.76MB drive, manufactured by Chinon I
believe.  Would this be the 3010 unit sold by Commodore?

> Cartridge Series:
> *               Music Machine

I have the Music Machine cartridge.

> * VIC 1927      Cosmic Jailhouse (Cosmic Jailbreak), Hong Kong, grey label

I have this one, titled "Cosmic Jailbreak".  I don't remember if it has
a white label or a metallic one.

> * VIC 1929      Personal Finance

I have this cart, too.

> Cassette Software Series:
> * VT108         Math Improvement Six Pack (Numbowl, LCM Machine, Sector
>                 Five, Backfire, Ruler Dueler, City Motel                    PA

I have VT-108-F, the French language version, entitled "Math Livre I".  I
saw book II at a Village des Valeurs a while back, but didn't pick it up.

The book I have has:

 "Quiz" math
 VIC decimales
 Math rapide
 VIC fractions
 Astro-shoot
 VIC pourcentages

> * Amiga 3406    Amiga RF Modulator.

Note that it is specific to the A1000.  It uses the modulator port.  I
have one of these.

For other software, would you include AmigaVision on the Commodore
software series?  It was included with the A3000, and the manual and disks
carry the Commodore and Amiga logos, and the package had a
Commodore license agreement.  The software bears a shared copyright
(1990) to Commodore-Amiga and IMSATT Corporation.  It is multimedia
authoring software.


> --
> Jim Brain, Embedded System Designer, Brain Innovations, Inc. (BII)(offline sig)
> bii@mail.jbrain.com "Above views DO reflect my employer, since I'm my employer"
> Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times!      -Me-
> BII Home: http://www.jbrain.com          CBM Info: http://www.jbrain.com/vicug/

-- 
Doug Spence
ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca
http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/



From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Mon Dec 21 04:54:37 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: eGroups
References: <19981221071127.3668.qmail@findmail.com>
Message-ID: <367E28EC.B38A931D@bigfoot.com>

No, no no....please don't swing us to eGroups. If you'd like to know the pain in the butt egroups is, contact Eric Vogel, moderator/owner of both
the Computer Talk Shop list on Flash.Net and the CTS-Personal list on eGroups at his email address of ECVOGEL@FLASH.NET

He can also give you Mike Tavares emai address that owns/runs a Windows 98 list on it as well.


David Freibrun wrote:

> Have any of you tried out
>
> http://www.egroups.com  ?
>
> I am trying to get the classicCmp mailing list to work with it, but it doesn't show new messages. It does allow me to post from there though.
>
> David
> daveygf@aol.com
> http://altaircomputers.org



From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Mon Dec 21 04:59:53 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: Type 0665?  This is 5.25" FH IBM HD, on topic. :)
References: <199812202336.SAA18669@mail.cgocable.net>
Message-ID: <367E2A27.37A21DA3@bigfoot.com>

It's a 0665-38 by the numbers you've added. That means it's a 40ms access, 31mb MFM (ST412/506)
interface drive. It can't be SCSI obviously by the 2 sets of connectors, only MFM, RLL or ESDI.
ESDI is out by my reference. It should be hooked by MFM specs to an MFM attachment card and the
settings set to 733 cyls, 5 hds, 17 sectors per track. Make sure it's set as the proper unit as
well. If it's the primary drive on a twist cable (the 34 pin cable) then set it to DS1 (B:) like
you do floppy drives.

jpero@pop.cgocable.net wrote:

> > Date:          Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:01:01 EST
> > Reply-to:      classiccmp@u.washington.edu
> > From:          SUPRDAVE@aol.com
> > To:            "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
> > Subject:       Re: Type 0665?  This is 5.25" FH IBM HD, on topic. :)
>
> > In a message dated 12/20/98 3:12:19 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> > jpero@pop.cgocable.net writes:
>
> Gibbish babblings snipped!
>
> Boy!
>
> I got all different kinds of answers for that 0665!  It has 34 and
> 20pin edge connectors and there's no dash after that type #.
>
> BTW:  I have all 5 types of controller cards:  MFM, RLL, ESDI, SCSI
> and same old IDE.  So I'm not short on anything to try out except for
> stranger interfaces and nonstandard SCSI interfaces ie SCA.  :-)
>
> More info might help:
>
> Type 0665, 060386-ESP177-38
>
> I have error table with 2 entries, cutout area is 20, and FPU # is
> 62X1017, 470 110127 30MB stuck to the front end metal plate.
>
> I had an old exact hd chassis design which had 4 platters
> without the extra circuit board that I have now that attaches upright
> to the mainboard at "front end" hidden behind metal plate.
>
> Spun it up, seems to seeks home fine on power feed and first one I
> had only does clanging against stops metallic ting ting ting - clank!
> - ting ting ting...  I wish many HD's had this external motor ring!
> Saw few dead HDs with shot motor and one FH 1GB hd die from that
> too but the worst thing motor is in that hub so it went off to data
> recovery by that bbs owner which later on became KOS.
> Then rebuilt at Fujitsu bec it was in warrenty.  But I saw more poor
> reporting on Fujitsu drives for years afterwards to this date.
> email: jpero@cgocable.net
> Pero, Jason D.



From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Mon Dec 21 05:04:47 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: FW: PS/2 Freebies available in St. Louis, MO
References: <367faff0.611303447@smtp.jps.net>
Message-ID: <367E2B4E.A1A9D892@bigfoot.com>

Thanks *very* much Bruce, a group I'm working with that rebuilds older machines to use in many charitable places is in dire need of many of the items he has and I've already contacted him. Again, very much
appreciated.

Bruce Lane wrote:

>         Found on Usenet. Much of the stuff is useful on 'classic' systems, so
> I think it's on topic. Please contact the originator directly if you're
> interested.
>
> -=-=-  -=-=-
>
> From: "Dave Masters" 
> Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware
> Subject: Free PS/2 Stuff
> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:38:09 -0600
> Organization: Prodigy Services Corp
> Lines: 43
> Message-ID: <75jn5u$36f6$1@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: slip129-37-37-101.il.us.ibm.net
> X-Post-Time: 20 Dec 1998 20:37:18 GMT
> X-Auth-User: 000164880/61c487f372f03754
> X-Problems-To: abuse@prodigy.net
> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
> X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
> Path:
> blushng.jps.net!news.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.tli.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!skynet.be!207.115.59.8.MISMATCH!newscon05!prodigy.com!not-for-mail
>
> I've been trying to clean out the basement for the last year without much
> success. I've been given orders from the supreme commander to get this
> stuff
> out of here. I hate to just toss working computer equipment, so I am
> offering PS/2 stuff for whatever it cost me to box it up and ship it out.
> All equipment was working the last I used it, but is offered as is.
>
> If you are interested in any of it, please contact me directly at
> dmasters@prodigy.net. Trash day is Tuesday, but I'll hold the larger stuff
> until the Tuesday after Christmas. If you're interested, please contact me
> before then.
>
> 1 - 3118 B&W scanner with sheetfeed and high speed scanner adapter
> 1 - 3119 B&W flatbed scanner and 3119 scanner adapter
> 1 - 8580-111, 386-20 MHz
> 5 - 8555 386-16 MHz with IDE adapter and hard drives
> 5 - 2.88 diskette drives, FRU 64F4148
> 1 - 5 1/4 external diskette drive, Model 4869-002
> 1 - 30MB hard drive from a Mdl 30-286, FRU 6128279
> 1 - 160MB hard drive, FRU 56F8895
> 2 - 60MB hard drive, FRU 6128282
> 5 - 80MB SCSI hard drive, FRU 56F8854
> 4 - 160MB SCSI hard drive, FRU 56F8851
> 1 - 160MB SCSI hard drive, FRU 95F4718
> 1 - 30MB hard drive out of a Model 25 or 30, Mdl WDI-325Q
> 1 - IBM tape drive out of a Model 80, P/N 30F5167
> > 10 - 3Com Etherlink/MC TP Ethernet adapters
> 1 - PCMCIA VoiceType Dictation adapter and software
> 1 - VisualAge C++ for OS/2 Documentation set
> 1 - OS/2 Warp Connect V3 (sealed)
> 1 - OS/2 V2.1 (sealed)
> 1 - Personal Communications AS/400 and 3270 (sealed)
> 1 - VisualAge for Smalltalk V3 documentation set (sealed)
> 1 - IBM Distributed Database Connection Services Single-User (sealed)
> 1 - IBM VisualAge for Java, Enterprise edition, V1 (sealed)
> 1 - IBM VisualAge for Java, Professional edition, V1 (sealed)
> 1 - Novell V3.11, 250 user license, diskettes and documentation
>
> Regards,
> Dave Masters
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho,
> Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com
> Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com
> "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object,
> event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..."



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 21 06:08:08 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: blueplanet tech page
In-Reply-To: <199812200854.BAA02878@calico.litterbox.com>
Message-ID: <199812211109.LAA12462@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> It looks like the problems with www.blue-planet.com/tech have been fixed.  I'm
> now able to get in with Internet Exploder 4.0 again.

Who needs IE, if there's Lynx ?

SCNR
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 21 06:17:37 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: Language and wiered people
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812192110.NAA27422@mxu1.u.washington.edu> from "Dann Lunsford" at Dec 19, 98 01:03:32 pm
Message-ID: <199812211118.LAA13985@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > Heh.  My usual reaction to this sort of question is "Who would  *want* to
> > be?"  I have long maintained that. given the state that so-called normal

> I know I'm not normal, and I have absolutely no desire to be normal 
> either. 

You know, sometimes I dream of beeing a sub sub officer at a
tax office with a nice pair of cuff svers (of course black,
a very distinguish black), a whife and 5 children and nothing
to think about .... maybe that are the most wiered moments ...

Grins
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Mon Dec 21 05:20:34 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: OT: RE: Language and wiered people
In-Reply-To: <199812211118.LAA13985@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <000501be2cd3$ed52c9e0$66f438cb@a.davie>

Everybody, please remove "wiered" from you user-dictionary!
Enough weird spellings of weird, already ;)
And while I'm at it....  Sam, WHAT is "Sellam"?
A



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 21 06:28:39 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: TI 9900N
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199812211129.LAA15068@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> I just got this curious item from somebody. It's labelled LORAN C
> NAVIGATOR on the back. I haven't powered it up yet, but I guess this is
> something similar to GPS (only LORAN is on the ground, isn't it?). It
> looks pretty old, and certainly has digital electronics in it. Could
> someone tell me what to do with this thing? Would it be useful in a car or
> an airplane? (I have neither)

Of course - at least, if you also like to have a
map tank (?) and only like to know the city you
are in - the coordinates you get are exact to
something like 1 km or .5 nautical miles. Not
the best to do automatic steering of your car.

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From yowza at yowza.com  Mon Dec 21 05:46:32 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: OT: RE: Language and wiered people
In-Reply-To: <000501be2cd3$ed52c9e0$66f438cb@a.davie>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Andrew Davie wrote:

> Everybody, please remove "wiered" from you user-dictionary!
> Enough weird spellings of weird, already ;)

Weird?  I thought everybody was boasting about how *wired* they were.
That was close, I almost posted about the AUI port on my forehead (the
surgery was done before twisted pair was available).

> And while I'm at it....  Sam, WHAT is "Sellam"?

Isn't that the name of the Arab who would chase Bugs Bunny out of the
harem?  He'd wield a big saber and yell out "Sellam chop!"

-- Doug



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 21 07:16:58 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: OT: RE: Language and wiered people
In-Reply-To: <000501be2cd3$ed52c9e0$66f438cb@a.davie>
References: <199812211118.LAA13985@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <199812211218.MAA20614@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> Everybody, please remove "wiered" from you user-dictionary!
> Enough weird spellings of weird, already ;)

Sorry my fault :)

> And while I'm at it....  Sam, WHAT is "Sellam"?

A spelling error in his name ? (Or an 'OUT OF LETTERS' error)

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 21 07:50:01 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: OT: RE: Language and wiered people
In-Reply-To: 
References: <000501be2cd3$ed52c9e0$66f438cb@a.davie>
Message-ID: <199812211251.MAA25105@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> > Everybody, please remove "wiered" from you user-dictionary!
> > Enough weird spellings of weird, already ;)

> Weird?  I thought everybody was boasting about how *wired* they were.
> That was close, I almost posted about the AUI port on my forehead (the
> surgery was done before twisted pair was available).

Sad, but you still can use a AUI/TP adaptor - even better,
you also could use a Thick interface with an adaptor, if you
can handle the T pice :)

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au  Mon Dec 21 06:55:35 1998
From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: Linux or what?
Message-ID: <006d01be2ce1$33f7e3a0$2a3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au>

>it on the web anywhere (using WebCrawler).  Does anyone have a copy that


.
.
WebCrawler !!!    Is that the original browser that came with OS/2 Warp?
You still use it?



From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au  Mon Dec 21 07:04:51 1998
From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: Tektronix T4002
Message-ID: <006f01be2ce2$7f92a2e0$2a3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au>

I saw a Tektronix T4002 "Graphic Computer Terminal" at a junk auction place
near here.
Had a big weird looking joystick and what was labelled a "Teletype Port
Interface" for a DG Nova or Supernova computer. Also a hard copy unit nearly
as big again.

I don't know if it was sold. If it is still homeless next time I see it, how
important would it be to save it? It's a lot bigger than most of the stuff I
pick up so please tell me there's lots of them left.

Hans



From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Mon Dec 21 07:25:20 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: Linux or what?
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 12/21/98 7:57:49 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
jolminkh@nsw.bigpond.net.au writes:

> WebCrawler !!!    Is that the original browser that came with OS/2 Warp?
>  You still use it?

no, os2 used web explorer and i like it. seems faster than netscape and IE. of
course, previous versions didnt support frames either.   grrr.  os2 had
explorer and start before ms copied those ideas too...


From Marty at itgonline.com  Mon Dec 21 07:40:45 1998
From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: Intelligent Systems Compucolor
Message-ID: <1998Dec21.083951.1767.172695@smtp.itgonline.com>

 I have an ISC 8051 dated 2/78 but no paper. I have seen ads for it in 
 early Byte issues but that is about all I know at present.
 
 Marty
 


______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Intelligent Systems Compucolor
Author:  classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet
Date:    12/21/98 3:42 AM


 Could any owners of the Intelligent Systems Corp. Compucolor plese raise 
 your collective hands.  I'm trying to find more information about this 
 machine.
 Thanks
 A
 
 
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From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 21 08:38:01 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: OT: Online auctins an institution?
In-Reply-To: <19981218192828.14335.qmail@brouhaha.com>
References: <4.1.19981218095158.00bcbce0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> (message	from Chuck McManis on Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:55:00 -0800)
Message-ID: <199812211339.NAA02895@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > On
> > line auctions are here to stay and they open a whole new area of
> > opportunity (as this list knows all too well)

> As soon as you start trying to do anything with the results (like sell them),
> eBay (or whoever) will be quick to point out that they own the data, and you
> aren't allowed to use it for commercial purposes without a license.

They don't own the data. Data is still not owned by anybody. As
soon as a specific fact is published, it is free to be used. What
they own is the copyright to _their_ reprensentation of this data
on in _their_ publications. So everybody is free to read the final
prices of eBay items and compile a list (or book). You don't need
any 'licence' to use them, as long as the compilaton is your work
and not taken without further rework other than beautifying.

Its the same as with compilations of pricelists of other auction
houses: Most (larger) auction houses compile their own list and
sell them, or sell a second edition of the auction catalogue with
prices, but magazines and specialized publishing companies also
compile lists but without any licence fee, since it is not based
on any publishing of the auction house.


Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 21 09:52:21 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812191807.NAA01319@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA19339; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 10:04:22 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <199812211453.OAA12920@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > But worse still is the fact that back in the early years of this century, 
> > it appears that boys - say about 12-15 years old - were expected to try 
> > woodwork, metalwork, using a lathe, wiring electric lights, bells, 
> > telephones, etc, making induction coils, etc, etc, etc. Things that I bet 
> > few boys ever try today. And yet, today, it could be made a little easier 
> > for them.

> There's little need to make coils these days, and wiring electric lights
> isn't very fun when one can play around with things millions of times more
> complex.

ANd don'T forget the safty issue - until the 30s the sensitivy
to electric danger has been very low - or to say it in another
way, electricity in toys was general unsafe - just remember old
electric toytrains, like Märklin, they operateded at 110V with
open metal connections light bulbs where used as resistors to
lower the speed (voltage). In this Context, a book, telling a
12 year old boy how to work on light equipment is understandable.

For the today thing: at least I had such manual things at school,
and, AFAIK, is still told if you ar in an aprobiate school.

> > There is the secondary issue  with the Mindstorms kit that I don't like 
> > things that are tied to PCs, but that's another matter.

> Indeed. Since when do I need to upgrade my computer to use LEGOs? (I would
> have to -- the PC software has rather hefty system requirements)

Of course you need a Pentium 2 to get the brighter colours on
you LEGO bricks :)


Ciao
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From mtapley at swri.edu  Fri Dec 18 21:12:23 1998
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: Another find available in Maryland
Message-ID: 

All,
	I wrote:

>...Village Thrift Store in Laurel, MD, on the north side of 198 about a
>mile west of 95. (Same place as last time I found a cool computer ...

That would be a mile west of the Balt.-Wash. parkway, *2*95. I hope nobody
wasted a trip due to my abysmal map-reading skills. Sorry about that!
								- Mark




From jfoust at threedee.com  Mon Dec 21 09:42:08 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit - Philips?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812172347.PAA31887@saul2.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981221094208.00fed4c0@pc>

At 06:06 PM 12/17/98 -0600, Doug Yowza wrote:
>
>Speaking of programming paradigms, one of the reasons I've always been so
>found of the E&S PS-300 was that it used a dataflow language.  I found
>that a very compelling and completely different way to program.  What a
>guy that Sutherland was, eh?

What does an E&S PS-300 look like?

I saw one last Friday.  Or part of one.  It was a large monitor
with the tag "Evans and Sutherland PS-300" and a digitizing tablet
of some kind.  There was a large cable coming from it with a round
connector and a dozen or so conductors.  I expected it to be connected
to a large box containing the computer power, but didn't see that,
nor any keyboard.  It was for sale for about $20 at the UW-Madison 
surplus store.  It was so large and appeared to be missing the 
main components, so I didn't buy it.

There was a Sequent S27 parallel computer there, too.  I don't
know how many nodes it had.

- John



From jimw at agora.rdrop.com  Mon Dec 21 10:00:08 1998
From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: OT: RE: Language and wiered people
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Andrew Davie wrote:
> 
> > And while I'm at it....  Sam, WHAT is "Sellam"?
> 
> Isn't that the name of the Arab who would chase Bugs Bunny out of the
> harem?  He'd wield a big saber and yell out "Sellam chop!"

Actually, that was "Hassan"...

-jim
---
jimw@agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174



From jpl15 at netcom.com  Mon Dec 21 10:40:13 1998
From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: Intelligent Systems Compucolor
In-Reply-To: <005101be2cbd$7a447360$1901a8c0@titanic.bde.com.au>
Message-ID: 



On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Andrew Davie wrote:

> Could any owners of the Intelligent Systems Corp. Compucolor plese raise
> your collective hands.  I'm trying to find more information about this
> machine.
> Thanks
> A
> 
> 


   I have one w/kybd, trackball, and all docs...  was used as the 
color graphics display on a PDP-11/73 system.

Cheers and Best of the Season

John




From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca  Mon Dec 21 10:59:39 1998
From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: Commodore machines that never made it?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



Just talking to myself again (and to Jim Brain). :)

On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Doug Spence wrote:

> > PC Series:
> > * A1060         DOS/PC SideCar that connects to an A1000.
> 
> I have one of these.  It came standard with 256K, but with sockets so you
> could put it up to 512K.  It has 8-bit ISA slots, but I forget how many
> (3 or 4).  I used it mainly for controlling my A1000's hard drive. :)

It has 3 slots.  An interesting thing about my unit is that the copyright
dates on the BIOS startup message are 1984, 1985, and it says "- Test
Release -".  I don't know if all units are like that.

> > * VIC 1927      Cosmic Jailhouse (Cosmic Jailbreak), Hong Kong, grey label
> 
> I have this one, titled "Cosmic Jailbreak".  I don't remember if it has
> a white label or a metallic one.

It has the standard white label.

> > Cassette Software Series:

Some other Commodore-branded cassette software:

Real Estate 2
Math Pac 2

Both for the PET.  There must also have been Real Estate 1 and Math Pac 1.
:)

Both cassettes bear the Commodore logo, and (c)1978 Commodore Business
Machines messages.  They also each have a number printed in red, which may
be the part number.  For Math Pac 2, it is 321014, and the Real Estate 2
cassette has 321022 printed on it.

Real Estate 2 also says "(by Business Enhancement Compuservice)" on it, so
they must have written the software for Commodore.  The Math Pac 2
cassette bears no markings other than Commodore's.

Real Estate 2 contains: Cash Flow
                        Installment Sale

Math Pac 2 contains: Vectors
                     Matrix 1
                     Matrix 2

IIRC, all programs on these cassettes are very simple BASIC programs.


For another piece of Commodore software... would Mind Walker count?  It
was (c)1986 Commodore-Amiga/Synapse IIRC (which I may not).  I don't know
if the packaging, etc, was Commodore's or if it was Synapse.  Commodore
had the trademark on the name, though, because Amiga Technologies used
Mind Walker as the name for a web browser during the ESCOM era.


-- 
Doug Spence
ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca
http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/



From transit at primenet.com  Mon Dec 21 11:26:47 1998
From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: Commodore machines that never made it?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

> For another piece of Commodore software... would Mind Walker count?  It
> was (c)1986 Commodore-Amiga/Synapse IIRC (which I may not).  I don't know
> if the packaging, etc, was Commodore's or if it was Synapse.  Commodore
> had the trademark on the name, though, because Amiga Technologies used
> Mind Walker as the name for a web browser during the ESCOM era.


Wasn't that originally called "Wynd Walker?" (They had to change the name 
because of, you guessed it, trademark issues)




From jfoust at threedee.com  Mon Dec 21 11:29:26 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: Commodore machines that never made it?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981221112926.00f248b0@pc>

At 09:26 AM 12/21/98 -0800, Charles P. Hobbs wrote:
>> For another piece of Commodore software... would Mind Walker count?  It
>> was (c)1986 Commodore-Amiga/Synapse IIRC (which I may not).  I don't know
>> if the packaging, etc, was Commodore's or if it was Synapse.  Commodore
>> had the trademark on the name, though, because Amiga Technologies used
>> Mind Walker as the name for a web browser during the ESCOM era.
>
>Wasn't that originally called "Wynd Walker?" (They had to change the name 
>because of, you guessed it, trademark issues)

No, Mind Walker was one of the very first games (call it that?) for
the Amiga.  I don't remember the story behind it, but I could ask a
friend who knew the guy who wrote it.

- John



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 21 12:32:42 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812192145.QAA00192@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA11183; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 10:55:10 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <199812211734.RAA04515@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > Besides, I really like Squeak.  I hated VisualWorks (an expanded, refined
> > descendant of the original Xerox Smalltalk) when I used it in class.  But
> > Squeak is a lot more manageable, and it helps to be able to tinker instead
> > of worrying about doing homework.

> Well, I downloaded both Squeak and 'Smalltalk Express'. Squeak is
> certainly more complete, SE tries to be an IDE of Smalltalk which isn't
> what it's about. However, it seems that both use lots of RAM. I often get
> out-of-memory errors when trying to multitask under Win95 with either of
> these running.

If you have less than 64 MB ... AND W95 :)

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 21 12:32:42 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: OT: Online auctins an institution?
In-Reply-To: <19981220041502.10890.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <199812211734.RAA04544@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> >No one else has figured out that the real money is in the _information_
> >about what sold at auction for what? Ever wonder why Christie's will 
> >give you a catalog of things for auction but will _sell_ you the results? On
> >line auctions are here to stay and they open a whole new area of
> >opportunity (as this list knows all too well)

> This is a very astute observation.

> I never cease to be amazed by the smarts exhibited by
> the contributors to this list.  If we could pool the brainpower
> here we could turn Capitalism on it's head. 

> But, of course, many of us are not partial to Capitalism
> so I guess we'll have to stay poor.

MAybe you miss the meaning of Capitalism - without capital,
nothing can be done - also anything is sensless but the
capital and the capital owner - so you could just fry your
brain with great things and work like a dog, but nothing
matters - or this isn't capitalism :)

Gruss
H.
Now very OT - but anyway, I still belive that capitalism
is the biggest burden on computer evulution available
(or better almost all technical advance). No basic invention
was done thru capitalist influence - right the other way,
all Inventors around the 1940s did build their machines
in a dictatorship like government driven environment (no
intelligent capitalist would have spend a single Pfennig
to build a Z3 or Mark I). Also later on things like GUI
have been developed in a non capitalist environment. Not
to mention things like the Ekta(?)plane (The caspian
monster :).




--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 21 12:32:42 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: OT Re: Another ~1960 computer kit
In-Reply-To: 
References: <981219152807.2f000ba8@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Dec 19, 98 03:28:07 pm
Message-ID: <199812211734.RAA04618@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > Clarke's law says that "Any sufficiently advanced technology is
> > indistinguishable from magic", but as far as I'm concerned light
> > bulbs, batteries, and wires still have an element of magic.  The
> > concept that by connecting these two pieces of copper, I can make
> > a bulb elsewhere glow, is magic in itself.  (Even more magical is 
> > what happens when you short out the turns of a hand-cranked magneto 
> > and try turning it...)  One has to understand these basic elements
> > of technological magic if anything worthwhile is going to be done!

> I agree totally.

Or just, think about the magic - I close a windoe and I can
still see the outside :)

> I wonder how many people here have made a light bulb, or a cell/battery 
> from scratch. OK, on this list, quite a few I would guess. Elsewhere, 
> close to 0? 

Hmm, I don't know, I think quite a lot. Back, when I was young
(Hi, yougsters :), I had a close friend (both around 12) and we
did anything that gives fun - like building explosives, fire
igniting devices, etc. Fro exaple we used ball penn springs
as heating wires to have electric controlled detonations (or
rocket ignitions). So we did some serious tests to have reliable
results (and we selectet the brand names of ball pens to 'aquire'
carfuly to get the best result:). Nuw, what I want to tell is,
he is now an account man - shifting numbers and managing senseless
stuff. So we can't assume that behinde (some) suit carrying face
is only a dump guy without any idea how the world is turning.

> I heard that a number of physics graduates from, I think US, but it 
> might have been UK, universities were given a battery, some wire, and a 
> bulb of the same voltage as the battery. The task was to light the bulb. 
> An amazing percentage (something like 80%) couldn't do it (and no, there 
> were no tricks). 

Could be Germany too - or at least we are on the same way -
maybe slow, but in a few years all breaking people will have
retired - brave new word. :( 

Von den USA lernen heist siegen lernen! OOps - wrong context :)

I ad this kind of discusion with some politicians two month
ago - the idea was that our school system has to be changed
to tell the studends more about the 'real' word - and they
belived that 'multimedia', 'pc-knowledge', etc. will do it.
So engeneers had to learn how to handle word ... Shure, on
the short run you will get better prepared people right from
the university, but on the long run none of them will be
able to do anything new - the basics are just missing - and
managing Word is no basic !

Gruss
H.




--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From cube at msn.fullfeed.com  Mon Dec 21 10:47:58 1998
From: cube at msn.fullfeed.com (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: TV Typewriter Cookbook
In-Reply-To: <199812210115.UAA01569@smtp.interlog.com>
Message-ID: 

Heh, heh.   Gloat, gloat.

I have the book, the original magazine articles, AND a TVT itself, which I
built at the time,
complete will the order-out keyboard.  I could never find the Molex
connectors one was supposed to
have, and had to make my own by taking apart an AMP connector.  The darn
MOS serial memory
chips were a royal pain - flaky as all get out.  I even built a crude UART
and hooked it up to an
acoustic coupler one day long enough to log in, buy my UART clock wasn't
crystal controlled, so I
never really used it as a terminal for dialing in.

But I did use it as a display device on my Altair for a while, until I
could afford the Processor
Technology VDM board.

Jay


At 08:10 PM 12/20/98 +0000, you wrote:
... snip ...

>
>My main find tho was a "TV Typewriter Cookbook" from Sams by Don
Lancaster, the 
>author of the TTL cookbook among others. Might be old hat to most members on 
>the list, but I find it's an amazing book. My apologies to those who've
seen it 
>before.

... snip ...

>ciao		larry
>lwalker@interlog.com
> 


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 21 12:46:24 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: OT: pushing buttons, not understanding (was RE: Another ~1960 computer kit)
In-Reply-To: <001801be2bba$8250d700$80f438cb@a.davie>
References: 
Message-ID: <199812211747.RAA05945@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > > Unfortunately, lots of "fundamental" knowledge gets left out when you
> > > skip electric lights and go to things much more complex.
> > Somewhat like grade school children using calculators instead of
> > really learning mathematics.

> 
> This is why, as curator of the Slide Rule Trading Post (SRTP), I often
> receive comments along the lines that it's a real shame that slide rules are
> no longer used in schools.  They are a perfect tool for developing an
> understanding of logarithms and how to use them.  They also make you think
> about the answer (what magnitude you expect) and help in mental estimates,
> rather than blindly relying on the numbers that come up on the screen.

> I'd still like to see slide rules return to schools.
> 


Call me heretric, but in my opinion a slide ruler and a pocket
calculator is the same. Both are calculating devices that give
a prety neat answer IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE ASKING. Before
using either you have to know what you want. If you just use
them to solve the operation instead of thinking about the process,
you just get rubbish.


Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Mon Dec 21 12:13:22 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: Son-Of-Single Instance Machines
Message-ID: 


Moving my pile into its new home, I came across the RAIR BlackBox
computer.  Looks like a PC but its not.  It has a unique bus with various
cards (hd interface, serial, parallel, etc).  I have two that I got last
year sometime.  Anyone ever hear of these and have any information about
them?  Circa 1981.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Mon Dec 21 12:19:40 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: OT: RE: Language and wiered people
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:

> Isn't that the name of the Arab who would chase Bugs Bunny out of the
> harem?  He'd wield a big saber and yell out "Sellam chop!"

You need to go directly to a video store and rent some Bugs Bunny tapes to
refresh your memory.  That was "Hassan chop!"

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From jimw at agora.rdrop.com  Mon Dec 21 12:25:36 1998
From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:25 2005
Subject: Weekend acqusitions and horny dilemmas...
Message-ID: 

(...or should that be: "on the horns of a dilemma?")

A VERY good weekend, with the possble exception of the 'Digi-Comp' that
got away (at least for the present...)

Santa dropped a whole back seat full of assorted S-100 boards and such my
way (and I drive a Suburban, so I've got a BIG back seat!)  Some assembled
units and a number of unassembled (!) kits, some still in the original
shrinkwrap/baggies!

Now the dilemma: in trolling thru the garage archives (read that: rack
shelving) recently, I came across my collection of Cromemco games (on
paper tape) for Altair (or similar), Dazzler, D+7A, and joystick.  All of
which I have in the collection except for the joystick.  I've got the docs
on it, just not the physical unit...  Until now...

And there you have the dilemma - the Cromemco joystick is one of the
(pristine) unassembled units that came in the stack!  So now, do I follow
my initial thot of building/adapting a joystick to play the games, or warm
up the soldering iron and assemble the Cromemco unit?  (which would
complete the original configuration)

Sigh...

And then there is the LOCI-2 and it's 'bed of nails' card reader...
(LOgarithmetic Computing Instrument I'm told)

...and the... 

Heath H-10!!! 

(hah!! I finally got one!)  


All of these decisions just before I start my Christmas vacation...

-jim
---
jimw@agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 21 13:28:22 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: [OT] Re: Unix Files (was Re: Xerox
In-Reply-To: <19981218191844.14271.qmail@brouhaha.com>
References: <199812181239.MAA10617@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>	(Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de)
Message-ID: <199812211829.SAA10014@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> > That's it so simple, that it's only a covered disk driver.

> No, even a file system supporting only a byte-stream model still provides
> much more service than a disk driver.

Depends - if you think about a disk driver as a RWTS thing,
you might be right, but still, byte stream is no more than
the most abstract minimum.

> > From
> > an OS I want OS services for common jobs and common solutions
> > to avoide the millionth invention of the weel. Take the simple
> > Apple DOS and their relave files - Within Unix not even this
> > simple kind of optimization is available - From a _real_ OS
> > I like to have services like SAM/ISAM fileslibrary management
> > etc. not just stupid, slow and clumbsy byte streams

> Why do you think it's better to put this functionality into an
> already-bloated monolithic kernel, rather than implementing it as
> a shared library in user space?

First, User space is user space, and all system services have to
be outside and protected. second Jep, I like to have it in system
space, as lodable services. and third, just look around among unix
systems - portable software means anything included or done from
the bottom. Reinventing the wheel. At this point, Unixes are more
worse than any stupid Windoze where every stupid applet of 1 K
coding installs 300 M of libraries...

> By keeping as much stuff as possible out of the kernel, you will
> generally end up with a more robust system.

You think so ? I you have to have one and the same coding
hundreds of times in the same system ? I call this blooded
overhead.

> > - If you
> > do it to simple, you miss the chance of geting high level
> > optimizations.

> I'm at somewhat of a loss to understand what optimizations
> the kernel could do better than a shared library with regard to
> fixed-length record access (as done by Apple DOS).

As seen above, we have to get a comon wording for kernel,
system or OS. Of course, there is _basicly_ no difference
between a shared library and a kernel service if you just
look at the coding. Its like with byte streams - basicly
its the same .... but just tell me how a kernel can do
buffer priorization as needed for a database system to
get maximum performance without knowing the meaning of
the buffers ? I inply here that you agree that priorizaton
of buffers is a function that has to be done at OS level
to improve over all performance. Just one example.

Or to get a more practical issue: Why can a programm
running in a classic /370 mainframe OS give a better
performance (in numbers of served requests and used
resources), than the same (source) programm running
on the same /370ish machine in an unix environment ?

Maybe bloaded OS vs. bloaded application is an advantage ?

Gruss
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 21 13:28:22 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: eGroups
In-Reply-To: <19981221071127.3668.qmail@findmail.com>
Message-ID: <199812211829.SAA10017@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> http://www.egroups.com  ?

> I am trying to get the classicCmp mailing list to work with it, but it doesn't show new messages. It does allow me to post from there though.

Not eGroups - pleas - if one isn't able to subscribe
a regular mailinglist, he should better stay off.
Sounds arrogant, but its a plain fact.

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Mon Dec 21 12:32:31 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: blueplanet tech page
References: <199812211109.LAA12462@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <367E943E.E7D7A4BE@bigfoot.com>

Hans Franke wrote:

> > It looks like the problems with www.blue-planet.com/tech have been fixed.  I'm
> > now able to get in with Internet Exploder 4.0 again.
>
> Who needs IE, if there's Lynx ?

Guten tag Hans. You must admit that IE does have it's usefullness - to allow you to
be able to locate programs like Opera, Lynx, NetScape, etc and download them, for
use in replacing IE.




From jimw at agora.rdrop.com  Mon Dec 21 12:35:36 1998
From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: Son-Of-Single Instance Machines
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Sam Ismail wrote:
> 
> Moving my pile into its new home, I came across the RAIR BlackBox
> computer.  Looks like a PC but its not.  It has a unique bus with various
> cards (hd interface, serial, parallel, etc).  I have two that I got last
> year sometime.  Anyone ever hear of these and have any information about
> them?  Circa 1981.

Whoa!  Now that triggers a memory or two...

I came up against that critter during a stint at Control-C software
working with (for) Andy Johnson-Laird.  I was doing an implementation of
MP/M II on it.

...or would have been if they (RAIR) had not kept changing the specs on a
weekly basis.  End run was that RAIR finally cancelled the project and I
moved on to another job...  (problem with a gig that depended on a
particular contract, eh?)

Seems like RAIR only lasted about a year after that...  At least in the
states.  Seemed like the company could never quite decide on the market
it was going after.  An interesting looking critter for its time tho...

-jim
---
jimw@agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 21 13:46:29 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: Luftschiffe (was:ebay - Minivac 601, 1st pers. digital computer 1960s)
In-Reply-To: <367AE2E4.6DCEBF1@cnct.com>
Message-ID: <199812211847.SAA11726@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>



7F00,0000,0000> > On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 gram@cnct.com wrote:

> > > facility.  Even if you get a gas leak, you're not going to crash --

> > > a large airship doesn't have one gasbag, it has a half-dozen or more

> > > ballonets inside the structure separately sealed apart from each

> > > other.

> > >From what I've heard, the reason why the US military stopped using

> > airships was because so many crashed in storms...


> Of the four rigid (Zeppelin-type) airships in the history of the US

> Navy, two failed due to weather and one to human factors:



> Though forbidden to engage enemy craft

> due to their supposed fragility, one blimp with its radio out did

> engage a German submarine in the Carribean rather than let it get

> away while they physically reported to base.  The bomb releases

> didn't work (they'd never been used), so they strafed the sub with

> their one(1) 50-cal, and took envelope damage from return fire.  The

> submarine fled while the blimp made it almost back to base before

> needing rescue.  In the 1960s the crew was given commendations (after

> decades under the cloud of court-martial for disobeying the order not

> to engage the enemy) when Admiral Rosendahl (a survivor many years

> before of the Shenandoah) found in German records an account that the

> sub had been damaged by the blimp to the point where it could not

> submerge, made it back across the Atlantic but was sunk by the Royal

> Navy in the North Sea.


Oh, new to me - interesting story - do you have the U number at

hand ? I would like to see if there is more information.


>> Airships are (maybe) the single greatest thing to have, see,

>> touch, whatever. I love them - real ones, Zeppelin stlye, not

>> these baloons with engines - But they are no more since almost

>> 50 years (the NT doesn't count in my opinion, since it is a

>> kind of a bastard - but still the most impessive I have seen

>> until today) - I whish I could have lives in the 30's - there

>> are a lot of old photographs with Zeppelin ships over Munich

>> (and of course also almost any other German city).


> Remember, Hans, there were more than a few drawbacks to living

> where you are in the 1930s -- and other than DELAG employees, 

> access to the big airships was pretty much limited to the idle

> rich, tickets were expensive.


Hmm. true (of course I would also want to be an ideling rich :).

But anyway, I just like to see one of this huge ships over my

head. In our Tram archives we have literaly thousends of old

pictures, and some with airships - I just want to see it ...

illogical, crazy, but I want.


> With technologies developed since the 1930s, the big ships could be

> practical again.  Aside from the use of helium rather than hydrogen

> (whatever the immediate cause, static electricity or sabotage or

> whatever, the Hindenberg burned because the US government forbade

> the sale of helium to Germany),


This opens again the discusion about export restrictions. I belive

any restricton just fall back on the issuing nation and common

people. Of course the Helium restrictions where made with war

in mind ... but the high time of manned airships (for war) was

already gone - I don't blame 'the Americans' or 'the US' for

the desaster - I just blame single minded, dumb or for personal

profile looking politicians ... And of course backwardness.


If a foreign 'bad' government wants somthing, they will get it.

A boycott will only help to find more inovative solutions (Regans

Star Wars is just a pice of crap compared to a lot of russian

ideas ...)


> there have been lots of things

> developed since 1937 to make airships that would be better by far

> than they were, many of them spinoffs of the heavier-than-air

> industry.  Stronger, lighter materials both for structure and

> envelopes.  Electronics and instrumentation (considering how many

> ships were destroyed by storms, such as two of the four ships the US

> Navy had, just radar is a big help, but things like computerized

> trim control and GPS come to mind). Lots of new art on aerodynamic

> design even at low speed, lots of that from the automotive industry.

> I could build a ship four times the strength and less than half the

> tare weight of the Hindenberg from the Hindenberg's blueprints

> today, but that wouldn't take into account new structural concepts

> that would improve things far more.


Have you already seen pictures of the NT ?


Gruss

Hans


--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Dec 21 13:49:35 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: blueplanet tech page
In-Reply-To: <367E943E.E7D7A4BE@bigfoot.com>
Message-ID: <199812211850.SAA11902@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> > > It looks like the problems with www.blue-planet.com/tech have been fixed.  I'm
> > > now able to get in with Internet Exploder 4.0 again.
> > Who needs IE, if there's Lynx ?

> Guten tag Hans. You must admit that IE does have it's usefullness - to allow you to
> be able to locate programs like Opera, Lynx, NetScape, etc and download them, for
> use in replacing IE.

ROTFL

point taken

So, IE is in fact a build in internet boot loader for Win98 ?
Thorn down anything against MS - they just love us ... :)

Servus
Hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From aknight at mindspring.com  Mon Dec 21 12:51:00 1998
From: aknight at mindspring.com (Alex Knight)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: IBM DisplayWriter, 5360CPU, etc. avail, Raleigh NC
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19981221135100.007f1540@mindspring.com>

Hi,

Thought I'd let ya'll know that there is an IBM Display Writer,
with monitor & Keyboard, available for $10 in Raleigh, NC.

I also saw some other stuff, like a big IBM 5360 CPU (the
size of a washer & dryer) for $1, an IBM 3174 server for
$5, an IBM 3274/1C printer for $1, an IBM 5262 printer for
$5, and an IBM 6360 dual 8" floppy drive unit for $5, all
at the same place.

Operating condition on all this stuff is unknown.

Write me off-line at "aknight@mindspring.com" if you're interested
in this stuff.  It's all too big for me to mess with.  Well,
maybe I could snag the DisplayWriter to trade for a really
interesting calculator ...

Regards,
Alex 

Calculator History & Technology Archive Web Page
http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/calc.htm





From eric at brouhaha.com  Mon Dec 21 13:28:32 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: OT: Online auctins an institution?
In-Reply-To: <199812211339.NAA02895@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
	(Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de)
References: <4.1.19981218095158.00bcbce0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> (message	from Chuck McManis on Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:55:00 -0800) <199812211339.NAA02895@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <19981221192832.15563.qmail@brouhaha.com>

I wrote:
> As soon as you start trying to do anything with the results (like sell them),
> eBay (or whoever) will be quick to point out that they own the data, and you
> aren't allowed to use it for commercial purposes without a license.

Hans replied:
> They don't own the data. Data is still not owned by anybody. As
> soon as a specific fact is published, it is free to be used. What
> they own is the copyright to _their_ reprensentation of this data
> on in _their_ publications. So everybody is free to read the final
> prices of eBay items and compile a list (or book). You don't need
> any 'licence' to use them, as long as the compilaton is your work
> and not taken without further rework other than beautifying.

Maybe in Germany.  In the US, Congress just keeps making copyright law worse
and worse, with the supposed justification of bringing us into 'compliance'
with the rest of the world.  The actual purpose is to make it easier for
large businesses to turn a quick buck, and small businesses and consumers
be damned.

There most certainly are companies that claim ownership of raw data, and there
in not yet enough established case law in this area.  Some of the courts have
ruled in favor of plaintifs in these cases.


From hansp at digiweb.com  Mon Dec 21 13:07:51 1998
From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: Rair systems
References: 
Message-ID: <367E9C87.ECCF5B30@digiweb.com>

Sam Ismail wrote:
> 
> Moving my pile into its new home, I came across the RAIR BlackBox
> computer.  Looks like a PC but its not.  It has a unique bus with various
> cards (hd interface, serial, parallel, etc).  I have two that I got last
> year sometime.  Anyone ever hear of these and have any information about
> them?  Circa 1981.

You're moving?, no chance of a garage sale is there ;-)

The Rair black box was a British machine. I probably have more info in
my extensive magazine collection but its all packed away for the moment.
Remind me in a month or two and I will look it up.

Regards

_---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___-
Hans B Pufal                          Comprehensive Computer Catalogue
             


From yowza at yowza.com  Mon Dec 21 13:57:35 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit - Philips?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981221094208.00fed4c0@pc>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, John Foust wrote:

> What does an E&S PS-300 look like?

IIRC, a big vector display in a black rounded cab, a dorm-fridge-sized 68K
box, and an assortment of doo-dads like joysticks, trackballs, dials, etc. 
The keyboard had programmable function keys, and I think it may have had
programmable LED labels as well. 

Ours was talking to a VAX, and I'd do number crunching on the VAX and send
the data to the PS-300 for display and 3-D manipulation.

> I saw one last Friday.  Or part of one.  It was a large monitor
> with the tag "Evans and Sutherland PS-300" and a digitizing tablet
> of some kind.  There was a large cable coming from it with a round
> connector and a dozen or so conductors.  I expected it to be connected
> to a large box containing the computer power, but didn't see that,
> nor any keyboard.  It was for sale for about $20 at the UW-Madison 
> surplus store.  It was so large and appeared to be missing the 
> main components, so I didn't buy it.

Bait!  :-)

> There was a Sequent S27 parallel computer there, too.  I don't
> know how many nodes it had.

Take it home and count them.  I've got two parallel boxen on my wish list,
so let me know if you bump into an Intel iPSC/1 (or /2) or a CM-1 (or any
Connection Machine, I'm not picky :-).

-- Doug



From roblwill at usaor.net  Mon Dec 21 17:22:35 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: Linux or what?
Message-ID: <01be2d38$ca8847e0$8a9ba6d1@the-general>

I don't think it is.  It's not a browser.  It's a search engine
(http://www.webcrawler.com).  The OS/2 browser may have been named that,
though.  I'm not sure.  The only version I've ever worked with is 2.1.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318


-----Original Message-----
From: Olminkhof 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 4:57 AM
Subject: Re: Linux or what?

>.
>.
>WebCrawler !!!    Is that the original browser that came with OS/2 Warp?
>You still use it?
>
>



From marvin at rain.org  Mon Dec 21 14:38:23 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: TV Typewriter Cookbook
References: 
Message-ID: <367EB1BF.6B8DE77F@rain.org>

Jay Jaeger wrote:
> 

> complete will the order-out keyboard.  I could never find the Molex
> connectors one was supposed to

Way back when, I started to build one and bought the Molex connectors
designed to go with the unit.  At that point, I didn't quite understand the
concept of front-to-back registration of the printed circuit boards, and
assumed the pc board layouts were scaled properly .  Needless to say,
they were not, and the negatives I have made were so far out of register as
to be unusable.  I have been looking for them for quite a while, and havn't
been able to find them.  It is possible I disposed of them and the plans
years ago (though I hope not.)


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 21 13:04:11 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit - Philips?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981221094208.00fed4c0@pc> from "John Foust" at Dec 21, 98 09:42:08 am
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 21 13:16:58 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: Weekend acqusitions and horny dilemmas...
In-Reply-To:  from "James Willing" at Dec 21, 98 10:25:36 am
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 21 13:14:26 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: Son-Of-Single Instance Machines
In-Reply-To:  from "Sam Ismail" at Dec 21, 98 10:13:22 am
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 21 12:50:09 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: (1960 kit) long and OT-ish.
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981220200603.00a0a750@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Dec 20, 98 08:08:17 pm
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 21 12:52:24 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: TV Typewriter Cookbook
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981220200823.00a07100@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Dec 20, 98 08:14:42 pm
Message-ID: 

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From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Mon Dec 21 15:24:25 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: IBM DisplayWriter, 5360CPU, etc. avail, Raleigh NC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19981221135100.007f1540@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Alex Knight wrote:

> I also saw some other stuff, like a big IBM 5360 CPU (the
> size of a washer & dryer) for $1, an IBM 3174 server for
> $5, an IBM 3274/1C printer for $1, an IBM 5262 printer for
> $5, and an IBM 6360 dual 8" floppy drive unit for $5, all
> at the same place.

Wow!  There's at least 200 times the total for all this in scrap value
alone.  What a bargain.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Mon Dec 21 15:26:44 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: Rair systems
In-Reply-To: <367E9C87.ECCF5B30@digiweb.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Hans B Pufal wrote:

> > Moving my pile into its new home, I came across the RAIR BlackBox
> > computer.  Looks like a PC but its not.  It has a unique bus with various
> > cards (hd interface, serial, parallel, etc).  I have two that I got last
> > year sometime.  Anyone ever hear of these and have any information about
> > them?  Circa 1981.
> 
> You're moving?, no chance of a garage sale is there ;-)

I'm moving the collection to a warehouse in Oakland where it will
eventually be open for public display (within a year I hope).

> The Rair black box was a British machine. I probably have more info in
> my extensive magazine collection but its all packed away for the moment.
> Remind me in a month or two and I will look it up.

Oh cool.  I didn't think anyone would have ever heard of these, let alone
work with one as Jim did.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Mon Dec 21 16:06:07 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: New updates to Secret Weapons of Commodore
Message-ID: <199812212206.OAA11342@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From jimw at agora.rdrop.com  Mon Dec 21 16:31:59 1998
From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: Weekend acqusitions and horny dilemmas...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:

(...to build, or not to build, a Cromemco joystick kit)

> If it was mine, I'd build the kit, but then I see no value in usassembled 
> kits other than they're to be built.
> 
> Another possibility. How complex is this joystick (not very, I guess). 
> Could you make a clone using a PC joystick mechanism and the same 
> electronics (built on stripboard, or on a copy of the PCB)?

Minimal complexity.  2 axis joystick with pots, 4 buttons (keyswitches),
and a speaker...  All of the real gutz are on the D+7A board...

Main reason for building the thing would be to have the complete original
configuration of items that were intended to run the software.

Just would not look (feel) the same with a mutant PC joystick...  The
Cormemco unit is a big sucker!  Sloped top metal project box...  A good
two hander type unit.  PC sticks would be way too small!

I feel a soldering iron session coming on!

-jim
---
jimw@agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174



From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Mon Dec 21 16:32:21 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: (1960 kit) long and OT-ish.
In-Reply-To: <199812212145.QAA00170@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA02939; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 20:04:24 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 cmcmanis@freegate.com wrote:

> Further, there have been several studies that indicate excessive warning
> stickers cause problems because they become "noise" and no one pays
> attention to the ones that they need to.

Great! Who do I sue for it?
----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 21 15:24:18 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit - Philips?
In-Reply-To:  from "Doug Yowza" at Dec 21, 98 01:57:35 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 21 16:53:37 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: HP9100 EHT oscillator transistor
Message-ID: 

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From yowza at yowza.com  Mon Dec 21 17:27:09 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit - Philips?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:

> > IIRC, a big vector display in a black rounded cab, a dorm-fridge-sized 68K
> 
> Vector? The PS-390 is certainly a raster display system, although with 
> hardware support for vector-type operations, and some kind of custom chip 
> to remove stairsteps from the displayed lines (the Shadowfax chip, I 
> think they called it).

AFAIK, the PS-300 was only capable of drawing vectors.  If there was a
facility to draw bit maps, I never used it, and it seems silly to make an
anti-aliasing raster display system that could only do vectors.

I also occassionly used an earlier PS-2 that belonged to a guy named
Livingston who did a somewhat famous film about brains using his (vector
graphics) PS.

I think the PS-300 came out just as Silicon Graphics got into the game,
and that pretty much marked the end of vector-only displays.

-- Doug



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 21 17:40:18 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit - Philips?
In-Reply-To:  from "Doug Yowza" at Dec 21, 98 05:27:09 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu  Mon Dec 21 18:20:18 1998
From: ware at xtal.pharm.nwu.edu (Scott Ware)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
Message-ID: 


Here is another small addition to the list of interesting machines that
may be scrapyard-bound as January 1, 2000 approaches.

Evans & Sutherland have recently sent a letter to the owners of ESV
workstations indicating that these systems will suffer catastrophic
failure (i.e, will refuse to boot) after January 1, 2000 due to a Y2K
problem with the system's NVRAM.  The ESV is a quite nice UNIX-based 3D
graphics workstation, and many of these systems are still in use running
specialized software (such as the 'O' molecular modeling package).  E&S
indicate that the Y2K problems with the older VAX-tethered graphics
terminals are all in the "nuisance" category, but the warning message is
certain to send many of these machines that remain to the scrapyard, as
well.

SGI also does not certify any of their systems with 68K, R2000, or R3000
processors to be Y2K compliant, presumably because they cannot run IRIX
6.5.  Watch your local scrap dealer for IRIS 2000/3000, 4D series, and
Indigo R3000 systems.

-- 
Scott Ware                       ware@xtal.pharm.nwu.edu





From yowza at yowza.com  Mon Dec 21 18:42:19 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit - Philips?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Tony Duell wrote:

> > AFAIK, the PS-300 was only capable of drawing vectors.  If there was a
> 
> I don't know if it could display bitmaps, but the manuals claim that it 
> is a raster-scanned display (the PS390 _certainly_ is a raster-scanned 
> display) that is designed to look like a vector display. 

You may be right.  Then again, I may be right.  Or we might both be right.
Here's a nice picture of a PS300 with a caption that mentions both a
vector display and a raster display (I think the little one in the middle
is a dumb terminal):
	http://www.inflab.bme.hu/hist/pictures/esps300pic.html

In any case, it was the dataflow software architecture that I found
interesting about the machine, and it reminds me of a hardware question
that you or some other hardware guru can help me with.

I found a dataflow language intriguing because it makes it clear what
processes can run in parallel.  Everything is asynchronous and event
driven, which maps nicely to the real world and even maps well to modern
GUIs and operating systems.

So, why are all modern CPUs synchronous?  Does a clock buy you anything
besides simplicity?  Why not let logic run as fast as it can and add sync
points as required, the way nature intended.

-- Doug



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Mon Dec 21 21:18:59 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: HP9100 EHT oscillator transistor
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981221211859.487f7a60@intellistar.net>

Tony,

  I have a service manual and parts list for the 9100, I'll try to help.

At 10:53 PM 12/21/98 +0000, you wrote:
>I've got an HP9100 to repair, and the first fault is that the transistor 
>on the EHT power supply board 

 Do you mean the -3500 Volt power supply board (pn 09100-66522)?  That's
the board with the large transformer on it and the focus and intensity
controls.

is short-circut all ways round.
>
>Alas the only number I have for it is the HP custom number, 1854-0322. 

   HP says "Q1 -- 1854-0322 -- Quantity 1 --- TSTR: NPN, Si --- (Mfr) 86658
--- obd"

  The notes say that "obd" means "order by description". There's a list of
manufacturer's code in the manual but 86658 isn't listed. ???  I think
those are standard codes, you may be able to look it up elsewhere.  I don't
see any other usage for that transitor anywhere else in the 9100 but from
the looks of the circuit, I doubt it's critical.  There's a good theory of
operation description of this circuit in the manual. Let me know if you
need a copy.


  Joe


>Tests on the transistor in my (working) 9100 show it's an NPN transistor, 
>but I don't want to do too many tests on it in case I damage the working 
>transistor.
>
>I've tried a few modern replacements. Most of them oscillate OK, but the 
>EHT won't regulate and sits at far too high a voltage (small, bright 
>image on the CRT). 
>
>A BF259 does seem to work, but it's hardly got sufficient ratings for 
>this circuit. I don't know how long it will last.
>
>Does anyone have any suggestions, or has been through this before?
>
>-tony
>
>



From rcini at msn.com  Mon Dec 21 18:01:39 1998
From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: Price of a Lisa 2?
Message-ID: <00a801be2d48$b9b38dc0$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>

Hello, all:

    I got a message from a German involved in the sale of a Lisa 2, and he
asked me to estimate a fair price. Not having too much experience in Lisa
pricing (unless someone wants to sell me one :-)), I told him that I'd check
it out for him.

    Here are the stats:

>Lisa II
>Working (Screen unstable).
>It has a 3-1/2 floppy drive.
>0.5 MB (or 1MB; unsure) RAM
>10 MB hard disk
>Software (all in German): LisaCalc, LisaList, LisaWrite, LisaGraph
>and the manuals (on backup disks, not on the original disks).

    What do y'all think?

[  Rich Cini/WUGNET
[   ClubWin!/CW7
[   MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
[   Collector of "classic" computers
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/
<================   reply   separator  =================>






From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Mon Dec 21 21:33:39 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: HP9100 EHT oscillator transistor
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981221213339.2507d2d6@intellistar.net>

More info:
>
>>
>>Alas the only number I have for it is the HP custom number, 1854-0322. 
>
>   HP says "Q1 -- 1854-0322 -- Quantity 1 --- TSTR: NPN, Si --- (Mfr)
86658 --- obd"
>
>  The notes say that "obd" means "order by description". There's a list of
manufacturer's code in the manual but 86658 isn't listed. ???  

  I think that manufacturer's code may be wrong in the manual. I can't find
any other parts with that code but I did find that a lot of the 1854-xxxx
transistors are made by 86684.  I looked that up, it's RCA, Electronics
Components and Devices Division in Harrison, NJ.

  Joe



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 21 19:39:50 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: HP9100 EHT oscillator transistor
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981221211859.487f7a60@intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Dec 21, 98 09:18:59 pm
Message-ID: 

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From lwalker at mail.interlog.com  Mon Dec 21 14:46:45 1998
From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: TV Typewriter Cookbook
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812210115.UAA01569@smtp.interlog.com>
Message-ID: <199812220151.UAA07605@smtp.interlog.com>

On 21 Dec 98 at 10:47, Jay Jaeger wrote:

> Heh, heh.   Gloat, gloat.
> 
> I have the book, the original magazine articles, AND a TVT itself, which I
> built at the time,
> complete will the order-out keyboard.  I could never find the Molex
> connectors one was supposed to
> have, and had to make my own by taking apart an AMP connector.  The darn
> MOS serial memory
> chips were a royal pain - flaky as all get out.  I even built a crude UART
> and hooked it up to an
> acoustic coupler one day long enough to log in, buy my UART clock wasn't
> crystal controlled, so I
> never really used it as a terminal for dialing in.
> 
> But I did use it as a display device on my Altair for a while, until I
> could afford the Processor
> Technology VDM board.
> 
> Jay
> 
 Where were the original articles published ?
 The commercial TVT pictures look really cool. The 1st Radio-Electonics
model with wooden sides has small round calculator style keys. Must have
been tough to type on but I imagine with the speed of the display it wouldn't
have mattered

ciao		larry.
lwalker@interlog.com


From lwalker at mail.interlog.com  Mon Dec 21 14:46:41 1998
From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: TV Typewriter Cookbook
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981220180427.00956d80@mcmanis.com>
References: <199812210115.UAA01569@smtp.interlog.com>
Message-ID: <199812220151.UAA07616@smtp.interlog.com>

On 20 Dec 98 at 18:25, Chuck McManis wrote:

> 
> >My main find tho was a "TV Typewriter Cookbook" from Sams by Don Lancaster, 
> >the 
> >author of the TTL cookbook among others. Might be old hat to most members on 
> >the list, but I find it's an amazing book. My apologies to those who've seen 
> >it before.
> > Wozniac and others must have been influenced by it.
> > A quote (long) from the end of the book is interesting.
> 
> Cool, I've got the follow-on book which is called the "Cheap Video
> Cookbook" that uses a 6502 as a video processor. Some interesting notes :
>          
 Im going to have to keep my eyes open for any of his books. Quite fascinating 
stuff from an historical perspective.
 Concerning his questions you have to keep in mind this was written in 1975.
As he says it may seem quaint or primitive at a later time , but these were 
accute and problematic questions then.

> > * Can a basic low-cost tv typewriter with cursor and memory be
> >   built to retail at the hobbyist level for $39.95?
> 
> A "bare bones" VGA card costs $9.95, If you can find a CGA card they are less.
> 
> > * Can a miniature calculator-style ASCII keyboard and encoder with
>     
> >    quality features (2KRO, choice of strobe, tactile response, two shot     
> >    keys) be built to retail at the hobbyist level for $14.95?
> 
> A 101 key IBM PC compatible keyboard is now around $8.00 new, $1.00 surplus.
> 
> > * What is the longest length and highest character quality that can be
>     
> >    obtained with direct rf entry of an unmodified tv set?
> 
> You can easily do 85 x 30 lines on a modern TV using the S-video input.
> 
> > * Can you build a legal, universal, single-channel rf modulator to retail
>     
> >   at the hobbyist level for $4.95?
> 
> Yes, and from a surplus dealer they are $0.75
> 
> > * What is the minimum possible cost for a snap-on Selectric base-plate
>     
> >    adapter and converter? How fast will it operate? Can it be made to       
> >    enter as well as print?
> 
> Don't know...
> 

 Actally he had the specs to do just that in the book.

> > * How do you add light-pen feedback to graphic and tvt displays?
> 
> Interrupts. Most mono-chrome PC cards had Light pen input.
> 
> > * Can a single microprocessor such as an MOS Technology 6502 provide all
>     
> >    the timing and control for a stand-alone tvt?
> 
> Yes, and he goes on to prove it in the Cheap Video Cookbook. These days I'd
> consider using a PIC.
> 
> > * What are the most effective software and algorithms needed for graphic
>     
> >    display games and puzzles?
> 
> Turns out the bit-blt was pretty prevalent here.
> 
> > * Can you design a simple CPU backup for a graphics tvt that will move
>     
> >    chessmen following chess notation, e.g., Bishop to King's Rook 5?
> 
> Again, this is something Don does in the Cheap Video Cookbook.
> 
> > * Can you build a basic compiler on a chip or two?
> 
> Yes, witness the BASIC Stamp, the Phoenix, etc. 
> 
> You can also build BASIC into a chip, vis-a-vis the 8052AH 
> 
> > * What is the setup needed for a tvt-oriented wordprocessing system to
>     
> >    be used for addressing, printing form letters, and so on? Can this be    
> >    done without a CPU?
> 
> Olivetti did it in 1988, there may have been others.
> 
> > * What is the simplest and cheapest dedicated "super front panel" tvt       
> >    configuration you can come up with that will read out the entire memory  
> >    contents of a microcomputer a page at a time? ? Can you make it          
> >    sequentially read out locations in hex or octa1 instead of ASCII?
> 
> ???
> 
> > * Can you come up with a simple and universal locking system for video
>     
> >    titling and superposition on existing EIA sync programs, both for        
> >    studio and home video-recording uses? Can you make it crawl, have         
> >    variable character size and shape, etc.?
> 
> Genloc chips from Motorola do this.
> 
> > * How do you use a tvt for printed-circuit and schematic layouts?
> 
> These days it is "How else would you do it?"
> 
> > * What is he best way a CPU and tvt can interact with an electronic          
> >    music synthesis system?
> 
> Thru an LCD panel? Most keyboards these days come with 4 line or better
> LCD panels. Then again, with a Monster Sound MX300 you've got a pretty
> good synth inside your computer!
> 
> > * What about video art synthesis? Can you build a super spirograph? Make
>     
> >    it follow music?
> 
> Seen homebrew versions, never a commercial one.
> 
> --Chuck
> 
lwalker@interlog.com


From neil at goodnet.com  Mon Dec 21 19:22:04 1998
From: neil at goodnet.com (Neil B. Sheldon Sr)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: Pertec PCC-2000
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981221182204.00f18320@207.98.129.100>

Hi,

 Has anyone seen, heard of, or know any who has a Pertec-2000 machine? I
would like to discuss documentation with them.

								Neil.



From yowza at yowza.com  Mon Dec 21 19:57:54 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: Price of a Lisa 2?
In-Reply-To: <00a801be2d48$b9b38dc0$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote:

> >Lisa II
> >Working (Screen unstable).
> >It has a 3-1/2 floppy drive.
> >0.5 MB (or 1MB; unsure) RAM
> >10 MB hard disk
> >Software (all in German): LisaCalc, LisaList, LisaWrite, LisaGraph
> >and the manuals (on backup disks, not on the original disks).

Sounds like a Lisa 2/10 that wasn't Mac XL'd.  Believe it or not, the
(original) software and manuals alone sold for $568 on eOverpay recently. 
But a working Lisa 2/10 seems to only bring $200-$300 (unless it includes
a printer, then it's back up to $551; go figure).

Tell him to fix the screen, and it should bring an extra $250 from those
who can't fix the screen themselves.

-- Doug



From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Mon Dec 21 20:11:27 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: OT question for electronics wizards
Message-ID: <199812220211.TAA10739@calico.litterbox.com>

Hi.  Just a quick question which is kind of off topic - with switched power
supplies like those in modern PCs, when it says the input current is 7 amps at
115 volts, is that the constant no matter how much the computer itself draws,
or the maximum, no matter what?  If it's the latter my computer room is 
going to need more circuits in a big hurry...
-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From cfandt at netsync.net  Mon Dec 21 20:13:17 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <4.1.19981221210652.00ac4890@206.231.8.2>

At 18:20 12/21/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
>Here is another small addition to the list of interesting machines that
>may be scrapyard-bound as January 1, 2000 approaches.
>
>Evans & Sutherland have recently sent a letter to the owners of ESV
   -- snip --

>SGI also does not certify any of their systems with 68K, R2000, or R3000
>processors to be Y2K compliant, presumably because they cannot run IRIX
>6.5.  Watch your local scrap dealer for IRIS 2000/3000, 4D series, and
>Indigo R3000 systems.

Don't forget Hamfests/Radio Rallys or computerfest flea markets. These have
always turned up goodies for us in the past. Finding stuff like the above
should be even more frequent because of the Y2K thing at least for the next
several years. Good times comin' for us big iron or business computer
collectors :)

Regards,  Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/


From pctech at davidbowie.com  Mon Dec 21 20:14:06 1998
From: pctech at davidbowie.com (PCTech)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: HELP
Message-ID: <001f01be2d50$c689b620$97b6adce@appclient>

I have a Laser 128 i am trying to restore i have it working only thing is it is not doing anything. I have a screen that says:
     
                                                            LASER 128  ROM Version 2.9
                                                            (C) Copyright 1985, 1986
                                                            Central Point Software, Inc.
                                                            BASIC (C) 1982 Microsoft
                                                            All rights reserved

That is in the left hand corner.But it goes no further,Does anyone have any idea what is going on???? i have never messed with one of these and i dont know what its going on here.PLEASE help me!!! Do i need disks????
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From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Mon Dec 21 20:17:30 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: OT question for electronics wizards
In-Reply-To: <199812220211.TAA10739@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Dec 21, 1998 07:11:27 PM
Message-ID: <199812220217.TAA10797@calico.litterbox.com>

> Hi.  Just a quick question which is kind of off topic - with switched power
> supplies like those in modern PCs, when it says the input current is 7 amps at
> 115 volts, is that the constant no matter how much the computer itself draws,
> or the maximum, no matter what?  If it's the latter my computer room is 
> going to need more circuits in a big hurry...

gaa.  remind me again that English is my native language...

Okay.  Let's try again.  When it says it wants 7 amps at 115, does it ALWAYS
want 7 amps at 115volts?  or only when the computer it's driving really wants
all 300 watts it can put out?


-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From gareth.knight2 at which.net  Mon Dec 21 20:25:42 1998
From: gareth.knight2 at which.net (Gareth Knight)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: Commodore machines that never made it?
Message-ID: <09fc01be2d52$6054f020$2f69a8c2@gareth.knight2>

Doug Spence wrote:
>For another piece of Commodore software... would Mind Walker count?  It
>was (c)1986 Commodore-Amiga/Synapse IIRC (which I may not).  I don't know
>if the packaging, etc, was Commodore's or if it was Synapse.  Commodore
>had the trademark on the name, though, because Amiga Technologies used
>Mind Walker as the name for a web browser during the ESCOM era.


Mind Walker wasn't just the name of a browser (which, incidentally reverted
to the original title of "Voyager"). It was the name given to a new Amiga
that Amiga Technologies, the Escom subsidiary were releasing. The system was
to include a 68030 processor, CD-ROM, and 500Mb+ hard drive as standard.
Check out
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Sector/7478/walker.html for more
info.
--
Gareth Knight
Amiga Interactive Guide | ICQ No. 24185856
   http://welcome.to/aig    | "Shine on your star"



From rexstout at uswest.net  Mon Dec 21 20:40:56 1998
From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: HELP
In-Reply-To: <001f01be2d50$c689b620$97b6adce@appclient>
Message-ID: 

>That is in the left hand corner.But it goes no
>further,Does anyone have any idea what is going
>on???? i have never messed with  one of these
>and i dont know what its going on here.PLEASE
>help me!!! Do i need  disks????

Yep, you need disks. Go get a copy of ProDOS or some other Apple II OS. I
don't know where to find them, bet there's lots of Apple II stuff on the
internet and I know that there are disk images out ther SOMEWHERE. Try the
comp.sys.apple2 FAQ, and of course some WebCrawler searches wouldn't hurt...


--------------------------------------------------------------
| http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers |
| http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek     |
|   orham@qth.net   list admin                KD7BCY         |
|   ham-mac@qth.net                        Portland, OR      |
--------------------------------------------------------------




From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Mon Dec 21 20:42:04 1998
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
In-Reply-To: Scott Ware 
        "Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up" (Dec 21, 18:20)
References: 
Message-ID: <9812220242.ZM24740@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Dec 21, 18:20, Scott Ware wrote:

> SGI also does not certify any of their systems with 68K, R2000, or R3000
> processors to be Y2K compliant, presumably because they cannot run IRIX
> 6.5.  Watch your local scrap dealer for IRIS 2000/3000, 4D series, and
> Indigo R3000 systems.

IRIX 5.3 and above are all Y2K compliant (providing they include the
rlevant patches).

Indigo R3000 and 4D systems running IRIX 5.3 *will* take all the Y2K
patches (there aren't many, since 5.3 was mostly Y2K compliant anyway).  I
know; I did a survey on this earlier this year, and I've just finished
(literally, about 5 minutes ago) installing the Y2K patches on an Indigo
Elan for my wife's Christmas present.  Of course, if you can get one at a
reasonable price, an Indigo is a very nice classic (though not quite by
this list's definition, it was released in 1991) machine.  Now if only I
could get a copy of Star Office or Word Perfect for Irix 5.3...

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York


From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au  Mon Dec 21 20:45:18 1998
From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: HP9100 EHT oscillator transistor
Message-ID: <008a01be2d55$1cc38bc0$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Tuesday, 22 December 1998 10:32
Subject: HP9100 EHT oscillator transistor


>I've got an HP9100 to repair, and the first fault is that the transistor
>on the EHT power supply board is short-circut all ways round.
>
>Alas the only number I have for it is the HP custom number, 1854-0322.
>Tests on the transistor in my (working) 9100 show it's an NPN transistor,
>but I don't want to do too many tests on it in case I damage the working
>transistor.
>
>I've tried a few modern replacements. Most of them oscillate OK, but the
>EHT won't regulate and sits at far too high a voltage (small, bright
>image on the CRT).


Certainly indicative of high eht.>

>A BF259 does seem to work, but it's hardly got sufficient ratings for
>this circuit. I don't know how long it will last.


What voltages are on the transistor in the working unit?
What sort of package is the transistor in?

Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Systems Manager
Saint Marks College
Port Pirie  South Australia.
My ICQ# is 1970476
Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile)
      61-8-8633-0619 (Home)
      61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct)
      61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)




From spc at armigeron.com  Mon Dec 21 20:51:21 1998
From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
In-Reply-To: <9812220242.ZM24740@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Dec 22, 98 02:42:04 am
Message-ID: <199812220251.VAA26511@armigeron.com>

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From cfandt at netsync.net  Mon Dec 21 21:00:35 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: OT question for electronics wizards
In-Reply-To: <199812220211.TAA10739@calico.litterbox.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981221212138.00abf690@206.231.8.2>

At 19:11 12/21/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi.  Just a quick question which is kind of off topic - with switched power
>supplies like those in modern PCs, when it says the input current is 7 amps at
>115 volts, is that the constant no matter how much the computer itself draws,

That's the rating of the mains input when the power supply is fully loaded.
This means that when all the outputs are run at their maximum design rating
(using example values quickly thought up: 30 Amps on the +5V, 7 Amps on the
+12V, 0.5 A. on the -12V) about 7 Amps would be drawn from the mains.

Having the PC box absolutely stuffed full of the really old high current
draw boards and a couple of old technology hard drives could push the mains
draw towards the max mains input rating. I've never been able to overload a
200 Watt PC PSU (yet).

>or the maximum, no matter what?  If it's the latter my computer room is 
>going to need more circuits in a big hurry...

I imagine if your hardware is quite modern, a 7 Amp draw from each of your
PC boxes is not at all possible. I would guess half that nowadays, at most,
for a typical PC setup. Russ B.? You're one of the folks who work with a
lot of PC gear. Are my experiences and conclusions in line with what you've
seen?

Regards, Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/


From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Mon Dec 21 21:02:55 1998
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:26 2005
Subject: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
In-Reply-To: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" 
        "Re: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up" (Dec 21, 21:51)
References: <199812220251.VAA26511@armigeron.com>
Message-ID: <9812220302.ZM24802@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Dec 21, 21:51, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote:

>   Um, IRIX is a Unix derivative, right?  What about IRIX ISN'T Y2K
> compliant?  2038 compliant, I can see, but 2000?  Do these companies go
out
> fo their way to make stuff non-Y2k compilant?

Lots of things in many Unix versions are potentially non-Y2K compliant --
anything that handles date input/output in ASCII could be, or anything that
depends on a RTC chip that only stores the year as two digits.  Common
culprits are at(1) and date(1) but SGI have a list of issues on one of
their support pages, as do Sun and some other vendors.



-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York


From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Mon Dec 21 21:04:26 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: HELP
In-Reply-To:  from "John Rollins" at Dec 21, 1998 06:40:56 PM
Message-ID: <199812220304.UAA10996@calico.litterbox.com>

> >That is in the left hand corner.But it goes no
> >further,Does anyone have any idea what is going
> >on???? i have never messed with  one of these
> >and i dont know what its going on here.PLEASE
> >help me!!! Do i need  disks????
> 
> Yep, you need disks. Go get a copy of ProDOS or some other Apple II OS. I
> don't know where to find them, bet there's lots of Apple II stuff on the
> internet and I know that there are disk images out ther SOMEWHERE. Try the
> comp.sys.apple2 FAQ, and of course some WebCrawler searches wouldn't hurt...
> 
> 
alltech is a licensed supplier of boot disks.   www.allelec.com 

you can get the disks from apple's FTP site, but without a boot disk of 
any kind that doesn't help you much.

Byteworks also sells them.
http://www.hypermall.com/byteworks/

-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From dburrows at netpath.net  Mon Dec 21 21:03:53 1998
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: OT question for electronics wizards
Message-ID: <009c01be2d57$d8ce0e60$bf281bce@p166>

>Okay.  Let's try again.  When it says it wants 7 amps at 115, does it
ALWAYS
>want 7 amps at 115volts?  or only when the computer it's driving really
wants
>all 300 watts it can put out?
>
It would have to be an awfully inefficient switched to draw 7 amps at full
load.(300w).  I would guess that there is a second NEMA connector to plug a
monitor into.  The load of that AND the PC at full loading(spinning up HD's
etc.) might add up to 7 amps @ 115v
Dan



From ddameron at earthlink.net  Mon Dec 21 21:32:34 1998
From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: OT question for electronics wizards
Message-ID: <199812220332.TAA27758@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

At 07:17 PM 12/21/98 -0700, you wrote:

>gaa.  remind me again that English is my native language...
>
>Okay.  Let's try again.  When it says it wants 7 amps at 115, does it ALWAYS
>want 7 amps at 115volts?  or only when the computer it's driving really wants
>all 300 watts it can put out?
>
>
It probably has a 7Amp fuse inside, so the 7 Amps is just the max surge
current. Even then most PC power supplies have less turn on surge current
than a color TV because they have a negative temp coeff. surge resistor in
series with the power input. Many TV's I've seen do not.

Because of lower power disk drives, most PC's draw much less power than one
may expect. Feel the air flow exiting from the PSU to get an indication of
the heat load. Take out all the computer stuff from the case and put a light
bulb inside as a comparison. One can also measure the currents on each of
the DC leads (with an adapter because there are, for example, multiple 5
Volt leads).
-Dave
 



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 21 21:32:19 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: OT question for electronics wizards
In-Reply-To: <199812220211.TAA10739@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Dec 21, 98 07:11:27 pm
Message-ID: 

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From allisonp at world.std.com  Mon Dec 21 21:36:22 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: OT question for electronics wizards
Message-ID: <199812220336.AA24653@world.std.com>


References: <199812220211.TAA10739@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Dec 21, 98 07:11:27 pm
Message-ID: <199812220350.WAA19586@mail.cgocable.net>

> Date:          Tue, 22 Dec 1998 03:32:19 +0000 (GMT)
> Reply-to:      classiccmp@u.washington.edu
> From:          ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
> To:            "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
> Subject:       Re: OT question for electronics wizards

> > 
> > Hi.  Just a quick question which is kind of off topic - with switched power
> > supplies like those in modern PCs, when it says the input current is 7 amps at
> > 115 volts, is that the constant no matter how much the computer itself draws,
> > or the maximum, no matter what?  If it's the latter my computer room is 
> 
> No, it's the maximum current that the supply could draw if all the 
> outputs (probably including the mains output to the monitor) are fully 
> loaded.
> 
> With less load, the input current will also be a lot less. 
> 
> -tony

Don't forget these PSU's is still appox 65% efficient conversion
to supply up to 235 watts worth on output means shows 387.8W on input
side.  I could be wrong and show me correct way to calcalute this?

Don't forget that newer drives power draws are creeping up yearly.  I 
noticed when I was looking to see how low is low power hd at active 
and in ldling (ready, spinning, all chipsets powered.)
Appox 10~13W is not too far off mark.

Oh, the PII and K6-2, future K7 are drawing so much that I notice the 
vast heat output from the exhaust fan on PSU's.
Nearly barely lukewarm (trepid) on these Pentium and below.

Don't some special or vendors who makes power supplies better than 
80% efficient?

email: jpero@cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 21 21:48:48 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: HP9100 EHT oscillator transistor
In-Reply-To: <008a01be2d55$1cc38bc0$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> from "Geoff Roberts" at Dec 22, 98 01:15:18 pm
Message-ID: 

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From mcquiggi at sfu.ca  Mon Dec 21 22:17:24 1998
From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Info Needed: Motorola EXORcisor 6800 System
Message-ID: <199812220417.UAA05566@fraser.sfu.ca>

Hi Again:

Anybody else have one of these? I understand that Bill Yakowenko (sp?)
does, but don't have his email.

Any and all info appreciated. There's nothing on ther web that I can find.
It dates from 1975.

Kevin

-- 
Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD
mcquiggi@sfu.ca


From rws at eagle.ais.net  Mon Dec 21 22:24:17 1998
From: rws at eagle.ais.net (Richard W. Schauer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Bernoulli Box
Message-ID: <199812220424.WAA09698@eagle.ais.net>

Hi everybody-

A while back I got an Iomega Bernoulli Box at a hamfest, along with a big
stack of cartridges.  It's almost the exact same size, shape, and style as
an XT, with dual 10MB 8" drives.  I also got the sort-of-SCSI host adapter
card.  I didn't worry much about asking the guy about drivers, because,
hey, there's a bazillion Bernoulli Box users out there, right?  Wrong.  I
can't seem to find anything of use on the web, Iomega's site doesn't yield
anything except that the drivers that sound like they should work, have a
line buried deep in the readme file that says that they don't support 8"
drives.  So, I ask:

Does anyone have the drivers for Bernoulli Box 10MB 8" Alpha drives?  I'd
really appreciate a copy.

Thanks,

Richard

ps. The pictures of the weird systems I promised a while back- I'm still
working on them.  The film's still got some exposures left.



From wpfulmor at dimensional.com  Mon Dec 21 22:32:36 1998
From: wpfulmor at dimensional.com (William Fulmor)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
In-Reply-To: <199812220251.VAA26511@armigeron.com>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote:

>   -spc (Can't comprehend what would break on a Unix system come 2000 ... )

Well, on the unixpc (att 7300/3b1), it is not possible to set a date >
12/31/99 thru either the setup screen or the 'date' utility.  it is
possible to 'walk' the date into 2000 by setting 12/31/99 23:59.  Once
over the hump it is then possible to advance to 23:59 12/31/00, etc.  But
two digit dates in 2000 display mm/yy/100 (sic).  Does that count as
broke?  :).

Date arithmetic seems to work OK beyond 01/01/00 tho.

Moral: Install a new clock battery for Xmas '99 and keep goin'.

Bill



From dburrows at netpath.net  Mon Dec 21 22:36:41 1998
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
Message-ID: <010001be2d64$d50581c0$bf281bce@p166>

>Well, on the unixpc (att 7300/3b1), it is not possible to set a date >
>12/31/99 thru either the setup screen or the 'date' utility.  it is
>possible to 'walk' the date into 2000 by setting 12/31/99 23:59.  Once
>over the hump it is then possible to advance to 23:59 12/31/00, etc.  But
>two digit dates in 2000 display mm/yy/100 (sic).  Does that count as
>broke?  :).
>
>Date arithmetic seems to work OK beyond 01/01/00 tho.


Don't forget to check Feb 29 2000.  There are some systems that break there.
Dan



From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Mon Dec 21 22:53:10 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Bernoulli Box
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 12/21/98 11:25:01 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
rws@eagle.ais.net writes:

> A while back I got an Iomega Bernoulli Box at a hamfest, along with a big
>  stack of cartridges.  It's almost the exact same size, shape, and style as
>  an XT, with dual 10MB 8" drives

ive got two of these drives, one dual and one single with ~40 carts and no
controller card. i havent been able to find much info either. shirley they
were popular in their day? 


From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com  Mon Dec 21 22:57:32 1998
From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Scott Ware wrote:

> 
> Here is another small addition to the list of interesting machines that
> may be scrapyard-bound as January 1, 2000 approaches.
> 
> Evans & Sutherland have recently sent a letter to the owners of ESV
> workstations indicating that these systems will suffer catastrophic
> failure (i.e, will refuse to boot) after January 1, 2000 due to a Y2K
> problem with the system's NVRAM.  The ESV is a quite nice UNIX-based 3D
> graphics workstation, and many of these systems are still in use running
> specialized software (such as the 'O' molecular modeling package).  E&S
> indicate that the Y2K problems with the older VAX-tethered graphics
> terminals are all in the "nuisance" category, but the warning message is
> certain to send many of these machines that remain to the scrapyard, as
> well.
> 
> SGI also does not certify any of their systems with 68K, R2000, or
> R3000 processors to be Y2K compliant, presumably because they cannot
> run IRIX 6.5.  Watch your local scrap dealer for IRIS 2000/3000, 4D
> series, and Indigo R3000 systems. -- Scott Ware
> ware@xtal.pharm.nwu.edu


Hopefully, there will be a bunch of Sun 3's too...according to their web
site, there's no Y2K support for them at all...



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Dec 21 23:12:33 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

>Hopefully, there will be a bunch of Sun 3's too...according to their web
>site, there's no Y2K support for them at all...

My guess would be any Sun that only runs SunOS isn't, and won't be Y2k.  To
the best of my knowledge they've no intention of making SunOS Y2k as they
want you running Solaris.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From eric at brouhaha.com  Mon Dec 21 23:14:27 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: OT question for electronics wizards
In-Reply-To: <009c01be2d57$d8ce0e60$bf281bce@p166> (dburrows@netpath.net)
References: <009c01be2d57$d8ce0e60$bf281bce@p166>
Message-ID: <19981222051427.1288.qmail@brouhaha.com>

"Daniel T. Burrows"  wrote:
> It would have to be an awfully inefficient switched to draw 7 amps at full
> load.(300w).

The 7A figure (for the AC input) printed on the supply is the peak current;
the power supply will not ever draw 7A continuous.

Keep in mind that for AC, it is NOT necessarily the case that
watts = volts * amps.  That relation is only true for a perfectly resistive
load.  For such a load, the voltage vs. time and current vs. time waveforms
and sinusoidal and exactly in phase.

Most computers and other devices with switching power supplies present a
highly non-linear load and draw a disproportionate fraction of their power
consumption at the peaks of the cycle.

If the computer consumed 300W on 115V mains and presented a perfectly
resistive load, you would expect the average current to be about 2.6A, and
the maximum to be about 3.7A (at the peak of the cycle when the line voltage
is around 170V).  But because it is not a resistive load, it actually will
draw more than 3.7A peak.

This is why the maximum load of a UPS is rated in VA or KVA, rather than in
watts.

Inductive loads are even less well-behaved than switching power supplies.
Their current waveform is sinusoidal, but out of phase with the voltage.
The electric utilities don't like this very much, which is why Power Factor
Correction has become such a big thing recently.

Eric


From donm at cts.com  Mon Dec 21 23:14:58 1998
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Bernoulli Box
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 12/21/98 11:25:01 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> rws@eagle.ais.net writes:
> 
> > A while back I got an Iomega Bernoulli Box at a hamfest, along with a big
> >  stack of cartridges.  It's almost the exact same size, shape, and style as
> >  an XT, with dual 10MB 8" drives
> 
> ive got two of these drives, one dual and one single with ~40 carts and no
> controller card. i havent been able to find much info either. shirley they
> were popular in their day? 
 
What card do they need?  I have a controller card identified as follows:

  	  01351905-01
	PC2B50F 03-09-92
	  S/N 2A0264

It is a 1/3rd length 8-bit ISA card with 50 pin header at the top near 
the bracket end and a 50 pin D-sub on the bracket.  There are four 3-pin 
Berg jumpers and an 8 position DIP switch on the card as well.

						 - don



From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com  Mon Dec 21 23:17:15 1998
From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote:

> >Hopefully, there will be a bunch of Sun 3's too...according to their web
> >site, there's no Y2K support for them at all...
> 
> My guess would be any Sun that only runs SunOS isn't, and won't be Y2k.  To
> the best of my knowledge they've no intention of making SunOS Y2k as they
> want you running Solaris.

I'll have to check the site again...we don't run any SunOS machines, so I
didn't pay too much attention. But I was under the impression that any Y2K
problem with the Sun3's was about the NVRAM, and that there are patches
available for some of the 4/xxx series and the Sparcs that are still
running the most current SunOS.



From jruschme at exit109.com  Mon Dec 21 23:16:42 1998
From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
In-Reply-To:  from Aaron Christopher Finney at "Dec 21, 98 08:57:32 pm"
Message-ID: <199812220516.AAA28664@crobin.home.org>

> On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Scott Ware wrote:
> > SGI also does not certify any of their systems with 68K, R2000, or
> > R3000 processors to be Y2K compliant, presumably because they cannot
> > run IRIX 6.5.  Watch your local scrap dealer for IRIS 2000/3000, 4D
> > series, and Indigo R3000 systems. -- Scott Ware
> > ware@xtal.pharm.nwu.edu
> 
> Hopefully, there will be a bunch of Sun 3's too...according to their web
> site, there's no Y2K support for them at all...

If so, then someone please save me a 3/80 (or at least the motherboard
for one). thanks...

<<>>


From red at bears.org  Mon Dec 21 23:27:27 1998
From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote:

> My guess would be any Sun that only runs SunOS isn't, and won't be Y2k.  To
> the best of my knowledge they've no intention of making SunOS Y2k as they
> want you running Solaris.

There are SunOS 4.1.x y2k patches.

-- 
ok
r.					r e d  @  b e a r s . o r g
					===========================
					[ urs longa | vita brevis ]



From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au  Mon Dec 21 23:40:30 1998
From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: HP9100 EHT oscillator transistor
Message-ID: <020501be2d6d$981746a0$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>


-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Tuesday, 22 December 1998 15:24
Subject: Re: HP9100 EHT oscillator transistor



>If it is a 2N1701, then the maximum collector current for that device is
>2.5A. The transistor is part of a blocking oscillator using the EHT
>transformer, the supply to which is fused at 750mA. But the maximum
>collector current for a BF259 is only 100mA. I am suprised it worked at
>all, but work it did.


It will be a short life I suspect.  It's probably drawing around 200ma.

>The maximum voltage is not a problem. The oscillator runs off an
>unregulated 20V line, and there are no HV spikes flying around. The
>2N1701 is only rated at 60-odd volts, which the BF259 (or any of the
>other transistors I've tried) can stand trivially.


Well, a 2SD350 or 380 are fairly common HOP transistors, they will certainly
run at line freq, I don't have a data book handy, but they have Ic ratings
of well over an amp.  2N3055 might work too, though I'm not certain it could
handle the frequency.  They all have TO3 cases though, so mounting it might
be a headache.

If I can dig up a data book in this mess I'll see what else I can come up
with.

Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Systems Manager
Saint Marks College
Port Pirie  South Australia.
My ICQ# is 1970476
Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile)
      61-8-8633-0619 (Home)
      61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct)
      61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)



From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au  Mon Dec 21 23:43:24 1998
From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
Message-ID: <021801be2d6d$fe43e460$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>

-----Original Message-----
From: Zane H. Healy 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Tuesday, 22 December 1998 16:40
Subject: Re: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up


>>Hopefully, there will be a bunch of Sun 3's too...according to their web
>>site, there's no Y2K support for them at all...


Good.

>My guess would be any Sun that only runs SunOS isn't, and won't be Y2k.  To
>the best of my knowledge they've no intention of making SunOS Y2k as they
>want you running Solaris.


Probably.   I think NetBSD runs on Sun 3's now.   So it should be possible
to
keep them going with that, (or just lie about the date!)

Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Systems Manager
Saint Marks College
Port Pirie  South Australia.
My ICQ# is 1970476
Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile)
      61-8-8633-0619 (Home)
      61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct)
      61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)



From pctech at davidbowie.com  Mon Dec 21 23:41:20 1998
From: pctech at davidbowie.com (PCTech)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: HELP
Message-ID: <000801be2d6d$b7683e60$b2c4adce@appclient>

OK this thing is a trip if i keep turning it off and then on it boots to a
prompt but if i just turn it on the 5 1\4 drive just stays on and it does
nothing.I would be led to believe that there is something wrong.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Strickland 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: HELP


>> >That is in the left hand corner.But it goes no
>> >further,Does anyone have any idea what is going
>> >on???? i have never messed with  one of these
>> >and i dont know what its going on here.PLEASE
>> >help me!!! Do i need  disks????
>>
>> Yep, you need disks. Go get a copy of ProDOS or some other Apple II OS. I
>> don't know where to find them, bet there's lots of Apple II stuff on the
>> internet and I know that there are disk images out ther SOMEWHERE. Try
the
>> comp.sys.apple2 FAQ, and of course some WebCrawler searches wouldn't
hurt...
>>
>>
>alltech is a licensed supplier of boot disks.   www.allelec.com
>
>you can get the disks from apple's FTP site, but without a boot disk of
>any kind that doesn't help you much.
>
>Byteworks also sells them.
>http://www.hypermall.com/byteworks/
>
>--
>Jim Strickland
>jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------



From eric at brouhaha.com  Tue Dec 22 00:03:18 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: HP9100 EHT oscillator transistor
In-Reply-To:  (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk)
References: 
Message-ID: <19981222060318.1538.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Tony Duell wrote:
> I've got an HP9100 to repair, and the first fault is that the transistor 
> on the EHT power supply board is short-circut all ways round.
> 
> Alas the only number I have for it is the HP custom number, 1854-0322. 

A friend who works for HP looked it up in their database, and emailed me
the following information:

    1854-0322, Silicon Power NPN TO-8 can transistor,
               IC = 2.5 A max
               PD = 25W max at TC

               Electrical:
                 BVCEQ = 40 V min
                 HFE   = 20 min to 100 max at IC=300 MA
                 VCE(SAT) = 12.5 V max at IC = 2.5 A

    Suppliers were listed as RCS, Harris and GECO (General Electric I think).

    Maybe this will be enough data to figure out a good replacement.

    Hope this helps!  BTW, at 25 W max power dissipation, I'd make sure there
    was a heat sink on the TO-8 can!

These specs do sound pretty similar to a 2N1701.  The TO-8 case is apparently
similar to the TO-5 case but larger.  'RCS' was probably supposed to be RCA,
since RCA did make the 2N1701.

It's unfortunate that he was not able to get the vendor part numbers, but
I doubt that the original parts are still made.

Motorola claims that the replacment for a 2N1701 is a 2N4910, which is in
a TO-66 case (like a TO-3, only smaller).  Unfortunately this is not a good
mechanical replacement for the TO-8.

Searching for 2N1701 with Altavista revealed several companies that may
stock them.

Rich suggests that you might also consider the MJE340.  But the pinout
is in the wrong order as compared to the 2N1701.

Cheers,
Eric





From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Tue Dec 22 00:05:51 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Kids these days (was: Another ~1960 computer kit)
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981221161651.3cefde5a@ricochet.net>

>LEGO MindStorms, the lucky bastards.

Heehee, aren't we though?  8^)


--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                       http://www.sinasohn.com/



From marvin at rain.org  Tue Dec 22 00:27:02 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Bernoulli Box
References: <199812220424.WAA09698@eagle.ais.net>
Message-ID: <367F3BB6.B224740A@rain.org>

Richard W. Schauer wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have the drivers for Bernoulli Box 10MB 8" Alpha drives?  I'd
> really appreciate a copy.

I have the drivers for the 20 MB Bernouli boxes but I don't know if they
will work on the 10 MB.  Let me know, and I'd be happy to email them to
you.  They came on 360K disks and I don't recall if there are one or two
disks.


From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Tue Dec 22 00:30:53 1998
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
In-Reply-To: Aaron Christopher Finney 
        "Re: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up" (Dec 21, 21:17)
References: 
Message-ID: <9812220630.ZM25617@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Dec 21, 21:17, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote:
> Subject: Re: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
> On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote:
>
> > My guess would be any Sun that only runs SunOS isn't, and won't be Y2k.
 To
> > the best of my knowledge they've no intention of making SunOS Y2k as
they
> > want you running Solaris.
>
> I'll have to check the site again...we don't run any SunOS machines, so I
> didn't pay too much attention. But I was under the impression that any
Y2K
> problem with the Sun3's was about the NVRAM,

No, while they do have a problem with the NVRAM/clock chip, that's far from
the only issue with SunOS.

> and that there are patches
> available for some of the 4/xxx series and the Sparcs that are still
> running the most current SunOS.

Which is not usable on a Sun3.  "Current SunOS" is Solaris 2.6.

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York


From A_Finney at wfi-inc.com  Tue Dec 22 01:04:02 1998
From: A_Finney at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
In-Reply-To: <9812220630.ZM25617@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote:

> On Dec 21, 21:17, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote:
> > Subject: Re: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
> > On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> >
> > > My guess would be any Sun that only runs SunOS isn't, and won't be Y2k.
>  To
> > > the best of my knowledge they've no intention of making SunOS Y2k as
> they
> > > want you running Solaris.
> >
> > I'll have to check the site again...we don't run any SunOS machines, so I
> > didn't pay too much attention. But I was under the impression that any
> Y2K
> > problem with the Sun3's was about the NVRAM,
> 
> No, while they do have a problem with the NVRAM/clock chip, that's far from
> the only issue with SunOS.
> 
> > and that there are patches
> > available for some of the 4/xxx series and the Sparcs that are still
> > running the most current SunOS.
> 
> Which is not usable on a Sun3.  "Current SunOS" is Solaris 2.6.

Indeed. SunOS 4.1.x is what I was referring to. I generally assume that
someone who mentions "SunOS" is referring to versions previous to 5.0 and
"Solaris" refers to versions 5.0 and later, although I realise that
Solaris is officially SunOS. 



From cmcmanis at freegate.com  Tue Dec 22 02:21:39 1998
From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: TV Typewriter Cookbook
In-Reply-To: <199812220151.UAA07616@smtp.interlog.com>
References: <4.1.19981220180427.00956d80@mcmanis.com>
 <199812210115.UAA01569@smtp.interlog.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981222001355.00ad8410@mcmanis.com>

At 08:46 PM 12/21/98 +0000, Lawrence Walker wrote:
> Concerning his questions you have to keep in mind this was written in 1975.
> As he says it may seem quaint or primitive at a later time , but these were 
> accute and problematic questions then.

Au contraire! I read the original articles with huge interest. The amazing
thing is to go back to those days and remember the questions! I had
forgotten some of them, and true they seem quaint by today's hardware glut
standards but they are also prophetic in a weird sort of way. Consider the
questions:

Will we ever get a 16 million color flat panel display with 8.5 Mpixels for
< 500 ? (This is what is required for an electronic magazine replacement
(8.5 x 11" at 300 dpi full color) (6.75 Mpixels if there is a 1" margin)

Will we ever get continuous speech recognition in a handheld device ?
Without a noise cancelling microphone? Speaker independent?

These, to me at least, have the same flavor of "maybe in the far future"
that I had when I first read Don Lancaster's articles. But the "far future"
in his case was 15 years. At the current rate of technological advance we
could see these questions answered in half that time! 

--Chuck


From mtapley at swri.edu  Mon Dec 21 20:07:33 1998
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Saw one...what is that?  TI printing terminal Silent 700.
In-Reply-To: <199812150802.AAA26252@lists5.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: 

All,
>> Jason asked:
>> This, Ti terminal Silent 700 looks like a headless thick notebook
>
>Tony replied:
>AFAIK it's a dumb printing terminal. ...
>There was (I believe) also an ASR version of one
>of the desktop models that had a box on top with 2 digital cassette
>drives in it. You could copy from one tape to the other, insert
>characters from the keyboard, copy the tape to the line or to the
>printer, etc. Basically use the cassettes like the paper tape on most ASR
>machines.

>Then Sergei asked:
>Do you have manuals for this version?  Can it write data to tape as they
>arrive?  (If so, I could use this terminal as a log device.)

At University of Texas Center for Space Research in the late 70's, there
was one continually logging data to tape off a nasa communications line as
the data arrived. One of my jobs there was to switch the logging to the
other tape drive and dump the full tape to the PDP for data-processing. The
tape drives were pretty reliable and pretty easy to use. Sorry for the late
reply, I'm getting a bit snowed and behind on the *really* important things
in life, like reading my classic-comp digests. Also, they did not let me
keep the manual, and I do not remember how to operate the machine. :-)
						- Mark




From mpasser at CSTP.UMKC.EDU  Tue Dec 22 05:35:29 1998
From: mpasser at CSTP.UMKC.EDU (MICHAEL PASSER)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Bernoulli Box
Message-ID: <009D10FD.BAC85741.16@CSTP.UMKC.EDU>

I have a the drivers diskette for the 10Mb devices.  
I believe the controller card is a PC2B or something along
those lines.  It could be had with or without a boot ROM.

Please drop me a line at mwp@acm.org with if you
haven't found a copy, and I'll arrange to get them
to you some way (electronically or snail mail).

-- Mike Passer 


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Tue Dec 22 10:27:03 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Info Needed: Motorola EXORcisor 6800 System
In-Reply-To: <199812220417.UAA05566@fraser.sfu.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981222102703.4e6f24aa@intellistar.net>

Kevin,

  You can contact Bill at "Bill Yakowenko " but he's
out of the country till after the new year.  He doesn't have a EXORcisor
only the books that I will be sending him.  FWIW the books came from the
Motorola plant in Melbourne, Florida. No idea what happened to the machine.

  Joe


At 08:17 PM 12/21/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Hi Again:
>
>Anybody else have one of these? I understand that Bill Yakowenko (sp?)
>does, but don't have his email.
>
>Any and all info appreciated. There's nothing on ther web that I can find.
>It dates from 1975.
>
>Kevin
>
>-- 
>Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD
>mcquiggi@sfu.ca
>



From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Tue Dec 22 08:32:47 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Another ~1960 computer kit
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981221224658.6b3779d8@ricochet.net>

At 12:30 PM 12/20/98 -0500, you wrote:
>making a small radio receiver powered off an AC line. And the book says,
>"for all ages". We don't have these things anymore, it's hard to learn.

When I was a kid, (<7 y.o.) I wanted my drill to be just like my dad's.  So
I tied a piece of string around the handle, tied a paper clip to the other
end, and plugged it in.  Luckily, we had flame retardent carpeting and a
good family doctor.

Recently, my idiot sister's idiot dog bit a woman who worked for a
neighbor.  In talking with her, she told me that "this is the sort of thing
you hope for."  I believe she got about $20K out of my insurance company
before they cancelled my insurance.  

So, with those two examples, can anyone guess why companies are reluctant
to produce things like we would like them to?


--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                       http://www.sinasohn.com/



From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Tue Dec 22 09:15:51 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: SuperPET vs 8096
Message-ID: <199812221515.HAA14226@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Dec 22 10:17:27 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: New updates to Secret Weapons of Commodore
In-Reply-To: <199812212206.OAA11342@oa.ptloma.edu>
Message-ID: <199812221518.PAA02380@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> New entries:
> 	* PET 200 (with pictures, thanks Per Olofsoon, Marko Makela)

The 200 is a rebaged 8032SK

> 	* P500 and B500 now separate entries (thanks Larry Anderson,
> 		Hans Franke, with pictures)

Somm corrections/additional informations:
The B500 has _NO_ joystick port on the back, althrough the port
hardware is on board. There is also _NO_ detatchable keyboard.

Also the B500 was never released (not official nor inofficial).
My guess ist that my unit is a prototype unit released only for
matrketing purpose and/or development, like the P500s found in
the US. ALthorough the board is basicly the board of an B128/256,
the datecodes are just older than any known (to me) B128 and my
ROMs are a manual made pigy pack version of ROM/EPROM combinations.



From JWRobertson at SkyBest.Com  Tue Dec 22 09:18:23 1998
From: JWRobertson at SkyBest.Com (Jerry Robertson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Free Kaypros
Message-ID: <367FB83F.5B86@skybest.com>

I have two Kaypro machines, (a II and a IIX) both with daisy wheel
printers (a converted SCM teletypewriter and a Juki marketed under the
Kaypro name).  I have all of the original software, documentation,
cables, etc. as well as some supplies (extra ribbons, printwheels,
floppies, etc.).  When last used, about ten years ago, everything worked
fine.  I would like to donate these items to anyone who will pick them
up.  I would be unable to pack and ship them.  I am located in Sparta,
NC, which is located in the Northwest North Carolina mountains close to
where NC, VA, and TN meet.  If you have any interest and are able to
pick them up or have someone do it for you, please E-mail me at
jwrobertson@skybest.com.


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Dec 22 10:55:23 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: SuperPET vs 8096
In-Reply-To: <199812221515.HAA14226@oa.ptloma.edu>
Message-ID: <199812221556.PAA05783@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> >You write that the SuperPET without 6809 were called 8096 - which
> >is IMHO completely wrong. The 64k memory expansion of the SuperPET and
> >the 8096 are completely incompatible.

> >- SuperPET: RAM mapped into $9***, with an I/O register providing
> >  the upper 4 address bits

> >- 8096: This is actually an add-on board to the 8032 that provides
> >  64k expansion port in the upper half of the address space - you
> >  could remap all the ROM and I/O with two 32k banks of RAM.
> >  Bank selection was separate for $8000-$bfff and $c000-$ffff.
> >  You could even write-protect the RAM.

Andre is completly right here about the technical difference.
To quote my mail regarding this thing:
> Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:25:54 +1 Re: "Single instance" machines
> To get this straight, we are talking about the 8096, a modified
> 8032 with the big metal case and a 'Universal PET' board, and
> a daughterboard pluged into to give 64 K of additional mem.

> Now the 6809 PET (SP, MMF, etc.) has also a daughterboard, placed
> in the same position, that replaces the 6502 CPU with a cable to
> the add-on board. On the board ist the original 6502, the 6809, a
> 6551, 64k RAM and some ROM. The RAM is maped, instead of to $9xxx
> (if my memory is correct) in 4K steps (and the ROM on the daughter-
> board did replace the Kernal ROM, when the 6809 was active - if my
> memory is correct).

> >So I doubt that the SuperPET were similar to the 8096.
> >Especially as the 8x96 RAM expansion would make it difficult for
> >the 6809 to access the additional RAM.
> >But then, you never know CBMs numbering scheme :-)

Jep, Commo Numbering is a synonym for more like Random Numbering :)
Just like my MMF/8096 Bastard - 8096 case, 8096 labled on the front,
but 6809 daugtherboard and MMF label on the back - and named MMF in
the shipment papers.

Sometimes I think they have known from the very first begining
that Commodore might be collectable and tryed their best to
confuse us (or the russians ?).

> So PET freaks: which is right? I always thought the non-6809 CBM 9000 *was*
> the 8096, but he does have a lot of info about the SuperPET on his pages

Both are based on the 8032 board, but with different daughter boards.
Both daughter boards added 64K, but thru different techniques.

But as always you never can be shure what Commodore realy did build.

Gruss
Hans


--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From jfoust at threedee.com  Tue Dec 22 10:01:54 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: TV Typewriter Cookbook
In-Reply-To: <199812220151.UAA07616@smtp.interlog.com>
References: <4.1.19981220180427.00956d80@mcmanis.com>
 <199812210115.UAA01569@smtp.interlog.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981222100154.00f822b0@pc>

At 08:46 PM 12/21/98 +0000, Lawrence Walker wrote:
>On 20 Dec 98 at 18:25, Chuck McManis wrote:
>
>> 
>> >My main find tho was a "TV Typewriter Cookbook" from Sams by Don
Lancaster, 
>> >the 
>> >author of the TTL cookbook among others.
>>          
> Im going to have to keep my eyes open for any of his books. Quite
fascinating 
>stuff from an historical perspective.

Lancaster is still around at .  Lots of
junk for sale, lots of curmudgeonly rants.

- John



From jfoust at threedee.com  Tue Dec 22 10:01:30 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
In-Reply-To: <199812220251.VAA26511@armigeron.com>
References: <9812220242.ZM24740@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981222100130.00f87d40@pc>

At 09:51 PM 12/21/98 -0500, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote:
>
>  Um, IRIX is a Unix derivative, right?  What about IRIX ISN'T Y2K
>compliant?  2038 compliant, I can see, but 2000?  Do these companies go out
>fo their way to make stuff non-Y2k compilant?
>  -spc (Can't comprehend what would break on a Unix system come 2000 ... )

Sure, raw time() values aren't sensitive to Y2K, but it's always
possible for an app to emit and process the date as two chars.
I've seen code that indexes into the string from ctime(time()) and
yanks the year chars from there.  And I think %Y is a valid printf()
formatter now, but I've never seen it in use.

Just to keep it on-thread, I peeked at the picture of the PS-300
on the previously mention web page, and can confirm I only saw the
monitor and digitizing pad, but no main unit.  I had second thoughts
about the Sequent S27, though - if it had a dozen or so 386 boards
in it, what sort of RAM might be inside?

- John



From spc at armigeron.com  Tue Dec 22 10:22:54 1998
From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981222100130.00f87d40@pc> from "John Foust" at Dec 22, 98 10:01:30 am
Message-ID: <199812221622.LAA01938@armigeron.com>

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From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Tue Dec 22 10:39:16 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
In-Reply-To: <199812221622.LAA01938@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Dec 22, 98 11:22:54 am
Message-ID: <199812221639.IAA12646@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From jpl15 at netcom.com  Tue Dec 22 10:42:47 1998
From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Southern California TRW Swap
Message-ID: 



  To any of us who will be in or near the SoCal area this 
Northern-Hemisphere Solstice proximate weekend:

     Greetings.

  The TRW Amateur Radio Swapfest will be held on 26th December at 
the TRW facilities in  El Segundo, Cal from 7:30 am til 11:30 am..


  405 (San Diego) freeway to Rosecrans exit, Rosecrans west to 
Aviation, Aviation south (turn under the railway bridge) one block 
and it will be on your right. The closest intersection is Aviation 
and Marine.

  E-mail me if more info is needed.

  If any interest, those who Show Up will be invited to an 
after-swap luncheon whereat we can gloat/whine over the day's 'catch'.

  Marvin and I will be in spaces J-21 and -23.

  Cheers

John

PS: WX is clear, crisp and beautiful; not like last time...

  





From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Dec 22 12:00:50 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: OT: Online auctins an institution?
In-Reply-To: <19981221192832.15563.qmail@brouhaha.com>
References: <199812211339.NAA02895@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>	(Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de)
Message-ID: <199812221701.RAA11643@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

Eric Smith 
> I wrote:
> > As soon as you start trying to do anything with the results (like sell them),
> > eBay (or whoever) will be quick to point out that they own the data, and you
> > aren't allowed to use it for commercial purposes without a license.

> Hans replied:
> > They don't own the data. Data is still not owned by anybody. As
> > soon as a specific fact is published, it is free to be used. What
> > they own is the copyright to _their_ reprensentation of this data
> > on in _their_ publications. So everybody is free to read the final
> > prices of eBay items and compile a list (or book). You don't need
> > any 'licence' to use them, as long as the compilaton is your work
> > and not taken without further rework other than beautifying.

> Maybe in Germany.  In the US, Congress just keeps making copyright law worse
> and worse, with the supposed justification of bringing us into 'compliance'
> with the rest of the world.  The actual purpose is to make it easier for
> large businesses to turn a quick buck, and small businesses and consumers
> be damned.

Just tell me you are joking - next time someone copyrights the
number 5 and you have to pay to use it ? C'mon, they CAN'T
copyright data - only representations ... It can't go that
way.

> There most certainly are companies that claim ownership of raw data, and there
> in not yet enough established case law in this area.  Some of the courts have
> ruled in favor of plaintifs in these cases.

Hmm, you sound realy serious. It's ridicoulus ... next time
time some University claims the fact that the earth is measured
25.000 Miles around and wants royalities from everyone using this
fact ? Maybe thats a way to convert the US to the metric system ...
just copyright all mesurements in Miles and Inches ad so on ...

:)))

Gruss
H.


--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Tue Dec 22 10:54:47 1998
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: SunOS -- was: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
In-Reply-To: Aaron Christopher Finney 
        "Re: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up" (Dec 21, 23:04)
References: 
Message-ID: <9812221654.ZM29804@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Dec 21, 23:04, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote:

> Indeed. SunOS 4.1.x is what I was referring to. I generally assume that
> someone who mentions "SunOS" is referring to versions previous to 5.0 and
> "Solaris" refers to versions 5.0 and later, although I realise that
> Solaris is officially SunOS.

I wasn't sure what was meant, but what you describe is what I usually
assume as well (though SunOS != Solaris, according to Sun -- they seem to
have changed their marketing position recently, to say nothing of the
numbering scheme).

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York


From allisonp at world.std.com  Tue Dec 22 11:13:51 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
In-Reply-To: <199812221639.IAA12646@oa.ptloma.edu>
Message-ID: 



On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

> ::  -spc (It's 1998 and systems are STILL not Y2K compliant?)
> 
> Get a computer without an internal date and it's guaranteed Y2K compliant. 
> Why do you think I use my 128DCR? ;-)

Not so fast...  That guarentees the system is hardware compliant.
Applications can still do very stupid things based on dates typed in.

Allison




From dhansen at zebra.net  Tue Dec 22 11:20:11 1998
From: dhansen at zebra.net (dhansen@zebra.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: SunOS -- was: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
Message-ID: <199812221720.LAA08518@ns.zebra.net>

SunOS and Solaris were seperate creatures up until about Solaris 2.4 and 
SunOS 5.4 when they began merging the two into one entity.
As for the numbering scheme that is definitely weird. It's advertised as
Solaris 7, yet in the code it comes up as 2.7. Guess their marketing dept. 
had an afterthought about it.

david

On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) wrote:
>On Dec 21, 23:04, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote:
>
>> Indeed. SunOS 4.1.x is what I was referring to. I generally assume that
>> someone who mentions "SunOS" is referring to versions previous to 5.0 and
>> "Solaris" refers to versions 5.0 and later, although I realise that
>> Solaris is officially SunOS.
>
>I wasn't sure what was meant, but what you describe is what I usually
>assume as well (though SunOS != Solaris, according to Sun -- they seem to
>have changed their marketing position recently, to say nothing of the
>numbering scheme).
>
>-- 
>
>Pete						Peter Turnbull
>						Dept. of Computer Science
>						University of York


From KFergason at aol.com  Tue Dec 22 11:53:54 1998
From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: SunOS -- was: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 12/22/98 9:33:55 AM Pacific Standard Time,
dhansen@zebra.net writes:

> SunOS and Solaris were seperate creatures up until about Solaris 2.4 and 
>  SunOS 5.4 when they began merging the two into one entity.
>  As for the numbering scheme that is definitely weird. It's advertised as
>  Solaris 7, yet in the code it comes up as 2.7. Guess their marketing dept. 
>  had an afterthought about it.
>  

I don't know where you are getting this.  Solaris is an "environment".  Always
has
been.  It includes SunOS, Openwindows, and tools.  Real developement ended on
SunOS 4 about 7 years ago, 4.1.4 being the last released version about 3-4
years
ago.  Also called Solaris 1.1.2.  Yes, the Solaris moniker was retrofitted to
the 
SunOS 4 stuff.

SunOS 5, also called Solaris 2, is running rampant as we speak.  the Solaris
7 thing, well, we figured that was just to get a bigger number than NT 5.
course,
now its windows 2000.  Solaris 7, aka 5.7, aka 2.7, still returns 5.7 in the
uname
commands to ensure compatibility with scripts, etc.

This is even on topic, sort of.  The Sun announcement of what would become
Solaris was in 1987.

Kelly


From jfoust at threedee.com  Tue Dec 22 12:47:06 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: OT: Online auctins an institution?
In-Reply-To: <199812221701.RAA11643@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
References: <19981221192832.15563.qmail@brouhaha.com>
 <199812211339.NAA02895@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981222124706.00f09d10@pc>

At 06:01 PM 12/22/98 +1, Hans Franke wrote:
>Eric Smith 
>
>> Maybe in Germany.  In the US, Congress just keeps making copyright law
worse
>> and worse, with the supposed justification of bringing us into 'compliance'
>> with the rest of the world.  The actual purpose is to make it easier for
>> large businesses to turn a quick buck, and small businesses and consumers
>> be damned.
>
>Just tell me you are joking - next time someone copyrights the
>number 5 and you have to pay to use it ? C'mon, they CAN'T
>copyright data - only representations ... It can't go that way.

In this case, Ebay *created* the data.  The information is theirs. 
They can control how it is revealed and sold or given away.  For all
we know, they *are* already compiling sales figures and will be
charging for it in the future, as Chuck so wisely pointed out.

Collection and compilation copyright is well-known and well-tested.
I haven't looked, but I'll bet a doughnut that Ebay's fine print
claims ownership of every bit of info on the site.

The "actual purpose" is to allow *anyone*, large or small, to protect
their intellectual property.  If someone on this list made a web site
of the non-Ebay, CCCCS (classic computer collector Common Sense) price of
old computers, the same principle protects your "data" from being
ripped-off by someone who wasn't willing to do the footwork.

- John



From eric at brouhaha.com  Tue Dec 22 13:33:23 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: [OT] copyrighting data (was Re: OT: Online auctins an institution?)
In-Reply-To: <199812221701.RAA11643@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
	(Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de)
References: <199812211339.NAA02895@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>	(Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) <199812221701.RAA11643@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <19981222193323.4802.qmail@brouhaha.com>

I wrote about the trend in the US to broaden coverage of copyrights, including
applying it to raw data.

Hans replies:

> Just tell me you are joking - next time someone copyrights the
> number 5 and you have to pay to use it ? C'mon, they CAN'T
> copyright data - only representations ... It can't go that
> way.

I'm sure that no court would rule that a single number such as "5" can
be copyrighted.  The idea is that a >collection< of data can be copyrighted,
in the abstract.  This is bad, but it seems to be happening more and more.

They *almost* passed a law recently that would have allowed companies that
publish databases collected by the US Government (paid for by our tax dollars)
to own the copyright not just to their publication of the data, but to the
data itself, so that no one else could publish the same data.  :-(  Fortunately
this provision was removed at the last minute.  The companies that would have
benefitted have said that they will keep trying to get it enacted.

One of the scariest things about the way the US Congress works is that
the conference committees that resolve the differences between the
House of Representatives and the Senate versions of a bill often reinsert
things that were struck out and not in the final version of either bill.
Then they send the conference version back to the House and Senate, where
it is approved by a voice vote by Congressmen who haven't even looked at
the new version.  In the most recent session of Congress this was used to
enact a new law permitting roving wiretaps, even though the idea didn't
get any support when it was debated in the House.  :-(

Anyhow, we've gotten way the heck off topic now, so I'd suggest we drop
it.

Eric



From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Tue Dec 22 13:38:13 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: OT - power supplies
Message-ID: <199812221938.MAA14410@calico.litterbox.com>

Thanks to all who replied.  I was concerned that if the PSs are really pulling
7 amps each I was going to run out of power really quickly in my computer
room, which is fed by a single 20 amp circuit.  However, since they're not,
my  3 soon to be 4 computers, tv, and laser printer will (hopefully) all
peacefully coexist.   Again, thanks. :)
-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Tue Dec 22 14:33:53 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: sun hard drive info needed
Message-ID: <6dad9c34.36800231@aol.com>

someone wants to trade some sun scsi drives for a cd rom i have. he said they
are sun 424 and 535 drives. where i can i get info on these drives? i have no
idea what capacity or form factor, much less if they will work in a pc. 

david


From martinm at allwest.net  Tue Dec 22 14:55:27 1998
From: martinm at allwest.net (Martin Marshall)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: sun hard drive info needed
References: <6dad9c34.36800231@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3680073F.2C6@allwest.net>

I think that the Sun 424 is a Seagate ST1480N.  I'm not sure about the
Sun 524 drive.

SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote:
> 
> someone wants to trade some sun scsi drives for a cd rom i have. he said they
> are sun 424 and 535 drives. where i can i get info on these drives? i have no
> idea what capacity or form factor, much less if they will work in a pc.
> 
> david


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 22 12:48:39 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:27 2005
Subject: HP9100 EHT oscillator transistor
In-Reply-To: <020501be2d6d$981746a0$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> from "Geoff Roberts" at Dec 22, 98 04:10:30 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 22 12:53:02 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: HP9100 EHT oscillator transistor
In-Reply-To: <19981222060318.1538.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Dec 22, 98 06:03:18 am
Message-ID: 

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From jruschme at exit109.com  Tue Dec 22 15:23:12 1998
From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: sun hard drive info needed
In-Reply-To: <3680073F.2C6@allwest.net> from Martin Marshall at "Dec 22, 98 01:55:27 pm"
Message-ID: <199812222123.QAA00499@crobin.home.org>

Either way, both should work fine on a PC. You may need, however, to move
the jumper which causes the drive to wait for the startup command.

FYI, though, I can't speak for the 524, but the 424's have a tendancy to
get real loud as they get older. Something to think about...

<>>

> I think that the Sun 424 is a Seagate ST1480N.  I'm not sure about the
> Sun 524 drive.
> 
> SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > someone wants to trade some sun scsi drives for a cd rom i have. he said they
> > are sun 424 and 535 drives. where i can i get info on these drives? i have no
> > idea what capacity or form factor, much less if they will work in a pc.
> > 
> > david
> 
> 



From tim at thereviewguide.com  Tue Dec 22 15:32:19 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (tim@thereviewguide.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: Back on the List
Message-ID: <199812222132.NAA27147@geocities.com>

Hi.  For those who remember, and for those who care, I'm back.  
After coming back from my vacation to my new home in Guyana... 
(yes, I swore off Kool Aid) and found that it had numerous 
problems.  After sorting most of them out, getting back on-track, 
and then spending lots of time thinking about but not doing, I got 
back on the list.

Ciao,

Tim D. Hotze


From roblwill at usaor.net  Tue Dec 22 18:50:28 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <01be2e0e$3bef2220$f08ea6d1@the-general>

Hello everyone...
I have a question:
I have a Tandy 3800HD laptop that I' trying to upgrade for a friend, with a
486-20 processor, 120 MB HD, 14.4 modem, VGA, and 4 MB RAM.  It's a great
little computer, but it really can't do much with 4 MB RAM.  It has 2 MB on
board, and 2 MB in (2) 1 MB 30-pin SIMMS.  I have (2) 4 MB 30-pin SIMMS that
I tried putting in to put it up to 10 MB.  However, when I turn it on,
absolutely nothing happens (the screen occasionally lights up).  Do I need a
some sort of BIOS upgrade, or am I basically stuck with the 4 MB?  It
currently has Win 3.0 on it, because even with 3.1, it doesn't have enough
RAM to do anything.

Happy Holidaze
-and-
ThAnX,

--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Dec 22 16:11:11 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <01be2e0e$3bef2220$f08ea6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Dec 22, 98 04:50:28 pm
Message-ID: <199812222211.OAA07987@shell2.aracnet.com>

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From tim at thereviewguide.com  Tue Dec 22 16:12:06 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (tim@thereviewguide.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <01be2e0e$3bef2220$f08ea6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: <199812222212.OAA28152@geocities.com>

> currently has Win 3.0 on it, because even with 3.1, it doesn't have enough
> RAM to do anything.

You'd be surprised what you can do with 4MB RAM.  Actually, lots 
of 486's shipped with 4MB and Windows 3.1.  You just need to be 
conservative, and use swap.  Actually, I've heard that you can get 
by with 2MB... but I wouldn't believe it even if I saw it. 

Tim D. Hotze




From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Tue Dec 22 16:29:39 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <199812222212.OAA28152@geocities.com> from "tim@thereviewguide.com" at Dec 22, 98 06:12:06 pm
Message-ID: <199812222229.OAA10016@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From wirehead at retrocomputing.com  Tue Dec 22 18:20:41 1998
From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: VAX/VMS Assistance Requested
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Ok, here's the scoop.  I actually have a MicroVax II on the net kinda
sorta via a terminal server.  But my problem is that I've got no way to
get binaries on and off the machine.  I have no file transfer capabilities
on it as far as I can tell.  Usually such machines will have kermit when
you get them as freebies but this one was used in a custom application etc.

My understanding is that you can take any file, binary, text, etc and put 
it in a share archive (IE .shar) extension, transfer it to the machine in
text mode (basically cut and paste in a terminal window or using an ASCII 
transfer) and simply execute it using a @.

I'm not sure if what I'm asking makes sense, but could someone on the list
'.shar' up the binary distribution for kermit and email it to me?  Then I 
could ascii transfer it onto the vax, execute it, have kermit and 
transfer binaries onto it, thus solving my problem.

Alternatively, everyplace I look kermit seems to be in a zip.  This is 
fine but I can't get zip onto the vax nor the zip archive itself.
I also have no compilers so I can't put source on there and compile 
except for Macro-32.  Does the kermit binary(ies) exist someplace via ftp
in a .shar archive?

Maybe I'm being completely ignorant here.  Because I can reliably telnet 
to the machine I'd like to clean it up, make a backup image on tape, 
install some common utilities and make it available to folks on the list 
via telnet.  Is there some easier way to get binaries onto the machine?
Without having them on tape already, etc.

Thanks...

Anthony Clifton, kc0cue



From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Tue Dec 22 18:42:57 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: VAX/VMS Assistance Requested
In-Reply-To:  from "Wirehead Prime" at Dec 22, 1998 06:20:41 PM
Message-ID: <199812230042.RAA15659@calico.litterbox.com>

Hmmm.  If you can telnet into the machine have you tried ftping?

Otherwise the only solution will be to ask some kind soul with tk50s
to put kermit on a tk50 for you and mail it to you, I guess.  

If you have any programming languages at all on the machine you could try
writing a uudecode utility and then uuencoding the kermit binary on another
machine, and doing the cut and paste you were talking about.  You could 
probably write a uudecode in DCL, but it would be slow, ugly, and nasty.

> 
> 
> Ok, here's the scoop.  I actually have a MicroVax II on the net kinda
> sorta via a terminal server.  But my problem is that I've got no way to
> get binaries on and off the machine.  I have no file transfer capabilities
> on it as far as I can tell.  Usually such machines will have kermit when
> you get them as freebies but this one was used in a custom application etc.

How exactly is it conencted?  Via serial port to the terminal server?  If this
is the case, FTP is pretty much out of the question.  You're back to the tk50
 
> My understanding is that you can take any file, binary, text, etc and put 
> it in a share archive (IE .shar) extension, transfer it to the machine in
> text mode (basically cut and paste in a terminal window or using an ASCII 
> transfer) and simply execute it using a @.

never heard of this being done or working.  Since terminals tend to like to 
monkey with 8th bit stuff I'd not expect it to work, personally.

> Alternatively, everyplace I look kermit seems to be in a zip.  This is 
> fine but I can't get zip onto the vax nor the zip archive itself.
> I also have no compilers so I can't put source on there and compile 
> except for Macro-32.  Does the kermit binary(ies) exist someplace via ftp
> in a .shar archive?



> 
> Maybe I'm being completely ignorant here.  Because I can reliably telnet 
> to the machine I'd like to clean it up, make a backup image on tape, 
> install some common utilities and make it available to folks on the list 
> via telnet.  Is there some easier way to get binaries onto the machine?
> Without having them on tape already, etc.
> 
> Thanks...
> 
> Anthony Clifton, kc0cue
> 

Not sure I've helped any.  I imagine Tim and Allison will have more helpful
replies.  :)

-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From KFergason at aol.com  Tue Dec 22 18:45:16 1998
From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: sun hard drive info needed
Message-ID: 


SUN0535 labeled drives were typically a Seagate 3610.  There was at
least one other model used, but it was also in the 600Mb range.

Kelly

In a message dated 12/22/98 1:26:53 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jruschme@exit109.com writes:

> Either way, both should work fine on a PC. You may need, however, to move
>  the jumper which causes the drive to wait for the startup command.
>  
>  FYI, though, I can't speak for the 524, but the 424's have a tendancy to
>  get real loud as they get older. Something to think about...
>  
>  <>>
>  
>  > I think that the Sun 424 is a Seagate ST1480N.  I'm not sure about the
>  > Sun 524 drive.
>  > 
>  > SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote:
>  > > 
>  > > someone wants to trade some sun scsi drives for a cd rom i have. he
said 
> they
>  > > are sun 424 and 535 drives. where i can i get info on these drives? i 
> have no
>  > > idea what capacity or form factor, much less if they will work in a pc.


From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au  Tue Dec 22 18:43:18 1998
From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: OT: Online auctins an institution?
Message-ID: <01be2e0d$3c3aeda0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>

-----Original Message-----
From: Hans Franke 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Wednesday, 23 December 1998 4:34
Subject: Re: OT: Online auctins an institution?


>Eric Smith 
>Just tell me you are joking - next time someone copyrights the
>number 5 and you have to pay to use it ? C'mon, they CAN'T
>copyright data - only representations ... It can't go that
>way.


I seem to recall that this is the reason the Pentium(c) is called that and
not
a 586.  Intel tried to copyright it, (to stop clone chip makers calling
their cpu's
"586's", and were told by the courts (?) that a numerical sequence couldn't
be
copyrighted.

>> There most certainly are companies that claim ownership of raw data, and
there
>> in not yet enough established case law in this area.  Some of the courts
have
>> ruled in favor of plaintifs in these cases.

Shakespeare had the right idea.  "First, lets kill all the lawyers"
The USA is not the entire world either.   A company established in
say,  Latvia or Kazahkstan selling such information might as well
be on the dark side of the moon as far as US courts/laws are concerned.

>Hmm, you sound realy serious. It's ridicoulus ... next time
>time some University claims the fact that the earth is measured
>25.000 Miles around and wants royalities from everyone using this
>fact ? Maybe thats a way to convert the US to the metric system ...
>just copyright all mesurements in Miles and Inches ad so on ...

Now there's a thought......:^)

Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie
South Australia.
netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au



From yowza at yowza.com  Tue Dec 22 19:06:33 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: VAX/VMS Assistance Requested
In-Reply-To: <199812230042.RAA15659@calico.litterbox.com>
Message-ID: 

> If you have any programming languages at all on the machine you could try
> writing a uudecode utility and then uuencoding the kermit binary on another
> machine, and doing the cut and paste you were talking about.  You could 
> probably write a uudecode in DCL, but it would be slow, ugly, and nasty.

This used to be a common problem, and "shar" (shell archive) was the
common answer. On Unix, it was a simple shell script that you could wrap
source code in.  Under VMS, there was a DCL equivalent.

I just looked around for a VMS version of shar, and couldn't find one :-(

I also remember that KERMIT commonly came with a simple boot-strap
program, but I didn't find one of those for VMS either....

If you have a C compiler on the VMS box, I would just try getting the
kermit sources file-by-file onto your system via:
	COPY SYS$INPUT file1.c
or whatever the DCL syntax is.

-- Doug



From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au  Tue Dec 22 19:18:52 1998
From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: VAX/VMS Assistance Requested
Message-ID: <01be2e12$33e09d80$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>

-----Original Message-----
From: Wirehead Prime 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Wednesday, 23 December 1998 11:56
Subject: VAX/VMS Assistance Requested


>Ok, here's the scoop.  I actually have a MicroVax II on the net kinda
>sorta via a terminal server.

Uh, ok.

>But my problem is that I've got no way to
>get binaries on and off the machine.
>have no file transfer capabilities
>on it as far as I can tell

Does it have a tape or floppy drive?

>My understanding is that you can take any file, binary, text, etc and put
>it in a share archive (IE .shar) extension, transfer it to the machine in
>text mode (basically cut and paste in a terminal window or using an ASCII
>transfer) and simply execute it using a @.
>
>Does the kermit binary(ies) exist someplace via ftp
>in a .shar archive?

Not AFAIK.

>
>Maybe I'm being completely ignorant here.  Because I can reliably telnet

Is the telnet function being supplied by the terminal server and not by an
IP stack on the machine itself?  Does it have a network card?
Are there any other Vaxen there?  An asynchronous Decnet connection is
a possibility even if it doesn't have a network card.  I'm assuming it's
running VMS?  Or NetBSD?

>to the machine I'd like to clean it up, make a backup image on tape,

This implies it has a TK50 or similar.  Someone on the list who is closer
to you, that has Vaxen with TK tapes,  might be able to send you Zmodem
or Kermit binaries on TK50 if that's the case.
That would likely be the easiest way.

Hope this helps.

Geoff Roberts
VK5KDR
Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie
South Australia.
netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au



From yowza at yowza.com  Tue Dec 22 19:15:52 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: OT: Online auctins an institution?
In-Reply-To: <01be2e0d$3c3aeda0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote:

> I seem to recall that this is the reason the Pentium(c) is called that
> and not a 586.  Intel tried to copyright it, (to stop clone chip makers
> calling their cpu's "586's", and were told by the courts (?) that a
> numerical sequence couldn't be copyrighted. 

You're thinking of trade marks, which protect brand names from dilution.
That's much more on the minds of ebay's lawyers these days as little
third-party ebay services and internet domains start popping up.

My favorite kind of bottom dweller will register misspellings of popular
domains.  Try www.ebya.com, for example.  Often, you'll end up at an adult
site like www.amazn.com....

-- Doug



From wirehead at retrocomputing.com  Tue Dec 22 19:30:07 1998
From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: VAX/VMS Assistance Requested
In-Reply-To: <01be2e12$33e09d80$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>
Message-ID: 



> >Ok, here's the scoop.  I actually have a MicroVax II on the net kinda
> >sorta via a terminal server.
> 
> Uh, ok.
> 
> Is the telnet function being supplied by the terminal server and not by an
> IP stack on the machine itself?  Does it have a network card?

A little explanation here.  I have a MicroVax II with 9 megs, an RD54,
16 serial ports, a TK50 and controller, a TSV05 and a streaming tape drive
that goes with it.  I do not have an RX50, although I've considered whether
I should pull one out of a DecMate III I have and put it in the MicroVax.

I have a dialup connection through my office, which goes into the back
of a Livingston PM-11, which is a 10 port serial terminal server.  The
Vax is connected to another port and I can set it up so that if I telnet
to a specific port on the terminal server, I go into the serial port on the
Vax instead.  That works if I twiddle a bit with set term/modem and set 
term/hangup a bit.

Just for sake of description, I'm using a Mac SE running System 7.0.1 as
a console to the Vax.  =-)

If anyone would like to see the VMS prompt, for no apparent reason, 
telnet to 208.141.153.33 port 6001.  Hit return and VMS will ask you to 
login.  Unless I happened to be logged in through the terminal server at 
the time.  =-)

I do not have a qbus ethernet board.  Someone on the list had them for
$50 but I'm wretchedly poor so I make due with serial connections to my 
freebie machines.

> Are there any other Vaxen there?  An asynchronous Decnet connection is
> a possibility even if it doesn't have a network card.  I'm assuming it's
> running VMS?  Or NetBSD?
>
It's running VMS5.3-1.  But that just gave me an idea.  Someone on the list
said they were doing Decnet with a Linux box.  I spend ALL my time every
day hacking on Linux boxes and have several at home.  Hmmm...I'll have to
dig back through the list postings!  =-)
 
At any rate, if anyone can send me kermit on a TK50 I'd be happy to cover 
costs or send the TK50 cart back when I'm done.

Anthony Clifton, kc0cue



From wirehead at retrocomputing.com  Tue Dec 22 19:42:54 1998
From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: VAX/VMS Assistance Requested
In-Reply-To: <01be2e12$33e09d80$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>
Message-ID: 


Ok, just to update on my Vax hacking.  I don't have NCP.EXE in
sys$system which leads me to suspect that I'll have a difficult
time running Decnet.  *sigh*

At any rate, I guess I'm still looking for someone to send me a
copy of kermit, zmodem, etc on TK50.  Etc etc etc...

I guess I have one advantage though...if someone, who is a vms
expert more than I am, wants to log into the system and look
around and give me the prognosis on getting it into a generally
usable condition, it's telnet accessible.  =-)

Anthony Clifton, kc0cue



From wirehead at retrocomputing.com  Tue Dec 22 19:50:31 1998
From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: VAX/VMS Assistance Requested
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



> Ok, just to update on my Vax hacking.  I don't have NCP.EXE in
> sys$system which leads me to suspect that I'll have a difficult
> time running Decnet.  *sigh*

Ah!!!!  Never mind!  I started digging through the old user
directories on the machine and found a copy of kermit.exe!
Yes!  The hacker spirit triumphs!

Now I can get to work on putting this machine together into some
semblance of decency so I can put it online for telnet access.

Anthony Clifton, kc0cue




From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au  Tue Dec 22 20:15:29 1998
From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: VAX/VMS Assistance Requested
Message-ID: <000e01be2e1a$1d521aa0$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>

-----Original Message-----
From: Wirehead Prime 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Wednesday, 23 December 1998 13:04
Subject: Re: VAX/VMS Assistance Requested



>Just for sake of description, I'm using a Mac SE running System 7.0.1 as
>a console to the Vax.  =-)


I won't hold it against you.  Whatever works. ;^)

>I do not have a qbus ethernet board.  Someone on the list had them for
>$50 but I'm wretchedly poor so I make due with serial connections to my
>freebie machines.


Familiar feeling....:^)  I also have a Microvax II sans ethernet.

>It's running VMS5.3-1.  But that just gave me an idea.  Someone on the list
>said they were doing Decnet with a Linux box.  I spend ALL my time every
>day hacking on Linux boxes and have several at home.  Hmmm...I'll have to
>dig back through the list postings!  =-)

Hmm, NetBSD supports Microvax II's pretty well these days.  If you are
more comfortable with that than VMS.   (Keep the VMS license PAK's though,
you will need them if you want to reinstall VMS at some future time.)


This is the URL to the DECnet for Linux page....
http://linux.dreamtime.org/decnet/

I don't know if it works over a serial port connection on a Vax though....

Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Systems Manager
Saint Marks College
Port Pirie  South Australia.
My ICQ# is 1970476
Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile)
      61-8-8633-0619 (Home)
      61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct)
      61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)



From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au  Tue Dec 22 20:21:44 1998
From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: VAX/VMS Assistance Requested
Message-ID: <001501be2e1a$fcb99240$c52c67cb@canopus.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>

-----Original Message-----
From: Wirehead Prime 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Wednesday, 23 December 1998 13:22
Subject: Re: VAX/VMS Assistance Requested


>Ah!!!!  Never mind!  I started digging through the old user
>directories on the machine and found a copy of kermit.exe!
>Yes!  The hacker spirit triumphs!


Ok, sounds like you're all set.  If I were you the first things I'd
stick on there would be Zip and Zmodem.  Kermit is painfully
slow and most installation file sets are zipped these days.
If you want to break free of the terminal server, CMUIP is a
freeware IP stack for VMS.

Good luck with it.

Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Systems Manager
Saint Marks College
Port Pirie  South Australia.
My ICQ# is 1970476
Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile)
      61-8-8633-0619 (Home)
      61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct)
      61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)




From Innfogra at aol.com  Tue Dec 22 20:37:02 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: OT: Online auctins an institution?
Message-ID: <9d8cd550.3680574e@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/22/98 4:49:52 PM Pacific Standard Time,
netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au writes:

> 
>  I seem to recall that this is the reason the Pentium(c) is called that and
>  not
>  a 586.  Intel tried to copyright it, (to stop clone chip makers calling
>  their cpu's
>  "586's", and were told by the courts (?) that a numerical sequence couldn't
>  be
>  copyrighted.
>  
Actually I believe that Intel lost their copyright on the X86s by allowing
others to use the numbering system. In the US you have to vigorously protect
your copyright to keep it. Intel was lax and allowed the sequence to become
common words and numbers.
Paxton


From wirehead at retrocomputing.com  Tue Dec 22 20:46:49 1998
From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: VAX/VMS Assistance Problem Solved
In-Reply-To: <199812230042.RAA15659@calico.litterbox.com>
Message-ID: 


As I said before, I spoke too soon.  I found a copy of kermit in
one of the user directories.  Should have known.

At any rate, it works great and I'm able to transfer files onto
and off of the machine.

(BTW, if that hadn't worked, I was preparing to write a little one-way 
file transfer program in Macro.  Oh well.)

My goal, of course, is to get the cmuip stuff and just put the machine
on the net via slip.  My terminal server can do that too.  At least
until I can afford a deqna etc.

BTW, the importance of this machine...aside from having a VMS box to play 
with...is that I have a nice streaming 9-track tape drive and controller 
that goes with it.  That should allow me to do file/media conversions and 
to explore all the nifty things on the 9-track tapes I seem to find 
occasionally at second-hand stores.  =-)

I'm gettin' happy.

Anthony Clifton, kc0cue



From allisonp at world.std.com  Tue Dec 22 21:10:21 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <199812230310.AA06371@world.std.com>


Message-ID: <4.1.19981223140937.009d1c40@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au>

At 05:57 PM 20-12-98 -0800, James Willing wrote:
>Amongst a stack of new acqusitions today a rather interesting looking unit
>branded "LOCI 2".  Based on the name/serial number plate on the rear, it is
>an electronic programmable calculator.  Apparently built by Wang Labs.

>Anyone familiar with this unit?  And does anyone have any docs on it?

Well I did some serious programming on one a few years ago (when it was new
- I'm guessing early '70s). From the little I recall (lots of red wine
between then and now :-) the main interesting fact about this (apart from
the nixie tube display) was that multiplication was done by means of
logarithms. So 2x2=3.99999999 rather than the 4 expected.

The card reader was neat too - rather like a bed of nails....

 Huw Davies                      | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au
 Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550  Fax: +61 3 9479 1999
 La Trobe University             | "If God had wanted soccer played in the
 Melbourne Australia 3083        | air, the sky would be painted green"


From gram at cnct.com  Tue Dec 22 21:25:21 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: VAX/VMS Assistance Problem Solved
References: 
Message-ID: <368062A1.AD20477D@cnct.com>

Wirehead Prime wrote:
> 
> As I said before, I spoke too soon.  I found a copy of kermit in
> one of the user directories.  Should have known.
> 
> At any rate, it works great and I'm able to transfer files onto
> and off of the machine.

At _any_ rate?  As I recall, I last needed to use kermit sometime in
1989 and the rate I used it at was 1200bps.  (Well, it's the fastest
speed that the modem in the 3B1 supported).  Damned if I can recall
what I was talking to.  I just know it wasn't a Unix machine and it
didn't do [xyz]modem.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Tue Dec 22 21:22:49 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: OT: Online auctins an institution?
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981222191218.734776c8@ricochet.net>

At 06:33 PM 12/21/98 +1, you wrote:
>to build a Z3 or Mark I). Also later on things like GUI
>have been developed in a non capitalist environment. Not

I know it sure *seems* like it, but really, Xerox was never out to lose
money on computers...  

And I won't bother mentioning Apple or Microsloth...

(Oh, okay I will -- I'll stipulate that Woz may have been in it for fun,
but Jobs was/is definitely in it for the money.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                       http://www.sinasohn.com/



From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au  Tue Dec 22 21:26:27 1998
From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: Evans & Sutherland Y2K scrapyard heads-up
In-Reply-To: <199812220251.VAA26511@armigeron.com>
References: <9812220242.ZM24740@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981223142311.00ad28a0@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au>

At 09:51 PM 21-12-98 -0500, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote:

>  -spc (Can't comprehend what would break on a Unix system come 2000 ... )

Typically it's not the core parts of the operating system but things like
the vendor provided shell scripts are usually not Y2K compliant.

 Huw Davies                      | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au
 Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550  Fax: +61 3 9479 1999
 La Trobe University             | "If God had wanted soccer played in the
 Melbourne Australia 3083        | air, the sky would be painted green"


From wirehead at retrocomputing.com  Tue Dec 22 21:28:11 1998
From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: VAX/VMS Assistance Problem Solved
In-Reply-To: <368062A1.AD20477D@cnct.com>
Message-ID: 



> > At any rate, it works great and I'm able to transfer files onto
> > and off of the machine.
> 
> At _any_ rate?  As I recall, I last needed to use kermit sometime in
> 1989 and the rate I used it at was 1200bps.  (Well, it's the fastest
> speed that the modem in the 3B1 supported).  Damned if I can recall
> what I was talking to.  I just know it wasn't a Unix machine and it
> didn't do [xyz]modem.

Oh geez.  You know...come to think of it...oh no...

The last time I used kermit was to transfer files from my Mac SE that
I bought in 1988 to the Vax 8650 at acad.drake.edu.  I'm transferring files
from a Mac SE to a MicroVaxII in this case.  That's creepy.

Anthony Clifton, kc0cue



From yowza at yowza.com  Tue Dec 22 21:52:30 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: Pentium(TM) (was Re: OT: Online auctins an institution?
In-Reply-To: <9d8cd550.3680574e@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 Innfogra@aol.com wrote:

> Actually I believe that Intel lost their copyright on the X86s by allowing
> others to use the numbering system. In the US you have to vigorously protect
> your copyright to keep it. Intel was lax and allowed the sequence to become
> common words and numbers.

Intel did have court battles involving copyright, especially wrt
copyrightability of microcode, but *trademark* is another issue.

Some people think that you can't trademark "common words and numbers", but
you can.  Think of Lotus 1-2-3 (R).  You can trademark just about
anything, including the smell of your product, as long as it uniquely
identifies your product. In fact, Harley-Davidson even tried to trademark
their exhaust note. 

I don't remember if Intel actually filed suit to protect "486", for
example, but they would have had to fight standard industry practice of
using similar part numbers to indicate similar functionality.  Something
like "pentium" is much easier to protect, but you could probably open a
Pentium Shoe Store and be on perfectly good legal ground.

(BTW, my Dad happens to own a company named Xeon, the same name chosen by
Intel for their high-end pentiums.  He also owned the domain name, but
they talked him into selling it :-)

(Also BTW, I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV.  Shame on you if you
ever believe a word I say.)

-- Doug




From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Tue Dec 22 22:23:09 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: what is this? motorola alphamate
Message-ID: <59e9b925.3680702d@aol.com>

picked this up the other day. its a small unit comprising a relatively full
size keyboard and a 3x40 line lcd display. machine also has connections for
rs232, telephone, and din plugs for modem and printer. machine can also run on
batteries or ac power. is this a TDD? might be worth something if it is. 

david


From donm at cts.com  Tue Dec 22 22:29:06 1998
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: TV Typewriter Cookbook
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981222100154.00f822b0@pc>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, John Foust wrote:

> At 08:46 PM 12/21/98 +0000, Lawrence Walker wrote:
> >On 20 Dec 98 at 18:25, Chuck McManis wrote:
> >
> >> 
> >> >My main find tho was a "TV Typewriter Cookbook" from Sams by Don
> Lancaster, 
> >> >the 
> >> >author of the TTL cookbook among others.
> >>          
> > Im going to have to keep my eyes open for any of his books. Quite
> fascinating 
> >stuff from an historical perspective.
> 
> Lancaster is still around at .  Lots of
> junk for sale, lots of curmudgeonly rants.
> 
> - John
 
Also, writes a monthly column in Nuts & Volts.

						 - don



From yowza at yowza.com  Tue Dec 22 22:38:06 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: what is this? motorola alphamate
In-Reply-To: <59e9b925.3680702d@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote:

> picked this up the other day. its a small unit comprising a relatively full
> size keyboard and a 3x40 line lcd display. machine also has connections for
> rs232, telephone, and din plugs for modem and printer. machine can also run on
> batteries or ac power. is this a TDD? might be worth something if it is. 

I tried to buy a lot of those once.  I thought they were portable
terminals, but they turn out to be "portable paging entry terminals" used
to send pages to pagers, I assume.

-- Doug



From zmerch at 30below.com  Tue Dec 22 22:55:23 1998
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: Actually On-Topic: Art Bell's Webcam...
In-Reply-To: <19981222051427.1288.qmail@brouhaha.com>
References: <009c01be2d57$d8ce0e60$bf281bce@p166>
 <009c01be2d57$d8ce0e60$bf281bce@p166>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981222235523.009461b0@mail.30below.com>

A good friend of mine gave Art Bell a picture from the movie "Somewhere in
Time", which Art is holding up in front of his webcam in his home as we
speak (type?? ;-)...  Art also mentioned my friend's name on the air!

Anywho, in the background is a very *classic* Commodore - methinks a 64
(weren't they darker than the VIC's???) sittint atop a commie monitor!

Just thought you'd like to know.

http://www.artbell.com/livecam.html

(and you may have to click on the "studiocam" link.)

Have fun, and happy holidaze!!!
"Merch"


From roblwill at usaor.net  Wed Dec 23 01:46:12 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <01be2e48$4fab4520$8f9ba6d1@the-general>

I do agree that 4 MB can do a good amount of stuff (even run IE3.02 for win
3.1).  Minix would be great, but my friend wanted to have Win'95 on it,
which is why I threw in the 120MB HD and 14.4 modem.  I figured that since
my IBM laptop runs Win'95 fairly good with a 386-20, 120MB HD, and 6 MB RAM,
that the Tandy (486-20) would run it great with 10 MB RAM, until I
discovered that the RAM wouldn't work, and it only has 4 MB.

Would a new BIOS chip solve the problem, or does the RAM limitation have to
do with the M/B?  I know in my Tandy 1800HD (same as 3800HD, but a 286),
when I put in the 4 MB chips, the computer boots, and recognizes 1 MB out of
each of the chips, then runs down a huge list of memory errors, then works
fine (after the errors are done).

If a new BIOS won't work, has anyone ever ran Win'95 with 4 MB RAM?  How
does it perform?

ThAnX,
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318


-----Original Message-----
From: Allison J Parent 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Tuesday, December 22, 1998 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
>
>I have run win3.1 in 2mb of ram and 40mb of disk(386/20).  Netscape would
>never run as they admit it want at least 5mb (and it's cranky at that).  I
>was able to run a lot of stuff and most dos programs successfully
>
>that was in '93 coad bloat would make that harder but at 4mb you could run
>quite a bit.  FYI, minix 3.0 in 4mb screams.
>
>Allison
>
>



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Dec 22 23:00:56 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: Actually On-Topic: Art Bell's Webcam...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981222235523.009461b0@mail.30below.com>
References: <19981222051427.1288.qmail@brouhaha.com>
 <009c01be2d57$d8ce0e60$bf281bce@p166>
Message-ID: 

It's a C-64 and a 1702 monitor.  Now then, just who the H*** is Art Bell?
This is the second time his name has come up in a subject, in a mailing
list that I'm in.

			Zane

>A good friend of mine gave Art Bell a picture from the movie "Somewhere in
>Time", which Art is holding up in front of his webcam in his home as we
>speak (type?? ;-)...  Art also mentioned my friend's name on the air!
>
>Anywho, in the background is a very *classic* Commodore - methinks a 64
>(weren't they darker than the VIC's???) sittint atop a commie monitor!
>
>Just thought you'd like to know.
>
>http://www.artbell.com/livecam.html
>
>(and you may have to click on the "studiocam" link.)
>
>Have fun, and happy holidaze!!!
>"Merch"

| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Tue Dec 22 23:00:25 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: Actually On-Topic: Art Bell's Webcam...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981222235523.009461b0@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Dec 22, 1998 11:55:23 PM
Message-ID: <199812230500.WAA16642@calico.litterbox.com>

> A good friend of mine gave Art Bell a picture from the movie "Somewhere in
> Time", which Art is holding up in front of his webcam in his home as we
> speak (type?? ;-)...  Art also mentioned my friend's name on the air!
> 
> Anywho, in the background is a very *classic* Commodore - methinks a 64
> (weren't they darker than the VIC's???) sittint atop a commie monitor!
> 

Yup.  It's the wrong color to be a VIC 20. Their keyboards were black instead
of brown, too, as I recall.

-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From fauradon at pclink.com  Tue Dec 22 23:13:26 1998
From: fauradon at pclink.com (Francois)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: Back on the List
Message-ID: <000801be2e32$ffbd6f80$1753fea9@francois>

Welcome back tim
Have you been looking around for computers in Guyana? Anything interesting?

Francois
-----Original Message-----
From: tim@thereviewguide.com 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Tuesday, December 22, 1998 3:33 PM
Subject: Back on the List


Hi.  For those who remember, and for those who care, I'm back.
After coming back from my vacation to my new home in Guyana...
(yes, I swore off Kool Aid) and found that it had numerous
problems.  After sorting most of them out, getting back on-track,
and then spending lots of time thinking about but not doing, I got
back on the list.

Ciao,

Tim D. Hotze




From zmerch at 30below.com  Tue Dec 22 23:19:53 1998
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: Actually On-Topic: Art Bell's Webcam...
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.1.32.19981222235523.009461b0@mail.30below.com>
 <19981222051427.1288.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981223001953.00950100@mail.30below.com>

Once upon a midnight dreary, Zane H. Healy had spoken clearly:
>It's a C-64 and a 1702 monitor.  Now then, just who the H*** is Art Bell?
>This is the second time his name has come up in a subject, in a mailing
>list that I'm in.

ObComputer: That's what I thought they were, but I was never a Commie expert.

ObArtBell: Right behind the picture of one of my favorite actresses of all
time, Jane Seymour.

Uh, oh, you said *who* not *where*. Sorry. (Dyslexia). He's an all-night
radio host who opens his show to a whole bunch of weirdos about "when man
emigrated from Mars to the Earth" and "I just invented a drug that will
allow Man to live forever" and other really weird shit like that. He's
actually a little more conservetive than the psycho's that call on his
show, but he's still fairly "out there." He's got quite the cult following
all across the country, and currently has the "most listened to all-nite
radio talk show" in the US, possibly the world. (dunno if any xlations
exist for his show.)

Oh, and a change from my original post - the pix was taken during Art's
live broadcast - not quite this recently. I didn't notice the timestamp.
Sorry.

Have fun, and Happy Holidaze!
"Merch"


From gram at cnct.com  Tue Dec 22 23:33:33 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: VAX/VMS Assistance Problem Solved
References: 
Message-ID: <368080AD.8B9176D1@cnct.com>

Wirehead Prime wrote:
> 
> > > At any rate, it works great and I'm able to transfer files onto
> > > and off of the machine.
> >
> > At _any_ rate?  As I recall, I last needed to use kermit sometime in
> > 1989 and the rate I used it at was 1200bps.  (Well, it's the fastest
> > speed that the modem in the 3B1 supported).  Damned if I can recall
> > what I was talking to.  I just know it wasn't a Unix machine and it
> > didn't do [xyz]modem.
> 
> Oh geez.  You know...come to think of it...oh no...
> 
> The last time I used kermit was to transfer files from my Mac SE that
> I bought in 1988 to the Vax 8650 at acad.drake.edu.  I'm transferring files
> from a Mac SE to a MicroVaxII in this case.  That's creepy.

At what rate? :-)}
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From lwalker at mail.interlog.com  Tue Dec 22 19:19:00 1998
From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: TV Typewriter Cookbook
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981222100154.00f822b0@pc>
References: <199812220151.UAA07616@smtp.interlog.com>
Message-ID: <199812230627.BAA12480@smtp.interlog.com>

On 22 Dec 98 at 10:01, John Foust wrote:

> At 08:46 PM 12/21/98 +0000, Lawrence Walker wrote:
> >On 20 Dec 98 at 18:25, Chuck McManis wrote:
> >
> >> 
> >> >My main find tho was a "TV Typewriter Cookbook" from Sams by Don
> Lancaster, 
> >> >the 
> >> >author of the TTL cookbook among others.
> >>          
> > Im going to have to keep my eyes open for any of his books. Quite
> fascinating 
> >stuff from an historical perspective.
> 
> Lancaster is still around at .  Lots of
> junk for sale, lots of curmudgeonly rants.
> 
> - John
> 
 What a great site ! Even mention of MY hero Tesla.
Thanks John.
 Happy holidays All !

ciao		larry
lwalker@interlog.com


From gram at cnct.com  Wed Dec 23 01:11:47 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
References: <01be2e48$4fab4520$8f9ba6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: <368097B3.E1CFF09C@cnct.com>

Jason Willgruber wrote:
> 
> I do agree that 4 MB can do a good amount of stuff (even run IE3.02 for win
> 3.1).  Minix would be great, but my friend wanted to have Win'95 on it,
> which is why I threw in the 120MB HD and 14.4 modem.  I figured that since
> my IBM laptop runs Win'95 fairly good with a 386-20, 120MB HD, and 6 MB RAM,
> that the Tandy (486-20) would run it great with 10 MB RAM, until I
> discovered that the RAM wouldn't work, and it only has 4 MB.
> 
> Would a new BIOS chip solve the problem, or does the RAM limitation have to
> do with the M/B?  I know in my Tandy 1800HD (same as 3800HD, but a 286),
> when I put in the 4 MB chips, the computer boots, and recognizes 1 MB out of
> each of the chips, then runs down a huge list of memory errors, then works
> fine (after the errors are done).
> 
> If a new BIOS won't work, has anyone ever ran Win'95 with 4 MB RAM?  How
> does it perform?

I've no idea how Win95 _works_ with 4MB RAM, since it doesn't _work_
with 16MB -- though with 16MB it boots within a few minutes.  I took
a system on which I'd loaded Win95 (P90, 16MB) and dropped it to 4MB
(I'd have preferred to use a smaller increment, but that's the SIMMS
I had).  Win95 seemed to be booting normally (the disk was thrashing
like a barracuda), but after 48 hours I decided the machine was
better off either dead or with a real OS, so it's got Linux.  Which
installed fine with the 4MB configuration.  And screamed when I
beefed it back up to 16MB.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From marvin at rain.org  Wed Dec 23 01:37:09 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: Heath Catalogs for sale
References: <3.0.1.32.19981222235523.009461b0@mail.30below.com>
	 <19981222051427.1288.qmail@brouhaha.com> <3.0.1.32.19981223001953.00950100@mail.30below.com>
Message-ID: <36809DA5.5AAF7787@rain.org>

In reading through the Heathkit listserver, I ran across this message. 
Contact the author directly as I am just relaying the message.


 Subject: 
        Heath catalogs FS
   Date: 
        Tue, 22 Dec 1998 23:48:25 EST
   From: 
        Chuck Penson 



Am thinning my collection and have a few Heath catalogs to sell. Prices
and condition as indicated.

Cheers,

Chuck / WA7ZZE

1960   Jan    VG   $25
1971   810    EX   $25   gloss paper general catalog
1974   801    G    $20 index sticker on front
1974   810    G    $20   index sticker on front
1975   Jan    VG   $20   index sticker on front
1976   807R   EX   $20
1976   809R   VG   $20   index sticker on front
1977   814R   VG   $20
1977   815R   G    $20   index sticker on front
1977   817R   VG   $20
1977   817R   VG   $20   index sticker on front
1978   819    EX   $20
1978   819R   VG   $20   index sticker on front
1978   820R   G    $20
1978   820R   VG   $20
1978   841R   VG   $20   index sticker on front
1979   843R   G    $20   index sticker on front
1979   844R   VG   $20   index sticker on front
1979   845    G    $20
1979   864R   G    $20   index sticker on front
1980   849R   EX   $20
1980   850    EX   $20
1981   852R   VG   $15   index sticker on front
1981   852R   VG   $15 index sticker on front
1981   Xmas   VG   $15   index sticker on front
1982   857    VG   $15   index sticker on front
1982   859R   VG   $15
1983   861    EX   $15
1983   Xmas   VG   $15
1984   864R   EX   $15
1984   864R   VG   $15
1984   865R   EX   $15
1984   865R   G    $12   index sticker on front
1984   865R   VG   $15
1984   866R   VG   $15   index sticker on front
1984   Xmas   G    $15
1985   868R   G    $15
1985   870R   EX   $15
1985   870R   VG   $15
1985   Xmas   VG   $15
1986   202R   VG   $15
1986   203R   EX   $15
1986   204R   EX   $15
1987   206R   EX   $15
1987   206R   VG   $15   index sticker on front
1987   207    VG   $15
1987   207R   EX   $15
1987   208R   EX   $15
1987   Xmas   VG   $15   index sticker on front
1988   211   VG    $12
1988   211R   G    $15   index sticker on front
1988   213    VG   $15
1988   Xmas   G    $15
1989   217    VG   $12
1989   Fall   VG   $12
1990   219    EX   $12
1990   219    EX   $12
1990   219    EX   $12
1990   221    VG   $12
1990   Xmas   EX   $12
1991   223    EX   $12
1991   224    EX   $12   "sale" catalog blowing out the last of the kits


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec 23 03:59:47 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: HELP
In-Reply-To: <000801be2d6d$b7683e60$b2c4adce@appclient>
Message-ID: <199812230901.JAA29128@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> >> >That is in the left hand corner.But it goes no
> >> >further,Does anyone have any idea what is going
> >> >on???? i have never messed with  one of these
> >> >and i dont know what its going on here.PLEASE
> >> >help me!!! Do i need  disks????
> >>
> >> Yep, you need disks. Go get a copy of ProDOS or some other Apple II OS. I
> >> don't know where to find them, bet there's lots of Apple II stuff on the
> >> internet and I know that there are disk images out ther SOMEWHERE. Try the
> >> comp.sys.apple2 FAQ, and of course some WebCrawler searches wouldn't hurt...

> >alltech is a licensed supplier of boot disks.   www.allelec.com
> >you can get the disks from apple's FTP site, but without a boot disk of
> >any kind that doesn't help you much.

> OK this thing is a trip if i keep turning it off and then on it boots to a
> prompt but if i just turn it on the 5 1\4 drive just stays on and it does
> nothing.I would be led to believe that there is something wrong.

Or just press Reset and use the ROM Basic !

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec 23 04:51:01 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: OT: Online auctins an institution?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19981222191218.734776c8@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: <199812230952.JAA03618@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> >to build a Z3 or Mark I). Also later on things like GUI
> >have been developed in a non capitalist environment. Not

> I know it sure *seems* like it, but really, Xerox was never out to lose
> money on computers...  

Of course not, my remark was more focused on the people and
their direct environment when doing new things. THe Xerox
management had nothing to do with it beside offering the
housing and parts - maybe they just didn't even know about
it - but wai, you say xerox wan's about to loos money ?
Why did they build _anything_ in such a poor quality (at
least around the end 70s undil late 80s) ?

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec 23 03:59:47 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: Price of a Lisa 2?
In-Reply-To: 
References: <00a801be2d48$b9b38dc0$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>
Message-ID: <199812230901.JAA29125@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > >Lisa II
> > >Working (Screen unstable).
> > >It has a 3-1/2 floppy drive.
> > >0.5 MB (or 1MB; unsure) RAM
> > >10 MB hard disk
> > >Software (all in German): LisaCalc, LisaList, LisaWrite, LisaGraph
> > >and the manuals (on backup disks, not on the original disks).

> Sounds like a Lisa 2/10 that wasn't Mac XL'd.  Believe it or not, the
> (original) software and manuals alone sold for $568 on eOverpay recently. 
> But a working Lisa 2/10 seems to only bring $200-$300 (unless it includes
> a printer, then it's back up to $551; go figure).

> Tell him to fix the screen, and it should bring an extra $250 from those
> who can't fix the screen themselves.

And don't forget to tell him how bad money transfer between
the US and Europe is - And to think about the horrible trans-
portation costs - but if he can get this prices, he should
jup on (while I don't know, if the German language version
can par in demand). Over here the actual price of a 2/10 is
between 150 and 500 Mark, thats some 100 to 300 USD.

Gruss
Hans

P.S.: my last one, including almost a complete lisa in original
packed spare parts was just free - I had only to pay the gas
for 1500 miles of diving :)

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Arlen.Michaels.amichael at nortelnetworks.com  Tue Dec 22 09:59:43 1998
From: Arlen.Michaels.amichael at nortelnetworks.com (Arlen Michaels)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: TV Typewriter Cookbook
Message-ID: <13E2EF604DE5D111B2E50000F80824E86C5E76@zwdld001.ca.nortel.com>

> >My main find tho was a "TV Typewriter Cookbook" from Sams by Don
	>Lancaster, the 

Have to check my basement, but I _think_ I have an extra copy of this book
if anyone needs it.

Arlen

--
Arlen Michaels     amichael@nortelnetworks.com



From Arlen.Michaels.amichael at nortelnetworks.com  Tue Dec 22 09:54:17 1998
From: Arlen.Michaels.amichael at nortelnetworks.com (Arlen Michaels)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: Rair systems
Message-ID: <13E2EF604DE5D111B2E50000F80824E86C5E75@zwdld001.ca.nortel.com>

> Sam Ismail  wrote:
> 
> Oh cool.  I didn't think anyone would have ever heard of these, let alone
> work with one as Jim did.
> 
I think they're genuinely rair  ;)

I also own two.  The first was a hand-me-down from the Scottish university
where I worked in the early 80's.  (Too bad I wasn't able to inherit the
Perq they had around then too!)  I found my second Rair, incredibly, at a
garage sale in Aylmer, Quebec, only a few months ago.

Information about these machines is scarce also, although I'd expect Tony
and other friends in the UK might be in a better position to dig something
up.  These rather elegantly styled micros (well, for the time: 1979-81)
originated in England.  The earliest models were built using the 8085,
around an idiosyncratic motherboard/bus design (not S-100), and ran CP/M.
Mine has the most complex-looking, overdesigned switch-mode power supply
I've ever seen (although some DEC models perhaps come close).  I think, but
I'm not sure, that they put 8086's into their later models.

Around 1981, I recall the British computer conglomerate ICL re-badged the
Rair micros under their own name and sold them that way for a couple of
years, probably because like many other huge computer companies they needed
to get a micro on the market quickly to regain some credibility in the new
marketplace for small computers.  Somewhere, I have a reference to a defunct
American company (Drake Micros?) that sold Rair for a while.  If anyone is
desperate to know I will dig up that bit of history.

My original Rair machine is I think the original design:  dual floppies, 32K
ram, running CP/M v1.4 with a dumb terminal.  It runs, and I can supply a
boot disk for this model.

The other machine is a little more recent and is blessed with a hard drive
and is supposed to run CP/M v2.2 --but it won't boot.  The hardware design
is quite different from the original model, and my v1.4 floppy won't  boot
up this machine.  So, if anyone can provide a system disk for this beastie
I'd be very grateful.

Arlen

--
Arlen Michaels     amichael@nortelnetworks.com



From Arlen.Michaels.amichael at nortelnetworks.com  Tue Dec 22 15:07:44 1998
From: Arlen.Michaels.amichael at nortelnetworks.com (Arlen Michaels)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: Info Needed: Motorola EXORcisor 6800 System
Message-ID: <13E2EF604DE5D111B2E50000F80824E86C5E7B@zwdld001.ca.nortel.com>

> Kevin McQuiggin  wrote:
> 
> Anybody else have one of these? I understand that Bill Yakowenko (sp?)
> does, but don't have his email.
> 
> Any and all info appreciated. There's nothing on ther web that I can find.
> It dates from 1975.
> 
I remember seeing these used to develop embedded microprocessor systems for
applications like industrial control, back in 1979.  I was using a Kontron
development system then so I didn't use the EXORcisor firsthand.  As I
recall, it had a backplane that accepted cards from Motorola and a few
3rd-party manufacturers (cpu, memory, serial ports, etc).  The cards had
dimensions similar to S-100 but were 86-pin or something like that, and of
course the bus incorporated more 6800-ish signals, like the E clock signal
used to synchronize bus events.  

The idea was that you could run the EXORcisor itself as a general-purpose
computer (monitor, editor, assembler, Basic, and so on--running on top of a
proprietary Motorola OS that I can't recall)  and you could stuff in any
special boards you were developing for your application and so integrate
them into your software development.  When you had the code debugged, you'd
blow an eprom, pull the boards out and stuff them into their own cabinet,
insert the eprom, and start up your embedded system independent of the
EXORcisor.  

One interesting  thing was that many of Motorola's standalone (KIM-like)
single-board computer "development kits" like the "D2" had the same
EXORcisor bus connector and you could easily mix-and-match those boards with
standard EXORcisor cards.

I have a couple of EXORcisor cards somewhere (a Burr-Brown D to A card, some
memory boards I think?) but no EXORcisor and no documents.  So if you have
documentation I'd like to take advantage and get copies of the relevant
schematics, etc.  I also think I have a couple of ROMs containing Motorola
Basic that would probably work if plugged into an EXORcisor memory card.

The system you've got probably sold for upwards of $20K back then.  This was
state-of-the-art professional gear, so admiration and respect are warranted
:)

Arlen

--
Arlen Michaels     amichael@nortelnetworks.com



From tim at thereviewguide.com  Wed Dec 23 06:24:43 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: Back on the List
In-Reply-To: <000801be2e32$ffbd6f80$1753fea9@francois>
Message-ID: <199812231225.EAA03976@geocities.com>

> Welcome back tim
> Have you been looking around for computers in Guyana? Anything interesting?

Looking? Yeah... all over... but in a country where a XT's a status 
item... I haven't been very successful. I was able to get a complete 
XT system with tons of unopened software, manuals, etc. (As well 
as a brand-new IBM ProPrinter I) from the person right below the 
Ambadassor at the Embassy here.  Of course, the XT's no biggie, 
but the naunals, etc. are.  I'm trying to work up the will to get ELKS 
or something on the XT.
 
> Francois
Tim



From tim at thereviewguide.com  Wed Dec 23 06:24:43 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <368097B3.E1CFF09C@cnct.com>
Message-ID: <199812231225.EAA04027@geocities.com>

> I've no idea how Win95 _works_ with 4MB RAM, since it doesn't _work_
> with 16MB -- though with 16MB it boots within a few minutes.  I took

I agree.  My 486 came with 4MB RAM, which, when RAM was still 
$50/mb, was beefed up to 12MB RAM.  Note that that's one of 
those cool father-son teaching things.  Since then, the same 486 
has been beefed further up to 28MB RAM... and since then, all my 
computers have fallowed suit. With 28MB and a 486/66, Windows 
95 ran quite nicely, for Windows 95.  
> a system on which I'd loaded Win95 (P90, 16MB) and dropped it to 4MB
> (I'd have preferred to use a smaller increment, but that's the SIMMS
> I had).  Win95 seemed to be booting normally (the disk was thrashing
> like a barracuda), but after 48 hours I decided the machine was
> better off either dead or with a real OS, so it's got Linux.  Which
> installed fine with the 4MB configuration.  And screamed when I
> beefed it back up to 16MB.

I agree here, too.  Windows 95 really won't like a 486/20.  Sure, in 
theory, it SHOULD boot, but your lifetime warranty on RAM might 
expire before you get to see a Start button.  Seriously, I'd use 
Windows 3.1.  It's a failry efficent OS, and basically, most 
Windows 95 applications other than Windows 95 it self, REQUIRE 
at least an upper-end 486, whereas Windows 3.1's happy with a 
486/20 and Win32's.

I'd also consider running Linux, if your friend is technically-aware, 
which will run quite nicely on a 386.. I've got a 386/40 here with 
8MB, and it can probably beat my Pentium/233 in Windows.

Tim D. Hotze


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec 23 07:37:16 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: Back on the List
In-Reply-To: <199812231225.EAA03976@geocities.com>
References: <000801be2e32$ffbd6f80$1753fea9@francois>
Message-ID: <199812231238.MAA23803@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > Welcome back tim
> > Have you been looking around for computers in Guyana? Anything interesting?

> Looking? Yeah... all over... but in a country where a XT's a status 
> item... I haven't been very successful. I was able to get a complete 
> XT system with tons of unopened software, manuals, etc. (As well 
> as a brand-new IBM ProPrinter I) from the person right below the 
> Ambadassor at the Embassy here.  Of course, the XT's no biggie, 
> but the naunals, etc. are. 

No Homecomputers or obscure pre PC stuff ?

Gruss
hans

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From tim at thereviewguide.com  Wed Dec 23 06:51:48 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:28 2005
Subject: Back on the List
In-Reply-To: <199812231238.MAA23803@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
References: <199812231225.EAA03976@geocities.com>
Message-ID: <199812231252.EAA04372@geocities.com>

> No Homecomputers or obscure pre PC stuff ?

Nope... see, I think that the people that could afford computers (the 
very rich in Guyana) thought they were a over-technical fad until the 
days of the PC.  Unlike other places, very few of even the rich 
people are even fairly educated (IE any college), so it wasn't until 
the days of the PC that people got computers.  From what I can 
tell, the average is a Pentium 133 running Windows 3.1 with 16MB 
RAM... makes me feel powerful.

> Gruss
> hans
Tim



From dogas at leading.net  Wed Dec 23 07:03:28 1998
From: dogas at leading.net (Mike)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: vaugue musings...
Message-ID: <01be2e74$a226fa20$fbc962cf@devlaptop>

Not having an assembly manual for any of the early 8bit kits (altair, imsai,
etc...)  I was wondering about the experiences/success of anyone
DISassembling one *back* to kit form.  Anybody?

MIke: dogas@leading.net




From allisonp at world.std.com  Wed Dec 23 07:40:28 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: vaugue musings...
In-Reply-To: <01be2e74$a226fa20$fbc962cf@devlaptop>
Message-ID: 


On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Mike wrote:

> Not having an assembly manual for any of the early 8bit kits (altair, imsai,
> etc...)  I was wondering about the experiences/success of anyone
> DISassembling one *back* to kit form.  Anybody?

You cannot be serious about that.  The soldering and board etches are not
always the best quality and desoldering all them holes is a major task
never mind the potential of cooking a soldered in componenet..

I've built three altairs (8800A or earlier) and they were not fun to
assemble but it saved a bundle.

Allison



From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Wed Dec 23 08:40:35 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Actually On-Topic: Art Bell's Webcam...
In-Reply-To: <199812230500.WAA16642@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Dec 22, 98 10:00:25 pm
Message-ID: <199812231440.GAA15384@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From gram at cnct.com  Wed Dec 23 09:19:26 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: vaugue musings...
References: 
Message-ID: <368109FE.B95336AF@cnct.com>

allisonp@world.std.com wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Mike wrote:
> 
> > Not having an assembly manual for any of the early 8bit kits (altair, imsai,
> > etc...)  I was wondering about the experiences/success of anyone
> > DISassembling one *back* to kit form.  Anybody?
> 
> You cannot be serious about that.  The soldering and board etches are not
> always the best quality and desoldering all them holes is a major task
> never mind the potential of cooking a soldered in componenet..
> 
> I've built three altairs (8800A or earlier) and they were not fun to
> assemble but it saved a bundle.

Un-etching a board is a challenge I would not accept.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec 23 10:45:25 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: vaugue musings...
In-Reply-To: <368109FE.B95336AF@cnct.com>
Message-ID: <199812231546.PAA14951@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > > Not having an assembly manual for any of the early 8bit kits (altair, imsai,
> > > etc...)  I was wondering about the experiences/success of anyone
> > > DISassembling one *back* to kit form.  Anybody?

> > You cannot be serious about that.  The soldering and board etches are not
> > always the best quality and desoldering all them holes is a major task
> > never mind the potential of cooking a soldered in componenet..

> > I've built three altairs (8800A or earlier) and they were not fun to
> > assemble but it saved a bundle.
> 
> Un-etching a board is a challenge I would not accept.

Un-etching?

For unsoldering if this is what its about, I developed
a well working solution. take a vertical mounted vice
insert the PCB with one edge, component face down and
take one of these 'super hair dryers' (as used for
removing old paint from windows) and fry the backside.
try to sperad the heat over the whole board - just like
hair drying. With the other hand (you need only one hand
to hold the fan) tip onto the unfixed end of the board
to allow the components to drop out of the holes. If a
part is fixed thru bended wires/pins, you might need to
help with a screwdriver - ACHTUNG - more heat will NOT
help :)

I used this method on literaly hundreds of boards to free
components for reuse. During on time around '86 or '87 I
unsoldered about 60 MB in 41256 chips from old PBX boards
(At this time 41256 where still valuable in PCs :) I had
no memory shortage back then :). At time I build an almost
automatic unsoldering work bench ... I took 4 old 220 V
coils from power relays (?) fixed them in th corners of a
wooden case (an old drawer) and build a framework of light
wood with 4 thick nails to go inside the coils. Atop the
frame the PCB was layed face down. Now, if I powered the
coils, they lifted the frame (almost like a maglev train
huh :), and, since it was 220V 50 Hz shaked it with a soft
frequency of 50 Hz - now I only had to move the heating fan
above and wait for the dropping RAM chips.

Of course, if you use a vice to fix the PCB _and_ you want
to keep the PCB you should fix it with an additional layer
of soft tissue (or better rubber), and don't shake to hard.

Servus
Hans




--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From jfoust at threedee.com  Wed Dec 23 09:47:37 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Price of a Lisa 2?
In-Reply-To: <199812230901.JAA29125@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
References: 
 <00a801be2d48$b9b38dc0$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981223094737.00e91c80@pc>

At 10:00 AM 12/23/98 +1, Hans Franke wrote:
>
>And don't forget to tell him how bad money transfer between
>the US and Europe is 

It seems most people don't know about the "international postal money 
order," available at your post office, almost anywhere on Earth.
It's cheaper than cutting a check in another country's funds.

> And to think about the horrible transportation costs -

Sorry, can't do anything about that...  although it sounds like
an enterprising computer arbitrageur or even an antique dealer
could make some money by filling a trans-ocean container with
"rare" European computers, and shipping it to San Francisco,
and vice-versa.

- John



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec 23 11:01:08 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Price of a Lisa 2?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981223094737.00e91c80@pc>
References: <199812230901.JAA29125@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <199812231602.QAA16172@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> >And don't forget to tell him how bad money transfer between
> >the US and Europe is 
> It seems most people don't know about the "international postal money 
> order," available at your post office, almost anywhere on Earth.
> It's cheaper than cutting a check in another country's funds.

THe cheapest (at least from an european perspective) is still
a direct account to account transfer (and the method of coice
over here ).

> > And to think about the horrible transportation costs -

> Sorry, can't do anything about that...  although it sounds like
> an enterprising computer arbitrageur or even an antique dealer
> could make some money by filling a trans-ocean container with
> "rare" European computers, and shipping it to San Francisco,
> and vice-versa.

Not so new, I know at least 2 men who are visiting US fleamarkets/
swap meets and buy tons of junk, fill containers and sell them
again in a simmilar environment over here - I found a nice Patchinko
machine here, that has been used in Seattle before and shipped this
way.

By the way, I still lokk for people interested in Russian PDP
clones - I can send some, but again one is to expensive.

If I had any idea to sell them over in the US, I would like to
do this with european computers. But its hard without storage
and time to sell - I just can't stack them and wait for sale.

And for the cost, a complete 20' container is available for less
than 1800 USD between the West coast and an European port (like
Hamburg) So, I guess, starting from 10 or 12 compurers, this
would be a lot cheaper than surface postage - and more early if
they are heavy weight S100s.

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From gram at cnct.com  Wed Dec 23 10:16:52 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: vaugue musings...
References: <199812231546.PAA14951@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <36811774.7346904B@cnct.com>

Hans Franke wrote:
> 
> > > > Not having an assembly manual for any of the early 8bit kits (altair, imsai,
> > > > etc...)  I was wondering about the experiences/success of anyone
> > > > DISassembling one *back* to kit form.  Anybody?
> 
> > > You cannot be serious about that.  The soldering and board etches are not
> > > always the best quality and desoldering all them holes is a major task
> > > never mind the potential of cooking a soldered in componenet..
> 
> > > I've built three altairs (8800A or earlier) and they were not fun to
> > > assemble but it saved a bundle.
> >
> > Un-etching a board is a challenge I would not accept.
> 
> Un-etching?
> 
> For unsoldering if this is what its about, I developed
> a well working solution. take a vertical mounted vice
> insert the PCB with one edge, component face down and
> take one of these 'super hair dryers' (as used for
> removing old paint from windows) and fry the backside.
> try to sperad the heat over the whole board - just like
> hair drying. With the other hand (you need only one hand
> to hold the fan) tip onto the unfixed end of the board
> to allow the components to drop out of the holes. If a
> part is fixed thru bended wires/pins, you might need to
> help with a screwdriver - ACHTUNG - more heat will NOT
> help :)
> 
> I used this method on literaly hundreds of boards to free
> components for reuse. During on time around '86 or '87 I
> unsoldered about 60 MB in 41256 chips from old PBX boards
> (At this time 41256 where still valuable in PCs :) I had
> no memory shortage back then :). At time I build an almost
> automatic unsoldering work bench ... I took 4 old 220 V
> coils from power relays (?) fixed them in th corners of a
> wooden case (an old drawer) and build a framework of light
> wood with 4 thick nails to go inside the coils. Atop the
> frame the PCB was layed face down. Now, if I powered the
> coils, they lifted the frame (almost like a maglev train
> huh :), and, since it was 220V 50 Hz shaked it with a soft
> frequency of 50 Hz - now I only had to move the heating fan
> above and wait for the dropping RAM chips.
> 
> Of course, if you use a vice to fix the PCB _and_ you want
> to keep the PCB you should fix it with an additional layer
> of soft tissue (or better rubber), and don't shake to hard.

No, un-etching was the term I used.  Kits used to start with a
sheet of material coated with copper and (usually you applied it
yourself) wax.  You scraped off wax where you didn't want the
traces to be, then you dipped it in acid to remove the bare
copper.  You'd find out quickly whether you'd applied or scraped
the wax properly.  Un-etching would imply putting the copper back
on the board to return the kit to its virgin condition.

Stripping components from a board is easy.  I was doing that
before Clinton seduced his first cheerleader in high school.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From KFergason at aol.com  Wed Dec 23 10:12:11 1998
From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 12/23/98 4:27:04 AM Pacific Standard Time,
tim@thereviewguide.com writes:

> > I've no idea how Win95 _works_ with 4MB RAM, since it doesn't _work_
>  > with 16MB -- though with 16MB it boots within a few minutes.  I took
>  

>  
>  I agree here, too.  Windows 95 really won't like a 486/20.  Sure, in 

my girlfriend runs Win95 on a 386/20 Dell laptop.  a little slow, but actually
not that bad.  oh, 4M of ram.  the slowest thing is printing.

Kelly


From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com  Wed Dec 23 10:21:34 1998
From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: what is this? motorola alphamate
In-Reply-To: <59e9b925.3680702d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981223082134.00971940@mail.bluefeathertech.com>

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From jfoust at threedee.com  Wed Dec 23 10:20:58 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Price of a Lisa 2?
In-Reply-To: <199812231602.QAA16172@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
References: <3.0.5.32.19981223094737.00e91c80@pc>
 <199812230901.JAA29125@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981223102058.00f20ec0@pc>

At 05:02 PM 12/23/98 +1, Hans Franke wrote:
>
>THe cheapest (at least from an european perspective) is still
>a direct account to account transfer (and the method of coice
>over here ).

Huh?  That costs about $20 over here.  The post office only
charges a few bucks to do it.

- John



From IVIE at cc.usu.edu  Wed Dec 23 10:55:06 1998
From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: VAX/VMS Assistance Requested
Message-ID: <01J5O8KCZXPI94DVPS@cc.usu.edu>

> If you have any programming languages at all on the machine you could try
> writing a uudecode utility and then uuencoding the kermit binary on another
> machine, and doing the cut and paste you were talking about.  You could 
> probably write a uudecode in DCL, but it would be slow, ugly, and nasty.

You shouldn't need to do that, especially to get KERMIT over. KERMIT-32
(the old Macro-32'ed BLISSengized version) includes a hexengized program
and a small dehexer. You type in the dehexer (which is written in MACRO-32)
and transmit the hexengized kermit using something like MS-DOS kermit's
TRANSFER command (which sends a line at a time) then use the dehexer to
dehex the hexengized version and voila! KERMIT up and running.

FTP on over to kermit.columbia.edu or web over to http://www.columbia.edu/kermit
and look about.

Roger Ivie
ivie@cc.usu.edu


From dburrows at netpath.net  Wed Dec 23 11:46:28 1998
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Fw: Free to museum or collector
Message-ID: <01d201be2e9d$5cf8b960$bf281bce@p166>

Found this on usenet if anyone is interested.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: Stan Korzep <%skorzep@magicnet.net>
Newsgroups: misc.forsale.computers.other.misc
Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 7:45 PM
Subject: Free to museum or collector


Zenith Z100 monitor/computer/keyboard like new.  Operational.  ZDOS and
CPM.  All Documentation. Modem. Printer. Extra power supply.  Owner was
ready to pitch it.  Free to good home if new home will pay shipping.

Contact Gene at gene_grant@msn.com.



From eric at brouhaha.com  Wed Dec 23 12:06:18 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Price of a Lisa 2?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981223102058.00f20ec0@pc> (message from John Foust on
	Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:20:58 -0600)
References: <3.0.5.32.19981223094737.00e91c80@pc>
 <199812230901.JAA29125@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> <3.0.5.32.19981223102058.00f20ec0@pc>
Message-ID: <19981223180618.10830.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Hans wrote:
> THe cheapest (at least from an european perspective) is still
> a direct account to account transfer (and the method of coice
> over here ).

John wrote:
> Huh?  That costs about $20 over here.  The post office only
> charges a few bucks to do it.

Yes, but how much does it cost someone in Europe to *deposit* the
international money order to their bank account?  Hint:  it's not free.


From jfoust at threedee.com  Wed Dec 23 12:08:02 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Price of a Lisa 2?
In-Reply-To: <19981223180618.10830.qmail@brouhaha.com>
References: <3.0.5.32.19981223102058.00f20ec0@pc>
 <3.0.5.32.19981223094737.00e91c80@pc>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981223120802.00ec8bb0@pc>

At 06:06 PM 12/23/98 -0000, Eric Smith wrote:
>
>Yes, but how much does it cost someone in Europe to *deposit* the
>international money order to their bank account?  Hint:  it's not free.

Over here, it acts like a check, and as far as I remember, didn't
cost me anything to deposit.

- John



From jimw at agora.rdrop.com  Wed Dec 23 12:19:41 1998
From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Help fill in the blanks...
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981223101941.0073e600@agora.rdrop.com>

I've finally gotten round to putting a page up with the pictures that I
shot at the Moffitt Field Historical Computer Collection "Visible Storage"
facility during VCF II, but have spaced a bit on the identities of some of
the artifacts.

The page is not quite ready for public consumption yet, as it is still
missing various titles and it should be a bit better organized...  But, if
anyone would like to take a look, and perhaps assist with identifying the
units without titles, you can access the page at:

http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw/jcgm-mfhcc.html

Until I get this page 'finished', there won't be a link from the regular
'Computer Garage' pages, so you will need to use the direct URL above.

Thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide!
-jim

---
jimw@agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174




From gram at cnct.com  Wed Dec 23 12:53:41 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Price of a Lisa 2?
References: <3.0.5.32.19981223102058.00f20ec0@pc>
	 <3.0.5.32.19981223094737.00e91c80@pc> <3.0.5.32.19981223120802.00ec8bb0@pc>
Message-ID: <36813C35.9EE38FEC@cnct.com>

John Foust wrote:
> 
> At 06:06 PM 12/23/98 -0000, Eric Smith wrote:
> >
> >Yes, but how much does it cost someone in Europe to *deposit* the
> >international money order to their bank account?  Hint:  it's not free.
> 
> Over here, it acts like a check, and as far as I remember, didn't
> cost me anything to deposit.

Then you probably sunk at least 25% in "conversion factor".  That is
often invisible unless you watch the markets.  (I don't mostly, it's
speculating between the "values" of fiat moneys trying to predict
what the governments will do with or to each other).
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From jfoust at threedee.com  Wed Dec 23 13:05:23 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Price of a Lisa 2?
In-Reply-To: <36813C35.9EE38FEC@cnct.com>
References: <3.0.5.32.19981223102058.00f20ec0@pc>
 <3.0.5.32.19981223094737.00e91c80@pc>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981223130523.00ec1450@pc>

At 01:53 PM 12/23/98 -0500, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:
>
>Then you probably sunk at least 25% in "conversion factor".  That is
>often invisible unless you watch the markets.  (I don't mostly, it's
>speculating between the "values" of fiat moneys trying to predict
>what the governments will do with or to each other).

My experience is with receiving these as payment from overseas
customers.  Customers being what they are, they'd complain about
the least little thing - but I don't remember any complaints
about conversion rates.  I did hear about high wire-transfer fees
and often had pleas to put false values on customs forms...

- John



From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Wed Dec 23 14:04:42 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Price of a Lisa 2?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981223130523.00ec1450@pc>
Message-ID: <000a01be2eaf$7ac46b80$2af438cb@a.davie>

> My experience is with receiving these as payment from overseas
> customers.  Customers being what they are, they'd complain about
> the least little thing - but I don't remember any complaints
> about conversion rates.  I did hear about high wire-transfer fees
> and often had pleas to put false values on customs forms...

Customs here will assess 26% of appraised value on anything computer like
that you import.  Unless you can prove you've owned it for over 12 months,
you'll have to prove that impressive looking computer is practically
valueless in the market.  Sometimes, with customs agents, that's harder than
you might think - sure it might be a piece of junk for using - but it's a
collectible - an antique, right?

A





From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 23 13:06:41 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: vaugue musings...
In-Reply-To: <01be2e74$a226fa20$fbc962cf@devlaptop> from "Mike" at Dec 23, 98 08:03:28 am
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 23 13:08:59 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: vaugue musings...
In-Reply-To: <368109FE.B95336AF@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Dec 23, 98 10:19:26 am
Message-ID: 

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From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Wed Dec 23 14:40:09 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: vaugue musings...
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <001f01be2eb4$6e4a32e0$2af438cb@a.davie>

> > Not having an assembly manual for any of the early 8bit kits
> (altair, imsai,
> > etc...)  I was wondering about the experiences/success of anyone
> > DISassembling one *back* to kit form.  Anybody?


This got me to wondering...  has an unassembled kit Altair recently sold,
somewhere, for gobs and gobs of money?   Just guessing.  Maybe I'm too
cynical ;)
A



From oldradios at radiolink.net  Wed Dec 23 15:08:36 1998
From: oldradios at radiolink.net (The Old Radios Trade)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Old Radios
Message-ID: <65.981224@radiolink.net>

Dear Colleagues

We have for sale multitude of rare russian antiquarian radios.
There are Zvezda 54 (RED STAR) , Belarus 53, SVD9 and many others solid radios.

We have are the following portable radios:
model,   year.

Gauya, 61
Neva, 60
Mir, 62
Lastochka, 62
Neva 2, 63
Kiev 7, 63
Planeta, 64
Saturn, 64
Selga, 63
Almaz, 64
Orbita, 65
Sokol 2, 65
Quartz 401, 70
Orbita 2, 70
Selga 402, 70
Yupiter, 64
Neiva, 64
Signal, 64
Etud, 67
Kosmos, 63
Orlenok, 67
Kosmos 602, 70
Rubin, 66
Surpris (Notebook), 67
Era 2M, 65
Mayak 1, 65
Mikro, 66
Atmosfera, 59
Alpinist, 64
Kosmonavt, 64
Riga 301A, 66
Geala, 68
Spidola, 62
Banga, 65
Sport 2, 66
Sokol 4, 67
Sonata, 65
Souvenir, 65
Meridian, 67
Wef 12, 67
Wega, 68
Russia 301, 70
Okean, 70
Riga 103, 68
Riga 302, 69

Also we have multitude of old russian vacuum tubes and old radio details.
We have old russian TV's, LP's, old audio articles and cameras.

Please inform what are you interested from Russia ? We will be happy to help you.

Unfortunately we can not make photos of our radios. Therefore we are sending you a photo of
Russian Red Star which made collector from England.

If you interested something please let us know.
Our e-mail is: oldradios@radiolink.net

Yours sincerely

The Old Radios Trade
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From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Wed Dec 23 15:36:20 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <007e01be2ebc$4a388520$e5021a26@maxeskin>

A _little_? How many minutes does it take to boot? I have tried booting a
486sx/20 with 4 MB RAM from a  premade Win95 setup, and it took a looong
time! I started and finished a major meal and it still wasn't done.
>my girlfriend runs Win95 on a 386/20 Dell laptop.  a little slow, but
actually
>not that bad.  oh, 4M of ram.  the slowest thing is printing.
>
>Kelly



From gram at cnct.com  Wed Dec 23 15:49:08 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: vaugue musings...
References: 
Message-ID: <36816554.E727EDB4@cnct.com>

Tony Duell wrote:
> 
> [Disassembling a kit]
> > Un-etching a board is a challenge I would not accept.
> 
> Did/do US kits come with unetched boards, then? All the kits I've got in
> the UK come with pre-etched (and normally drilled, although I have had to
> drill the board myself for a couple of kits) PCBs.
> 
> No, unetching a board is going to be impossible. The only hope is to get
> a blank piece of copper-clad of the right size. Hardly original.

Actually, some kits did come with a blank piece of copper-clad of
somewhere close to the right size.  My ex-co-husband did a couple
of them back in the 70s.  I'd rather do wire-wrap myself.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From gram at cnct.com  Wed Dec 23 15:57:04 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Old Radios
References: <65.981224@radiolink.net>
Message-ID: <36816730.3A480243@cnct.com>

The Old Radios Trade wrote:
> 
> Dear Colleagues
> 
> We have for sale multitude of rare russian antiquarian radios.
> There are Zvezda 54 (RED STAR) , Belarus 53, SVD9 and many others solid radios.

That's what we get for being an open list.  Much better than any
of the ads I get when I admit my existence on Usenet, anyway.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From pctech at davidbowie.com  Wed Dec 23 15:52:27 1998
From: pctech at davidbowie.com (PCTech)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Free to museum or collector
Message-ID: <000601be2ebe$89c1dc80$d3c7adce@pctech.davidbowie.com>

I'll take it
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel T. Burrows 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 9:59 AM
Subject: Fw: Free to museum or collector


>Found this on usenet if anyone is interested.
>Dan
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Stan Korzep <%skorzep@magicnet.net>
>Newsgroups: misc.forsale.computers.other.misc
>Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 7:45 PM
>Subject: Free to museum or collector
>
>
>Zenith Z100 monitor/computer/keyboard like new.  Operational.  ZDOS and
>CPM.  All Documentation. Modem. Printer. Extra power supply.  Owner was
>ready to pitch it.  Free to good home if new home will pay shipping.
>
>Contact Gene at gene_grant@msn.com.
>



From roblwill at usaor.net  Wed Dec 23 19:08:05 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <01be2ed9$dc85f4e0$8b9ba6d1@the-general>

Well, even though I haven't tried it yet, it HAS to be faster booting than
my Toshiba 200CDS.  (100MHz Pentium, 8 MB RAM, Win 95OSR2).  It takes 15-20
minutes to boot, and with absolutely NOTHING running but Explorer and IE,
89% of all system resources are used.  It's the worst computer I ever owned,
and make more use of the 386-20 IBM PS/2 L40sx laptop w/ 6 MB RAM.  And, I
may add it only takes 1.34 minutes to boot (Win '95 OSR2) - yes, I timed it.
Only problem is that the keyboard quit.  Anyone have a replacement?  I don't
really feel like paying $90 for one from IBM.

Happy Holidaze,
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318


-----Original Message-----
From: Max Eskin 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade


>A _little_? How many minutes does it take to boot? I have tried booting a
>486sx/20 with 4 MB RAM from a  premade Win95 setup, and it took a looong
>time! I started and finished a major meal and it still wasn't done.
>>my girlfriend runs Win95 on a 386/20 Dell laptop.  a little slow, but
>actually
>>not that bad.  oh, 4M of ram.  the slowest thing is printing.
>>
>>Kelly
>
>



From Marty at itgonline.com  Wed Dec 23 16:40:53 1998
From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Old Radios
Message-ID: <1998Dec23.173845.1767.173734@smtp.itgonline.com>

 Come now comrade Griffiths, an old radio never hurt anyone. 
 
 Marty
 


______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Old Radios
Author:  classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet
Date:    12/23/98 4:54 PM


 The Old Radios Trade wrote:
 >
 > Dear Colleagues
 >
 > We have for sale multitude of rare russian antiquarian radios.
 > There are Zvezda 54 (RED STAR) , Belarus 53, SVD9 and many others solid 
 radios.
 
 That's what we get for being an open list.  Much better than any 
 of the ads I get when I admit my existence on Usenet, anyway.
 --
 Ward Griffiths  
 
 WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, 
 and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.
 
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 Precedence: bulk
 From: Ward Donald Griffiths III 
 To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
 
 Subject: Re: Old Radios
 References: <65.981224@radiolink.net> 
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From roblwill at usaor.net  Wed Dec 23 19:56:20 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Old Radios
Message-ID: <01be2ee0$99fd0300$b58ea6d1@the-general>

I collect old radios, and I can definitely say differently.  Just try
plugging in a metal-cabinet radio with a few bad tubes, turning it on, and
touching the case.  Also, get out of the way when a shelf collapses with a
52-pound short-wave receiver on it.  Other than that, you're probably right.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318


-----Original Message-----
From: Marty 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: Old Radios


> Come now comrade Griffiths, an old radio never hurt anyone.
>
> Marty
>
>
>




From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Wed Dec 23 17:35:26 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: rz23s
Message-ID: <199812232335.QAA25761@calico.litterbox.com>

Well, my 2 100mb drives from alltronics arrived.  They are indeed rz23s.  
And the price turned out to be $14.95 each.  A good deal, assuming they work.
-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 23 17:17:43 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Old Radios
In-Reply-To: <36816730.3A480243@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Dec 23, 98 04:57:04 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 23 17:18:40 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Old Radios
In-Reply-To: <1998Dec23.173845.1767.173734@smtp.itgonline.com> from "Marty" at Dec 23, 98 05:40:53 pm
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From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au  Wed Dec 23 18:22:45 1998
From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Old Radios
Message-ID: <01be2ed3$87500ca0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Thursday, 24 December 1998 11:16
Subject: Re: Old Radios


>>
>>  Come now comrade Griffiths, an old radio never hurt anyone.
>
>What, not even if you touch the chassis of an AA5 with wet hands?


Da, tovarisch.

Not to mention the exploding electrolytic effect when a radio that's sat
through about 20 Australian summers in a tin shed and is dryer than
most  Middle Kingdom Egyptian Mummys is powered up for the first
time.

Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie
South Australia.
netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au



From handyman at sprintmail.com  Wed Dec 23 06:38:31 1998
From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Commodore Pet 2001
References: <199812232335.QAA25761@calico.litterbox.com>
Message-ID: <3680E446.5452833F@sprintmail.com>

I have been searching the internet for 6 months now for a
Commodore Pet ..
Well I finally got an original Commodore Pet 2001 8MB RAM
Purchased this fine computer from an individual for $230.00
knowing that it did not work.
It is cosmetically in Very Fine Condition, however the previous
owner said it was dead and only got a cursor on the screen..
After I received it, I started looking closely on the main board
and there it was a video IC chip that had 2 pins not in the socket.
I reinserted it, and did get a prompt but just for a few moments.
So decieded to reinserted all the IC's. I powered it up again..
And there is was 8 MB RAM and the beautiful Commodore
Basic prompt..
Typed in a small BASIC program and it worked just fine.
The Chicklet keyboard has several keys that are hard to get to
work, I must press some of them several times to work..
Anyone have any ideas on how to clean them.
Have not tested the built in cassette yet..
I am very excited to add this great machine to my collection.
In 1978 I Lusted for the first time for a computer, and it was
this machine. But in 1978 no way could I afford to buy one..
Phil...










From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au  Wed Dec 23 19:44:43 1998
From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Commodore Pet 2001
Message-ID: <01be2ede$fa9f16a0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Clayton 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Thursday, 24 December 1998 11:54
Subject: Commodore Pet 2001


>Well I finally got an original Commodore Pet 2001

Nice find, they are getting rare.

>8MB RAM


Ahem, do you mean 8K RAM?

Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie
South Australia.
netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au




From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Dec 23 21:40:12 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: vaugue musings...
In-Reply-To: 
References: <368109FE.B95336AF@cnct.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981223214012.2daf4fb6@intellistar.net>

At 07:08 PM 12/23/98 +0000, you wrote:
>[Disassembling a kit]
>> Un-etching a board is a challenge I would not accept.
>
>Did/do US kits come with unetched boards, then? 


  No.  My Altair was a kit and has etched boards.

   Joe



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 23 19:33:10 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Commodore Pet 2001
In-Reply-To: <3680E446.5452833F@sprintmail.com> from "Phil Clayton" at Dec 23, 98 07:38:31 am
Message-ID: 

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From gram at cnct.com  Wed Dec 23 20:13:32 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Commodore Pet 2001
References: <199812232335.QAA25761@calico.litterbox.com> <3680E446.5452833F@sprintmail.com>
Message-ID: <3681A34C.39DA9E04@cnct.com>

Phil Clayton wrote:
> 
> I have been searching the internet for 6 months now for a
> Commodore Pet ..
> Well I finally got an original Commodore Pet 2001 8MB RAM

Methinks there's an incorrect letter there.  It changes things
by three orders of magnitude.  If a Pet held that much RAM I'd
have swallowed my distaste for the 6502 and gone for that
instead of the TRS-80.

> Purchased this fine computer from an individual for $230.00
> knowing that it did not work.

-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From Innfogra at aol.com  Wed Dec 23 20:13:34 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Commodore Pet 2001
Message-ID: <8258ddad.3681a34e@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/23/98 4:22:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
handyman@sprintmail.com writes:

> The Chicklet keyboard has several keys that are hard to get to
>  work, I must press some of them several times to work..
>  Anyone have any ideas on how to clean them.

Some of the people who clean keyboards for a living use Ultrasonic cleaners.
Years ago I got a sample of a cleaner that you mixed with water that was
formulated for ultrasonic keyboard cleaning. You also need an Ultrasonic
cleaner that you can submerge a keyboard in. Unfortunately I don't have the
name of the company anymore.
Paxton


From handyman at sprintmail.com  Wed Dec 23 09:14:54 1998
From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Commodore Pet 2001
References: 
Message-ID: <368108EE.F283E84F@sprintmail.com>

Tony Duell wrote:

> It's worth replacing all the IC sockets on old PETs. I've had problems
> caused by them.

Yes that may be worth doing on some sockets, some are very loose fitiing.

> You can dismantle the keyboard by undoing the obvious screws on the back.
> It helps to take the entire keyboard out of the PET first. Then clean the
> PCB contacts with propan-2-ol. You can try gently cleaning the conductive
> rubber pads on the ends of the keys, but be careful as it's easy to
> totally remove the conductive coating.
> -tony

What about just spraying some TV tuner cleaner from Radio shack on the
contacts,
who that help ?

Phil...



From handyman at sprintmail.com  Wed Dec 23 09:15:42 1998
From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Commodore Pet 2001
References: <199812232335.QAA25761@calico.litterbox.com> <3680E446.5452833F@sprintmail.com> <3681A34C.39DA9E04@cnct.com>
Message-ID: <3681091E.F1F66C5@sprintmail.com>

> > Well I finally got an original Commodore Pet 2001 8MB RAM
>
>  If a Pet held that much RAM I'd
> have swallowed my distaste for the 6502 and gone for that
> instead of the TRS-80.
>

HeHe!! You are right about the memory.. 8KB should be the correct
memory.. HeHe!!
I'm so used to typing MB after RAM statements, its routine..
Besides in 1978 who would have needed more than 8KB RAM
anyway.. 

I will try removing the keyboard unit and clean the contacts,
actually after I have typed on it for awhile it seems to be improving..
Its been sitting for years untouched.
So the Kybd definitely needs a good cleaning..

Phil..




From cfandt at netsync.net  Wed Dec 23 21:35:02 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Help fill in the blanks...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981223101941.0073e600@agora.rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981223204233.00ab3460@206.231.8.2>

At 10:19 12/23/98 -0800, you wrote:
>I've finally gotten round to putting a page up with the pictures that I
>shot at the Moffitt Field Historical Computer Collection "Visible Storage"
>facility during VCF II, but have spaced a bit on the identities of some of
>the artifacts.
>
>The page is not quite ready for public consumption yet, as it is still
>missing various titles and it should be a bit better organized...  But, if
>anyone would like to take a look, and perhaps assist with identifying the
>units without titles, you can access the page at:
>
>http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw/jcgm-mfhcc.html

Sixth row down, first image on left (the 34589_23.JPG) looks like some sort
of high vacuum processing equipment. Early Ion Beam Implanter? Early RF
etch system? Simple diffusion furnace? Hard to tell without being there. I
can't tell the manufacturer since the side panels are off and front panel
is not in view (could be even a one-off experimental or lab unit) but I can
easily identify a 4" oil diffusion pump -probably from CVC Products judging
from the blue-green color and shape (cylindrical thing with the ribbed
appearance in middle just below upper deck), a 2" oil diff. pump at far
right of upper deck (CVC again?)  plus a Welch mechanical pump in lower
left of rack. Power supplies are the objects in lower right of rack. Other
components and sections are somewhat identifiable by me too. 

Anyway, this item is on topic for both the museum and ClassicCmp as it
could likely have been used in a semiconductor fab facility. It could have
lived its life as an R&D tool in early IC, uP or transistor development or
in manufacturing early IC's. I determine the age, from the components and
construction style, is from very late 60's to maybe as late as late '70's.
The museum should have gotten a history of this machine from the donor. Any
one of the many older Silicon Valley IC manufacturers could have donated
this. Could be an important pioneering development machine (first Intel
4004 uP built using it for example) or just a regular old, normal workaday
machine.

Eleventh row down, second image in (the 34591_10.JPG) is a darned
interesting mechanical device driven by a capacitor-start motor. Just look
at the size of those huge bolts holding the two header plates and the
innards together! Looks like a placard sets in top of the plexiglas top
cover. Too bad you didn't shoot a closeup foto of it to help describe this
thing.

Fourteenth row down, first image on left (34591_22.JPG) is unidentifiable
to me as a specific machine but there are two large Lambda DC power
supplies -two in the bottom of the right-hand rack and one toward the
bottom of the left. They have a dark grey painted area on a clear anodized
aluminum 5 1/4" panel. Detail is not too good for me to pick out any other
components. Could it be a piece of in-plant test equipment that some
company made of which one or more of those rack components is a computer? 

Twentieth row down, far right image (34593_13.JPG) I don't know what the
machine is but there are two Friden paper tape devices built-into the
thing. They are the lighter grey rectangular objects; the left one may be a
punch but I know the right-hand one is a reader as I have one somewhere
around here.

That's all the input I feel I can give Jim. This was fun! I wish I had some
of those old classics in my collection. Also, seeing those IBM card punches
brought back memories :) Actually, I wish I could spend a week alone just
poking through that museum studying the details of each machine. 

Thanks for the tour,  
--Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/


From Watzman at ibm.net  Wed Dec 23 21:46:59 1998
From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: Seattle CPU Support card wanted
Message-ID: <000701be2ef0$1fbf1dc0$e6bb6420@barrysp2>

I'm looking for a Seattle Computer Products CPU Support card.  It's an S-100 card with various mixed functions on it.  If anyone has one or knows where I can find one, please let me know.

Barry Watzman
Watzman@ibm.net

-------------- next part --------------
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From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Wed Dec 23 22:03:29 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: OT: Online auctins an institution?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19981222191218.734776c8@ricochet.net>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Uncle Roger wrote:

> (Oh, okay I will -- I'll stipulate that Woz may have been in it for fun,
> but Jobs was/is definitely in it for the money.)

Apple had more a chance of becoming the Apple that transpired with Jobs
than with Wozniak.  In fact, Woz would have probably not been known
outside his hobbyist circles had it not been for Jobs.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing but the deepest respect for Woz.  But
it takes one type to make and one type to sell.  Jobs & Wozniak were near
perfect complements of each other.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Wed Dec 23 22:07:52 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: blue-planet downtime explanation
Message-ID: 


TWIMC:

Here's an explanation as to what happened to the blue-planet hard drive
page.


Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 19:40:52 -0800
From: Shawn Butler 
To: Sam Ismail 
Subject: Re: Trouble accessing your site

Thank you for your inquiry:

The site was down for over two days and is now back up!!!!
The DNS IP address changed, and until all the DNS servers
out there cached the new IP, they were accessing the
wrong server.

All the information on The Tech Page is free, and will never
require special passwords for access.

Sorry for the down time!
Blue Planet
b-planet@ix.netcom.com


Sam Ismail wrote:

> I seem to be having trouble trying to connect to your hard drive page.
> When I enter in the URL
>
>    http://www.blue-planet.com/tech/no_frames.html
>
> I get a login window.  I hit cancel and then get some noise about how I'm
> not authorized to access the page.  Other people I know are experiecing
> the same problem, but still others are not and can get into the site fine.
> Can you shed some light on this?  Thanks.
>
> Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Always being hassled by the man.
>
>                   Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
>                    See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
>                         [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Wed Dec 23 22:14:00 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: what is this? motorola alphamate
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:

> On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > picked this up the other day. its a small unit comprising a relatively full
> > size keyboard and a 3x40 line lcd display. machine also has connections for
> > rs232, telephone, and din plugs for modem and printer. machine can also run on
> > batteries or ac power. is this a TDD? might be worth something if it is. 
> 
> I tried to buy a lot of those once.  I thought they were portable
> terminals, but they turn out to be "portable paging entry terminals" used
> to send pages to pagers, I assume.

Yes.  There's a pretty standard protocol for alphapagers.  You call the
dialup number at 1200,8,N,1.  It asks for something (I forget
now...COMMAND? maybe?) then you hit M (for message I guess) then it asks
ID= and you enter the 10 digit pager number.  Then you enter the message.
It will then be sent out to the alpha pager.

Ok, so I totally forgot the protocol, the above is half-assed remembrance
from when I was experimenting with it.  But anyway, you don't need one of
these terminals to send messages to alpha pagers.  You can do it with any
computer and modem.  The terminal is just to make it easy for office
clerks or what not to send out pages to field service personnel or
whatever.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Wed Dec 23 22:55:10 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:29 2005
Subject: NOW OT: Re: Actually On-Topic: Art Bell's Webcam...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981223001953.00950100@mail.30below.com>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Roger Merchberger wrote:

> Uh, oh, you said *who* not *where*. Sorry. (Dyslexia). He's an all-night
> radio host who opens his show to a whole bunch of weirdos about "when man
> emigrated from Mars to the Earth" and "I just invented a drug that will
> allow Man to live forever" and other really weird shit like that. He's
> actually a little more conservetive than the psycho's that call on his
> show, but he's still fairly "out there." He's got quite the cult following
> all across the country, and currently has the "most listened to all-nite
> radio talk show" in the US, possibly the world. (dunno if any xlations
> exist for his show.)

Didn't Art Bell just go off the air for some reason shrouded in mystery
recently?  Is he now back on again or something?

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Wed Dec 23 23:09:51 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: Back on the List
In-Reply-To: <199812231238.MAA23803@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Hans Franke wrote:

> > > Welcome back tim
> > > Have you been looking around for computers in Guyana? Anything interesting?
> 
> > Looking? Yeah... all over... but in a country where a XT's a status 
> > item... I haven't been very successful. I was able to get a complete 
> > XT system with tons of unopened software, manuals, etc. (As well 
> > as a brand-new IBM ProPrinter I) from the person right below the 
> > Ambadassor at the Embassy here.  Of course, the XT's no biggie, 
> > but the naunals, etc. are. 
> 
> No Homecomputers or obscure pre PC stuff ?

Not to be a presumptuously snobbish American or anything but in Guyana?

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Wed Dec 23 23:12:30 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: vaugue musings...
In-Reply-To: <01be2e74$a226fa20$fbc962cf@devlaptop>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Mike wrote:

> Not having an assembly manual for any of the early 8bit kits (altair, imsai,
> etc...)  I was wondering about the experiences/success of anyone
> DISassembling one *back* to kit form.  Anybody?

I've taken an IMSAI apart for cleaning.  This included disassembly of the
front panel and power supply.  It was pretty simple.  Going further, to
take it back to original kit form would require desoldering components
from the PCBs.

You aren't planning a "RARE! ORIGINAL ALTAIR KIT!" sale on eBay now are
you? :)

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From zmerch at 30below.com  Wed Dec 23 23:29:53 1998
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: On-Topic Internet Request...
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812231238.MAA23803@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981224002953.00948e80@mail.30below.com>

This is a request for information as an Internet professional, but it *is*
on topic...

I've met a family who would like to get on the Internet to mainly do email
- but all they have is an Apple 2 GS. Other than a shell account (these
folks seem to be "stick in disk, run command written on disk, scratch
head...) is there, say, a pop3 email client and IP stack software available
for that beast?

(Sorry - not much of an Apple byter - I'm a Radio Smacker myself...)

Thanks for any and all help, and Happy Holidaze!

Roger "Merch" Merchberger
=====
Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com
SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers
=====  Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment:  =====
for (1..15) { print "Merry Christmas\n"; }
(from perl.1 man page, version 4.)


From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Wed Dec 23 23:39:29 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: On-Topic Internet Request...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981224002953.00948e80@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Dec 24, 1998 12:29:53 AM
Message-ID: <199812240539.WAA27214@calico.litterbox.com>

> I've met a family who would like to get on the Internet to mainly do email
> - but all they have is an Apple 2 GS. Other than a shell account (these
> folks seem to be "stick in disk, run command written on disk, scratch
> head...) is there, say, a pop3 email client and IP stack software available
> for that beast?
> 

Well, sort of.

To run any modern GS software, you need at least 4 megs of RAM and a hard disk.
These things you can get at alltech - www.allelec.com, and if you buy the disk
from them you even get GSOS 6.0.1, which is the most current version of the OS.
Which you will need.

There is an IP stack for it that you can download from the net.  Look for 
marinetti 2.0.  It does SLIP and PPP at up to 56kbps.  Realistically, without
an accelerator you won't get much past 33kbps.

There is good terminal software that runs with marinetti called Spectrum 2.2.
You can get this from http://www.sevenhills.com/applesoftware/ .  It includes
a copy of Marinetti.  It does telnet and good terminal emulation.

There is a web browser that runs as a plugin for spectrum... *BUT* it's not
shipping yet.  *sigh*  I've got two people with GSs (not to mention my own)
who are waiting for this.  The browser is supposedly pretty slow without an
accelerator, but it goes.  No graphics though - the GS doesn't have the 
processor power or ram to decode jpgs in a rational amount of time.

Oh yeah.  One other thing.  the GS in question needs to be at least a ROM01.
It will tell you the rom version when you power it up.  If it doesn't, it's a 
rom 0, and you'll need to go back to alltech and talk to them on the phone and
hopefully get a copy of the upgrade roms from them.

-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec 23 11:20:46 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: vaugue musings...
In-Reply-To: <36811774.7346904B@cnct.com>
Message-ID: <199812231621.QAA17559@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > > > > Not having an assembly manual for any of the early 8bit kits (altair, imsai,
> > > > > etc...)  I was wondering about the experiences/success of anyone
> > > > > DISassembling one *back* to kit form.  Anybody?

> > > > You cannot be serious about that.  The soldering and board etches are not
> > > > always the best quality and desoldering all them holes is a major task
> > > > never mind the potential of cooking a soldered in componenet..

> > > > I've built three altairs (8800A or earlier) and they were not fun to
> > > > assemble but it saved a bundle.

> > > Un-etching a board is a challenge I would not accept.

> > Un-etching?
> > For unsoldering if this is what its about, [...]

> No, un-etching was the term I used.  Kits used to start with a
> sheet of material coated with copper and (usually you applied it
> yourself) wax.  You scraped off wax where you didn't want the
> traces to be, then you dipped it in acid to remove the bare
> copper.  You'd find out quickly whether you'd applied or scraped
> the wax properly.  Un-etching would imply putting the copper back
> on the board to return the kit to its virgin condition.

Jep, this was also what cames to my mind, but 'un-etching' is
... lets say nonsense ! Or had the kids only to-be-etched Boards ?
I guess he only thought about puting them back to components.

> Stripping components from a board is easy.  I was doing that
> before Clinton seduced his first cheerleader in high school.

You mean Hilary ? :))
(I still can't get all this Clinton stuff - You (Americanos)
must live on the happiest place of this world, if you have
the time to go for this zipper thing ...)

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec 23 14:31:49 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: Price of a Lisa 2?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981223130523.00ec1450@pc>
References: <36813C35.9EE38FEC@cnct.com>
Message-ID: <199812231932.TAA25831@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> >Then you probably sunk at least 25% in "conversion factor".  That is
> >often invisible unless you watch the markets.  (I don't mostly, it's
> >speculating between the "values" of fiat moneys trying to predict
> >what the governments will do with or to each other).

> My experience is with receiving these as payment from overseas
> customers.  Customers being what they are, they'd complain about
> the least little thing - but I don't remember any complaints
> about conversion rates.  I did hear about high wire-transfer fees
> and often had pleas to put false values on customs forms...

Maybe cecause accepting conversation rates is just usual (as
long as they stay within a acceptable amount), But wire fees
are realy enourmous - for example, if I want to use Western
Union transfer I pay a basic fee of about 30 USD _plus_ an
additional fee based on the amount. And for the value - I
can't see any reason to put a high value on any _private_
_second_hand_ sale to risk paying custom fees. Althrough there
is no more an additional tax for computers (they dropped it
about a year ago) or computer parts (remember wehn sending a
PC radio card - it's a computer part, not a radio) you still
have to pay 16% VAT of the value on the form if it is above
a certain limit. The officers have to decide if they let it
go as private package (gift etc.) and let it pass, or apply
the strict business rules. So it might be usefull to talk -
and if there is a 'personal' letter inside, it helps a lot.

I don't like to pay senseless tax - especialy when the way
these taxes are given is not consistent - If s.o. buyes. lets
say a Picasso painting for several millions he wont pay a
single Pfennig ...

Transport, Transfer and Tax (TTT :) is a mayor problem for
buying stuff for the collection from oversees.

Gruss
H.

P.S.: This is not about tax evadeing in General - I have no
      problem in paying when I just import anything for business

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec 23 11:40:25 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: Ways of Payment (was: Price of a Lisa 2?)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981223102058.00f20ec0@pc>
References: <199812231602.QAA16172@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <199812231641.QAA18564@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> >THe cheapest (at least from an european perspective) is still
> >a direct account to account transfer (and the method of coice
> >over here ).

> Huh?  That costs about $20 over here.  The post office only
> charges a few bucks to do it.

Within Germany they are free (true for most private accounts,
sometime restrictet to 100 or so sending (!) transfers per month)
or only covered by a _very_ small charge like 0.3 or 0.6 USD and
within Europe, depending on your bank and your account type, but
generaly only a _very_ low fee). And if there is a fee, it's
only for sending, never for reciving (with an exception of an
automatic withdraw from your account - like for membership fees -
where the reciving party is paying for the service).

In fact, I'm always astonished about the fact that cheques,
are still a common thing in the US to do regular payments,
like rent, car loan, or what ever - I have seen the last
personal cheque (with an exception of the Eurocheque) over
25 years ago - almost anything is done via bank orders.

I had to learn a lot of new facts about money transfer over
the past year for my classic computer deals. For example,
there are bank institutes in the US that tell their people
they don't know about a SWIFT number, or don't use them ...
Gee - almost like a forgotten island in the international
money world (no, not the UK - the Brits may be conservative,
but they are not that stupid :). SWIFT is the international
transfer system - thats the way how people like Soros shift
billions of dollars within minutes around the world (and
send whole countries to doom) - nobody carries boxes of bucks
around the world since more than 30 years, and it is (if you
pay a fee) open to everyone you could transfer 10 cent or 10
millions within some seconds - to be honest, for 'normal'
people like us, it still takes two working days until you
get a response.

Gruss
H.


--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Dec 23 11:23:01 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <199812231624.QAA17716@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > > I've no idea how Win95 _works_ with 4MB RAM, since it doesn't _work_
> > > with 16MB -- though with 16MB it boots within a few minutes.  I took
> 
> >  I agree here, too.  Windows 95 really won't like a 486/20.  Sure, in 

> my girlfriend runs Win95 on a 386/20 Dell laptop.  a little slow, but actually
> not that bad.  oh, 4M of ram.  the slowest thing is printing.

I always belived 95 wasn't running on pre-486SX processors
(I have to admit that I never tried).

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Thu Dec 24 01:53:30 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: vaugue musings...
In-Reply-To: <199812231621.QAA17559@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 23, 1998 05:21:46 PM
Message-ID: <199812240753.AAA27741@calico.litterbox.com>

*snip*
> (I still can't get all this Clinton stuff - You (Americanos)
> must live on the happiest place of this world, if you have
> the time to go for this zipper thing ...)
> 
> Gruss
> H.
*snip*

Beautifully said. :)  

-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
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Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Thu Dec 24 01:57:34 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <199812231624.QAA17716@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Dec 23, 1998 05:24:01 PM
Message-ID: <199812240757.AAA27767@calico.litterbox.com>

> I always belived 95 wasn't running on pre-486SX processors
> (I have to admit that I never tried).
> 
> Gruss
> H.
> 
Supposedly it will run on anything down to a 386sx with 4 megs of ram.
Won't do anything *useful*, but that argument can be made on a pentium2 with
32 megs too. :)  

Note that that was the original august of 1995 release of win95 that would
supposedly run in the 386sx/4mb.   Later ones admit they want at least 8 megs
of ram.  I sometimes wish I still had my old 386sx/33 motherboard to try it on.

-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
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Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
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From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au  Thu Dec 24 03:13:59 1998
From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: vaugue musings...
Message-ID: <01be2f1d$bd9d1ce0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Strickland 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Thursday, 24 December 1998 19:25
Subject: Re: vaugue musings...


>*snip*
>> (I still can't get all this Clinton stuff - You (Americanos)
>> must live on the happiest place of this world, if you have
>> the time to go for this zipper thing ...)
>>
>> Gruss
>> H.
>*snip*
>
>Beautifully said. :)


Most Aussies feel the same way.  Not many here care if he
got a head job from some dame at work.   Or more than a
head job.   It's a personal matter.
This whole thing is a media driven circus.
I think it's backfired on those that thought they had the most to
gain from it, his popularity is very high despite (or in spite - who knows)
of the circus.
The majority of US voteres seem to think he's a good president.
Nothing else really matters.
Aussies and Brits generally assume that pollys are getting a
bit on the side here and there.  But no-one really cares anymore.
His biggest mistake was responding to this type of question.
Refusing to even comment on personal matters would
be the sensible approach.

Just my 2c worth.

Merry Christmas All
It's after 7:30pm Xmas Eve, and it's 36C.
Seeya

Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie
South Australia.
netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au



From dogas at leading.net  Thu Dec 24 07:28:38 1998
From: dogas at leading.net (Mike)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: vaugue musings...
Message-ID: <01be2f41$509256a0$c8c962cf@devlaptop>

Thanks for all the responses.  Hans, thanks for the description of your
technique.  I'm now in seeker mode for the superhairdryer at yonder
fleamarket.  No, I'm not planning on an eBay kit sale...  But unlike Allison
three times over, I haven't had a chance to build one (I dont even have an
altair yet, but I do have a few imsais)... and the zenness of seeing one
apart is alluring.

Let me be the first to wish you all a Merry Christmas....  for next  year.
Heh

Mike: dogas@leading.net




From tim at thereviewguide.com  Thu Dec 24 07:38:40 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <007e01be2ebc$4a388520$e5021a26@maxeskin>
Message-ID: <199812241338.FAA02736@geocities.com>

> A _little_? How many minutes does it take to boot? I have tried booting a
> 486sx/20 with 4 MB RAM from a  premade Win95 setup, and it took a looong
> time! I started and finished a major meal and it still wasn't done.
> >my girlfriend runs Win95 on a 386/20 Dell laptop.  a little slow, but
> actually
> >not that bad.  oh, 4M of ram.  the slowest thing is printing.

I agree.  I've got a friend who tried their 386 with Windows 95... he 
said it took him an hour and a half to open Word for Windows 95... 
then he gave up... and it even had 15MB RAM!

Tim



From tim at thereviewguide.com  Thu Dec 24 07:38:40 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: Back on the List
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812231238.MAA23803@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <199812241339.FAA02802@geocities.com>

> Not to be a presumptuously snobbish American or anything but in Guyana?

Yeah... it's kind of strange.  It looks like it used to be a pretty nice 
place, say around 1950 or so, when it was British owned.  Beautiful 
streets lined with canals, very spacious.  It was like a town, very 
well-laid out.  Beautiful wooden buildings, and of course, a full 
British infrastructure.  Now... as you probably can guess, under a 
communist leader who didn't allow flour to be imported for 17 years, 
it's started to crumble.  And you know what happens to beautiful 
wooden buildings when you're in a country with hundreds of trillions 
of termintes...

To be back on topic (well, sort of) there's no real computers here.  
Just a whole bunch of PC's... and all the ones paritally classic, 
(mostly old PC's, usually 16-bit era), are still being used and 
viciously guarded.

The power here's also amazingly strange: 110v (which is good, 
after spending 4 years in a 220v country with all 110v equipment), 
but 50hz.  Sure, I've heard of 110v 60hz, and 220v 50hz... but not a 
mixture.  

I can get my Apple IIc to boot fine with local power (or when we're 
running off of 110v 60hz generator power), but my II+ isn't as lucky. 
 Any reason why this wouldn't work?

Tim


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 24 08:34:45 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: Back on the List
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812231238.MAA23803@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
Message-ID: <199812241339.NAA13040@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > > > Welcome back tim
> > > > Have you been looking around for computers in Guyana? Anything interesting?
> > > Looking? Yeah... all over... but in a country where a XT's a status 
> > > item... I haven't been very successful. I was able to get a complete 
> > > XT system with tons of unopened software, manuals, etc. (As well 
> > > as a brand-new IBM ProPrinter I) from the person right below the 
> > > Ambadassor at the Embassy here.  Of course, the XT's no biggie, 
> > > but the naunals, etc. are. 

> > No Homecomputers or obscure pre PC stuff ?

> Not to be a presumptuously snobbish American or anything but in Guyana?

:) Shure, exactly in Guyana. I found that the percentage of
unusual computers rise linear with the 'unusuality' of the
place you are looking. Of course, the total number of computers
available is falling rapidly, but if there is one, the chance
of not beeing a 08/15 type computer is quite high. I made up
three possible reasons. First if somone in such a place buyes
a computer he is a) weathy and b) educated - already unusual.
Such people tend to go for rather individual choises. Second
to buy a computer in this environment isn't a decision made
between two hot dogs - they are collecting facts to buy the
right one (like most of us did in the 70s) - ok, this attitude
is fading like it did in the US and Europe during the 80s, but
only recently - maybe also forced due the missing of low to
mid class alternatives to the Wintel PC. Third the lifetime /
time of use is a lot longer due missing replacement. Computer
sales in this countries are still rising the numbers of installes
systems, while we (Euro and US) have already reached a level
where replacement is part of the market. If a computer is to
be replaced lets say in India or Romania, the old one will be
used again, istead of beeing scraped - for shure!

I don't know about the far east, arab or south american
situation, but in the east the PC took only over _very_
recently (1995/96...). In Russia, a C64 or an Amiga or
Atari XL ist still a valuable home computer - shure, they
won't get the price like a few years aga, since the Taiwan
PCs give an upper limit, but people are still looking to
get them. And in Africa it's almost the same (You still
can find French and Britisch homecomputers).

Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 24 08:34:45 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: On-Topic Internet Request...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981224002953.00948e80@mail.30below.com>
References: 
Message-ID: <199812241339.NAA13043@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> I've met a family who would like to get on the Internet to mainly do email
> - but all they have is an Apple 2 GS. Other than a shell account (these
> folks seem to be "stick in disk, run command written on disk, scratch
> head...) is there, say, a pop3 email client and IP stack software available
> for that beast?

There is a SLIP stack, and mailing soft, but since this has
never been greatly incooperated into the OS, everythin has
to go togeter. Try a search for marinetti - thats a telnet
with his own stack (can also be used with som other packages).

But I think, if you could give them a unix account with
Lynx and Pine and a way to download anything should go
well - maybe using marinetti. There is also, a suit with
several apps in development, I don't remember the name,
but I guess if its graphical it needs transwarp or some
other speed up.

Gruss
H.


--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 24 08:46:54 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <199812241338.FAA02736@geocities.com>
References: <007e01be2ebc$4a388520$e5021a26@maxeskin>
Message-ID: <199812241352.NAA13545@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

> > A _little_? How many minutes does it take to boot? I have tried booting a
> > 486sx/20 with 4 MB RAM from a  premade Win95 setup, and it took a looong
> > time! I started and finished a major meal and it still wasn't done.
> > >my girlfriend runs Win95 on a 386/20 Dell laptop.  a little slow, but
> > actually
> > >not that bad.  oh, 4M of ram.  the slowest thing is printing.

> I agree.  I've got a friend who tried their 386 with Windows 95... he 
> said it took him an hour and a half to open Word for Windows 95... 
> then he gave up... and it even had 15MB RAM!

For all who don't remember the difference (Memory ?
whats that ?), try it yourself _in_you_used_ working
environment, just put your socket 7 board to the lowest
possible multiplicator and, if possible, the bus speed
down to the lowest possible speed) - and just see - I
was forced to try this last week because of an temperature
problem - I put a 233 K6 down to 100 MHz (multiplier x2,
bus clock 50 MHz) - and it was awfull to start any
applicaton And that was still the same computer -
just only around half the speed. Word took something
like 30 seconds to open ... It is amazing, how fast
we forget, or maybe only how easy we accept some speed
gain as given and still rant how slow it is.

Gruss
H.
P.S.: For network services I still depend on two 486-133
computers since years, and they asre still fast enough :)

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 24 09:42:50 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: vaugue musings...
In-Reply-To: <01be2f1d$bd9d1ce0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>
Message-ID: <199812241447.OAA15817@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> Merry Christmas All
> It's after 7:30pm Xmas Eve, and it's 36C.
> Seeya

If it wasn't for Christmas, I'll hate you for teasing us
with this ridicoulus temperatures while we have -3C :)

Anyway, Fröhliche Weihnacht to all of you.

Servus
Hans
(Going for my mother to part in Christmas dinner, off until Monday)

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From KFergason at aol.com  Thu Dec 24 09:11:50 1998
From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <9a74b2ce.368259b6@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/24/98 5:40:04 AM Pacific Standard Time,
tim@thereviewguide.com writes:

> > >my girlfriend runs Win95 on a 386/20 Dell laptop.  a little slow, but
>  > actually
>  > >not that bad.  oh, 4M of ram.  the slowest thing is printing.
>  
>  I agree.  I've got a friend who tried their 386 with Windows 95... he 
>  said it took him an hour and a half to open Word for Windows 95... 
>  then he gave up... and it even had 15MB RAM!
>  
my girlfriend uses Excel mostly, but also Word.  takes about 5-8 minutes to
come up.  printing a 20 page document, now thats a hour long task.

kelly


From fauradon at pclink.com  Thu Dec 24 09:26:22 1998
From: fauradon at pclink.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois_Auradon?=)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: vaugue musings...
Message-ID: <000c01be2f51$c3fae9d0$db6e0181@fauradon1.beckman.com>

you think -3C is bad... Come and try our -15C to -20C here in the great
Minnesota...

-----Original Message-----
From: Hans Franke 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Thursday, December 24, 1998 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: vaugue musings...


>
>> Merry Christmas All
>> It's after 7:30pm Xmas Eve, and it's 36C.
>> Seeya
>
>If it wasn't for Christmas, I'll hate you for teasing us
>with this ridicoulus temperatures while we have -3C :)
>
>Anyway, Fr?hliche Weihnacht to all of you.
>
>Servus
>Hans
>(Going for my mother to part in Christmas dinner, off until Monday)
>
>--
>Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
>HRK
>



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Dec 24 10:31:44 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: vaugue musings...
In-Reply-To: <000c01be2f51$c3fae9d0$db6e0181@fauradon1.beckman.com>
Message-ID: <199812241536.PAA17632@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>

Date sent:      	Thu, 24 Dec 1998 09:26:22 -0600
Send reply to:  	classiccmp@u.washington.edu
From:           	"François Auradon" 
To:             	"Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
Subject:        	Re: vaugue musings...
Originally to:  	

> you think -3C is bad... Come and try our -15C to -20C here in the great
> Minnesota...

Minus 15 C right now ? thats lower than in Sibira !
Thats around ZERO Farnheit (isn't it ?)
Brrrrr.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From allisonp at world.std.com  Thu Dec 24 10:16:23 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <199812241616.AA16410@world.std.com>

<> I agree.  I've got a friend who tried their 386 with Windows 95... he 
<> said it took him an hour and a half to open Word for Windows 95... 
<> then he gave up... and it even had 15MB RAM!

I don't.

I ran w95 on a 386dx/40 with cache 16mb ram and a 1.2gig partitioned as
a pair of disks just last week and a backup for a croaked pentium board.  
It was slow but not hours.  It was also running office97 as that was on 
the drive too.  A 486DX2/50 was much better.

I did however do some major tuning tricks on the cmos and things like 
windows swap drive.  Some of those old boards if you take the cmos defaults 
you get a very pokey system often 1/3 the performance or worse.

Allison



From pechter at monmouth.com  Thu Dec 24 10:45:19 1998
From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <199812241616.AA16410@world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Dec 24, 98 11:16:23 am"
Message-ID: <199812241645.LAA02673@monmouth.com>

> <> I agree.  I've got a friend who tried their 386 with Windows 95... he 
> <> said it took him an hour and a half to open Word for Windows 95... 
> <> then he gave up... and it even had 15MB RAM!
> 
> I don't.
> 
> I ran w95 on a 386dx/40 with cache 16mb ram and a 1.2gig partitioned as
> a pair of disks just last week and a backup for a croaked pentium board.  
> It was slow but not hours.  It was also running office97 as that was on 
> the drive too.  A 486DX2/50 was much better.
> 
> I did however do some major tuning tricks on the cmos and things like 
> windows swap drive.  Some of those old boards if you take the cmos defaults 
> you get a very pokey system often 1/3 the performance or worse.
> 
> Allison
> 

The biggest thing you mention is CACHE.  Try it on a 386 without cache.
I'm amazed how much cache improves the performance of a 486 or Pentium.
I ran a Cyrix 586/133 without internal and external cache and it ran 
Unix slower than a 386SX/25.

I shouldn't be surprised at this, since the speedup was noticeable even
with PDP 11/34A's... which had a small but effective optional cache.

Memory bandwidth is important.


The PDP 11/70's cache made it impressive -- but the direct Massbus data 
path to memory was probably more important in it's performance over
the 11/45 and 11/55. 

If I remember correctly:
The 11/70's Unibus performance was less than spectacular and it even
was out performed by some other 11's in that area.

Bill


From marvin at rain.org  Thu Dec 24 11:08:00 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: OT Re: vaugue musings...
References: <01be2f1d$bd9d1ce0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>
Message-ID: <368274F0.24E171CC@rain.org>

Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote:
> 
> >> (I still can't get all this Clinton stuff - You (Americanos)
> >> must live on the happiest place of this world, if you have
> >> the time to go for this zipper thing ...)
> 
> His biggest mistake was responding to this type of question.
> Refusing to even comment on personal matters would
> be the sensible approach.

The problem was *lying* to the wrong people among other things. Being
perceived as a "good" president does not mean he is one.  And I fully agree
that the questions he lied to probably should not have been asked.


From tim at thereviewguide.com  Thu Dec 24 11:32:34 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: vaugue musings...
In-Reply-To: <199812241447.OAA15817@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
References: <01be2f1d$bd9d1ce0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>
Message-ID: <199812241732.JAA17115@geocities.com>

> > It's after 7:30pm Xmas Eve, and it's 36C.

Same thing here.  At least in Bahrain, it cooled down from 45-50c 
(or more, depending, with humidity), to around 10c or so. Here, it's 
30-35c ALL YEAR!

> If it wasn't for Christmas, I'll hate you for teasing us
> with this ridicoulus temperatures while we have -3C :)

I haven't been cold when I was outside since 1993.   

Tim


From Watzman at ibm.net  Thu Dec 24 11:40:13 1998
From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: Unassembling kits
Message-ID: <000001be2f64$98b3ae20$ebbb6420@barrysp2>

I feel like I've been "unassembling" items back into the original kits.

I have recently acquired a variety of old S-100 stuff, very dirty and mostly not working.  I spent a lot of time cleaning up an IMSAI, it was really dirty. I disassembled it completely, even removed the motherboard. Cleaned everything completely with flux remover and solvents, and reassembled. Did some troubleshooting and some parts replacement, and have obtained some additional boards from various other people. It now boots CP/M, but only in a very limited way (e.g. it?s a crude BIOS, single drive and console I/O only, minimal, but it works).

I took two Cromemco Z-80 CPU cards, neither working, and removed all of the IC sockets from the boards, then rebuilt the boards with all new sockets and all-new IC?s (I seriously considered soldering the IC?s, but in the end I decided to use new sockets).

The old sockets had a bunch of green corrosion crud inside the contacts (they were TI sockets, which can be removed by prying off the plastic, leaving individual pins soldered to the board, which can then be removed one at a time). Removing the IC sockets was VERY difficult and VERY time consuming, and I did some minor damage to the board traces and pads. I had access to a vacuum desoldering unit at work, but I figured I would remove the sockets and pins first, and then just use the vacuum tool to clear the holes. BIG MISTAKE. The vacuum device works wonders for removing IC?s and IC sockets, but it does NOT do a good job at clearing empty holes. If I?d used it properly, the work would have gone better, with less damage to the boards, and would have taken half the time (e.g. about ten hours instead of about twenty). I know this because when I scrapped a Shugart SA-860 drive for parts, I removed the non-standard IC?s from it?s PC board before pitching it, and that went so much better than the work on the CPU cards.  The SA-860 was one of four, and now the other three all work.

However, all of that said, both Z-80 CPU boards are now working perfectly as far as I can tell. The system is booting and running at both 2MHz and 4 MHz, and even the front panel works at 4MHz.

I?ve built up an external dual-drive box with two 3.5" 1.44 Mb drives, and an adapter board that makes it connect to a 50-pin cable and look like two 8" drives. The next step will be to get this unit working, which will be quite a bit of work because of many, many software issues. Once I do, I want to transfer everything to 3.5" disks from 8" disks (I have about 500 8" disks full of sofware). This box has a connector on the back for 8" drives, so I can support 4 drives, two 3.5" and two 8".

I?m desperately looking for a Seattle Computer CPU support card, please let me know if you know of anyone who has one.

Barry Watzman

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From Watzman at ibm.net  Thu Dec 24 11:50:33 1998
From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: Unsoldering
Message-ID: <000701be2f65$f7399120$7ebb6420@barrysp2>

Boy, Hans, you are a better man than I am !

I've tried using a heat gun to unsolder things, and I can't get it to work.  Either the solder doesn't melt, or the board gets too hot an bad things happen (foils lift, board chars, etc.).  It sounds good in principle, and obviously its a matter of controlling the heat, but I have never been able to get this to work satisfactorily.

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From scott at saskatoon.com  Thu Dec 24 12:04:21 1998
From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: vaugue musings...
In-Reply-To: <000c01be2f51$c3fae9d0$db6e0181@fauradon1.beckman.com>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 24 Dec 1998, [iso-8859-1] François Auradon wrote:

>you think -3C is bad... Come and try our -15C to -20C here in the great
>Minnesota...

Aw, c'mon you wimps.  We've had -31C this week.  (It's warmed up to a
balmy -20 now.)

Merry Christmas from the Great White North.

ttfn
srw



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Thu Dec 24 12:06:54 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: OT: Re: vaugue musings...
In-Reply-To: <01be2f1d$bd9d1ce0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>
Message-ID: 


This is grossly off-topic but I just want to explain to our foreign
friends why Clinton should not be running our country.

On Thu, 24 Dec 1998, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote:

> Most Aussies feel the same way.  Not many here care if he
> got a head job from some dame at work.   Or more than a
> head job.   It's a personal matter.

Personal matter.  Sure.  Fine.  However, in the process of trying to cover
it up, he tried to mislead everyone, to the point of lying under oath.  

If anyone is supposed to be a role-model for all Americans, its the
President.  And if the President is demonstrating a lack of integrity and
a contempt for the law he is sworn to uphold by trying to circumvent it,
that sends a message to everyone in this country that its OK to be less
than honest, resulting in a further decay of our "culture".

To me, it sends another message that the government is indeed corrupt.  I
already knew this from watching Ronald Reagan when I was a teenager
repeatedly claim that he did not recall extremely high level discussions
regarding the transfer of arms to third world countries used to kill many
people paid for by money gotten from the sale of arms to a then hostile
nation (if he didn't remember then, he sure as hell doesn't remember
now...a fitting end).

I don't see what Clinton did as a small infraction at all.  I see it as
one more big crack in the infrastructure.  He would have shown far greater
character by just admitting it up front, and he would have taken away
whatever fuel his enemies had to impeach him.  As it is, he gave them just
what they wanted, further demonstrating what a fool he is.

> I think it's backfired on those that thought they had the most to
> gain from it, his popularity is very high despite (or in spite - who knows)
> of the circus.

That's not the point.  I think the intent was to permanently injure his
reputation, and his enemies succeeded.  He's the one who turned this into
a circus.  Impeachment was deserved.  If he wasn't such an idiot none of
his escapades would have ever come to light.

And don't think Hillary isn't off fucking some White House intern with a
tight young ass (or engaging in threesomes will Bill & Monica).  She's
known all along, and you'd be naive to think otherwise.

> The majority of US voteres seem to think he's a good president.
> Nothing else really matters.

The majority of US voters are ignorant buffoons.  Ignorance and apathy are
their guiding principles.  Americans have gotten used to expecting little
from their government and receiving less.  Those with intelligence have
more important things to tend to (like putting food on the table).  Those
lacking in intelligence miss the point entirely...they just don't
understand the issue and thus don't see what the problem is.

Anyway, please send all flames to private e-mail.

"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of
himself.  Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?" --
Thomas Jefferson.

"The people cannot delegate to government the power to do anything which
would be unlawful for them to do themselves." -- John Locke

"You knew the job was dangerous when you took it, Fred." -- SuperChicken

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com  Thu Dec 24 12:09:07 1998
From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: Other TEK weight availiable in Portland, Oregon
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981224100907.00975620@mail.bluefeathertech.com>

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From dburrows at netpath.net  Thu Dec 24 13:56:24 1998
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: vaugue musings...
Message-ID: <003a01be2f77$f25e42b0$bf281bce@p166>


> you think -3C is bad... Come and try our -15C to -20C here in the great
> Minnesota...

Minus 15 C right now ? thats lower than in Sibira !
Thats around ZERO Farnheit (isn't it ?)
Brrrrr.


And he is in Minneapolis.  I used to live near Duluth and remember a week
here and there of -30 F.  That is before the wind chill factor.  I
recall -85 and -90 wind chills.  Now I am in North Carolina in the middle of
an ice / freezing rain storm.  Just got power back after a tree dropped on
the line about 9:30 this morning.

Dan



From Innfogra at aol.com  Thu Dec 24 15:33:44 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: Other TEK weight availiable in Portland, Oregon
Message-ID: 

Yes, I maintain the InnfoGraphics warehouse. Jim Willing has been a good
customer and a valued source of advise. He has bought many systems over the
years, several SOL-20s, SWTP S-50, IMSAI, NS Advantage, his Vax750 and more. I
only wish he had told me of this list years ago.

I am closing out the warehouse very soon, hopefully January. I am getting
ready for a large auction to empty the space. So, if you are interested in
anything please contact me now. I have posted a couple of lists to the mailer.
I have a couple more that I will post over the holidays.

I have not had the warehouse open for sales for nearly a year. I have done all
of my sales through the Internet. I have sold lots of my collectable computers
through this list. Many thanks to the list provider and maintainer. Much of my
lab equipment I have sold through the LabX Auction. Highly recommended
http://www.labx.com/

I am open for private showings for a very short while. I can be reached at
whoagiii@aol.com, my regular mail address. Please contact me there. I am oft
out of town for meetings of a nonprofit I am involved with.

One of the latest discoveries is a Lilith Mouse in rough condition. The
original Lilith you can add to my top 10 sins.

Thanks for your interest.
Paxton Hoag



From allisonp at world.std.com  Thu Dec 24 15:57:54 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:30 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <199812242157.AA14559@world.std.com>






References: <01be2f1d$bd9d1ce0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981224183354.3eeff690@intellistar.net>

Be glad you're not here (Florida). The temperature today reached 86F (30C).
Very un-Christmas like feeling!

Anyway:

             Een Plesierige Kerfees
Argentine - Felices Pasquas Y felices ano Nuevo
Basque - Zorionstsu Eguberri. Zoriontsu Urte Berri On
Brazilian - Boas Festas e Feliz Ano Novo
Chinese - (Mandarin) Kung His Hsin Nien bing Chu Shen Tan
(Catonese) Gun Tso Sun Tan'Gung Haw SunDutch - Vrolijk Kerstfeest en een 
Gelukkig Nieuwjaar!
Esperanto - Gajan Kristnaskon
French - Joyeux Noel
German - Froeliche Weihnachten
Hebrew - Mo'adim Lesimkha. Chena tova
Italian - Buone Feste Natalizie
Japanese - Shinnen omedeto. Kurisumasu Omedeto
Korean - Sung Tan Chuk Ha
Norwegian - God Jul Og Godt Nytt Aar
Polish - Wesolych Swiat Bozego Narodzenia
Portuguese - Boas Festas
Russian - Pozdrevlyayu s prazdnikom Rozhdestva is Novim Godom
Scottish - Nollaig Chridheil agus Bliadhna Mhath Ur
Spanish - Feliz Navidad
Welsh - Nadolig Llawen 
English - Merry Christmas!

   Joe


At 03:43 PM 12/24/98 +1, you wrote:
>
>> Merry Christmas All
>> It's after 7:30pm Xmas Eve, and it's 36C.
>> Seeya
>
>If it wasn't for Christmas, I'll hate you for teasing us
>with this ridicoulus temperatures while we have -3C :)
>
>Anyway, Fr?hliche Weihnacht to all of you.
>
>Servus
>Hans
>(Going for my mother to part in Christmas dinner, off until Monday)
>
>--
>Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
>HRK
>



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Thu Dec 24 18:40:08 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: OT: Sam explains why Billy Boy is in trouble!
In-Reply-To: 
References: <01be2f1d$bd9d1ce0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981224184008.3eef4ecc@intellistar.net>

At 10:06 AM 12/24/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
>This is grossly off-topic but I just want to explain to our foreign
>friends why Clinton should not be running our country.

  YA!!!!  Well said Sam!!!!   



From cfandt at netsync.net  Thu Dec 24 16:56:54 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Fwd: Re: Old Radios
Message-ID: <4.1.19981224172453.00ae4100@206.231.8.2>

Hey gang!  Hope your holidays have been good to you so far whether Chanukah
or Christmas or Ramadan or Kwanzaa or no particular reason.

Well, here's a bit of a lead. Recall several days ago we got the original
msg posted here giving a list of Russian radios for sale?  Being one of the
resident old radio nuts on the ClassicCmp list I sent a private email sort
of taking them to task for sending an off topic post to our list. Only Wm.
Donzelli and myself on this list would even be interested in old radios as
we are both members of the AWA. Maybe one or two others here are also
members or simply like old radios --Tony D. is one,  otherwise I don't know.

BTW, the jpg attached to the original msg showing a Redstar radio seems to
be the same radio as I had seen at our Annual AWA Conference last
September. IIRC, a fellow from Great Britain bought it at our equipment
auction. Paid a big buck for it too. It had a metal case painted in that
interesting red woodgrain pattern. My Swedish friend commented it was a
direct copy of a French radio design and that the paint often falls off
these things and they rust badly.

Anyway, I got a reply back saying they can get old Russian computers (from
195.90.136.126 (dialup26.kaluga.com) by mx.kaluga.ru). In the back of my
mind I *knew* I might get a reply from them saying they could get old
computers.

So, by golly, here it is below. I figure it is one or more Russian folks
who are trying to make some sort of money. Times are real hard over there
as you already know. 

But I'm not too sure about doing any business with them. I would likely
work with an AWA member from Sweden, France or Germany that I personally
know to get Russian radio gear. Hans F. may have some trusted Eastern
connections to get Russian Computer gear.

So, these guys are just spammers in my book as far as I can presently see.
Oh well . . . 

Regards,  Chris
-- --

>From: "The Old Radios Trade" 
>To: "Christian Fandt" 
>Subject: Re: Old Radios
>Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 11:43:16 +0300
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
>
>Dear Friends
>
>What russian old computers are you interested ?
>We can to acquire it here for you!
>
>Thanks for your interest.
>
>The Old Radios Trade.
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Christian Fandt 
>To: The Old Radios Trade 
>Date: Thursday, December 24, 1998 6:44 AM
>Subject: Re: Old Radios
>
>
>>At 00:08 12/24/98 +0300, you wrote:
>>>Dear Colleagues
>>>
>>>We have for sale multitude of rare russian antiquarian radios.
>>>There are Zvezda 54 (RED STAR) , Belarus 53, SVD9 and many others solid
>>radios.
>>>
>>>We have are the following portable radios:
>>>model,   year.
>>
>>Why did you send this to our list?  We are interested only in old computers
>>on the ClassicCmp list, not radios. Please don't do it again.
>>-- --

Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/


From dburrows at netpath.net  Thu Dec 24 17:19:37 1998
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Sam explains why Billy Boy is in trouble!
Message-ID: <01b201be2f94$0823c5e0$bf281bce@p166>



>At 10:06 AM 12/24/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>
>>This is grossly off-topic but I just want to explain to our foreign
>>friends why Clinton should not be running our country.
>
>  YA!!!!  Well said Sam!!!!
>
I agree but want to add a couple items.

He is supposed to be the "Commander in Chief" of the Armed Forces and there
have been many servicemen and women discharged, stripped of their rank,
retirement pensions, and I think some have even spent time in prison for
similar and less serious things than Clinton has done.

One of the things that the "government" looks for when they do security
checks before you can work in a "classified" area is a full background check
looking for anything that someone could blackmail you with.  One of the
biggies is just what Clinton did.  If you put it down on the paperwork they
will just verify it but if you don't or are off by a month or 2 boy are you
in for the questions.  This could be something recent or 15 years ago.

Dan



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Dec 24 18:26:13 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Disk partitions under RT-11 using a WQESD controller
Message-ID: 

I'm working on getting TCP/IP working under RT-11 right now, and I decided
to bring the second partition on the disk online.  I'm using a WQESD ESDI
controller and have the disk I'm using for RT-11 partitioned into several
disks.

I pulled out the manual for the disk controller and figured out how to do
	set du3: unit=2 part=1
so it would recognize the correct partition.  Unfortunatly when I try to
then use the disk I have the following results.

.init du3:
DU3:/Initialize; Are you sure? Y
?DUP-F-Output error DU3:


.

.init/bad du3:
DU3:/Initialize; Are you sure? Y
?DUP-F-Bad block in system area DU3:

.copy sysgen.ans du3:
 Files copied:
?PIP-F-Output error DU3:SYSGEN.ANS

.


Anyone know what I'm doing wrong?

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From Watzman at ibm.net  Thu Dec 24 19:09:07 1998
From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Trantor Mini-SCSI
Message-ID: <000b01be2fa3$4787a800$cebb6420@barrysp2>

Trantor was bought by Adaptec.  The mini-SCSI boxes are well supported, they will usually be auto-detected by Win95/98 and the correct drivers automatically installed.  I used to have a T338 (one of the several devices in this series of products), and I probably still have a copy of the driver disks somewhere.  E-Mail me if you need them, and I'll look, but they are probably also on the Adaptec web site.

Barry Watzman
Watzman@ibm.net

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From tim at thereviewguide.com  Thu Dec 24 19:15:35 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Fwd: Re: Old Radios
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981224172453.00ae4100@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: <199812250115.RAA21121@geocities.com>

It also might be of interest that I know someone in Ukraine, so 
depending on the location in Russia... anyway, he used to lurk on 
this list.  (Andy?  You reading this?)

Tim

Date sent:      	Thu, 24 Dec 1998 17:56:54 -0500
Send reply to:  	classiccmp@u.washington.edu
From:           	Christian Fandt 
To:             	"Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
Subject:        	Fwd: Re: Old Radios

> Hey gang!  Hope your holidays have been good to you so far whether Chanukah
> or Christmas or Ramadan or Kwanzaa or no particular reason.
> 
> Well, here's a bit of a lead. Recall several days ago we got the original
> msg posted here giving a list of Russian radios for sale?  Being one of the
> resident old radio nuts on the ClassicCmp list I sent a private email sort
> of taking them to task for sending an off topic post to our list. Only Wm.
> Donzelli and myself on this list would even be interested in old radios as
> we are both members of the AWA. Maybe one or two others here are also
> members or simply like old radios --Tony D. is one,  otherwise I don't know.
> 
> BTW, the jpg attached to the original msg showing a Redstar radio seems to
> be the same radio as I had seen at our Annual AWA Conference last
> September. IIRC, a fellow from Great Britain bought it at our equipment
> auction. Paid a big buck for it too. It had a metal case painted in that
> interesting red woodgrain pattern. My Swedish friend commented it was a
> direct copy of a French radio design and that the paint often falls off
> these things and they rust badly.
> 
> Anyway, I got a reply back saying they can get old Russian computers (from
> 195.90.136.126 (dialup26.kaluga.com) by mx.kaluga.ru). In the back of my
> mind I *knew* I might get a reply from them saying they could get old
> computers.
> 
> So, by golly, here it is below. I figure it is one or more Russian folks
> who are trying to make some sort of money. Times are real hard over there
> as you already know. 
> 
> But I'm not too sure about doing any business with them. I would likely
> work with an AWA member from Sweden, France or Germany that I personally
> know to get Russian radio gear. Hans F. may have some trusted Eastern
> connections to get Russian Computer gear.
> 
> So, these guys are just spammers in my book as far as I can presently see.
> Oh well . . . 
> 
> Regards,  Chris
> -- --
> 
> >From: "The Old Radios Trade" 
> >To: "Christian Fandt" 
> >Subject: Re: Old Radios
> >Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 11:43:16 +0300
> >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
> >
> >Dear Friends
> >
> >What russian old computers are you interested ?
> >We can to acquire it here for you!
> >
> >Thanks for your interest.
> >
> >The Old Radios Trade.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Christian Fandt 
> >To: The Old Radios Trade 
> >Date: Thursday, December 24, 1998 6:44 AM
> >Subject: Re: Old Radios
> >
> >
> >>At 00:08 12/24/98 +0300, you wrote:
> >>>Dear Colleagues
> >>>
> >>>We have for sale multitude of rare russian antiquarian radios.
> >>>There are Zvezda 54 (RED STAR) , Belarus 53, SVD9 and many others solid
> >>radios.
> >>>
> >>>We have are the following portable radios:
> >>>model,   year.
> >>
> >>Why did you send this to our list?  We are interested only in old computers
> >>on the ClassicCmp list, not radios. Please don't do it again.
> >>-- --
> 
> Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
> Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
> Member of Antique Wireless Association
>         URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/
> 




From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Thu Dec 24 19:42:50 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Fwd: Re: Old Radios
In-Reply-To: <199812250115.RAA21121@geocities.com>
Message-ID: <000201be2fa7$e1790040$76f438cb@a.davie>

> > Anyway, I got a reply back saying they can get old Russian
> computers (from
> > 195.90.136.126 (dialup26.kaluga.com) by mx.kaluga.ru). In the back of my
> > mind I *knew* I might get a reply from them saying they could get old
> > computers.


Similar story.  I collect Soviet electronic calculators ( plug:
http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html ) and wrote to
them asking if they had any.  Of course they do.  More to the point, I asked
about specific models which are currently unknown but for magazine pictures
(VEGA, for example).  They replied that not only could they find these for
me, but "in any quantity".  That makes me incredibly suspicious!  My gut
feeling is to be extremely cautious, but haven't decided it's a scam right
yet.

"We not only think, but we sure what can to acquire for you any from these
calculators in the any quantity. "

A side-note, a friend in Russia (one of my suppliers, so to speak) goes
through me as an intermediary for his sales due to his fear of the Russian
Mafia taking notice.  I kid you not.  I've had quite extensive experience
getting things out of Russia and will be happy to offer advice to any trying
to do the same.  I can definitely obtain Russian computers - from reliable
sources - the only problem is the cost of getting them out!

A



From roblwill at usaor.net  Thu Dec 24 23:22:47 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
Message-ID: <01be2fc6$9b933ae0$748ea6d1@the-general>

Hi!  I've got a question:  has anyone ever heard of a SCSI floppy drive?  I
was talking to someone about one, and he said he'd never even heard of one,
and when I thought about it, I hadn't either.

Anyway, my question is about a WANG WLTC laptop that I have.  It has an
internal 10 MB JVC 16pin HD (ID 0), and an external (no internal) 360k SCSI
floppy (ID 1).  In the manual, it says that a 720k floppy and a 1.2 MB
floppy was also available for it.  My question is will a 1.44 MB floppy work
on it?  If so, where would I even be able to find one, since I've never even
seen one until I got this huge WANG.  (weighs about 18 lbs, plus the floppy
is about another 18).

Happy Holidaze
-and-
ThAnX,
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Dec 24 21:44:19 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
In-Reply-To: <01be2fc6$9b933ae0$748ea6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: 

>Hi!  I've got a question:  has anyone ever heard of a SCSI floppy drive?  I
>was talking to someone about one, and he said he'd never even heard of one,
>and when I thought about it, I hadn't either.

Yes.  I'm thinking that the NeXT slabs used 2.88Mb SCSI floppies, but...
Can't think of any other instances at the moment, but I have heard of such
a beast before.

Also some of the older SCSI controllers, I believe the Adaptec 1541B is
one, had floppy drive connectors on them, but I think this was for standard
floppies.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From gram at cnct.com  Thu Dec 24 21:59:55 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: vaugue musings...
References: <01be2f1d$bd9d1ce0$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> <3.0.1.16.19981224183354.3eeff690@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <36830DBB.3E7D76D6@cnct.com>

Joe wrote:
> 
> Be glad you're not here (Florida). The temperature today reached 86F (30C).
> Very un-Christmas like feeling!

Just like home -- I'm an Angeleno.  But here in New Jersey, the crap I
scraped off the sidewalk means we get a white christmas -- something I
do _not_ dream of.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Thu Dec 24 22:05:08 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
References: <01be2fc6$9b933ae0$748ea6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: <36830EF3.589B6705@bigfoot.com>

Sure is. While most run MFM, there are a few that are scsi, the Teac models
55GS, 235HS, 235JS, 335HS, 335JS, and Aurora Tech's FD350 and FD525 are just
some of the models in SCSI.

Jason Willgruber wrote:

> Hi!  I've got a question:  has anyone ever heard of a SCSI floppy drive?  I
> was talking to someone about one, and he said he'd never even heard of one,
> and when I thought about it, I hadn't either.
>
> Anyway, my question is about a WANG WLTC laptop that I have.  It has an
> internal 10 MB JVC 16pin HD (ID 0), and an external (no internal) 360k SCSI
> floppy (ID 1).  In the manual, it says that a 720k floppy and a 1.2 MB
> floppy was also available for it.  My question is will a 1.44 MB floppy work
> on it?  If so, where would I even be able to find one, since I've never even
> seen one until I got this huge WANG.  (weighs about 18 lbs, plus the floppy
> is about another 18).
>
> Happy Holidaze
> -and-
> ThAnX,
> --
>                  -Jason Willgruber
>                (roblwill@usaor.net)
>                   ICQ#: 1730318
> 



From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Thu Dec 24 22:09:49 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
References: 
Message-ID: <3683100B.A88ECD5C@bigfoot.com>



Zane H. Healy wrote:

> Also some of the older SCSI controllers, I believe the Adaptec 1541B is
> one, had floppy drive connectors on them, but I think this was for standard
> floppies.

Many of the dual adapter Adaptec had floppy controllers, MFM of course. The only
machine I've ever seen with SCSI floppies was a workstation, and although I'm
sure it wasn't a NeXT, I don't recall what brand it was.



From pechter at monmouth.com  Thu Dec 24 22:14:21 1998
From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
In-Reply-To:  from "Zane H. Healy" at "Dec 24, 98 07:44:19 pm"
Message-ID: <199812250414.XAA03630@monmouth.com>

> >Hi!  I've got a question:  has anyone ever heard of a SCSI floppy drive?  I
> >was talking to someone about one, and he said he'd never even heard of one,
> >and when I thought about it, I hadn't either.
> 
> Yes.  I'm thinking that the NeXT slabs used 2.88Mb SCSI floppies, but...
> Can't think of any other instances at the moment, but I have heard of such
> a beast before.
> 
> Also some of the older SCSI controllers, I believe the Adaptec 1541B is
> one, had floppy drive connectors on them, but I think this was for standard
> floppies.
> 
> 			Zane

Sony made SCSI floppies... Pyramid used them on their Unix R3000 multiprocessor
systems for the PCOS console operating system.

The Adaptecs supported standard floppies as well as SCSI devices...

Bill


From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Thu Dec 24 22:28:11 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
In-Reply-To:  from "Zane H. Healy" at Dec 24, 1998 07:44:19 PM
Message-ID: <199812250428.VAA03968@calico.litterbox.com>

> Also some of the older SCSI controllers, I believe the Adaptec 1541B is
> one, had floppy drive connectors on them, but I think this was for standard
> floppies.

Yup.  the 1542 series all supports standard floppies.  That's what distinguishes
then from the 1540 series.  1542B is a good solid card.  I've got one in my
unix machine.  Place I was working at said they were too obselete to use.

Other topic:
I know it was mentioned here before that the rz23 drives don't autostart.
Does anyone know if older macintosh's (say, an se30) can give the device 
start sequence?  or if there's any simple way to force the drive to start
anyway?

-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From roblwill at usaor.net  Fri Dec 25 02:23:25 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
Message-ID: <01be2fdf$d7baab20$868ea6d1@the-general>

>Many of the dual adapter Adaptec had floppy controllers, MFM of course. The
only
>machine I've ever seen with SCSI floppies was a workstation, and although
I'm
>sure it wasn't a NeXT, I don't recall what brand it was.
>
Only problem is that the WANG isn't a workstation it's not even a desktop.
It's a *laptop*.  It's and 8086 with 1 MB RAM, and a 10 MB HD.  There's no
place to install a new SCSI controller card.  I dismantled the external
floppy (there is no internal floppy), which is nearly the size of the
computer, and it appears to have a standard 360k floppy, connected to
another board, which is connected to the dual SCSI socket on the back of the
unit (centronics?  look like a big printer connector- on the printer end).
The drive ID dial is also connected to the board.  Where would I be able to
find some drives (1.2 MB, 720k, 1.44MB, HD's) that would be fairly cheap
(with cables)?  I'm not sure if the controller that's in the drive box now
is capable of running a higher density drive, but I'd like to keep it
original (when the drive is being accessed, the light flashes like  HD
light).

If anyone would like a picture to see what it looks like, just send me a
personal email, and I'll send you a picture (about 40k).

Happy Holidaze,
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From foxnhare at goldrush.com  Thu Dec 24 23:53:18 1998
From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Commodore Pet 2001
References: <199812240802.AAA24962@lists5.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <3683284A.E00B3295@goldrush.com>

> From: Phil Clayton 
> Subject: Commodore Pet 2001
> 
> I have been searching the internet for 6 months now for a
> Commodore Pet ..
> Well I finally got an original Commodore Pet 2001 8MB RAM
> Purchased this fine computer from an individual for $230.00
> knowing that it did not work.

That's pretty good, some have been searching alot longer for one of the originals.

> It is cosmetically in Very Fine Condition, however the previous
> owner said it was dead and only got a cursor on the screen..
> After I received it, I started looking closely on the main board
> and there it was a video IC chip that had 2 pins not in the socket.
> I reinserted it, and did get a prompt but just for a few moments.
> So decieded to reinserted all the IC's. I powered it up again..
> And there is was 8 MB RAM and the beautiful Commodore
> Basic prompt..

This is VERY common (better add this to my PET FAQ!) the chips tend to loosen
themselves out of thier sockets.  and a push-down is a common troubleshooting
procedure.  In later computers like the Atari ST and Amiga it was drop the
computer from a hight of a few inches (they didn't want you to open the case).
 :/

Now when it powers up if it reads:

*** COMMODORE BASIC ***

you have the original classic (read 'bug-ridden') ROMs.

if it reads:

### COMMODORE BASIC ###

you have the 'upgrade' (mostly bug fixed) ROMs.

> Typed in a small BASIC program and it worked just fine.
> The Chicklet keyboard has several keys that are hard to get to
> work, I must press some of them several times to work..

This is due to deterioration of the cunductive surface on the key-bottoms,
mashing them sometimes scrapes enough crud to get them to work.

> Anyone have any ideas on how to clean them.

Unplug the keyboard cable from the computer (careful on this those old pet
keyboard wires are more brittle then most)

remove the keyboard assembly from the housing and then carefully remove all
the dinky screws from the botton of the keyboard.  When you pull apart the
bottom PCB from the keyboard assembly you may have some of the rubber key-cups
still stuck to the PCB, just put them back in thier proper place in the
assembly half.

With a clean pink-pearl erase erase all the 'fingers' on the PCB (not too
hard), wipe off the eraser crumbs then wipe the keyboard with a paper towel
moistened with isopropyl alcohol (you can use rubbing alcohol, but make sure
the water/glycerne content is low, otherwise 100% isopropyl is found in the
paint section.  Make sure the pcb is dry and free of dust or lint.

Cleaning the little conductive 'feet' in the cups is another matter, I usually
to a quick (light) wipe with a clean eraser (you will note it picks up some of
the carbon, make sure you 'erase' on some paper to re-clean the eraser as you
go.) Some use scotch tape to lift off any particles (sometimes works, less
descructive).  The worst thing I saw was someone who gold-leafed all the feet
(which probably worked for a champ until sometime before I got the machine.)

Reassemble the keyboard (carefully tighten those dinky screws, they strip
easily) and test.  If every other (or every third or fourth) key is not
printing, most likely one of the keyboard wires probably broke during the
cleaning, check the wires.

> Have not tested the built in cassette yet..

The earlier units used butchered SANYO cassette players (you can tell if the
unit has white control buttons and a lift-lid.  Later units were a clean
commodore design in all-black with eject button. 

> I am very excited to add this great machine to my collection.
> In 1978 I Lusted for the first time for a computer, and it was
> this machine. But in 1978 no way could I afford to buy one..
> Phil...

For more information check out my PET FAQ:

http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/petfaq.html

And my Commodore PET tribute Page:

http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/pet.html

nopt to mention the PET related links on my main commodore page (see signature line)


From marvin at rain.org  Fri Dec 25 00:40:18 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Ebay Kaypro 2
References: <199812250428.VAA03968@calico.litterbox.com>
Message-ID: <36833352.3FBA912E@rain.org>

I found an amusing listing tonight on ebay for a Kaypro 2 listed at $1000. 
If things continue on this way, I may be able to retire and purchase a small
state to live in :).  URL is:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=51344761


From Innfogra at aol.com  Fri Dec 25 02:55:42 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Unsoldering
Message-ID: <588c2d00.3683530e@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/24/98 2:00:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,
allisonp@world.std.com writes:

> If I want to lift parts and keep the board I have a tin container filled 
>  with about a 1/2 inch of solder (used for wave soldering). heated over a 
>  gas stove (coleman) I can float a board and pick off components with 
>  tweezers.  takes a little care to keep the heat reasonable.
>  
A cast Iron frying pan works well to float a pool of solder in. There are even
square frying pans.

I have had some success with the new generation of propane micro torches when
I need to straighten leads before pulling. 

Once, I got from Intel a couple of solder pots that pumped molten solder up
against a circuit board and then drained off to the sides. It was designed to
work on large circuit cards by flowing solder against a 4" section at a time.
I also had a couple of bench machines that use hot air for component removal,
usually surface mount stuff

It pays to use a good commercial heat gun for component removal. They have
better temperature regulation. Hot Air Guns made for component removal are
expensive but you can get tips for almost all of the chip packages. With a
little bit of creative metal bending you can make your own tips for a std
commercial heat gun.

Paxton


From Innfogra at aol.com  Fri Dec 25 02:55:40 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Any Biin Computers out there??
Message-ID: <2434d878.3683530c@aol.com>

The Biin Computer was a joint project of Intel and Siemens to manufacture a
fault tolerant computer for Online Transaction Processing about 1989. It used
multiple custom processors i860 or i960 based, I'm not sure which. Memory was
32 or 64 Meg from the factory. It's operating system resided on a 5 1/4 FH 300
Meg Siemens HD. Data resided on one or more IPI interfaced 9" 800 Meg HDs. VME
Bus, SCSI peripherals. Unix based I think.

The story was to build 100 prototypes, put them out for testing and see where
it went. Biin wanted to compete with IBM and Tandem. After several years,
problems with split management and, not the least, too small of hard drives
they had spent $5 million. When they were going to have to spend at least 3
times that to ramp up production they pulled the plug, called in the machines
and liquidated the company. I suspect they couldn't generate sales.

Biin scrapped the machines. We bought and sold the IPI drives, memory 1300
DC600 tapes and much of the new part inventory. Under a certified destruction
contract we scrapped the remaining chassis. These were very interesting, about
20 "W X 30"H X 36"D. NEW! They had been shipped Air freight from Germany.
Fully assembled, ready to have drives and cards installed. Very well made, It
took a skilled person 4 hours to disassemble one to component parts. I hated
doing it, they were extremely nice machines, great German workmanship.

I was wondering if any of the machines might have escaped from Biin's grip?
Maybe in Germany?

Culled from the 1300 tapes is a complete factory set of Biin Software. If
there were a machine around it might be useful to keep.

Much later I was able to obtain the pinboard tester for the main CPU card. It
came with a prototype card, test manual and SW for the tester.

Anyway I was wondering if anyone has seen, used or has one of these computers?
The Biin is definitely rare and about 10 yrs old. If any exist it would be
collectable.


From Innfogra at aol.com  Fri Dec 25 02:55:43 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Old Radios - computers
Message-ID: <67d9de6.3683530f@aol.com>

Hey, I like old radios too. I got my start with tube short-wave radios about
the time the transistor was invented. I took a Hallicrafter S-40B to 4-H
summer camp and strung a long wire antenna. I still travel with a short-wave,
a Sony ICF2002 and a wire antenna.

However this is a classic computer forum so I will ask computer questions. Is
there a web site or inventory of early Russian computers like the Russian
Calculator site run by our fellow friend AD? Was there a system similar to
SAGE? (I loved Jim Willings pictures.) What is the history of the early
Russian computer development like?

I also liked the report back to the list of contact with the posters. If
anyone ends up doing business with them I would love to see that also.

Paxton


From Innfogra at aol.com  Fri Dec 25 02:55:38 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
Message-ID: <6c90a4ef.3683530a@aol.com>

I have a bunch of new SCSI to floppy only controllers. They are of NCR
manufacture. I got them from the Biin project, about 1991 so they would run
at least 1.2s, maybe 1.44s.

$5 each plus shipping. If there is any interest I will get more info. Replies
should go off list. Contact me at whoagiii@aol.com.

Happy Holidays.
Paxton Hoag


From Innfogra at aol.com  Fri Dec 25 03:06:07 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Ebay Kaypro 2
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 12/24/98 10:42:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, marvin@rain.org
writes:

> 
>  I found an amusing listing tonight on ebay for a Kaypro 2 listed at $1000. 
> 
With that kind of asking / starting price I bet he gets no bids.
Paxton


From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Fri Dec 25 03:02:44 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Old Radios - computers
In-Reply-To: <67d9de6.3683530f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000001be2fe5$55b082c0$12f438cb@a.davie>

> However this is a classic computer forum so I will ask computer
> questions. Is
> there a web site or inventory of early Russian computers like the Russian
> Calculator site run by our fellow friend AD? Was there a system similar to
> SAGE? (I loved Jim Willings pictures.) What is the history of the early
> Russian computer development like?


Indeed.
http://www.computer-museum.ru/

The first "glass jar" leads to computer pictures.  I hope your Cyrillic is
good.
Some interesting pictures, you'll have to work hard to read the data :)

Cheers
A




From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Fri Dec 25 03:09:44 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Old Radios - computers
In-Reply-To: <67d9de6.3683530f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000101be2fe6$4fcef7a0$12f438cb@a.davie>

Is
> there a web site or inventory of early Russian computers like the Russian
> Calculator site run by our fellow friend AD? Was there a system similar to

The Soviet BESM-6 is described at
http://www.mailcom.com/besm6/
There's an emulator on that site, too :)

"BESM-6 was designed in 1965 by a group of engineers working at the
S.A.Lebedev Institute of Precise Mechanics and Computing Equipment (ITMiVT
in Russian). One of them was Mark Tyapkin, who is still with IPMCE, afaik.

The production started in 1967, by the "SAM Plant" (SAM stands for
"Computing-Analytical Machines") in Moscow. The base configuration included
CPU, 192 Kb of core memory, magnetic drums, propriatary magnetic tape
drives, teletypes, typewriters (with parallel interface), alphanumeric
printers and punchcard/punchtape readers and writers. About 350 copies have
been made until early 80's. The later configurations included standard 1/2
inch tapes and IBM-clone magnetic disc drives, serial videoterminals,
plotters, etc, mostly imported or clones of the original hardware.

The main purpose of BESM-6 was "number crunching", so it did not have any
specific instructions for character manipulation. The memory could only be
addressed word by word. "



From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Fri Dec 25 03:55:53 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Review: "History of Computing" CD
In-Reply-To: <000101be2fe6$4fcef7a0$12f438cb@a.davie>
Message-ID: <000301be2fec$c265ee80$12f438cb@a.davie>

Knowing I'm "in" to old computers, my in-laws bought me a really cool
looking CD for Christmas.  Called simply "History of Computing - An
Encyclopedia of the People and Machines That Made Computer History", it had
great promise.  Although very appreciative of the thought behind the
present, I have to say that I simply hate this pathetic compilation. Taking
just 20Meg of the CD, as a single windows Help-file (!!), very poor
information (like, a couple of sentences for most machines) and <100
(extremely poor quality/size) pictures - I was very disappointed.
Basically, I've put it in my computer once, and am now delegating it to the
trash bin.  Rating: 0.5/10, and it would have been worse but for the nice
looking cover.  There are many, many, many many more and much much much
nicer websites out there dealing with the same subject.  I consider this
product to be, in short, pathetic.
Publisher:  Lexikon Services, 1998 - HistoryCD@aol.com
AOL?  Why am I not surprised??
Cheers
A




From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au  Fri Dec 25 04:36:27 1998
From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: vaugue musings...
Message-ID: <01be2ff2$6d931760$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>

-----Original Message-----
From: Hans Franke 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Friday, 25 December 1998 2:20
Subject: Re: vaugue musings...


>
>> Merry Christmas All
>> It's after 7:30pm Xmas Eve, and it's 36C.
>> Seeya
>
>If it wasn't for Christmas, I'll hate you for teasing us
>with this ridicoulus temperatures while we have -3C :)


Want to swap?  I HATE summer.  My shop is not airconditioned and
I can't take computers apart while I'm dripping on to the boards.
I really like cold weather.  Mind you, it never gets below 0C here,
except maybe a couple below during the mid winter nights.

>Anyway, Fr?hliche Weihnacht to all of you.

And to you all.  It's 9pm on Christmas Day, we had a cool
southerly change, and the temp is now a very comfortable
22C or so.  But it's still 30+ in the shop.  Gonna have to get
some exhaust fans or an evaporative cooler at least......

We had Xmas Dinner outside around the BBQ, but it was
a bit warm even there.

Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie
South Australia.
netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au



From svs at ropnet.ru  Fri Dec 25 05:16:05 1998
From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
In-Reply-To: ; from Zane H. Healy on Thu, Dec 24, 1998 at 07:44:19PM -0800
References: <01be2fc6$9b933ae0$748ea6d1@the-general> 
Message-ID: <19981225141605.16698@firepower>

On Thu, Dec 24, 1998 at 07:44:19PM -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote:

> >Hi!  I've got a question:  has anyone ever heard of a SCSI floppy drive?  I
> >was talking to someone about one, and he said he'd never even heard of one,
> >and when I thought about it, I hadn't either.
> 
> Yes.  I'm thinking that the NeXT slabs used 2.88Mb SCSI floppies, but...

DEC RX23 and RX26 (1.44MB and 2.88MB respectively) are SCSI floppy drives.

> Also some of the older SCSI controllers, I believe the Adaptec 1541B is
> one, had floppy drive connectors on them, but I think this was for standard
> floppies.

Tektronix 4336, a SCSI-only machine, has Tektronix 4926 SCSI-to-MFM adapter
with Panasonic JU475 5.25" high-density drive attached.  A manual for the
4926 would be handy -- please, Santa :)

-- 
Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru


From svs at ropnet.ru  Fri Dec 25 06:05:27 1998
From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Old Radios - computers
In-Reply-To: <000001be2fe5$55b082c0$12f438cb@a.davie>; from Andrew Davie on Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 08:02:44PM +1100
References: <67d9de6.3683530f@aol.com> <000001be2fe5$55b082c0$12f438cb@a.davie>
Message-ID: <19981225150527.22778@firepower>

On Fri, Dec 25, 1998 at 08:02:44PM +1100, Andrew Davie wrote:

> > there a web site or inventory of early Russian computers like the Russian
> > Calculator site run by our fellow friend AD? Was there a system similar to
> > SAGE? (I loved Jim Willings pictures.) What is the history of the early
> > Russian computer development like?

Comprehensive Computer Catalogue lists some Russian machines -- search it
using country name 'USSR'.  (I really should extract some data out of books
I have and send an update to maintainer...)

> Indeed.
> http://www.computer-museum.ru/
> 
> The first "glass jar" leads to computer pictures.  I hope your Cyrillic is
> good.
> Some interesting pictures, you'll have to work hard to read the data :)

Some more sites to visit:

http://www.uniyar.ac.ru/museum/

http://rdc.cch.pmc.ru/
http://www.users.itl.net.ua/~prool/BK-0010.html
http://people.weekend.ru/vanyas/museumbk/

http://www-win.alex.krsk.ru/198_/1988/1988_06.htm

http://www.dorje.com:8080/netstuff/folklore/soviet.comps

I'll post more URLs later.

-- 
Sergey Svishchev -- svs{at}ropnet{dot}ru


From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Fri Dec 25 08:52:47 1998
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Unsoldering
In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
        "Re: Unsoldering" (Dec 24, 16:58)
References: <199812242158.AA14600@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <9812251452.ZM3126@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Dec 24, 16:58, Allison J Parent wrote:
> Subject: Re: Unsoldering
>
>  
> I use that trick to get parts off board where I don't care about the
board.
> Sometimes I apply a propane torch.  I get good parts but the boards a
mess.

I suspect Hans may be using a thermostatically controlled hot air gun;
Steinel make a very nice one which is intended for this sort of work, but
it costs about 3 times the price of a normal paint stripper.  They're easy
to find in DIY stores in Austria, so I imagine they're fairly common in
Germany too.

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York


From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Fri Dec 25 08:48:23 1998
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
In-Reply-To: Sergey Svishchev 
        "Re: SCSI floppies" (Dec 25, 14:16)
References: <01be2fc6$9b933ae0$748ea6d1@the-general> 
	 
Message-ID: <9812251448.ZM3099@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Dec 25, 14:16, Sergey Svishchev wrote:
> Subject: Re: SCSI floppies
> On Thu, Dec 24, 1998 at 07:44:19PM -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote:
>
> > >Hi!  I've got a question:  has anyone ever heard of a SCSI floppy
drive?  I
> > >was talking to someone about one, and he said he'd never even heard of
one,
> > >and when I thought about it, I hadn't either.
> >
> > Yes.  I'm thinking that the NeXT slabs used 2.88Mb SCSI floppies,
but...
>
> DEC RX23 and RX26 (1.44MB and 2.88MB respectively) are SCSI floppy
drives.

SGI used SCSI floppies too.  The SGI ones are TEAC FD235 units with a motor
eject, and a small daughterboard fitted to the bottom.  SGI also used
INSITE 3.5" flopticals which can be used as SCSI floppies.  And Eltec (in
Germany?) made SCSI add-on boards so that standard floppies could be put on
a SCSI bus.

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York


From KFergason at aol.com  Fri Dec 25 09:42:38 1998
From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Ebay Kaypro 2
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 12/25/98 1:07:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, Innfogra@aol.com
writes:

> > 
>  >  I found an amusing listing tonight on ebay for a Kaypro 2 listed at
$1000.
>  
>  > 
>  With that kind of asking / starting price I bet he gets no bids.
>  Paxton

you obviously did not check it out, but you are correct. the bidding had
closed
with no bids.  

Merry Christmas!  


From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Fri Dec 25 10:48:56 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
In-Reply-To: <199812251641.LAA00778@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA27709; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 19:55:01 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 25 Dec 1998 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:
> Yes.  I'm thinking that the NeXT slabs used 2.88Mb SCSI floppies, but...
> Can't think of any other instances at the moment, but I have heard of such
> a beast before.

The PS/2 55SX (a 386 SCSI MCA machine) also had 2.88Mb SCSI floppies.
----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From erd at infinet.com  Fri Dec 25 11:13:56 1998
From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Unsoldering
In-Reply-To: <9812251452.ZM3126@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Dec 25, 98 02:52:47 pm
Message-ID: <199812251713.MAA01103@user1.infinet.com>

 
On Dec 24, 16:58, Allison J Parent wrote:
> Subject: Re: Unsoldering
>
>  
> I use that trick to get parts off board where I don't care about the board.
> Sometimes I apply a propane torch.  I get good parts but the boards a mess.

I use a solder pot, originally designed for mass-production wire tinning, but
if you overfill it, creating a menescus of solder, you can refloat the boards
a bit at a time and pull the parts off with tweezers.

The solder pot is thermostatically controlled, but the solder mass is a bit
thermally sluggish.  I usually have to take a break after a couple of passes
and let it equilibrate.

I was astonished to find bar solder at Fry's.  Sold by the pound bar, right
out on the shelf with the other prototyping supplies.

-ethan


From Watzman at ibm.net  Fri Dec 25 11:32:52 1998
From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: OT - Clinton
Message-ID: <000701be302c$a944b860$8cbb6420@barrysp2>

I don't want to turn this into a debate on Clinton, and for that reason I will  ***NOT*** argue the matter on this message board, in any way, at all (I've done that on other forums, but this is not the place for it).

But I do want to make it clear that those who support his ouster speak for themselves only, and that many others disagree with their positions and their logic/arguments.

Opinions here are greatly divided, ranging from those who believe he should be forcibly removed from office and possibly even imprisoned to those who think he's one of the better presidents of the 20th century (I'm in the latter group).

History will judge with more and probably better perspective than any of us can currently apply.  It will also judge those who work towards and favor his removal.

That's all.
Barry Watzman

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From handyman at sprintmail.com  Fri Dec 25 00:29:16 1998
From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Commodore Pet 2001
References: <199812240802.AAA24962@lists5.u.washington.edu> <3683284A.E00B3295@goldrush.com>
Message-ID: <368330BC.B23CFF8F@sprintmail.com>

Thanks Larry for all the information on the Pet,I  feel like a kid on Christmas with my
new find..
Like I said in 1978 this is the very first computer that I got bug from.
It was in a window of a High-tech Gadget type store with a great
graphics demo running. I inquired about it from the Clerk there who knew nothing
about it. Nor did I, but it was pure Lust on my part with the thought of owning
such an obviously powerful computer. When he told me the price of $599.00 I
know it would be some time before I could own it. So now only 21 years later
I have one.

I will take look see if its the earliest version Basic or the upgraded one.

> Now when it powers up if it reads:
> *** COMMODORE BASIC ***
> you have the original classic (read 'bug-ridden') ROMs.if it reads:
> ### COMMODORE BASIC ###
> you have the 'upgrade' (mostly bug fixed) ROMs.
> The earlier units used butchered SANYO cassette players (you can tell if the
> unit has white control buttons and a lift-lid.  Later units were a clean
> commodore design in all-black with eject button.
>

Mine has the the Sanyo Cassette with White keysAlso the border around the screen is blue
not White or Black like
some others I have seen..

Does this indicate an earlier Pet ?

> For more information check out my PET FAQ:
>
> http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/petfaq.html
>
> And my Commodore PET tribute Page:
>
> http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/pet.html
>
> nopt to mention the PET related links on my main commodore page (see signature line)

  This is a great source of information to me, Thanks you very much for
telling me about..

I'll be working on the keyboard later today or tomorrow, let you know how it goes..

Thanks again..

Phil..



From marvin at rain.org  Fri Dec 25 12:35:24 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Ebay Kaypro 2
References: 
Message-ID: <3683DAEC.2498BFF4@rain.org>

KFergason@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 12/25/98 1:07:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, Innfogra@aol.com
> writes:
> 
> > >
> > >  I found an amusing listing tonight on ebay for a Kaypro 2 listed at $1000.
> >
> >  With that kind of asking / starting price I bet he gets no bids.
> >  Paxton
> 
> you obviously did not check it out, but you are correct. the bidding had closed with no bids.

I just did check it out and the auction closed a few hours after 2 days of
being posted.  Since that is a non-standard ebay auction time, the seller
must have closed it out ... probably after Pax looked at it and before you
did :)!


From jpl15 at netcom.com  Fri Dec 25 12:57:18 1998
From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: SoCal TRW Swapmeet
Message-ID: 



  A quick lo-bandwidth reminder to all and sundry who might be in 
the Los Angeles area this weekend: The monthly TRW Ham Radio and 
Electronics swapmeet will be held tomorrow, Saturday, 26 Dec, from 
7:30 until 11:30 am in El Segundo...  see previous post for 
directions or e-mail me privately.

  Have a __________________________  ______________________!
         (congratulatory adjective)  (winter solstice fest)

John


From nerdware at laidbak.com  Fri Dec 25 14:33:18 1998
From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Ebay Kaypro 2
In-Reply-To: <3683DAEC.2498BFF4@rain.org>
Message-ID: <199812252030.OAA17123@garcon.laidbak.com>

Date sent:      	Fri, 25 Dec 1998 10:35:24 -0800
Send reply to:  	classiccmp@u.washington.edu
From:           	Marvin 
To:             	"Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
Subject:        	Re: Ebay Kaypro 2

> KFergason@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > In a message dated 12/25/98 1:07:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, Innfogra@aol.com
> > writes:
> > 
> > > >
> > > >  I found an amusing listing tonight on ebay for a Kaypro 2 listed at $1000.
> > >
> > >  With that kind of asking / starting price I bet he gets no bids.
> > >  Paxton
> > 
> > you obviously did not check it out, but you are correct. the bidding had closed with no bids.
> 
> I just did check it out and the auction closed a few hours after 2 days of
> being posted.  Since that is a non-standard ebay auction time, the seller
> must have closed it out ... probably after Pax looked at it and before you
> did :)!

I also find that amusing, since I've got 6 that I've paid a total of $20 
for.........Hmmmmmmmm.........at a grand a pop, that would be a healthy 
downpayment on a new car.....or halfway to an Apple I...... I hate it when 
people get into the "ebay Zone" and think that a C64 with a 1541 is worth 
$300..........You used to be able to pick up some nice pieces for a decent 
price, but within the last 6 months or so, people just get absolutely stupid when 
they start bidding.



Paul Braun
NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you.
nerdware@laidbak.com
www.laidbak.com/nerdware


From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Fri Dec 25 14:55:32 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Ebay Kaypro 2
References:  <3683DAEC.2498BFF4@rain.org>
Message-ID: <3683FBC3.EE4C31FF@bigfoot.com>

Can you imagine just the fee for inserting this ad, whether a joke or not and whether it sold or
not?

Marvin wrote:

> KFergason@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 12/25/98 1:07:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, Innfogra@aol.com
> > writes:
> >
> > > >
> > > >  I found an amusing listing tonight on ebay for a Kaypro 2 listed at $1000.
> > >
> > >  With that kind of asking / starting price I bet he gets no bids.
> > >  Paxton
> >
> > you obviously did not check it out, but you are correct. the bidding had closed with no bids.
>
> I just did check it out and the auction closed a few hours after 2 days of
> being posted.  Since that is a non-standard ebay auction time, the seller
> must have closed it out ... probably after Pax looked at it and before you
> did :)!



From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Fri Dec 25 15:09:25 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
References: 
Message-ID: <3683FF04.D78822FE@bigfoot.com>

Max Eskin wrote:

> On Fri, 25 Dec 1998 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:
> > Yes.  I'm thinking that the NeXT slabs used 2.88Mb SCSI floppies, but...
> > Can't think of any other instances at the moment, but I have heard of such
> > a beast before.
>
> The PS/2 55SX (a 386 SCSI MCA machine) also had 2.88Mb SCSI floppies.

Huh? The 55SX has an ESDI controller for the HD and uses stock MFM 1.44
floppies. It can use the floppies from other units as well Even the 56/5gSLC
that has a SCSI interface and 2.88 mb floppy doesn't have a SCSI floppy. Where
did you get this from?




From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 25 12:41:17 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
In-Reply-To:  from "Zane H. Healy" at Dec 24, 98 07:44:19 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 25 12:45:39 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Ebay Kaypro 2
In-Reply-To: <36833352.3FBA912E@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Dec 24, 98 10:40:18 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 25 12:53:06 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
In-Reply-To: <01be2fdf$d7baab20$868ea6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Dec 25, 98 00:23:25 am
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 25 12:56:49 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Old Radios - computers
In-Reply-To: <67d9de6.3683530f@aol.com> from "Innfogra@aol.com" at Dec 25, 98 03:55:43 am
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 25 13:02:53 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Review: "History of Computing" CD
In-Reply-To: <000301be2fec$c265ee80$12f438cb@a.davie> from "Andrew Davie" at Dec 25, 98 08:55:53 pm
Message-ID: 

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From marvin at rain.org  Fri Dec 25 15:33:30 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Ebay: Heath H8-1 4K Static Memory Manual
References:  <3683DAEC.2498BFF4@rain.org> <3683FBC3.EE4C31FF@bigfoot.com>
Message-ID: <368404AA.2D7133DF@rain.org>

Just looking around on ebay again this morning, and found this Heath H8-1
manual listed.  Starting bid is $2.00 and there are no bidders at this
time.  URL is:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=51536912


From Innfogra at aol.com  Fri Dec 25 15:56:21 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:31 2005
Subject: Ebay Kaypro 2
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 12/25/98 7:44:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
KFergason@aol.com writes:

> 
>  > > 
>  >  >  I found an amusing listing tonight on ebay for a Kaypro 2 listed at
>  $1000.
>  >  
>  >  > 
>  >  With that kind of asking / starting price I bet he gets no bids.
>  >  Paxton
>  
>  you obviously did not check it out, but you are correct. the bidding had
>  closed
>  with no bids.  
>  
>  Merry Christmas!  
>  
Interesting. When I looked at it, shortly after it was mentioned on the list,
it had 5 days left before closing. I wonder why the lister pulled the ad? I
believe you still have to pay your listing fees. Did anyone contact the
seller?
Paxton


From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Fri Dec 25 16:07:59 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: Ebay Kaypro 2
References: 
Message-ID: <36840CBE.ED2BAAF7@bigfoot.com>

Innfogra@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 12/25/98 7:44:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> KFergason@aol.com writes:
>
> >  >  >  I found an amusing listing tonight on ebay for a Kaypro 2 listed at
> >  $1000.
>
> >  >  With that kind of asking / starting price I bet he gets no bids.
> >  >  Paxton
> >  you obviously did not check it out, but you are correct. the bidding had
> >  closed
> >  with no bids.
> >
> >  Merry Christmas!
> >
> Interesting. When I looked at it, shortly after it was mentioned on the list,
> it had 5 days left before closing. I wonder why the lister pulled the ad? I
> believe you still have to pay your listing fees. Did anyone contact the
> seller?
> Paxton

He or she probably got a cash deal by email or a trade offer, and pulled it. Yes
as soon as it's listed you have to pay a listing fee. If it sells then you have
to pay another fee, the final value fee. That ought to be a nice one as well if
it hadn't closed.

Either that or the person that listed it is a lurker in here and saw the comments
and decided to get real.



From KFergason at aol.com  Fri Dec 25 16:28:18 1998
From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: Ebay Kaypro 2
Message-ID: <644fe90c.36841182@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/25/98 2:10:15 PM Pacific Standard Time,
rhblake@bigfoot.com writes:

> Either that or the person that listed it is a lurker in here and saw the 
> comments
>  and decided to get real.
>  
my original comment was made about 30 seconds after the first msg
pointing to it.  the auction was already closed.  I don't believe our list
is that slow.  

it would be interesting to know why it was removed.  
also, i can't seem to find it again.  i deleted the original message with the
url, but i would think I could search on ebay and find it, but it ain't
showing
up.

kelly


From jimw at agora.rdrop.com  Fri Dec 25 16:57:43 1998
From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812251641.LAA00778@localhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981225145743.0099b6e0@agora.rdrop.com>

At 11:48 AM 12/25/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Fri, 25 Dec 1998 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:
>> Yes.  I'm thinking that the NeXT slabs used 2.88Mb SCSI floppies, but...
>> Can't think of any other instances at the moment, but I have heard of such
>> a beast before.

Hmmm...  While I can't speak for all of the NeXT 'slabs', the NXTstation
that I have in my lap at the moment seems to have a rather normal (Mac
looking) non-SCSI floppy drive mounted in it.

-jim

---
jimw@agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174




From roblwill at usaor.net  Fri Dec 25 20:09:19 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
Message-ID: <01be3074$bf1ad960$8b8ea6d1@the-general>

>I'm quite sure that things like SPARCbooks are normally considered to be
>both laptops and workstations....
>

SPARCbooks had a network connector, didn't they?  The WANG only has a
RS-232C and a modem (300baud?  I never even got it working yet.)

>
>Quite possible. What chips are on the interface board? Does it appear to
>have enough smarts to be a scsi->floppy controller (SCSI chip, FDC chip,
>CPU, RAM/EPROM probably), or is it fairly simple? Is it known that the
>host interface is SCSI, or is it just a 50 pin cable (which could be a
>lot of things).
>
It's definitely SCSI, because when I once forgot to connect the HD
(internal), it came up with a message "SCSI controller failure at address
[0]", or something like that.  It's got a SCSI terminator on the non-used
plug on the floppy, too.

>
>A 720K drive should go straight in, unless the software is totally broken
>(the hardware interface is the same, apart from the drive having 80
tracks).
>
Software?  No software driving anything on this machine, except for the WANG
video to CGA converter and PC-emulator.  Everything else is hardware.  If it
was software-controlled, there would be absolutely no way to initialize the
system, since according to the manual, The computer came with a clean,
unformatted HD.  You would boot from the floppy, initialize the HD,
partition it, format it, then install the system software, and configure it
to what you needed.  From what it sounded like, it was the type of computer
for more experienced computer users.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 25 17:30:27 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
In-Reply-To: <01be3074$bf1ad960$8b8ea6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Dec 25, 98 06:09:19 pm
Message-ID: 

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From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Dec 25 17:40:18 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: Any Biin Computers out there??
In-Reply-To: <2434d878.3683530c@aol.com> (Innfogra@aol.com)
References: <2434d878.3683530c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <19981225234018.19797.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Innfogra@aol.com wrote:
> The Biin Computer was a joint project of Intel and Siemens to manufacture a
> fault tolerant computer for Online Transaction Processing about 1989. It used
> multiple custom processors i860 or i960 based, I'm not sure which.

The Biin was an outgrowth of the Intel "Gemini" project, which itself was
in some sense a followon to the unsuccessful iAPX-432.  The Biin processor
had a 33-bit tagged architecture.  The i960 was later released as the
32-bit untagged version.  Some i960 variants, the MC, MM, and MX, were
eventually offered with the 33rd tag bit present.  This was a "marketing
breakthrough"; they extolled the virtues of tag bits to military customers,
but didn't actually offer any software to take advantage of it.

I'm looking for 432 systems, boards, chips, documentation, software, etc.


From handyman at sprintmail.com  Fri Dec 25 06:20:48 1998
From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: Change of email address
Message-ID: <3683831F.5B1EDC7A@sprintmail.com>

How do I change my email address on this forum.
My currenet email address is handyman@sprintmail.com
My new email address will be musicman38@mindspring.com
Phil...



From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Fri Dec 25 18:38:26 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: Ebay Kaypro 2
References: <644fe90c.36841182@aol.com>
Message-ID: <36843001.5300ACA7@bigfoot.com>

KFergason@aol.com wrote:

> my original comment was made about 30 seconds after the first msg
> pointing to it.  the auction was already closed.  I don't believe our list
> is that slow.

> it would be interesting to know why it was removed.
> also, i can't seem to find it again.  i deleted the original message with the
> url, but i would think I could search on ebay and find it, but it ain't
> showing up.

I have a feeling that the seller screwed up and put $1000 instead of $10.00 or
added one too many zeros to $100, although the $10.00 with the decimal left out
seems like a more reasonable answer.

It's still isted but you have to use completed search. It's listed at
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=51344761




From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Fri Dec 25 18:50:03 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: Change of email address
References: <3683831F.5B1EDC7A@sprintmail.com>
Message-ID: <368432BA.6C01B87C@bigfoot.com>

Phil Clayton wrote:

> How do I change my email address on this forum.
> My currenet email address is handyman@sprintmail.com
> My new email address will be musicman38@mindspring.com
> Phil...

To the best of my knowledge from my last change, you need to send an
unsubscribe message to listproc@u.washington.edu while your mail
identification id is set to your old address, and then once you get
verification from listproc, change your mail id to your new one and send
a subscribe message to the same address. You should pick up at the same
point in themessages if it goes through smoothly.



From roblwill at usaor.net  Fri Dec 25 21:54:52 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
Message-ID: <01be3083$7dd03a40$8e8ea6d1@the-general>

>
>Is the hard disk on the same SCSI bus as the floppy?
>
Yes.  When I set the floppy ID to [0], I get errors coming out the patooey.

>Right. I still wonder what chips are on that interface board...
>
I'll have to take it apart again.  That won't be until tomorrow, though.

>Now, whether you can use a different type of floppy depends on how clever
>that ROM firmware is. If it's dumb (as I expect) then it'll only work
>with the SCSI->floppy card you have, and with the 360K drive. If it's a
>bit more intellegent it might work with a 720K drive.
>
I'd say that it's fairly intelligent.  In the manual, it says that a 360k
5.25", 720k 3.5", and 1.2MB 5.25" drive were available.  It claims that any
one or all the drives could be connected.  It says nothing about a 1.44MB
3.5", though (were 1.44MB drives around in 1986?).  It supposedly can
support 9 devices, including the internal HD.  What devices, other than the
three floppies, I'm not sure.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From pechter at monmouth.com  Fri Dec 25 19:49:51 1998
From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
In-Reply-To: <3683FF04.D78822FE@bigfoot.com> from Russ Blakeman at "Dec 25, 98 03:09:25 pm"
Message-ID: <199812260150.UAA05954@monmouth.com>

> Max Eskin wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 25 Dec 1998 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:
> > > Yes.  I'm thinking that the NeXT slabs used 2.88Mb SCSI floppies, but...
> > > Can't think of any other instances at the moment, but I have heard of such
> > > a beast before.
> >
> > The PS/2 55SX (a 386 SCSI MCA machine) also had 2.88Mb SCSI floppies.
> 
> Huh? The 55SX has an ESDI controller for the HD and uses stock MFM 1.44
> floppies. It can use the floppies from other units as well Even the 56/5gSLC
> that has a SCSI interface and 2.88 mb floppy doesn't have a SCSI floppy. Where
> did you get this from?

Yeah, the PS/2 had the power on the floppy drive cable -- but they
weren't SCSI.

Bill


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 25 20:17:34 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
In-Reply-To: <01be3083$7dd03a40$8e8ea6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Dec 25, 98 07:54:52 pm
Message-ID: 

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From roblwill at usaor.net  Sat Dec 26 00:01:36 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
Message-ID: <01be3095$328219c0$939ba6d1@the-general>

>Yes, but the controllers might be different, or at least have different
>link options on them.
>
Possibly.  I thought you meant the main controller/bus.

>
>That's odd. A single SCSI bus is limited to 8 devices, but the host
>adapter counts as one of them. So it can't be all one bus...
>
My slip-up.  I re-checked the manual.  It doesn't say how many devices can
be connected at once, except the three drives and the HD.  I just remembered
the 0-9 ID setting wheel.

I'll check on the controller tomorrow.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From IVIE at cc.usu.edu  Fri Dec 25 21:15:49 1998
From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
Message-ID: <01J5RMVMB6IU91W2D3@cc.usu.edu>

> I know it was mentioned here before that the rz23 drives don't autostart.
> Does anyone know if older macintosh's (say, an se30) can give the device 
> start sequence?  or if there's any simple way to force the drive to start
> anyway?

It's possible to make the drive autostart; it's some sort of settable
option in the drive's firmware. The only program I've seen to manipulate
it, however, is rzdisk on the MIPS-based DECstations. Using rzdisk under
Ultrix, you can configure the drive to spin up on power on. I believe
there's also a version of RZDISK available for Alpha VMS, but I've not
encountered it there.

Roger Ivie
ivie@cc.usu.edu


From allisonp at world.std.com  Fri Dec 25 21:26:30 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
Message-ID: <199812260326.AA19970@world.std.com>


DEC 3100 seris system had RX24(720k) and RX23(1.44) compatable floppies.
They had a SCSI interface as well.  I believe the drives were stock drives 
with a SCSI->Floppy bridge.

Allison



From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Fri Dec 25 21:37:00 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
In-Reply-To: <199812260332.WAA01866@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA00986; Fri, 25 Dec 1998 13:12:46 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 25 Dec 1998 rhblake@bigfoot.com wrote:

> Huh? The 55SX has an ESDI controller for the HD and uses stock MFM 1.44
> floppies. It can use the floppies from other units as well Even the 56/5gSLC
> that has a SCSI interface and 2.88 mb floppy doesn't have a SCSI floppy. Where
> did you get this from?

Dunno. Whatever 386 PS/2 w/SCSI and MCA. Seemed like a 2.88 at the time.

----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Fri Dec 25 21:54:15 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
In-Reply-To: <01J5RMVMB6IU91W2D3@cc.usu.edu> from "Roger Ivie" at Dec 25, 1998 08:15:49 PM
Message-ID: <199812260354.UAA09116@calico.litterbox.com>

> It's possible to make the drive autostart; it's some sort of settable
> option in the drive's firmware. The only program I've seen to manipulate
> it, however, is rzdisk on the MIPS-based DECstations. Using rzdisk under
> Ultrix, you can configure the drive to spin up on power on. I believe
> there's also a version of RZDISK available for Alpha VMS, but I've not
> encountered it there.
> 
> Roger Ivie
> ivie@cc.usu.edu
> 
THANK YOU!  Armed with that knowledge I discovered DECUS has MACRO source
for a VMS utility called RZ_SPINUP.  It configures the drive the same way.
Once I get my 3100 here I can tweak the drives appropriately. :)


-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From pechter at monmouth.com  Fri Dec 25 22:30:22 1998
From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
In-Reply-To: <199812260354.UAA09116@calico.litterbox.com> from Jim Strickland at "Dec 25, 98 08:54:15 pm"
Message-ID: <199812260430.XAA06257@monmouth.com>

> > It's possible to make the drive autostart; it's some sort of settable
> > option in the drive's firmware. The only program I've seen to manipulate
> > it, however, is rzdisk on the MIPS-based DECstations. Using rzdisk under
> > Ultrix, you can configure the drive to spin up on power on. I believe
> > there's also a version of RZDISK available for Alpha VMS, but I've not
> > encountered it there.
> > 
> > Roger Ivie
> > ivie@cc.usu.edu
> > 
> THANK YOU!  Armed with that knowledge I discovered DECUS has MACRO source
> for a VMS utility called RZ_SPINUP.  It configures the drive the same way.
> Once I get my 3100 here I can tweak the drives appropriately. :)
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jim Strickland
> jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com

The scsi command on FreeBSD lets you set the SCSI mode page for spin up
on power on as well...

Bill


From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Fri Dec 25 22:42:43 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
In-Reply-To: <199812260430.XAA06257@monmouth.com> from "Bill Pechter" at Dec 25, 1998 11:30:22 PM
Message-ID: <199812260442.VAA09460@calico.litterbox.com>

> > THANK YOU!  Armed with that knowledge I discovered DECUS has MACRO source
> > for a VMS utility called RZ_SPINUP.  It configures the drive the same way.
> > Once I get my 3100 here I can tweak the drives appropriately. :)
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Jim Strickland
> > jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
> 
> The scsi command on FreeBSD lets you set the SCSI mode page for spin up
> on power on as well...
> 
> Bill
> 
Ah.  Good to know.  Alas I don't have a FreeBSD system in the house, only
Linux.  But it can wait until my vms machine gets here. :)

-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From marvin at rain.org  Fri Dec 25 22:54:55 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: Ebay Kaypro 2
References: <644fe90c.36841182@aol.com>
Message-ID: <36846C1F.4210182B@rain.org>

KFergason@aol.com wrote:
> 
> my original comment was made about 30 seconds after the first msg
> pointing to it.  the auction was already closed.  I don't believe our list
> is that slow.

I posted the notice about 10pm PST on the 24th, and the auction ended about
5AM PST on the 25th.


> it would be interesting to know why it was removed.
> also, i can't seem to find it again.  i deleted the original message with the
> url, but i would think I could search on ebay and find it, but it ain't
> showing up.

I just checked and the URL is still good.  If you want to check again, the
URL is:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=51344761

Just out of curiosity, I also checked the bidding history in case the seller
posted a comment as to why the auction ended early, and nothing showed
there.


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Fri Dec 25 23:49:46 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: Spin Up drives on Mac (was: Re: SCSI floppies)
In-Reply-To: <199812250428.VAA03968@calico.litterbox.com>
References:  from "Zane H. Healy" at
 Dec 24, 1998 07:44:19 PM
Message-ID: 

Jim Strickland asked:
>Other topic:
>I know it was mentioned here before that the rz23 drives don't autostart.
>Does anyone know if older macintosh's (say, an se30) can give the device
>start sequence?  or if there's any simple way to force the drive to start
>anyway?

One method would be to use the "FWB Hard Disk Toolkit", that is the method
I use on my PowerMac to spin up a pair of 2Gb HP drives.  I've heard that
there are shareware or freeware alternatives, but haven't investigated them.

In your case, the problem with the "FWB Hard Disk Toolkit" is that it would
be cheaper to get a Mac compatible Hard Drive that is probably larger than
a RZ23, than it would be to get the Toolkit.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Sat Dec 26 00:21:16 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
Message-ID: <327fbd7.3684805c@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/25/98 10:41:57 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
kurtkilg@geocities.com writes:

> Dunno. Whatever 386 PS/2 w/SCSI and MCA. Seemed like a 2.88 at the time.

i believe that would be the 8556/8557 models. they had built in scsi and those
2.88 drives. the 95xx series did as well. 

david


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Sat Dec 26 01:07:29 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: Ebay Kaypro 2
In-Reply-To: <3683FBC3.EE4C31FF@bigfoot.com>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 25 Dec 1998, Russ Blakeman wrote:

> Can you imagine just the fee for inserting this ad, whether a joke or not and whether it sold or
> not?

$2.  You pay a percentage only if it actually consumates.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Sat Dec 26 01:15:11 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: FS (quick): Tandy 1000 items, monitor, TL2, keyboard
Message-ID: <36848CFD.AD2EECEC@bigfoot.com>


FOR SALE - Tandy 1000 Series items, all in like new condition:

*Tandy 1000 model TL/2 main unit. 250-1602

Specifications can be seen in the pages at
http://support.tandy.com/support_computer/1220.htm
Unit has 40 mb IDE hard disk with controller, 3.5" and 5.25" floppy
drives. Can use either a composite or CGA monitor, TV (using modulator
or VCR as a modulator) or you can optionally add a VGA card and monitor
(see item at above site for specifics on this). Has 768K RAM, 80286
processor, 4 open slots. Unit DOES NOT include monitor or keyboard. The
keyboard can either be the enhanced 101 that Tandy made for it or a
generic 101 (switchable XT/AT type preferably) one. Has DOS 3.3 and
Deskmate in ROM.

$20 plus actual USPS shipping (about 25 lbs)

*Tandy CM-11 Hi Resolution CGA monitor  25-1024/A/C

Specifications can be seen in the pages at
http://support.tandy.com/support_accessories/6011.htm
Monitor in beautiful condition, very clean crisp video that can be used
on a Randy or standard machine with CGA output. Has been run tested for
12 hours to insure that there are no heat problems. A very nice addtion
to your Tandy system.

$20 plus actual USPS shipping (about 24 lbs)

*Tandy 1000 90 key scultured keyboard (8 pin DIN)

This is the standard white keyboard used on the earlier 1000 series.
This keyboard is near new, was a sealed spare with vitrually no use.
Looks as if it were just made and operates as if it were just made as
well.

$10 plus actual USPS shipping (about 5-6 lbs)

Contact me SOON by direct email at RHBLAKE@BIGFOOT.COM
Items are located in central Kentucky and ship from zip 40144. Serious
inquiries only. US shipping addresses only, including APO/FPO. Payment
to be made by money order or cashier's check in advance.

Items will go on auction if no responses by January 2nd, 1999




From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Sat Dec 26 01:22:43 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
References: <327fbd7.3684805c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <36848EC2.348B4194@bigfoot.com>

SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 12/25/98 10:41:57 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> kurtkilg@geocities.com writes:
>
> > Dunno. Whatever 386 PS/2 w/SCSI and MCA. Seemed like a 2.88 at the time.
>
> i believe that would be the 8556/8557 models. they had built in scsi and those
> 2.88 drives. the 95xx series did as well.

Still MFM floppies though, even in the ones with a separate SCSI controller. I've
taken 2.88 floppies from 56's and put them into 80's that even had an ESDI
attachment controller in them. Even the IBM hardware maintenance manual doesn't
state anything of SCSI in the floppies in any of the 85xx and 95xx models.



From handyman at sprintmail.com  Fri Dec 25 13:59:46 1998
From: handyman at sprintmail.com (Phil Clayton)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: Apple 1
References: <3683831F.5B1EDC7A@sprintmail.com> <368432BA.6C01B87C@bigfoot.com>
Message-ID: <3683EEB1.D92D3919@sprintmail.com>

Pretty interesting picture and information on the Apple 1 computer.

http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~edtracy/apple1.html

Phil..





From heavy at ctesc.net  Sat Dec 26 03:23:12 1998
From: heavy at ctesc.net (Jim Weiler)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: Apple 1
In-Reply-To: <3683EEB1.D92D3919@sprintmail.com>
References: <3683831F.5B1EDC7A@sprintmail.com>
 <368432BA.6C01B87C@bigfoot.com>
Message-ID: 

Phil Clayton  wrote on Fri, 25 Dec 1998 14:59:46 -0500

>Pretty interesting picture and information on the Apple 1 computer.
>
>http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~edtracy/apple1.html
>
>Phil..

Beautiful site... I poked around in there a bit, but didn't see what I
really wanted to see... a circuit board design for the Apple 1. Anybody
know if such exists, without having one of these artifacts in hand? I've
got a number of the early MC68000 (gold & ceramic) chips that would have
been used in this circuitry. -Jim Weiler
             "I wish I was deep, instead of just macho."
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     mailto:heavy@ctesc.net  Jim Weiler  mailto:native-sun@usa.net
      http://home.talkcity.com/TechnologyWay/heavyside/index.html
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com  Sat Dec 26 10:48:09 1998
From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
In-Reply-To: <36848EC2.348B4194@bigfoot.com>
References: <327fbd7.3684805c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981226084809.00972100@mail.bluefeathertech.com>

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From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Sat Dec 26 11:01:05 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
References: <327fbd7.3684805c@aol.com> <3.0.5.32.19981226084809.00972100@mail.bluefeathertech.com>
Message-ID: <36851650.CC1FE464@bigfoot.com>

Bruce Lane wrote:

> SCSI floppies do indeed exist. I own one, as I suspect others on the list do. I discovered that they had wide use in the Motorola Delta-8000 series VMEBus systems.
>
> I own a few PS/2's as well, and I've yet to see SCSI floppies in any of them. I would think one would be more likely to find them in the bigger boxes, such as the AS/400 or RS/6000.

The AS/400 uses mostly SCSI devices. I haven't yet seen any units that have come with a floppy drive on them (I've only dealt with the larger servers) but I'm fairly sure that a floppy
option would be scsi. Now you have me curious enough to check out tech manuals at work.



From zmerch at 30below.com  Sat Dec 26 11:50:25 1998
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: Good for CoCo, Re: SCSI floppies
In-Reply-To: <6c90a4ef.3683530a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981226125025.0091b720@mail.30below.com>

Once upon a midnight dreary, Innfogra@aol.com had spoken clearly:

>I have a bunch of new SCSI to floppy only controllers. They are of NCR
>manufacture. I got them from the Biin project, about 1991 so they would run
>at least 1.2s, maybe 1.44s.
>
>$5 each plus shipping. If there is any interest I will get more info. Replies
>should go off list. Contact me at whoagiii@aol.com.
>
>Happy Holidays.
>Paxton Hoag


Anyone interested in putting a 1.2Meg or 1.4Meg floppy on their Tandy CoCo,
would do well to investigate this... AFAIR, there was only one HD floppy
controller for the CoCo, called "The Eliminator" from FHL (Frank Hogg Lab.)
Beautifully engineered system, but *extremely* expensive, and (of course)
not compatible with DECB (a.k.a. an OS-9 only System).

Of course, you won't be able to use that SCSI floppy under DECB either...
but you can use any of the existing CoCo SCSI controllers to access it
under OS-9. Depending on how completely you can access the SCSI bus, it
might be fairly easy to write a program to be able to access other floppy
formats on your CoCo.

HTH, and Happy Holidaze! ;-)
Roger "Merch" Merchberger


From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Sat Dec 26 12:13:09 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppy controllers
Message-ID: <199812261813.LAA12117@calico.litterbox.com>

I wonder if these things would work with my GS and let me read PC disks with it?
This sounds like a fun thing. :)  What was that price again?
-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 26 12:09:16 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
In-Reply-To: <36848EC2.348B4194@bigfoot.com> from "Russ Blakeman" at Dec 26, 98 01:22:43 am
Message-ID: 

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From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Sat Dec 26 14:03:42 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: ZWX-0248-62 main unit CHEEEP
Message-ID: <3685411D.6B9507A7@bigfoot.com>

Time to clear the closets! I have one great condition ZDS ZWX-0248-62
(aka Z-248) unit as follows:

*Case - has two external bays, 4 internal. Filler plate on one external
*Power supply - standard Z-248 power supply in great condition
*Motherboard - standard 286 Z-248 motherboard
*Both drive bay inserts (the steel drive holders that slip in/out)
*Hercules/parallel video board - use with a monochrome monitor for
outstanding graphics, even in Win 3.xx
*ZDS I/O board with 1 serial, 1 parallel
*MFM and FDD controller (no cables) Should take both sizes of 3.5" and
5.25" floppies.
*Memory expansion board - gives the system a total 640k base memory,
1024k addition ext. memory (allows Windows to run nice and fast!)

The unit does NOT have a hard drive, floppy drive or the FD or HD
cables. This saves weight in shipping since most of us have closets full
of 360k, 1.2, etc drives and tons of MFM hard drives.

How much? $10 plus actual USPS shipping. This mostly covers my time in
packing it up and hauling it to the post office. (I've seen the memory
upgrades go for $20 easy by themselves) It seems to weigh in the area of
around 15 lbs. My zip is 40144 in case anyone wants to estimate
shipping. Payment by money or cashier's checks only, prepaid. This is,
if anything, a cheap source of upgrade and parts for someone with an
in-use Z248. Add a floppy, HD and cables and you have a working unit for
next to nothing as well. Should someone really need a floppy drive, all
I can offer is a good original black faced 360k that came in the unit
new, free with the unit, but it will add shipping weight. I can also
toss in a Seagate MFM hard drive but since I have no cables the drive
will not be guaranteed to work.

I need this out of my way soon or it goes to the scrap heap. Let me know
by January 2nd if you're interested, by direct email to
RHBLAKE@BIGFOOT.COM

Serious US/APO/FPO addresses only.
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From scott at saskatoon.com  Sat Dec 26 15:44:00 1998
From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: Apple 1
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 26 Dec 1998, Jim Weiler wrote:

> I've
> got a number of the early MC68000 (gold & ceramic) chips that would have
> been used in this circuitry. -Jim Weiler

Uhh, the 68000 didn't exist in the days of the Apple 1.  The apple 1 used
a 6502 (or a 6800 IIRC -- is that what you meant?).

ttyl
srw



From red at bears.org  Sat Dec 26 15:49:21 1998
From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 24 Dec 1998, Zane H. Healy wrote:

> Yes.  I'm thinking that the NeXT slabs used 2.88Mb SCSI floppies, but...
> Can't think of any other instances at the moment, but I have heard of such
> a beast before.

The NeXT floppies were not SCSI interfaced. They have a proprietary
interface. There were aftermarket 2880k external floppies with SCSI
interfaces that would give an '030 cube (without its own floppy
controller) or a Cube that'd been upgraded to '040 (and thus lacked the
milled opening for a floppy disk on the front panel) a floppy disk drive.
I have one of the more popular versions of this disk drive---a PLI
SuperFloppy.

Also, SCSI floppy disks were offered on some of the earlier HP 9000-700
series machines that also lacked floppy controllers. The 715/60, /80, and
a few others had onboard floppy controllers that I believe support
standard PC-type 1440k floppy disk drives. I can't test this because I
need a keyboard interface (what a thoughtful design! q: ) for my 715/80
and have been thus far unable to locate one.

These don't even come close to being within the scope of this list,
though.

The floppy disk drive that was an option on the old SGI Iris Indigo R3000
machines was also SCSI interfaced, and I believe had a 1440k capacity.

-- 
ok
r.					r e d  @  b e a r s . o r g
					===========================
					[ urs longa | vita brevis ]



From heavy at ctesc.net  Sat Dec 26 17:54:13 1998
From: heavy at ctesc.net (Jim Weiler)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: Apple 1
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

>On Sat, 26 Dec 1998, Jim Weiler wrote:
>
>> I've
>> got a number of the early MC68000 (gold & ceramic) chips that would have
>> been used in this circuitry. -Jim Weiler
>
>Uhh, the 68000 didn't exist in the days of the Apple 1.  The apple 1 used
>a 6502 (or a 6800 IIRC -- is that what you meant?).
>
>ttyl
>srw

Nope, sorry, my mistake. What I have is the 68000. I misread the text
there, and jumped to an extra zero. Nevermind. I wasn't into computers that
far back, but I still think it'd be kewl to build one of those up from
scratch. -Jim Weiler
             "I wish I was deep, instead of just macho."
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     mailto:heavy@ctesc.net  Jim Weiler  mailto:native-sun@usa.net
      http://home.talkcity.com/TechnologyWay/heavyside/index.html
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


From Innfogra at aol.com  Sat Dec 26 19:12:05 1998
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies - Wang drives
Message-ID: <5432313d.36858965@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/25/98 5:02:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
roblwill@usaor.net writes:

>  I'd say that it's fairly intelligent.  In the manual, it says that a 360k
>  5.25", 720k 3.5", and 1.2MB 5.25" drive were available.  It claims that any
>  one or all the drives could be connected.  It says nothing about a 1.44MB
>  3.5", though (were 1.44MB drives around in 1986?).  It supposedly can
>  
The Wang laptop (transportable) was a huge black machine that connected
several peripherals via it's 50 pin Centronics interface connector terminated
at the end of the chain. I have never seen a 3 1/2" floppy for it so I am not
surprised that it had only a 720 available. I don't think they made a 1.44. I
had a MO drive for them once and I know there was a CD also. You could chain
more than one hard drive too. Wang had pretty good firmware, so I am not too
surprised that they are plug and play. I have no idea how well Wang complied
with the SCSI standards.
Paxton


From roblwill at usaor.net  Sat Dec 26 22:31:02 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: video reversing
Message-ID: <01be3151$b5bfa3e0$ae8ea6d1@the-general>

Hi.

I've got an old CGA laptop.  (1988 Zenith SupersPORT).  The display is dark
blue on light blue.  I was wondering if there's any software out there that
will reverse the video so that the text is light blue, and the background is
dark blue.

ThAnX,
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From IVIE at cc.usu.edu  Sat Dec 26 22:08:20 1998
From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppy controllers
Message-ID: <01J5T316RSC68WWES1@cc.usu.edu>

> I wonder if these things would work with my GS and let me read PC disks with it?
> This sounds like a fun thing. :)  What was that price again?

I can't speak for the GS, having never used one, but one of the things I
did with Digital's SCSI floppy controller while debugging the firmware was
to hook it to an Amiga and have the Amiga use it as a hard disk....

Roger Ivie
ivie@cc.usu.edu


From donm at cts.com  Sat Dec 26 22:22:25 1998
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies - Wang drives
In-Reply-To: <5432313d.36858965@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

On Sat, 26 Dec 1998 Innfogra@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 12/25/98 5:02:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> roblwill@usaor.net writes:
> 
> >  I'd say that it's fairly intelligent.  In the manual, it says that a 360k
> >  5.25", 720k 3.5", and 1.2MB 5.25" drive were available.  It claims that any
> >  one or all the drives could be connected.  It says nothing about a 1.44MB
> >  3.5", though (were 1.44MB drives around in 1986?).  It supposedly can
> >  
> The Wang laptop (transportable) was a huge black machine that connected
> several peripherals via it's 50 pin Centronics interface connector terminated
> at the end of the chain. I have never seen a 3 1/2" floppy for it so I am not
> surprised that it had only a 720 available. I don't think they made a 1.44. I
> had a MO drive for them once and I know there was a CD also. You could chain
> more than one hard drive too. Wang had pretty good firmware, so I am not too
> surprised that they are plug and play. I have no idea how well Wang complied
> with the SCSI standards.
> Paxton
> 

If they did it like everything else that they made, they did it 'their way'!

						 - don



From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Sat Dec 26 22:50:20 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: eBay - STAN VEIT'S HISTORY OF THE PC 
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <000401be3154$67c17c60$b2f438cb@a.davie>

Publisher is selling 1000 of these (STAN VEIT'S HISTORY OF THE PC) at a flat
rate of $3 each.
See http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=51552826
I thought some others on the list may be interested.
Cheers
A



From roblwill at usaor.net  Sun Dec 27 02:35:56 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies - Wang drives
Message-ID: <01be3173$ec0c9440$aa8ea6d1@the-general>

>> The Wang laptop (transportable) was a huge black machine that connected
>> several peripherals via it's 50 pin Centronics interface connector
terminated
>> at the end of the chain. I have never seen a 3 1/2" floppy for it so I am
not
>> surprised that it had only a 720 available. I don't think they made a
1.44. I
>> had a MO drive for them once and I know there was a CD also. You could
chain
>> more than one hard drive too. Wang had pretty good firmware, so I am not
too
>> surprised that they are plug and play. I have no idea how well Wang
complied
>> with the SCSI standards.
>> Paxton
>>
>
>If they did it like everything else that they made, they did it 'their
way'!
>
> - don
>
They didn't do the printer their way'.  It's a Brother EP-41-45 thermal
typewriter printer just stuck into the case.  Does anyone know what speed
the modems in those things were?  Mine's loaded with the 1MB RAM option, and
modem, but have no idea if it's actually useful or not.  One other question:
How do I access the RAM above 640k?  Do I need a special driver, or does it
somehow have 1MB base RAM (Is that even possible??)
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318
?



From foxnhare at goldrush.com  Sun Dec 27 00:01:36 1998
From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: Commodore Pet 2001
References: <199812260802.AAA04815@lists5.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <3685CD3E.A61F18D4@goldrush.com>

> From: Phil Clayton 
> Subject: Re: Commodore Pet 2001
> 
> Thanks Larry for all the information on the Pet,I  feel like a kid on Christmas with my
> new find..
> Like I said in 1978 this is the very first computer that I got bug from.
> It was in a window of a High-tech Gadget type store with a great
> graphics demo running.

I have some of the original Commodore graphics demos (which they sold on
tape), there was the one with bar graphs and business stuff and another one
with like a mouse in a cage and star wars ships (not very exciting nowadays as
they were then), also one called mandala which is in ML and does a kalidescope effect.

> I inquired about it from the Clerk there who knew nothing
> about it. Nor did I, but it was pure Lust on my part with the thought of owning
> such an obviously powerful computer. When he told me the price of $599.00

My first view was from the cover of the October 1978 Popular Science:
http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/PSPETSM.JPG
The PET there was obviously one of the prototypes (note the rounded case, from
what I understand it was wooden, also note the cheap wood-grain contact paper
over the case. kinda looked neat though.)

> I know it would be some time before I could own it. So now only 21 years later
> I have one.

Yeah I think that sums it up for most of us classic computerists...  (grin) 
or better yet 'I have every computer that I wanted.'

> 
> I will take look see if its the earliest version Basic or the upgraded one.
> > Now when it powers up if it reads:
> > *** COMMODORE BASIC ***
> > you have the original classic (read 'bug-ridden') ROMs.if it reads:
> > ### COMMODORE BASIC ###
> > you have the 'upgrade' (mostly bug fixed) ROMs.

> > The earlier units used butchered SANYO cassette players 
> Mine has the the Sanyo Cassette with White keysAlso the border around the screen is blue
> not White or Black like some others I have seen..
> 
> Does this indicate an earlier Pet ?

Yes it does; so far so good.  (Never seen a white trim myself unless you are
referring of the plastic frames on the later plastic-cased PET models (there
was still a black trim around the picture tube though.)


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Sun Dec 27 00:59:17 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies - Wang drives
In-Reply-To: <01be3173$ec0c9440$aa8ea6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 27 Dec 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote:

> They didn't do the printer their way'.  It's a Brother EP-41-45 thermal
> typewriter printer just stuck into the case.  Does anyone know what speed
> the modems in those things were?  Mine's loaded with the 1MB RAM option, and
> modem, but have no idea if it's actually useful or not.  One other question:
> How do I access the RAM above 640k?  Do I need a special driver, or does it
> somehow have 1MB base RAM (Is that even possible??)

Get yourself a memory manager like QEMM.  Or if you load DOS 6.0 you
should be able to use MemMaker to open up hi memory.  Basically you need
to load HIMEM.SYS in your CONFIG.SYS to open up hi-memory for DOS and
stuff.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From erd at infinet.com  Sun Dec 27 10:19:55 1998
From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: Apple 1
In-Reply-To:  from "Jim Weiler" at Dec 26, 98 05:54:13 pm
Message-ID: <199812271619.LAA28945@user2.infinet.com>


> 
> >On Sat, 26 Dec 1998, Jim Weiler wrote:
> >
> >> I've
> >> got a number of the early MC68000 (gold & ceramic) chips that would have
> >> been used in this circuitry. -Jim Weiler

As has been pointed out, Apples used the 6502 (or descendents).  On the 68K 
topic, I used to work for a company that made intellegent (synchronous) serial
cards for PDP-11 and VAXen.  My former boss still has XC68000 S/N 424.  The
very first run was hand numbered; we were told that 1-400 were for in-house
Motorola projects.  We only got one because our company was so persistent
to the sales office that they shipped us a chip to shut us up.

The fun part is that the chip has bugs.  Some of the instructions (I don't 
know which ones) cause a microcode exception and the processor restarts
the microcode engine, resulting in delays of several microseconds.  The
instruction completes, but not in the advertised number of machine cycles.
This wasn't a real problem for us, but some early 68K designs borrowed
heavily from existing Z-80 designs, including processor driven DRAM refresh.
These boards just lost the contents of memory whenever certain instructions
were executed.  We had 32K of 2114 1Kx4 SRAMs.  Our board performed oddly,
but it still worked.  AFAIK, all MC68000 chips work to spec.

Anyone want to buy a vintage 1982, gold and ceramic Motorola MC68000?  Make
offer.  Not available in stores.  Not found on eBay.

-ethan


From Watzman at ibm.net  Sun Dec 27 11:35:52 1998
From: Watzman at ibm.net (Barry A. Watzman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: Reverse video on laptop
Message-ID: <000701be31bf$69ce60c0$9dbb6420@barrysp2>

It's fairly easy to reverse the video on a CGA computer (laptop or otherwise).  All that you have to do is write a different attribute byte to every character of the display once.  This will reverse the display and, generally (in terms of DOS character programs) it will remain reversed unless another program writes directly to video memory.  I wrote a program to do this, and I probably still have it.  If you will E-Mail me directly, I will send it to you if I can find it.  You can run it in autoexec.bat, or manually, either one.

Barry Watzman

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From eric at brouhaha.com  Sun Dec 27 13:17:38 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: Apple 1
In-Reply-To: <199812271619.LAA28945@user2.infinet.com> (message from Ethan
	Dicks on Sun, 27 Dec 1998 11:19:55 -0500 (EST))
References: <199812271619.LAA28945@user2.infinet.com>
Message-ID: <19981227191738.25174.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Ethan Dicks  wrote:
> AFAIK, all MC68000 chips work to spec.

They had various bugs that were sometimes mentioned in later data sheets.
For instance, early parts would generate the UDS* and/or LDS* strobes even
on accesses that cause an address exception.  This can lead to memory
corruption.  Although since usually an address exception means that the
system (or process) failed, it usually didn't matter.  Which is probably
why they didn't find it early on.

Very early parts had a slightly different set of shift and rotate
instructions than later parts.  This was mentioned in some early data sheets,
but not in more recent ones.

Eric


From ddameron at earthlink.net  Sun Dec 27 14:23:54 1998
From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <199812272023.MAA19699@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

Hello all,
At 11:16 AM 12/24/98 -0500, you wrote:

>I did however do some major tuning tricks on the cmos and things like 
>windows swap drive.  Some of those old boards if you take the cmos defaults 
>you get a very pokey system often 1/3 the performance or worse.
>
>Allison
>
Yes. I've been using a 386DX with 128k cache with Win3.1 and Netscape 3.0.
Doesn't seem significantly slower than my friend's P90 with W95. Sometimes
Netscape crashes with some .JPG files (GP fault in the VGA driver) and I
have to start over.
Haven't tried much newer, it doesn't seem right to require a 300MHz
processor and 64MB ram to mostly read email, much less type mail messages!
I did adjust several things, like remove smartdrv's "buffering" for the HD, etc.
-Dave



From tim at thereviewguide.com  Sun Dec 27 10:51:22 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:32 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <199812272023.MAA19699@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981227165122.007cf750@mail.thereviewguide.com>

>Yes. I've been using a 386DX with 128k cache with Win3.1 and Netscape 3.0.
>Doesn't seem significantly slower than my friend's P90 with W95. Sometimes
>Netscape crashes with some .JPG files (GP fault in the VGA driver) and I
>have to start over.
>Haven't tried much newer, it doesn't seem right to require a 300MHz
>processor and 64MB ram to mostly read email, much less type mail messages!
>I did adjust several things, like remove smartdrv's "buffering" for the
HD, etc.
>-Dave

That's why it's Windows 95.  It takes forever to boot.  Anyway, cache's the
only thing that makes the K6-2 slower than a PII at the same clock speed.
If I remove my cache entirely on my 200MHz MMX system, then it performs
considerably slower than my 486 with 136K (IE 8K on chip, 128K on the
motherboard) cache.  Also the bus speed matters a lot, especially on a
pre-486 (or 486SX with 487) system if you're doing heavy math, etc.  I
don't know why Intel's 'low cost' processors are always so bone headed:
486SX, which removed the one true thing that made it a 486, 8088, removing
the crucial 16-bit bus of the 8086, 386SX, which worked pretty well, but
still halfed the external bandwidth (did Intel ever make a cheap version of
a 286?), and now we've got Celeron: Until the Celron A, no cache at all... 

Tim
------------------------------------------------------*
*Ever onward, always forward.			      *
*Tim D. Hotze Panel Member, The Ultimate Web Host List*
*http://www.webhostlist.com worldsfate@geocities.com  *
------------------------------------------------------*


From roblwill at usaor.net  Sun Dec 27 17:46:13 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies - Wang drives
Message-ID: <01be31f3$161bfee0$668ea6d1@the-general>

>
>Get yourself a memory manager like QEMM.  Or if you load DOS 6.0 you
>should be able to use MemMaker to open up hi memory.  Basically you need
>to load HIMEM.SYS in your CONFIG.SYS to open up hi-memory for DOS and
>stuff.
>
Well, the WANG has it's own special version of DOS 3.2 (or 3.3 - can't
remember).  I can't just load any version of dos on it, and expect it to
boot.  It had a special "WOS" (WANG OS) file or something that makes it work
right.  If I try to boot off of even another version of DOS 3.2, it won't
work (even if the disk is formatted on the WANG).

What's the lowest version of DOS that HIMEM.SYS works under (never tried it
below 5.0)?

One last (I think) about this thing:  I've heard that it has an in-ROM word
processing program, and a non-DOS operating system.  How do I get to these,
since when I got the computer, it was already loaded with the DOS-emulator.

ThAnX,
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From roblwill at usaor.net  Sun Dec 27 17:51:44 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <01be31f3$dbc83e60$668ea6d1@the-general>

If Intel's 8088 was stripped of half it's bus width, why was it used so much
more than the 8086?  One of the few computers that I've seen with an 8086 is
the WANG WLTC (in the SCSI drive string).  With being only 4 MHz (I think),
it way out-performs my 8088 8MHz Zenith (I just wish it wasn't so dang big).
I remember someone on here saying that an 8086 and 8088 were
interchangeable.  Is this true, and would there be an advantage?
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318


-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Hotze 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Sunday, December 27, 1998 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
>
>That's why it's Windows 95.  It takes forever to boot.  Anyway, cache's the
>only thing that makes the K6-2 slower than a PII at the same clock speed.
>If I remove my cache entirely on my 200MHz MMX system, then it performs
>considerably slower than my 486 with 136K (IE 8K on chip, 128K on the
>motherboard) cache.  Also the bus speed matters a lot, especially on a
>pre-486 (or 486SX with 487) system if you're doing heavy math, etc.  I
>don't know why Intel's 'low cost' processors are always so bone headed:
>486SX, which removed the one true thing that made it a 486, 8088, removing
>the crucial 16-bit bus of the 8086, 386SX, which worked pretty well, but
>still halfed the external bandwidth (did Intel ever make a cheap version of
>a 286?), and now we've got Celeron: Until the Celron A, no cache at all...
>
>Tim
>------------------------------------------------------*
>*Ever onward, always forward.       *
>*Tim D. Hotze Panel Member, The Ultimate Web Host List*
>*http://www.webhostlist.com worldsfate@geocities.com  *
>------------------------------------------------------*
>



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 27 13:28:47 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: Commodore Pet 2001
In-Reply-To: <3685CD3E.A61F18D4@goldrush.com> from "Larry Anderson" at Dec 26, 98 10:01:36 pm
Message-ID: 

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From allisonp at world.std.com  Sun Dec 27 15:14:49 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: Apple 1
Message-ID: <199812272114.AA01822@world.std.com>


were executed.  We had 32K of 2114 1Kx4 SRAMs.  Our board performed oddly,



Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981227172311.007f26e0@mail.thereviewguide.com>

>If Intel's 8088 was stripped of half it's bus width, why was it used so
>much more than the 8086?  One of the few computers that I've seen with an 

Price, or something.  The 8086 was the same thing as an 8088, but with a
full 16-bit bus, which was important for almost everything in those days
(IE before you had an on-chip cache for frequently used operations, an on
chip FPU for 3D/math, and all kinds of stuff like that.)

>8086 is the WANG WLTC (in the SCSI drive string).  With being only 4 MHz
(I >think), it way out-performs my 8088 8MHz Zenith (I just wish it wasn't
so >dang big). I remember someone on here saying that an 8086 and 8088 were
>interchangeable.  Is this true, and would there be an advantage?

I don't know if they're interchangable, but I'd think that you could swap a
8088 into an 8086 motherboard.  Remember, it's the same processor up to the
bus, where the 8088's got a bone-headed 8-bit bus and the 8086's got a
16-bit one.  The IBM PC, IIRC, used the 8088 because it WAS a 16-bit
processor (looked good on ads), and thus could take advantage of 16-bit
power, but with an 8-bit bus, which saved on cost.  This is also why it
performed so poorly.  Most of the IBM PC's (until more recently than you'd
think) cut corners in one way or another.  The important thing about the 16
bit bus is the memory access, and you're practically halfing that.  I think
they made an 8MHz 8086.  The IBM used a 4.77MHz 8088.  My XT (and I'm the
first person to open the case since the XT was orionally sold in 1985) has
an AMD 8088, as this is when Intel and AMD shared designs and fabs, to some
extent.  (Anyone got history on how they split?  What was it over?  All I
know is that by the time of the 386, they had gone their seperate ways).

Tim
------------------------------------------------------*
*Ever onward, always forward.			      *
*Tim D. Hotze Panel Member, The Ultimate Web Host List*
*http://www.webhostlist.com worldsfate@geocities.com  *
------------------------------------------------------*


From tim at thereviewguide.com  Sun Dec 27 11:30:23 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: AMD 29000 series
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981227173023.007f2210@mail.thereviewguide.com>

Hi.  I read about the AMD 29000 series microprocessors, and they seemed to
be pretty interesting.  Does anyone have any examples of micros that used
such a processor?  (And: Does anyone have one that they'd want to get rid
of with compensation?)

Tim
------------------------------------------------------*
*Ever onward, always forward.			      *
*Tim D. Hotze Panel Member, The Ultimate Web Host List*
*http://www.webhostlist.com worldsfate@geocities.com  *
------------------------------------------------------*


From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com  Sun Dec 27 16:49:42 1998
From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <01be31f3$dbc83e60$668ea6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 27 Dec 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote:

> If Intel's 8088 was stripped of half it's bus width, why was it used so much
> more than the 8086?  One of the few computers that I've seen with an 8086 is
> the WANG WLTC (in the SCSI drive string).  With being only 4 MHz (I think),
> it way out-performs my 8088 8MHz Zenith (I just wish it wasn't so dang big).
> I remember someone on here saying that an 8086 and 8088 were
> interchangeable.  Is this true, and would there be an advantage?

When IBM ELS were designing the original 5150, 16-bit cards would have driven
the cost out of their US$4,000.00 retail target range, so they went with the
crippled 8088. A decision that, in hindsight, makes about as much sense as
including a cassette drive and (what was it???) 16K RAM on the first model.


> --
>                  -Jason Willgruber
>                (roblwill@usaor.net)
>                   ICQ#: 1730318
> 
> 

-- 
David Wollmann
DST / DST Data Conversion
http://www.ibmhelp.com/

ICQ: 10742063
AIM: FathomS36



From ddameron at earthlink.net  Sun Dec 27 16:55:27 1998
From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <199812272255.OAA23162@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

At 04:15 PM 12/27/98 -0500, Allison wrote:
>
>Either buggy VGA driver or not enough ram.  I found NS would do that with 
>8mb and with 12mb it wouldn't!

Yes it did it with 8M, and sometimes now with 16Mb. The last was with some
of the very interesting Moffett field computer museum images.
By the way, I found the 1975 Volume of the UK journal "Radio and Electronic
Engineering". Several interesting 25 year review articles under the title
"25th anniversary of the stored program computer" Yes, maybe many will
dispute the 25 years.
Some of the articles so far I don't exactly agree, such as valves started to
decline (number in service) by 1950. The era of the transistor was from 1950
to 1964, etc.
>
>
>You do want it to cache on read from the HD, it helps.  The exception is 
>with some IDE and SCSI drives there is hardware caching and smartdrv 
>just adds software to slow things down.

Yes still cache just not (double) buffering. With the IDE hardware, may be
called triple buffering. The HD never seemed to stop!
-Dave



From allisonp at world.std.com  Sun Dec 27 17:12:45 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <199812272312.AA17088@world.std.com>








-----Original Message-----
From: David Wollmann 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Sunday, December 27, 1998 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade


>On Sun, 27 Dec 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote:
>
>
>When IBM ELS were designing the original 5150, 16-bit cards would have
driven
>the cost out of their US$4,000.00 retail target range, so they went with
the
>crippled 8088. A decision that, in hindsight, makes about as much sense as
>including a cassette drive and (what was it???) 16K RAM on the first model.
>
>
The tape drive was actually a useful idea, which should have been continued
all the way throughout the PS/2 line.  It allowed whoever was using the
computer to actually make use of the ROM BASIC.  The floppies aren't
available in ROM BASIC, and once a program is typed in, there's no way to
save it.  The cassette drive worked in the same way that the cassette drive
in TRS-80's did.  It acted as the storage device in ROM BASIC.  In fact, I
don't even think the PC came with a cable to connect it to a tape deck.  You
had to run down to RadioShack and pick up a TRS-80 cassette cable.

I think I actually have an entire 60-minute tape full of PC-BASIC programs
(somewhere).  I think one of the not-so-smart things that IBM did was to
remove the cassette interface and to keep the now-useless ROM-BASIC in
there.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318





From roblwill at usaor.net  Sun Dec 27 20:06:46 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <01be3206$b8a0efa0$4c8ea6d1@the-general>

Actually, Netscape still goes wacky with 32 MB RAM, and a 4.3gig HD on a
P200.  I think that some of the free browsers (IE, Opera, Mosaic, even
NETTAMER) outperform the overpriced netscrape.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318


>>Either buggy VGA driver or not enough ram.  I found NS would do that with
>>8mb and with 12mb it wouldn't!
>




From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sun Dec 27 17:53:56 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: VT420 Terminal to LA75 Printer
Message-ID: 

I've no idea if these count as classic hardware, but the PDP-11/73 they're
attached to does.

Anyway, my long quest for a DEC printer is doubly at a end.  I'm waiting
for UPS to deliever one, and I was just given one.  It's the simple Classic
Computer collecting rule, if you're searching for something, once you find
one, you'll be swamped.

Anyway, I've got the printer connected to the printer port on the VT420,
and am now trying to figure out how to set it up.  Does anyone know what
are the proper settings for having a LA75 connected to the VT420?  It looks
as it the only setting that can be changed are on the terminal.

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Sun Dec 27 17:53:50 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: XT items on Ebay
Message-ID: <3686C88C.F96640C9@bigfoot.com>

In case anyone cares, I posted a nice Boca memory card for PC/XT/AT
machines on ebay at
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=51888990
and an XT replacement motherboard running a V20 processor at 8 mhz at
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=51893411

These seem like nice upgrades for the working XT class machines out
there, or the classics that you want to bring up from the stock 256 or
512k RAM.

If you don't care, sorry. If you do, glad to help.




From kyrrin at my-dejanews.com  Sun Dec 27 17:56:18 1998
From: kyrrin at my-dejanews.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: FW: WTB: I Want a PDP-11
In-Reply-To: <36868B61.BEC1BCBA@barnstormer-software.com>
References: <36868B61.BEC1BCBA@barnstormer-software.com>
Message-ID: <3686c8e4.22136520@smtp.jps.net>

	Any takers? Sounds like an opportunity to make another collector happy
and, possibly, make a few bucks in the process.

	Reply to the originator directly if interested.

-=-=-  -=-=-

On Sun, 27 Dec 1998 19:32:40 GMT, in alt.sys.pdp11 you wrote:

>>Message-ID: <36868B61.BEC1BCBA@barnstormer-software.com>
>>From: Todd Osborne 
>>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I)
>>X-Accept-Language: en
>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11
>>Subject: WTB: I Want a PDP-11
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>Lines: 13
>>Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 19:32:40 GMT
>>NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.214.185.65
>>NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 14:32:40 EDT
>>Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news1.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.atl!news1.mco.POSTED!not-for-mail
>>
>>I am a collector of older computers, mostly home PC's from the late
>>70's. I would love to add a PDP-11 to my collection, as the only non-PC.
>>I have searched the web trying to find a place to buy/save one, but have
>>come up empty. I cannot afford to spend a lot, but would happy pay
>>something for one, including crating/shipping charges. It will
>>definately find a good, safe home.
>>
>>If you know of a PDP that needs a good home and would like to help me to
>>rescue it, please let me know. Email responses to
>>todd.osborne@barnstormer-software.com are also greatly appreciated.
>>Thanks,

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho,
Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com
Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com
"...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object,
event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..."


From eric at brouhaha.com  Sun Dec 27 18:01:53 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981227165122.007cf750@mail.thereviewguide.com>
	(message from Tim Hotze on Sun, 27 Dec 1998 16:51:22 +0000)
References: <3.0.5.32.19981227165122.007cf750@mail.thereviewguide.com>
Message-ID: <19981228000153.26011.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Tim Hotze  wrote:
> I don't know why Intel's 'low cost' processors are always so bone headed:
> 486SX, which removed the one true thing that made it a 486, 8088, removing
> the crucial 16-bit bus of the 8086, 386SX, which worked pretty well, but
> still halfed the external bandwidth (did Intel ever make a cheap version of
> a 286?), and now we've got Celeron: Until the Celron A, no cache at all... 

Well, playing Devil's Advocate for a moment...

Pretend you're Intel.  (Only smarter.)  How would YOU make a low cost version
of the 8086, in a non-bone-headed way?

The 386?

The 486?

The Pentium II?

Bear in mind that you've already done all of the expensive engineering
necessary for the expensive full-performance processors; those are sunk
costs.  But now you want to offer a lower-priced processor, without
seriously diminshing sales of your full price model.

It's not a simple problem with an easy answer.  I'm very reluctant to claim
that Intel did it wrong.

And in case you're wondering, no, I've never worked for Intel.  I personally
find the x86 architecture revolting.  Despite that, I have a great deal of
respect for the engineers that managed to take a toaster controller from
1978 and turn it into a world-class 32-bit superscalar processor.  Imagine
what they could have accomplished if they'd started from a GOOD architecture.

Eric


From allisonp at world.std.com  Sun Dec 27 18:13:10 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: AMD 29000 series
Message-ID: <199812280013.AA12569@world.std.com>




Price, or something.  The 8086 was the same thing as an 8088, but with a
 (roblwill@usaor.net)
References: <01be3206$5ed40b60$4c8ea6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: <19981228001435.26039.qmail@brouhaha.com>

"Jason Willgruber"  wrote:
> The tape drive was actually a useful idea, which should have been continued
> all the way throughout the PS/2 line.  It allowed whoever was using the
> computer to actually make use of the ROM BASIC.  The floppies aren't
> available in ROM BASIC, and once a program is typed in, there's no way to
> save it. 

The PC was introduced in 1981.  IBM had no clue as to how popular it would
become, or who their customers would be.  The cassette interface was there
to provide for a less expensive entry-level system.  They soon discovered
that almost everyone that bought a PC bought a floppy disk controller and
drive.

> I think one of the not-so-smart things that IBM did was to
> remove the cassette interface 

Leaving the cassette interface out of later models made perfect sense.  It
was an extra cost that the vast majority of customers didn't need.

> and to keep the now-useless ROM-BASIC in there.

Are you sure it's useless?

If you use IBM's disk BASIC or BASICA, you're actually using ROM BASIC.
Try running BASICA on a clone sometime.  It won't work.  That's why
MS-DOS for other platforms usually included GWBASIC.

On the other hand, you can argue that it is useless, since most IBM
customers don't use BASICA.  Or QBASIC for that matter.  Anyone using
BASIC these days is likely to be using Visual BASIC.

So why didn't IBM remove the ROM BASIC?  Simple.  Because it wouldn't
save them any money.  There's a certain minimum cost for a masked ROM,
and going to smaller ones (if you can even get them) doesn't lower your cost.

I don't know what IBM's license from Microsoft for ROM BASIC is like; they
may have paid a one-time flat license fee for it, like Apple did for
Applesoft.

Eric


From roblwill at usaor.net  Sun Dec 27 21:16:38 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: PC cassette interface and ROM BASIC (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade)
Message-ID: <01be3210$7b879060$c58ea6d1@the-general>



>Are you sure it's useless?
>
>If you use IBM's disk BASIC or BASICA, you're actually using ROM BASIC.
>Try running BASICA on a clone sometime.  It won't work.  That's why
>MS-DOS for other platforms usually included GWBASIC.
>
Hmm... I use IBM DOS and BASICA/BASIC (not GWBASIC) on a Tandy 1000TX, and
it works.  No ROM BASIC in that thing.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sun Dec 27 18:35:21 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: VT420 Terminal to LA75 Printer
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

>Anyway, I've got the printer connected to the printer port on the VT420,
>and am now trying to figure out how to set it up.  Does anyone know what
>are the proper settings for having a LA75 connected to the VT420?  It looks
>as it the only setting that can be changed are on the terminal.

Well, I figured out how to get the printer to print out it's settings, so
now have it working in at least a limited function.  I'd still appreciate
it if someone could either point me to info on the various settings, or
give a brief explanation.

Actually would this be somewhere on a VMS documentation CD?

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 27 17:28:59 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981227172311.007f26e0@mail.thereviewguide.com> from "Tim Hotze" at Dec 27, 98 05:23:11 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 27 17:22:01 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <01be31f3$dbc83e60$668ea6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Dec 27, 98 03:51:44 pm
Message-ID: 

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From roblwill at usaor.net  Sun Dec 27 21:54:31 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: Seagate ST-506 DIP switch settings needed
Message-ID: <01be3215$c697ed20$928ea6d1@the-general>

Anyone have the DIP settings for a Seagate ST-506 (full-height 5.25", 5 MB)
HD? I can't seem to find it on Seagate's website (or am I just looking in
the wrong place?)  I'm trying to set it up as HD [0] on an IBM PC using a
Western Digital XT-GEN controller. The HD appears to be recognized by the
controller BIOS to do a LLF, but isn't recognized by MS-DOS FDISK (5.0 - I
don't have anything smaller on 5.25" disks).  It just says "error reading
Hard Disk".  I can only think of two things :wrong jumper settings, or wrong
interleave setting.  When I LLF'ed it, I left it at <3>, which is what was
the ?default? was set at.  Or is the WD-XT-GEN too new of a controller for
the ST-506 (controller is dated 1987).  One last thing:  Does anyone have a
360k image (or TeleDisk Image) of IBM PC-DOS 3.0 or earlier (If you need a
copy of TeleDisk, email me, and I can email you a copy).

ThAnX,
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318


PS>> Anyone know what's wrong with the Obsolete Computer Helpline?  It's
been down for the past week or so.  Looks like a main server blew or
something.



From dburrows at netpath.net  Sun Dec 27 19:08:02 1998
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: VT420 Terminal to LA75 Printer
Message-ID: <007201be31ff$1ecc2770$bf281bce@p166>


>Anyway, my long quest for a DEC printer is doubly at a end.  I'm waiting
>for UPS to deliever one, and I was just given one.  It's the simple Classic
>Computer collecting rule, if you're searching for something, once you find
>one, you'll be swamped.


Murphy's Law.

>Anyway, I've got the printer connected to the printer port on the VT420,
>and am now trying to figure out how to set it up.  Does anyone know what
>are the proper settings for having a LA75 connected to the VT420?  It looks
>as it the only setting that can be changed are on the terminal.
>
First find out what the printer configuration is by holding the setup button
while powering it on.  It will then print the full setup and leave you in
setup mode.  You can then change parameters by stepping through them with
the front panel buttons.  Note: the writing that is below the buttons is for
setup mode.  First get to the parameter you want to change "feature" mode
using previous or next  then hit  "value" to toggle what you want with
previous and/or next.  Then hit feature to get back to feature mode.  Once
you have everything set as you want hit setup and it will save and exit to
normal.  There are 2 protocols DEC and other.  Other is IBM proprinter.
This is very useful for people that only have inkjets - hook one up to a
serial port and use it for routine printing.  I have several friends that
have bought them from me for just that use.  $4.50 for a ribbon at Office
Depot is a lot cheaper than inkjet cartridges.

Once you have the printer setup as you want it F3 for setup on the VT420.
Go to the printer menu and set your baud rate etc.  Normal print mode is hit
F2 for screen print.  Auto print mode is it prints everything that comes to
the terminal.  Controller mode:  The host can send to the printer without
displaying on the screen.

I have a VT420 book here if you want me to look up any special control
codes.

Dan



From dburrows at netpath.net  Sun Dec 27 19:10:32 1998
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <007301be31ff$1fa39bb0$bf281bce@p166>


>I believe that at one time if you bought an 8087 FPU from IBM as a PC
>upgrade you got an 8088 with it. Apparently some early 8088s (which ended
>up in IBM PCs) had problems working with the 8087 (I can't remember the
>details), so they gave you a 'good' 8088 to install with the 8087 just in
>case you had a defective one in your machine
>
>-tony


I recall it had something to do with timing problems.  I remember installing
them as a pair also.

Dan



From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au  Sun Dec 27 19:32:57 1998
From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: Seagate ST-506 DIP switch settings needed
Message-ID: <001a01be3202$008b38c0$2a3dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au>

Jason Willgruber wrote:
>Anyone have the DIP settings for a Seagate ST-506 (full-height 5.25", 5 MB)
>HD? I can't seem to find it on Seagate's website (or am I just looking in
>the wrong place?)  I'm trying to set it up as HD [0] on an IBM PC using a
>Western Digital XT-GEN controller. The HD appears to be recognized by the


Does the drive have a Seagate logic board?
The only ST-506 I have ever found was in a Profile drive with an Apple Logo
and had a Profile logic board.

Hans



From tim at thereviewguide.com  Sun Dec 27 15:45:45 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <199812280013.AA12615@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981227214545.007e71b0@mail.thereviewguide.com>

>The 808x series has what was fairly new then a prefetch cache though of 
>very limited size.  Caches on chip grew in use when the fab technology 
>could cram enough on a die to permit a larger one.

Yeah... I figured that you had to have a pretty advanced design (with an
accompaning fab, although I don't really know about this stuff, it seemed
like 1 micron was the magic number for on chip caches).  I've always liked
large caches on everything: 512K on a hard drive, a meg on a motherboard,
64K on chip (Sure, doesn't seem like much to today's memory-eating
programs, but I look at it this way: It's as much RAM as my Apple II had.
But the II could do a LOT more with it's 64K than mine can...)  BTW, does
the PII actually count as a microprocessor?  Sure, you've got the
processor, then you've got the cache (IIRC) on a seperate chip mounted on
what's more like a daughterboard than a processor.  So if you say that for
a PII to be a PII you need 512K cache, is it a microprocessor?

Tim
>Allison
------------------------------------------------------*
*Ever onward, always forward.			      *
*Tim D. Hotze Panel Member, The Ultimate Web Host List*
*http://www.webhostlist.com worldsfate@geocities.com  *
------------------------------------------------------*


From roblwill at usaor.net  Sun Dec 27 22:37:12 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: Seagate ST-506 DIP switch settings needed
Message-ID: <01be321b$bce9d760$928ea6d1@the-general>

Yeppers.

I'm looking right at it (took the logic board off to remove a couple of
styrofoam peanuts that were lodged between the drive and the board), and it
says:

SEAGATE TECHNOLOGY      CONTROL       ASSY 20040   EC

and it has the little funky Seagate "S" next to it.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318



>
>Does the drive have a Seagate logic board?
>The only ST-506 I have ever found was in a Profile drive with an Apple Logo
>and had a Profile logic board.
>
>Hans
>
>



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 27 18:48:33 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <01be3206$5ed40b60$4c8ea6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Dec 27, 98 06:04:15 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 27 18:56:31 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: PC cassette interface and ROM BASIC (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade)
In-Reply-To: <19981228001435.26039.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Dec 28, 98 00:14:35 am
Message-ID: 

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From tim at thereviewguide.com  Sun Dec 27 15:59:23 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <199812272312.AA17088@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981227215923.007e7900@mail.thereviewguide.com>

>This show a fundemental lack of knowledge about Intel CPUs and their 
>busses.

Fundamental? No.  But about everything else, yes.  Remember, I'm of more
ore less a PC generation.  Everything before my 486, I learned secondhand,
and not to well.  But yeah, I really haven't the faintest.

>8088 actually runs for the same clock about 20% slower than the 8086
>but using significantly fewer glue chips. 

Hmm... but it still had the half width bus, right?

>The 386sx is a lower pin count 386 that uses a 16 bit bus insted of the 
>32bit again for lower cost and lower power.  Bus bandwith was not half
>as it is faster than that.

Yeah, but it's still a 'downgrade'.  But the 386SX was a fairly good
success, and I take back anything bad I said about it.  But once again, the
386SX didn't give the 386 all it's glory.

>Celeron, PII with big internal cache.  I just powered up a celeron 333mhz
>with 128k internal cache and it's remarkably fast(and cheap).

Yeah.  I'm not argueing with that.  Actually, the 128K's at full clock
speed, not half, like in a PII, so eventually, you loose an amazingly small
amount of performance.  When you add in the fact that you can overclock the
Celeron a lot more than a PII (a 333 can go to 450MHz, according to some
reports, but I don't have that kind of a cooling system.  Tropics, and all.)

>286 never saw a 288 version.

I'd never heard of one.  Although that makes sense, as it'd be pretty bad
to have a 2nd generation x86 16-bit processor with some of the 'cost
saving' but no longer necessary features of a 8088.

>ISA and EISA bus machines are slow as the BUS speeds are limited to
>~8mhz. This is where many older machines hit the speed wall.  PCI and
>other  extended busses are faster (to the limits of the cpu level bus).

Yeah, but IIRC, some parts of even the newest XEON based system are 8 bits
(like the BIOS).  You've got 16 interrupts, half of which are taken up by
things as simple as clocks, etc. and then you've got a whole bunch of parts
which should share IRQ's but don't... I say it's well past time that we put
the PC architeticutre to rest.

>Allison
Tim
------------------------------------------------------*
*Ever onward, always forward.			      *
*Tim D. Hotze Panel Member, The Ultimate Web Host List*
*http://www.webhostlist.com worldsfate@geocities.com  *
------------------------------------------------------*


From tim at thereviewguide.com  Sun Dec 27 16:02:14 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: AMD 29000 series
In-Reply-To: <199812280013.AA12569@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981227220214.007c9850@mail.thereviewguide.com>

>DEC used it as a graphics drawing engine for a high speed laser printer 
>(40ppm!).

Whew!  Probably cost the life salry of my extended family.  That'd be fast
enough to do something like print out hard copies of logs for a server...
in real time.  (That, or have a major branch of a major bank share a single
printer... IF you could fit like 2GB RAM into it.)

>Allison
Tim
------------------------------------------------------*
*Ever onward, always forward.			      *
*Tim D. Hotze Panel Member, The Ultimate Web Host List*
*http://www.webhostlist.com worldsfate@geocities.com  *
------------------------------------------------------*


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 27 20:01:12 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981227214545.007e71b0@mail.thereviewguide.com> from "Tim Hotze" at Dec 27, 98 09:45:45 pm
Message-ID: 

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From netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au  Sun Dec 27 20:10:23 1998
From: netcafe at pirie.mtx.net.au (Computer Room Internet Cafe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: VT420 Terminal to LA75 Printer
Message-ID: <01be3207$3a835d00$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>

-----Original Message-----
From: Zane H. Healy 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Monday, 28 December 1998 11:21
Subject: VT420 Terminal to LA75 Printer


>I've no idea if these count as classic hardware, but the PDP-11/73 they're
>attached to does.


Close enough!

>It's the simple Classic Computer collecting rule, if you're searching for
>something, once you find one, you'll be swamped.

I know that feeling.

>Anyway, I've got the printer connected to the printer port on the VT420,
>and am now trying to figure out how to set it up.  Does anyone know what
>are the proper settings for having a LA75 connected to the VT420?  It looks
>as it the only setting that can be changed are on the terminal.

You might try 4800, 8, N, 1.  It seems pretty common.
There should be dip switches on the LA75 somewhere to let you change the
baud rate.  IIRC, if you hold down the LF key when you power up the printer,
it
should print a test page, which I think includes the serial port status.
(It's either LF or FF, not sure which)

I don't have a DEC printer on my Microvax II, it's an old CITOH 2500, I just
told
VMS it was an LA210 and it works perfectly.   A Brother M1724L also works
very well that way too. (Both are 24pin Wide Carriage)

The situation may be somewhat different on a PDP with a different O/S of
course,
I don't know enough about those machines to comment intelligently.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Room Internet Cafe
Port Pirie
South Australia.
netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au



From roblwill at usaor.net  Sun Dec 27 23:00:52 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <01be321f$0b298d00$928ea6d1@the-general>


>
>>The 386sx is a lower pin count 386 that uses a 16 bit bus insted of the
>>32bit again for lower cost and lower power.  Bus bandwith was not half
>>as it is faster than that.
>
>Yeah, but it's still a 'downgrade'.  But the 386SX was a fairly good
>success, and I take back anything bad I said about it.  But once again, the
>386SX didn't give the 386 all it's glory.
>

What's better?  The 386sx or 386dx.  From looking at the suffixes, it
appears that it would be the sx, but then, wouldn't that make a
double-downgrade, and screw everyone?  I'm just saying this, because I have
(had - it's now parts) Gateway 386DX/25, and Compaq 386SX/20 (SLT386s/20).
The Compaq could run more things quicker than the Gateway.  Or is my case
just a freak of nature or because of that majic stuff called Cache?
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From tim at thereviewguide.com  Sun Dec 27 16:11:04 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: PC cassette interface and ROM BASIC (was Re: OT, but info
  needed: RAM uprade)
In-Reply-To: <19981228001435.26039.qmail@brouhaha.com>
References: <01be3206$5ed40b60$4c8ea6d1@the-general>
 <01be3206$5ed40b60$4c8ea6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981227221104.007c7510@mail.thereviewguide.com>


>The PC was introduced in 1981.  IBM had no clue as to how popular it
>would become, or who their customers would be.  The cassette interface
>was there to provide for a less expensive entry-level system.  They soon
>discovered that almost everyone that bought a PC bought a floppy disk
>controller and drive.

Yeah... actually, I'm really glad.  Knowing the way that IBM handles
backwards compatiblity... we might just now be getting rid of our tape
interfaces.

>Leaving the cassette interface out of later models made perfect sense.
>It was an extra cost that the vast majority of customers didn't need.

Exactly.  That, and by the time of the AT and higher, low end was floppy,
high end hard drive.  Floppies became affordable due to the AII's and the
PC's need for floppies.

>Are you sure it's useless?
>
>If you use IBM's disk BASIC or BASICA, you're actually using ROM BASIC.
>Try running BASICA on a clone sometime.  It won't work.  That's why
>MS-DOS for other platforms usually included GWBASIC.

Hehehe... just a year ago, I remember getting boco credits and saving like
40 minutes in math class by writing GWBASIC programs on a Zenith 248... if
I didn't live overseas, I'd love to get a 248...

>On the other hand, you can argue that it is useless, since most IBM
>customers don't use BASICA.  Or QBASIC for that matter.  Anyone using
>BASIC these days is likely to be using Visual BASIC.

So you're saying if I go and get an IBM PC it has BASICA on it?  (I mean a
new one).

>I don't know what IBM's license from Microsoft for ROM BASIC is like;
>they may have paid a one-time flat license fee for it, like Apple did for
>Applesoft.

Hmm... that was a pretty good move on Apple's part, seeing how many
computers with Applesoft were sold.

>Eric
Tim
------------------------------------------------------*
*Ever onward, always forward.			      *
*Tim D. Hotze Panel Member, The Ultimate Web Host List*
*http://www.webhostlist.com worldsfate@geocities.com  *
------------------------------------------------------*


From tim at thereviewguide.com  Sun Dec 27 16:30:20 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.5.32.19981227172311.007f26e0@mail.thereviewguide.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981227223020.007f12b0@mail.thereviewguide.com>

>Not easily. The 8086 motherboard would be expecting 16 bit data from the 
>CPU. It's possible to do something like that, but it's not a drop-in 
>replacement. No idea why you'd _want_ to do that, of course.

Easy.  If you had one and but not the other. But now, it's so fricking
cheap anyways...

>Give an engineer a copy of the PC techrefs and count how many times he 
>says 'They did WHAT???' as he reads the schematics :-). It appears that 
>if there are 2 ways to do something, the PC always made the worst >choice...

Remember who was making this: The IBM employees that wanted to be like
Apple.  A bunch of rogues with a mission.... but not to much in the way of
$$$.

>AMD 8088 chips (and the peripheral chips like the DMA controller and 
>interrupt controller) are quite common in IBM PCs, etc.

I figured.  Most of the chips I've seen from that era in the x86 arena are
AMD or someone, but Intel less often than you'd think. (Or, perhaps, if you
know what I'm talking about, just as often as you'd think.)

>I believe that at one time if you bought an 8087 FPU from IBM as a PC
>upgrade you got an 8088 with it. Apparently some early 8088s (which ended
>up in IBM PCs) had problems working with the 8087 (I can't remember the
>details), so they gave you a 'good' 8088 to install with the 8087 just in
>case you had a defective one in your machine

Hmm... see, that just isn't an economical idea.  It might make more sense
to write a utility that figured it out, or to do something of that nature,
hand them the floppy (or tape, etc.) then say 'check.'  But anyway, I'm
sure it was pretty good on cusomer satisfaction.  Besides, having a spare
can't hurt.

>-tony
Tim
------------------------------------------------------*
*Ever onward, always forward.			      *
*Tim D. Hotze Panel Member, The Ultimate Web Host List*
*http://www.webhostlist.com worldsfate@geocities.com  *
------------------------------------------------------*


From allisonp at world.std.com  Sun Dec 27 20:47:37 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <199812280247.AA12664@world.std.com>




It probably depends on the system config.  I have hardly any problems with
IE, and have about every problem thinkable with Netscrape, but my dad's
computer, which is slower, has a smaller HD, and less RAM, is just the
opposite.  Maybe it just doesn't like me :(
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318


-----Original Message-----
From: Allison J Parent 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Sunday, December 27, 1998 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade


>
>I have 3.0+ down loaded off the net for free, is that too costly?  it
>runs on a 486DX2/66 with 20mb under win3.1 and it's solid. On the other
>hand I've had IE on a P166 with 32mb be real nasty.  If an application like
>netscrap (or IE) hangs or crashes is an indication something is broke.
>Video drivers, and "helper apps" tend to be first on my hit list for
>problems.
>
>It's OT but since so much of the classic data distribution is PC/internet
>based I'm comfortable talking about it here.
>
>Allison
>
>



From pechter at monmouth.com  Sun Dec 27 21:11:59 1998
From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <01be321f$0b298d00$928ea6d1@the-general> from Jason Willgruber at "Dec 27, 98 09:00:52 pm"
Message-ID: <199812280312.WAA01271@monmouth.com>

> 
> >
> >>The 386sx is a lower pin count 386 that uses a 16 bit bus insted of the
> >>32bit again for lower cost and lower power.  Bus bandwith was not half
> >>as it is faster than that.
> >
> >Yeah, but it's still a 'downgrade'.  But the 386SX was a fairly good
> >success, and I take back anything bad I said about it.  But once again, the
> >386SX didn't give the 386 all it's glory.
> >
> 
> What's better?  The 386sx or 386dx.  From looking at the suffixes, it
> appears that it would be the sx, but then, wouldn't that make a
> double-downgrade, and screw everyone?  I'm just saying this, because I have
> (had - it's now parts) Gateway 386DX/25, and Compaq 386SX/20 (SLT386s/20).
> The Compaq could run more things quicker than the Gateway.  Or is my case
> just a freak of nature or because of that majic stuff called Cache?

A 386/SX with Cache could beat a no-cache 386DX... but the DX had
the larger memory address range and a better bandwidth to memory
32 bit rather than 16 bit.

My gateway 386 DX25 (now being scrapped to fit in a 486 or Pentium
motherboard would probably work pretty well compared with the 386SX25

You can pick up a lot of speed with a good cache.

Bill


From allisonp at world.std.com  Sun Dec 27 21:14:39 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <199812280314.AA22343@world.std.com>


<>I believe that at one time if you bought an 8087 FPU from IBM as a PC
<>upgrade you got an 8088 with it. Apparently some early 8088s (which ended
<>up in IBM PCs) had problems working with the 8087 (I can't remember the
<>details), so they gave you a 'good' 8088 to install with the 8087 just in
<>case you had a defective one in your machine
<>
<>-tony
<
<





<>DEC used it as a graphics drawing engine for a high speed laser printer 
<>(40ppm!).
<



<>8088 actually runs for the same clock about 20% slower than the 8086
<>but using significantly fewer glue chips. 
<


 from "Bill Pechter" at Dec 27, 1998 10:11:59 PM
Message-ID: <199812280321.UAA19310@calico.litterbox.com>

The real purpose of the 386sx was to kill off the 286s, which Intel had been
forced into second source agreements by IBM with.  What happened is AMD 
(and Cyrix, I think) began to produce faster 286s than Intels for the clone
market.  When intel introduce the 386, the machines it was in were vastly
expensive due to the 32 bit bus and only a few motherboard manufacturers.  The
SX was designed to fit on a 286 motherboard with essentially only a socket 
change and some bios tweaks.  The sx *also* allowed windows 3.0 users to run
in protected mode and multitask (sort of) and was the minimum platform to
do that, since the 286's protected memory system had a severe bug.


> > 
> > >
> > >>The 386sx is a lower pin count 386 that uses a 16 bit bus insted of the
> > >>32bit again for lower cost and lower power.  Bus bandwith was not half
> > >>as it is faster than that.
> > >
> > >Yeah, but it's still a 'downgrade'.  But the 386SX was a fairly good
> > >success, and I take back anything bad I said about it.  But once again, the
> > >386SX didn't give the 386 all it's glory.
> > >
> > 
> > What's better?  The 386sx or 386dx.  From looking at the suffixes, it
> > appears that it would be the sx, but then, wouldn't that make a
> > double-downgrade, and screw everyone?  I'm just saying this, because I have
> > (had - it's now parts) Gateway 386DX/25, and Compaq 386SX/20 (SLT386s/20).
> > The Compaq could run more things quicker than the Gateway.  Or is my case
> > just a freak of nature or because of that majic stuff called Cache?
> 
> A 386/SX with Cache could beat a no-cache 386DX... but the DX had
> the larger memory address range and a better bandwidth to memory
> 32 bit rather than 16 bit.
> 
> My gateway 386 DX25 (now being scrapped to fit in a 486 or Pentium
> motherboard would probably work pretty well compared with the 386SX25
> 
> You can pick up a lot of speed with a good cache.
> 
> Bill
> 


-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From erd at infinet.com  Sun Dec 27 21:21:53 1998
From: erd at infinet.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: MC68K (was Re: Apple 1)
In-Reply-To: <199812272114.AA01822@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Dec 27, 98 04:14:49 pm
Message-ID: <199812280321.WAA01745@user1.infinet.com>


> were executed.  We had 32K of 2114 1Kx4 SRAMs.  Our board performed oddly,
>  
> There were many mask revisions early on to correct microcode bugs. 
> Apparently the microcode was either difficult or very complex contributing 
> to many errors.

We had a batch of Synertek CPUs that turned out to have a flaw in the mask
that lead to spotty thinness in some of the features on the chip.  Synertek
tols us that we were nuts about our failure rate, but in the end, they showed
us the photomicrograms of a failed chip with a full report.  I have that
somewhere in a folder.
 
>   
> I have two. ;)

I have considerably more than two.  Tubes.

-ethan
 



From donm at cts.com  Sun Dec 27 22:39:53 1998
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: Seagate ST-506 DIP switch settings needed
In-Reply-To: <01be3215$c697ed20$928ea6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: 

On Sun, 27 Dec 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote:

> Anyone have the DIP settings for a Seagate ST-506 (full-height 5.25", 5 MB)
> HD? I can't seem to find it on Seagate's website (or am I just looking in
> the wrong place?)  I'm trying to set it up as HD [0] on an IBM PC using a
> Western Digital XT-GEN controller. The HD appears to be recognized by the
> controller BIOS to do a LLF, but isn't recognized by MS-DOS FDISK (5.0 - I
> don't have anything smaller on 5.25" disks).  It just says "error reading
> Hard Disk".  I can only think of two things :wrong jumper settings, or wrong
> interleave setting.  When I LLF'ed it, I left it at <3>, which is what was
> the ?default? was set at.  Or is the WD-XT-GEN too new of a controller for
> the ST-506 (controller is dated 1987).  One last thing:  Does anyone have a
> 360k image (or TeleDisk Image) of IBM PC-DOS 3.0 or earlier (If you need a
> copy of TeleDisk, email me, and I can email you a copy).
 
			 ST-506
                   Option Shunt Block
 
                      ____    ____
                      |   |__|   |
                   1  |    R     | 16
                   2  |    D     | 15
                   3  |    NC    | 14
                   4  |    H     | 13
                   5  |    DS4   | 12
                   6  |    DS3   | 11
                   7  |    DS2   | 10
                   8  |    DS1   |  9
                      |__________|
 
      Legend:
              R   Radial Operation
             *D   Defeat Recalibration
             *H   Half Step Option
              DSn Drive Select
 
             * Factory selection
 
Opening the Half Step option should improve access time.

The proper interleave setting is a function of the controller rather than 
the HD, so 3 should be OK.
						 - don



From roblwill at usaor.net  Mon Dec 28 01:53:49 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!
Message-ID: <01be3237$34718ec0$738ea6d1@the-general>

O.K.  I decided to use my TRS-80 Mod III to type a story (about 100 pgs or
so) that was an assignment for my Communications class in school because it
has a good keyboard for lots of typing, and it has a clear printer.  I get
it all typed up (three SCRIPSIT files), switch on the trusty DWP II, and
start printing.  As the first two pages are done, I reach onto the shelf
(above the computer) to get a paperclip to hold the whole thing together
when it's done.  Now the paperclip that my hand happens to grab is secretly
joined to another paperclip, which (naturally) decided that it didn't want
to leave the little cup they're all in.  The whole thing spills out, sending
9 of them INTO the computer.

The screen blacks out, printer stops, I hear two sharp pops, a puff of
smoke, lights dim, and I hear the snap of the circuit breaker from across
the basement.  I say a quick string of explicitives directed at the
paperclips while I'm searching for the flashlight, which (again -
naturally), has dead batteries.  I start pulling all the plugs in the area
of the computer, and carefully make my way to the breaker box.  I find the
tripped switch, flipped it back on, and went back over to the computer,
which was surrounded in a bit of a haze.

I grabbed a screwdriver pulled the case apart, removed the paperclip that
was shorting the main power transformer.  I plugged it in, and turned it on
(at that time not knowing that 9 paperclips had went in).  Smoke bomb.
White smoke was pouring out of the M/B compartment.  I removed the cover and
found the other 8 clips, one partially melted into the Z80.  The serial
board was almost totally black (never worked anyway).  I was thinking four
words:  Why me.  Why NOW?!

Naturally, I have a spare P/S board, video board, and floppy controller, but
no spare M/B.

Does anyone have a spare board that they wouldn't mind selling for a couple
of bucks, or I could take it off your hands so you don't have to throw it
out :)  My board had 48k RAM. Or was it 32?  I forget, but it wasn't 16,
which is what the case says.  I don't really care how much it has (16 will
run SCRIPSIT, won't it?), and I probably have chips laying around that'll
work in it, anyway.

If anyone has an RS-232 board laying around, I may be interested in that,
too (not a rush, though), so I can connect the 300baud acoustic modem and
have the "world's slowest computer connected to the Internet" :)

ThAnX in advance,
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From roblwill at usaor.net  Mon Dec 28 02:19:04 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:33 2005
Subject: Seagate ST-506 DIP switch settings needed
Message-ID: <01be323a$bb542b20$738ea6d1@the-general>


Thanks!
Now, this may seem like a dumb question, but, when I select a drive, or a
factor default, I turn the switch on, right?
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318


>
> ST-506
>                   Option Shunt Block
>
>                      ____    ____
>                      |   |__|   |
>                   1  |    R     | 16
>                   2  |    D     | 15
>                   3  |    NC    | 14
>                   4  |    H     | 13
>                   5  |    DS4   | 12
>                   6  |    DS3   | 11
>                   7  |    DS2   | 10
>                   8  |    DS1   |  9
>                      |__________|
>
>      Legend:
>              R   Radial Operation
>             *D   Defeat Recalibration
>             *H   Half Step Option
>              DSn Drive Select
>
>             * Factory selection
>
>Opening the Half Step option should improve access time.
>
>The proper interleave setting is a function of the controller rather than
>the HD, so 3 should be OK.
> - don
>
>



From donm at cts.com  Sun Dec 27 23:45:00 1998
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: Seagate ST-506 DIP switch settings needed
In-Reply-To: <01be323a$bb542b20$738ea6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 28 Dec 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote:

> 
> Thanks!
> Now, this may seem like a dumb question, but, when I select a drive, or a
> factor default, I turn the switch on, right?
> --

Yes.  The original setting device on the 506 was a DIP with frangible 
foil jumpers that bridged opposite pins.  In that case, you severed the 
ones that you wanted to open.  Sounds as though you have a DIP switch so 
atart with all OFF and turn on those that correspond to 'D' and 'H' and 
the appropriate 'DSn'.  Your mention of a WD-GEN controller says PC, so 
if using a cable with a twist it should be DS2.  Make sure that it is a 
HD cable - the twist is fewer leads and in a different location on the 
ribbon cable.  Also, don't overlook the 20 conductor cable also.

						 - don

>                  -Jason Willgruber
>                (roblwill@usaor.net)
>                   ICQ#: 1730318
> 
> 
> >
> > ST-506
> >                   Option Shunt Block
> >
> >                      ____    ____
> >                      |   |__|   |
> >                   1  |    R     | 16
> >                   2  |    D     | 15
> >                   3  |    NC    | 14
> >                   4  |    H     | 13
> >                   5  |    DS4   | 12
> >                   6  |    DS3   | 11
> >                   7  |    DS2   | 10
> >                   8  |    DS1   |  9
> >                      |__________|
> >
> >      Legend:
> >              R   Radial Operation
> >             *D   Defeat Recalibration
> >             *H   Half Step Option
> >              DSn Drive Select
> >
> >             * Factory selection
> >
> >Opening the Half Step option should improve access time.
> >
> >The proper interleave setting is a function of the controller rather than
> >the HD, so 3 should be OK.
> > - don
> >
> >
> 
> 

    donm@cts.com
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
    Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives
         Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society
       Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology.
     Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard  (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 619-454-8412
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
        see old system support at  http://www.psyber.com/~tcj
   visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://devili.iki.fi/cpm
   	 with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm




From roblwill at usaor.net  Mon Dec 28 03:01:15 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: Seagate ST-506 DIP switch settings needed
Message-ID: <01be3240$9fef2be0$738ea6d1@the-general>

O.K.  I just tried that.  It doesn't work.  However, when I close all the
switches (on), and set it as drive 1 (straight cable), FDISK says it can't
find disk 1.  It does the same with a twisted cable (says the drive is disk
2)  Should I try setting it as disk 2 and see what happens?

ThAnX!
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318


-----Original Message-----
From: Don Maslin 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Sunday, December 27, 1998 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: Seagate ST-506 DIP switch settings needed

>
>Yes.  The original setting device on the 506 was a DIP with frangible
>foil jumpers that bridged opposite pins.  In that case, you severed the
>ones that you wanted to open.  Sounds as though you have a DIP switch so
>atart with all OFF and turn on those that correspond to 'D' and 'H' and
>the appropriate 'DSn'.  Your mention of a WD-GEN controller says PC, so
>if using a cable with a twist it should be DS2.  Make sure that it is a
>HD cable - the twist is fewer leads and in a different location on the
>ribbon cable.  Also, don't overlook the 20 conductor cable also.
>




From jimw at agora.rdrop.com  Mon Dec 28 00:22:44 1998
From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: Yet another source lost to the dark side...
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19981227222244.00934b30@agora.rdrop.com>

Well, yet another unwelcome discovery on eBay.

For some time its been known that there was a person in the Albuquerque
area (think he was a former MITS employee) that had some quantity of parts
and some MITS equipment.

Well, the parts business must not have gone well because it appears that he
is dropping most of his stock on eBay as a series of auctions.  Mostly bare
boards at the moment.

Business must be good...  He did not even reply to an offer I made on a
board almost a month ago...

Grab what you see as soon as you see it...  Or it will show up in an
auction tomorrow!

-jim

---
jimw@agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174




From donm at cts.com  Mon Dec 28 00:28:12 1998
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: Seagate ST-506 DIP switch settings needed
In-Reply-To: <01be3240$9fef2be0$738ea6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 28 Dec 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote:

> O.K.  I just tried that.  It doesn't work.  However, when I close all the
> switches (on), and set it as drive 1 (straight cable), FDISK says it can't
> find disk 1.  It does the same with a twisted cable (says the drive is disk
> 2)  Should I try setting it as disk 2 and see what happens?
 
Probably no great point in that.  FDISK cannot usually see an ST-506/412  
interface HD that has not been low level formatted on the controller in 
use at the time. Set the switch for the appropriate cable, and power up 
the computer.  Bring up DEBUG and at the '-' prompt, enter DC800:0.  
If you see ASCII text that indicates that you are looking at a WD 
controller, then enter G=C800:5 and follow the prompts to low level 
format the disk.  If this is successful - if the disk is good - then 
FDISK should see it on the next bootup and you can go on from there.  

If it is not successful, you probably have a bad HD.  Also, if your 
DC800:0 search does not yield ASCII, try other addresses in 200H 
increments.  That is, such as CA00:0, CC00:0, etc.

						 - don
 


From roblwill at usaor.net  Mon Dec 28 03:28:08 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: Seagate ST-506 DIP switch settings needed
Message-ID: <01be3244$618629e0$738ea6d1@the-general>

O.K.  I already LLF'ed it, but that was with the wrong jumper settings, so
it probably didn't do much good.  I'll just have to find another 360k disk
somewhere to copy DEBUG off of my 5170.

ThAnX,
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318


-----Original Message-----
From: Don Maslin 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Sunday, December 27, 1998 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: Seagate ST-506 DIP switch settings needed


>Probably no great point in that.  FDISK cannot usually see an ST-506/412
>interface HD that has not been low level formatted on the controller in
>use at the time. Set the switch for the appropriate cable, and power up
>the computer.  Bring up DEBUG and at the '-' prompt, enter DC800:0.
>If you see ASCII text that indicates that you are looking at a WD
>controller, then enter G=C800:5 and follow the prompts to low level
>format the disk.  If this is successful - if the disk is good - then
>FDISK should see it on the next bootup and you can go on from there.
>
>If it is not successful, you probably have a bad HD.  Also, if your
>DC800:0 search does not yield ASCII, try other addresses in 200H
>increments.  That is, such as CA00:0, CC00:0, etc.
>
> - don
>
>



From marvin at rain.org  Mon Dec 28 01:05:10 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: Yet another source lost to the dark side...
References: <3.0.3.32.19981227222244.00934b30@agora.rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <36872DA6.CD3F6C29@rain.org>

James Willing wrote:
> 
> Well, the parts business must not have gone well because it appears that he
> is dropping most of his stock on eBay as a series of auctions.  Mostly bare
> boards at the moment.

I don't have a problem with his selling on ebay, but there are several
things I don't like.  1) Charging a $6.00 shipping and handling fee is a bit
steep and it would be naive to think he is not making a profit on that.  2)
Both his descriptions and everything he has said points to his worked at
MITS AFTER it was sold to Pertec.  It would seem judging from his ads that
he is attempting to take advantage of some buyers ignorance about Altair
history. 3) What is his definition of rare such that these things keep
poping up week after week :)?


From lwalker at mail.interlog.com  Sun Dec 27 21:32:52 1998
From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies - Wang drives
In-Reply-To: <01be31f3$161bfee0$668ea6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: <199812280834.DAA04583@smtp.interlog.com>

On 27 Dec 98 at 15:46, Jason Willgruber wrote:
SNIP
> Well, the WANG has it's own special version of DOS 3.2 (or 3.3 - can't
> remember).  I can't just load any version of dos on it, and expect it to
> boot.  It had a special "WOS" (WANG OS) file or something that makes it work
> right.  If I try to boot off of even another version of DOS 3.2, it won't
> work (even if the disk is formatted on the WANG).
> 
> What's the lowest version of DOS that HIMEM.SYS works under (never tried it
> below 5.0)?
> 
> One last (I think) about this thing:  I've heard that it has an in-ROM word
> processing program, and a non-DOS operating system.  How do I get to these,
> since when I got the computer, it was already loaded with the DOS-emulator.
> 
> ThAnX,
> --
>                  -Jason Willgruber
>                (roblwill@usaor.net)
>                   ICQ#: 1730318
> 
> 


    www.hotvs.com/portal.html  has links to much of the Wang world

ciao		larry
lwalker@interlog.com


From tim at thereviewguide.com  Mon Dec 28 00:48:14 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <19981228000153.26011.qmail@brouhaha.com>
References: <3.0.5.32.19981227165122.007cf750@mail.thereviewguide.com>
 <3.0.5.32.19981227165122.007cf750@mail.thereviewguide.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981228064814.007cab10@mail.thereviewguide.com>

>Well, playing Devil's Advocate for a moment...

Sounds like fun. ;-)  With my computer going haywire (Right now, I'm on mu
'auxiliary' 486 computer... I suspect a virus, but my antivius software
didn't find one, but I don't really trust it.  I only really trust it if it
find a virus...)

>Pretend you're Intel.  (Only smarter.)  How would YOU make a low cost
>version of the 8086, in a non-bone-headed way?

Slower clock speeds.  This means that you literally can have a plug in
upgrade.  You could also make one with a larger micron process and more
vertical and not worry about heating, but that gets to be bone headed.  A
better idea would be to learn from competitors, and start making a more
economical way of producing chips.

But I see your point... but remember, before being used on the IBM PC the
8088 had been on the market for 3 years, and probably in OEM's hands a year
before that.

>The 386?

Lower clock speeds... kind of a all-solving solution.

>The 486?

The 486 was just plain dumb.  You didn't really need a 486SX at all.  You
could keep on making a 386, but Intel was afraid of AMD catching up to them
(with their 40MHz 386's and all).  You could have also made a 386 to go in
a 486 socket.

>The Pentium II?

The Celeron was actually a pretty good idea, too good.  They should have
made the 128K cache at half clock speed like in the PII.  A Celeron 333
will perform better than a PII 300 in the same system, and you can
overclock the Celeron to compete with almost all Intel processors.

>Bear in mind that you've already done all of the expensive engineering
>necessary for the expensive full-performance processors; those are sunk
>costs.  But now you want to offer a lower-priced processor, without
>seriously diminshing sales of your full price model.

You make a bone headed one, to keep your 'get me a computer now' segment
happy, possibly gaining repeat customers, and you keep prices high on your
upper model saying 'well... sure, but look at this performance!  It really
is aimed at...)

>It's not a simple problem with an easy answer.  I'm very reluctant to
>claim that Intel did it wrong.

Well, they did have a lot of proffessionals a lot smarter than I am working
on the problem, and I'm willing to bet they had good ideas, but may have
been shot down somewhere between 'cost' and 'competion'.

>And in case you're wondering, no, I've never worked for Intel.  I 
>personally find the x86 architecture revolting.  Despite that, I have a 

I'll say that I don't really like it, and that we could have done much
better.  MIPS, SPARC, Alpha, all better than x86, and if they had
competition like the x86 market does, then it'd be a good assumption to
guess that the cost might even be halfed and performance considerably faster.

>great deal of respect for the engineers that managed to take a toaster 
>controller from1978 and turn it into a world-class 32-bit superscalar
>processor.  Imaginewhat they could have accomplished if they'd started
>from a GOOD architecture.

Well, I'm glad that Merced means the end to this lousy architecture.  It
wasn't until this year that we began seriouly getting rid of ISA, which,
aside from going from 8 to 16 bit, hasn't changed all that much since the
days of the XT.  Note this is good for the collector side of me, but very
bad for the 'innovative, creative, etc.' side of me.

>Eric
Tim
------------------------------------------------------*
*Ever onward, always forward.			      *
*Tim D. Hotze Panel Member, The Ultimate Web Host List*
*http://www.webhostlist.com worldsfate@geocities.com  *
------------------------------------------------------*


From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Mon Dec 28 05:32:55 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: UK collection
Message-ID: <36876C66.23AA51A5@bigfoot.com>

Here's web site with a LOT of varied collectables in the UK, owned by
Tony Brown. Can't figure why he wouldn't be a sub on this list......

http://freespace.virgin.net/tony.brown1/computer/



From rcini at msn.com  Mon Dec 28 08:02:17 1998
From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: Old Microsoft MSX standard?
Message-ID: <006501be326a$cb688760$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>

Hello, all:

    While reading some late-1984 Byte mags, I came across a description of
the Microsoft MSX computer standard. Implemented mostly by Japanese computer
manufacturers, an MSX computer is CP/M based with 32k of RAM, a cassette
port, RF modulator, and cartridge slots for expansion. I picture a Z80-based
VIC-20 or C64, although not in that physical form.

    Anyone have any info on this?

[  Rich Cini/WUGNET
[   ClubWin!/CW7
[   MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
[   Collector of "classic" computers
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/
<================   reply   separator  =================>






From PasserM at umkc.edu  Mon Dec 28 08:46:04 1998
From: PasserM at umkc.edu (Passer, Michael)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: Old Microsoft MSX standard?
Message-ID: <95A711A70065D111B58C00609451555C01A691BC@umkc-mail02>

Farat Mazullin has written several emulators, one of them being
fMSX, which emulates the MSX platform.  It is available for 
download at his site, along with a great deal of information
on the platform:

http://www.komkon.org/fms/MSX/

Hope this helps!

--Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu
[mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Richard A. Cini,
Jr.
Sent: Monday, December 28, 1998 8:02 AM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: Old Microsoft MSX standard?


Hello, all:

    While reading some late-1984 Byte mags, I came across a description of
the Microsoft MSX computer standard. Implemented mostly by Japanese computer
manufacturers, an MSX computer is CP/M based with 32k of RAM, a cassette
port, RF modulator, and cartridge slots for expansion. I picture a Z80-based
VIC-20 or C64, although not in that physical form.

    Anyone have any info on this?

[  Rich Cini/WUGNET
[   ClubWin!/CW7
[   MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
[   Collector of "classic" computers
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/
[   http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/
<================   reply   separator  =================>





From marvin at rain.org  Mon Dec 28 10:00:13 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
References: <3.0.5.32.19981227165122.007cf750@mail.thereviewguide.com>
	 <3.0.5.32.19981227165122.007cf750@mail.thereviewguide.com> <3.0.5.32.19981228064814.007cab10@mail.thereviewguide.com>
Message-ID: <3687AB0D.5C52E6FA@rain.org>

Tim Hotze wrote:
> 
> Sounds like fun. ;-)  With my computer going haywire (Right now, I'm on mu
> 'auxiliary' 486 computer... I suspect a virus, but my antivius software
> didn't find one, but I don't really trust it.  I only really trust it if it
> find a virus...)

One of the ways I use to check for a virus is to run CHKDSK and look at the
total memory.  For a number of viruses I have seen, the normal number of
655360 gets reduced to some other value.  Not the best way of checking of
course, but with many of the viruses I have seen, it gives a fast
indication.


From jfoust at threedee.com  Mon Dec 28 10:18:25 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: AMD 29000 series
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981227173023.007f2210@mail.thereviewguide.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981228101825.01063770@pc>

At 05:30 PM 12/27/98 +0000, Tim Hotze wrote:
>Hi.  I read about the AMD 29000 series microprocessors, and they seemed to
>be pretty interesting.  Does anyone have any examples of micros that used
>such a processor? 

I recently saw a Raster Technologies graphics display that I believe
had a 2900x processor at its core.  I don't know much about it, though.
I think it's an early 1980s device.

- John



From tim at thereviewguide.com  Mon Dec 28 02:01:12 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.5.32.19981227214545.007e71b0@mail.thereviewguide.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981228080112.007f7b60@mail.thereviewguide.com>

>YKYBHTLW you hear about machines with more cache than you had total 
>memory on you first/favourite machine... 1 megabyte is enough to support 
>a handful of users.....

My first machine had 4MB RAM, instantly upgraded to 12MB.  My favorite
machine... ooh... that's a tuffy.

>-tony
Tim
------------------------------------------------------*
*Ever onward, always forward.			      *
*Tim D. Hotze Panel Member, The Ultimate Web Host List*
*http://www.webhostlist.com worldsfate@geocities.com  *
------------------------------------------------------*


From tim at thereviewguide.com  Mon Dec 28 02:04:03 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: AMD 29000 series
In-Reply-To: <199812280314.AA22429@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981228080403.007f4b90@mail.thereviewguide.com>

>It was about $55k and it was considered a medium speed, medium duty
>printer. For the task you mention a Xerox9700 with a big vax on the side
at >100+ppm was the ticket.

Hmm... than what was it used for? Printing for a building of like ~100-~400
users?  (And at the time, what was a 'heavy duty' printer?)
>Oh, theses were 1987 products. ;)
>
>Allison
Tim
------------------------------------------------------*
*Ever onward, always forward.			      *
*Tim D. Hotze Panel Member, The Ultimate Web Host List*
*http://www.webhostlist.com worldsfate@geocities.com  *
------------------------------------------------------*


From tim at thereviewguide.com  Mon Dec 28 02:30:58 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <199812280315.AA22466@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981228083058.007ca360@mail.thereviewguide.com>

>What the point of pushing?  In the end it's still wanting for the next 
>keystroke, mouse click or byte from a slow modem.

That's what I'm starting to think.  The only thing that needs more than a
100MHz processor (even with today's programs) is heavy math, scientific
apps (like computing all the gravitational pull in the solar system), and
games.  For general-purpose computing, you just need an office suite in
like ROM so there's less waiting time...

>Allison
Tim
------------------------------------------------------*
*Ever onward, always forward.			      *
*Tim D. Hotze Panel Member, The Ultimate Web Host List*
*http://www.webhostlist.com worldsfate@geocities.com  *
------------------------------------------------------*


From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com  Mon Dec 28 10:46:00 1998
From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <199812281711.JAA15223@geocities.com>

> YKYBHTLW
What the heck?


From kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com  Mon Dec 28 10:47:41 1998
From: kurtkilgor at bigfoot.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: OT: OS/2 2.0
Message-ID: <199812281711.JAA15239@geocities.com>

I know this is somewhat off-topic, since OS/2 2.0 is too new, but does
anyone know where I could get the software to get it to connect to the
internet via PPP? I installed it, and it's a fairly nice system.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor


From Marty at itgonline.com  Mon Dec 28 11:15:48 1998
From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: AC/DC radio precautions, was Old Radios
Message-ID: <1998Dec28.121437.1767.174499@smtp.itgonline.com>

 


______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Old Radios
Author:  classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet
Date:    12/23/98 6:44 PM


 >
 >  Come now comrade Griffiths, an old radio never hurt anyone.
 
 >>>What, not even if you touch the chassis of an AA5 with wet hands?
 I stand corrected. This is a good time to mention to our list members 
 that if they find an old tube radio, especially an AC/DC set (you can 
 tell this by the absence of a power transformer and a tube complement 
 which will equal 120 volts for total filament voltage, some even have 
 line cord resistors), THESE SETS ARE EXTREMELY DANGEROUS AND LETHAL, 
 often having the 120 hot wire soldered to the chassis. If you touch 
 the chassis on one of these sets wired with the hot to chassis, then 
 ground yourself, you'll electrocute yourself. Always use one hand only 
 so you don't provide a path for the current (likewise be certain you 
 have insulated shoes, not providing a current path anywhere on your 
 body). If you need to work on one of these sets, use an isolation 
 transformer or wire a light bulb between the set and house current 
 (the light bulb filiment should open before you fry, thus breaking the 
 circuit).
 
 Marty
 
 
  
 
 >
 >  Marty
 
 -tony
 
 
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 From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
 To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
 
 Subject: Re: Old Radios
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From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Dec 28 12:36:12 1998
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <199812281711.JAA15223@geocities.com>
Message-ID: 

> > YKYBHTLW
> What the heck?

You Know You've Been Here Too Long When You Understand Acronyms Like That.

--
Fred Cisin                      cisin@xenosoft.com
XenoSoft                        http://www.xenosoft.com
2210 Sixth St.                  (510) 644-9366
Berkeley, CA 94710-2219



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Dec 28 12:39:30 1998
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: Old Microsoft MSX standard?
In-Reply-To: <006501be326a$cb688760$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>
Message-ID: 

>     While reading some late-1984 Byte mags, I came across a description of
> the Microsoft MSX computer standard. Implemented mostly by Japanese computer
> manufacturers, an MSX computer is CP/M based with 32k of RAM, a cassette

It is most certainly NOT CP/M, although it was intended to be similar.

> port, RF modulator, and cartridge slots for expansion. I picture a Z80-based
> VIC-20 or C64, although not in that physical form.
>     Anyone have any info on this?

Also a standardized disk format, based on MS-DOS'

--
Fred Cisin                      cisin@xenosoft.com
XenoSoft                        http://www.xenosoft.com
2210 Sixth St.                  (510) 644-9366
Berkeley, CA 94710-2219



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Dec 28 13:03:15 1998
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981228064814.007cab10@mail.thereviewguide.com>
Message-ID: 

> >Pretend you're Intel.  (Only smarter.)  How would YOU make a low cost
> >version of the 8086, in a non-bone-headed way?
> Lower clock speeds... kind of a all-solving solution.

Having a pin compatible processor with lower speed and lower cost is an 
invitation to one of the worst kinds of disaster.  People will buy the 
cheap one, and put it into a machine at the higher speed, claiming "it 
works just fine".  Then later, when it DOES start acting up, the same 
people will talk about how crummy the processors are!  YES, that DOES 
happen.  Somebody recently gave me a "lousy" 32MHz 386 motherboard 
because it was "unreliable".  Under the glued on heat sink was a 20 MHz 
chip.  That appears to have been the sole problem.


For my own round as "devil's advocate": On the first motherboard of the
AT, people found that they could speed it up by changing the crystal.  On
the next revision, IBM purportedly added code to the ROM that would cause
the machine to refuse to run if the clock speed had changed.  Everyone put
down IBM for that.  I think that what they did was NECESSARY.  Without
doing that, the very same people who would up the clock speed would also
bad-mouth IBM for making unreliable computers when it wouldn't work
reliably, FORGETTING or IGNORING the fact that THEY were responsible for
running the board at a speed higher than it was designed or spec'ed for. 


OTOH, I would have loved to see a version of the 386SX that would have 
been drop in compatible with a 286.  Kensington made some (tiny board 
with SX and some minor circuitry), but they were rather expensive at the 
time.  

--
Fred Cisin                      cisin@xenosoft.com
XenoSoft                        http://www.xenosoft.com
2210 Sixth St.                  (510) 644-9366
Berkeley, CA 94710-2219



From kozmik at wave.home.com  Mon Dec 28 13:23:14 1998
From: kozmik at wave.home.com (Dominique Cormann)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: - N - SpectrumZX emulator
Message-ID: <3687DAA2109.906DKOZMIK@mail>

http://www.spectrum.lovely.net/

Emulators don't impress me that much today as much as they did before,
because of the massive amounts of cpu power we have availible to us now.

BUT.

This one is cool. Its done in java, and will even run in your browser
window.

The site even has a list of games that you can just click on, download
into a window, and it runs the game in the java emulator.

Slick!

Even on the slow setting most of the games run 2-3 times as fast as the
original machine, so unfortunately its too fast...but on a p233mmx,
thats damn impressive fast java code....especially running in a netscape
browser!
--
============================================================---------
Dominique Cormann                          Email:kozmik@wave.home.com
dcormann@uoguelph.ca          Homepage:http://members.home.net/kozmik



From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com  Mon Dec 28 13:25:42 1998
From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: 

>> YKYBHTLW
>What the heck?

Enjoying puzzles, I'd guessed "You know you better HTL when "...
Search engine says "You Know You've Been Hacking Too long When"..

Re: a thread from long, long ago last week - according to
www.x86.org (Not an Intel friendly site), they have a copyright
on the letter 'I', and also 'bunny people'??


	Chuck
	cswiger@widomaker.com




From cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com  Mon Dec 28 13:30:38 1998
From: cswiger at wilma.widomaker.com (cswiger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: x86.org
Message-ID: 

>www.x86.org (Not an Intel friendly site), they have a copyright
>on the letter 'I', and also 'bunny people'??

I should say, the letter 'I' is a registered trademark.

	Chuck
	cswiger@widomaker.com





From roblwill at usaor.net  Mon Dec 28 16:54:08 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: x86.org
Message-ID: <01be32b4$fa3f3120$958ea6d1@the-general>

So in other words, Intel _could_ possibly sue Apple for the iMac.....
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318


-----Original Message-----
From: cswiger 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Monday, December 28, 1998 11:31 AM
Subject: x86.org


>>www.x86.org (Not an Intel friendly site), they have a copyright
>>on the letter 'I', and also 'bunny people'??
>
>I should say, the letter 'I' is a registered trademark.
>
> Chuck
> cswiger@widomaker.com
>
>
>
>



From cfandt at netsync.net  Mon Dec 28 14:28:14 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: AC/DC radio precautions, was Old Radios
In-Reply-To: <1998Dec28.121437.1767.174499@smtp.itgonline.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981228145809.00ac9970@206.231.8.2>

At 12:15 12/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
> 
>
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
>_________________________________
>Subject: Re: Old Radios
>Author:  classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet
>Date:    12/23/98 6:44 PM
>
>
> >
> >  Come now comrade Griffiths, an old radio never hurt anyone.
> 
> >>>What, not even if you touch the chassis of an AA5 with wet hands?
> I stand corrected. This is a good time to mention to our list members 
> that if they find an old tube radio, especially an AC/DC set (you can 
> tell this by the absence of a power transformer and a tube complement 
> which will equal 120 volts for total filament voltage, some even have 
> line cord resistors), THESE SETS ARE EXTREMELY DANGEROUS AND LETHAL, 
> often having the 120 hot wire soldered to the chassis. If you touch 
> the chassis on one of these sets wired with the hot to chassis, then 
> ground yourself, you'll electrocute yourself. Always use one hand only 
> so you don't provide a path for the current (likewise be certain you 
> have insulated shoes, not providing a current path anywhere on your 
> body). If you need to work on one of these sets, use an isolation 

These points are valid . . .

> transformer or wire a light bulb between the set and house current 
> (the light bulb filiment should open before you fry, thus breaking the 
> circuit).

Hold on there!  An isolation transformer is the *only*  way to go to
provide isolation from the line for a transformerless radio or TV. 

The light bulb will NOT open (like a fuse, as the above statement infers)
but will simply pass current up to at least the wattage rating of the
filament. (100W bulb = approx 0.9 Amperes @ 115V.) A few microamperes could
be enough to kill a person under many conditions at this voltage.

The concern for inexperienced folks handling a bare chassis of a
transformerless set is nonetheless well placed and the part about the
chassis being hot (115VAC in North Amer. or 230VAC in most of the other
parts of Earth) is particularly important to be aware of. A chassis could
be hot even if the line cord is correctly plugged into the wall receptacle.
This is because a commonly used signal bypass capacitor from the hot side
to chassis often is quite leaky (simply, it has relatively low DC
resistance) or even shorted from age. I've been hit too many times while
handling these sets over the past 33 or 34 years.

As with any of us troubleshooting computer power supplies while the power
is on, *always* stuff one hand into your pocket while probing around in the
circuit.

Enough of this off topic radio stuff  --although I had to post this to
correct a seriously incorrect piece of advice given above. On topic part
could be to note that using an isolation transformer while poking around in
a computer's switching power supply could make accidentally touching a few
parts in the line-side of the PSU somewhat safer.

Just being careful and focusing on where one's hands are at absolutely all
times is the safer way to go while having to work on live high voltage
circuits.

Regards,  Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/


From ddameron at earthlink.net  Mon Dec 28 14:30:37 1998
From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: AC/DC radio precautions, was Old Radios
Message-ID: <199812282030.MAA21516@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

Hi Marty,
At 12:15 PM 12/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
> THESE SETS ARE EXTREMELY DANGEROUS AND LETHAL, 
> often having the 120 hot wire soldered to the chassis. If you touch 
> the chassis on one of these sets wired with the hot to chassis, then 
> ground yourself, you'll electrocute yourself. Always use one hand only 
> so you don't provide a path for the current (likewise be certain you 
> have insulated shoes, not providing a current path anywhere on your 
> body). If you need to work on one of these sets, use an isolation 
> transformer or wire a light bulb between the set and house current 
> (the light bulb filiment should open before you fry, thus breaking the 
> circuit).
> 
> Marty

An isolation transformer is a good idea, but a light bulb is series will
only limit the current to its rating. Even with a short circuit, it will
only light at full brillance, not act as a breaker. It may protect
components in the radio, but it is no shock protection. A 40 watt bulb (a
smaller size) still has about 0.3A at 120 volts, way more than enough to
electrocute yourself if the current flows in the wrong path :(.
-Dave



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 28 12:44:52 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: Old Microsoft MSX standard?
In-Reply-To: <006501be326a$cb688760$e0e5fea9@mainoffice> from "Richard A. Cini, Jr." at Dec 28, 98 09:02:17 am
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 28 12:40:07 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981228080112.007f7b60@mail.thereviewguide.com> from "Tim Hotze" at Dec 28, 98 08:01:12 am
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 28 12:45:45 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <199812281711.JAA15223@geocities.com> from "Max Eskin" at Dec 28, 98 11:46:00 am
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 28 12:28:43 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981227223020.007f12b0@mail.thereviewguide.com> from "Tim Hotze" at Dec 27, 98 10:30:20 pm
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 28 12:57:55 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: AC/DC radio precautions, was Old Radios
In-Reply-To: <1998Dec28.121437.1767.174499@smtp.itgonline.com> from "Marty" at Dec 28, 98 12:15:48 pm
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 28 12:39:00 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!
In-Reply-To: <01be3237$34718ec0$738ea6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Dec 27, 98 11:53:49 pm
Message-ID: 

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From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com  Mon Dec 28 15:04:00 1998
From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: PC cassette interface and ROM BASIC (was Re: OT, but info
 needed: RAM uprade)
In-Reply-To: <19981228001435.26039.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: 

On 28 Dec 1998, Eric Smith wrote:

[snippage]
> > and to keep the now-useless ROM-BASIC in there.
> 
> Are you sure it's useless?
> 
> If you use IBM's disk BASIC or BASICA, you're actually using ROM BASIC.
> Try running BASICA on a clone sometime.  It won't work.  That's why
> MS-DOS for other platforms usually included GWBASIC.
> 
> On the other hand, you can argue that it is useless, since most IBM
> customers don't use BASICA.  Or QBASIC for that matter.  Anyone using
> BASIC these days is likely to be using Visual BASIC.
> 
> So why didn't IBM remove the ROM BASIC?  Simple.  Because it wouldn't
> save them any money.  There's a certain minimum cost for a masked ROM,
> and going to smaller ones (if you can even get them) doesn't lower your cost.

ROM BASIC is a very important feature on the machines with CMOS. If the CMOS
reg's get hosed and the machine can't find anything to boot from, you can
usually fix the problem from BASIC instead of having to open the case and move
a jumper or disconnect the CMOS battery (and I don't think you can disconnect
the CMOS battery on the PS/2s with the Dallas clock chip).

-- 
David Wollmann
DST / DST Data Conversion
http://www.ibmhelp.com/

ICQ: 10742063
AIM: FathomS36



From kozmik at wave.home.com  Mon Dec 28 15:13:22 1998
From: kozmik at wave.home.com (Dominique Cormann)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: OT: OS/2 2.0
In-Reply-To: <199812281711.JAA15239@geocities.com>
References: <199812281711.JAA15239@geocities.com>
Message-ID: <3687F47225B.9071KOZMIK@mail>


On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 11:47:41 -0500
"Max Eskin"  wrote:

> I know this is somewhat off-topic, since OS/2 2.0 is too new, but does
> anyone know where I could get the software to get it to connect to the
> internet via PPP? I installed it, and it's a fairly nice system.

You could get the tcp/ip package for 2.0...but gawd knows where you'd
find it.

Its easier to just find a copy of 3.0 somewhere for practically nothing.
It has a tcp/ip stack.

Plus ibm support 3.0 still, with fixpacks it has most of the
functionality now of the current version 4.0. They did this because a
lot of banks or other contracts still use 3.0 instead of 4.0, since its
uses less memory, and is more modular.

--
============================================================---------
Dominique Cormann                          Email:kozmik@wave.home.com
dcormann@uoguelph.ca          Homepage:http://members.home.net/kozmik



From roblwill at usaor.net  Mon Dec 28 18:07:22 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!
Message-ID: <01be32bf$355d4580$958ea6d1@the-general>



>Most likely you either shorted the mains side of the PSU to something on
>the secondary side, or you messed up the regulation circuitry, probably
>the former. The damage sounds like what you'd expect with 110V on a board
>of TTL...
>
>Ouch!. It's even possible that you've blown chips in the printer....
>
The one paper clip fell across the little clip that supplies 110v to the
main PSU.  That's what blew the breaker.  I tested the printer on my Tandy
1000, and it still works.

>There are 2 power supplies in the Model 3 - one on the side of the drive
>tower, one on the front of the logic cage. Which one got zapped ? The one
>on the drive tower supplies the drives and the FDC board, the one on the
>logic cage supplies the CPU board, RS232 board and video board.
>
Neither.  The main M/B got zapped.  I can power it up w/o MB in it, the
video lights up, and the drives go for about 1 second on power on.

>
>You might also be looking for a second PSU and drives :-(. This is a
>machine to rebuild slowly - get working PSUs (and test them on dummy
>load), then add just the CPU board and video and check that it goes into
>ROM basic correctly. Then add the floppy controller and drives. Finally
>add the RS232 board.
>
>I've fixed model3's and 4's, but never one that this has happened to.
>
Everything's fine but the CPU board and RS-232 card.


>
>A couple of other suggestions. A model 4 CPU board (non-gate array only?)
>will drop in there, and will run all model 3 software. So that's
>something to look for. The other possibility is to find a cassette-only
>model 3 or model 4 and move your (working) FDC, tower, drives and second
>PSU into in.
>
I was thinking about that, but won't I need a new keyboard, too?  I really
don't want to do that, because I just rebuilt every switch (they're not the
rubber cup type) a few months ago.

>
>The upgrade is (IIRC) just adding columns of 4116 chips. Worth bring it
>up to 48K anyway when you have the case apart.
>
Well, the RAM banks on the fried board were all full, so I guess it had 48k.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From Marty at itgonline.com  Mon Dec 28 15:54:31 1998
From: Marty at itgonline.com (Marty)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: AC/DC radio precautions, was Old Radios
Message-ID: <1998Dec28.165206.1767.174588@smtp.itgonline.com>

 Chris is quite right. Sorry, the light bulb rig was a bad idea (I have 
 never used it but it was mentioned to me once upon a time) and I agree 
 the isolation transformer is definitely the ONLY way to go. Regarding 
 trusting a spec sheet or schematic, I wouldn't. Many sets I've come 
 across have been modified, often in unconventional ways. 
 
 Marty
 
 


______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: AC/DC radio precautions, was Old Radios
Author:  classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet
Date:    12/28/98 3:31 PM


 At 12:15 12/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
 >
 >
 >
 >______________________________ Reply Separator 
 >_________________________________
 >Subject: Re: Old Radios
 >Author:  classiccmp@u.washington.edu at internet 
 >Date:    12/23/98 6:44 PM
 >
 >
 > >
 > >  Come now comrade Griffiths, an old radio never hurt anyone. 
 >
 > >>>What, not even if you touch the chassis of an AA5 with wet hands? 
 > I stand corrected. This is a good time to mention to our list members 
 > that if they find an old tube radio, especially an AC/DC set (you can 
 > tell this by the absence of a power transformer and a tube complement 
 > which will equal 120 volts for total filament voltage, some even have 
 > line cord resistors), THESE SETS ARE EXTREMELY DANGEROUS AND LETHAL, 
 > often having the 120 hot wire soldered to the chassis. If you touch
 > the chassis on one of these sets wired with the hot to chassis, then
 > ground yourself, you'll electrocute yourself. Always use one hand only 
 > so you don't provide a path for the current (likewise be certain you
 > have insulated shoes, not providing a current path anywhere on your 
 > body). If you need to work on one of these sets, use an isolation
 
 These points are valid . . .
 
 > transformer or wire a light bulb between the set and house current
 > (the light bulb filiment should open before you fry, thus breaking the 
 > circuit).
 
 Hold on there!  An isolation transformer is the *only*  way to go to 
 provide isolation from the line for a transformerless radio or TV.
 
 The light bulb will NOT open (like a fuse, as the above statement infers) 
 but will simply pass current up to at least the wattage rating of the 
 filament. (100W bulb = approx 0.9 Amperes @ 115V.) A few microamperes could 
 be enough to kill a person under many conditions at this voltage.
 
 The concern for inexperienced folks handling a bare chassis of a 
 transformerless set is nonetheless well placed and the part about the 
 chassis being hot (115VAC in North Amer. or 230VAC in most of the other 
 parts of Earth) is particularly important to be aware of. A chassis could 
 be hot even if the line cord is correctly plugged into the wall receptacle. 
 This is because a commonly used signal bypass capacitor from the hot side 
 to chassis often is quite leaky (simply, it has relatively low DC 
 resistance) or even shorted from age. I've been hit too many times while 
 handling these sets over the past 33 or 34 years.
 
 As with any of us troubleshooting computer power supplies while the power 
 is on, *always* stuff one hand into your pocket while probing around in the 
 circuit.
 
 Enough of this off topic radio stuff  --although I had to post this to 
 correct a seriously incorrect piece of advice given above. On topic part 
 could be to note that using an isolation transformer while poking around in 
 a computer's switching power supply could make accidentally touching a few 
 parts in the line-side of the PSU somewhat safer.
 
 Just being careful and focusing on where one's hands are at absolutely all 
 times is the safer way to go while having to work on live high voltage 
 circuits.
 
 Regards,  Chris
 -- --
 Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian 
 Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
 Member of Antique Wireless Association
     URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/
 
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 28 16:33:45 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: AC/DC radio precautions, was Old Radios
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981228145809.00ac9970@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Dec 28, 98 03:28:14 pm
Message-ID: 

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From roblwill at usaor.net  Mon Dec 28 21:13:30 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: Mac Portable Modem Init String
Message-ID: <01be32d9$35967f20$d48ea6d1@the-general>

Hi!

I was wondering if anyone knows the init string for the Mac Portable
Internal 2400 baud modem.

ThAnX,
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From roblwill at usaor.net  Mon Dec 28 21:24:41 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: Seagate ST-506 DIP switch settings needed
Message-ID: <01be32da$c5e79360$d48ea6d1@the-general>


>Probably no great point in that.  FDISK cannot usually see an ST-506/412
>interface HD that has not been low level formatted on the controller in
>use at the time. Set the switch for the appropriate cable, and power up
>the computer.  Bring up DEBUG and at the '-' prompt, enter DC800:0.
>If you see ASCII text that indicates that you are looking at a WD
>controller, then enter G=C800:5 and follow the prompts to low level
>format the disk.  If this is successful - if the disk is good - then
>FDISK should see it on the next bootup and you can go on from there.
>
>If it is not successful, you probably have a bad HD.  Also, if your
>DC800:0 search does not yield ASCII, try other addresses in 200H
>increments.  That is, such as CA00:0, CC00:0, etc.
>
I think I've narrowed it down to the controller being the problem.  I
remember seeing somewhere that the WD-XT-GEN won't recognize the original
ST-506.  I'll have to try it with another controller sometime, and if it
doesn't work, I'll try to find another HD.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From allisonp at world.std.com  Mon Dec 28 18:54:37 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <199812290054.AA22439@world.std.com>


The 386?
<
The 486?
<
The Pentium II?
<
 from "Jason Willgruber" at Dec 28, 98 04:07:22 pm
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From roblwill at usaor.net  Mon Dec 28 22:11:30 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!
Message-ID: <01be32e1$50655080$da8ea6d1@the-general>


>I would bet on the FDC still being OK, though. I've found the 1793 chip
>(the big 40 pin one) is very easy to zap. And you'll not test that without
>a working CPU board (the motor on/drive select logic is totally separate,
>BTW)
>
Probably.  No paper clips had fallen into it, and no signs of external
damage.  I really won't know if it's good or not 'till I get a new board.
Even if it is blown, I have a good, spare one.

>If you connect the CPU board to the PSU does the PSU still come on? Don't
>connect any other cables at this point. Do you have a scope or logic
>probe? If so, is there any activity on the Z80 pins?
>
It still turns on, but makes the CPU board seem more like a fog machine than
a computer, and it stinks up the house pretty bad.
I have a scope that someone was going to trash that appears to work, but I
don't have any cables but a couple of old multitester cables.
I doubt there would be any _useful_ activity on the Z80 pins.  The chip is
basically melted.  Most of the chips are like that.  There's paper clips
permanantly fused to other parts of the board.

>
>The model 4 keyboard is the same as the model 3 keyboard but with 5 etra
>swtiches. They're both 8*8 matrices of swtiches with some positions
>unused. And the keys are in the same electrical position on the 2
keyboards.
>
>So a model 3 keyboard should work with a model 4 CPU board - you just
>won't have the control/caps/F1/F2/F3 keys. Model 3 software running on
>the 'Model 4' shouldn't mind that. Some model 4 software will be hard to
>use without those extra keys, though.
>

Anyone have a spare Model 4 board laying around anywhere??
Model III?

ThAnX,
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Mon Dec 28 19:34:10 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <199812290112.UAA00167@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA29898; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:58:28 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote:
> > >Give an engineer a copy of the PC techrefs and count how many times he 
> > >says 'They did WHAT???' as he reads the schematics :-). It appears that 
> > >if there are 2 ways to do something, the PC always made the worst 
> > >choice...

But then, how many PCs are there of which this can be said? I can think
of:

*IBM PC - tony said it, not I
*Altair - I think the general consenus is that it was a cheap design
*IMSAI - The PSU and cooling design
*Apple /// - I guess the main problem w/these was the high-density board
*Mac Plus - The PSU and probably other stuff too
*VICs and C-* - I've heard almost everything about these

Of course, I would have included many modern computers, but one can hardly
give someone the techrefs for those :)

> There's a difference between a cheap (either to design or to manufacture) 
> design and a crazy design :-)

Any dangerous parts, like in the Mac Plus?

----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Mon Dec 28 19:45:42 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: Mac Portable Modem Init String
In-Reply-To: <199812290113.UAA00202@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA04520; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 16:21:55 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 roblwill@usaor.net wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> I was wondering if anyone knows the init string for the Mac Portable
> Internal 2400 baud modem.
> 
> ThAnX,

What terminal program have you tried using? According to the manual, you
must select "internal modem" in the "portable" control panel.
----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Mon Dec 28 19:49:41 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: Review: "History of Computing" CD
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <001701be32cd$80339060$6af438cb@a.davie>



--???????? _????????????? Andrew Davie
??? _? *? (_|?? _???????? adavie@mad.scientist.com

?? (/_??? _? , | )??????? ICQ 3297382 (boofly)??
?,???? ,~' L_|\??? _|
(?? ,-'??????? \? (_|???? http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie? +
?? (??????????? \?? _????? /slide? = Slide Rule Trading Post
\/? \??? __??? @/? (?????? /weird? = Weird Computing Machines
? _? L,~'? "\__/? _??????? /slide/calculator/soviet.html =
?(_|????????? v? (/_???????? Museum of Soviet Calculators
????? _|?????????????????? /javaslide/javaslide.html =
???? (_| *? \/\/???????????? Interactive Java Slide Rule


> -----Original Message-----
> From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu
> [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Tony Duell
> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 1998 6:03 AM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Re: Review: "History of Computing" CD
>
>
> >
> > Knowing I'm "in" to old computers, my in-laws bought me a really cool
> > looking CD for Christmas.  Called simply "History of Computing - An
>
> You know, I have never found a CD-ROM that rivals a good (paper) book for
> content or useability. I'm not saying they don't exist, but....
>
> > Encyclopedia of the People and Machines That Made Computer
> History", it had
> > great promise.  Although very appreciative of the thought behind the
> > present, I have to say that I simply hate this pathetic
> compilation. Taking
> > just 20Meg of the CD, as a single windows Help-file (!!), very poor
>
> Second minus-point. A CD like that should be platform independant. We
> have a platform independant format for hypertext, it's called HTML,
> right? So why not use it.
>
> > information (like, a couple of sentences for most machines) and <100
>
> You know, I know people (many on this list) who could fill a couple of CDs
> with information about a single classic computer, and then only have
> scratched the surface.
>
> Did it include any 'interesting' machines, or was it the standard
> Apple1/Altair 'history' ?
>
> ['Interesting' == a machine not known about - in detail - by most members
> of this list]
>
> -tony
>
>



From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Mon Dec 28 19:51:24 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:34 2005
Subject: Review: "History of Computing" CD
Message-ID: <001801be32cd$bd8d6f80$6af438cb@a.davie>

Apologies to all for my last posting - I hit the wrong button.
In answer to Tony's question - lots of 'interesting' machines, in that it
has a copy of the US Government's 1953 supercomputer survey - verbatim.
That is, about 3 lines of information for each.
Don't you wish, sometimes, that you could recall an email!
A

--

> > Did it include any 'interesting' machines, or was it the standard
> > Apple1/Altair 'history' ?
> >
> > ['Interesting' == a machine not known about - in detail - by
> most members
> > of this list]
> >
> > -tony
> >
> >



From roblwill at usaor.net  Mon Dec 28 22:55:40 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: Mac Portable Modem Init String
Message-ID: <01be32e7$7bafb720$8f9ba6d1@the-general>


I did.  I'm using Mac PPP, with System 7.5.  The program still wants an init
string.
>
>What terminal program have you tried using? According to the manual, you
>must select "internal modem" in the "portable" control panel.
>----------------------------------------------------
>Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor
>
>



From tim at thereviewguide.com  Mon Dec 28 18:18:41 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: 
References: <3.0.5.32.19981228080112.007f7b60@mail.thereviewguide.com> from "Tim Hotze" at Dec 28, 98 08:01:12 am
Message-ID: <199812290209.SAA08536@geocities.com>

> Now my second computer had 4_K_ of RAM - it was a TRS-80 model 1. My 
> first machine made do with 256 bytes...

But you've got to admit that I'm doing a good job of catching up, 
'specially if you grade on a curve for most PC users. 
> -tony
Tim




From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 28 20:09:10 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To:  from "Max Eskin" at Dec 28, 98 08:34:10 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 28 20:11:12 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!
In-Reply-To: <01be32e1$50655080$da8ea6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Dec 28, 98 08:11:30 pm
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From roblwill at usaor.net  Mon Dec 28 23:37:46 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!
Message-ID: <01be32ed$5cfbdb00$8f9ba6d1@the-general>

>Oh, I see. Any ideas where the smoke is coming from? As is well known,
>computers and ICs run on smoke, so when the smoke comes out they stop
>working...
>
Basically, it's coming from everywhere.  I think it's mostly the enamel
burning off the traces, and from the melting Z80.

>> I have a scope that someone was going to trash that appears to work, but
I
>> don't have any cables but a couple of old multitester cables.
>> I doubt there would be any _useful_ activity on the Z80 pins.  The chip
is
>> basically melted.  Most of the chips are like that.  There's paper clips
>> permanantly fused to other parts of the board.
>
>Ouch!!! I'm not going to try to reproduce this, but I wonder what
>actually happened. Yes, OK, paper clips shorted all sorts of things
>out, but what did all the damage?
>
Huh?  The solder melted in a lot of the places, and the paper clips stuck to
it.  There's a lot of fried traces, too.  Instead of trying to fix it, I'd
be MUCH better off just finding another board.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Dec 28 21:03:16 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: Impatient RSX-11M Question
Message-ID: 

OK, I'll admit it, I hate waiting for RSX-11M to shutdown when I'm in a
hurry to reboot into RT-11.  How important is it to do a proper shutup?
Modern OS's care, does RSX?

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From jpero at pop.cgocable.net  Mon Dec 28 16:16:49 1998
From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!
In-Reply-To: <01be32ed$5cfbdb00$8f9ba6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: <199812290310.WAA08120@mail.cgocable.net>

> Date:          Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:37:46 -0800
> Reply-to:      classiccmp@u.washington.edu
> From:          "Jason Willgruber" 
> To:            "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
> Subject:       Re: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!
> X-To:          

> >> basically melted.  Most of the chips are like that.  There's paper clips
> >> permanantly fused to other parts of the board.
> >
> >Ouch!!! I'm not going to try to reproduce this, but I wonder what
> >actually happened. Yes, OK, paper clips shorted all sorts of things
> >out, but what did all the damage?
> >
> Huh?  The solder melted in a lot of the places, and the paper clips stuck to
> it.  There's a lot of fried traces, too.  Instead of trying to fix it, I'd
> be MUCH better off just finding another board.

The RS tandy model III circuit board is very weak and burns out like 
that, very terrible at solder rework.  Better off find another board 
or a couple of donors?  Oh, I have at least 4 pulls of those little 
switching PSU's but those are very common size and pinouts, I saw 
several in other devices with better current ratings.  One was in 
Cipher external drive for example.  BUT, you could in theory pull
the newflagled 200W PS/2 style clone PSU's and rid the "humming" 
monster tranformer with regulators and caps and feed the floppy drive 
from that self-same 200W switcher?  

One thing I ASK:  HOW come those clips can slip in those slotted 
vents (it's blocked by screening too!) and trap into their deadly 
short circuits act on that _VERTICAL_ board?!  I thought that would 
be more possible if the boards were horizontal.

That is what I'm talking about in those silver-grey clamshell with
9" mono monitor, space for 2 5.25" FDs, orange reset key, great 
keyboard, cutouts for 2 extra add on cards to interface with outside 
world for external boxens.  Power rocker switch on right side just 
underside.

I had it years ago but it blew up somewhere by stray static.  No 
smoke to hint at all.

Jason D.
> --
>                  -Jason Willgruber
 
email: jpero@cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Dec 28 21:15:53 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: OT: OS/2 2.0
In-Reply-To: <199812281711.JAA15239@geocities.com>
Message-ID: 

>I know this is somewhat off-topic, since OS/2 2.0 is too new, but does
>anyone know where I could get the software to get it to connect to the
>internet via PPP? I installed it, and it's a fairly nice system.

IIRC, TCP/IP was an expensive add-on for OS/2 2.0, but I've not run 2.0/2.1
since '93.  Plus that was before I was networking my systems.

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From red at bears.org  Mon Dec 28 21:29:27 1998
From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!
In-Reply-To: <199812290310.WAA08120@mail.cgocable.net>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 jpero@pop.cgocable.net wrote:

> That is what I'm talking about in those silver-grey clamshell with
> 9" mono monitor, space for 2 5.25" FDs, orange reset key, great 
> keyboard, cutouts for 2 extra add on cards to interface with outside 
> world for external boxens.  Power rocker switch on right side just 
> underside.

All this reminds me that I'm still searching for disk drives and attendant
hardware (and software) for my Model III.

-- 
ok
r.					r e d  @  b e a r s . o r g
					===========================
					[ urs longa | vita brevis ]



From roblwill at usaor.net  Tue Dec 29 00:23:10 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!
Message-ID: <01be32f3$b49a37c0$8f9ba6d1@the-general>



*One thing I ASK:  HOW come those clips can slip in those slotted
*vents (it's blocked by screening too!) and trap into their deadly
*short circuits act on that _VERTICAL_ board?!  I thought that would
*be more possible if the boards were horizontal.

Well, there was no screen on the vents in _this_ TRS-80.  Also, when I got
the computer (it had been in a flooded basement), the rear CPU board
shield/cove had rusted fairly bad, and when it was on, the computer wouldn't
boot, so it wasn't there.  I'm not sure of the exact path the paper clips
took, but once they hit electric current, they stayed there.  The one that
fell across the 120v main PSU power connector actually fused to the
connector, and I had to use a wire cutter to remove it.

*That is what I'm talking about in those silver-grey clamshell with
*9" mono monitor, space for 2 5.25" FDs, orange reset key, great
*keyboard, cutouts for 2 extra add on cards to interface with outside
*world for external boxens.  Power rocker switch on right side just
*underside.

Sort of.  It's got a 12"mono TV tube in the case.  Clamshell?  Isn't that
what they called the Zenith laptops?  Or are you referring to the color?
Mine had the two floppies, and the two cutouts for the add-on cards were for
serial and floppy (serial was optional, the floppy one was just the bottom
of the FDC).  Mine had both, although the serial card (which never worked
right) is a charred mess.  I'm not sure how it happened, either.  There
weren't even any paperclips in it.

*I had it years ago but it blew up somewhere by stray static.  No
*smoke to hint at all

The whole side of my basement had a slight fog.  The whole house stunk, too.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318





From roblwill at usaor.net  Tue Dec 29 00:28:23 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!
Message-ID: <01be32f4$6f5fa220$8f9ba6d1@the-general>

>
>All this reminds me that I'm still searching for disk drives and attendant
>hardware (and software) for my Model III.
>
Just throw in any old 360k drive.  It'll work.  Mine had one original TRS-80
drive, an IBM drive pulled from a PC, and the external drives were an IBM
4869 with a toshiba 360k drive pulled from a Leading Edge duct-taped on top
of it, using the 4869 P/S.  The controllers for the externals were salvaged
from dead Mod. I disk boxes, and housed in a Tupperware freezer container
that sat behind the drives.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Dec 28 21:54:13 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: RT-11: DUSTAT Question
Message-ID: 

On RT-11 does DUSTAT care what kind of a disk controller you've got?  I
just spent a bunch of time fighting to get it onto my RT-11 system only to
find out that once I got it assembled, it doesn't like something about the
system.  I suspect it's either the WEQSD ESDI Controller, or the ESDI
drives I'm using.  It gives the following error:

?DUSTAT-F-No translation for this unit! (?)

Or am I confused and using the wrong syntax?

.DUSTAT DU2:


			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From red at bears.org  Mon Dec 28 21:55:35 1998
From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!
In-Reply-To: <01be32f4$6f5fa220$8f9ba6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 28 Dec 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote:

> >All this reminds me that I'm still searching for disk drives and attendant
> >hardware (and software) for my Model III.
> >
> Just throw in any old 360k drive.  It'll work.  Mine had one original TRS-80
> drive, an IBM drive pulled from a PC, and the external drives were an IBM

I'm aware of that. Because mine did not come with ANY disk drives, it is
also missing the drive mounting tower, drive PSU card, and controller.

-- 
ok
r.					r e d  @  b e a r s . o r g
					===========================
					[ urs longa | vita brevis ]



From dburrows at netpath.net  Mon Dec 28 22:24:03 1998
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: Impatient RSX-11M Question
Message-ID: <055201be32e3$95cf2c20$bf281bce@p166>



>OK, I'll admit it, I hate waiting for RSX-11M to shutdown when I'm in a
>hurry to reboot into RT-11.  How important is it to do a proper shutup?
>Modern OS's care, does RSX?
>
I just make sure nothing is writing to the disk and switch off.  If
everything is idle just kill it.  I have never had one come back to get me
in over 18 years.  This works if you are the only user.
Dan



From roblwill at usaor.net  Tue Dec 29 02:11:57 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!
Message-ID: <01be3302$e788b580$8f9ba6d1@the-general>


Oh.  I didin't know that.  You've got one of the cassette models.  Wanna
sell the M/B??
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318


>I'm aware of that. Because mine did not come with ANY disk drives, it is
>also missing the drive mounting tower, drive PSU card, and controller.
>
>--
>ok
>r. r e d  @  b e a r s . o r g
> ===========================
> [ urs longa | vita brevis ]
>
>



From Pjoules1 at cs.com  Mon Dec 28 23:32:32 1998
From: Pjoules1 at cs.com (Pjoules1@cs.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
Message-ID: <4eaf3da1.36886970@cs.com>

In a message dated 28/12/98 16:03:08 GMT Standard Time, marvin@rain.org
writes:

>  I suspect a virus, but my antivius software
>  > didn't find one, but I don't really trust it.  I only really trust it if 
> it
>  > find a virus...)
>  
>  One of the ways I use to check for a virus is to run CHKDSK and look at the
>  total memory.  For a number of viruses I have seen, the normal number of
>  655360 gets reduced to some other value.

Many stealth viruses can hide from virus checkers as well as not showing the
memory they occcupy as used.  When you ran the scanner did you boot from a
_known_clean_ write protected floppy, this is essential for reliable scanning.
Also, you do not say  what virus scanning software you are using bear in mind
that MS anti virus doesn't detect many common viruses.

Regards
Pete


From red at bears.org  Mon Dec 28 23:39:17 1998
From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!
In-Reply-To: <01be3302$e788b580$8f9ba6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote:

> Oh.  I didin't know that.  You've got one of the cassette models.  Wanna
> sell the M/B??

Impasse. (: No, I don't.

The Model III was my family's first computer... it had 48k and a disk
drive; I wish we hadn't sold it. Mine is a 16k casssette model, and I'm
hoping to find the bits I need to upgrade it to what we had before.

TRS-80s weren't particularly popular round my neck of the woods, and it's
been extraordinariliy difficult to find any of or anything for them.

-- 
ok
r.					r e d  @  b e a r s . o r g
					===========================
					[ urs longa | vita brevis ]



From donm at cts.com  Mon Dec 28 23:38:10 1998
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: Seagate ST-506 DIP switch settings needed
In-Reply-To: <01be32da$c5e79360$d48ea6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 28 Dec 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote:

> I think I've narrowed it down to the controller being the problem.  I
> remember seeing somewhere that the WD-XT-GEN won't recognize the original
> ST-506.  I'll have to try it with another controller sometime, and if it
> doesn't work, I'll try to find another HD.
> --

I've not heard that, though I suppose it is possible.  Just don't try an 
RLL controller.  The ST-506 is most unlikely to accept that!

						 - don



From hansp at digiweb.com  Tue Dec 29 00:33:47 1998
From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: Old Microsoft MSX standard?
References: <006501be326a$cb688760$e0e5fea9@mainoffice>
Message-ID: <368877CB.5BB9599C@digiweb.com>

Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote:

>     While reading some late-1984 Byte mags, I came across a description of
> the Microsoft MSX computer standard. Implemented mostly by Japanese computer
> manufacturers, an MSX computer is CP/M based with 32k of RAM, a cassette

Well, more accurately Z80 based, I do not know of any CP/M
implementations on MSX computers...

> port, RF modulator, and cartridge slots for expansion. I picture a Z80-based
> VIC-20 or C64, although not in that physical form.
> 
>     Anyone have any info on this?

These were quite popular in Europe, I have two or three examples. There
is quite a strong following on the net. I also have a couple of books
describing the architecture as dictated by M$.

What more do you want to know?

Regards

_---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___-
Hans B Pufal                          Comprehensive Computer Catalogue
             


From jpero at pop.cgocable.net  Mon Dec 28 23:27:37 1998
From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!
In-Reply-To: <01be32f3$b49a37c0$8f9ba6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: <199812291021.FAA14451@mail.cgocable.net>

> Date:          Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:23:10 -0800
> Reply-to:      classiccmp@u.washington.edu
> From:          "Jason Willgruber" 
> To:            "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
> Subject:       Re: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!
> X-To:          


> 
> Well, there was no screen on the vents in _this_ TRS-80.  Also, when I got
> the computer (it had been in a flooded basement), the rear CPU board
I think you're gotten a rotten machine in first place that had no 
protection like that kind of accidents that happens.   Get the boards 
and metal screening from hardware, clean and hotglue and few screws 
it over all the top vents from underside side.  Just in case. 

> connector, and I had to use a wire cutter to remove it.
Typical!  That area is not fused.

I do recall there were screenings in all those vent slots.

> 
> *That is what I'm talking about in those silver-grey clamshell with
> 
> Sort of.  It's got a 12"mono TV tube in the case.  Clamshell?  Isn't that
> what they called the Zenith laptops?  Or are you referring to the color?

The Clamshell is where you have to open 2 halves apart to get in.

> 
> The whole side of my basement had a slight fog.  The whole house stunk, too.

Are u now airing the house out of that reek?  You really don't want 
the smell to take a set in *everything*.

I had a Z19 blow it 1/2W  resistor and I DID saw it let go, glowing 
like a stove element on full.  Beauiful orange and did stank up the 
huge room where I worked as a assistant tech back in '90.
Funny, that area where it blew, I couldn't found a bad trannies 
anywhere.  That is real puzzler that I didn't solve.  Oh well!

Jason D.
> --
>                  -Jason Willgruber
 
email: jpero@cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.


From tim at thereviewguide.com  Tue Dec 29 03:10:03 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <199812290054.AA22439@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <199812291101.DAA27857@geocities.com>

> Your way off.  First off intel is the process leader.  But when you require
> everything to be 16bits wide like memory, address latches, byte/word logic
> and other nifty things to get to 16bit wide the cost goes up for the system.
> the cost to produce the 8088 and the 8086 was nearly the same save for the 
> 8088 was cheaper due to volumes and not technology.

Now I'm starting to see your point.  But I hold my case that it was 
a sluggish performer, and at the time, there were definately better 
processors to choose from, if you look at the overall resulting 
system.

> very true.  I was running a 8086/8mhz Multibus based system with 512k of 
> ram and a 5mb hard disk and 1mb 8" floppies when the IBM PC was introduced.
> Needless to say I was appalled at it's terminally poor performance.

Yeah, but that was a killer system!  But think if that had held true 
to this day.  People would be bragging about thier 'new' 75MHz 
Pentiums!

 
> nope.  The 486 executed instruction in fewer cycles and had several 
> features that made it faster internally for the same clock speed as a 386.

But it was poorly market positioned.  Seriously, there seriously 
wasn't anything in the lower end (IE $2000 home systems) of 32-bit 
PC computing that a 386 DX/33 couldn't do that a 486SX/25 or so 
could.  Sure, you'd get better performance and you could upgrade 
to a DX (as I did),  but it might not have been the choice for all 
users.

 
> the celeron is a pentium!  it's more integrated with the onboard cache 
> but it's also a fixed configuration so expanding it is harder.

A Pentium as in a Pentium or a PII?  If I Understand Correctly 
(IIUC),  it's just a PII with no external casing, and either no cache 
or 128K cache.  Even SMP is supported.  (Dual Celeron 333... 
nice.... cheap, for a 333MHz SMP system...)

> Also they were trying to get the x86 into the other non PC markets.

Which, unfortunately, failed for the most part.  There are a number 
of embedded solutions to this day, but for the most part for places 
that the average user usually assoicates with Intel Inside, a non-PC 
computer isn't one of them.
 
> The dynamics of the microprocessor market is more complex than you think.
> If MIPS was so good it would ahve pushed out x86.  Alpha is a 64bit cpu
> targetted at high end systems and the MicroVAX (32bit) was already well 
> established and faster than 386/486.

Yeah, but they started to late.  And for the mid-range server 
market, where you can get Alpha systems, they're not doing to 
well.  But MIPS are becoming common... they power the fastest of 
Windows CE HP/C's, the ultra-fast N64 (which, BTW, only has 
4MB RAM but can easily outperform any PII 450 with a 90MHz 
video card and 128MB RAM, if you look at realtime 3D).
 
> Yep! Now all your boards don't work in the new machine and most of the 
> older PCI ones don't behave either.
> What will merced run... pentium emulator so there is software for it.

Maybe it'll be hardware.  But anyway, it might fail, but I'd doubt it.  
You've got to admit that the time is well past ripe for 64-bit to take 
over for the server market.  Sure, the Alpha might be better, but 
PHB's prevent lots of good non-Intel solutions (this, of course, 
being why you've got lots and lots of PC's with their huge memory 
requirements, etc.)

But for a server, current add-on cards won't really be too much of a 
hastle. 
> Allison
Tim



From tim at thereviewguide.com  Tue Dec 29 03:10:03 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
In-Reply-To: <4eaf3da1.36886970@cs.com>
Message-ID: <199812291101.DAA27917@geocities.com>

> Many stealth viruses can hide from virus checkers as well as not showing the
> memory they occcupy as used.  When you ran the scanner did you boot from a
> _known_clean_ write protected floppy, this is essential for reliable scanning.
> Also, you do not say  what virus scanning software you are using bear in mind
> that MS anti virus doesn't detect many common viruses.

Yes, I booted from a write protected floppy, but before that I did a 
virus scan with a normal boot.  

And of course I don't use MS Anit Virus.  IIRC, it hasn't been 
updated since 1992 when Windows 3.1 shipped!
 
> Regards
> Pete
Tim 




From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Dec 29 09:17:30 1998
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: video reversing
In-Reply-To: <01be3151$b5bfa3e0$ae8ea6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: <199812291418.OAA26106@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>


> I've got an old CGA laptop.  (1988 Zenith SupersPORT).  The display is dark
> blue on light blue.  I was wondering if there's any software out there that
> will reverse the video so that the text is light blue, and the background is
> dark blue.

Is it realy a colour display ? AFAIR these where B&W LCDs with
a blueish backlight - so the dark blue is just 'less' blue
due a switched on cell :) The only solution is to select for
all used programms fore/background colours that match your need,
like black on white whitch should result in light blue on dark
blue - but belive me, the readability is poor.


Gruss
H.

--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK


From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Tue Dec 29 08:40:25 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <199812291432.JAA00135@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA12194; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 18:18:45 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 29 Dec 1998 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote:
> What's particularly dangerous about the Mac Plus? I don't recall it being 
> that bad when I was inside one.

You mentioned live parts in the power supply that shouldn't be live, IIRC
----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Tue Dec 29 08:42:53 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
In-Reply-To: <199812291433.JAA00174@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA08495; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:34:45 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 29 Dec 1998 Pjoules1@cs.com wrote:
> Also, you do not say  what virus scanning software you are using bear in mind
> that MS anti virus doesn't detect many common viruses.

Such as Windows 95...sorry, couldn't resist
----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From roblwill at usaor.net  Tue Dec 29 02:35:29 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: video reversing
Message-ID: <01be3306$311913e0$5d8ea6d1@the-general>

>
>Is it realy a colour display ? AFAIR these where B&W LCDs with
>a blueish backlight - so the dark blue is just 'less' blue
>due a switched on cell :) The only solution is to select for
>all used programms fore/background colours that match your need,
>like black on white whitch should result in light blue on dark
>blue - but belive me, the readability is poor.
>
It's Color in the fact that it uses shades of blue instead of shades of
gray.  The dark blue is actually a switched off cell.  I know it sounds
backwards, but when I disconnected the video cable once, and only the
backlight was on, the whole thing was dark blue.

I tried a little program that reverses the color, until something else
changes it, and it's actually easier to read (as long as the contrast is set
right).  It's actually easier to read than some CRT's that I've seen,
because the letters aren't fuzzed out at the edges.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From Pjoules1 at cs.com  Tue Dec 29 12:00:46 1998
From: Pjoules1 at cs.com (Pjoules1@cs.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
Message-ID: <9280813e.368918ce@cs.com>

In a message dated 29/12/98 11:03:53 GMT Standard Time, tim@thereviewguide.com
writes:

> 
>  Yes, I booted from a write protected floppy, but before that I did a 
>  virus scan with a normal boot.  

A basic precaution of which some are not aware.

>  And of course I don't use MS Anit Virus.  IIRC, it hasn't been 
>  updated since 1992 when Windows 3.1 shipped!
>   
Once again, you would be surprised how many people trust it.

Regards
Pete


From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com  Tue Dec 29 14:20:48 1998
From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (jruschme@hiway1.exit109.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: Which MathCo for a 387SL
Message-ID: <199812292020.PAA15838@hiway1.exit109.com>

Okay, so it's a little new for the list...

Next week I'm going to try and finally rebuild the 80386SL-based notebook 
that's been a pet project for a while. Since I'll have it open, I thought 
I might go ahead and install a math coprocessor. My only question is... 
which one?

The 386SL was Intel's "notebook" CPU. Does it require a 387DX, 387SX, or 
something else altogether? If it's the 387SX, can I use a Cyrix FastMath, 
as I have a spare.

Thanks...
<<>>



From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Tue Dec 29 14:46:18 1998
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: Which MathCo for a 387SL
In-Reply-To: <199812292020.PAA15838@hiway1.exit109.com> from "jruschme@hiway1.exit109.com" at Dec 29, 1998 08:20:48 PM
Message-ID: <199812292046.NAA26692@calico.litterbox.com>

> 
> Okay, so it's a little new for the list...
> 
> Next week I'm going to try and finally rebuild the 80386SL-based notebook 
> that's been a pet project for a while. Since I'll have it open, I thought 
> I might go ahead and install a math coprocessor. My only question is... 
> which one?
> 
> The 386SL was Intel's "notebook" CPU. Does it require a 387DX, 387SX, or 
> something else altogether? If it's the 387SX, can I use a Cyrix FastMath, 
> as I have a spare.
> 
> Thanks...
> <<>>
> 

According to the websites I've found, the 386sl is a 386sx with power 
management.  This suggests that a 387sx - or your Cyrix - might be the 
appropriate part.

the web site is at http://telecom.tbi.net/comphis.html.  Intel, naturally,
has no information on the 386sl except about its year 2000 compatibility.

According to SupportTandy.com, their 386sl laptop takes a 387sx or sl 
coprocessor, so I think I'm borne out here. 
(http://support.tandy.com/support_computer/doc1/1211.htm) 
-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vote Meadocrat!  Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


From tim at thereviewguide.com  Tue Dec 29 15:29:10 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812291433.JAA00174@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA08495; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:34:45 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <199812292130.NAA08774@geocities.com>

> Such as Windows 95...sorry, couldn't resist

You could just install the ultimate Service Pack for Windows... 
Linux.

> Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor

Tim 




From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Dec 29 15:37:39 1998
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
In-Reply-To: <199812292130.NAA08774@geocities.com>
Message-ID: 

> Such as Windows 95...sorry, couldn't resist

Windoze95 is NOT a VIRUS!!!!

A virus does not require anywhere near that level of conscious effort to 
install.  Try "Trojan Horse".


From tim at thereviewguide.com  Tue Dec 29 15:41:03 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
In-Reply-To: <9280813e.368918ce@cs.com>
Message-ID: <199812292142.NAA28380@geocities.com>

> A basic precaution of which some are not aware.

Which most, with the exception of people who are relatively 
technically inclined.  I probably am, or close to, the least 
technically knowledgeable person on the list, due to age, 
inexperience, lack of intelligence, or a mixture.  But if I were to go 
on the streets almost anywhere, I'd be way above the average.
 
> >  And of course I don't use MS Anit Virus.  IIRC, it hasn't been 
> >  updated since 1992 when Windows 3.1 shipped!
> >   
> Once again, you would be surprised how many people trust it.
I know.  I got my friend a CD for his birthday like 2 years ago, IIRC, 
it was something he'd liked on my computer for some time, and I 
believe it was from Interplay.  The first thing he did (after removing 
the shringwrap)?  Pop the CD in (relatively full at 550MB) and virus 
scanned the entire thing.  Now, with his 4x CDROM, it didn't go to 
well.  He did this with MS Anti Virus... 1) Software programs on 
media ususally don't contain viruses. 2) Interplay is a well-known 
publisher, and would not have had a virus on any of it's products if it 
wanted to stay in business for more than a couple more weeks.  3) 
It was shrwinkwrapped.  4) MS Antivirus wouldn't recognize a 1997 
virus if it needed to.  (Sheesh! 1997 was two years ago!  Man!)

Tim


From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com  Tue Dec 29 16:17:40 1998
From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: TIP manuals?
Message-ID: <13415724859.12.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>

Anyone have any docs/etc. for a TIP?
(Terminal Interface Processor)
-------


From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Tue Dec 29 16:40:17 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: more interesting finds!
References: <000001be337a$af188900$6b82cdcf@server>
Message-ID: <36895A50.B07C5EFB@bigfoot.com>

For anyone in the Champaign-Urbana Illinois area looking for a scrap yard that
gets computer and electronic stuff to strip, there is a yard across from UPS
just north of I-74 in Urbana, Linclon Ave I believe. You need to talk to the
manager/owner though so you know when a load comes in so there's enough time to
sift through before they pull it apart. I believe he sells by scrap value, very
cheap.

I don't live there anymore but used to haunt that yard once a week for old
electronics and auto parts. back when I did up until 1994. They are still there
and will be for some time.

musicman38@mindspring.com wrote:

> Hi Joe,
>     Where is this scrap place you are talking about?
> I know there are a couple of them here, never thought of looking there
> before. Do they sell you the stuff as scrap ?
> Or by the pound..?
>
> Phil..
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe 
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> 
> Date: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 9:27 AM
> Subject: more interesting finds!
>
> >I went to a scrap place yesterday and found a couple of interesting items.
> >One is a 16K core memory board for a Data General Nova. Huge sucker!  It's
> >marked "DATA GENERAL CORP  DGC NOVA 800 16K MEMORY STACK copyright 1973".
> >Anyone need this or should I just hang it on the wall to admire?
> >
> >
> >  I also found several odd looking boxs that are labled as HDS ViewStation.
> >they're made by a company called Human Designed Systems.  They're about 2"
> >tall and 12" square. They have connectors for all the following; thick and
> >thin ethernet, twisted pair, sun keyboard, standard PC keyboard, RJ serial
> >port, DB-25 serial, DB-25 parallel, PS-2 mouse and standard VGA video.
> >Does anyone know what these are or why they have so many ports?
> >
> >    Joe
> >
> >
> >



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Tue Dec 29 19:10:33 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: more interesting finds!
In-Reply-To: <000001be337a$af188900$6b82cdcf@server>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981229191033.0ebf1e76@intellistar.net>

Phil,

  They're in the Melbourne area.  One is a surplus place but a lot of the
"good" stuff never gets to their store sincce they figure no one wants it.
They had PILES of MACs a few weeks ago.  BTW I was there the other day and
found the remains of a CRAY!! It was already gutted, nothing left but the
frame and power supply.

   The other is a company that buys old computers and tears them down for
scrap.  I've found lots of interesting stuff there. They usually charge by
the size. Lap top computers are $10, SUN computers are $50 -$75 or MORE
(he's no dummy!), old HP computers are $10 to $20.

  You should definitely check out the scrap places there.  Make sure they
know that you're interested in OLD computers.  Lots of those places are
caught up in the two-years-old-and-it's-obselete PC cycle. Make up some
cards and leave them with them.  Give them my number for HP calculators and
other stuff :-)

    Joe

At 12:18 PM 11/25/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi Joe,
>    Where is this scrap place you are talking about?
>I know there are a couple of them here, never thought of looking there
>before. Do they sell you the stuff as scrap ?
>Or by the pound..?
>
>Phil..
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Joe 
>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
>
>Date: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 9:27 AM
>Subject: more interesting finds!
>
>
>>I went to a scrap place yesterday and found a couple of interesting items.
>>One is a 16K core memory board for a Data General Nova. Huge sucker!  It's
>>marked "DATA GENERAL CORP  DGC NOVA 800 16K MEMORY STACK copyright 1973".
>>Anyone need this or should I just hang it on the wall to admire?
>>
>>
>>  I also found several odd looking boxs that are labled as HDS ViewStation.
>>they're made by a company called Human Designed Systems.  They're about 2"
>>tall and 12" square. They have connectors for all the following; thick and
>>thin ethernet, twisted pair, sun keyboard, standard PC keyboard, RJ serial
>>port, DB-25 serial, DB-25 parallel, PS-2 mouse and standard VGA video.
>>Does anyone know what these are or why they have so many ports?
>>
>>    Joe
>>
>>
>>
>
>



From gram at cnct.com  Tue Dec 29 17:28:11 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: Merced (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade)
References: <199812290054.AA22439@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <3689658B.2C1AD448@cnct.com>

Allison J Parent wrote:

> What will merced run... pentium emulator so there is software for it.

What will Merced run?

Linux and all apps from birth in native mode after recompile, Linus
himself is involved in that with help from lots of people -- most 
x86(Pentium and earlier) stuff either after recompile or under sundry
DOS/Windows emulation environments (recompile preferred).  There will
be no shortage of apps unless Intsell screws everything up pushing
obsolete processors (and their present commercial series has very
entertaining moments -- could easilly screw up Merced).
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From gram at cnct.com  Tue Dec 29 17:44:28 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
References: <3.0.5.32.19981227165122.007cf750@mail.thereviewguide.com>
	 <3.0.5.32.19981227165122.007cf750@mail.thereviewguide.com> <3.0.5.32.19981228064814.007cab10@mail.thereviewguide.com>
Message-ID: <3689695C.C5A69E8E@cnct.com>

Tim Hotze wrote:

> But I see your point... but remember, before being used on the IBM PC the
> 8088 had been on the market for 3 years, and probably in OEM's hands a year
> before that.

The 8086 had been around that long, the 8088 was done at IBM's
request -- the marketing concept worked well enough that the later
SX processors were done on purpose.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 29 15:53:03 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!
In-Reply-To: <199812290310.WAA08120@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@pop.cgocable.net" at Dec 28, 98 10:16:49 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 29 16:55:49 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To:  from "Max Eskin" at Dec 29, 98 09:40:25 am
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From gram at cnct.com  Tue Dec 29 17:56:04 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
References: <01be3206$b8a0efa0$4c8ea6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: <36896C14.8DAB1A50@cnct.com>

Jason Willgruber wrote:
> 
> Actually, Netscape still goes wacky with 32 MB RAM, and a 4.3gig HD on a
> P200.  I think that some of the free browsers (IE, Opera, Mosaic, even
> NETTAMER) outperform the overpriced netscrape.

How is Netscape overpriced when it's free?  (Admittedly some of the
built-in links lead to adverts).  IE is "free"?  It is to laugh.  It
only "runs" under 1.5 operating systems -- Windows and the new MacOS.
And it _really_ wants you to visit Microsoft and sign up for msn.com,
fuck, it insists on it.  It took my wife most of an hour to _not_
sign up for msn, gods help anybody without competent advice, who
might have given in.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From zmerch at 30below.com  Tue Dec 29 18:17:20 1998
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <36896C14.8DAB1A50@cnct.com>
References: <01be3206$b8a0efa0$4c8ea6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981229191720.00923d20@mail.30below.com>

Once upon a midnight dreary, Ward Donald Griffiths III had spoken clearly:
>Jason Willgruber wrote:
>> 
>> Actually, Netscape still goes wacky with 32 MB RAM, and a 4.3gig HD on a
>> P200.  I think that some of the free browsers (IE, Opera, Mosaic, even
>> NETTAMER) outperform the overpriced netscrape.
>
>How is Netscape overpriced when it's free?  (Admittedly some of the
>built-in links lead to adverts).  IE is "free"?  It is to laugh.  It
>only "runs" under 1.5 operating systems -- Windows and the new MacOS.
>And it _really_ wants you to visit Microsoft and sign up for msn.com,
>fuck, it insists on it.  It took my wife most of an hour to _not_
>sign up for msn, gods help anybody without competent advice, who
>might have given in.

Especially if you live in the boondocks (rural area for those not
accustomed to the slang) where MSN doesn't have a dial-up number. Then it
*automatically* dials 150 miles away - and doesn't tell you it's making a
long-distance call.

$300 (or more) phone bill later...

Oh, and Opera is *not* free. IIRC, they want $35 to register it. IMHO, it's
worth the money -- it's *very* fast, and doesn't seem to crash often. But -
it's not free.

Happy New Year,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger



From jpero at pop.cgocable.net  Tue Dec 29 13:22:59 1998
From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812290310.WAA08120@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@pop.cgocable.net" at Dec 28, 98 10:16:49 pm
Message-ID: <199812300022.TAA04603@mail.cgocable.net>

> Date:          Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:53:03 +0000 (GMT)
> Reply-to:      classiccmp@u.washington.edu
> From:          ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
> To:            "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" 
> Subject:       Re: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!

> Odd... I've repaired dozens of TRS-80s (Model 1, Model 3, Model 4, CoCos) 
> and never had any trouble soldering on the PCBs. Unlike some PCBs I could 
> name...

Well, those PCB's are ones that lifts and burns very easily even with 
highly care and a lowest temperature possble solder iron station.

The broad traces are wrinkled and bubbled, light green in colour and 
coating is easily comes off.

> I hate it when people do that! I'd much rather _repair_ the original PSU 
> and keep my machine factory-original than have a machine that the service 
> manual no longer applies to. It really annoys me to get a second-hand 
> machine with some fault, pull out the service docs, open the case and 
> find that they do not apply.

Some switcher PSUs are tandy's make too, I have 4 of them, saw the
service techanical manual on everything including that monster 
tranformer.

> What 'Monster Transformer'? Every Model 3 that I've ever seen uses a 
> couple of little Astec SMPSUs (and yes, I have worked on 110V-only 
> units). Never seen a mains-frequency transformer in one

That transformer is under the floppy, and is about tad under 25" 
cubic size.  Saw them in few III's.  Those III's are very popular in 
high school they're by bunches.

> The screening was _optional_ (!). It was added to meet some FCC rule, and 
> early units, and units sold outside the US don't have it. Neither my 
> Model 3 nor Model 4 have ever had a screen over the CPU board. The tech 
> manual mentions this somewhere.

So, add screen forward on.  No more blown boards and smelly house.
:-)

> 12" monitor, actually.
Okay.

> -tony
> 
 
email: jpero@cgocable.net
Pero, Jason D.


From roblwill at usaor.net  Tue Dec 29 09:18:39 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <01be333e$834552e0$ca8ea6d1@the-general>

>How is Netscape overpriced when it's free?  (Admittedly some of the
>built-in links lead to adverts).  IE is "free"?  It is to laugh.  It
>only "runs" under 1.5 operating systems -- Windows and the new MacOS.
>And it _really_ wants you to visit Microsoft and sign up for msn.com,
>fuck, it insists on it.  It took my wife most of an hour to _not_
>sign up for msn, gods help anybody without competent advice, who
>might have given in.


Last time I checked on it, Netscrape Communicator was somewhere around $45
in the stores, where IE was free with about 10 different programs.
Netscrape came with the program that I bought, and it was a stripped version
that kept wanting me to sent $30 to Netscrape, and it stopped working after
6 months (date stamped).  Let's see...IE only wanted me to sign up with MSN
once, and that was because I used an MSN trial CD to install it.  First time
I ran it, I simply went into the settings, set the start page as blank, and
Bingo!  no MSN.  If you ever noticed, When you got Netscrape on an AOL CD,
it  _really_ wants you to sign up for AOL AND pay $30 to them.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318


Seems to me that I remember an old version of IE that was for OS/2, too.



From gene at ehrich.com  Tue Dec 29 18:27:49 1998
From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: OT: OS/2 2.0
In-Reply-To: <199812281711.JAA15239@geocities.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981229192654.00937760@popmail.voicenet.com>

At 11:47 AM 12/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I know this is somewhat off-topic, since OS/2 2.0 is too new, but does
>anyone know where I could get the software to get it to connect to the
>internet via PPP? I installed it, and it's a fairly nice system.

Check my IBM for sale page on my web site.
I think I may have what you want.

Gene

               gene@ehrich
   http://www.voicenet.com/~generic
Computer & Video Game Garage Sale

Gene Ehrich
PO Box 209
Marlton NJ
08053-0209


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 29 18:14:29 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
In-Reply-To: <199812292142.NAA28380@geocities.com> from "Tim Hotze" at Dec 29, 98 05:41:03 pm
Message-ID: 

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From roblwill at usaor.net  Tue Dec 29 09:21:48 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <01be333e$f41728e0$ca8ea6d1@the-general>

>
>Especially if you live in the boondocks (rural area for those not
>accustomed to the slang) where MSN doesn't have a dial-up number. Then it
>*automatically* dials 150 miles away - and doesn't tell you it's making a
>long-distance call.
>
>$300 (or more) phone bill later...
>
Not if you go into the IE4 directory and directly run the installation of
the browser, instead of running the MSN setup.

>Oh, and Opera is *not* free. IIRC, they want $35 to register it. IMHO, it's
>worth the money -- it's *very* fast, and doesn't seem to crash often. But -
>it's not free.
>
Similar to what Netscape does (last version I had did it).  I think it is
better, though.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From roblwill at usaor.net  Tue Dec 29 09:25:40 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!
Message-ID: <01be333f$7e7055c0$ca8ea6d1@the-general>

*The broad traces are wrinkled and bubbled, light green in colour and
*coating is easily comes off.


Yup.  And that coating burns easily, too.


*That transformer is under the floppy, and is about tad under 25"
*cubic size.  Saw them in few III's.  Those III's are very popular in
*high school they're by bunches.

Woah!  a 25 cubic inch transformer!  I hope that's a typo.  It wouldn't even
fit in the case.  Must be some special model of III.  The only thing that's
under the floppies on mine (or any others that I've ever seen) is the ribbon
cable from the keyboard.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From allisonp at world.std.com  Tue Dec 29 18:32:29 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <199812300032.AA02902@world.std.com>




Message-ID: <3689782E.7AE3255B@cnct.com>

Tony Duell wrote:
> 
> > The PC was introduced in 1981.  IBM had no clue as to how popular it would
> > become, or who their customers would be.  The cassette interface was there
> > to provide for a less expensive entry-level system.  They soon discovered
> > that almost everyone that bought a PC bought a floppy disk controller and
> > drive.
> 
> Has anyone ever seen an IBM PC without disk drives? I certainly never have.

Yup.  Unimpressed me.  Cost a bloody fortune and wasn't as good as a 
Radio Shack Color Computer, let alone the TRS-80 Model 2 that'd been 
around a couple of years.  After I saw it _with_ disk drives, I wasn't
very impressed either.  No 8088 box ever equalled a contemporary 6809
box, and was hard-pressed to rival a Z-80.  (I can track down
documentation to the effect that the IBM PC was in large part a
reaction to the mainframe connectivity options of the TRS-80 Model 2
-- though it was a long while before IBM offered SNA/SDLC in its
"personal" computers).
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From allisonp at world.std.com  Tue Dec 29 18:42:25 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <199812300042.AA11239@world.std.com>



Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981229194959.00971a80@mail.30below.com>

Once upon a midnight dreary, Jason Willgruber had spoken clearly:

>Last time I checked on it, Netscrape Communicator was somewhere around $45
>in the stores,

But *free* to download from the web. To purchase IE *all by itself* costs
money, too. They can't print books / cd's, etc. for free.

>Netscrape came with the program that I bought, and it was a stripped version
>that kept wanting me to sent $30 to Netscrape, and it stopped working after
>6 months (date stamped).

Netscape has not *always* been free. It was turned into free software in
(IIRC) October or November of '97. Since then, if you got a stripped
version, you *asked* for it (to save space) and all date-disabled versions
of the software disappeared.

You can still download Version 2.02, 3.04 and 4.0x from their archive site
- it's not fast, but it's now free, and has been for the last 14 months or so.

>  Let's see...IE only wanted me to sign up with MSN
>once, and that was because I used an MSN trial CD to install it.

Installed '98 lately? It's a lot more insistant with that OS. Especially if
you go under "Win 98 Setup" and uncheck the "Install MSN" there. *It
Doesn't Uninstall!*

>If you ever noticed, When you got Netscrape on an AOL CD,
>it  _really_ wants you to sign up for AOL AND pay $30 to them.

That's AOL... not Netscape. Don't blame the *browser* for the *content
provider's* greed.

>Seems to me that I remember an old version of IE that was for OS/2, too.

Can you still get it?  ---  They had a version that was supposed to run on
Linux, too. They almost got it out - 6 months or so behind schedule, then
they scrapped it. Pi$$ed off some users with that one... Billy-bob doesn't
care, tho.

Regards,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger



From red at bears.org  Tue Dec 29 18:55:59 1998
From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:35 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981229194959.00971a80@mail.30below.com>
Message-ID: 


> >Seems to me that I remember an old version of IE that was for OS/2, too.

I think you're confusing it with the browser called 'Web Explorer' which
was written at IBM and given away with their Internet Access Kit for OS/2
Warp.

-- 
ok
r.					r e d  @  b e a r s . o r g
					===========================
					[ urs longa | vita brevis ]



From musicman38 at mindspring.com  Tue Dec 29 07:22:25 1998
From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: Commodore Pet 2001
References: <199812260802.AAA04815@lists5.u.washington.edu> <3685CD3E.A61F18D4@goldrush.com>
Message-ID: <3688D790.99CB8F03@mindspring.com>

> I have some of the original Commodore graphics demos (which they sold on
> tape), there was the one with bar graphs and business stuff and another one
> with like a mouse in a cage and star wars ships (not very exciting nowadays as
> they were then), also one called mandala which is in ML and does a kalidescope effect.

One of my favorite demo programs for the Pet is a Time Clock program, it uses the graphics of
the pet and makes giant time clock in six didgets "12:34:45" .. Very simple by todays
computers but was considered very cool in 1978.. I have this on a Floppy disk from my
collection of software for the PET , I will have to transfer it to Tape to load on the old
Pet. Seemed funny to use a Pet computer to tell time with, but very cool...

> > I know it would be some time before I could own it. So now only 21 years later
> > I have one.
>
> Yeah I think that sums it up for most of us classic computerists...  (grin)
> or better yet 'I have every computer that I wanted.'

Ditto !!

I have dug out several boxes of my old computer magazines on the Pet, and found many of the
original issues of the "Commodore Pet Users Group Magazine"  Circa 1979.

Ever heard of that Magazine called "The Paper" an ARESCO Publication ?

Also dug out many of the old "Transactor" magazines a favorite of mine in the early 80's...
These are loaded with information on the Pet..

> > > Now when it powers up if it reads:
> > > *** COMMODORE BASIC ***
> > > you have the original classic (read 'bug-ridden') ROMs.if it reads:
> > > ### COMMODORE BASIC ###
> > > you have the 'upgrade' (mostly bug fixed) ROMs.

Looks like mine is the older ROM as mine also says *** COMMODORE BASIC ***

Very Cool !!!! Bugs and all....

I tried out the Cassette Drive and it has a broken belt, motors turned but pulleys did not
move, no problem tho I have several other Cassette drives, I will just plug it in the 2nd
cassette port..

Phil...




From roblwill at usaor.net  Tue Dec 29 09:56:04 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <01be3343$bd482580$909ba6d1@the-general>


>
>How is it then I got it for free off their site?  
>
Not sure.  Last time I tried to download it was about two years ago.

--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From roblwill at usaor.net  Tue Dec 29 10:01:42 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <01be3344$86b73960$909ba6d1@the-general>


>
>But *free* to download from the web. To purchase IE *all by itself* costs
>money, too. They can't print books / cd's, etc. for free.
>
Yup.  $5, I think.

>>Netscrape came with the program that I bought, and it was a stripped
version
>>that kept wanting me to sent $30 to Netscrape, and it stopped working
after
>>6 months (date stamped).
>
>Installed '98 lately?

That was the _first_ mistake...
It may be better than Win 95 (some say), but I don't like to run any OS that
crashes the demo computer at the launching of the software.  No matter how
many "revisions" it has.

>
>Can you still get it?  ---  They had a version that was supposed to run on
>Linux, too. They almost got it out - 6 months or so behind schedule, then
>they scrapped it. Pi$$ed off some users with that one... Billy-bob doesn't
>care, tho.
>
No clue.  It was back when OS/2 was one of the "good OS's that I didn't
have" - I was still running a Franklin 2000.  When I got finally
PC-compatible, I was running Win 3.1.  When I finally got OS/2, the
borrower's no where to be found.  Figures!
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From roblwill at usaor.net  Tue Dec 29 10:05:24 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <01be3345$0b1c0be0$909ba6d1@the-general>

>
>I think you're confusing it with the browser called 'Web Explorer' which
>was written at IBM and given away with their Internet Access Kit for OS/2
>Warp.
>
Nope.  It was IE.  It was back when the Internet was just starting to be a
big thing.  I think maybe 1993 or 94?  I saw it in an article in an old
computer magazine (PC-World?) article that was comparing OS/2 browsers.
There was IBM's, IE, Netscrape, and a few others.  I knew it was a while
ago, because how many articles do you see comparing OS/2 software anymore?
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318




From KFergason at aol.com  Tue Dec 29 19:23:17 1998
From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <33d21fb1.36898085@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/29/98 5:15:15 PM Pacific Standard Time,
roblwill@usaor.net writes:

> >How is it then I got it for free off their site?  
>  >
>  Not sure.  Last time I tried to download it was about two years ago.
>  
Netscape has been available for download since at least vers=2.  I don't
recall if i ever used version 1.  heck, don't even know if there was a 1.

kelly


From red at bears.org  Tue Dec 29 19:31:41 1998
From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <01be3345$0b1c0be0$909ba6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote:

> Nope.  It was IE.  It was back when the Internet was just starting to be a
> big thing.  I think maybe 1993 or 94?  I saw it in an article in an old
> computer magazine (PC-World?) article that was comparing OS/2 browsers.
> There was IBM's, IE, Netscrape, and a few others.  I knew it was a while
> ago, because how many articles do you see comparing OS/2 software anymore?

Hmm. I beta'd Warp in summer '94. I don't think Netscape was even at 1.1
then. Plus IE was released with Win95, in September 1995, and wasn't much
of a product then. I remember distinctly nobody caring about IE until 3.x

Everybody had been waiting for Netscape to release for OS/2, even after I
stopped using OS/2 at the end of 1996. Also, there was distinct resentment
on the part of loyal OS/2 users when it finally DID get released, because
Netscape was at 3.x and the OS/2 version would only be 2.02 and thus not
support Java.

-- 
ok
r.					r e d  @  b e a r s . o r g
					===========================
					[ urs longa | vita brevis ]



From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Tue Dec 29 19:25:27 1998
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: Roger Merchberger 
        "Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade" (Dec 29, 19:49)
References: <3.0.1.32.19981229194959.00971a80@mail.30below.com>
Message-ID: <9812300125.ZM2278@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Dec 29, 19:49, Roger Merchberger wrote:
> Subject: Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
> Once upon a midnight dreary, Jason Willgruber had spoken clearly:
>
> >Last time I checked on it, Netscrape Communicator was somewhere around
$45
> >in the stores,
>
> But *free* to download from the web. To purchase IE *all by itself* costs
> money, too. They can't print books / cd's, etc. for free.

> Netscape has not *always* been free. It was turned into free software in
> (IIRC) October or November of '97. Since then, if you got a stripped
> version, you *asked* for it (to save space) and all date-disabled
versions
> of the software disappeared.

It was free for educational use (including home users) since at least 1994,
when I obtained version 2.something to replace the 1.01 that was on the
machine I was using then.  IIRC, you were supposed to register it, but
there was no fee if you "signed" a declaration that you were in education.
 I remember that the download was a massive 2MB and I had to split it
across two floppies...

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York


From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Tue Dec 29 19:39:47 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <33d21fb1.36898085@aol.com> from "KFergason@aol.com" at Dec 29, 98 08:23:17 pm
Message-ID: <199812300139.RAA11558@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Tue Dec 29 19:32:55 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <199812300126.UAA00557@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA20634; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:43:33 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 29 Dec 1998 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote:
> Totally crazy designs like the IBM PC interrupt system.

Well, I've heard many complaints about it, but I don't know what's
actually wrong with it, and I doubt I would understand if you told me. But
try anyway. 
----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From gram at cnct.com  Tue Dec 29 19:44:12 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!
References: <01be3237$34718ec0$738ea6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: <3689856C.9C2DAC6@cnct.com>

Jason Willgruber wrote:

> it all typed up (three SCRIPSIT files), switch on the trusty DWP II, and
> start printing.  As the first two pages are done, I reach onto the shelf
> (above the computer) to get a paperclip to hold the whole thing together

I shouldn't say this, because there may be assassins listening.

No paperclip will ever cripple a TRS-80 Daisy Wheel Printer II unless
somebody is really trying hard -- it can't happen by accident -- hell,
it takes a Bigfoot in a bad mood with a tire iron to hurt one on
purpose.

However, if you really want to kill one (and I'd much rather be given
the option of paying shipping plus a tip first);

The original AT&T 6300 and its Olivetti equivalents uses a DB-25 to
connect to the video monitor.  It carries ?70VDC? to that monitor.  If
you use that DB-25 to attach a (IBM-parallel standard) cable to a
Daisy Wheel Printer II (a machine that will otherwise work fine after
dropping off of a freeway overpass -- I speak from personal experience)
and turn things on, neither the DWP-II or the [expendable] Olivetti
computer will ever again give proper service.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From zmerch at 30below.com  Tue Dec 29 20:23:21 1998
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: Still OT: Pentium / M$ drivel... (fairly long)
In-Reply-To: <199812291101.DAA27857@geocities.com>
References: <199812290054.AA22439@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981229212321.0093b750@mail.30below.com>

Once upon a midnight dreary, Tim Hotze had spoken clearly:

>A Pentium as in a Pentium or a PII?  If I Understand Correctly 
>(IIUC),  it's just a PII with no external casing, and either no cache 
>or 128K cache.  Even SMP is supported.  (Dual Celeron 333... 
>nice.... cheap, for a 333MHz SMP system...)

Noper... out of the box the Celery processor does *not* support SMP. Intel
*deliberately* disabled it in the design of the processor... there's a
particular pin on the Celery that says: "Nope. Sorry. Can only have one of
me." Now, if you do a websearch for prolly "+dual +celeron +modification
+SMP" on altavista then you should come up with a page (on a Japanese
server) that a person found out which traces to cut, and where to solder
wires to re-make the SMP connections to run duals... but you're (obviously)
going to void the warranty on the CPU's, etc., etc., etc.

>> The dynamics of the microprocessor market is more complex than you think.
>> If MIPS was so good it would ahve pushed out x86.  Alpha is a 64bit cpu
>> targetted at high end systems and the MicroVAX (32bit) was already well 
>> established and faster than 386/486.

I have to disagree with this, Allison, one of my points being: The value /
speed / whatever of a Microprocessor means little versus the *marketing* of
a processor / computer. The lowly Motorola 6809 at 2 Mhz outperforms a
10Mhz 80286... by far. It also *smokes* the 6502. And other than Xenix 286
(super-expensive), OS-9 is the most powerful OS available for these
processors, and at a reasonable cost (When I bought my copy - $139.)...

But how many Tandy CoCo's (1, 2, or 3) were sold in relation to Commie
64's, Atari 800's, and XT/AT's???  (Never mind that the CoCo had the
longest-running continuous production for an 8-bit home machine)... The
CoCo came in last in this particular list.

Marketing - not capability. MIPS didn't have a chance to "take over" in the
main desktop market... just be a niche market deal - like the Sparc's,
Alpha, etc.

> But MIPS are becoming common... they power the fastest of 
> Windows CE HP/C's, the ultra-fast N64 (which, BTW, only has 
> 4MB RAM but can easily outperform any PII 450 with a 90MHz 
> video card and 128MB RAM, if you look at realtime 3D).

The N64 does better 3D - because it's designed for *solely* that. Can it
run a spreadsheet? Can it run a WP? Hell, even a terminal proggie? The MIPS
means little in this - the graphics subsystem chipsets are where you get
your 3D speed. You're comparing apples to oranges there. A Maserati is
designed to go a *lot* faster than my 4-wheel-drive - but I can run over a
lot of Maserati's with my truck. (and with a top cruising speed of 115mph,
it's no slouch... ;^> )

The reason MIPS are becoming more common is because of *marketing*, not
technical savvy. My Palm III beats the tar out of any WinBlows CE machine -
Let's compare specs:

Palm III			WinBlows CE
16-Mhz 68000(dragonball)	50 / 75-Mhz MIPS (that I've seen, anyway...)
800K OS size			8 Meg OS Size (except one that made it in 4 Meg)
2Meg RAM			4 Meg RAM
1.95Meg Usable RAM		1.5Meg Usable RAM
20-80K avg. pgm. size	120-300+K avg. pgm. size
~90 hours cont. use
   on 2 AAA Batteries	Giggle. Smirk. Gasp. Battery Life?!?!?!?!?

Now, the Palm III is outselling any *individual* WinCE platform - but by
sheer numbers of companies giving (IMNSHO) way too much money to Billy-bob
Gates, the Palm is not the market leader. Flooding the market certainly has
it's advantages.

Now, to bring this (slightly) on-topic - all those assembly language skills
you learned *way back* on one of those nice, *fast* classic machines, like
an Atari ST, or early Macintosh, or Amiga (damn... *still* waiting for my
1200's) - fit very nicely to the Palm realm. What can you do on a WinBlows
machine? Not much - Billy-boy doesn't release all the OS / API information
(at least freely) so you can't program in Assy. or another
"non-M$-approved" programming language.  --- Well, not easily.

>> Allison
>Tim

Roger "Merch" Merchberger



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 29 18:35:21 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!
In-Reply-To: <199812300022.TAA04603@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@pop.cgocable.net" at Dec 29, 98 07:22:59 pm
Message-ID: 

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From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Tue Dec 29 20:45:19 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <12b5aa64.368993bf@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/29/98 8:43:40 PM EST, kurtkilg@geocities.com writes:

<< On Tue, 29 Dec 1998 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote:
 > Totally crazy designs like the IBM PC interrupt system.
 
 Well, I've heard many complaints about it, but I don't know what's
 actually wrong with it, and I doubt I would understand if you told me. But
 try anyway. 
 ---------------------------------- >>
the way i understand it is that the pc interrupt system is edge triggered. i
think an interrupt went low only momentarily and if the machine happened to
overlook that interrupt, the machine would hang. on the ps2 models, the
interrupts on that are level sensitive, meaning that an interrupt request goes
low and stays low until it's satisfied. there is much less possibility of
level sensitive interrupts going unnoticed. ps2 models can also share IRQs.


From gram at cnct.com  Tue Dec 29 21:04:08 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
References: <199812291433.JAA00174@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA08495; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:34:45 -0800 (PST) <199812292130.NAA08774@geocities.com>
Message-ID: <36899828.59BC0C57@cnct.com>

Tim Hotze wrote:
> 
> > Such as Windows 95...sorry, couldn't resist
> 
> You could just install the ultimate Service Pack for Windows...
> Linux.

If you're dual-booting, installing Linux (and LILO) will not get rid
of many (installed under DOS) boot-sector viruses.  I speak from
experience I'd prefer to have avoided, but the experience was in the
long run invaluable.  I'll never dual-boot again, in fact I'll boot
even my Linux-only systems from floppy most of the time.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Tue Dec 29 21:00:22 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
In-Reply-To: <199812300256.VAA01037@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA00309; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 18:59:53 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 29 Dec 1998 gram@cnct.com wrote:
> If you're dual-booting, installing Linux (and LILO) will not get rid
> of many (installed under DOS) boot-sector viruses.  I speak from
> experience I'd prefer to have avoided, but the experience was in the
> long run invaluable.  I'll never dual-boot again, in fact I'll boot
> even my Linux-only systems from floppy most of the time.

For one thing, I've never gotten any virus. FOr the other, can't you get
rid of boot sector virii w/FDISK /MBR? If not, what is a good way of
getting rid of them?
----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 29 20:43:22 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: PC cassette interface and ROM BASIC (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade)
In-Reply-To: <3689782E.7AE3255B@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Dec 29, 98 07:47:42 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 29 20:31:18 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!
In-Reply-To: <01be333f$7e7055c0$ca8ea6d1@the-general> from "Jason Willgruber" at Dec 29, 98 07:25:40 am
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 29 21:05:17 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To:  from "Max Eskin" at Dec 29, 98 08:32:55 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 29 21:07:25 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: HELP!!!! TRS-80 Mod III M/B NEEDED!!!!
In-Reply-To: <3689856C.9C2DAC6@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Dec 29, 98 08:44:12 pm
Message-ID: 

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From gram at cnct.com  Tue Dec 29 21:30:07 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
References: 
Message-ID: <36899E3F.51D9EF13@cnct.com>

Tony Duell wrote:

> It's not unheard-of for computer shops to re-shrink-wrap software that's
> been returned by a customer. And if that customer's PC has a virus....

Well, when I last was involved in such activities to _demonstrate_ the
software, we re-shrank packages regularly -- otherwise our support
people [well, me] couldn't learn the software enough to solve the
problems the customers _would_ have.  Farzino, no customer ever
returned software except with hardware (we were not selling toys),
and not much hardware was returned.

PC viruses were yet in the future ('88,'89 they were just appearing
rumored in the Mac and Amiga universes), the biggest media problem
around was software with installation counters.

> So it is worth virus-checking installation _floppy_ disks, just in case.
> 
> But I don't see how a CD-ROM could be infected. I've never receieved a
> commercial software product of a CD-R, either, and would be _very_
> suspicious if I did.

If the CD-ROM is mastered by an infected PC, as I recall happened
about 4-5 years back and I forget the products, as I wasn't using
them, the thing to get suspicious of is PC architecture.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From allisonp at world.std.com  Tue Dec 29 21:31:01 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <199812300331.AA19037@world.std.com>


<> >How is it then I got it for free off their site?  
<>  >
<>  Not sure.  Last time I tried to download it was about two years ago.
<>  

Message-ID: <3689A085.B5AC6EA8@cnct.com>

Tony Duell wrote:
 
> Everybody on this list is unknowledgable about something - and yes, even
> some computer.

Anybody who knew _everything_ about _every_ computer discussed on
this list would not have any reason to even lurk.  Unless it was a
perfect altruist, in which case I'd be very suspicious of any
information given.

I know _something_ about _some_ of the computers mentioned here,
although I'll be the first to admit that I'm better at history than
hardware, and my history is far from perfect.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com  Tue Dec 29 21:38:00 1998
From: todd.osborne at barnstormer-software.com (Todd Osborne)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: Q: Tandy Model 3 and 4 Displays
Message-ID: <3689A018.CA0944F8@barnstormer-software.com>

I have a Model 3 whose display has grown very dim. I also have the lead
on 4 Model 4's that I can get for a steal. I am hoping that the display
from a Model 4 could be moved to my 3. Is this possible? Are they they
same? Thanks,
-- 

--------------------------------------------------------
Todd Osborne
Senior Software Engineer
FMStrategies, Inc.
http://www.fmstrategies.com/
--------------------------------------------------------
FMStrategies, Inc: tosborne@fmstrategies.com
Internet E-Mail:   todd.osborne@barnstormer-software.com
--------------------------------------------------------
Founder of the Virtual Windows Class Library (C++)
http://www.barnstormer-software.com/vwcl/
--------------------------------------------------------
Anagrams? (http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/)
Can you figure out this one? Want the answer? E-Mail me.
COCO VERDI MOM (Hint: Think Late 1970's Computer)
--------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
2 Wrongs Don't Make a Right, But 3 Rights Make a Left!
--------------------------------------------------------


From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Tue Dec 29 21:49:33 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <199812300338.WAA01109@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA13986; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:25:51 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 29 Dec 1998 ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote:
> The PC? Well it has active high edge triggered signals. I believe 
> (although I would have to check all the details) this saves one TTL chip 
> on the PC motherboard. A chip costing <$0.50 in _1 off_. And we've had 
> the IRQ sharing problem ever since....

If I understood, this could be summed up as:
When an interrupt happens, the interrupt line is pulled low by the
interrupting device. If it's edge triggered, the CPU can't tell how many
devices are causing the interrupt and only services the first one.

And are you saying that if they were level-triggered, I could have two
devices on IRQ 7? And is it easy to design a level-triggered equivalent
to the PC on paper? Are all PS/2 s level-triggered or only the MCA ones?

----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor




From allisonp at world.std.com  Tue Dec 29 21:53:44 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: Still OT: Pentium / M$ drivel... (fairly long)
Message-ID: <199812300353.AA02058@world.std.com>

>> The dynamics of the microprocessor market is more complex than you think
<>> If MIPS was so good it would ahve pushed out x86.  Alpha is a 64bit cpu
<>> targetted at high end systems and the MicroVAX (32bit) was already well
<>> established and faster than 386/486.
<

Message-ID: <3689A8A9.13CFCC40@cnct.com>

Tony Duell wrote:

> Things resulting from the fact that my views on design are not the same
> as the designers. Things like the Apple ][ disk controller. I still don't
> like it, but I'll agree it's a somewhat clever design. It's just not how
> _I_ would have done it. The tradeoffs involved are seen differently by
> different people

The bit is how would _you_ have done it in 1975 with the parts
available then without knowing what would show up soon after.

The old saying "If I knew then what I know now ... "

Hell, how would Woz redo it knowing evolution?
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Tue Dec 29 22:18:20 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM upgrade
In-Reply-To: <199812300415.XAA01280@localhost>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 29 Dec 1998 gram@cnct.com wrote:
> Hell, how would Woz redo it knowing evolution?

*shudder*
He wouldn't. He would be running an ISP or be an 3133t \/\/4r3z d00d
or some other thing computer geeks do these days
----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From gram at cnct.com  Wed Dec 30 01:16:00 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: PC cassette interface and ROM BASIC (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade)
References: 
Message-ID: <3689D330.C47BC155@cnct.com>

Tony Duell wrote:
> 
> > > Has anyone ever seen an IBM PC without disk drives? I certainly never have.
> >
> > Yup.  Unimpressed me.  Cost a bloody fortune and wasn't as good as a
> > Radio Shack Color Computer, let alone the TRS-80 Model 2 that'd been
> 
> Yes, but few micros were as good as a CoCo, particularly if you added
> OS-9 to it. And the CoCo 3 (OK, it came out several years later) is still
> my favourite home computer of all time. The 6809 is a very nice chip.

Tell me about it.  I'm converting a Compaq luggable to an OS-9 Level2
machine (still haven't found a good colour tube for it, but even so
I'll have it going hopefully in a couple weeks) with some CoCo 3 bits
and pieces and the gutted Compaq case I found.  Been in love with OS-9
since the day I met it.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From yowza at yowza.com  Wed Dec 30 01:32:21 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: Looking for cheap Powerbook Duo parts
In-Reply-To: <3689D330.C47BC155@cnct.com>
Message-ID: 

Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy to all.

I've been assembling some random Duo parts into working Duos, but I need a
few more parts cheap.  If you don't have parts, sources for cheap parts
are also welcome.

I need:
	a couple of 2.5" SCSI drives, any capacity
	install disks for MacOS 7.5.3 or 7.5.5
	a couple of Duo keyboards
	a pair of Duo rubber side-inserts
	a few Duo RAM cards of any capacity

OK, these Duos aren't 10 years old yet (closer to 5), but they're
pretty cool, perhaps even Classic.

I'm Mac-illiterate, but I've discovered that Apple somehow embedded
product info at the board or ROM level.  If I don't have MacOS running on
one of these guys, is there a keyboard sequence that will show me this
info?  What sort of stuff is stored?  Product id?  Board rev?  Serial
number?  Is there software that will dump this info in great detail?  And,
is there enough info in there to distinguish, say, prototypes from
production runs?

-- Doug




From yowza at yowza.com  Wed Dec 30 01:49:33 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: paper -> HTML (and The First PC)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

I struggled for a bit trying to convert paper to HTML, but found it an
awkward task.  I'm sure the state of the art has advanced beyond:
	1) do a color scan to grab images
	2) clean up images
	3) resize based on guess at a good size and res for web pages
	4) scan again as B/W line art
	5) OCR
	6) clean up OCR
	7) create HTML combining OCR'd text and images

I don't much like PDF for web docs, so an HTML solution would be best.  It
looks like the "pro" version of Xerox's OCR software might automate the
task somewhat.  Any recommendations? 

In any case, here's a picture of Simon, the first personal computer from
~1950:
	http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/berkeley/simon.gif

More info will be made available as I get this scanning stuff down to a
science.

-- Doug



From marvin at rain.org  Wed Dec 30 02:07:40 1998
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: Trivia for the Day
References: 
Message-ID: <3689DF4B.C72CA0F@rain.org>

Tony Duell wrote:
> 
> Certainly on some PCBs (no idea if Tandy boards do this), the current
> flowing in some tracks (power and ground) gets them hot enought to make
> the coating wrinkle up a bit. Some boards do this even in normal
> operation (!).

The solder mask wrinkle is caused by the solder plated traces getting hot
enough to melt the solder.  The result is a wrinkled solder mask.  Almost
all boards I have seen with solder mask applied over reflowed solder,
stuffed with components, and then run through  a wave soldering machine will
show the same thing.

Trivia for the day - One of the reasons the SMOBC (Solder Mask Over Bare
Copper) process was developed was the cost of wave soldering.  I have seen
boards that were solder masked over reflowed solder that have picked up as
much as 1 pound of solder when run through the wave soldering machine (the
solder accumulates under the solder mask.)  This tends to drive up the cost
of wave soldering the boards :)!  SMOBC boards also do not wrinkle the
soldermask when run through the wave soldering machine.


From red at bears.org  Wed Dec 30 02:46:19 1998
From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Max Eskin wrote:

> And are you saying that if they were level-triggered, I could have two
> devices on IRQ 7? And is it easy to design a level-triggered equivalent
> to the PC on paper? Are all PS/2 s level-triggered or only the MCA ones?

Dunno. I know the EISA specification allows for level-triggered
interrupts, though. Some boards let you choose whether you want edge- or
level-triggered (The AHA274x, for example, will).

-- 
ok
r.					r e d  @  b e a r s . o r g
					===========================
					[ urs longa | vita brevis ]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Wed Dec 30 03:05:25 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <3689A8A9.13CFCC40@cnct.com>
Message-ID: 

On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:

> > Things resulting from the fact that my views on design are not the same
> > as the designers. Things like the Apple ][ disk controller. I still don't
> > like it, but I'll agree it's a somewhat clever design. It's just not how
> > _I_ would have done it. The tradeoffs involved are seen differently by
> > different people
> 
> The bit is how would _you_ have done it in 1975 with the parts
> available then without knowing what would show up soon after.
> 
> The old saying "If I knew then what I know now ... "
> 
> Hell, how would Woz redo it knowing evolution?

Woz was inspired by the minimalist design of the Data General Nova.  He
designed in only what was absolutely necessary.  His goal was to keep the
hardware as simple as possible.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Wed Dec 30 03:15:10 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: paper -> HTML (and The First PC)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, Doug Yowza wrote:

> I struggled for a bit trying to convert paper to HTML, but found it an
> awkward task.  I'm sure the state of the art has advanced beyond:
<...> 
> I don't much like PDF for web docs, so an HTML solution would be best.  It
> looks like the "pro" version of Xerox's OCR software might automate the
> task somewhat.  Any recommendations? 

I'm having the same trouble.  I'm using TextBridge Classic (which is a
lame way of saying "pared-down version").  It has lots of trouble just
scanning the characters as it sees them on the page and putting them in a
text file.  Instead, it tries to make some wacky sense out of columnar
text in a page and turns ASCII art graphics into garbage, throwing text
sections all over the place.  It doesn't like the zeroes in my Apple
Pascal Operating System Manual.  It inserts tabs where it should just put
spaces.  I don't see any options anywhere to fix these problems.

I'm also having trouble getting a clean scan of a black text on white
type-written page.  I'm doing it at 300dpi and the page comes out looking
like shit on the computer.  There are all sorts of spots and blotches
everywhere that are clearly not on the original, and the glass of the
scanner is crystal clear.  I don't see an easy way of cleaning the page up
with the software I'm using (PaintShop Pro 3.0, I just downloaded 4.12 but
am still getting used to it).

There was a discussion a short while ago on the techniques people were
using to successfully scan in docs.  I wish I'd saved that.

The OCR is OK when the text is just normal, and does remarkably well.  But
I need an OCR suite smarter than Xerox's TextBridge Classic.  I also need
some good post-processing software, or at least need to know how to scan a
simple black & white document without the scanner introducing blotches and
crap.  Any suggestions?

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/07/98]



From yowza at yowza.com  Wed Dec 30 03:53:34 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: paper -> HTML (and The First PC)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, Sam Ismail wrote:

> I'm also having trouble getting a clean scan of a black text on white
> type-written page.  I'm doing it at 300dpi and the page comes out looking
> like shit on the computer.  There are all sorts of spots and blotches
> everywhere that are clearly not on the original, and the glass of the
> scanner is crystal clear.  I don't see an easy way of cleaning the page up
> with the software I'm using (PaintShop Pro 3.0, I just downloaded 4.12 but
> am still getting used to it).

I'm using PSP 5.0, and the built-in filters help a bit, but it seems like
there should be a better "get rid of background noise" filter.  The
despeckle filter will help somewhat with scans of dithered material, but
to get a white background for greyscale scans, I ended up doing a flood
fill with the "tolerance" set to a suitably high value (like 60). 

-- Doug



From pechter at monmouth.com  Wed Dec 30 04:13:00 1998
From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To:  from "R. Stricklin" at "Dec 29, 98 08:31:41 pm"
Message-ID: <199812301013.FAA07318@monmouth.com>

> Everybody had been waiting for Netscape to release for OS/2, even after I
> stopped using OS/2 at the end of 1996. Also, there was distinct resentment
> on the part of loyal OS/2 users when it finally DID get released, because
> Netscape was at 3.x and the OS/2 version would only be 2.02 and thus not
> support Java.
> 
> -- 
> ok
> r.					r e d  @  b e a r s . o r g
> 					===========================
> 					[ urs longa | vita brevis ]
> 
Actually, Netscape 2.02 did support Java via the Java in OS/2 Warp 4.
Worked great with Merlin.  Netscape 2.02 was primarily supposed to go
with Warp 4 rather than Warp 3.

Anyway... Netscape 4 is out and runs nicely on Merlin as well.

Bill


From guerney at uq.net.au  Wed Dec 30 06:29:47 1998
From: guerney at uq.net.au (Phil Guerney)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: Old Microsoft MSX standard?
Message-ID: <001c01be33f0$1de0ec40$32f665cb@default>


>Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote:
>
>Well, more accurately Z80 based, I do not know of any CP/M
>implementations on MSX computers...
>

The SpectraVideo series, particularly the SVI-328, had a version of CP/M
available and lots of CP/M software (languages, Wordstar, DBase II etc) were
available from Spectravideo for this unit. The SVI-328 was not quite MSX
(but it was what Kay Nishi based the MSX design upon). The SVI-728 was a
pure MSX machine.


See http://home1.swipnet.se/~w-16418/    for more details on the
SpectraVideo including CP/M details.


Phil
Brisbane, Australia



From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Wed Dec 30 07:16:00 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
Message-ID: <80a1a96a.368a2790@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/29/98 10:05:15 PM EST, kurtkilg@geocities.com writes:

<< For one thing, I've never gotten any virus. FOr the other, can't you get
 rid of boot sector virii w/FDISK /MBR? If not, what is a good way of
 getting rid of them? >>

two notes here: 
you can use the /mbr switch, but if you are doing it off the hard drive, its
useless. of course you'd have to boot off a clean floppy. i know in the case
of pcdos7, sometimes you can run ibmavsh.exe which will immobolize some
viruses like the D3 one. in that case you can run ibmavsh, run /mbr and then
cycle the power and it's clean. in the case of monkey virus 2, if you run /mbr
you'll lose everything on the hard drive!

david


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Dec 30 10:26:38 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812292142.NAA28380@geocities.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981230102638.301fa998@intellistar.net>

At 12:14 AM 12/30/98 +0000, you wrote:
>It's not unheard-of for computer shops to re-shrink-wrap software that's
>been returned by a customer. And if that customer's PC has a virus....
>
>So it is worth virus-checking installation _floppy_ disks, just in case.
>

   Yes, and at one time (1988?) there was a virus on the OS disks that
Leading Edge supplied with their computers so even the manufacturers get
caught once in a while.  You should check EVERY disk that you get. 

    Joe




From healyzh at aracnet.com  Wed Dec 30 10:16:12 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: Looking for cheap Powerbook Duo parts
In-Reply-To:  from "Doug Yowza" at Dec 30, 98 01:32:21 am
Message-ID: <199812301616.IAA20089@shell2.aracnet.com>

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From amirault at epix.net  Wed Dec 30 10:23:25 1998
From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
References: <199812292142.NAA28380@geocities.com> <3.0.1.16.19981230102638.301fa998@intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <368A537C.B8C4A980@epix.net>

HI,
  I loaded Canon Creative 2 onto my Packard Bell Cyrix 300 and got Hare 7756
from it. Slowed this computer down to slower than my IBM PCjr. I booted from
my boot disk that I made when I first got my computer and used my Windows98
CD to run IRIS Antivirus and it cleaned the hard drive just fine.

 I sent the CD back to Canon and they gave me Canon Creative 4 free.

On the PCjr, I picked up some floppies from the Salvation Army Store in
Binghamton, NY  and ran a program and got STONED on my computer. I shut it
off and rebotted and ran my Antivirus on all the disks I have for the Jr.
This process took me about 5 hours and came up with no more virus's, boy was
I glad.
 On the PCjr, I use DOS 6.22 and MSAV. I also scan ALL disks and CD ROMs now
no matter where they are from.

John Amirault


Joe wrote:

> At 12:14 AM 12/30/98 +0000, you wrote:
> >It's not unheard-of for computer shops to re-shrink-wrap software that's
> >been returned by a customer. And if that customer's PC has a virus....
> >
> >So it is worth virus-checking installation _floppy_ disks, just in case.
> >
>
>    Yes, and at one time (1988?) there was a virus on the OS disks that
> Leading Edge supplied with their computers so even the manufacturers get
> caught once in a while.  You should check EVERY disk that you get.
>
>     Joe





From jfoust at threedee.com  Wed Dec 30 09:56:12 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: paper -> HTML
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981230095612.00fc89e0@pc>

At 01:15 AM 12/30/98 -0800, The Sam Ismail wrote:
>
>The OCR is OK when the text is just normal, and does remarkably well.  But
>I need an OCR suite smarter than Xerox's TextBridge Classic.  I also need
>some good post-processing software, or at least need to know how to scan a
>simple black & white document without the scanner introducing blotches and
>crap.  Any suggestions?

I've used Caere OmniPage in the past, and it seemed pretty good, but
I wasn't trying to scan old computer docs, just nice typewriter pages.

I'm very interested in the collective wisdom about this, so of course
it seems quite on-topic to me.  I'd like to scan the ASR-33 Teletype
manuals, which contain plenty of odd hand-set type, drawings, off-size
pages, schematics, etc.  I'd also like to restore the UCSD Pascal
manuals, of which I've heard the only electronic copies at UCSD were
lost a long time ago.

Given these problems of line art and odd character sets, I suspect
the most useful first step would be to scan all docs at a given
resolution, then store them as bitmaps in a format most easily
loaded into any present or future OCR / PDF-ish program.  Someone
mentioned the multi-page TIFF format.  As for which resolution,
I think 300 DPI might be too coarse.

I like Doug's idea of shooting for HTML.  I recall the multi-res
buttons on IBM's patent server, which allows you an easy way
to browse thumbnails, then zoom in on the desired page at various
resolutions.  Is there an off-the-shelf tool for doing this?

- John



From jfoust at threedee.com  Wed Dec 30 10:03:33 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812292142.NAA28380@geocities.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981230100333.00fcd9b0@pc>

At 12:14 AM 12/30/98 +0000, Tony Duell wrote:
>
>But I don't see how a CD-ROM could be infected. I've never receieved a 
>commercial software product of a CD-R, either, and would be _very_ 
>suspicious if I did.

It's not that uncommon, particularly in small third-party markets 
where they have more than a floppy or two of data to ship with
the product.  With the price of floppies versus the price of CD-Rs,
it makes plenty of sense.  Your point about virus-checking makes
sense regardless of the delivery media.

- John



From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com  Wed Dec 30 10:39:57 1998
From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: Zork question
Message-ID: <13415925524.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>

Can someone who's got a copy of the game (and is good enough) supply
me with a description of the Wizard of Frobozz?
-------


From ddameron at earthlink.net  Wed Dec 30 11:18:26 1998
From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: Simon, was paper -> HTML (and The First PC)
Message-ID: <199812301718.JAA17266@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

Hi Doug,
At 01:49 AM 12/30/98 -0600, you wrote:

>In any case, here's a picture of Simon, the first personal computer from
>~1950:
>	http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/berkeley/simon.gif
>
Very interesting. Are the approx. 6 rows X 20 "modules" relays? Looks like
something that could be built without too much difficulty.
I assume you have it to have made the scanned image. Have you powered it?
-Dave



From tim at thereviewguide.com  Wed Dec 30 08:01:43 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <36896C14.8DAB1A50@cnct.com>
References: <01be3206$b8a0efa0$4c8ea6d1@the-general>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981230140143.007f5dd0@mail.thereviewguide.com>

>fuck, it insists on it.  It took my wife most of an hour to _not_
>sign up for msn, gods help anybody without competent advice, who
>might have given in.

"Your strength gives you credit, but it can be made to suit the Empire."
That User Friendly (http://www.userfriendly.org) StarWars imitation really
put a new spin on things...

Tim

------------------------------------------------------*
*Ever onward, always forward.			      *
*Tim D. Hotze Panel Member, The Ultimate Web Host List*
*http://www.webhostlist.com worldsfate@geocities.com  *
------------------------------------------------------*


From tim at thereviewguide.com  Wed Dec 30 08:21:10 1998
From: tim at thereviewguide.com (Tim Hotze)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
In-Reply-To: 
References: <199812292142.NAA28380@geocities.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981230142110.007f7250@mail.thereviewguide.com>

>There is a big difference between lack of knowledge and lack of 
>intellegence, even if the current so-called educational system manages to 
>confuse them. Being intellegent includes being sensible when faced with a 
>problem/situation that you've not come up against before, being able to 
>reason things out, and being able to obtain more knowledge. And the last 
>includes asking questions - I do not, and never will, consider asking 
>questions to be a mark of cluelessness.

Yeah, I know, but there is usually a limit to what someone can/cannot
learn.  Many people's learning abilities will far outlast their lifetime...
and some just can't learn some stuff.  For example, try teaching a bird to
read.  You can't.  Try all you will.  It'll never be able to read ASCII
text.  (Though my pet blue-and-gold maccaw sure likes watching TV!)

>Everybody on this list is unknowledgable about something - and yes, even 
>some computer. 

Hehehe... yeah, but there are so many!  I'm betting that you'd be hard
pressed to say get 5 of the most knowledgeable people on this list with a
computer that they'd never heard of, using an OS similiar, but not exact,
to any OS they've seen.  (Seems that most popular OS's work in a similiar
way, such as how you can change between DIR and ls fairly easily, etc.
Sometimes not that related, but nothing's really far-out there.) 

>But equally, to be interested in classic computers at all shows (IMHO) an 
>above-average intellegence and knowledge when it comes to computers. No 
>classic that I've ever seen has a point-and-drool GUI. You are going to 

As of Jan 1, the 486 will be a classic.  Windows 2.x is a classic, Windows
3.0 will be next year... Macs have had a point-and-click (not really drool,
per se, but..) GUI for quite a while (1984.)

>have to work with command lines. To work without complete/accurate 
>manuals - you may be able to go out at buy a  for dummies book if 
> is Windows or Word or... but not if  is a PERQ or an 
>Apple ][ or an Altair or a C64 or ...

Hmm... well, the 'For Dummies' books are well intended, but I've found a
severe lack of books for the current level that I'm at.  Yes, I know that
this is a mouse, keyboard, etc.  There are lots of books like that.  No,
I'm not a seasoned veteran-programmer.  There seems to be relatively few
books inbetween.

But I get your point.


>You may not want to go as far as some of us do (re-writing processor 
>microcode, replacing hard disk heads, rebuilding SMPSUs, patching OS 
>binaries, etc, but you will certainly go a lot further than most computer 
>users.

You mean I can type?  Joy. ;-)

>OK, now how do we get the 20 most clueful and knowledgeable members of 
>this list to be walking down the same street at the same time ... ;-)

FREE APPLE I's!  GET 'EM WHILE THEY'RE HOT!  (CRAYS, PERQ'S, AND IMSAI'S
ALSO FREE, AVAILABLE ON REQUEST.)  That' outta do it.  ;-)  But it'll never
happen.

>It's not unheard-of for computer shops to re-shrink-wrap software that's
>been returned by a customer. And if that customer's PC has a virus....

Yeah, it's worth it for floppies.

>So it is worth virus-checking installation _floppy_ disks, just in case.

Well worth it.

>But I don't see how a CD-ROM could be infected. I've never receieved a 
>commercial software product of a CD-R, either, and would be _very_ 
>suspicious if I did.

Neither do I.  And it wasn't on a CD-R, and as far as this guy was
concerned, they didn't exist.

>-tony
Tim
------------------------------------------------------*
*Ever onward, always forward.			      *
*Tim D. Hotze Panel Member, The Ultimate Web Host List*
*http://www.webhostlist.com worldsfate@geocities.com  *
------------------------------------------------------*


From kurtkilg at geocities.com  Wed Dec 30 12:26:16 1998
From: kurtkilg at geocities.com (Max Eskin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
In-Reply-To: <199812301820.NAA00703@localhost> by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA04187; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:23:36 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 30 Dec 1998 tim@thereviewguide.com wrote:
> to any OS they've seen.  (Seems that most popular OS's work in a similiar
> way, such as how you can change between DIR and ls fairly easily, etc.
> Sometimes not that related, but nothing's really far-out there.) 

Yes, I've noticed that too. All variations on a theme. Except the GUIs
which are somewhat more variable, and the BASICs which often come up with
different ways of accessing drives.

----------------------------------------------------
Max Eskin | kurtkilgor@bigfoot.com | AOL: kurtkilgor



From roblwill at usaor.net  Wed Dec 30 03:13:35 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: Looking for cheap Powerbook Duo parts
Message-ID: <01be33d4$adbed280$LocalHost@THEGENERAL>

Do any of the other Mac's have that sort of info thing in the ROM?
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318


-----Original Message-----
From: Zane H. Healy 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 8:17 AM
Subject: Re: Looking for cheap Powerbook Duo parts

>Since I'm not sitting in front of one, this is all off the top of my head,
>but I do know that the info includes date of manufacture and how many hours
>it's been running.  I would assume it also has a Serial Number had Product
>ID, but can't remember.  I think the only way to get this info would be
with
>a software tool that specifically looks for it, but this requires the OS.
>I've used "TechTool" IIRC to view the data.
>
> Zane
>



From Pjoules1 at cs.com  Wed Dec 30 12:51:47 1998
From: Pjoules1 at cs.com (Pjoules1@cs.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 30/12/98 03:06:06 GMT Standard Time, kurtkilg@geocities.com
writes:

> For one thing, I've never gotten any virus. FOr the other, can't you get
>  rid of boot sector virii w/FDISK /MBR? If not, what is a good way of
>  getting rid of them?

fdisk /MBR is very dangerous unless you are absolutely sure what you are
doing.  If the machine is affected by any virus which moves or encrypts the
partition table then this method will lose you all of your data.  The same
will happen if you are using any disk remapping software such as DM to get
around size limits.

Regards
Pete


From Pjoules1 at cs.com  Wed Dec 30 12:51:49 1998
From: Pjoules1 at cs.com (Pjoules1@cs.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:36 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 30/12/98 00:30:15 GMT Standard Time,
ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes:

> But I don't see how a CD-ROM could be infected.

In the case of file viruses it only needs the CD to contain an affected file.
In the case of bootable CDs all it needs is for them to be mastered on an
infected PC.  In theory they can act just as well as vectors viruses but, of
course, it is less likely that you will get a boot sector infection from one
as I would hazard a guess that most people do not have their PC set to boot
from CD first whereas a lot of PCs are left with the floppy as the default
boot device.

Regards
Pete


From Mzthompson at aol.com  Wed Dec 30 13:07:14 1998
From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Year End Clearance
Message-ID: <65d06de0.368a79e2@aol.com>

I have decided it is time to clean out some of the computer stuff.
Following is a list of computers and components that are available.
Basically, except for the last group of DEC uVax cards & where noted
elsewhere, everything is free to those who come and pick up the items.

I basically don't want to get involved with the shipping of any large
items, such as the CPU boxes or monitors.  If you just have to have
some component that I can ship in a moderate sized box, then all I
ask is a little something to cover my time and shipping.

I live just south of Terre Haute, IN, USA.  If your interested in
anything, send me an email.

I would like to apologize for the length of this list.  I did not realize
how much stuff there was 'til I put it in a list.  I decided for now to
hold off on the Intel/PC related stuff.

Mike Thompson

----------------------------------------
Convergent Technologies
Model CR-5100-A31
Some kind of Unix box
Contains:
68000 CPU board with 64K of 8Kx8 and parallel port
Memory expansion board with 2M of 256Kx1
20 channnel RS232 board with 20 9 pin D connectors
Micropolis 1325 70mb MFM hard drive

Also have a spare 10 channnel RS232 board with 10 9 pin D connectors

I am told that this is a working machine and was being used as a
print server.

----------------------------------------
Wang components

The following are from a Wang machine, model is unknown

PM007 - PC Color Emulator board, has 15 pin D connector labeled 'Input'
and 9 pin D connector labeled 'Analog RGB'.  Board measures 8x12.

PM009 - Medium Resolution Color Graphics board, has 8 pin DIN connector
labeled 'Analog RGB' & 6 pin modular connect labeled 'Local Keyboard'
Board measures 8X12

Micropolis 1325 70mb MFM hard drive.

Condition of these items is unknown.

----------------------------------------
Motorola
Model VME/10 System
Contains:
1 ea MVME400 board
1 ea MVME201 boards
Micropolis 1304 43mb hard drive, may be bad.

Also have a monitor, but no video cable.

Believe the keyboard is around here somewhere.

Also have the following loose VME bus cards:

VME Module 01-W3471, circa 1987
contains: 68020, 68851, 4mb of 1Mx1; front panel has leds for
Fail, Halt, Run, Scon, push switches for Abort & Reset, and
a 25 pin D connector.  Have 2 of these.

MVME147SC-1. circa 1990
CPU with around 8mb of RAM

MVME931-1
This is a wire wrap prototyping board

The next card is for the VME bus but is labeled Jupiter Technologies.
I suspect it came from a UGC box.  It contains a 68000 and around
2mb of RAM, it is marked as being an 'IOP' card.

The last 2 cards were custom made by a local company and are probably
of no use to anybody.  Listed here to more or less keep track.

Condition of all this is unknown.

----------------------------------------
IBM
Model 5182
Personal Computer Color Printer
Parallel Interface, dot matrix
132 column

This works, but needs a new ribbon

----------------------------------------
Hewlett Packard
Model 2631G
132 column dot matrix printer

This has a 24 pin connector similar to the 36 pin Centronics
connector.  Does anybody know the interface on this one?

----------------------------------------
Micropolis
Model 1325 70mb hard drive

This is a loose one, and condition is unknown

----------------------------------------
DEC
MicroVax 2000

I have the case, boards and power supply.  The RD54 was snatched up
by a subscriber just recently.

Also have a spare MS400 2mb board and this is unused still in
original box.

----------------------------------------
DEC
DS200 Terminal Server - 4ea
DELNI - at least 6 ea

----------------------------------------
Apple
Macintosh II

I have 4 machines, 3 are working, one is dead.

Of the working:
2 have 1 floppy drive, 1 has 2 floppy drives
they all have 40mb hard drives.
2 have Viking video cards with a Viking Monoterm monitor (are a little dim)
1 has an Apple video card with a Apple color monitor
Have keyboards and mice for all three.
Have complete (I think) manuals and disks for each machine.
One machine has Interleaf loaded on it.

I have a couple spare video cards & an external 20mb drive.
I have 1 set of Interleaf manuals and 2 sets of disks.
I believe the loaded with version 6 of the OS.

I would like to get a little something for these.  I might be convinced
to ship components, but do not want to ship anything big, especially
the monitors.

----------------------------------------
IBM
RT Model 135, Type 6150.
It has a 5 1/4 floppy, and two hard drives (100MB & 300MB),
plus the usual video and a network card.  The monitor is a
Model/Type 5081-19, 19" color with RGB inputs.

I have a fairly complete set of manuals and disks for the machine.
The machine was working and is loaded with AIX 2.x.

I say was, as it was sitting in the garage when a tree was blown
over and crashed through the garage roof almost exactly where
the machine was.  The only damage was from water, mostly running
down through the monitor.  The CPU had some stuff on top of it
and I doubt that much if any water got into it.  I have not tested
it since then and the insurance company has settled on it.

If you want to come pick it up, fine.  I am willing to pull components
out of this and ship them.  I hate to see things like the network
card go to waste.  All I ask is a little something for my time and
trouble.

----------------------------------------
DEC

The following cards were pulled from uVax II's and all machines were working
at the time they were removed from service.  Since I am asking a little
for any card, I will guarantee them in that I will replace (where possbile)
or refund.  If your interested in multiple cards, let me know, I can
probably work out a deal.

KA630-AA / M7606 - CPU Module, MicroVax II, 4 ea $15
MS630-BB / M7608 - 4 MB Memory Module, 1 ea $10
KDA50-Q / M7164 & M7165 - SDI Disk Interface, 1 set $20
DQ256 (Dilog) - SDI Interface, 1 ea $10
TSV05 / M7196 - Tape Controller, 1 ea $10
TQK70-SA / M7559 - TK70 Tape Controller, 1 ea $10
DELNA / M7513 - Expander Module, connects ext. RD50/RX50 to controller, 3 ea
$5
TQK50 / M7546 - TK50 Tape Interface, 2 ea $10
DHV11 / M3104 - 8 Line Async Multiplexer (quad height card), 1 ea $10
DZQ11 / M3106 - 4 Line Async Multiplexer (dual height card), 2 ea $10
M9404 / M9505 - Cable Connector, 3 sets of cards plus some cables, $5

END OF LIST

--------------- --------------- --------------- ---------------
---------------


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Dec 30 15:36:05 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: HP printer interface was Re: Year End Clearance
In-Reply-To: <65d06de0.368a79e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981230153605.30179926@intellistar.net>

At 02:07 PM 12/30/98 EST, you wrote:
>----------------------------------------
>Hewlett Packard
>Model 2631G
>132 column dot matrix printer
>
>This has a 24 pin connector similar to the 36 pin Centronics
>connector.  Does anybody know the interface on this one?
>>

  Yes, It's an HP-IB interface (aka IEEE 488 or GP-IB).  HP uses this on a
LOT of their computers and test equipment.

   Joe



From eric at brouhaha.com  Wed Dec 30 14:17:44 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Still OT: Pentium / M$ drivel... (fairly long)
In-Reply-To: <199812300353.AA02058@world.std.com> (allisonp@world.std.com)
References: <199812300353.AA02058@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <19981230201744.9774.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Allison wrote:
> Like you said marketing... who outside of us remembers OS-9 and the 6809?

Speaking of which, every time I run into people from MicroWare (i.e., at
the Embedded Systems Conference) I suggest to them that they should release
the old 6809 stuff free.  Preferrably with source.  Better yet, GPL'd.

They claim that they still sell a few copies now and then to some of their
licensees.  But if it's not generating any real revenue for them, there's
no particularly good reason NOT to release it.  It's all written in 6809
assembly, so it isn't portable to the modern RISC processors and x86
processors that they support with OS-9000, OS-9/68K, and their other
current products.

Does anyone have particularly good contacts inside MicroWare to try to push
this idea?

Eric



From eric at brouhaha.com  Wed Dec 30 14:23:47 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: paper -> HTML (and The First PC)
In-Reply-To: 
	(message from Doug Yowza on Wed, 30 Dec 1998 01:49:33 -0600 (CST))
References: 
Message-ID: <19981230202347.9821.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Doug Yowza wrote:
> I don't much like PDF for web docs, so an HTML solution would be best.  It
> looks like the "pro" version of Xerox's OCR software might automate the
> task somewhat.  Any recommendations? 

I own Xerox TextBridge Pro and Caere OmniPage Pro 8.0; you're welcome to
try them out.  I haven't even gotten around to installing them yet.

Eric


From zmerch at 30below.com  Wed Dec 30 14:36:17 1998
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: On-Topic! OS-9/Microware contacts (was: Re: Still OT:
  Pentium...
In-Reply-To: <19981230201744.9774.qmail@brouhaha.com>
References: <199812300353.AA02058@world.std.com>
 <199812300353.AA02058@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981230153617.0093c360@mail.30below.com>

Once upon a midnight dreary, Eric Smith had spoken clearly:
>Allison wrote:
>> Like you said marketing... who outside of us remembers OS-9 and the 6809?

>They claim that they still sell a few copies now and then to some of their
>licensees.  But if it's not generating any real revenue for them, there's
>no particularly good reason NOT to release it.  It's all written in 6809
>assembly, so it isn't portable to the modern RISC processors and x86
>processors that they support with OS-9000, OS-9/68K, and their other
>current products.

They could also license it for hobbyist use for free (or fairly cheap) w/o
source and that would still be better than what we have now...

DEC does that with older versions of VMS, don't they? Even Sun saw the
light and non-commercial licenses of Solaris 7 are free ($10.00 shipped, on
3 CD's!)... I have it - not installed it yet, tho.

>Does anyone have particularly good contacts inside MicroWare to try to push
>this idea?

Personally, I don't... but I know you will still find a few die-hard CoCo
fans that work for MicroWare on the bit.listserv.coco newsgroup... you
might want to lurk there a while and pick up a few names...

Just a thought.

Happy New Year,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger



From yowza at yowza.com  Wed Dec 30 14:51:00 1998
From: yowza at yowza.com (Doug Yowza)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Simon, was paper -> HTML (and The First PC)
In-Reply-To: <199812301718.JAA17266@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: 

On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, dave dameron wrote:

> >	http://www.yowza.com/classiccmp/berkeley/simon.gif
> >
> Very interesting. Are the approx. 6 rows X 20 "modules" relays? Looks like
> something that could be built without too much difficulty.
> I assume you have it to have made the scanned image. Have you powered it?

I don't have one, and I don't hold out much hope of finding one.  The
scans are from a 1956 report from Edmund Berkeley on the status of
Berkeley Enterprises computer and robot products and projects.

Simon is relay-based and includes a paper tape reader.  Plans to build it
as a kit were published, but I don't have a copy yet.

-- Doug



From eric at brouhaha.com  Wed Dec 30 14:56:05 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Zork question
In-Reply-To: <13415925524.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>
References: <13415925524.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>
Message-ID: <19981230205605.9991.qmail@brouhaha.com>

> Can someone who's got a copy of the game (and is good enough) supply
> me with a description of the Wizard of Frobozz?

Zork II.

The Wizard appears at random intervals, points his wand at you, and
casts spells on you, all of which start with the letter "F":

	fall
	fantasize
	fear
	feeble
	fence
	ferment
	fierce
	filch
	fireproof
	float
	freeze
	fumble

If your lamp burns out, he may cast:

	fluoresce

And, if you try to do bad things to the princess, he will appear and cast:

	fry

Those all do fairly obvious things.  Fantasize is particularly amusing;
until it wears off you are told that you see various unusual things such
as a pot of gold, and a grue (which are never seen by the light of day).



From eric at brouhaha.com  Wed Dec 30 15:02:17 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: DEC LSI-11 WCS module (KUV11, M8018) wanted
Message-ID: <19981230210217.10041.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Does anyone have a spare DEC KUV11 writable control store module
(M8018)?  And/or the relevant documentation, software, and
diagnostics?

Thanks!
Eric


From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com  Wed Dec 30 15:27:35 1998
From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Zork question
In-Reply-To: <19981230205605.9991.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <13415977885.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>

[Nice description, but...]

That isn't what I mean.  I'm screwing with a mud, and I managed to create
a character called Frobozz.  I was just wanting the description Zork gives
if you look at him, so I could set my character similarly.
I'm surprised they validated the name, but I'm gonna go have some fun.
-------


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 30 12:49:00 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To:  from "Max Eskin" at Dec 29, 98 10:49:33 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 30 12:54:06 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <3689A8A9.13CFCC40@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Dec 29, 98 11:14:33 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 30 13:07:03 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: PC cassette interface and ROM BASIC (was Re: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade)
In-Reply-To: <3689D330.C47BC155@cnct.com> from "Ward Donald Griffiths III" at Dec 30, 98 02:16:00 am
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 30 12:39:41 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Q: Tandy Model 3 and 4 Displays
In-Reply-To: <3689A018.CA0944F8@barnstormer-software.com> from "Todd Osborne" at Dec 29, 98 10:38:00 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 30 14:15:41 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981230142110.007f7250@mail.thereviewguide.com> from "Tim Hotze" at Dec 30, 98 02:21:10 pm
Message-ID: 

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From gram at cnct.com  Wed Dec 30 17:32:37 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Q: Tandy Model 3 and 4 Displays
References: <3689A018.CA0944F8@barnstormer-software.com>
Message-ID: <368AB815.A418704C@cnct.com>

Todd Osborne wrote:
> 
> I have a Model 3 whose display has grown very dim. I also have the lead
> on 4 Model 4's that I can get for a steal. I am hoping that the display
> from a Model 4 could be moved to my 3. Is this possible? Are they they
> same? Thanks,

Whatever you want to do with your late Model 3 will work fine with
one of your Model 4s.  If you _really_ want you can transplant the
tube, but why bother?  It's the same part number.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From gram at cnct.com  Wed Dec 30 17:31:42 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
References: 
Message-ID: <368AB7DE.D6AE51F@cnct.com>

Tony Duell wrote:

> But that would mean that all (or at least all of a certain batch) of the
> the CD-ROMs would be infected. And for a major software product, the fact
> that it was infected would spread pretty fast. Heck if it was a Microsoft
> product it'd probably make the national newspapers over there (not that I
> think Microsoft products do contain viruses).

M$ products don't have to contain viruses to spread a plague -- the
vector is the disease.  (And yes, I still use Microsoft ROM BASICs
and both Tandy and SCO Xenix -- my wife is the one running Win 95,
but Eric Raymond has her considering Linux).
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From allisonp at world.std.com  Wed Dec 30 17:48:28 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <199812302348.AA28763@world.std.com>







Recently a list of Russian Radios was posted to this group.
I have been in communication with the sellers, with an interest to having
them find me Russian calculators and computers (see my page at
http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/calculator/soviet.html).  They
indicated that they were able to get just about any model that I wanted, so
I asked for the "top 4" - three of which had never been seen other than as
grainy photographs.  Within a day or so, they responded that they have the
calculators I asked for.  I have asked for more details - pictures -
photocopy - serial numbers - anything!!  No response, yet.  It will be great
if they really DO have what they say they have, but at this stage my scam
detectors are hooting really loudly.  I'd advise anyone dealing with these
people to exercise caution.  They may be genuine, but usually if something
looks too good to be true...
I'll keep the group informed, if there's any further developments.
A

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Jason Willgruber 
    To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

    Date: Thursday, December 24, 1998 10:15 AM
    Subject: Re: Old Radios


    I collect old radios, and I can definitely say differently.  Just try
    plugging in a metal-cabinet radio with a few bad tubes, turning it on,
and
    touching the case.  Also, get out of the way when a shelf collapses with
a
    52-pound short-wave receiver on it.  Other than that, you're probably
right.
    --
                     -Jason Willgruber
                   (roblwill@usaor.net)
                      ICQ#: 1730318
    

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Marty 
    To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
    
    Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 2:40 PM
    Subject: Re: Old Radios


    > Come now comrade Griffiths, an old radio never hurt anyone.
    >
    > Marty
    >
    >
    >






From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 30 17:29:07 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: On-Topic! OS-9/Microware contacts (was: Re: Still OT:
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981230153617.0093c360@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Dec 30, 98 03:36:17 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 30 18:13:55 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <199812302348.AA28763@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Dec 30, 98 06:48:28 pm
Message-ID: 

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From cfandt at netsync.net  Wed Dec 30 19:04:02 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Year End Clearance
In-Reply-To: <65d06de0.368a79e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981230194246.00ac8a30@206.231.8.2>

At 14:07 12/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I have decided it is time to clean out some of the computer stuff.

Hi Mike!  

One of my classic computer interests is VMEbus gear. I see you have some
modules. Could I obtain the ones I pointed out below?

>Also have the following loose VME bus cards:
>
>VME Module 01-W3471, circa 1987
>contains: 68020, 68851, 4mb of 1Mx1; front panel has leds for
>Fail, Halt, Run, Scon, push switches for Abort & Reset, and
>a 25 pin D connector.  Have 2 of these.

I would like one. Interesting module number. Is this 01-W3471 number on one
of the ejector levers (like  "MVME147SC-1" would be on the unit below?) Any
EPROMS from Motorola onboard?

>
>MVME147SC-1. circa 1990
>CPU with around 8mb of RAM

This one I could use as a spare for my similar model '147. I have a system
running OS-9/68k v. 2.4. Still have its Moto EPROMS? 

>
>MVME931-1
>This is a wire wrap prototyping board

Yes! I want to do some good ol' fashioned hardware hacking on my VME crate.
This would do it!

>
>The next card is for the VME bus but is labeled Jupiter Technologies.
>I suspect it came from a UGC box.  It contains a 68000 and around
>2mb of RAM, it is marked as being an 'IOP' card.

What's a 'UGC'?  

'IOP' could probably mean I/O Processor.

>
>The last 2 cards were custom made by a local company and are probably
>of no use to anybody.  Listed here to more or less keep track.

Any idea as to what their function was? Any CPU's onboard? 

>
>Condition of all this is unknown.
>
>----------------------------------------
  -- snip --
>----------------------------------------
>Hewlett Packard
>Model 2631G
>132 column dot matrix printer
>
>This has a 24 pin connector similar to the 36 pin Centronics
>connector.  Does anybody know the interface on this one?
 
It's an HPIB, aka (officially) IEEE-488.

I have two of the non-G versions (2631A). Wish I could get this but I can't
justify the shipping even if you were able to ship it. Any extra manuals
for this critter tho? 

>
>----------------------------------------
>Micropolis
>Model 1325 70mb hard drive
>
>This is a loose one, and condition is unknown
>
>----------------------------------------
>DEC
>MicroVax 2000
>
>I have the case, boards and power supply.  The RD54 was snatched up
>by a subscriber just recently.

Yeah, it was me!! Thanks again. It works okay too!

>
>Also have a spare MS400 2mb board and this is unused still in
>original box.

What's an MS400?? Just curious.

For whatever is available out of this list I will certainly at least cover
shipping costs and expenses.

Thanks Mike.  Hope you had a good Christmas. I'm setting here coughing to
death from a doggone heavy cold I picked up last week. Ugh! Shoveling snow
to get Santa to come near the roof of the house got to me I guess ;-)

Best regards,  Chris
-- --
=======================================================
Christian R. Fandt,              Electronic/Electrical Historian      
31 Houston Avenue             Phone: +716-488-1722  -Home
Jamestown, New York         email:  cfandt@netsync.net    
14701-2627   USA                       
              Member of Antique Wireless Association
              URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/
      



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Dec 30 21:16:58 1998
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: HP 2631 was Re: Year End Clearance
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981230194246.00ac8a30@206.231.8.2>
References: <65d06de0.368a79e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981230211658.3b7762f6@intellistar.net>

At 08:04 PM 12/30/98 -0500, Chris wrote:

>
>I have two of the non-G versions (2631A). Wish I could get this but I can't
>justify the shipping even if you were able to ship it. Any extra manuals
>for this critter tho? 


  Chris,

   I think I have a manual for this one.  I can make you a copy for copying
and mailing cost if you want.  FWIW the G is the graphics model, the A is
alpha numerics only. The graphics model can do bit mapped graphics.

   Joe



From cfandt at netsync.net  Wed Dec 30 19:34:24 1998
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Year End Clearance
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981230194246.00ac8a30@206.231.8.2>
References: <65d06de0.368a79e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.19981230202832.00ac97a0@206.231.8.2>

At 20:04 12/30/98 -0500, Chris Fandt wrote:
>At 14:07 12/30/98 -0500, Mike wrote:
>>I have decided it is time to clean out some of the computer stuff.
>
>Hi Mike!  
>
>One of my classic computer interests is VMEbus gear. I see you have some

Aggghhh! That reply to Mike should not have gone to the list. I got trapped
by that dumb 'reply to the list' pre-setup by the listserver again! Must be
the cold medication that caused me to loose my mind . . .  Sorry to clutter
the list any more than it is.

--Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
Member of Antique Wireless Association
        URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/


From allisonp at world.std.com  Wed Dec 30 21:55:35 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
Message-ID: <199812310355.AA15353@world.std.com>


<> Yes. The 8259 PIC (interrupt controller) is fully programmable for edge
<> and level.  It's possibel to go from edge to level on a common PC but you
<
<



I recently unearthed an acquisition from several years ago (and
added it to my home_systems web page).

I have a TC200, a handheld, battery-powered portable terminal
which appears to have been built by IXO, Inc, yet it has a
Digital logo on it (so it either was, or was going to be,
marketed by Digital).

It is powered by a 6v Litium battery, like the kind you find
in a Polaroid film pack (but they are not identical -- the
battery terminals are in different places).  It is called
a PolaPulse battery.

Does anyone know of a source for this battery nowadays?

Also, does anyone happen to have any documentation or
other information about this thing?

Thanks in advance...

					Megan Gentry
					Former RT-11 Developer

+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL   | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group |          (home):  mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation    | addresses need '@' in place of '!'  |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43   | URL:     http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | 
| Nashua, NH 03062               | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055                 |  required." - mbg                   |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+


From Pjoules1 at cs.com  Wed Dec 30 23:32:28 1998
From: Pjoules1 at cs.com (Pjoules1@cs.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
Message-ID: <9c3a969d.368b0c6c@cs.com>

In a message dated 30/12/98 21:49:06 GMT Standard Time,
ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes:

> What you're not going to get is the odd one or two CD-ROMs that are 
>  infected, unlike floppies where it could easily happen.

Agreed, apart from home produced or piarate ones which you have already
pointed out are always suspect.  IIRC there  have been rare ocasions where
floppies have been distributed with viruses in bulk, one was a batch of
preformatted ones where the master (or duplicating machine or whatever) was
infected with aa boot sector vvirus, and I belive that there has been at least
on occasion where a major software house accidentally distributed some but
that was many years ago.

Regards
Pete


From ddameron at earthlink.net  Thu Dec 31 00:01:33 1998
From: ddameron at earthlink.net (dave dameron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Looking for PolaPulse or equivalent
Message-ID: <199812310601.WAA06976@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

Hi Megan,
At 11:56 PM 12/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>I recently unearthed an acquisition from several years ago (and
>added it to my home_systems web page).
>
>I have a TC200, a handheld, battery-powered portable terminal
>which appears to have been built by IXO, Inc, yet it has a
>Digital logo on it (so it either was, or was going to be,
>marketed by Digital).
>
>It is powered by a 6v Litium battery, like the kind you find
>in a Polaroid film pack (but they are not identical -- the
>battery terminals are in different places).  It is called
>a PolaPulse battery.
>
>Does anyone know of a source for this battery nowadays?
>
Would it be this one?
http://www.polaroid.com/products/oem/battery/p100.html
-Dave



From lwalker at mail.interlog.com  Wed Dec 30 20:26:26 1998
From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
In-Reply-To: <368A537C.B8C4A980@epix.net>
Message-ID: <199812310728.CAA20147@smtp.interlog.com>

On 30 Dec 98 at 11:23, John Amirault wrote:

> HI,
>   I loaded Canon Creative 2 onto my Packard Bell Cyrix 300 and got Hare 7756
> from it. Slowed this computer down to slower than my IBM PCjr. I booted from
> my boot disk that I made when I first got my computer and used my Windows98
> CD to run IRIS Antivirus and it cleaned the hard drive just fine.
> 
>  I sent the CD back to Canon and they gave me Canon Creative 4 free.
> 
> On the PCjr, I picked up some floppies from the Salvation Army Store in
> Binghamton, NY  and ran a program and got STONED on my computer. I shut it
> off and rebotted and ran my Antivirus on all the disks I have for the Jr.
> This process took me about 5 hours and came up with no more virus's, boy was
> I glad.
>  On the PCjr, I use DOS 6.22 and MSAV. I also scan ALL disks and CD ROMs now
> no matter where they are from.
> 
> John Amirault
> 
 Beware of just using MSAV that came with 6.22. It does not pick up the newer 
virii. My PC happily reported the system virus-free but some weird behavior led
me to use F-Prot and I dicovered to my horror a virus that had infected most of 
my Dos-boxes. Since I use a lot of older systems and found proggies I had 
figured that the newer virii would be unlikely to be present and had dealt 
with older ones like the "stoned" and others. Now I always use the newest 
version of virus-checker whenever I check out a new (old)box.

ciao		larry  
lwalker@interlog.com


From Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk  Thu Dec 31 03:41:24 1998
From: Philip.Belben at PowerTech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Replies to old threads
Message-ID: <802566EB.0033B434.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk>

Hi!  I'm back!  I've just been off the list for a few weeks - first a
course, then two weeks ill - and I came into work after Christmas to find
1200 messages waiting for me from Classiccmp.

I am trying to put replies to a few older threads together in this message.

SYSTEM/23

I too have a Datamaster, and a number of the manuals.  I think these
machines ought to be kept running, so I'll provide what help I can.  The
service manuals are mainly board swappers' guides, but there is some useful
info there if you dig hard enough...

SINGLE INSTANCE MACHINES

Do I have the only Tek 4052?  I think there are at least three 4051s on the
list.

I also have an IBM 6150 but I doubt that's unique.

I don't have the only FTS Series 88 on the list - I distinctly remember
giving Tony Duell one for his 21st birthday - but I'd guess I have the only
FTS Series 86.

Oh yes.  Tony's P850.  Tony wrote:

> Mine was made in about 1971. Last time I powered it up was about 3 months
> ago, and it behaved perfectly. I've had it for about 12 years, and in
> that time it's needed the switch contacts on some of the frontpanel
> switches cleaning, and one new TTL chip in the processor. In other words
> it's pretty reliable.


And you had to re-solder some inter-board connecting wires on the core
memory modules.  IIRC these wires were little strips of springy stuff.
Boards wired together with these while lying next to each other, and then
folded over, the springy connecting wire acting as a hinge.  Unfortunately
springy wire doesn't take as well to soldering as ordinary wire...


Philip.




From Philip.Belben at pgen.com  Thu Dec 31 03:48:48 1998
From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Transformer theory (was:Re: Another ~1960 computer kit)
Message-ID: <802566EB.00375B03.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk>


Dave Dameron wrote:

> OFF topic:
> Max wrote:
> There's little need to make coils these days, and wiring electric lights
> isn't very fun when one can play around with things millions of times
more
> complex.
>
> Hey! I've wound several experimental coils this year. Did you wonder
_how_ a
> transformer works? I know the equations to design one, but am asking
> something more fundamental. The secondary winding of a transformer has
> voltage induced in it, but what couples the energy to it from the primary
> winding's magnetic field?
> (Hint: The magnetic field can be zero at the secondary)

As the list's resident electrical (as opposed to electronic) engineer, I
feel I must make a stab at answering this.  Especially since my first job
at PowerGen was research on transformers. (Not at this fundamental level
though - I was looking at fault detection systems)

As I see it, when you have a winding linked with a magnetic field, you
induce a voltage in the winding proportional to the rate of change of the
field.  If you like to visualise lines of magnetic flux, the voltage is
related to the number of flux lines that actually cut the wires of the
winding, not the flux linked with the winding at any time.

This means, among other things, that (for sinusoidal ac) the flux is zero
when the voltage is at its peak and vice versa.

The transformer, though, is not a differentiator since the magnetic field
is proportional to the integral of voltage in the primary.  That is, flux =
integral (Volts in).dt; (Volts out) = d(flux)/dt  (assume = means "is
proportional to")

Note also that the flux depends only on voltage, NOT CURRENT.  You
associate magnetic fields with currents (well, I do, anyway), and as you
increase the primary current you expect the field to increase.  But it
doesn't.  An equal and opposite effect from the secondary current exactly
balances this.

This has a number of implications that are quite important for my current
(pun not intended) job, modelling power systems.

1.  The equivalent circuit of a transformer has a branch in parallel with
the primary, the magnetising branch.  This is an inductance representing
the magnetic field (and it's in parallel, so it depends only on voltage as
above) and a resistance representing "iron losses"

2.  No transformer is perfect.  There is regulation - inductance and
resistance apparently in series with it.  The resistance represents "copper
loss" - the physical resistance of the windings.  The inductance represents
flux in each winding that _does not_  link with the other, and therefore is
not backed off by current in the other winding.  But in an electrical
system model, the simplest representation of a tranformer is a series
inductance connecting two sides of the transformer.   Ironically, this
represents physically the magnetic field that does not connect the two
sides of the transformer!

3.  For metering, protection and the rest, you see a lot of current
transformers.  One of these consists of a high current, low voltage primary
- usually a bar running through the middle of the toroidal core - and one
or more multi-turn (low current) secondaries.  The equation is simple.  The
mmf (magnetomotive force = amps * turns) of all the windings add up to zero
(equal and opposite effect of secondary current again).  Because the
measuring kit acts as an effective short circuit on the secondary - or
drops a few volts at most - the magnetising current is almost zero, and you
can thus make very accurate measurememnts.

Is this the answer you wanted?

Final note.  What do you mean by "the primary winding's magnetic field" as
distinct from that of the secondary?  To a good approximation, the magnetic
field is the same at both the primary and the secondary.  It may be close
to zero, for reasons I described.  But the difference between the mag.
field at the two windings contributes only to the equivalent series
impedance.  It is not something to look at when discussing the detailed
operation of the tranformer.

> As for wiring lights, Christmas tree light strings here are now cheap
series
> strings although the bulbs may have some wire turns wrapped around the
leads
> to prevent a open circuit if a bulb burns out. This often don't work, so
the
> entire string is usually thrown away, like many modern ASIC type computer
boards

Aargh!  I've not heard of that (throwing the whole string away) before but
I can well believe it.

Philip.







From Philip.Belben at pgen.com  Thu Dec 31 04:11:35 1998
From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: SCSI floppies
Message-ID: <802566EB.003CC2B3.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk>



Tony Duell wrote:

> I'm quite sure that things like SPARCbooks are normally considered to be
> both laptops and workstations....

Oh yes.  Obvious really.  My SPARCbook has no internal floppy drive and
communicates with an external one via the SCSI bus.  Since it is my
employer's property, not mine, I haven't dismantled it to see what's
inside, but I imagine a standard floppy drive and an interface board...

Some years ago we had a piece of data acquisition equipment called
MDAS-7000.  Originally made by Transera corp., by the time we bought one by
Kaye Instruments.  This had a 68000 CPU, a UNIX-alike in ROM (called Rnix),
and built in Tektronix BASIC.

The floppy drive on this was not connected to the CPU board.  There was a
separate board controlling it, based around an 80188 CPU, that communicated
with the CPU board via, you guessed it, the SCSI bus.

I wonder if the box still exists, and if so, if I can get my hands on it.
Another potential Single Instance machine, I reckon...


Philip.







From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Thu Dec 31 06:29:25 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: NEC CDR-84-1 SCSI Cdrom Info needed
Message-ID: <368B6E24.E8B88A6B@bigfoot.com>

I just obtained a like new CDR-84-1 SCSI cdrom, no docs as usual. I need
info on the jumper block (some may be DIP switches instead) numbered 1-6
on back as well as what speed (I'm guessing 3x) the cdrom is rated for.
If someone out there might knwo where I can get a copy of it's docs or
can scan and attach the pages to me it would be greatly appreciated.

The cdrom is going into my Dell 4066/XE server (#2 of 3) to be used on a
BBS I'm setting back up.



From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Thu Dec 31 06:54:55 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
Message-ID: <43100716.368b741f@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/31/98 0:33:13 AM EST, Pjoules1@cs.com writes:

<< Agreed, apart from home produced or piarate ones which you have already
 pointed out are always suspect.  IIRC there  have been rare ocasions where
 floppies have been distributed with viruses in bulk, one was a batch of
 preformatted ones where the master (or duplicating machine or whatever) was
 infected with aa boot sector vvirus, and I belive that there has been at
least
 on occasion where a major software house accidentally distributed some but
 that was many years ago.
  >>
i think not long ago that a commercial mac cd was shipped with a virus. can
anyone elaborate?


From pechter at monmouth.com  Thu Dec 31 06:23:04 1998
From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Looking for PolaPulse or equivalent
In-Reply-To: <199812310456.AA19262@world.std.com> from Megan at "Dec 30, 98 11:56:38 pm"
Message-ID: <199812311223.HAA07801@monmouth.com>

> 
> I recently unearthed an acquisition from several years ago (and
> added it to my home_systems web page).
> 
> I have a TC200, a handheld, battery-powered portable terminal
> which appears to have been built by IXO, Inc, yet it has a
> Digital logo on it (so it either was, or was going to be,
> marketed by Digital).
> 
> It is powered by a 6v Litium battery, like the kind you find
> in a Polaroid film pack (but they are not identical -- the
> battery terminals are in different places).  It is called
> a PolaPulse battery.
> 
> Does anyone know of a source for this battery nowadays?
> 
> Also, does anyone happen to have any documentation or
> other information about this thing?
> 
> Thanks in advance...
> 
> 					Megan Gentry
> 					Former RT-11 Developer
> 

If my memory was correct it's a portable VT100 clone.
DEC may have sold it at one time (but I don't think so).

They also may have used it as a Field Service maintenance tool on 
RA series drives... Pure speculation... but possible.

Perhaps Polaroid Corp. still makes the batteries?
Give 'em a call -- they're up your way.


Bill


From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Dec 31 08:58:40 1998
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Looking for PolaPulse or equivalent
In-Reply-To: <199812310456.AA19262@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981231085840.00ff8570@pc>

At 11:56 PM 12/30/98 -0500, Megan wrote:
>
>It is powered by a 6v Litium battery, like the kind you find
>in a Polaroid film pack (but they are not identical -- the
>battery terminals are in different places).  It is called
>a PolaPulse battery.
>Does anyone know of a source for this battery nowadays?

You mean apart from ripping them from used film packs?  :-)
They still have quite a bit of charge in them after you've
exhausted the film.

- John



From musicman38 at mindspring.com  Wed Dec 30 21:28:45 1998
From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Commodore Parts & Upgrades
References: <01BE292B.311BF180@slip-32-100-187-195.oh.us.ibm.net>
Message-ID: <368AEF6C.D01DCD12@mindspring.com>

I just came across what appears to be a very good source of Commodore Upgrades,
Parts, and add-on's.. Also Hard Drives for 64 & 128 computers..
How about supercharging your commodore 64 to 20Mhz !!!
Hang on to your wallet though .. !
Check it out..  http://www.cmdweb.com/
Phil...




From mbg at world.std.com  Thu Dec 31 09:32:05 1998
From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Looking for PolaPulse or equivalent
Message-ID: <199812311532.AA01138@world.std.com>

Thanks, I got the pointer for polaroid... I'm going to follow
up on it.  As for a vt100 clone -- 1 line of 16 characters?
not much of a terminal... but I guess enough if there isn'
t much data which has to go back and forth...

					Megan


From mbg at world.std.com  Thu Dec 31 09:32:59 1998
From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Looking for PolaPulse or equivalent
Message-ID: <199812311532.AA01740@world.std.com>

I know, but the ones in the film packs aren't compatible
with this one.  I'm going to try to contact polaroid about
it...

					Megan
D


From pb0aia at iaehv.nl  Thu Dec 31 10:41:40 1998
From: pb0aia at iaehv.nl (Kees Stravers)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
Message-ID: <199812311641.RAA10636@iaehv.IAEhv.nl>




On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:34:45 +0000, Lawrence Walker wrote:
 >On 13 Dec 98 at 23:36, Kees Stravers wrote:
 >> How about the Philips P2000 family? I have not seen messages about
 >> those machines on the list. Z80 system, 48K RAM, 16K ROM in a cart
 >> so it was easy to change programs, micro cassette recorder that was
 >> operated by the computer so no fiddling with buttons, floppy drives
 >> optional, video 40x24 color (viewdata/teletext character set) or 
 >> 80x24 monochrome. Started life as a dedicated word processor, BASIC 
 >> cart added later. 
 >> picture at http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/sroom.html

 >Hi Kees, your pages are always interesting. Haven't visited in a while.
 >Nice to see the additions.
 >You mention that the P2000 started as a dedicated WP. Could this have
 >been the Philips Micom 2000 ? If so, any other info ?

I have never heard of the Philips Micom word processor. That's not so
strange, Philips has made a lot of different computer systems, it is an
enormous task to catalogue them all. Sometimes Philips even sold the
same computer under two different names, e.g. their third XT clone was
known as the NMS9100 for the consumer market, but sold as the P3105
by a totally different section of Philips to the professional market,
and it was the exact same machine. I tried several web searches for
'Philips Micom', but all I could come up with were a couple of firms 
offering conversion services for its files, and a CV of a Canadian 
researcher who mentiones having written software for the thing.
I once saw a very old Philips wordprocessor, with a cabinet a the size 
of a cubic metre under the desk, a separate terminal for i/o and a
weird thirteen bit parallel daisywheel printer which had no smarts at all 
(the computer had to tell it how many microsteps to turn the roll and move
the head etc) but this machine used magnetic cards the size of a punched
card to save files to, not disks.

The P2000 family I was talking about has four lines that are incompatible
with each other.
- The P2000T (cassette, 40 char video) / P2000M (disk, 80 char video)
  which was the most common here in The Netherlands. They were the same
  internally but had different video. Most programs were interchangable.
  A CP/M card was available for it from the Philips computer club. Also
  a floppy disk controller for the T that was compatible with the internal
  one in the M.
- The P2000C luggable, the most advanced one, CP/M, even had a 8088 
  'CoPower' card available for it that could run MSDOS. You could attach 
  an external hard disk via a SASI interface. It could read and write the
  disk formats from all the other members, and of a lot of CP/M systems too.
- The P2000B/P2500, a CP/M disk system with 5.25i disks, monitor and disks
  in one cabinet like the P2000M, on top of a passive backplane cabinet 
  like the Northstar with everything on cards. 8i floppy controller available.
- The P5020/P5040 word processor system. The P5020 was a monster system, an
  all-in-one system with a 15 inch 36 line system, two 5.25i drives next
  to the monitor, internal card cage with passive backplane (not the same
  as the P2500). The entire thing stood on a big tilt/swivel pedestal.
  Heavy keyboard made of metal, no plastic exept for the keys. The P5040
  was a more modern version, smaller and looking like a PC with separate
  monitor and all. There was an add-on machine, called the P5010, which 
  was a keyboard with a single line lcd display and a cassette drive, which 
  could be used to enter long texts. You then transported these texts serially
  to the P5020 or P5040 for the finishing touches. Maybe this system was the 
  Micom, I don't know.
  Some bright minds in the Philips computer club made a new ROM for the
  P5010 so you could write Z80 machine code programs with it. Later there
  even was CP/M for the P5020/5040. Multiplan with 36 lines really was a
  treat.

I only have pictures of the P2000M and the P2000C on my pages. The other
systems are buried in the garage, it would take quite some digging to
photograph them. I'll go look if I have some magazine pictures of them.

Kees

-- 
Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia@iae.nl
Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - Visit VAXarchive!
http://vaxarchive.ml.org (primary) - http://www.sevensages.org/vax/ (mirror)
See my old computers at http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered



From zmerch at 30below.com  Thu Dec 31 13:09:07 1998
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Transformer theory (was:Re: Another ~1960 computer kit)
In-Reply-To: <802566EB.00375B03.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981231140907.009224a0@mail.30below.com>

Once upon a midnight dreary, Philip.Belben@pgen.com had spoken clearly:

>This means, among other things, that (for sinusoidal ac) the flux is zero
>when the voltage is at its peak and vice versa.

Which, in short, is why a transformer doesn't work with DC.

[Editor's Note: No, this little blurb is just to show I know a little about
these things (now) -- when I was young (10-11) I designed my first xformer
- right number of turns to it and everything! I hooked it to a 6V lantern
battery - and couldn't figure out why there was no voltage coming from the
secondary coils. 'Course, the Internet was unheard of by normal folk, and
we hadn't a lot of money so I had no books, save a "How it Works"
encyclopedia set that I had, that showed a beautiful breakdown of a xformer
(which I modeled mine from) - but failed to mention it needed AC to
actually work!]

Thank you for an excellent description (or should I say dissertation?? ;-)
on the whys & workings of transformers!

Happy Holidaze, and have a good niner-niner,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger



From bill at chipware.com  Thu Dec 31 14:52:02 1998
From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: 8 inch floppy notes
Message-ID: <199812312052.MAA09633@mxu3.u.washington.edu>

Using the CP/M FAQ I built a 34 to 50 pin
converter.  A couple of notes:

1) read the whole FAQ.  The wiring
   instructions in Q14 don't take into
   account the IBM-PC "floppy twist".
   Q16 gives the wiring that worked for
   me.  Spent an hour scratching my
   head on that before I read further.
   Primary indicative behavior: seeks
   with no head load, software reporting
   access attempts with no head load.

2) The Radio Shack General Purpose
   Component PC Board (Cat. No.
   276-168B) makes a great platform
   to build the converter on.  Took me
   about an hour to solder it up.

3) There seems to be a bug in 22DISK
   versions greater than 1.31.  The directory
   read code does not seem to use the
   seek delay.  Either that or it simply
   misses a head step.  It always reports
   cylinder 2 read errors.  Despite this, it
   can format, read and write just fine.  It
   just can't display directories.  Spent
   another two hours on that.  BTW older
   versions of 22DISK can be found with
   FTP searches, sorry I don't remember
   where I got 1.31 (I downloaded 5 different
   versions from different sites).

Bill Sudbrink


From bill at chipware.com  Thu Dec 31 15:15:27 1998
From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Ohio Scientific floppy progress
Message-ID: <199812312115.NAA03888@mxu2.u.washington.edu>

So I built the PC to 8 inch floppy converter and
got the software working (see other message).
I have tested four of the six drives I have and...
THEY ALL WORK!
Not only that, but they all agree with each other.
That is, a disk formatted and written on one drive
will read on any other drive.

Can I assume that this means they are all
properly aligned?  I find this hard to believe
as two of the drives were mishandled during
shipping so badly that they sheared off their
mounting bolts and a few of the components
on one of the electronics boards were
damaged (more in next message).

Finally, where is write protection enforced?
There is a signal from the drive to the controller.
Is that just for the controllers information or
does the controller enforce the protection?
If the controller or software is bad can a drive
be forced to write to a protected disk?

Bill Sudbrink



From zmerch at 30below.com  Thu Dec 31 15:42:59 1998
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: ZDTV sightings...
In-Reply-To: <199812312115.NAA03888@mxu2.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981231164259.00944ad0@mail.30below.com>

ZDTV is running a news story on donation of old equipment (right now) and -
of all things - they had a *big* table full of classic equipment! Just in
glancing, I saw 2 Tandy 100/102's, I think an Epson HX-20, and -
wherethehell'dtheygetit??? a Tandy 600! That really caught my eye.

I'd like to find out what they are doing with the machines *after* the
story...

See ya next year,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger



From bill at chipware.com  Thu Dec 31 15:36:38 1998
From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Shugart Model 801 (8 inch floppy)
Message-ID: <199812312136.NAA05401@mxu2.u.washington.edu>

I have the above drive.  It was shipped to me
bolted in an enclosure.  During shipping, it
was badly shocked, shearing off the mounting
bolts and damaging a couple of components
on the electronics board.  A couple of resistors
and caps had their leads cut.  Some creative
soldering fixed that.  One diode was smashed.
It was on of those little clear (glass?) diodes.
Are those called zeeners or something that
starts with "z"?  Anyway, I didn't have a
replacement, so I just removed the leads and
left it at that.  Later I decided to go ahead and
try the drive, and it worked.  If somebody has
the schematics, the silkscreen next to where
the diode was is "C1" (it is in one corner of the
board).  Are there often nonessential components
in older hardware?  Is it actually nonessential or
is some signal being compromised or some
other component being overstressed?

Bill Sudbrink



From roblwill at usaor.net  Thu Dec 31 06:40:10 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: ZDTV sightings...
Message-ID: <01be34ba$b48180e0$7f8ea6d1@the-general>

I've got a Tandy 600.  When I try to boot it, it gives an error message,
seeks the floppy, then shuts off.  When I restart it, it says "critical
system error", or something like that, and goes into ROM (MS-WORKS).  Then
when I try to access something, it locks.
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318


-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Merchberger 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Thursday, December 31, 1998 1:37 PM
Subject: ZDTV sightings...


>ZDTV is running a news story on donation of old equipment (right now) and -
>of all things - they had a *big* table full of classic equipment! Just in
>glancing, I saw 2 Tandy 100/102's, I think an Epson HX-20, and -
>wherethehell'dtheygetit??? a Tandy 600! That really caught my eye.
>
>I'd like to find out what they are doing with the machines *after* the
>story...
>
>See ya next year,
>Roger "Merch" Merchberger
>
>



From brett at xnet.com  Thu Dec 31 16:04:16 1998
From: brett at xnet.com (Brett Crapser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Shugart Model 801 (8 inch floppy)
In-Reply-To: <199812312136.NAA05401@mxu2.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 31 Dec 1998, Bill Sudbrink wrote:
[Snip the oops]
> One diode was smashed.
> It was on of those little clear (glass?) diodes.
> Are those called zeeners or something that
> starts with "z"?  Anyway, I didn't have a
> replacement, so I just removed the leads and
> left it at that.  Later I decided to go ahead and
> try the drive, and it worked.  If somebody has
> the schematics, the silkscreen next to where
> the diode was is "C1" (it is in one corner of the
> board).

If it has a C1 next to it you can bet it is a capacitor.
You should have rows of them on the card.

Is it is the one by the resistor and transistor?
Or the one by the two 'normal' looking capacitors on the other side?

There are way too many of them to be zener diodes.
And you should be able to pick out the 1N914 diodes.

It must be a cap as it did not affect the drive that much.

BC



From brett at xnet.com  Thu Dec 31 16:06:20 1998
From: brett at xnet.com (Brett Crapser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Ohio Scientific floppy progress
In-Reply-To: <199812312115.NAA03888@mxu2.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 31 Dec 1998, Bill Sudbrink wrote:
> Can I assume that this means they are all
> properly aligned?  I find this hard to believe
> as two of the drives were mishandled during
> shipping so badly that they sheared off their
> mounting bolts and a few of the components
> on one of the electronics boards were
> damaged (more in next message).

Why not - they one tough drive! 8-)

> Finally, where is write protection enforced?
> There is a signal from the drive to the controller.
> Is that just for the controllers information or
> does the controller enforce the protection?
> If the controller or software is bad can a drive
> be forced to write to a protected disk?

Write protection is controlled by the drive.
How ever please NEVER leave a disk i9n the drive
when you turn them off - they are not friendly.
That is one quick way to trash a disk....

BC



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 31 13:06:51 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: OT, but info needed: RAM uprade
In-Reply-To: <199812310355.AA15353@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Dec 30, 98 10:55:35 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 31 13:37:24 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: "Single instance" machines
In-Reply-To: <199812311641.RAA10636@iaehv.IAEhv.nl> from "Kees Stravers" at Dec 31, 98 05:41:40 pm
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 31 13:11:23 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Looking for PolaPulse or equivalent
In-Reply-To: <199812310456.AA19262@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Dec 30, 98 11:56:38 pm
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 31 13:14:58 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:37 2005
Subject: Replies to old threads
In-Reply-To: <802566EB.0033B434.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@PowerTech.co.uk" at Dec 31, 98 09:41:24 am
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From jrkeys at concentric.net  Thu Dec 31 16:06:49 1998
From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: Virus Checking
In-Reply-To: <43100716.368b741f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000201be3509$dd4ad7c0$68b0adce@5x86jk>

The December 1998 issue of MAC Addict was shipped with CD that had a virus
on it. It happened while they were being copied from the master. It only
works on the PowerPC Mac's the older models can run it without a problem,
also according the Mac Addict the virus expires on Dec 24th of this year.
John

> -----Original Message-----
> From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu
> [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of SUPRDAVE@aol.com
> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 1998 6:55 AM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Re: Virus Checking
>
>
> In a message dated 12/31/98 0:33:13 AM EST, Pjoules1@cs.com writes:
>
> << Agreed, apart from home produced or piarate ones which you have already
>  pointed out are always suspect.  IIRC there  have been rare
> ocasions where
>  floppies have been distributed with viruses in bulk, one was a batch of
>  preformatted ones where the master (or duplicating machine or
> whatever) was
>  infected with aa boot sector vvirus, and I belive that there has been at
> least
>  on occasion where a major software house accidentally
> distributed some but
>  that was many years ago.
>   >>
> i think not long ago that a commercial mac cd was shipped with a
> virus. can
> anyone elaborate?
>



From bill at chipware.com  Thu Dec 31 16:21:40 1998
From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: Shugart Model 801 (8 inch floppy)
Message-ID: <199812312221.OAA09031@mxu2.u.washington.edu>

> If it has a C1 next to it you can bet it is a capacitor.
> You should have rows of them on the card.

Nope, I'm sure that it was a diode.  The ends of it
were still on the leads.  There is another one next
to where it was labeled "C25".

> Is it is the one by the resistor and transistor?
> Or the one by the two 'normal' looking capacitors on the other side?

There are no transistors on the board.  The diode is in
the corner, near the power connector.

Just for reference, the main component on the board is a
40 pin IC labeled:

AMI KOREA
SHUGART
16271-0
8130B1M

There are only three caps that I see on the board.  They
are the little silver can types, no ceramics.  They are
labeled "C17", "C22" and "C26".



From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu  Thu Dec 31 16:31:23 1998
From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: PC-4 printer
Message-ID: <199812312231.OAA12466@oa.ptloma.edu>

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From bill at chipware.com  Thu Dec 31 16:29:46 1998
From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: Everybody see the Altair kit on EBay?
Message-ID: <199812312230.OAA29291@mxu1.u.washington.edu>

Partially assembled:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=52822778


From wirehead at retrocomputing.com  Thu Dec 31 16:13:50 1998
From: wirehead at retrocomputing.com (Wirehead Prime)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: ZDTV sightings...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981231164259.00944ad0@mail.30below.com>
Message-ID: 



> ZDTV is running a news story on donation of old equipment (right now) and -
> of all things - they had a *big* table full of classic equipment! Just in
> glancing, I saw 2 Tandy 100/102's, I think an Epson HX-20, and -
> wherethehell'dtheygetit??? a Tandy 600! That really caught my eye.

Hmmm...I was flipping around on cable today and saw a glimpse of a machine.
In the movie Manhattan Project (John Lithgow and some kid), toward the 
end of the movie they're sitting in the lab after the kid's assembled his 
little nuke and in the background it looked like an 11/20 or an 11/45 and 
definitely had a pair of DecTape drives on it.  Just got a glimpse though 
because I blinked.  Thought that was amusing since the film was made in the
80s.

Anthony Clifton, kc0cue



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Thu Dec 31 16:39:16 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: ZDTV sightings...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981231164259.00944ad0@mail.30below.com>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 31 Dec 1998, Roger Merchberger wrote:

> ZDTV is running a news story on donation of old equipment (right now) and -
> of all things - they had a *big* table full of classic equipment! Just in
> glancing, I saw 2 Tandy 100/102's, I think an Epson HX-20, and -
> wherethehell'dtheygetit??? a Tandy 600! That really caught my eye.

That might've been footage from VCF 2.0.  Sounds like Roger Sinasohn's
exhibit.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/27/98]



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 31 16:38:19 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: Shugart Model 801 (8 inch floppy)
In-Reply-To: <199812312136.NAA05401@mxu2.u.washington.edu> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Dec 31, 98 04:36:38 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 31 16:45:01 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: Ohio Scientific floppy progress
In-Reply-To: <199812312115.NAA03888@mxu2.u.washington.edu> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Dec 31, 98 04:15:27 pm
Message-ID: 

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From musicman38 at mindspring.com  Thu Dec 31 05:26:34 1998
From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: Osborne 01 for only $5000.00
References: <199812312230.OAA29291@mxu1.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <368B5F69.462A9401@mindspring.com>

Gads!! Check this out on eBay !!!  Ha! Ha! HeHeHe!!!

An Osborne 01 for an opening bid of only $5000.00  HeHeHe!!!
As stated in the ad it could be a "Corner Stone" of your computer
collection..

He is even generous enough to include free shipping.. HeHe!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=50980862

Funny thing there are no bids on it yet.. 

Phil..




From brett at xnet.com  Thu Dec 31 17:12:58 1998
From: brett at xnet.com (Brett Crapser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: Shugart Model 801 (8 inch floppy)
In-Reply-To: <199812312221.OAA09031@mxu2.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: 



On Thu, 31 Dec 1998, Bill Sudbrink wrote:

> > If it has a C1 next to it you can bet it is a capacitor.
> > You should have rows of them on the card.
> 
> Nope, I'm sure that it was a diode.  The ends of it
> were still on the leads.  There is another one next
> to where it was labeled "C25".
> 
> > Is it is the one by the resistor and transistor?
> > Or the one by the two 'normal' looking capacitors on the other side?
> 
> There are no transistors on the board.  The diode is in
> the corner, near the power connector.

I got one on the other side of the interface connector.  Hmmmm.
They had a LOT of mod's early on tho.

> Just for reference, the main component on the board is a
> 40 pin IC labeled:
> 
> AMI KOREA
> SHUGART
> 16271-0
> 8130B1M

Mine say the same except 8124BQG Mine is older by 6 weeks 8-)

> There are only three caps that I see on the board.  They
> are the little silver can types, no ceramics.  They are
> labeled "C17", "C22" and "C26".

Are you sure that there are not more of tyhem on your board - I count
like 10 on mine?

BC



From bill at chipware.com  Thu Dec 31 17:31:54 1998
From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: Shugart Model 801 (8 inch floppy)
Message-ID: <199812312331.PAA01122@mxu1.u.washington.edu>

> From: Tony Duell 

> 25229 : This also has the 40 pin ASIC but with a totally different 
> layout. C1 is a 0.1uF cap Near the power connector. CR1 is a 1N4148 a few

> components back from the middle of the front edge. There are 2 zeners, 
> CR8 (12V) near the head connector and CR18 (2.4V) about halfway between 
> the front edge of the board and pin 1 of the 40 pin chip

That's the one!  I suck at ASCII art so lets try text.  Looking
at the board component side towards me, 50 pin edge connector
up.  In the upper right corner is a tin can cap aligned veritically,
silk screen seems to be "C26".  To its left is the power connector.
Below it, aligned horizontally, is a clear component with bright
copper ends and fine black print which (straining my eyes) seems
to read:

104
 Z
50V

The silkscreen that seems to be associated with it is "C25".
Directly below that is where the missing component was,
also aligned horizontally.  The silkscreen that seems to be
associated with that position is "C1".  The leads that remianed
had the same bright copper ends still attached.  There were
bits of curshed clear material stuck to the board.


From roblwill at usaor.net  Thu Dec 31 08:32:20 1998
From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: Osborne 01 for only $5000.00
Message-ID: <01be34ca$5fe90f20$d88ea6d1@the-general>

I wonder if it was a mistyped $50.00....
--
                 -Jason Willgruber
               (roblwill@usaor.net)
                  ICQ#: 1730318


-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Clayton 
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers

Date: Thursday, December 31, 1998 3:11 PM
Subject: Osborne 01 for only $5000.00


>Gads!! Check this out on eBay !!!  Ha! Ha! HeHeHe!!!
>
>An Osborne 01 for an opening bid of only $5000.00  HeHeHe!!!
>As stated in the ad it could be a "Corner Stone" of your computer
>collection..
>
>He is even generous enough to include free shipping.. HeHe!!
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=50980862
>
>Funny thing there are no bids on it yet.. 
>
>Phil..
>
>
>



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 31 17:10:35 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: Shugart Model 801 (8 inch floppy)
In-Reply-To: <199812312221.OAA09031@mxu2.u.washington.edu> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Dec 31, 98 05:21:40 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 31 17:14:27 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: PC-4 printer
In-Reply-To: <199812312231.OAA12466@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Dec 31, 98 02:31:23 pm
Message-ID: 

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From pechter at monmouth.com  Thu Dec 31 18:31:23 1998
From: pechter at monmouth.com (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: ZDTV sightings...
In-Reply-To:  from Wirehead Prime at "Dec 31, 98 04:13:50 pm"
Message-ID: <199901010031.TAA09096@monmouth.com>

> 
> Hmmm...I was flipping around on cable today and saw a glimpse of a machine.
> In the movie Manhattan Project (John Lithgow and some kid), toward the 
> end of the movie they're sitting in the lab after the kid's assembled his 
> little nuke and in the background it looked like an 11/20 or an 11/45 and 
> definitely had a pair of DecTape drives on it.  Just got a glimpse though 
> because I blinked.  Thought that was amusing since the film was made in the
> 80s.
> 
> Anthony Clifton, kc0cue
> 


Hell, Princeton Plasma Physics was still using an 11/10 (or 11/05)
to measure stuff at the Tokamak in about 84 or 85.  RCA Solid State
was running an 11/20 up through about 85 as well in Somerville, NJ.

Bill


From gareth.knight2 at which.net  Tue Dec 29 17:21:21 1998
From: gareth.knight2 at which.net (Gareth Knight)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: Win95 in running very slowly shocker!
Message-ID: <000101be3529$4af5b320$6402010a@gaz>

Tim Hotze wrote:
>I agree here, too.  Windows 95 really won't like a 486/20.  Sure, in
>theory, it SHOULD boot, but your lifetime warranty on RAM might
>expire before you get to see a Start button.

Win95 OSR1 runs fine on my 486 33MHz. Well, good enough to run the
occasional game of multi-player Doom at any rate. Now if only I could work
out how it managed to upgrade itself from an SX to a DX whilst I was
installing Win95 ;)




From gareth.knight2 at which.net  Tue Dec 29 17:17:02 1998
From: gareth.knight2 at which.net (Gareth Knight)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: Pentium(TM)
Message-ID: <000001be3529$49a601a0$6402010a@gaz>

Doug Yowza
>I don't remember if Intel actually filed suit to protect "486", for
>example, but they would have had to fight standard industry practice of
>using similar part numbers to indicate similar functionality.  Something
>like "pentium" is much easier to protect, but you could probably open a
>Pentium Shoe Store and be on perfectly good legal ground.


I seem to remember a company called Gentium being forced by Intel to change
their name during 1995 as it sounded to similar to their own processor.
--
Gareth Knight
Amiga Interactive Guide | ICQ No. 24185856
   http://welcome.to/aig    | "Shine on your star"



From gram at cnct.com  Thu Dec 31 20:21:21 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: selling a blank floppy disk
References: <19990101010147.16530.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <368C3120.22B5D52F@cnct.com>

Eric Smith wrote:
> 
> For my very first eBay auction, I managed to sell a single blank floppy disk
> for $22.00:
> 
>         http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=51510929
> 
> Of course, it wasn't your average, run-of-the-mill diskette; it was
> a classic, or I wouldn't be talking about it here.  :-)

That's sick.  It's downright deth-pick-able.

> [If I hear one more person joking about partying tonight like it's 1999,
> I think I may go postal.]

As a long-time SCAdian, it's much more fun to party like it's 1499.

_Next_ year, I may as well party like it's 1899, since the next
morning a bunch of my (classic and non) computers will think that's
the year just ended.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From brett at xnet.com  Thu Dec 31 20:31:31 1998
From: brett at xnet.com (Brett Crapser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: selling a blank floppy disk
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 1 Jan 1999, Tony Duell wrote:
> And if I hear one more person who claims the Millennium is the 31/12/1999 
> - 01/01/2000 (as opposed to the correct date of 1 year later), I am 
> liable to get out a very large LART..

Tony - Shhhhh - This way we can have TWO wild party years!
Where is your sense of scope??? 8-)
I am drinking my Guiness and Baileys tonight just for you!

BC



From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Thu Dec 31 20:54:27 1998
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: That does not compute
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 12/31/98 9:42:11 PM EST, adavie@mad.scientist.com writes:

<< I wonder if there are other examples of
 ins/outs that you oldies remember and would care to share.  Things that were
 ubiquitous and no longer with us. >>

how about BBSs? they are still around, but with the net catching on and
everyone getting on it, bulletin boards are all but forgotten it seems. 


From sinasohn at ricochet.net  Thu Dec 31 21:14:04 1998
From: sinasohn at ricochet.net (Uncle Roger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: what is this? motorola alphamate
Message-ID: <3.0.16.19981229195751.0f8f655c@ricochet.net>

At 10:38 PM 12/22/98 -0600, you wrote:
> size keyboard and a 3x40 line lcd display. machine also has connections for
> rs232, telephone, and din plugs for modem and printer. machine can also run

>I tried to buy a lot of those once.  I thought they were portable
>terminals, but they turn out to be "portable paging entry terminals" used
>to send pages to pagers, I assume.



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Thu Dec 31 21:21:46 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: That does not compute
In-Reply-To: <000901be352f$a13e43e0$a4f438cb@a.davie>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 1 Jan 1999, Andrew Davie wrote:

> This custom seemed to disappear in the mid 80s.  Sometimes I get to thinking
> of the things that have changed, and when and why.  Another example that
> comes to mind - I quite clearly remember about 10 years ago thinking how
> useless the tilde (~) was on a keyboard.  Of course, now we are all
> net-bound it's used all the time.  I wonder if there are other examples of
> ins/outs that you oldies remember and would care to share.  Things that were
> ubiquitous and no longer with us.

Well, certainly the '@' symbol was entirely useless until internet e-mail.
And how many people actually use function keys any more in the age of the
GUI and mouse?

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/27/98]



From gram at cnct.com  Thu Dec 31 21:40:27 1998
From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Donald Griffiths III)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: That does not compute
References: 
Message-ID: <368C43AB.2A22613F@cnct.com>

Sam Ismail wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 1 Jan 1999, Andrew Davie wrote:
> 
> > This custom seemed to disappear in the mid 80s.  Sometimes I get to thinking
> > of the things that have changed, and when and why.  Another example that
> > comes to mind - I quite clearly remember about 10 years ago thinking how
> > useless the tilde (~) was on a keyboard.  Of course, now we are all
> > net-bound it's used all the time.  I wonder if there are other examples of
> > ins/outs that you oldies remember and would care to share.  Things that were
> > ubiquitous and no longer with us.
> 
> Well, certainly the '@' symbol was entirely useless until internet e-mail.
> And how many people actually use function keys any more in the age of the
> GUI and mouse?

Well, "PRINT @" was standard in all of the TRS-80 BASIC interpreters,
and in most other Microsoft BASICs I've used (never done VB -- is it
still there?).  And the tilde in net use is a carryover from Unix as
an abbreviation for a home directory, used it myself that way since
early Tandy Xenix days (call it 1983).  The tilde didn't exist on the
Mod 1/3 or CoCo (stock) keyboards.
-- 
Ward Griffiths  

WARNING:  The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it.


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Thu Dec 31 22:01:54 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: That does not compute
In-Reply-To: <368C43AB.2A22613F@cnct.com>
Message-ID: 

On Thu, 31 Dec 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:

> Well, "PRINT @" was standard in all of the TRS-80 BASIC interpreters,
> and in most other Microsoft BASICs I've used (never done VB -- is it
> still there?).  And the tilde in net use is a carryover from Unix as
> an abbreviation for a home directory, used it myself that way since
> early Tandy Xenix days (call it 1983).  The tilde didn't exist on the
> Mod 1/3 or CoCo (stock) keyboards.

AppleSoft didn't have a PRINT @ statement so chalk that one up to my
arrogant ignorance.  Interestingly though, Woz squeezed the '@' symbol
on to the original Apple ][ keyboard above the P key (shift-P = @).  Who
knows why.  The @ wasn't used for anything inherent in the Apple.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/27/98]



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Dec 31 22:07:44 1998
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: That does not compute
In-Reply-To: 
 
References: <000901be352f$a13e43e0$a4f438cb@a.davie>
Message-ID: 

Sam scribed:
>Well, certainly the '@' symbol was entirely useless until internet e-mail.
>And how many people actually use function keys any more in the age of the
>GUI and mouse?

The "@" symbol had at least one or two uses.

As for the function keys, until recently I think the only thing I'd ever
used them for was WordPerfect.  Now I use them all the time on VT420's, and
wish I knew how to set them on a RS/6000.  They would probably be used a
LOT more if people knew how, or if there was some nice UNIX/Mac/Windoz Apps
for setting them to do stuff (of course there probably is, but I can't
think of any).

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|               http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/             |


From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Thu Dec 31 23:20:51 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: That does not compute
In-Reply-To: <19990101042806.17146.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: 

On 1 Jan 1999, Eric Smith wrote:

> It's called a 'bit-paired' keyboard layout, and you can blame it on the
> ASR-33 Teletype.  It was much easier to build a mechanical keyboard encoder
> such that unshifted and shifted characters from the same key differed by only
> one bit.  So 'P' (0x50) is a natural character to pair with '@' (0x40).
> Similarly, the double-quote character (0x22) is the shift of the digit
> '2' (0x32), and the single-quote (0x27) is the shift of the digit '7' (0x37),
> rather than having both quotes on the key to the right of the semicolon.

Cool!  This is the sort of seemingly useless information that I really
like to learn about.  I think its actually pretty important to know why
seemingly minor things like this are the way they are.

Thanks for the info.  It makes perfect sense.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/27/98]



From dastar at ncal.verio.com  Thu Dec 31 23:29:22 1998
From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: SYM-1 single board computer
In-Reply-To: <000601be353f$6c4dc380$70f438cb@a.davie>
Message-ID: 

On Fri, 1 Jan 1999, Andrew Davie wrote:

> I am fortunate to have recentlyly added a SYM-1 to my collection.
> Could anybody with instructions/documentation for this machine please
> contact me.  I'd like to explore the possibility of purchase or trade of
> these documents, or copies.  I now have the KIM and SYM - would anybody care
> to suggest another target to aim for?  ie: What other single board computers
> from the era, with on-board keypads, would be fitting companions for the SYM
> and KIM?

The AIM-65 (single-board, full keyboard, LED display and 20-column
printer on-board), SD Systems Z-80 starter kit, Motorola MEK6800, VIM-1
(predecessor to the SYM-1).

There are many more, but you only wanted those with on-board keypads.

Sellam                                    Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always being hassled by the man.

                  Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0
                   See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
                        [Last web site update: 12/27/98]



From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Thu Dec 31 23:33:04 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: selling a blank floppy disk
References: <19990101010147.16530.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <368C5E0F.94C9C9B7@bigfoot.com>

Holy crap Eric....A friend of mine (not anymore I guess) threw out 15 of those
just last October.

Eric Smith wrote:

> For my very first eBay auction, I managed to sell a single blank floppy disk
> for $22.00:
>
>         http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=51510929
>
> Of course, it wasn't your average, run-of-the-mill diskette; it was
> a classic, or I wouldn't be talking about it here.  :-)
>
> Happy New Year!
> Eric
>
> [If I hear one more person joking about partying tonight like it's 1999,
> I think I may go postal.]
-------------- next part --------------
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From rhblake at bigfoot.com  Thu Dec 31 23:38:13 1998
From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:38 2005
Subject: Win95 in running very slowly shocker!
References: <000101be3529$4af5b320$6402010a@gaz>
Message-ID: <368C5F44.3437F796@bigfoot.com>

Gareth Knight wrote:

> Tim Hotze wrote:
> >I agree here, too.  Windows 95 really won't like a 486/20.  Sure, in
> >theory, it SHOULD boot, but your lifetime warranty on RAM might
> >expire before you get to see a Start button.
>
> Win95 OSR1 runs fine on my 486 33MHz. Well, good enough to run the
> occasional game of multi-player Doom at any rate. Now if only I could work
> out how it managed to upgrade itself from an SX to a DX whilst I was
> installing Win95 ;)

I have Win98 running with 48mb ram on a Dell 4066/XE server and it runs great
and had an AMD 386DX-40 running Win 95 OSR1 running with 16mb ram until a
while ago, no speed problems.

As for the SX to DX thing, have you added a math coprocessor? I know when I
added a 487 to my wife's P70 portable that we chaged the 386DX-20 out with a
"Make It 486" processor it went from showing 486SX in MSD to a 486DX, probably
due to the presence of the FPU.



From print4ever at micronet.net  Sun Dec  6 05:47:50 1998
From: print4ever at micronet.net (print4ever@micronet.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:41 2005
Subject: AD:Family Reunion T Shirts & More
Message-ID: <199902061416.GAA29130@mxu1.u.washington.edu>

Message sent by:  Kuppler Graphics, 32 West Main Street, Maple Shade, New Jersey, 08052,
1-800-810-4330. This is a one time mailing.  This list will NOT be sold.  All addresses 
are automatically added to our remove list.

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provide you with some great looking T Shirts for your Reunion.

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(church, school, business etc.)  

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All work is done at this location.  No middle man.  Our prices are great!

Please click reply to email us to receive more info or call 1-800-810-4330
Thanks for your interest

Bill
Kuppler Graphics
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


From gareth.knight2 at which.net  Thu Dec 17 11:21:11 1998
From: gareth.knight2 at which.net (Gareth Knight)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:41 2005
Subject: good source of obscure IBM parts?
Message-ID: <035001be2a00$a21f9d20$e5f4fea9@gaz>

R. Stricklin (kjaeros)
>For those unfamiliar with the Thinkpad Power Series line, they are IBM's
>brief foray into the RS/6000 laptop market. The 850 sports a 100 MHz PPC
>603e (not speedy) and a surprising array of multimedia capabilities
>(including NTSC video I/O), and runs AIX up to 4.1.5, or 4.2.something if
>one feels lucky.

These are possibly one of the collectable machines of the last few years
IMO. I've heard that it is even possible to run certain versions of MacOS 8
on them.
--
Gareth Knight
Amiga Interactive Guide | ICQ No. 24185856
   http://welcome.to/aig    | "Shine on your star"



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 31 18:08:40 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:41 2005
Subject: Shugart Model 801 (8 inch floppy)
In-Reply-To: <199812312331.PAA01122@mxu1.u.washington.edu> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Dec 31, 98 06:31:54 pm
Message-ID: 

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From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Thu Dec 31 18:48:32 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:41 2005
Subject: Apple 1
In-Reply-To: <01be2ff2$6d931760$f17d38cb@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au>
Message-ID: <000801be3520$74aa5c60$54f438cb@a.davie>

Aaargh the pain.
A gent I've just traded with to obtain a boxed SYM-1 casually mentions to
me...

"Ah, I'm going to miss that little board.  My one regret is never having
fired up
those ancient circuits to awaken the dormant genius within.  Thankfully, I
still
have the Apple-I board that Steve Woz gave me way back when.  I spent a bit
of
time shaking it out with him a million years ago, so at least I know that it
once worked and might still. "

Aaaarrrrgggghhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Naturally I'm throwing everything I have, daughter included, as traid bait
;)
A



From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Dec 31 19:01:47 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:41 2005
Subject: selling a blank floppy disk
Message-ID: <19990101010147.16530.qmail@brouhaha.com>

For my very first eBay auction, I managed to sell a single blank floppy disk
for $22.00:

	http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=51510929

Of course, it wasn't your average, run-of-the-mill diskette; it was
a classic, or I wouldn't be talking about it here.  :-)

Happy New Year!
Eric

[If I hear one more person joking about partying tonight like it's 1999,
I think I may go postal.]


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 31 20:17:32 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:41 2005
Subject: selling a blank floppy disk
In-Reply-To: <19990101010147.16530.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 1, 99 01:01:47 am
Message-ID: 

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From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Thu Dec 31 20:37:09 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:41 2005
Subject: That does not compute
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <000901be352f$a13e43e0$a4f438cb@a.davie>

SOmething I don't miss.
Back in the late 70s / early 80s, whenever somebody found out I was "into"
computers, they thought it quite hilarious to put in their conversation,
somewhere, the words "that does not compute" in a silly monotonic
computer-like voice.  Annoyed the hell out of me!  Was it just me this
happened to?!  ;)
This custom seemed to disappear in the mid 80s.  Sometimes I get to thinking
of the things that have changed, and when and why.  Another example that
comes to mind - I quite clearly remember about 10 years ago thinking how
useless the tilde (~) was on a keyboard.  Of course, now we are all
net-bound it's used all the time.  I wonder if there are other examples of
ins/outs that you oldies remember and would care to share.  Things that were
ubiquitous and no longer with us.
A




From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 31 21:08:10 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:41 2005
Subject: selling a blank floppy disk
In-Reply-To:  from "Brett Crapser" at Dec 31, 98 08:31:31 pm
Message-ID: 

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 31 21:53:45 1998
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:41 2005
Subject: That does not compute
In-Reply-To:  from "Sam Ismail" at Dec 31, 98 07:21:46 pm
Message-ID: 

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From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Dec 31 22:19:20 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:41 2005
Subject: selling a blank floppy disk
In-Reply-To:  (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk)
References: 
Message-ID: <19990101041920.17123.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Tony wrote about Twiggy (Lisa 1) diskettes:
> Oh right.... (Just looked). Is there a more sensible way of making that 
> sort of media should I ever manage to obtain a machine that uses it?

Before I acquired any "real" Twiggy diskettes, I hand-made a few by
cutting up the jackets of standard 1.2M high-density floppies (which weren't
readily available when the Lisa 1 was current in 1983; they became common
sometime after the introduction of the IBM PC-AT in 1984).

Recently I realized that I don't know whether the 1.2M media is actually
appropriate (although it does seem to work).  In order to fit 871K on a
double-sided diskette, the Twiggy uses a 62.5 TPI track pitch, rather than
the standard 40 tracks at 48 TPI or 80 tracks at 96 TPI.  Since a common
format for a DSDD (not high-density) floppy gets around 720K, and a DSHD
gets 1.2M, the bit density may be closer to that of the DD drive.

But it's hard to say, since the Twiggy uses GCR at a variable rotation
rate.  I need to get the specs on a standard 5.25 inch diskette, such as
the radius of the innermost and outermost tracks, in order to work it out.

I'm guessing that the reason for 62.5 TPI may have been that they may have
been able to do that with the standard heads that were intended for 48 TPI
drives.

More information on the Twiggy drives is on my web page:

	http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/lisa/twiggy.html

> And if I hear one more person who claims the Millennium is the 31/12/1999 
> - 01/01/2000 (as opposed to the correct date of 1 year later), I am 
> liable to get out a very large LART..

I saw a letter to the editor of PC magazine (US edition) sometime within
the past year.  The writer claimed that the idea that the millenium would
end at the end of 2000 was stupid; I don't recall exactly what he said about
it, but it was something to the effect that it was OBVIOUS that the millenium
ended at the end of 1999, and that 2000 began a new millenium.

That's not the interesting part.  We hear about bozos like that all the time.

He went on to "prove" that he was right.

He explained that if you are counting coins, that your 100th penny was
part of your first dollar.

Obviously he didn't actually think about the relationship very hard.

Your 1st penny is part of your first dollar, as is the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, [...],
98th, 99th, and 100th.  Your 101st penny is the first penny of your second
dollar.  [Just as the 101st year was the start of the second century, etc.]

I was just about rolling on the floor when I read this "proof" of his point.
If it had been UseNet, I would have assumed that it was a troll.

A lot of people gripe about the lack of a year zero.

I try to explain to people that the year numbers are ordinal numbers, not
cardinal numbers, which usually gets blank stares.  So I then explain that
A.D. years are numbered as the first year after the [whatever you call the
divider between B.C. and A.D. dates], the second year after, etc., and that
the B.C. years are numbered as the first year before, second year before,
etc.:

                               baseline
                                 event
                                   |
                                   |
<------|------|------|------|------|------|------|------|------|------|----->
 fifth |fourth|third |second|first |first |second|third |fourth|fifth |sixth
 year  | year | year | year | year | year | year | year | year | year | year
 B.C.  | B.C. | B.C. | B.C. | B.C. | A.D. | A.D. | A.D. | A.D. | A.D. | A.D.
                                   |

After seeing it presented this way (usually wider so I can mark the first
and second decade), people that aren't completely brain damaged will usually
concede that this makes some sense, even if they won't concede that it is
"correct".  The rest of the people aren't even worth arguing with.

Cheers,
Eric


From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Dec 31 22:28:06 1998
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:41 2005
Subject: That does not compute
In-Reply-To: 
	(message from Sam Ismail on Thu, 31 Dec 1998 20:01:54 -0800 (PST))
References: 
Message-ID: <19990101042806.17146.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Sam wrote:
> Interestingly though, Woz squeezed the '@' symbol
> on to the original Apple ][ keyboard above the P key (shift-P = @).  Who
> knows why.  The @ wasn't used for anything inherent in the Apple.

This wasn't so much a matter of how Woz wanted it, but how the standard
keyboard encoder chips of the time (GI AY-5-2376, AY-5-3600) were
programmed.

It's called a 'bit-paired' keyboard layout, and you can blame it on the
ASR-33 Teletype.  It was much easier to build a mechanical keyboard encoder
such that unshifted and shifted characters from the same key differed by only
one bit.  So 'P' (0x50) is a natural character to pair with '@' (0x40).
Similarly, the double-quote character (0x22) is the shift of the digit
'2' (0x32), and the single-quote (0x27) is the shift of the digit '7' (0x37),
rather than having both quotes on the key to the right of the semicolon.

The square brackets and backslash are shift-K through shift-M for the same
reason.

By the time of the MOS keyboard encoder chips, the bit patterns could be
set arbitrarily in the ROM, but the standard versions were deliberately
programmed to match the Teletype.  Had Apple wanted to spend the money,
they certainly could have gotten a different keyboard layout, but in late
'76 or early '77 they probably couldn't justify the expense.  And back
then people considered themselves lucky to get a keyboard at all.

Eric


From adavie at mad.scientist.com  Thu Dec 31 22:30:12 1998
From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:41 2005
Subject: SYM-1 single board computer
In-Reply-To: <19990101041920.17123.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <000601be353f$6c4dc380$70f438cb@a.davie>

I am fortunate to have recentlyly added a SYM-1 to my collection.
Could anybody with instructions/documentation for this machine please
contact me.  I'd like to explore the possibility of purchase or trade of
these documents, or copies.  I now have the KIM and SYM - would anybody care
to suggest another target to aim for?  ie: What other single board computers
from the era, with on-board keypads, would be fitting companions for the SYM
and KIM?
Thanks
A




From jhfine at idirect.com  Thu Dec 31 23:47:35 1998
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:39:41 2005
Subject: RT-11 Crashes During UNLOAD
References: <3689C2E5.2CAEE514@idirect.com> <368A9072.2055AF66@vms.cis.pitt.edu> <368B091E.151DFB48@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <368C6177.B2ABC794@idirect.com>

Before I go into the detail, let me first say that this bug likely
is as old as V5.5 (I only have looked at the V5.6 code
on a friend's system) which is when extended device drivers
were first introduced.  So, we can say that the bug is about
10 years old and qualifies for this list since V5.5 of RT-11
was released in 1989.

The bug in RT-11 occurs when RT-11 has had a SYSGEN to allow
extended device drivers and a device driver which is extended
(allows more than 8 devices - in my case, I was using a DU:
MSCP device driver which allowed 64 partitions).  In a test
case, the following sequence produces a crash:
SRUN  KEX.SAV/LEVEL:n/NAME:KEXn    for  n  =  1 => 6
after each do a CTRL/B to return to the background
Then do:
ABORT  KEXn                        for n   =  1 => 6
UNLOAD  KEXn                       for n   =  1 => 6
I tried this under RT11XM on V5.6 with an RL02 being
the boot device and DU: being auto-installed and not
referenced the whole time.  In the actual situation,
DU: was being referenced on a magneto optical disk
drive to obtain specified files, but the DU: device
driver was not LOADed since there was insufficient
space left in low memory.  So, although there are
probably a number of work arounds, the real problem
is that UNLOAD has a bug and does not work correctly
in these circumstances.

UNLOAD  in KMOVLY  has a bug, as far as I can understand.
In fact, possibly more than one.  But, for now, just one that I can
handle.  It would seem, in addition, that co-ordination between
different portions of the monitor may not have been done very
successfully since the USR does have the correct code to handle
the situation (a  "Beq"  instruction) while  UNLOAD  seems to
want to ignore the problem.  Of course, if the USR had not
handled the problem correctly, there are likely going to be many
more occasions when the bug would have occurred, so in the
USR it was caught and the code is correct.

The exact description of the bug and owner tables may not be
correct.  If so, please refer to the SSM.  But the essential nature
of the bug is, I believe, correctly described.

THE  PROBLEM, from what I can understand, is that in UNLOAD,
a system job  MAY  "own"  a specific device (done via a LOAD
command).  There is a two word owner table entry for each device
which has 4 bits allowed for each of the possible 8 drives normally
associated (DU0:  =>  DU7:) with each device driver.  When a
SYSGEN is done which includes extended device drivers, that
owner table entry of two words is too small and is used to "point"
to a 16 word (maximum size) table within the device driver  ONLY
when the device driver is  LOADed  (I presume that a .FETCH may
also allocate the same 16 words, but they would not be used).  SO
IF  THE  DEVICE  DRIVER  IS  INSTALLed,  BUT  NOT  LOADed,
the two word owner table entry can't "point" anywhere and the pointer
word is set at a default of zero.  In the USR, when that word is picked
up, a "Beq" is used to detect that the device driver has not yet been
LOADed and no owner specific code is executed.   BUT,  UNLOAD
in  KMOVLY  does not have that instruction ("Beq") and merrily goes
and assumes that the extended device driver owner table entry (in the
case of an extended device driver SYSGENed system  PLUS  an
actual extended device driver such as DU:) is at the location starting
at zero.  In the process of disconnecting the system job from a device
driver, the first 16 words in low memory are assumed to contain the
owner table entry  AND  the 8 vectors there (00  =>  34 -  which
obviously includes the EMT vector) can be "MODIFIED".  Which
results in crashes in RT-11.  If anyone is truly interested in this bug,
but does not understand what I have stated - the explanation I
have given is only a small portion of all the detail, please inquire
further.

Since this bug has not been encountered before - or if anyone has
but was unable to track it down - then likely the situation does not
occur very often.  When  DU:  is resident, obviously DU: has been
LOADed.  But I suspect that an extended LD: which is not LOADed
could also cause the same problem.  The simple solution that I was
told about a number of years ago (when I had not yet been informed
that it was UNLOAD which was causing the problem) is to not
do the UNLOAD, but to instead do a BOOT which, of course,
does an UNLOAD of everything.

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine